The Kings that came to see Jesus where agents of the Devil!

[barryrob]

WHO WERE THE SO-CALLED 'KINGS'

OR 'WISE MEN' THAT CAME TO SEE THE YOUNG JESUS?



Matthew 2:1 "After Jesus was born in Bethleham in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi(Astrologers, The New English Bible) from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.-New International Version of the Bible



Various comments on the meaning of the Greek word magoi, Magi.



This first comment is a Jewish view point taken from 'A Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica by John Lightfoot Vol. 2 page 36 ; "magoi ap anatolwoWise men from the east] MagoiMagi, that is wisards, or such as practised ill arts : for in this sense alone this word occurs in the holy writ,"


Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament by F. Rienecker & C. Rogers p.2

magoV person or Babylonian priest or "wise men" who is esp. acquainted with the interpretation of stars and dreams as well as with other things (s,TDNT; HDCG, II, 97-101)



Etymological Lexicon of Classical Greek (Etyma Graeca) by E.R. Wharton p.83

"magoV wizard : Persian."



The Collins Dictionary and Thesaurus p.601

magi pl. n., sing. -gus 1. the Zoroastrian priests of the ancient Meads and Persians. 2. the three Magi. the wise men from the East who came to do homage to the infant Jesus (Matthew 2:1-12). -magian adj.



Word Meanings in the New Testament by Ralph Earle p.1

Who were these Magi? They were astrologers from Persia, Babylonia, or possibly Arabia. It is not stated how many there were. The idea that there were three evidently comes from the mention of three kinds of gifts (v.11).



The Little Oxford Dictionary p.342

Magi n.pl. priests of ancient Persia; the 'wise men from the East', in the Gospel.



The University English Dictionary published by University Books. London. p.245

Magi, ma'ji, n.pl. The caste of priests among the ancient Meads and Persians; holy men or sages of the East.



Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary (Ed.1933) p. 544

"Magi, ma'ji, n.pl. priests of the ancient Persians: the Wise Men of the East. -adj.Magian, pertaining to the Magi. -n. one of the Magi. - ns. Magianism or Magism, the philosophy or doctrines of the Magi. [L., - Gr. magos , orig a title given to the wise men of Chaldea, astrologers and wizards.]"



Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words pp.679* , 587**

*"magos(magoV, [Strong's No.] 3097) denotes "a Magian." one of the sacred caste, originally Median, who apparently conformed to the Persian religion while retaining their old beliefs; it is used in the plural, Matt 2:1, 7, 16 (twice), "wise men." See SORCERER"

**"SORCERER 1. *magos(magoV, [Strong's No.] 3097). (a) "one of a Median caste, a magician" see WISE; (b) "a wizard, sorcerer, a pretender to magic powers, a professor of the arts of witchcraft," Acts 13:6. 8, where Bar-Jesus was the Jewish name, Elymas, an Arabic word meaning "wise." Hence the name Magus, "the magician." originally applied to Persian priests. In the Sept., only in Dan. 2:2, 10, of the "enchanters," RV (KJV "astrologers"), of Babylon."



[u]Theological Dictionary of the New Testament by Geoffrey W. Bromiley p.547

"magos. 1. The Greek World. This word has four consistent senses:

a. "member of the Persian priestly caste,"

b. "possessor and user of supernatural knowledge and power,"

c. "magician." and

d. (figuratively) "deceiver."



The Oxford Universal Dictionary (Illustrated) Vol. 1 p.1187

Magus. pl. Magi ME. [L., Gr.magoV, a. OPers. magus.] 1. Hist. A member of the ancient Persian priestly caste. Hence. one skilled on Oriental magic and astrology, an ancient magician or sorcerer. b. Applied to the heathen sorcerers who opposed St. Patrick 1822. 2. spec. The (three) Magi: the three 'wise men' who came from the East (see Wise man 3) ME.



Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell & Scott p.1071

"MagoV

1. Magian, one of a Median tribe.

2. one of the priests and wise men in Persia who interprets dreams.

3. enchanter, wizard, esp. in a bad sense, impostor, charlatan."



Further reading on the Magi see:-

Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament.

Word Pictures in the New Testament by A.T. Robertson M.R. Vincent D.D.

Expository Dictionary of Bible Words by L.O. Richards p.425.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by W.Bauer's, W.F. Arndt & F.W. Gingrich pp.484-9.

The New Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon p.385.





SUCH MEN AS THE 'MAGI' ARE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE for practising things that God detests, SO HOW COULD Jehovah GOD USE THEM, AS WORSHIPPERS OF satan AND THE DEMONS through the use of magic?



Deut 18:9-14 "When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. You should prove yourself faultless with Jehovah your God. "For these nations whom you are dispossessing used to listen to those practising magic and to those who divine; but as for you, Jehovah your God has not given you anything like this.



Lev 19:26 "'YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic.






How can these men have been pleasing to God if they where practicers of Demonic Arts?









Barryrob

[Solly]

Because the Gentiles, in thier blindness, were still looking for the king of Israel to come, and God used what they had to hand to bring them to the feet of Christ in homage, while the Jews remained ignorant.

Sheesh, how our own supposed 'spiritual' agendas can distort our ability to read the Bible!!

[Dave G]

Dr. Mark Foster said on Paltalk that the King of Israel is prophecied in the Zoroastrian text the Zend Avesta. I haven't found it, though.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Yes, they were Astrologs(?) from the East. Haven't you read how a little Jesus, when seeing them, stood up and rebuked the evil spirits inside of them, and they all got saved and happily lived ever after??

Oki, enough for joking. During that time the expectations that some (extraordinary) ruler, or king will be born very soon, was highly spread not only in Palestine, but also in some other regions in the East. No wonder that those Astrologis looked at "stars", and when finding some correlation between their knowledge and "stars" they went out to see where this ruler was born.

[Magdalenbrother]

Four remarks about this passage:

1. Have you ever seen a star that moves in the lower atmosphere and then stops over a house? The description fits a UFO, not a star. Not that I believe that this text is a proof that ETs exist and played a role in the Bible. I just want to point out the scientific absurdity of the story.

2. If the magi could read in the stars that a king of the Jews had been born and if they also knew from their astrological/astronomical observations that the child was to be a prophet and a priest (as seen from the symbolical nature of their gifts), this means that essential truths about Jesus can be found not only in Scripture but also in nature. IOW, sola scriptura is dead.

3. The magi went to Jerusalem and they claimed that a new king had been born. Herod was distressed and the whole city went crazy. The nature of these emotions was not just religious, it was also, and primarily, political. For the common people, this meant liberation from the yoke of foreign tyrants; for the Herodian establishment and their priestly supporters this meant a lot of trouble ahead, possibly, the abrupt end of the golden years of exploitation of the masses. It is clear that the title "king of the Jews" is eminently revolutionary and political. We will find it again at the end of the story, on the titulus: "Jesus the Nazorean, King of the Jews". Troublemaker, seditious leader. That is ultimately the reason why the prophet from Galilea had to die.

4. Jesus not only loved greedy pro-Roman tax farmers and lascivious prostitutes, he also loved wicked Persian magicians:lol: .

[barryrob]

Four remarks about this passage:

1. Have you ever seen a star that moves in the lower atmosphere and then stops over a house? The description fits a UFO, not a star. Not that I believe that this text is a proof that ETs exist and played a role in the Bible. I just want to point out the scientific absurdity of the story.
I like this as it makes the point how strange this Star acted!

We Jehovah's Witness believe that this SO-Called Star was in fact was manefested by the Devil to lead the Astrologers to Herod to try and get Jesus murdered by Herod to try and stop God Plan of salvation of Mankind etc..

Thus the warning to Joesph & Mary to flee to Egypt and the Warning to the Magi not to Go back the way they came via Herod (another Satanic madman).

Thus Herod's serching the Scriptures to find out where the King was to be born so the can have him killed the the murdering of The Babies up 2 yrs old.

Well spotted Magdalenbrother

Love Barryrob

[furay]

Four remarks about this passage:
1. Have you ever seen a star that moves in the lower atmosphere and then stops over a house? The description fits a UFO, not a star. Not that I believe that this text is a proof that ETs exist and played a role in the Bible. I just want to point out the scientific absurdity of the story.
What's your point? So much of the Scriptures are thought by so-called "Intellectuals" to be scientifically absurd. Doesn't make them so...

2. If the magi could read in the stars that a king of the Jews had been born and if they also knew from their astrological/astronomical observations that the child was to be a prophet and a priest (as seen from the symbolical nature of their gifts), this means that essential truths about Jesus can be found not only in Scripture but also in nature. IOW, sola scriptura is dead.
Pfft, big deal. Sola Scriptura is a faulty doctrine anyways.

4. Jesus not only loved greedy pro-Roman tax farmers and lascivious prostitutes, he also loved wicked Persian magicians:lol: .
Jesus loved (and loves) everyone... all the more reason to love him back.

[Magdalenbrother]

I know that many Christians make fun of you Witnesses of Jehovah. These "respectable" Christians don't realize just how close you are to the first Christians and to Jesus: they were like you people filled with tremendous eschatological expectations, people who thought that the end of the world was there, at the doors.

Needless to say, they were sorely disappointed.

[barryrob]

I know that many Christians make fun of you Witnesses of Jehovah. These "respectable" Christians don't realize just how close you are to the first Christians and to Jesus: they were like you people filled with tremendous eschatological expectations, people who thought that the end of the world was there, at the doors.
Needless to say, they were sorely disappointed.

Hi Magdalenbrother

Thanks for your kind thought, much appreciated.

I have read many of you posts with interest and I must say you/they have a high level of spirituality, in fact among the highest here.
I not only read according to Scripture that the end is near, but the events taking place world wide just cannot keep on as they are because if they do, and things are so bad now nothing will be left if Jehovah God does not step in soon.


Christian Love & Greetings
Barryrob

[Magdalenbrother]

I respect your beliefs, Barry Bob, although I do not share them. Maybe you have noticed that I have dropped the little cross on my profile altogether. I have put aside all religious affiliations, as Krishnamurti tells people to do. He's right, you don't go and seek God with the tether of a church. Old respectable tether remains a tether.

Because they don't have "other" as an option, I chose "pagan" because in truth I feel I'm now closer to the pagans than to the Christians, specially the "respectable" Christians.

The world is coming to an end and we don't need the Bible to know it. We ourselves are destroying the beautiful, living world we inherited from the angels and our wiser ancestors. Will God intervene? I don't think so. Creation and destruction, in endless cycles, are the eternal law of the universe. When human life disappears as a result of atomic war or ecological disaster or both, somewhere, in another corner of this vast, incredibly vast universe, a new world, full of beauty and plenty, will come into life for a new odyssey.

Let us wish them good luck. We have failed. Despite of the Bible or because of it is hard to say. The Bible is not really a good guide to responsible ecological living with it injunctions to "control" the earth and its indifference to the non-human world, to say nothing of its narrow nationalistic outlook and crass intolerance. But we had our glorious hours: the pyramids, the Greek temples, the great masters of wisdom East and West, the gorgeous cathedrals full of light and plainchant, the castles of the Renaissance, the poems of Shakespeare and Hugo, the delicate gardens of China and Japan, etc., etc.

They will probably fail too and end up destroying themselves. But it doesn't matter. God remains. Life cannot be destroyed.

[barryrob]

The world is coming to an end and we don't need the Bible to know it. We ourselves are destroying the beautiful, living world we inherited from the angels and our wiser ancestors. Will God intervene? I don't think so. Creation and destruction, in endless cycles, are the eternal law of the universe. When human life disappears as a result of atomic war or ecological disaster or both, somewhere, in another corner of this vast, incredibly vast universe, a new world, full of beauty and plenty, will come into life for a new odyssey.



"The world is coming to an end and we don't need the Bible to know it." Very true.

But:-

Revelation 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own* wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."
*God's

Proverbs 2:20-22 The purpose is that you may walk in the way of good people and that the paths of the righteous ones you may keep. 21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.

Jeremiah 25:31-33 "‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations. He must personally put himself in judgment with all flesh. As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. 32 "This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Look! A calamity is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest itself will be roused up from the remotest parts of the earth. 33 And those slain by Jehovah will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become.’

Thus will the end of the would be World destroyers and Warmungering Nation!!


I used to feel as you do about the planet but not any more due to the above promise from God.


God bless
Barryrob

[Magdalenbrother]

I love Rev 11,18, it's the "greenest" verse in the whole Bible.

By the way, the star episode in Matthew is also a reference to the (in)famous Star Prophecy of Balaam that a Jew would one day rule the whole world.

We know that all the peoples of Antiquity considered themselves as the truly human and civilized representatives of the race but to my knowledge the Jews are the only ones who have gone so far as to assert that they are not only a superior race but also destined to rule all the nations. It is paradoxical that the very essence of fascism is a product of the Bible.

[Rusty T]

Thy Nativity, O Christ our God, hath shined upon the world the light of knowledge; for thereby, they that worshipped the stars were taught by a star to worship Thee, the Sun of Righteousness, and to know Thee, the Dayspring from on high. O Lord, glory be to Thee. The Nativity of Our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ; Troparion, Fourth Tone

[clayrains]

Should the most important, if not the only, goal of any religion or science be truth? Would any of you people reading and writing in this post consider that a fair assumption? Assuming you do think truth should be a major determining factor, I want to say that it's really entertaining and surprising to see the posts made by people on all sides of this issue. So many people are amazingly quick to discount something that is percieved to blow a hole in their core beliefs. Likewise, many are often just as reluctant to consider that a little theory means the remodeling of thier meticulously constructed worldview. I will say that I can totally understand and appreciate how those people feel though. I can imagine that if I was married and saw possible evidence of a cheating spouse that denial would appear much more pleasant than rethinking my entire adult life. But when faced by situations like this, to me, the truth is now more often presenting itself as being the important factor when the smoke clears. Maybe its a gift. I'd like to think so, but I have but I'd say it's most likely the result of learning to keep a truly open, objective mind and interpret things in context.

With that said let's look at some of the past posts on this subect of the wise men or Kings of the East ...

"If the magi could read in the stars that a king of the Jews had been born and if they also knew from their astrological/astronomical observations that the child was to be a prophet and a priest (as seen from the symbolical nature of their gifts), this means that essential truths about Jesus can be found not only in Scripture but also in nature. IOW, sola scriptura is dead."

I too, think essential truths about Jesus are present in nature. But does that automatically denote "scripture is dead?" I apoligize if I am misinterpreting the point of the above quote, but is that the real point this person was trying to make... that God's presence in nature disproves Holy scripture's validity? That part kind of confuses me because I would have sworn that I've read dozens of verses throughout scripture that says God's presence is evident in nature?! If scripture is really and truly dead, then isn't it funny that the above writer quotes that same "dead scripture" to support their position that God is evident in nature? That looks like a rather self-defeating argument does it not? Is it unthinkable that God could be evident in both nature and scripture? Some people will even go so far as to use this example as proof that Christianity or any belief in a Jesus Christ is unnecessary or completely false. That's a fair enough assumption until you try to think of a reason that the wise men, magi, kings, occultists, or whatever you may think they may have been, would have plausibly travelled so far and spent so much money on gifts... all for a holy person that they needn't even fool with.

Also, many Bible believing Christians are just as guilty of the same type of hypocricy. It is so disturbing for them to believe that God possibly could present himself to a few pagan followers through the use of thier own false religion. It does seem unlikely at first, I'll admit that. But to successfully hold the position that the true God Jehovah does not work through other religions would require that we scrap many other seemingly truthful parts of the Bible, many of them core beliefs, namely that God is a "Just and fair God." If not, we'd at least have to construct numerous, amazingly confusing and preposterous, scenarios for any passages that might 'pop up' and do damage to our assumption that God could never have used false religion to His benefit.

"SUCH MEN AS THE 'MAGI' ARE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE for practising things that God detests, SO HOW COULD Jehovah GOD USE THEM, AS WORSHIPPERS OF satan AND THE DEMONS through the use of magic?"

I myself have even asked questions like this but I'm learning to also ask opposite questions like: Why could God not have used the practice of even satan worship to bring unbelievers to Him? Does not a chess player often use his opponent's own ill-intended actions to defeat that opponent?

Also, many Bible believing Christians are just as guilty of the same type of hypocricy. It is so disturbing for them to believe that God possibly could present himself to unbeleivers through the use of thier own false religion or lack thereof. It does seem unlikely at first, I'll admit that. But to successfully hold the position that the true God Jehovah does not work through other religions, or nature, or science would require that we scrap many other seemingly truthful parts of the Bible. If not, we'd at least have to construct numerous, amazingly confusing and preposterous, scenarios for any passages that might 'pop up' and do damage to our assumption that God could never have used false religion to His benefit. Is it not written in the scriptures that we are not to lean simply "on our own understanding?"

So far the only person on this post that I seem to agree with is Solly who said...

"Sheesh, how our own supposed 'spiritual' agendas can distort our ability to read the Bible."

I think nearly all sides in this debate need practice a few things that they all often preach, namely the use of CONSISTENCY AND CONTEXT. And also, do your own thinking don't lean merely on some preconceived, manmade philosophy when interpreting the Bible. I often had the same problem with Bible scripture until I learned to quit listening to some all-knowing religious leader. That may be why Jesus so strongly and constantly criticized, not only religious leaders, but religion itself, time after time, in the New Testament. Here's what all the facts tell me...

I think God is completely willing and able to use false religion and nature to communicate with mankind. It says so in many parts of the Bible. Does that mean that I think he condones the practice of false religion among mankind? Does that mean Jesus Christ and the Bible are unecessary or invalid? Of course not. Niether are true. Like I said earlier, the wise men sure went to a lot of expense if they could have just went ahead and continued to stargaze from their far Eastern palaces. The stars obviously didn't prompt them to sit around and keep doing the same old thing they'd always done. By the same token, I don't think this means that God has given me a get-out-of-hell free pass to go worship Ra, Baal, Lucifer, cows, nature or anything else from this day on.


Yes, God tells us we are to have no god before Him. That's true, but the Bible verses I see used to support this don't appear in their proper context. God gave the First Commandment to the Hebrews... not the Hindus! When God was addressing people with this 'shall not' throughout the Bible, you could say He was clearly addressing one general group of people: those hearing His Word... but certainly not the people would never, ever hear of his Holy Word!? Should God go back and ammend the First Commandment? Maybe God should have made the first commandment read like this to begin with: "Thou Shall have no gods before me unless thou hast no ear to hear the Lord your God." Maybe that would be clearer to some of you, but to me, the short version is pretty self-evident in that assumption isn't it?... you know... since we're hearing it in the first place?

The mistake is thinking that Christianity and its associated beliefs have to fit into our nice little perfect box, because it shure as Hell doesn't. The most ardent Athiests as well as the most devout Christians are equally guilty of this.

[shunyadragon]

I like this as it makes the point how strange this Star acted!

We Jehovah's Witness believe that this SO-Called Star was in fact was manefested by the Devil to lead the Astrologers to Herod to try and get Jesus murdered by Herod to try and stop God Plan of salvation of Mankind etc..

Thus the warning to Joesph & Mary to flee to Egypt and the Warning to the Magi not to Go back the way they came via Herod (another Satanic madman).

Thus Herod's serching the Scriptures to find out where the King was to be born so the can have him killed the the murdering of The Babies up 2 yrs old.

Well spotted Magdalenbrother

Love Barryrob
This notched any positive opinion I had of JW down more than a couple of notches calling the Wisemen who visited Christ agents of the devil.

A review of the OT on the relationship between the Persians and the Jews for Barryrob is in order.

[clayrains]

By the way, the star episode in Matthew is also a reference to the (in)famous Star Prophecy of Balaam that a Jew would one day rule the whole world. We know that all the peoples of Antiquity considered themselves as the truly human and civilized representatives of the race but to my knowledge the Jews are the only ones who have gone so far as to assert that they are not only a superior race but also destined to rule all the nations. It is paradoxical that the very essence of fascism is a product of the Bible.Magdalenbrother, You made me realize something... that all religions, and even non-relgions, may have possibly give rise to fascism. I know you said the Bible, but your symbols by your picture made me see this in a bigger way. The symbol was the one that looks just like a Shinto torii, or at least that's what I know it as from studying Karate. So, I read up on Shintoism, and found that it is just like Christianity in that it's based on the belief that Divinity was revealed through a particular group of people, and, based on that, these people were destined to rule the world. I learned this from a Shinto website...

"Today's Emperor Akihito is said to be the 125th direct descendant of Emperor Jinmu, Japan's legendary first emperor and a mythical descendent of Amaterasu, the goddess of the sun and the ruler of the heaven."

Then I thought about what you said about Fascism and I thought of World War II. I rembered how many times I've read that the Japanese in World War II saw their nation as superior and destined to rule the world at that time because of the Divine ancestry of the Japanese. You can find statements like the one below on nearly any site that talks about Shintoism in relation to World War II...

"Shinto is purely a Japanese religion, the origins of which are buried in antiquity. The Japanese name for their country is Nippon, which means "sun origin." Until the end of World War II, Japanese children were taught at school that the emperors were descendants of the sun-goddess, Amaterasu. Amaterasu had allegedly given the imperial house the divine right to rule."

That explains why they invaded nearly all of Asia and committed mass murders and other war crimes in places like China, The Phillipeans, India and every other nation they ever invaded in World War II...

"One of the most learned Shinto scholars of the periodwas Hirata, who wrote: "The two fundamental doctrines are: Japan is the country of the Gods, and her inhabitants are the descendants of the Gods. Between the Japanese people and the Chinese, Hindus, Russians, Dutch, Siamese, Cambodians and other nations of the world there is a difference of kind, rather than of degree. The Mikado is the true Son of Heaven, who is entitled to reign over the four seas and the ten thousand countries. From the fact of the divine descent of the Japanese people proceeds their immeasurable superiority to the natives of other countries in courage and intelligence."

This may be why Shinto finds little acceptance apart from Japan since everything of Japanese origin is exalted and that which is non-Japanese is abased. Shinto can also be said to be a textbook example of a religion invented by man to explain his ancestry and environment while taking no consideration of anyone but himself, just like many accuse Christianity of being responsible for. While I'm at it, I wonder if any Shinto leader or informal doctrine of Shinto ever taught that the Deities were using Japan's defeat in WWII as a judgement for their sins like the Bible so often told the Hebrews?

Not also do I now see Shintoism as a possible source of racism, I have been led to believe that Shintoism is impartial to religions, but now I see that Shintoists can also be accused of being intolerant of other beliefs just like Christians and followers of other monotheistic religions...

"After the Meiji Imperial Restoration of 1868, the Emperor restored the sovereignty, and the new government institutionalized Shinto as the official state religion while implementing restrictive policies against Buddhism and other religions including Christianity."

And all of this after many claim that Shintoism is not even technically a religion! Now, I don't seriously believe the actions of the followers of any religion necessarily reflects upon that religion. But, I do remember Magdalenbrother, in another post that you seemed to indicate subscribe to this notion. You said this was the reason you dropped the Christian cross from your group of symbols. Now you can remove that Shinto torii since you must undoubtedly now see this as a symbol of racism and intolerance too. That would leave you with Athiesm, but then again that was also the official premise of Marxism. So Stalin's mass killings and prison camps kind of shoot that all to Hell... that is only if you belive in a hell of course. Sorry!

[shunyadragon]

I learned this from a Shinto website...

"Today's Emperor Akihito is said to be the 125th direct descendant of Emperor Jinmu, Japan's legendary first emperor and a mythical descendent of Amaterasu, the goddess of the sun and the ruler of the heaven."

One of the unfortunate side effects of the coruption of religion is the militant manifest destiny that arises.

One interesting side note is that the Japanese and culture are distinctly of Korean origin. See Japanese Roots by Jared Diamond in the June 1998 issue of Discovery. There is more research since then, but this gives a good outline.

[clayrains]

I agree that racism, oppression, murder and intolerance can be a product of religion in some cases and I also think it's unfortunate that it would happen among any religion. My biggest question is why does that defile Christianity itself and deem it null and void, while at the same time, it's perfectly exusable for any other religion? I realize the examples I cited are not the fault of Shitoism itself, just as the actions of a few murderous "Christians" cannot be blamed on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can someone of this anti-Christian position answer these questions and explain your flagrant hypocrisy?

[clayrains]

I'll admit that many followers of Christ have gone astray and done some horrible things. I'll even admit that the Bible itself even shows examples of the Hebrews' assumption that they are the "master race." But the Bible is filled with stories of God's judgement upon his own people for straying from his word in this assumption as well. Plus the Bible makes many statements such as "make disciples of all nations", "all men fall short of the glory of God", "all are sinners." The Bible seems to be the only religion that I can think of that teaches that all men are equally lost and that only through a gift from God is there any kind of redemption or enlightenment. What about this? Can any non-Christians find examples of these things in their religions?

[shunyadragon]

I agree that racism, oppression, murder and intolerance can be a product of religion in some cases and I also think it's unfortunate that it would happen among any religion. My biggest question is why does that defile Christianity itself and deem it null and void, while at the same time, it's perfectly exusable for any other religion? I realize the examples I cited are not the fault of Shitoism itself, just as the actions of a few murderous "Christians" cannot be blamed on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Can someone of this anti-Christian position answer these questions and explain your flagrant hypocrisy?
It is good your second post replaced 'few' with 'many'. Christianity has been the most brutal of all th religions in world wide ethnic and religious cleansing and systematic elimination of other religions. The problem with citing the Gospel of Christ as not to blame is this does not address the whole picture. In Christianity the OT and NT are bound together. Many if not most christians believe that it was Christ who spoke and acted on God's behalf in the entire OT including the acts of creation. If this was Jesus acting on God's behalf, His actions included massive ethnic cleansing and other brutal ruthless acts that would reflect the later brutality of Christians toward non-Christians.

The Holocaust of Europe was basically carried out by Christians in the name of nationalism, who justified their hatred of Jews Biblically and blamed them for the economic failures. Hitler and Stalin would have been able to absolutely nothing without their support. Their appeal to anti-semitism was a part of their appeal to nationalism.

There are other religions that have far less brutal and spiritually enlightened histories, like Buddhism and the Six-nation Iroquois Confederacy of the Native Americans.

I am a Baha'i and flagrant hypocrasy is not necessary when it is put into the perspective that these acts are by people who corrupt religion and justify their acts in the name of God. For Judaism the OT is their history and God did not order this brutality, the Hebrews justified these acts in the name of God, just as other people have done throughout history.

[clayrains]

The problem with citing the Gospel of Christ as not to blame is this does not address the whole picture. In Christianity the OT and NT are bound together. Many if not most christians believe that it was Christ who spoke and acted on God's behalf in the entire OT including the acts of creation. If this was Jesus acting on God's behalf, His actions included massive ethnic cleansing and other brutal ruthless acts that would reflect the later brutality of Christians toward non-Christians..I don't know that many Christians beleive that all of the talking was done by Jesus in the Old Testament, but if we go ahead and assume if it was Jesus was the one doing all the talking in the Old Testament, how did Jesus carry out this massive ethnic cleansing? What particular massive ethnic cleansing are you speaking of and what are a couple of these other brutal racial acts that Jesus committed in the Old Testament?

The Holocaust of Europe was basically carried out by Christians in the name of nationalism, who justified their hatred of Jews Biblically and blamed them for the economic failures. Hitler and Stalin would have been able to absolutely nothing without their support. Their appeal to anti-semitism was a part of their appeal to nationalism. .Here you go again! You can't seem to let go of your little feeble arguments. I know it would probably hurt to do so. Do Nazis and speak for Jesus Christ?! I've heard this worn out preposterous argument so many times. It's pretty evident that Hitler and most of his henchmen were heavily into the Occult and ancient paganism. Funny how pagans conveniently fail to claim their own and generously give the honor of this kind of association to Christians no matter how contradictory all of the evidence is! Mother Theresa, let me guess, had to be a pagan right? Totally irrellevant as it is, I know you can come up with some "proof."

I am a Baha'i and flagrant hypocrasy is not necessary (BUT SURE HANDY RIGHT?) when it is put into the perspective that these acts are by people who corrupt religion and justify their acts in the name of God. .You say that "they corrupt religion and justify their acts in the name of God" after you've just spent the entire post trying to convince me that it was the Christianity in and of itself that was evil and racist. Which is it?

For Judaism the OT is their history and God did not order this brutality, the Hebrews justified these acts in the name of God, just as other people have done throughout history.So it's different for Judaism? So Christians, as in our earlier assumtion, interpret the words Yaweh, Jehovah, God, The Lord, Our Father etc in the Old Testament as "Jesus"... for sake of argument, we agree. So some ethnic cleansing exercizes were committed in the Old Testament by this "Jesus." Now I'll assume the Hebrews did not interpret this Lord, God, Jehovah ect as anything other than "God." So when these same supposed acts were committed by "God", in the Hebrew sense of the Old Testament, how does "God" become "the Hebrews." Can you explain this? Also... "the Hebrews justified these acts in the name of God"... again you make the same contradiction as "these acts are by people who corrupt religion" in your previous above quote.

This is a lot of fun, so entertaining, because it's amazing to see how arguments over this ridiculous, baseless point of religious debate degenerate to such ridiculous levels when held under scrutiny.

[shunyadragon]

I don't know that many Christians beleive that all of the talking was done by Jesus in the Old Testament, but if we go ahead and assume if it was Jesus was the one doing all the talking in the Old Testament, how did Jesus carry out this massive ethnic cleansing? What particular massive ethnic cleansing are you speaking of and what are a couple of these other brutal racial acts that Jesus committed in the Old Testament?
Really not hard to find. The following is an example -

Saul in 1 Samuel 15:2-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=1%20Samuel%2015:2-3)?

I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.


Oh! By the way. The Lord repented and was really disappointed in Saul when he did not completely carry out his orders. He apparently cleaned his swords on the children and babies, but took home some prime livestock for sacrifices. The Lord was pissed!

This one gives a nice touch -


Is.14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers.


Here you go again! You can't seem to let go of your little feeble arguments. I know it would probably hurt to do so. Do Nazis and speak for Jesus Christ?! I've heard this worn out preposterous argument so many times. It's pretty evident that Hitler and most of his henchmen were heavily into the Occult and ancient paganism. Funny how pagans conveniently fail to claim their own and generously give the honor of this kind of association to Christians no matter how contradictory all of the evidence is! Mother Theresa, let me guess, had to be a pagan right? Totally irrellevant as it is, I know you can come up with some "proof."
Yep! Read Martin Luther's The Jews and Their Lies. Hitler and his henchmen may have been into the occult, but his support base were the Christians of Germany, Italy and other countries. Hitler actually killed most atheists when he exterminated the communists, artist, intellectuals and gays. Without the Christians Hitler could do nothing. They are the ones that carried out the program of Hitler, based on the handbook writen by Martin Luther. The anti-semitism of the Roman, Orthodox, Lutheran and other churches were the primary support for the Holocaust in the name of God and nationalism.

What does Mother Theresa have to with this? There are people from all religons who devoted their lives to the less fortunate.

You say that "they corrupt religion and justify their acts in the name of God" after you've just spent the entire post trying to convince me that it was the Christianity in and of itself that was evil and racist. Which is it?
I did not say Christianity was in and itself evil. I said the revelation of Christ was corrupted and they justify their acts of violence in the name of God, just as the Jews of the OT did.

So it's different for Judaism? So Christians, as in our earlier assumtion, interpret the words Yaweh, Jehovah, God, The Lord, Our Father etc in the Old Testament as "Jesus"... for sake of argument, we agree. So some ethnic cleansing exercizes were committed in the Old Testament by this "Jesus." Now I'll assume the Hebrews did not interpret this Lord, God, Jehovah ect as anything other than "God." So when these same supposed acts were committed by "God", in the Hebrew sense of the Old Testament, how does "God" become "the Hebrews." Can you explain this? Also... "the Hebrews justified these acts in the name of God"... again you make the same contradiction as "these acts are by people who corrupt religion" in your previous above quote.
No its not different for Judaism. I am presenting two views. The first is the Christian one, which believes Christ spoke for God in the OT and commanded the Hebrews to commit these acts of ethnic cleansing among others.

The second is my view that people corrupt religion and claim they are either commanded by God to do these acts or simply do so in his name. You see I do not consider the Bible literal or innerant, so this understanding is no problem with me.

[clayrains]

"I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

I'm glad you brought up this verse, Sunyadragon, this is a verse I'm very familiar with and one that has puzzled me just as much as it has you. This initially seems just as wrong to you as it once did to me I assume. I admit this seems questionable but, like you seemed to indicate a couple of posts ago, its important to put things in perspective before forming an opinion. I agree and that's why this does not present that much of a problem when I read this verse, and all verses before and after, and see the larger picture.

Firstly, it's helpful to read this verse in its historical context If you read the entire story in which this verse is contained you learn that the Amekelites, likewise, long bent upon the complete destruction of the Hebrews as well. I discovered, interestingly, that the Amekelites were actually cousins of the Old Testament Hebrews and at times were welcomed by Hebrews. Then you also see that the Hebrews were attacked by the Amekelites while wandering through the desert. It also seems that the Hebrew's sparing of Amekelite life was what enabled continued Amekelite attacks against Hebrews in years to follow. Then I often think "Did they have to kill women and children too?" I have to look at the Hebrews' options to answer that. At the time of Moses, I don't see what else they could have done. The Amekelites attacked and plundered Moses' caravans because the Amekelites were obviously short of food. This is a phenomenon we see in the Middle East to this day. Moses' people could have simply killed all the men and left the women and children. But this presents another problem. Those Amekelite women and children would have most likely starved in the desert. It would seem that the Hebrews would be condemning surviving Amekelites to death either way in their attempt at self defense. It was just a question of which death was more humane. Additionally, the Hebrews could have adopted these women children or even taken them as slaves if nothing else, but that creates the same dilemna. How would they feed them? This is probably very close to the situation in Samuel's time as well. I admit this argument may not seem lacking to my mind in some ways, but at the same time, I can't seem to rationalize any other remedy.

I see that to our rational human minds this does not seem right but maybe I need to open my mind and stop trying to see things from a purely humanistic perspective and try to imagine how God or a god would see it. Most all religions teach us that death is not the end but the beginning of life. Additionally, I never see anything in Samuel that says God delighted in giving this directive to the Hebrews. If you look at it this way, the God of the Old Testament may have been showing mercy to those Amekelite women and children rather than hatred , especially in light of God's other teachings in the Old Testament. Amazingly, this seems to be the teaching of the Bahai God if you look at these quotes of Bahá'u'lláh...

"O SON OF MAN! Thou art My dominion and My dominion perisheth not, wherefore fearest thou thy perishing? Thou art My light and My light shall never be extinguished, why dost thou dread extinction? Thou art My glory and My glory fadeth not; thou art My robe and My robe shall never be outworn. Abide then in thy love for Me, that thou mayest find Me in the realm of glory."

"O SON OF THE SUPREME! To the eternal I call thee, yet thou dost seek that which perisheth. What hath made thee turn away from Our desire and seek thine own?"

"O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendour. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?"

"O SON OF MAN! Magnify My cause that I may reveal unto thee the mysteries of My greatness and shine upon thee with the light of eternity."

"O CHILDREN OF THE DIVINE AND INVISIBLE ESSENCE! Ye shall be hindered from loving Me and souls shall be perturbed as they make mention of Me. For minds cannot grasp Me nor hearts contain Me."

"O SON OF DESIRE! Give ear unto this: Never shall mortal eye recognize the everlasting beauty, nor the lifeless heart in aught but in the withered bloom. For like seeketh like, and taketh pleasure in the company of its kind."

I tend to find the most truth in the teachings of the Jesus Christ but I love to study other religions because I am able to also find a lot of truth in them as well. I've read the Bahai scriptures and I think, to me, they may be the most interesting of all scriptures aside from the teachings of Jesus Christ. It may be because the Bahai scriptures are so incredibly similar to the Bible. I've noticed the Bahi religion even uses some of the exact same language and terms as Christianity like these...

"O Son of Man!", "have not these soiled hands of thine touched first thine own garment", "O Children of Adam!", "Ye are the trees of My garden; ye must give forth goodly and wondrous fruits"

These colorful terms and analogies sound exactly like many passages in the Bible in meaning and color. Did the Bahai faith grow out of Christianity? I thought it was either an Eastern religion or something that might have in some way grown out of Islam, since its at least some of its teachings, I know, are translated from Arabic. Isn't Bahai a more recent faith? When they translated it from Arabic, why did they use a King James
style of English then? Was it during the King James era that those scriptures were first translated into from Arabic to English? I'm just curious if you can tell me. I'd like to learn more about the Bahai faith!

[wanboredlatino]

Astrology was a scientific art back then. The present connotations did not infuse that science.

[clayrains]

My position is: Magi, Zoroastrianists, Satanists, Astrologers, Hindus, wise men.... what genuine, vital difference does it make?