NWT Dishonesty

[Krusader]

The Jehovah's Witnesses use a Bible only recognized by the Watchtower Society, due to the fact that the editions used by Christians totally refute many Watchtower doctrines. Thus, the Society published its own Bible, incorporating into it many of the false doctrines taught by the Society.

One of the most glaring errors in the New World Translation is the way the Society has tampered with the Greek word "proskuneo," which is translated as "worship" when applied to Jehova 22 times in the NWT.

The same word, proskuneo, is translated as "obeisance," "reverence," and "homage," when the word is applied to Christ.

Why has the Society misrepresented to word "proskuneo" in relationship to Jesus? It is solely due to their Arian doctrine that Jesus is a secondary god and a created spirit creature.

There are many other dishonest, biased translations in the NWT - and I've always felt that the NWT is like spiritual rat poison!

[furay]

There are many other dishonest, biased translations in the NWT - and I've always felt that the NWT is like spiritual rat poison!

Agreed. Someone once said it is a corruption of scriptures, rather than a translation. I think that really says it all.

[barryrob]

Agreed. Someone once said it is a corruption of scriptures, rather than a translation. I think that really says it all.
The above sound familiar:-

These were Bible translations that provoked great controversy.

(1) Produced by unknown and unnamed men: no hint of their scholastic qualifications, or their method of translation. Only sketchy details were known: they belonged to the same religion and shared the same view of God and of Scripture.
Welcomed and used by one section of the religious community it provoked outrage in another section, who disliked the way that it could be used "against" them and their beliefs: they retreated to their own versions of the Bible, decrying the other and seeking to deprive it of all authority. For the most part, not being learned in the original languages of the Bible, the first group were not able to meet the other group on the ground that they now took.


(2) "'let him who would challenge aught in this translation ask the Jews.' Because of his acceptance of the Hebrew text in the form which the Jews regard as correct, his version had, at first, a largely hostile reception; but it won its way"


These stories, although somewhat familiar to twentieth century readers, is actually the story of, firstly, the Greek Septuagint as contained in Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton's introduction to his famous translation, and secondly, the Latin Vulgate produced by St. Jerome as used by the Catholic Church for hundreds of years.



The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, although an important and widely read Bible translation, could not claim to be as important as the Greek Septuagint, the Bible of Jesus and the Apostles, quoted often in the text of the Christian Greek Scriptures or the Latin Vulgate used by Catholics world-wide.

But then we have:-

"Jehovah's Witnesses: NWT, which is certainly not 'filled with the heretical doctrines of this cult' [Fee &Stuart, p.41] even though a few aberrations can be found."-'How to Choose Your Bible Wisely' by Alan S. Duthie, page 30.

And a few thoughts on what the word worship can mean:-


"worship —n. 1 a homage or service to a deity. b acts, rites, or ceremonies of this. 2 adoration, devotion^. 3 (Worship) (prec. by His, Her, Your) forms of description or address for a mayor, certain magistrates, etc. —v. (-pp-; US -p-) 1 adore as divine; honour with religious rites. 2 idolize or regard with adoration. 3 attend public worship. 4 be full of adoration. worshipper n. [Old English: related to *worth, *-ship]."-'Oxford Dictionary'

^This form of "worship" can be done towards Humans & Christ but it differs from No. 1.











"Worship (arch.) good name, credit, dignity, importance, respect shown OE.; veneration of a power held divine XIII. OE. weor pscipe, wurp-, wyrp, f. weorp WORTH +-scipe -SHIP. Hence vb. XII. ME worpshipie."-The Oxford Dictionary of English Etmology






So you see worship according to some of it's meaning can be given to Jesus Christ but this does not make him God!

Barryrob

[furay]

To compare the New World Translation with the Septuagint is in the least intellectually dishonest and at the worst heretical. You are walking a thin line, my friend. I know that there is no way for me to convince you of the faults of the NWT or on a greater scale the faults of the Watchtower Society. I know this
because my beloved Mother is a Jehovah's Witness and she has been a member since 1987. My experience with JW's shows me that they are (as a whole) incapable of reasoning after they have been programmed by the Organization. So instead of trying to win your mind, I will simply pray to Christ my God that he will turn your heart (and the hearts of others like you) towards the truth. For in God all things are possible. God Bless you, Barryrob.

[barryrob]

To compare the New World Translation with the Septuagint is in the least intellectually dishonest and at the worst heretical. You are walking a thin line, my friend. I know that there is no way for me to convince you of the faults of the NWT or on a greater scale the faults of the Watchtower Society. I know this
because my beloved Mother is a Jehovah's Witness and she has been a member since 1987. My experience with JW's shows me that they are (as a whole) incapable of reasoning after they have been programmed by the Organization. So instead of trying to win your mind, I will simply pray to Christ my God that he will turn your heart (and the hearts of others like you) towards the truth. For in God all things are possible. God Bless you, Barryrob. Sounds like a bit of a cop out to me.

When you obey Jesus you stick to what he says or you are not a Christian, so it always the same, that is one thing that shows we have the only viable Global brotherhood as we all do as each other as we all follow Jesus, that is what make us so successful and invincible as a Christian organisation.

Give my Love to your Mom (John 13:34-35).

Barryrob


Quotes of copyrighted material without proper source citations are not allowed

[Krusader]

The above sound familiar:-

These were Bible translations that provoked great controversy.

(1) Produced by unknown and unnamed men: no hint of their scholastic qualifications, or their method of translation. Only sketchy details were known: they belonged to the same religion and shared the same view of God and of Scripture.
Welcomed and used by one section of the religious community it provoked outrage in another section, who disliked the way that it could be used "against" them and their beliefs: they retreated to their own versions of the Bible, decrying the other and seeking to deprive it of all authority. For the most part, not being learned in the original languages of the Bible, the first group were not able to meet the other group on the ground that they now took.


(2) "'let him who would challenge aught in this translation ask the Jews.' Because of his acceptance of the Hebrew text in the form which the Jews regard as correct, his version had, at first, a largely hostile reception; but it won its way"


These stories, although somewhat familiar to twentieth century readers, is actually the story of, firstly, the Greek Septuagint as contained in Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton's introduction to his famous translation, and secondly, the Latin Vulgate produced by St. Jerome as used by the Catholic Church for hundreds of years.



The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, although an important and widely read Bible translation, could not claim to be as important as the Greek Septuagint, the Bible of Jesus and the Apostles, quoted often in the text of the Christian Greek Scriptures or the Latin Vulgate used by Catholics world-wide.

But then we have:-

"Jehovah's Witnesses: NWT, which is certainly not 'filled with the heretical doctrines of this cult' [Fee &Stuart, p.41] even though a few aberrations can be found."-'How to Choose Your Bible Wisely' by Alan S. Duthie, page 30.

And a few thoughts on what the word worship can mean:-


"worship —n. 1 a homage or service to a deity. b acts, rites, or ceremonies of this. 2 adoration, devotion^. 3 (Worship) (prec. by His, Her, Your) forms of description or address for a mayor, certain magistrates, etc. —v. (-pp-; US -p-) 1 adore as divine; honour with religious rites. 2 idolize or regard with adoration. 3 attend public worship. 4 be full of adoration. worshipper n. [Old English: related to *worth, *-ship]."-'Oxford Dictionary'

^This form of "worship" can be done towards Humans & Christ but it differs from No. 1.



















"Worship (arch.) good name, credit, dignity, importance, respect shown OE.; veneration of a power held divine XIII. OE. weor pscipe, wurp-, wyrp, f. weorp WORTH +-scipe -SHIP. Hence vb. XII. ME worpshipie."-The Oxford Dictionary of English Etmology










So you see worship according to some of it's meaning can be given to Jesus Christ but this does not make him God!

Barryrob
Barry Rob, since Christians are to worship none but God (and Jesus explicitly stated this when Satan tempted Him), then are you saying that Jesus Christ is God by admiting that He can be worshipped?

Furthermore, please post the members of the NWT Translating Committee and their credentials in ancient languages.

[Timothy Leary]

Agreed. Someone once said it is a corruption of scriptures, rather than a translation. I think that really says it all.

May be true, but the JW's aren't the only ones guilty.

[Krusader]

May be true, but the JW's aren't the only ones guilty.
The NWT has deliberate distortions of the Greek and Hebrew. Watchtower doctrines are so far outside the pale of Christianity that they needed their very own "bible," and thus the NWT was born.

[furay]

May be true, but the JW's aren't the only ones guilty. I never inferred that they were.

[kiwimac]

I have heard mixed reviews of the NWT. Some scholars have opposed it due to its anti-trinitarian bias and use of Jehovah, some others have said that it really not too bad a translation for all that. Others simply don't care. :D

Kiwimac

[furay]

I have heard mixed reviews of the NWT. Some scholars have opposed it due to its anti-trinitarian bias and use of Jehovah, some others have said that it really not too bad a translation for all that. Others simply don't care. :D

Kiwimac
My suggestion (not that you asked for it :tongue:) would be to procure a copy of the New World Translation so you can read for yourself the butchering they have done to the text. I must have at least 5 copies (probably a lot more) and tons of JW texts on hand so I can easily judge their writings for myself.

[kiwimac]

Yah, I have 4 copies of the same, including the early versions, "a translation of the Hebrew...." I disagree generally with JW theology but I suppose I am in that 'don't really care' category, I mentioned above.

Kiwimac

[furay]

Yah, I have 4 copies of the same, including the early versions, "a translation of the Hebrew...." I disagree generally with JW theology but I suppose I am in that 'don't really care' category, I mentioned above.

Kiwimac
How foolish of me! Somehow when I read your post I naturally assumed that you didn't have any copies of the NWT Bible. I don't know why I jumped to that conclusion. Thanks for clearing things up. :smile:

[Timothy Leary]

The NWT has deliberate distortions of the Greek and Hebrew.

No offense, but I've heard the same said from apologists concerning any religous sect they oppose. Judaism vs Christianity, Christianity vs Mormonism, Islam vs Christianity, etc.

Other than their use of the tettragrammaton in the NT, what do you consider a "distortion"?

[Sparko]

They ignore the original language (especially Greek) and translate in order to promote their doctrines.

John 1:1 is a good example. They insert the word 'a' before god, implying the word was a god (another god) when all greek experts say the translation should read just "God" as in the Word was God.

they insert the word "other" in
NIV
Colossians 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

NWT:
because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

These are just two examples.

[Krusader]

They ignore the original language (especially Greek) and translate in order to promote their doctrines.

John 1:1 is a good example. They insert the word 'a' before god, implying the word was a god (another god) when all greek experts say the translation should read just "God" as in the Word was God.

they insert the word "other" in
NIV
Colossians 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=1&verse=16&version=31&context=verse)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

NWT:
because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

These are just two examples.
Quite correct, John. Let's also remember that the JWs consider Jesus to be an archangel. Is there anywhere in Scripture where an angel (arch or otherwise) is referred to as "a god," besides Satan being called "the god of this world," in 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

In the Greek in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou," translated: "The Lord of me, and the God of me." If Jesus was not God, but some type of lessor being, then should not have Jesus have corrected Thomas at once? But He did not. To do so would have been dishonest. Nevertheless, the JWs will say that Thomas was so stunned by the Lord's appearance, that he "swore." How insance - would the devout Thomas, a good Jew, call a man God unless he had the revelation that Jesus was God?

[Krusader]

Ignore extra "have" and correct insance to insane. Sorry!

[Krusader]

No offense, but I've heard the same said from apologists concerning any religous sect they oppose. Judaism vs Christianity, Christianity vs Mormonism, Islam vs Christianity, etc.

Other than their use of the tettragrammaton in the NT, what do you consider a "distortion"?
There is just so much it would be impossible to post. However, if you have a real interest, just do a search on Google on New World Translation, and plenty will come up exposing its mistranslations.

They do not use the tetragrammaton, by the way, but the distortion "Jehovah."

[barryrob]

Quite correct, John. Let's also remember that the JWs consider Jesus to be an archangel. Is there anywhere in Scripture where an angel (arch or otherwise) is referred to as "a god," besides Satan being called "the god of this world," in 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

In the Greek in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou," translated: "The Lord of me, and the God of me." If Jesus was not God, but some type of lessor being, then should not have Jesus have corrected Thomas at once? But He did not. To do so would have been dishonest. Nevertheless, the JWs will say that Thomas was so stunned by the Lord's appearance, that he "swore." How insance - would the devout Thomas, a good Jew, call a man God unless he had the revelation that Jesus was God?

Then you had better correct Jesus for lowering himself to a lesser being as he said HE has a God of his own which is the same God that his follwers have whom they all call "Father":-

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’"

They All (including Jesus) view the "Father" the same way, the only one to be worshiped otherwise Jesus would not of called Him God.

Don not come back with the lesser person stuff when he was on erth as its boring and not even worth replying to!

Barryrob

[Krusader]

Then you had better correct Jesus for lowering himself to a lesser being as he said HE has a God of his own which is the same God that his follwers have whom they all call "Father":-

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’"

They All (including Jesus) view the "Father" the same way, the only one to be worshiped otherwise Jesus would not of called Him God.

Don not come back with the lesser person stuff when he was on erth as its boring and not even worth replying to!

Barryrob

Barryrob: In the body of Christian dogma there is something called the hypostatic union. This doctrine teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully man simultaneously. He, as God, took the additional nature of man. While on earth, Jesus lived as a man. He was hungry, tired, and generally endured all the limitations of human existence. When reading the Scriptures, we can see that Jesus called the Father, "God." However, does this negate His divine nature? I think not.

[Timothy Leary]

They do not use the tetragrammaton, by the way, but the distortion "Jehovah."

Actually, many scholars - such as Emmanuel Tov and Nehemia Gordon - believe that it is a very plausible pronunciation. (Well, not how it's pronounced in english, but how it should be pronounced)

[barryrob]

Quite correct, John. Let's also remember that the JWs consider Jesus to be an archangel. Is there anywhere in Scripture where an angel (arch or otherwise) is referred to as "a god," besides Satan being called "the god of this world," in 2 Cor. 4:3-4.

In the Greek in John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "ho kurios mou, kai ho theos mou," translated: "The Lord of me, and the God of me." If Jesus was not God, but some type of lessor being, then should not have Jesus have corrected Thomas at once? But He did not. To do so would have been dishonest. Nevertheless, the JWs will say that Thomas was so stunned by the Lord's appearance, that he "swore." How insance - would the devout Thomas, a good Jew, call a man God unless he had the revelation that Jesus was God?




Does the idea that Jesus Christ is "a god" conflict with the Scriptural teaching that there is only one God? (1 Cor. 8:5, 6) Not at all. At times the Hebrew Scriptures employ the term for God, ’elo·him´, with reference to mighty creatures. At Psalm 8:5, for example, we read: "You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones." (Hebrew, ’elohim´; "a god," New English Bible, Jerusalem Bible) The Greek Septuagint Version renders ’elo·him´ here as "angels." The Jewish translators of this version saw no conflict with monotheism in applying the term for God to created spirit persons. (Compare Hebrews 2:7, 9.) Similarly, Jews of the first century C.E. found no conflict with their belief in one God at Psalm 82, though verses 1 and 6 of this psalm utilize the word ’elo·him´ (the·oi´, plural of the·os´, Septuagint) with reference to human judges.—Compare John 10:34-36.

[Ric]

The Jehovah's Witnesses use a Bible only recognized by the Watchtower Society, due to the fact that the editions used by Christians totally refute many Watchtower doctrines. Thus, the Society published its own Bible, incorporating into it many of the false doctrines taught by the Society.

One of the most glaring errors in the New World Translation is the way the Society has tampered with the Greek word "proskuneo," which is translated as "worship" when applied to Jehova 22 times in the NWT.

The same word, proskuneo, is translated as "obeisance," "reverence," and "homage," when the word is applied to Christ.

Why has the Society misrepresented to word "proskuneo" in relationship to Jesus? It is solely due to their Arian doctrine that Jesus is a secondary god and a created spirit creature.

There are many other dishonest, biased translations in the NWT - and I've always felt that the NWT is like spiritual rat poison!


I know,

I went through the Gospel of John in the NWT and I can't even remember how many mistranslated verses I noted. And that took quite a long time to do!

I'm not looking forward to the Gospel of Mark!

[barryrob]

Actually, many scholars - such as Emmanuel Tov and Nehemia Gordon - believe that it is a very plausible pronunciation. (Well, not how it's pronounced in english, but how it should be pronounced)
I'm English as it would be approprate to use my Native tounge as other nations do.

[barryrob]

I know,

I went through the Gospel of John in the NWT and I can't even remember how many mistranslated verses I noted. And that took quite a long time to do!

I'm not looking forward to the Gospel of Mark!
Examples please?

[Menachem]

One of the most glaring errors in the New World Translation is the way the Society has tampered with the Greek word "proskuneo," which is translated as "worship" when applied to Jehova 22 times in the NWT.

The same word, proskuneo, is translated as "obeisance," "reverence," and "homage," when the word is applied to Christ.

Why has the Society misrepresented to word "proskuneo" in relationship to Jesus? It is solely due to their Arian doctrine that Jesus is a secondary god and a created spirit creature.

would you agree that reverence, obeisance, and Homage would be a type of worship when applied to G-d?

If so they are not misrepresenting the word.

I am not trying to defend them in anyway but in my opinion they are trying give the reader a feel of what the word is showing not a literal translation of the word.

Thats the take im getting, by no means am I trying to defend their translation just pointing out something peculiar.

Shalom,

[Menachem]

I'm English as it would be approprate to use my Native tounge as other nations do.


But when in Rome do as the Romans do!

Shalom,

[barryrob]

I know,

I went through the Gospel of John in the NWT and I can't even remember how many mistranslated verses I noted. And that took quite a long time to do!

I'm not looking forward to the Gospel of Mark!

Examples please?
Barryrob

[barryrob]

But when in Rome do as the Romans do!
Shalom,

I'm not in Rome.

Forms of the divine name in different languages, indicating international acceptance of the form Jehovah
Awabakal - Yehóa
Bugotu - Jihova
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Danish - Jehova
Dutch - Jehovah
Efik - Jehovah
English - Jehovah
Fijian - Jiova
Finnish - Jehova
French - Jéhovah
Futuna - Ihova
German - Jehova
Hungarian - Jehova
Igbo - Jehova
Italian - Geova
Japanese - Ehoba
Maori - Ihowa
Motu - Iehova
Mwala-Malu - Jihova
Narrinyeri - Jehovah
Nembe - Jihova
Petats - Jihouva
Polish - Jehowa
Portuguese - Jeová
Romanian - Iehova
Samoan - Ieova
Sotho - Jehova
Spanish - Jehová
Swahili - Yehova
Swedish - Jehova
Tahitian - Iehova
Tagalog - Jehova
Tongan - Jihova
Venda - Yehova
Xhosa - uYehova
Yoruba - Jehofah
Zulu - uJehova


Peace Barryrob

[Sparko]

Examples please?
Barryrob

:duh:

Barryrob, how about every place they put in the name Jehovah, as I am telling you in the other thread?

How about the gospel of John where we have shown you in other threads that the NWT is mistranslating 1:1 and various other verses?

How about where the NWT sticks in words that are not even in the original greek like saying
Colossians 1:16
For by him all [other] things were created

Changing the word 'cross' to 'torture stake' everywhere.

Not to mention how unreadable the grammar is in many places in the NWT.

[barryrob]

:duh:

Barryrob, how about every place they put in the name Jehovah, as I am telling you in the other thread?

How about the gospel of John where we have shown you in other threads that the NWT is mistranslating 1:1 and various other verses?

How about where the NWT sticks in words that are not even in the original greek like saying
Colossians 1:16
For by him all [other] things were created

Changing the word 'cross' to 'torture stake' everywhere.

Not to mention how unreadable the grammar is in many places in the NWT.

Go and read them again but this time open your heart to what the Bible says and just maybe you will see?

[Sparko]

Go and read them again but this time open your heart to what the Bible says and just maybe you will see?

What a cop out.

You go and read them again and ask yourself, what right did the NWT translators have in changing the words from what the actual apostles of God wrote in the first place?

[barryrob]

What a cop out.

You go and read them again and ask yourself, what right did the NWT translators have in changing the words from what the actual apostles of God wrote in the first place?

God had penned "YHWH" what give you the right to think and agree with others who change God's word and then expect to be agreed with?

[Sparko]

God had penned "YHWH" what give you the right to think and agree with others who change God's word and then expect to be agreed with?

That made absolutely no sense. Try again.

[Menachem]

I'm not in Rome.

Forms of the divine name in different languages, indicating international acceptance of the form Jehovah
Awabakal - Yehóa
Bugotu - Jihova
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Danish - Jehova
Dutch - Jehovah
Efik - Jehovah
English - Jehovah
Fijian - Jiova
Finnish - Jehova
French - Jéhovah
Futuna - Ihova
German - Jehova
Hungarian - Jehova
Igbo - Jehova
Italian - Geova
Japanese - Ehoba
Maori - Ihowa
Motu - Iehova
Mwala-Malu - Jihova
Narrinyeri - Jehovah
Nembe - Jihova
Petats - Jihouva
Polish - Jehowa
Portuguese - Jeová
Romanian - Iehova
Samoan - Ieova
Sotho - Jehova
Spanish - Jehová
Swahili - Yehova
Swedish - Jehova
Tahitian - Iehova
Tagalog - Jehova
Tongan - Jihova
Venda - Yehova
Xhosa - uYehova
Yoruba - Jehofah
Zulu - uJehova


Peace Barryrob


that is not an excuse for using english where hebrew is the language.

[barryrob]

that is not an excuse for using english where hebrew is the language.

But as I said I speak English not Hebrew it is good enough and understood who is spoken of, the One and Only Almighty God.
Barryrob

[Krusader]

But as I said I speak English not Hebrew it is good enough and understood who is spoken of, the One and Only Almighty God.
Barryrob


You say, "it is good enough and understood who is spoken of, the One and Almighty God." And, it is good enough and understood when the Scriptures refer to YHWH as God and Lord. You have trapped yourself by your own words!

[furay]

Hey all, I'm about to start an email correspondance with an JW Elder from Massachusetts. Nice man, my mother is acquainted with him. I plan on mostly discussing Orthodoxy with him, because in all my years and experience with JW's I've never brought the subject up. I've only been an inquirer for a relatively short time. Maybe I'll discuss some of the issues raised on these forums with him too. Please pray that I will keep my cool and treat him with respect. Thanks. All the best.

[barryrob]

You say, "it is good enough and understood who is spoken of, the One and Almighty God." And, it is good enough and understood when the Scriptures refer to YHWH as God and Lord. You have trapped yourself by your own words!


That is for Jehovah to decide not you or me, but it would seem as the Name -Jehovah- will just not go away or be disposed of, no matter how many have tried or try to, so it would seem that God is well pleased with it now! Today there are 6,500,000+ Jehovah's Witnesses world wide who will not let it go away and it would seem that Nothing can stop them either!

Psalm 145:21
The praise of Jehovah my mouth will speak; And let all flesh bless his holy name to time indefinite, even forever.

Barryrob

[Sparko]

But as I said I speak English not Hebrew it is good enough and understood who is spoken of, the One and Only Almighty God.
Barryrob

So if I decide to pronounce YWHW as "YooWooHooWoo" then that is good enough since God knows who I am speaking of, right? What if I call him "Walter?"

I guess you belong to Walter's Witnesses.

Face it Barryrob, you JW's make such a stink about other Christians not using the true name of God to identify with and you all are identifying yourself with a false version of God's true name. The irony is palpable. We definitely know that Jehovah is a wrong pronunciation because we know the history of how it came to be corrupted from YHWH and Adonai and then the English mis use of the J sound instead of the Y sound.

If you guys were truly interested in going by God's true name you would be YHWH's Witnesses.

[Krusader]

That is for Jehovah to decide not you or me, but it would seem as the Name -Jehovah- will just not go away or be disposed of, no matter how many have tried or try to, so it would seem that God is well pleased with it now! Today there are 6,500,000+ Jehovah's Witnesses world wide who will not let it go away and it would seem that Nothing can stop them either!

Psalm 145:21
The praise of Jehovah my mouth will speak; And let all flesh bless his holy name to time indefinite, even forever.

Barryrob

At the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, Barryrob! There are millions of people in Sacred Name sects, also, who say you must pronounce God's Name as Yaweh - and they're alot closer to the Hebrew than are the JWs. Jehovah is a false transliteration of the Hebrew, so there are 6,500,000 witnesses calling God by the wrong name. Do you really think God approves of that?

You people swallow a camel and strain at a gnat! I suppose that guidance coming from the dead isn't working very well.

[barryrob]

At the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, Barryrob! There are millions of people in Sacred Name sects, also, who say you must pronounce God's Name as Yaweh - and they're alot closer to the Hebrew than are the JWs. Jehovah is a false transliteration of the Hebrew, so there are 6,500,000 witnesses calling God by the wrong name. Do you really think God approves of that?

You people swallow a camel and strain at a gnat! I suppose that guidance coming from the dead isn't working very well.


King James Version 1611
Psalm 83:18 "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."

So I will stay with the Bible thank you!
Barryrob

[Sparko]

King James Version 1611
Psalm 83:18 "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."

So I will stay with the Bible thank you!
Barryrob

Well if you stuck with the King James Version it would be much better than the NWT, that is for sure.

We already explained that Jehovah was a middle ages misunderstaning of the mix of YHWH and Adonai, combined with the english use of J instead of the Hebrew Y sound. When do you suppose the 1611 version of the King James was written? Hmmm? Could it be... 1611?

Its not as big a deal to Christians, Barryrob, because we call God Father and are not so hung up on getting his name exactly right so we "identify with it" We identify with God's other name "Jesus" the Christ. Because Jesus is God as much as the Father is.

But since you JWs need to be identified with the old testament name of God, shouldn't you at least get it right? Of all of the various ways YHWH could be pronounced, Jehovah is one of the ones that we KNOW FOR A FACT is not correct. Might as well call yourself Jebadiah's Witnesses.

So if your organisation is identified with the wrong name of God, doesn't that tell you that the organisation is wrong and that it is a man made cult? It should.

Think for yourself, barryrob.

[barryrob]

Well if you stuck with the King James Version it would be much better than the NWT, that is for sure.

We already explained that Jehovah was a middle ages misunderstaning of the mix of YHWH and Adonai, combined with the english use of J instead of the Hebrew Y sound. When do you suppose the 1611 version of the King James was written? Hmmm? Could it be... 1611?

Its not as big a deal to Christians, Barryrob, because we call God Father and are not so hung up on getting his name exactly right so we "identify with it" We identify with God's other name "Jesus" the Christ. Because Jesus is God as much as the Father is.

But since you JWs need to be identified with the old testament name of God, shouldn't you at least get it right? Of all of the various ways YHWH could be pronounced, Jehovah is one of the ones that we KNOW FOR A FACT is not correct. Might as well call yourself Jebadiah's Witnesses.

So if your organisation is identified with the wrong name of God, doesn't that tell you that the organisation is wrong and that it is a man made cult? It should.

Think for yourself, barryrob.

Not according to the Oxford Dictionary:-

"Jehovah n. Hebrew name of God in the Old Testament. [Hebrew yahveh]."

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Not according to the Oxford Dictionary:-

"Jehovah n. Hebrew name of God in the Old Testament. [Hebrew yahveh]."

Barryrob

Well if a dictionary says it then it must be so!

Let's see what dictionary.com says:

[Blend of the letters of the Tetragrammaton and, with modification, the vowels of Adonai.]

jehovah

the special and significant name (not merely an appellative title such as Lord [adonai]) by which God revealed himself to the ancient Hebrews (Ex. 6:2, 3). This name, the Tetragrammaton of the Greeks, was held by the later Jews to be so sacred that it was never pronounced except by the high priest on the great Day of Atonement, when he entered into the most holy place. Whenever this nameoccurred in the sacred books they pronounced it, as they still do, "Adonai" (i.e., Lord), thus using another word in its stead. The Massorets gave to it the vowel-points appropriate to this word. This Jewish practice was founded on a false interpretation of Lev. 24:16. The meaning of the word appears from Ex. 3:14 to be "the unchanging, eternal, self-existent God," the "I am that I am," a convenant-keeping God. (Comp. Mal. 3:6; Hos. 12:5; Rev. 1:4, 8.) The Hebrew name "Jehovah" is generally translated in the Authorized Version (and the Revised Version has not departed from this rule) by the word LORD printed in small capitals, to distinguish it from the rendering of the Hebrew _Adonai_ and the Greek _Kurios_, which are also rendered Lord, but printed in the usual type.
The Hebrew word is translated "Jehovah" only in Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4, and in the compound names mentioned below. It is worthy of notice that this name is never used in the LXX., the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Apocrypha, or in the New Testament. It is found, however, on the "Moabite stone" (q.v.), and consequently it must have been in the days of Mesba so commonly pronounced by the Hebrews as to be familiar to their heathen neighbours.




So, it agrees with what we have been saying. Jehovah is transliterated from YHWH and Adonai. It is not the pronunciation for YHWH, but a corruption of two words YHWH and Adonai. It is also of note that Hebrew doesn't use the J sound so the J in Jehovah is wrong. It should be Y. Do you see any J in YHWH or Adonai?

Also the dictionary agrees that the word Jehovah was never used in the New Testament (which disagrees with the NWT huh?)

The Merriam-Webster online dictionary says:
www.m-w.com
Jehovah: Etymology: New Latin, reading (as YehOwAh) of Hebrew yhwh Yahweh with the vowel points of 'adhOnAy my lord

And The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language agrees:
www.bartleby.com
Jehovah: Etymology: Blend of the letters of the Tetragrammaton and, with modification, the vowels of Adonai.

Since we are using a dictionary, which is your authority of choice, I trust you will not have any complaints or disagreements with it. :wink:

---

[Krusader]

King James Version 1611
Psalm 83:18 "That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth."

So I will stay with the Bible thank you!
Barryrob

Barryrob, I agree that you should stick with the Bible - the King James Version is correct! The Hebrew, of course, should be translated as "Yah-weh," as you well know. But, if this is what it takes to get you to throw away the spiritual rat poison of the New World Translation, fine!

By the way, God's Name is Yahweh, and that is the Name of the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

[barryrob]

Barryrob, I agree that you should stick with the Bible - the King James Version is correct! The Hebrew, of course, should be translated as "Yah-weh," as you well know. But, if this is what it takes to get you to throw away the spiritual rat poison of the New World Translation, fine!

By the way, God's Name is Yahweh, and that is the Name of the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

Ok as The KJV agrees with us and not you!
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Ok as The KJV agrees with us and not you!
Barryrob

Really? Read John 1:1 and tell me who the Word is? Use the KJV now.

The Word is God and the word became flesh. Jesus is the Word and is God.

not "a" god. God.

then go read verse 3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

not any [other] thing, like the NWT inserts.


Now read the whole New Testament and see where any book has Jehovah inserted where the original had Lord?

Yep, stick with that King James verson and you will see how corrupt the NWT is.

[barryrob]

Really? Read John 1:1 and tell me who the Word is? Use the KJV now.

The Word is God and the word became flesh. Jesus is the Word and is God.

not "a" god. God.

then go read verse 3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

not any [other] thing, like the NWT inserts.


Now read the whole New Testament and see where any book has Jehovah inserted where the original had Lord?

Yep, stick with that King James verson and you will see how corrupt the NWT is.

Jesus also calls of Jehovah as "My God" so then I stay with what Jesus said and worship the person Jesus spoke of, namely Jehovah.
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Jesus also calls of Jehovah as "My God" so then I stay with what Jesus said and worship the person Jesus spoke of, namely Jehovah.
Barryrob

So let's see, the bible clearly says Jesus IS God in several places, but it indeed does show Jesus calling the Father "my God" too.

So either the bible is wrong in one of those places, which means we can not trust the bible anymore, or... the bible is right in all the places and there is a good explanation for Jesus calling the Father his God.

Oh, and there is a place where the Father calls Jesus, God, too!

Hebrews 1:8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=1&verse=8&version=31&context=verse)
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

(KJV) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

(ps: that is another verse that the NWT corrupts)





I go with option two. Jesus was both fully man and fully God. In his incarnation on earth, he subitted his will to the Father. So when he calls the Father, God, he is speaking out of submission and from his humanity.

But this is going beyond the scope of this thread. Here we are speaking of did the NWT change the scriptures by adding and mistranslating the greek and hebrew.

We have shown you dozens of examples and all you do is try to sidetrack the thread. You have still to answer or give reason why the NWT has clearly made these changes to the bible.