The Scoffer and the Good Christian: a dialogue

[Magdalenbrother]

-Bill, how can you prove that the Bible is not a culturally-bound product? That it contains eternal, purely divine truths, uncontaminated by tradition, history and customs? Or if you prefer that the Biblical customs and stories are divine and eternally valid?
-I can't prove it sir, I believe it.
-Why do you believe it?
-There's no why, sorry. Maybe I could say like one of our apologists: Credo quia absurdum. I believe because it's incomprehensible.
-I think that you believe what you believe because it gives you a spiritual home to belong to. You are looking for safety. Besides, the beliefs you embrace seem reasonable to you: you like them. It's a personal choice: I'll be a Greek Orthodox because I love the incense and the gorgeous chanting in a tongue I don't understand! And it makes me feel important to know that I am part of an age-old "Orthodox" tradition...
-The fact that I find a lot of comfort in the Church and its doctrines does not prove that they are wrong. I call this the "psychological fallacy".
-By the divine Plato, you are logically right, Bill! But tell me, what about the guy over there who thinks exactly the same about his tradition? True, he doesn't believe, like you, that it is divinely absurd, but still, he is absolutely convinced that his path is the only path.
-He's wrong, obviously!
-He thinks exactly the same about you!
-Well, we'll settle accounts on the Last Day. God will choose. I'm sure he will pick me!
-Who is "me"? Is there a "me" in here that can be saved? Or is salvation only possible if and when there is no longer a "me"? Do you understand...?
-I beg your pardon? What are you talking about? I'm a unique individual predestined from all eternity to enjoy perfect communion with God. Don't try to sell me some rotten New Age stuff!
-Forget it, I realize that this was really too profound for you, who believe quia absurdum. I'm...I'm glad you said the reckoning with the unbelievers and scoffers would not happen here and now!
-We Christians don't control the judiciary and the government.
-Not any more.
-Not yet.
-You see, your choice looks like a wager. You don't have absolute certainty. You may be wrong and he may be right.
-That's right. Pascal compared the Christian faith to a wager.
-I don't mind your making such a wager as long as you don't call worthless other people's wagers just because their content is different!
-If I recognized other people's bets as equally valid that would destroy my own, Julian!
-Why is that?
-You still haven't understood the true, living core of the Christian message! Our Gospel is not some eternal truth that Jesus Christ re-discovered and propagated among the people, something anyone else could have found with enough patience and the right meditation technique. He himself is the Living Truth that saves man and His coming is something totally new and special that had never happened before. Therefore, the Buddha and Confucius and Laozi and Zoroaster, they must be all wrong because they all lived before Christ and couldn't know about him. People who today choose to disregard the Christian truth are guilty. They cannot be saved.
-They really have no excuse since it is enough to believe that Jesus Christ has died for my sins and to say it to obtain eternal salvation. When God has made things so easy, to reject His gracious offer is really intolerable!
-Bravo!
-Thank you Bill, this conversation has been truly enlightening to me in that it has shown me how difficult it is to reconcile Christianity with other Oriental approaches like Buddhism or Taoism.
-These "paths", as you call them, ignore the unique value of history. And of historical individuals. That's the difference.
-Yes, that's one of the differences...

[Cyrus of Persia]

Yeap, it remains me some threads here where is discussed about Christianity in Eastern, and in Western form. We use to take things at their face value without thinking what is the form, and what is the essence.

It started from the beginning of Christianity, when it already started to apply some forms from Greek philosophy into itself (like the idea of immortality of soul, etc).

[Magdalenbrother]

In my mind there is no fundamental difference between Western Christianity and Eastern Christianity. The core is the same, i.e Jesus Christ is the only saviour. As long as you have that, you cannot have true tolerance, sorry. It is true that the Eastern Orthodox Church has on the whole committed less crimes than the Catholic Church but the historical circumstances were not the same to start with. There is as much mysticism in the West as in the East and it is simply not true that the Orthodox are more mystical than the Catholics. The ancient Catholic liturgy and chanting are in mind more beautiful than the Orthodox, it's just a shame that they ditched it after Vatican II to please the Protestants.

I distinguish passive tolerance and active tolerance. Passive tolerance is a form of resignation:" These unbelievers won't let us convert them! For the sake of civil peace and Christian charity (or because the law forbids it), I won't force them to aknowledge my Saviour as the only true one. But they will go to hell all the same.Too bad." This is the form of tolerance practiced by most Christians.

Active tolerance sees other paths as equally valid paths of salvation because it considers God as a mountain in the middle of an immense and fertile plain, and not as a remote desert mountain valley to which one has access only through one, narrow Galilean pass. There is no pity, no contempt, let alone more or less disguised hate, in active tolerance. There is no attempt to declare the other's path "an implicitly Christian path". No. The difference is recognized and cherished. There might be a desire to learn from the other. There might be even admiration.

Unfortunately, since there cannot be two Jesus Christ in History, active tolerance is not possible for Christians, whether Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Then i interpretated your story wrongly. I though i saw there a hint against stressing individualism and "ego" versus "i am you" view.

And as a Christian i cannot follow passive tolerance what you described and i'm more into active tolerance. So, your view on that matter is purely narrow if you are considering ALL Christians, so sorry. I think you need to get a look to whom Jesus spoke the words "I AM the ONLY way, etc"...

[Zxcv Bnm]

Active tolerance sees other paths as equally valid paths of salvation...
...active tolerance is not possible for Christians, whether Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant.True. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 4:16]
Either you believe Jesus; or you don't. The difference is a determiner of whether you are a true follower of Him.

[Cyrus of Persia]

True. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [John 4:16]
Either you believe Jesus; or you don't. The difference is a determiner of whether you are a true follower of Him.
Although i asked it already in this thread, i will ask it from you too: to whom Jesus spoke that?

[Zxcv Bnm]

Although i asked it already in this thread, i will ask it from you too: to whom Jesus spoke that?Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
**I should also note that the chapter & verse I listed in my first post should have been John 14:6 (rather than 4:16).

[Magdalenbrother]

-Bill, why do you say that Jesus is the only Savior?
-Because He Himself said it: "Noone goes to the Father except through me. I am the way, the life and the truth. I am the door. " Etc. , etc.
-I won't argue that the Fourth Gospel is a late composition dating from the middle of the second century AD and as such represents a form of Hellenistic thought which is alien to the Aramaic worldview of Jesus the Galilean. I know you are impervious to such rational scholarly arguments.
-Right. I think John's Gospel is the earliest of all Gospel accounts.
-Believe it if you will! But answer my question: if I were Jesus and were reclining in front of you at the last supper, how would you go through me to the Father? See the problem? Even you must admit that this saying cannot be taken literally. Besides, where is the holy door today?
-The door today is the Church, which is the body of Christ.
-The body of Christ that set up the Holy Inquisition and burnt Michael Servetus? You said the door was the Church. Even you aknowledge that Jesus, the man, the historical character, is not the door through which one goes to the Father. Even you must give a figurative meaning to Jesus' words. So let me also play that game and say that the "me" in "Noone goes to the Father except through me" means my teaching centered on self-sacrifice. Nobody can see God unless he/she dies to his/her ego.
-The New Age stuff again!
-:lol:

[Cyrus of Persia]

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
**I should also note that the chapter & verse I listed in my first post should have been John 14:6 (rather than 4:16).
So Jesus spoke it to Thomas. Now, who was Thomas?

[Zxcv Bnm]

But answer my question: if I were Jesus and were reclining in front of you at the last supper, how would you go through me to the Father? See the problem? Even you must admit that this saying cannot be taken literally. Besides, where is the holy door today?One of [the Pharisees], an expert in the law, tested him with this question: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “ 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind [Deut. 6:5].' This is the first and greatest commandment.”This is love for God: to obey his commands.And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ....Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God....You go through Jesus to the Father by having a right relationship with Him. That relationship begins by believing God: that we are unable to please God, but He provides us righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3). Christianity is not a religion; it's a relationship with our Creator!

So Jesus spoke it to Thomas. Now, who was Thomas?Thomas was a human being who was born a sinner, just like me and everybody else, who needs a Savior, just like me and everybody else. But I suppose you want me to answer that he was a disciple of Jesus.

[David Hayward]

The ancient Catholic liturgy and chanting are in <my> mind more beautiful than the Orthodox, it's just a shame that they ditched it after Vatican II to please the Protestants.

-Bill, why do you say that Jesus is the only Savior?
-Because He Himself said it: "Noone goes to the Father except through me. I am the way, the life and the truth. I am the door. " Etc. , etc.
-I won't argue that the Fourth Gospel is a late composition dating from the middle of the second century AD and as such represents a form of Hellenistic thought which is alien to the Aramaic worldview of Jesus the Galilean. I know you are impervious to such rational scholarly arguments.
-Right. I think John's Gospel is the earliest of all Gospel accounts.
-Believe it if you will! But answer my question: if I were Jesus and were reclining in front of you at the last supper, how would you go through me to the Father? See the problem? Even you must admit that this saying cannot be taken literally. Besides, where is the holy door today?
-The door today is the Church, which is the body of Christ.
-The body of Christ that set up the Holy Inquisition and burnt Michael Servetus? You said the door was the Church. Even you aknowledge that Jesus, the man, the historical character, is not the door through which one goes to the Father. Even you must give a figurative meaning to Jesus' words. So let me also play that game and say that the "me" in "Noone goes to the Father except through me" means my teaching centered on self-sacrifice. Nobody can see God unless he/she dies to his/her ego.
-The New Age stuff again!
-:lol: Um, no, not ditched to please the Protestants, but replaced for good reason, namely to increase the involvement of the congregation, formerly quite audience-like, who now participate actively in the Mass.

Through : a common English word which is readily understood through looking up its New Testament contexts. Where it does not obviously refer to a place it can generally be replaced by

by means of
by power of
because of
as a result of
and is occasionally figurative, as in the "door" and "gate" metaphors.

David

[Cyrus of Persia]

Thomas was a human being who was born a sinner, just like me and everybody else, who needs a Savior, just like me and everybody else. But I suppose you want me to answer that he was a disciple of Jesus.

Well, both of those are valid. But what i wanted you to notice was that Thomas was a Jew. Now, who were Jews? Believers of Jahve. What did Jahve promised? The Messiah. Who was Jesus? The Messiah. To take it all together: Jesus was the Messiah for the Jews, and He preached to the Jews. He was the only way for them, as this was so proclaimed in Hebrew Bible (OT). Those who did not recieved Him, did not recieved THE way, THE truth, and THE life. No one of them could come to the Father, except by Jesus.

Of course, Jesus is the Savior of the whole world, also. Many heatens (me included) have experienced it. But for me it's very hard to believe, that Jesus would speak the same words to Buddhists in his time, for example.

We should take the Bible in context. Otherwise those people who have never heard of Jesus, would be eternally lost, because "no one comes to the Father, except by Me".

[Zxcv Bnm]

Cyrus of Persia, Jesus was preached to the Gentiles as the only way to be reconciled to God. Paul's letter to the Romans explains that clearly. And regarding those who have never heard of Jesus: He gives light (truth) to all people through general revelation: God reveals his existance and nature through His creation, and His law He has written on our hearts. I believe the Bible indicates that if a person accepts the light he has been given, then to that person God will give more light.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Cyrus of Persia, Jesus was preached to the Gentiles as the only way to be reconciled to God. Paul's letter to the Romans explains that clearly. And regarding those who have never heard of Jesus: He gives light (truth) to all people through general revelation: God reveals his existance and nature through His creation, and His law He has written on our hearts. I believe the Bible indicates that if a person accepts the light he has been given, then to that person God will give more light.

And now we go to the case study and bring a hypotetical heaten who have recieved some of the general light and God is about to bring him more, but bum... the poor man dies.

If he goes to heaven, then the words "No one will come to Father, exept by me" are not applied to them, what makes them less universial.

Of course we can "save" the claim and say that this poor man went straight into hell.

If direct faith in Jesus would be the only requirement for ANYONE to go to Heaven, then Jesus should needed to travel a lot to quick-save people before they die.

Every rule has a limits. Jesus as Messiah is the rule for Jews, and Christians. We cannot demand to obey this rule one-by-one by buddhist who have experienced enlightment from God by other means. Of course you can go on and demonize every other religion besides Christianity, but it does not prove anything. It all remains the matter of faith and understanding.

[Zxcv Bnm]

Every rule has a limits. Jesus as Messiah is the rule for Jews, and Christians. We cannot demand to obey this rule one-by-one by buddhist who have experienced enlightment from God by other means.Except that the God of Buddhists and the God of Christians are not the same God. There is only one true God; all others are false.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Except that the God of Buddhists and the God of Christians are not the same God. There is only one true God; all others are false.
At first, in traditional Buddhism there is no God.
Secondly, this is where our views depart: while you think that God has limited Himself with only one small flock (compared to the billiards of people living on Earth from the time human started to walk on it), i tend to think that He is the one and the only God who has control over every human. If He has decided to show His way somehow differently in other religions, i'm not the one to say, that it's not Him, but some demon (or false god). And here i must admit, that according to my belief even Buddhists one day find the God/Ultimate Reality behind their Nirvana :lol: