The Mystery

[Terral]

Greetings:


This post describes the Mystery of the New Testament, and particularly the Pauline Gentile Epistles, as a process of summing up all things. (Eph. 1:9+10) Whether you are a Jew under Mosaic Law, a Messianic Kingdom Disciple or a member of the Body of Christ, these things will lead to a much deeper understanding of God Almighty, His Word and this Creation in which we live. To gain full benefit from these exercises, you will need to actually draw the diagrams onto a blank sheet of paper, as things shall become complicated later in the exercise.

On blank sheet of paper, draw two large circles, side by side, that overlap one another to create three equal parts. In the left hand semicircle, write the word ‘spirit,’ and in the right hand semicircle, write the word ‘water.’ In the newly created (begotten) central section write the word ‘blood.’ You are looking at the three witnesses who are ‘three into the One.’ 1John 5:8.


"For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are into the One."
That simple drawing is the master blueprint for every mystery process in the Bible. What you can do with that little picture is like magic for discovering God’s secrets hidden in the Text. Now we are ready to begin putting in values for any of the triune relationships we want to explore.

Write “Creator/God/John 1:1” in the spirit part, “Creation/John 1:3” in the water part, and “Word/Son/John 1:2” in the central blood section. This shows the relationship of God, His Word and Creation. Note that God and the Son share one perfect Orb, and that the Son also shares that relationship with Creation; thus,

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
This picture before you is the Mother of all Types that pertain to ‘The Mystery.’ Eph. 3:3. Even the Mystery of Christ, described briefly in Eph. 1:9+10, is a microcosm or smaller version of the larger Mystery.

“ . . . and to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, in a true knowledge of God's mystery, CHRIST, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.”
God’s Mystery is Christ (Son/Word), because of the ‘relationship’ you are seeing in your drawing between the Creator Himself and ALL created things (seen and unseen), not just in this universe but in ALL of them. In other words, our universe is like one star among a multitude of universes that were called into being through His Word. The little finger of Almighty God cannot fit inside this bubble of creation (John 1:3); not even close. To God Almighty this creation is as a single drop of water in an endless sea.


"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!”
Every event that has transpired since the beginning of time (John 1:3) to the very last event that shall occur (1Cor. 15:28) happened before God Almighty in the flicker of an instant. From His perspective, the flash of Creation shone on His face and took His picture. If you could see beyond the veil of time and space, and look upon His face at any moment, from the beginning of time to the very end, then all you would see is His frozen stare. God Almighty does not change, because He simply does not have the time to change. It is only through His infinite power and divine nature that He is able to dwell within His Three Witnesses (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) Matt. 28:19. His Word (John 1:2) is the ONLY vehicle of expression that came from God Almighty to become ‘everything’ that has been called into being within this creation (John 1:3); and everything means E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

Place the values of Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) into your diagram. This represents the Three Witnesses from the Almighty. They are not the Almighty Himself, but They are His Three Witnesses in whom God Almighty from outside this realm . . . dwells. They represent His Tabernacle inside this tiny spec Almighty God sees as His Creation. From outside looking into this creation, the Father is the ‘spirit’ of the Son and Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the ‘body’ of the Father and Son. The Son is the ‘soul’ of the Father and Holy Spirit. Together they make up the triune image of God (Us and Our; Gen. 1:26), which is the image of a Heavenly Man (spirit/soul/body) ‘Christ Jesus.’ Next, enter the values of heavens (Gen. 1:1; spirit), earth (Gen. 1:1; water) and heaven (Gen. 1:8; blood). This diagram of our own individual creation is a microcosm of the Mother Type itself, and demonstrates the ‘relationship’ our Creator has with the myriad of universes He has created through His Word.

In each of these temporal spheres there exists a throne that shall be occupied by ‘a’ Father. The image that you see from Hebrews (8:1) is the Father, and the Son at His right hand on a throne.

“Now the main point in what has been said: we have such a High Priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the Heavens, a minister in the sanctuary and in the True Tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.’
If you have been following in this exercise, then you are now looking at Yeshua/Christ (blood) at the right hand of His Father (spirit). There is also an empty spot in your drawing in the water semicircle, which depicts a throne upon this earth. Do you know the name that is attached to this throne and his kingdom?

“Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!"
The book of Hebrews shows Christ taking possession of His throne in Heaven Above at the same time that David (Eze. 34:22-25) takes his throne here on earth. The Holy Spirit reigns supreme here on the earth in the bodies of the members of the bride (John 3:29) throughout the coming Messianic Kingdom of Israel. This will be Pentecost all over again, but the Kingdom will indeed come (Elijah restores all things; Edenic Relationship between the Lord God and Adam; Matt. 17:11). We cannot place Christ on the throne of David in this world. Christ told us that His kingdom is not of this world, and not even of this realm. John 18:36. Our Lord and Savior shall rule from New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:+) over the entire Creation (seen and unseen). Our father David will rule from his throne eternally in Jerusalem upon the earth. Eze. 37:24-28.

We can use our diagram to learn other things about the triune relationships of Scripture. Adam was the first man to possess the spirit/water/blood witnesses within one being, when the Lord God (Jesus Christ; Lord of Sabbath; Matt. 12:8, ‘seventh day’ Gen. 2:4-Rev. 21:1) formed him by joining the breath of life (spirit) and the dust of the ground (water). Adam then ‘became a living soul (blood).’ Gen. 2:7. This three into the one ‘man’ was unique to every other sixth day man (Gen. 1:26-28) who existed before him (stone age, etc.). He was formed in the image of pre-fall man from before the Satanic Rebellion caused our creation (Gen. 1:1) to be broken (Gen. 1:2). Adam was called into being in the likeness of Almighty God from beyond the veil of time and space. He did not possess a soul like men do today, but he became a living soul, as his ‘spirit, body and soul’ were the ‘same thing,’ i.e., ‘into the One.’ 1John 5:8. There is no man on this earth today made in the same image of Adam, as he stood back in Genesis 2:7. His physical/spiritual makeup is the reason that Eve (water) and the seed (blood) could be taken from his side (Gen. 2:21+22). What Christ did on the cross was the antitype of what the Lord God (Jesus Christ) did to Adam by taking Eve and seed from his body.

“But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.”
The ‘Last Adam’ (1Cor. 15:45) shares the same triune components as the ‘first man Adam’ in that He also ‘became’ Three into the One. Scripture says of the Son (blood) that He was ‘filled’ with the Holy Spirit (water), and that the Father (spirit) was ‘in’ Him. Christ met John the Baptist in the Jordan and received the Spirit of the Temple (Luke 1:5-15), to begin His ministry.

“Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness.”


"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is ‘in’ Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.”
His baptism (Matt. 3:16) marked the moment that Jesus Christ ‘officially’ fulfilled the type of uniting the Father, Son and Holy Spirit into one single Tabernacle here upon the earth. He is now able to call Himself the ‘Son of Man,’ as He is now the walking talking image of Adam before Eve and seed were removed, and is now ‘three into the One.’ 1John 5:8. Previously, there had only existed one man possessing those three witnesses all within a single tabernacle. Jesus Christ remains the “Last Adam” (1Cor. 15:45) to have that distinction to this day. He was then the triune ‘three into the One’ image of Almighty God from beyond the veil of time and space. And that is the image we shall be conformed to the instant we take on ‘immortality.’ 1Cor. 15:51-53 (53).

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
When we look at our diagram of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we can see that the Son shares one complete orb or sphere with the Father. And thus:

"I and the Father are one."
We also see that He shares that relationship with the Holy Spirit as His Body. This is what it means for the member of the body of Christ today to be a temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 6:19) and to also be “His body.” The Father is the ‘will’ aspect of the equation, the Son is the 'judge,' and the Holy Spirit (His Body) is the locomotion or power. That is the same setup that exists inside a man. The moment we are ‘caught up’ (1Thes. 4:17), then we move from the shared body/water orb into the central ‘begotten’ section of the ‘Son.’ That is the grand place to be in creation, because from there the ‘sons of God’ (Rom. 8:14, 19) have access to all parts of the Heavenly Man / Tabernacle.


“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His Body, which is the Church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.”
Write the values of oil (spirit), broken grain (blood) and water (water) into your diagram, and adding fire the result is ‘bread.’ Through the joining of all Three Witnesses into One, we can recognize Christ as the ‘Bread of Life.’ John 6:48. Therefore, the earthly types in the diagrams can teach us lessons about the heavenly, and visa versa. The Spirit of God has a way of giving us part of the story from the heavenly perspective, and the other half from the earthly. This allows Him to hide His wisdom from the prying minds of natural men (1Cor. 2:14). It is also important to understand that Christ is all consciousness (light of men; Gen. 1:3, John 1:4). Men today are formed in the image of spirit overlapping the body with soul being the ‘blood’ part. Your spirit is utilizing your physical body as a vehicle of expression. We gain greater awareness of our spiritual and physical environments, as the two spheres (spirit/water) overlap more and more.

We can use the diagrams to learn more about the Tabernacle of Moses, and the Temple itself, by recognizing that those dwellings are also Tabernacles of this same Spirit. The Tabernacle of Moses was 10 cubits by 30 cubits with the second veil creating a perfect 10 cubit square for the Holy of Holies, and the Ark of the Covenant. Write the ‘Holy of Holies’ into the spirit semicircle, the ‘Holy Place’ in the blood section, and the ‘court’ in the water section. The main features are the ark, (spirit), altar (blood) and laver (water). The layout of the Tabernacle is currently altered, and the laver of water is outside the Tabernacle, because the Spirit of God is at work consecrating men. Therefore, the priest washes outside and enters a blood section of double proportion (10x20 cubits). Every washing (water), sacrifice (blood) and oil anointing (spirit) ritual is an earthly symbol/pattern representative of something somewhere in creation.

Most everyone reading these words hold the firm conviction that God’s Word is divided into two parts of Old and New Testament. The truth is that the completed Sixty-Six books of God breathed Scripture are also represented by the three witnesses of spirit, water and blood. This simple truth opens the door and turns on the light to an accurate method of interpreting Scripture that resolves all of the seeming contradictions. What people perceive as the Old Testament is unclothed prophecy that pertains to Israel, and should be written in the ‘spirit’ portion of your diagram. The Hebrew Epistles (prophecy clothed) of the New Testament (Matthew – John, Hebrews – Revelation) belong in the ‘water’ portion of your diagram, which applies strictly to Israel and the Messianic Kingdom. The Pauline Gentile Epistles (mystery revealed) belong inside the ‘blood/begotten’ portion of your drawing. The Book of Acts is the (veil) transitional book that explains the transition from Israel’s Messianic Kingdom (bride under Peter; Matt. 16:16-19/Twelve) to the Gentile’s Grace Church (body under Paul’s stewardship; Eph. 3:2). And thus, the Word of God is divided according to the three major dispensations of Scripture, under the stewardships of Moses, Peter and Paul.

In every case the objective and end result of the Mystery process is to sum up the spirit and water parts of your diagram into the central/blood section. The ‘begotten’ (blood) section of your diagram shall enlarge to engulf the other, as a ‘tabernacle’ being spread (Rev. 7:15) over the spirit and water parts. When Christ’s three witnesses heard the voice from the cloud “This is My beloved Son . . . listen to Him!,” (Matt. 17:5) and looked back again, all they saw was Christ (blood) alone. Elijah (spirit) and Moses (water) had disappeared, as that was a vision of the three bodies of New Jerusalem being joined into one. Everything shall eventually be summed up ‘in’ Christ (1Cor. 15:27), and then the Son Himself is subjected back to the Almighty (all in all; 1Cor. 15:28), who from His perspective saw all of this happen in the flash of as single moment.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Terral,

You said:
God’s Mystery is Christ…I agree that one of the mysteries "is Christ".However,that is not "the mystery" of which Paul speaks of at Romans 16:25:

"…the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery"(Ro.16:25).

If Christ is "the mystery" then Paul would be saying:

"…the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revealation of Christ."

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Paul makes it plain that it is the "preaching of the Cross" that is "the mystery".He says that it is the "preaching of the Cross" that is the "power of God" and the "wisdom of God"(1Cor.1:18,24).He says:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery,even the hidden wisdom,which God ordained before the ages unto our glory;Which none of the princes of this age knew;for had they known it,they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory"(1Cor.2:7,8).

The "purpose" of the Lord’s death upon the Cross is the central truth of Christianity—how that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:24).

That is why Paul calls "God’s grace" the "mystery":

"Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you,that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation"(Eph.3:2,3).

The Scriptures revealed that "grace" would be bestowed upon the Lord’s people (Zech.12:10),and they also revealed the "sufferings of Christ",but it was never openly revealed that it would be the Messiah’s sufferings which would make "grace" possible.

In Christ,

Mickey

[studyhound]

:popcorn:

[Terral]

Mickey:
Terral Original >> God’s Mystery is Christ…

Mickey >> I agree that one of the mysteries "is Christ". However, that is not "the mystery" of which Paul speaks of at Romans 16:25: "…the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery"(Ro.16:25).
Every time we have a discussion, one of my very first words to you is . . . Context. You have quoted four words from my OP and then changed the subject. The preaching of Jesus Christ according to the ‘revelation of the mystery’ is THE GOSPEL. The ‘mystery of Christ’ is about the summing up of all things in Christ. Eph. 1:9+10. They are both parts of the things hidden in God, but NOT the same thing.
Mickey >> If Christ is "the mystery" then Paul would be saying: "…the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revealation of Christ." That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Tell me about it . . .
Mickey >> Paul makes it plain that it is the "preaching of the Cross" that is "the mystery". He says that it is the "preaching of the Cross" that is the "power of God" and the "wisdom of God"(1Cor.1:18,24).He says:
No. Paul is describing ‘my gospel’ (Rom. 16:25) as the ‘preaching of the cross.’
Mickey >> The "purpose" of the Lord’s death upon the Cross is the central truth of Christianity—how that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:24).
Yes, that is what happens when one hears (Rom. 10:17) and believes (Eph. 1:13+14) the gospel.
Mickey >> That is why Paul calls "God’s grace" the "mystery":
No. God’s grace is not the mystery. God’s grace is mercy that we do not deserve.
Mickey’s Quote >> "Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation"(Eph.3:2,3).

Mickey’s commentary >> The Scriptures revealed that "grace" would be bestowed upon the Lord’s people (Zech.12:10),and they also revealed the "sufferings of Christ", but it was never openly revealed that it would be the Messiah’s sufferings which would make "grace" possible.
The Messiah? Jesus Christ is the ‘Head’ of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) as an ‘organism.’ The Messiah is the ‘anointed one’ of Prophecy coming to the ‘nation’ of Israel to be King. Jesus as Messiah means nothing to the member of the body of Christ. You are once again confusing the fulfillment of Prophecy with the revelation of the Mystery.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Paul is describing ‘my gospel’ (Rom. 16:25) as the ‘preaching of the cross.’
Yes,but you did not even address the points that I made.It is the facts that are spelled out in Paul's gospel that make up "the mystery".Those facts were hidden because if the princes of this age knew they would not have crucified the Lord Jesus.And that is in regard to the "purpose" of his death upon the Cross.

God’s grace is not the mystery. God’s grace is mercy that we do not deserve.
As I said,it is the fact that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" that is "the mystery". That is why Paul says:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from law is revealed...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".
The Messiah? Jesus Christ is the ‘Head’ of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) as an ‘organism.’
I know that that is true.However,the "context" in which I used the word "Messiah" was in regard to the prophecies that revealed that the Messiah should suffer.It was the annointed One,Israel's Messiah,who suffered.Once He rose into His heavenly position He began to build His Church.So it was not until after He suffered that He became the Head of the Church.
The Messiah is the ‘anointed one’ of Prophecy coming to the ‘nation’ of Israel to be King. Jesus as Messiah means nothing to the member of the body of Christ. You are once again confusing the fulfillment of Prophecy with the revelation of the Mystery.
I am not confusing anything.I was speaking of the prophecies and what was revealed,and I said:
The Scriptures revealed that "grace" would be bestowed upon the Lord’s people (Zech.12:10),and they also revealed the "sufferings of Christ",but it was never openly revealed that it would be the Messiah’s sufferings which would make "grace" possible."The Mystery" is the gospel that reveals the "purpose" of His death upon the Cross.

As Christians we are to go to "all nations" and proclaim the "preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery".We have been given the "ministry of reconciliation" to preach the "word of reconciliation"(2Cor.5:18,19).

The heart and soul of the "word of reconciliation" is in regard to the "purpose" of His death upon the Cross:

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"(Ro.5:8,10).

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death"(Col.1:20-22).

"The mystery" is centered on the "purpose" of the Lord's death upon the Cross.Because of that death all those who believe are "justified freely by His grace".

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Terral Original >> Paul is describing ‘my gospel’ (Rom. 16:25) as the ‘preaching of the cross.’

Mickey >> Yes, but you did not even address the points that I made. It is the facts that are spelled out in Paul's gospel that make up "the mystery". Those facts were hidden because if the princes of this age knew they would not have crucified the Lord Jesus. And that is in regard to the "purpose" of his death upon the Cross.
The ‘gospel’ is not the topic of this thread. Yes. It is through obedience to the gospel that we are baptized into Christ and into His death (Rom. 6:3+4). Our church is being established and built to maturity (Eph. 4:11-13) today through the word of the cross, but the ‘gospel’ is not the mystery. Paul is describing the process through which all things in the heavens and the earth are being summed up ‘in’ Christ. Eph. 1:9+10.
Terral Original >> God’s grace is not the mystery. God’s grace is mercy that we do not deserve.

Mickey >> As I said, it is the fact that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" that is "the mystery". That is why Paul says: "But now the righteousness of God apart from law is revealed...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".
No sir. That is ‘the gospel’ and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery. The ‘gospel’ is the ‘message of truth’ (Eph. 1:13) or the ‘word of Christ’ (Rom. 11:17) or the ‘word of the cross’ (1Cor. 1:18) through which we are saved. Our gospel for today remained hidden in God, until revealed through the ministry of the Apostle Paul after Calvary. ‘The Mystery’ is about much more than just the ‘gospel.’ Our translation into immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) is also according to the ‘revelation of the mystery,’ but that does not make it ‘the mystery.’

The remainder of your post is the topic off ‘the Mystery’ as the summing up process described by Paul. The things I am describing in the OP pertain to what Paul is referring to in saying, “when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.” Eph. 3:4. In other words, when you read about the ‘administration of the mystery’ (Eph. 3:9) here in Ephesians Chapter three, then you can relate that information to the mystery of Christ. For example: Jew and Gentile are being summed up into one body (Eph. 3:5+6), like the heavens and the earth are being summed up into Christ. Eph. 1:9+10. The concept of individuals being baptized into the body of Christ is not taught in the OT through the prophets. The idea of heavens and earth being summed up in Christ is something totally new in Scripture, and revealed only in the Pauline Epistles. This is where we find out that the fathers were ‘all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” 1Cor. 10:2. Prophecy describes how the seed has been sown, and the Mystery describes how the harvest is being gathered ‘in’ Christ Jesus.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Mickey:

The ‘gospel’ is not the topic of this thread.
Terral,

It is if the gospel of grace is "the mystery".
Our gospel for today remained hidden in God, until revealed through the ministry of the Apostle Paul after Calvary.
At least you admit that the "gospel of grace" was indeed a "mystery" truth that had been hidden until revealed by Paul.
The remainder of your post is the topic off ‘the Mystery’ as the summing up process described by Paul. The things I am describing in the OP pertain to what Paul is referring to in saying, “when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.” Eph. 3:4. In other words, when you read about the ‘administration of the mystery’ (Eph. 3:9) here in Ephesians Chapter three, then you can relate that information to the mystery of Christ. For example: Jew and Gentile are being summed up into one body (Eph. 3:5+6), like the heavens and the earth are being summed up into Christ. Eph. 1:9+10. The concept of individuals being baptized into the body of Christ is not taught in the OT through the prophets. The idea of heavens and earth being summed up in Christ is something totally new in Scripture, and revealed only in the Pauline Epistles.
Yes,all these are things which were kept secret.But the "mystery of Christ" is not the same thing as "the mystery".The things you listed are teachings for those already saved by hearing the gospel.Until a person is born again by the "gospel of grace" he cannot understand the spiritual things you listed--"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...because they are spiritually discerned"(1Cor.2:14).

In other words,the spiritual truths you listed are not to be preached to "the nations",but instead to those who have already been born again by the gospel.It is the gospel,the gospel of grace,that is to go to all the nations--the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"(Ro.16:25,26).

The mystery truths you listed are for those who have been baptized into the Church,which is His Body."The mystery" is to be preached to all the nations.And Paul did indeed preach the "gospel of grace" to all the nations:

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth"(col.1:5,6).

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey >> At least you admit that the "gospel of grace" was indeed a "mystery" truth that had been hidden until revealed by Paul.
On the ‘Gospels’ thread you are going on and on about ‘revealing Jesus as Messiah’ and the ‘throne’ of David. On this Mystery thread you want to talk about the ‘Gospel,’ as if that is the mystery. Paul did not say ‘the gospel is the mystery,’ he said we are established “according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery.” Rom. 16:25. It is through the gospel that we become a member of ‘His body’ [ Col. 1:24 ] and ‘in’ Christ. That is why our ‘Jew and Gentile’ church is mentioned as the ‘body’ of Eph. 3:5+6. Paul went through that aspect of his dissertation in Ephesians 1:13+14, and seated us in the heavenly places in Eph. 2:4-7 (6). But that is just one part of the Mystery, as Paul is describing the ‘administration of the mystery’ (Eph. 3:9) through which the ‘manifold wisdom’ (the mystery; Eph. 3:3) of God is being made ‘through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly’ (Eph. 3:10). Paul is not describing ‘the gospel’ here in Ephesians 3, but the heavenly administration through which all things shall be summed up ‘in’ Christ.

“He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration [ Eph. 3:9 ] suitable to the fullness of the times [ eternal purpose; Eph. 3:11 ], that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.”
Our reconciliation to God [ 2Cor. 5:18-21 ] through the cross is one process of summing up ‘in’ Christ that is carried out by our obedience to the Gospel. The ‘church’ shall be the governing body that judges (1Cor. 6:2+3) the world (from the earth) and the angels (from the heavens) through the process of summing up of all things in Christ Jesus. All of this ‘summing up’ is represented by the growing central ‘begotten’ section of our diagrams from the OP. That is how all things are being subjected to the Son, and His enemies are being put in subjection under His feet.

“For He has put all things [ Eph. 1:10 ] in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
In other words, Christ is to become ‘all in all’ within this created realm, as all things are being subjected to Him. Then, once that ‘process’ is complete, then the Son Himself [ God’s Mystery; Col. 2:2 ] shall be subjected back to God so that He may be ‘all in all’ in the infinite realm. It is through that process that the finite shall put on the infinite [ just like mortal put on immortality ‘in’ Christ; 1Cor. 15:53], as we are translated from this finite realm to His infinite realm.

Did you try using the diagrams to see the summing up 'process' being described by Paul? Can you see the 'three witnesses' (spirit, water, blood) in the other triune relationships given in Scripture? Please do me a favor and stop trying to hijack the topic and transforming it into the ‘Gospel’ thread. Paul is teaching much more to the Ephesians on this topic than just about the gospel. Much more was hidden in God (Eph. 3:9) to now be manifested than that one aspect of the revelation of the mystery. I understand the differences between the ‘preaching’ of the gospel and the ‘teaching’ of the deeper things to those who are mature. This thread is not about the ‘preaching’ of anything to the unsaved, but about the ‘teachings’ of the Mystery that Paul presented from the hidden wisdom of God to the churches.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Terral,

Why do you repeatedly ignore the verses that I provided that teach that it is "the mystery" that is to be preached to "all nations"?It is the "gospel of grace" that is to be preached to "all nations",and not the other mysteries that can only be understood by those who have already been born again by the "gospel of grace".

The following verse also demonstrates that it is "God's grace" that is "the mystery",but you ignored it too the first time I posted it:

"Surely you have heard of the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation"(Eph.3:2-3).

As I said before,the "preaching of Jesus Christ according to the mystery" is to be preached to all the nations.The "mystery" truths you listed cannot be understood by all the nations because those things must be "spiritually discerned".Before anyone can understand them they must first be "born again" by believing the "gospel of grace".
Please do me a favor and stop trying to hijack the topic and transforming it into the ‘Gospel’ thread.You say that "the mystery" is about "summing up all things in Christ".How can all the nations understand that until they are first born of the Spirit?They cannot!First the "gospel" must be preached unto them.Then once they believe that gospel then they can understand the other mysteries.

You want to make the many "mysteries" into one.But the many mysteries are just that--many.They are not all together "the mystery".

In fact,the things you listed are described by Paul as "the riches of the glory" of "the mystery".They are not "the mystery" itself,but instead the riches that come to those who believe the mystery:

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"(Col.1:25-27).

In the above verse Paul makes it plain that his "ministry" and "dispensation" is in regard to "the mystery",and Paul makes it plain that his "dispensation" and "ministry" are in regard to preaching the "gospel of grace" (1Cor.9:17;Acts20:24).
This thread is not about the ‘preaching’ of anything to the unsaved, but about the ‘teachings’ of the Mystery that Paul presented from the hidden wisdom of God to the churches.This thread is about "the mystery",and the following verse in regard to "the mystery" is indeed about preaching something to the unsaved:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"(Ro.16:25,26).

Is not "the mystety" to be made known to "all nations".Are you under the impression that the words "all nations" represent those who are already saved?

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey >> Why do you repeatedly ignore the verses that I provided that teach that it is "the mystery" that is to be preached to "all nations"?
D’oh! :eek: Why are you hijacking the thread to Gospelville? Paul’s ‘my gospel’ is ‘preached’ to all the nations. Again you are equating one aspect of ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) and trying to twist that into being ‘the gospel.’ All of your OFF TOPIC references to ‘the gospel’ and ‘preaching’ shall be deleted, as they have NO BUSINESS being here. How many ways must I describe the differences?
Terral Original >> Please do me a favor and stop trying to hijack the topic and transforming it into the ‘Gospel’ thread.

Mickey’s New Hijacking Attempt >> You say that "the mystery" is about "summing up all things in Christ". How can all the nations understand that until they are first born of the Spirit? They cannot! First the "gospel" must be preached unto them. Then once they believe that gospel then they can understand the other mysteries.
Holy Molies . . . Paul is not speaking to the nations in Ephesians 3, he is writing to believers and members of the ‘body of Christ.’ Eph. 4:12. This is not a gospel thread. The gospel thread is not a thrones thread. The Mystery is not the Gospel. The gospel is the tool through which God is gathering members to the body of Christ. Being ‘according to the revelation of the mystery’ (Rom. 16:25) means Paul’s ‘my gospel’ is one part of that revelation. Try to get past that part and to the summing up part of all things.
Mickey >> You want to make the many "mysteries" into one. But the many mysteries are just that--many. They are not all together "the mystery".
Paul reveals that our gospel is part of the mystery (Rom. 16:25), and our translation (1Cor. 15:51-53) and our church (Eph. 5:32) and His incarnation (1Tim. 3:16) Israel’s blindness (Rom. 11:25), etc.. However, in Ephesians 3:3 he refers to that entire body of knowledge as ‘the Mystery.’

“ . . . that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief [ Eph. 1:9+10 ]. By referring to this [ here in Eph. 3 ], when you read [ in this chapter ] you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.”
The brief description Paul is referring to his here:

“He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He [ God ] purposed in Him [ Christ ] with a view to an administration [ Eph. 3:9 ] suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.”
The ‘gospel’ is about reconciling PEOPLE to God through the cross. Paul is here briefly (as said in Eph. 3:4) describing the ‘mystery of His will’ as a summing up process through which all things (not just people) are subjected to the Son. Thus, we see “the summing up of all things IN Christ.” Eph. 3:10. Paul is the one describing the ‘mystery of His will’ as the ‘summing up of all things’ IN Christ. I am simply slowing how Paul is teaching ‘the Mystery’ as this same ‘process’ of summing up. Paul is not describing a man coming back to the earth to sit on the throne of David. He is describing Christ Jesus through Whom all things were created, and ‘in’ Whom all things hold together. Col. 1:16+17. Those things currently outside of Christ shall be summed up ‘in’ Christ through this summing up process. By reading about the ‘administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God’ (Eph. 3:9) you can gain a deeper understanding into the insight Paul has concerning the ‘mystery of Christ.’ In other words, the ‘process’ for each aspect of ‘the mystery’ is identical, and according to the same formula Paul is teaching in both chapters. Two bodies are being summed up into the central ‘begotten’ section of my drawings from the OP.
Mickey >. In fact, the things you listed are described by Paul as "the riches of the glory" of "the mystery". They are not "the mystery" itself, but instead the riches that come to those who believe the mystery:
Heh. Oookay, Mickey. I am debating the topic with a person who believe the Gospel = the Mystery. Please try to describe what ‘the mystery’ is, before trying to say what it is not. The teachings from the OP were developed well over a decade ago after years of study, and have withstood the test of debate and time for all these years. You saying what the Mystery “is not” is no argument for anything. This reminds me of the three blind guys who think the elephant is like a tree, a wall and like a snake. You have a hold of the elephants tail trying to tell me what this thing is all about, when I have been riding him for quite some time.
Mickey’s Quote >> "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"(Col.1:25-27).

Mickey’s Commentary >> In the above verse Paul makes it plain that his "ministry" and "dispensation" is in regard to "the mystery", and Paul makes it plain that his "dispensation" and "ministry" are in regard to preaching the "gospel of grace" (1Cor.9:17;Acts20:24).
Paul’s ministry, apostleship, stewardship and the gospel are all component parts of the larger body of God’s Hidden wisdom he declares as ‘the Mystery.’ Eph. 3:3. Paul is describing the process through which all things are being summed up ‘in’ Christ, according to God’s ‘purpose for the ages.’ Eph. 3:11.
Terral Original >> This thread is not about the ‘preaching’ of anything to the unsaved, but about the ‘teachings’ of the Mystery that Paul presented from the hidden wisdom of God to the churches.

Mickey >> This thread is about "the mystery", and the following verse in regard to "the mystery" is indeed about preaching something to the unsaved . . .
You have this lopsided notion screwed into your noggin about what ‘the mystery’ means, and cannot see the forest for all of those darn trees. Nothing you are talking about has any application to the OP at all, which describes ‘the Mystery’ as a ‘summing up’ process of all things. That is what Apostle Paul teaches in Ephesians 3, while referring back to his brief statements in Eph. 1:9+10. Paul also gives a brief description to the Corinthians in 1Cor. 15:23-28. How do you suppose all ‘things’ are subjected back to Christ (1Cor. 15:27) and then to God (1Cor. 15:28) through the Gospel? How are THINGS summed up in Christ Jesus by obedience to anything? The gospel is the means through which God is reconciling the members of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) to Himself. We become part of the ‘administration of the mystery’ (Eph. 3:9), which is the ‘administration suitable to the fullness of times’ (Eph. 1:10) which is Jerusalem above (Gal. 4:26) our mother.

The members are being baptized into Christ (through the Gospel) to become members of that administrative body in New Jerusalem, so that we can judge the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2+3), so that they also can be summed up in Christ. Therefore, the ‘body’ (Eph. 3:6) is made up of Jew and Gentile, through the Gospel (summed up, reconciled, subjected). New Jerusalem shall be made up of angelic members and church members of the earth (Rev. 1:20). Then, through the body of Christ the angels and the world are being also subjected. In every case two groups are being gathered into one through a subjection / reconciliation / summing up process that Paul describes briefly in Eph. 1:9+10. Your insistence that the Mystery = the Gospel is just more evidence that you have yet to see it.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Paul reveals that our gospel is part of the mystery (Rom. 16:25), and our translation (1Cor. 15:51-53) and our church (Eph. 5:32) and His incarnation (1Tim. 3:16) Israel’s blindness (Rom. 11:25), etc..
Terrel,

You attempt to fracture language when you attempt to make the words "the mystery" to be in regard to many myteries.The words "the mystery" can only be in reference to "one" mystery in particular,and not to many mysteries.When Paul wants to refer to "all" the mysteries he uses the word "mysteries":

"...stewards of the mysteries of God"(1Cor.4:1).
However, in Ephesians 3:3 he refers to that entire body of knowledge as ‘the Mystery.’


“ . . . that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief . By referring to this , when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ.”(Eph.3:3,4).
Here Paul is speaking of two "mysteries".The first is "the mystery",and that is the "God's grace".

The second is the "mystery of Christ",and that is in regard to the Body of Christ.

"Surely you have heard about the dispensation of God's grace that was given to me for you,that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation,as I have already written briefly (see Eph.2:8,9).In reading this,then,you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ"(Eph.3:2-4).

Two different mysteries,and not just one.When Paul speaks of more than one mystery he uses the word "mysteries".
By reading about the ‘administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God’ (Eph. 3:9) you can gain a deeper understanding into the insight Paul has concerning the ‘mystery of Christ.’
The "administration of the mystery" is the same thing as the "administration of God's grace"(Eph.3:2) and the same thing as the "administration of the gospel"(1Cor.9:17) and the same things as Paul's "ministry"(Col.1:25).

And all these things are in regard to Paul's preaching the gospel of grace:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"(Acts20:24).
Heh. Oookay, Mickey. I am debating the topic with a person who believe the Gospel = the Mystery. Please try to describe what ‘the mystery’ is, before trying to say what it is not.
This is your way of evading what I said about the words of Paul at Col.1:27.Instead of answering those points,you jump to something else.I said that the other mysteries you listed are in fact the "riches" of "the mystery",and not "the mystery" itself.

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the glorious riches of the of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"(Col.1:25-27).

When one is saved by "believing" the "gospel of grace" (the mystery) then they receive the "glorious riches" that come by believing that gospel--such as "Christ in you,the hope of glory".

Two separate things--the "glorious riches" and "the mystery".They are not the same thing.
The teachings from the OP were developed well over a decade ago after years of study, and have withstood the test of debate and time for all these years.They are not withstanding the test of debate at this time.That is,unless you can throw your reason to the wind and suppose that Paul would refer to many different mysteries as "the mystery".
You saying what the Mystery “is not” is no argument for anything.
I have said what "the mystery" is over and over,and you know it.And anything that is not the "gospel of grace" is not "the mystery".

Your insistence that the Mystery = the Gospel is just more evidence that you have yet to see it.
Just because I cannot throw my reason to the wind and accept your idea that Paul would refer to the "mysteries" as "the mystery" does not mean that I have yet to see it.What it does mean is that you are so desperate to come up with a answer that you are willing to say that when Paul speaks of the various "mysteries" he is referring to "the mystery".

The word "mystety" is "singular" and the word "mysteries" is plural.

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey >> The "administration of the mystery" is the same thing as the "administration of God's grace"(Eph.3:2) and the same thing as the "administration of the gospel"(1Cor.9:17) and the same things as Paul's "ministry"(Col.1:25).
The ‘administration’ you are referring to in Eph. 3:2 is ‘oikonomia’ [ #3622 ] of God’s grace, which is a ‘dispensation or stewardship.’ The ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ was given to Paul as the steward. That is an entirely different topic from the ‘koinonia*’ [ #2842 ] which is an administration, as in the ‘administration* of the mystery.’ Eph. 3:9. Your phrase “of the Gospel” (1Cor. 9:17) is added by the translators. Paul is simply making reference to the ‘stewardship’ given to him in Eph. 3:2. You are confusing an ‘administration’ (Eph. 3:9) with a ‘stewardship’ neither of which is ‘the Mystery,’ but both are according to the revelation of ‘the Mystery.’
Mickey >> This is your way of evading what I said about the words of Paul at Col.1:27. Instead of answering those points,you jump to something else.
Your points are off topic, Mickey. What are we debating? Answer: Nothing in my OP. You are hijacking the thread. Go for it, but do not expect me to play along.
Terral Original >> The teachings from the OP were developed well over a decade ago after years of study, and have withstood the test of debate and time for all these years.

Mickey >> They are not withstanding the test of debate at this time. That is, unless you can throw your reason to the wind and suppose that Paul would refer to many different mysteries as "the mystery".
You have quoted four words from the OP, while going on and on about other things.
Mickey >> Just because I cannot throw my reason to the wind and accept your idea that Paul would refer to the "mysteries" as "the mystery" does not mean that I have yet to see it. What it does mean is that you are so desperate to come up with a answer that you are willing to say that when Paul speaks of the various "mysteries" he is referring to "the mystery".
Desperate? Try writing on the topic of the OP for once.
Mickey >> The word "mystety" is "singular" and the word "mysteries" is plural.

“. . . and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
What is Paul talking about in saying the ‘manifold wisdom’ of God being made known through us to the higher powers? This term manifold (polupoikilos #4182) is used only this once in Scripture. It means, “much varied” from the root word “pollaplasion” meaning “many times more” (Luke 18:30). You should get onto to Paul for attaching this word to God’s Hidden Wisdom being spoken in a Mystery (1Cor. 2:7).

I am very happy that you see our gospel as being part of the ‘revelation of the mystery.’ That is ‘the Mystery 101’ and the most basic lesson to be learned about the manifold wisdom of God. The summing up of all things ‘in’ Christ (Eph. 1:9+10) is the precursor and basic foundation block describing the formula present in each aspect of ‘the Mystery.’ When someone begins speaking about our translation into immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53), you can say, “Yes, that is according to the revelation of ‘the Mystery.’ Eph. 3:3 (1Cor. 15:51). Israel’s blindness to these things is another teaching that is according to the revelation of the mystery. Rom. 11:25. Even the ‘mystery of lawlessness’ (2Thes. 2:7) is one aspect and one teaching that relates to the revelation of ‘the Mystery’ given to Paul, which is now going to the world through the Church. The only problem is that practically nobody among the professing Christians can write three paragraphs using Scripture to describe exactly what Paul is teaching in that chapter. And, should one with knowledge on the topic try to present those things in great detail, then someone would come along and disagree while writing about another topic entirely. All of your preaching the gospel lingo is off topic of the OP. Perhaps start a thread on the mystery of the gospel? Eph. 6:19?

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Mickey:

The ‘administration’ you are referring to in Eph. 3:2 is ‘oikonomia’ [ #3622 ] of God’s grace, which is a ‘dispensation or stewardship.’ The ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ was given to Paul as the steward. That is an entirely different topic from the ‘koinonia*’ [ #2842 ] which is an administration, as in the ‘administration* of the mystery.’ Eph. 3:9.
Terral,

Give me one Greek expert that says that "koinonia" means "administration".
Your phrase “of the Gospel” (1Cor. 9:17) is added by the translators.
Yes,and for a reason.The "context" demands it.Over and over Paul refers to "preaching the gospel".
Paul is simply making reference to the ‘stewardship’ given to him in Eph. 3:2. You are confusing an ‘administration’ (Eph. 3:9) with a ‘stewardship’ neither of which is ‘the Mystery,’ but both are according to the revelation of ‘the Mystery.’
Again,where do you get the idea that the word "koinonia" means "administration".You obviously have access to a Greek Lexicon,so give me the proof.

Your points are off topic, Mickey. What are we debating? Answer: Nothing in my OP. You are hijacking the thread. Go for it, but do not expect me to play along.The "topic" is "the mystery".And I am arguing that "the mystery" is the gospel.Cornelius Stam,the founder of the Berean Bible Society (Mid Acts),also says that "the mystery" is the gospel which we are to preach today.Sir Robert Anderson,the father of modern Mid Acts dispensationalism,also says that the gospel which we are to preach today is "the mystery".
Try writing on the topic of the OP for once.
I have been exposing what you wrote in the OP as being in error,but despite that fact you say that I am off topic!

I am very happy that you see our gospel as being part of the ‘revelation of the mystery.’
It is not just "a part" of "the mystery",but instead it is "the mystery":

"Surely you have heard of the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation"(Eph.3:2-3).
That is ‘the Mystery 101’ and the most basic lesson to be learned about the manifold wisdom of God. The summing up of all things ‘in’ Christ (Eph. 1:9+10) is the precursor and basic foundation block describing the formula present in each aspect of ‘the Mystery.’ When someone begins speaking about our translation into immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53), you can say, “Yes, that is according to the revelation of ‘the Mystery.’ Eph. 3:3 (1Cor. 15:51).
No,it is not according to the revelation of the mystery.Instead,it is a part of the "glorious riches" that comes to those who believe "the mystery".

You are referring to "the hope of glory",when the believer will put on glorious bodies like the Lord's body.And that in itself is called the "glorious riches" of "the mystery".But it is not "the mystery" as you would have us believe:

"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the glorius riches of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"(Col.1:26,27).

The "glorious riches" of "the mystery" is not the same thing as "the mystery" itself.
Israel’s blindness to these things is another teaching that is according to the revelation of the mystery. Rom. 11:25. Even the ‘mystery of lawlessness’ (2Thes. 2:7) is one aspect and one teaching that relates to the revelation of ‘the Mystery’ given to Paul, which is now going to the world through the Church.
Again,you fail to understand the weakness of your argument.When Paul talks about "the mystery" he is speaking of "one" mystery,and not many.

No matter how many times you say it,the fact of the matter is that the words "the mystery" refers to only "one" mystery.If Paul meant to say "the mysteries" then I am sure that he would have said just that.But he did not!

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Hi Mickey:
Terral Original >> The ‘administration’ you are referring to in Eph. 3:2 is ‘oikonomia’ [ #3622 ] of God’s grace, which is a ‘dispensation or stewardship.’ The ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ was given to Paul as the steward. That is an entirely different topic from the ‘koinonia*’ [ #2842 ] which is an administration, as in the ‘administration* of the mystery.’ Eph. 3:9.

Mickey >> Give me one Greek expert that says that "koinonia" means "administration".
Lockman Foundation Scholars of the NASB translates it ‘administration’ in Eph. 3:9. More accurately the Greek means a ‘fellowship or association’ or ‘joint participation.’ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/2/1103697414-6082.html (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/2/1103697414-6082.html)

This is not ‘oikonomia’ you are trying to compare it to above in Eph. 3:2. Paul is not describing the ‘gospel’ being ‘the mystery’ here in Ephesians 3. You are missing the ‘summing up’ (before in brief; Eph. 1:9+10) aspect of his teaching with your desperate attempts in man-handling the Greek.
Terral Original >> Your phrase “of the Gospel” (1Cor. 9:17) is added by the translators.

Mickey >> Yes, and for a reason. The "context" demands it. Over and over Paul refers to "preaching the gospel".
Heh. No sir. Again, your desperation is showing. Paul is talking about the ‘stewardship’ that was given to him by God (Eph. 3:2). You are reading the ‘preaching’ into that verse from the transliteration of your scholars. Please do not base your argument on what they added to the Text.
Terral Original >> Your points are off topic, Mickey. What are we debating? Answer: Nothing in my OP. You are hijacking the thread. Go for it, but do not expect me to play along.

Mickey >> The "topic" is "the mystery". And I am arguing that "the mystery" is the gospel. Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society (Mid Acts), also says that "the mystery" is the gospel which we are to preach today. Sir Robert Anderson, the father of modern Mid Acts dispensationalism, also says that the gospel which we are to preach today is "the mystery".
I have read all of Stam’s books, and he is wrong about many things. Dispensationalist propaganda is no evidence of anything. Please support your off topic statements using Scripture. I would like to respond to something you wrote about the OP, but unfortunately you never addressed the topic. You made your point already that you feel the Gospel = the Mystery. I heard you the first time, and we most definitely disagree. We already know that . . .

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey:

Lockman Foundation Scholars of the NASB translates it ‘administration’ in Eph. 3:9. More accurately the Greek means a ‘fellowship or association’ or ‘joint participation.’ http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/2/1103697414-6082.html (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/2/1103697414-6082.html)
Terral,

The word "administration" does not mean "fellowship or association or joint participation".So I wonder why the NASB tranlates it "administration".

According to Charles Ryrie,the Greek word at Eph. 3:9 is the noun "oikonomia" (Ryrie,"Dispensationalism",p.25),and that word does mean "stewardship" or "dispensation" or "administration".

Perhaps in this case the NASB did not use the received text.Please consider the following:
The Textus Receptus uses the Greek word, koinwnia (fellowship). However, almost all Greek manuscripts of this passage use the Greek word, oikonomia (dispensation or stewardship). To this, James White states,
We have already noted the fact that the TR has a very unusual reading of "fellowship," found only in the margin of minuscule manuscript 31 and a few other very late manuscripts, rather than the reading of all uncials, 99% of the minuscules, and all the early Fathers, which have "administration." (White, King James Only Controversy, 179.)

http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/eph3_9.htm
However,the Greek word "koinonia" does not mean administration.So perhaps the NASB also think that the Greek word there is "oikonomia" and not "koinonia". And if that is true,then once again I will say that the "dispensation of the mystery" is the same thing as the "dispensation of the ministry" which Paul recived and it is also the same things as the "dispensation of God's grace".
This is not ‘oikonomia’ you are trying to compare it to above in Eph. 3:2. Paul is not describing the ‘gospel’ being ‘the mystery’ here in Ephesians 3. You are missing the ‘summing up’ (before in brief; Eph. 1:9+10) aspect of his teaching with your desperate attempts in man-handling the Greek.
It is you who attempts to make "the mysteries" into the same thing as "the mystery".
Again, your desperation is showing.
If it is me whgo is desperate why do you continue to evade the fact that Paul calls the things you say are "the mystery" as the "glorious riches of the mystery" but not "the mystery" itself.
Paul is talking about the ‘stewardship’ that was given to him by God (Eph. 3:2). You are reading the ‘preaching’ into that verse from the transliteration of your scholars. Please do not base your argument on what they added to the Text.
Yes,and at Col.1:25 Paul says that the dispensation of God that he received is in regard to his "ministry".He also says that the same dispensation is in regard to "God's grace".

So here we can see Paul's own words in regard to exactly what his dispensation from God consisted of:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"(Acts20:24).

The facts are clear.Paul says that his "dispensation" or "stewardship" which he received of the Lord is in regard to his "ministry",and he says that that "ministry" is "to testify the gospel of the grace of God".

In Christ,

Mickey

[Amazing Rando]

:zzz:

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey >> And if that is true, then once again I will say that the "dispensation of the mystery" is the same thing as the "dispensation of the ministry" which Paul recived and it is also the same things as the "dispensation of God's grace".
Yes. The Received Text has the word “koivwvia” (koinonia) in Eph. 3:9. But Ministry does not equal Mystery, according to your logic above.
Terral Original >> Paul is talking about the ‘stewardship’ that was given to him by God (Eph. 3:2). You are reading the ‘preaching’ into that verse from the transliteration of your scholars. Please do not base your argument on what they added to the Text.

Mickey >> Yes, and at Col.1:25 Paul says that the dispensation of God that he received is in regard to his "ministry". He also says that the same dispensation is in regard to "God's grace".
Paul is describing the same ‘stewardship’ (Eph. 3:2) given to him from God.
Mickey >> So here we can see Paul's own words in regard to exactly what his dispensation from God consisted of . . .
Please start a thread on the topic of Paul’s stewardship, which includes his preaching of the gospel.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Mickey:

Yes. The Received Text has the word “koivwvia” (koinonia) in Eph. 3:9. But Ministry does not equal Mystery, according to your logic above.
Terral,

Let us look at what 99% of the texts say:

"And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ"(Eph.3:9).

Here Paul speaks of the "dispensation of the mystery".And the following verse demonstrates that the "dispensation" is in regards to Paul's ministry:

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God"(Col.1:25).

We can also see that Paul's dispensation is also in regard to "God's grace":

"Surely you have heard about the dispensation of God's grace that was given to me for you,that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation"(Eph.3:2,3).

So the "dispensation of the mystery" is in regard to Paul's "ministry" and also in regard to "God's grace".Therefore,we can see that Paul sums up the "dispensation of the mystery" with the following words:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"(Acts20:24).

And that is exactly what was preached to "all nations":

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began... made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"(Ro.16:25,26).

Paul makes it plain that it was the "gospel of grace" that was preached to all the world:

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth"(Col.1:5,6).

So simple!But you go on and on attempting to make the "mysteries" the same thing as "the mystery".

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey >> Here Paul speaks of the "dispensation of the mystery". And the following verse demonstrates that the "dispensation" is in regards to Paul's ministry:
The OP is not about the dispensation of anything. This thread is not about Paul’s stewardship or his preaching of the gospel.

“For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles -- if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, AS I WROTE BEFORE IN BRIEF [ Eph. 1:9+10 ]. By referring to this [ here in Eph. 3 ], when you read you can understand my insight into the Mystery of Christ.”
Have we heard of the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ given to Paul for ‘you Gentiles.’ Yes. That includes the preaching of the gospel and the dispensing of Grace Doctrine to the ‘body of Christ’ church. However, Paul continues to say that by revelation there was made known to him ‘the mystery,’ as he wrote about in brief. The only previous mention of the ‘mystery’ is in Eph. 1:9+10.

“He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.”
Paul’s descriptions of ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) being described here in brief have to do with the ‘mystery of His will,’ i.e., God’s will, and His ‘purpose for the ages’ (Eph. 3:11). As Paul is clearly stating above, this is about the summing up of all things ‘in’ Christ in the heavens and things on the earth. Keep in mind that ‘in’ Him all things hold together.

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
Paul is describing Christ as much more than a mere man coming to sit upon an earthly throne, which is Mickey’s underlying hypothesis and holy grail. Paul is describing the Son of God being the very gravity and life force that binds everything in the universe together. We are at odds over the true meaning of Paul’s use of the term “musterion,” because of the very nature and true essence of what Scripture is conveying.

“Musterion = primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generation: but now hath it been manifested to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .” http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/find_term.pl (http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/find_term.pl) See the full definition here.
We are being reconciled to God through obedience to the gospel, which is indeed according to the ‘revelation of the mystery.’ Rom. 16:25. This aspect of God’s hidden wisdom (1Cor. 2:7) was kept a secret to be revealed after Calvary. The message of truth (Eph. 1:13) is also the tool through which God is summing us up, and baptizing us (1Cor. 12:13) into Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27). This is the same formula and process Paul is describing in Eph. 1:9+10 with the summing up of all things. The difference is that our reconciliation and baptism into Christ is a smaller version or a microcosm of the greater “mystery of Christ” being described as the ‘mystery of His will’ for all things. Our mystery ‘church’ (Eph. 5:32) is just one small part of the overall summing up process that encompasses everything invisible (heavens; Gen. 1:1) and visible (earth; Gen. 1:1) in the whole universe. Our mystery church is one part of the ‘administration of the mystery’ (Eph. 3:9), as members of the New Jerusalem (above; Gal. 4:12) administration that is part of our future. It is from there that we shall judge the world (from the seen realms) and the angels (from the unseen realms). 1Cor. 6:2+3. Therefore, our membership in that administration is also a microcosm of the greater ‘mystery of His will’ (Eph. 1:9) for the entire universe. When we read about the ‘administration of the mystery’ in Ephesians Chapter Three, then we can gain insight into the greater ‘mystery of Christ’ Paul described in brief in Eph. 1:9. That is the blueprint for understanding every facet of ‘the mystery’ revealed to Paul.

Tying the whole teaching together is about God deciding that the appointed time has come for you to be illumined by His Spirit into these things. This knowledge is withheld and becomes truth revealed at the time of His choosing, according to the true definition of the term. Therefore, when you finally come to see it, then you will also come under scrutiny for teaching about things that others see differently. That is the way it has always been for those teaching the truth on the Mystery from the Pauline Epistles.

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Mickey:

The OP is not about the dispensation of anything. This thread is not about Paul’s stewardship or his preaching of the gospel.
This thread is about "the mystery",and Paul speaks of the "dispensation of the mystery".The same "dispensation" is indeed in regard to Paul's ministry and his stweardship to preach "the mystery".

"And to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ"(Eph.3:9).

Here Paul speaks of the "dispensation of the mystery".And the following verse demonstrates that the "dispensation" is in regards to Paul's ministry:

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God"(Col.1:25).

We can also see that Paul's dispensation is also in regard to "God's grace":

"Surely you have heard about the dispensation of God's grace that was given to me for you,that is,the mystery made known to me by revelation"(Eph.3:2,3).

So the "dispensation of the mystery" is in regard to Paul's "ministry" and also in regard to "God's grace".Therefore,we can see that Paul sums up the "dispensation of the mystery" with the following words:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God"(Acts20:24).

And that is exactly what was preached to "all nations":

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began... made known to all nations for the obedience of faith"(Ro.16:25,26).

You jus ignore all of this testimony and continue in your fruitless attempt to make "the mysteries" the same thing as "the mystery".

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Mickey >> And that is exactly what was preached to "all nations". . .
We agree, but that is not the topic. Please take that to the 'gospel' thread. This thread is about 'the mystery' (Eph. 3:3) about which Paul wrote before in brief (Eph. 1:9+10), i.e., the 'mystery of His will,' and the summing up of ‘all things’ in Christ. You do not get it, Mickey, and we already know that for an absolute fact. Why belabor the point? So, where does the ‘summing up’ of all things fit into your understanding of the Mystery of His will? Or do you believe that every time Paul says the word ‘mystery’ he is talking about the gospel? What does the summing up of all things mean to Mickey?

In Christ,

Terral

[Mickey]

Mickey:

This thread is about 'the mystery' (Eph. 3:3) about which Paul wrote before in brief (Eph. 1:9+10), i.e., the 'mystery of His will,' and the summing up of ‘all things’ in Christ.
The only translation that says "the summing up" of all things in Christ is the NASB.I happen to think that the correct translation is "that He might gather together in One all things in Christ".

This refers to the "dispensation of the fullness of times",or the "eternal state".
So, where does the ‘summing up’ of all things fit into your understanding of the Mystery of His will?
This refers to the time when those in heaven and those on earth will be gathered to Him.

At that time He will offer up the kingdom to the Father.
Or do you believe that every time Paul says the word ‘mystery’ he is talking about the gospel? What does the summing up of all things mean to Mickey?
No,when Paul speaks of "the mystery" he is referring to the "gospel of grace".But there are other mysteries,and those mysteries are a part of the "glorious riches" that come to those who believe "the mystery".

And here is what Thayer says about "the gathering together":

"In Eph.i.10 God said ....,to bring together again for HImself all things and beings (hitherto disunited by sin) into one combined state of fellowship with Christ,the universal bond"("Thayer's Greek Lexicon").

What do you think is the meaning of the words "the dispensation of the fullness of time"?

In Christ,

Mickey

[Terral]

Mickey:
Terral Original >> This thread is about 'the mystery' (Eph. 3:3) about which Paul wrote before in brief (Eph. 1:9+10), i.e., the 'mystery of His will,' and the summing up of ‘all things’ in Christ.

Mickey >> The only translation that says "the summing up" of all things in Christ is the NASB. I happen to think that the correct translation is "that He might gather together in One all things in Christ". This refers to the "dispensation of the fullness of times", or the "eternal state".
You know we are discussing the terms given in the Greek, and that the translations do not matter. Your reply is not saying anything at all.
Terral’s Question >> So, where does the ‘summing up’ of all things fit into your understanding of the Mystery of His will?

Mickey >> This refers to the time when those* in heaven and those on earth will be gathered to Him. At that time He will offer up the kingdom to the Father.
Scripture says ‘in’ Him, and not ‘to’ Him. Eph. 1:10. You are saying ‘those*’ as in ‘beings,’ when Scripture says ‘all things’ over and over again.

“He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of “all things in Christ,” things in the heavens and things on the earth.”

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
Terral’s Question >> Or do you believe that every time Paul says the word ‘mystery’ he is talking about the gospel? What does the summing up of all things mean to Mickey?

Mickey Off Topic Comment >> No, when Paul speaks of "the mystery" he is referring to the "gospel of grace". But there are other mysteries, and those mysteries are a part of the "glorious riches" that come to those who believe "the mystery".
Here is the deal, Mickey: You are incapable of visualizing through the Spirit any concept of ‘all things’ being ‘summed up’ IN Christ Jesus. You have this mental image of a man coming to sit on the throne of David, and that these things are going to be ‘gathered to’ Him like an assortment of trinkets or toys. Christ Jesus is the ‘force’ of Star Wars that binds all things together, and through which everything is made. He is the active consciousness of all men (John 1:4) and the reason life (John 14:6) is able to exist inside this temporal realm we know as the universe. Paul’s teaching on the Mystery is much higher, wider and deeper than you are currently willing to acknowledge.
Mickey >> And here is what Thayer says about "the gathering together":
Dispensationalist dogma does not mean anything.
Mickey Asks >> What do you think is the meaning of the words "the dispensation of the fullness of time"?
If we throw out the Received Text and use the Critical Text use of ‘oikonomia,’ then that term still has a variety of meanings, depending upon the context.

“oikonomia - primarily signifies "the management of a household or of household affairs" (oikos, "a house," nomos, "a law"); then the management or administration of the property of others, and so "a stewardship," Luke_16:2-4; elsewhere only in the Epistles of Paul, who applies it:

(a) to the responsibility entrusted to him of preaching the Gospel, 1_Cor_9:17 (RV, "stewardship," AV, "dispensation");

(b) to the stewardship committed to him "to fulfill the Word of God," the fulfillment being the unfolding of the completion of the Divinely arranged and IMPARTED CYCLE OF TRUTHS which are consummated in THE TRUTH relating to the CHURCH as the BODY OF CHRIST, Col_1:25 (RV and AV, "dispensation"); so in Eph_3:2, of the GRACE OF GOD given him as a STEWARDSHIP ("dispensation") in regard to the same "Mystery;"

(c) in Eph_1:10; Eph_3:9, it is used of the arrangement or administration* by God, by which in "the fullness of the times" (or seasons) God will sum up all things in the heavens and on earth “IN” Christ. In Eph_3:9 some mss. have koinonia, "fellowship," for oikonomia, "dispensation." In 1_Tim_1:4 oikonomia may mean either a stewardship in the sense of 1(a) above, or a "dispensation" in the sense of 1(c). The reading oikodomia, "edifying," in some mss., is not to be accepted. See STEWARDSHIP.

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration* of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
Paul is teaching about an ‘administration’ suitable for the summing up of all things ‘in’ Christ Jesus. He is describing the heavenly arrangement of the administrative body that shall carry out the inner workings of this summing up process, which Paul describes as being ‘the church.’ It is through the ‘gospel’ that the believers are brought into this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Eph. 3:2) and that ‘mode of dealing.’ Please pay careful attention this time around, Mickey, as your point about ‘the mystery’ being ‘the gospel’ is refuted here.

“To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ [ the gospel ], AND [ in addition to ] to bring to light what is the administration* of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose [ purpose for the ages ] which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.”
Vines is also showing that the ‘administration of the mystery’ (Eph. 3:9) and the ‘mystery of His will’ (Eph. 1:10) are both related to this ‘summing up’ of ‘all things,’ which Paul describes briefly in Eph. 1:9+10, according to definition “c” of ‘oikonomia.’ If you ever get around to drawing any of the diagrams from the OP, then the ‘spirit’ and ‘water’ parts are summed up into the begotten ‘blood’ part in each of the triune relationships.

In Christ,

Terral

[Xavier]

Hey Terral,

There are some issues with TWeb at the moment that are causing problems with our custom tag set. One of those tags is the VERSE tag. The problem is being worked on and will be fixed in the future. In the meantime, the tags will not parse and remain as plain text. When the problem is fixed, they will render correctly.

Yours,
Xavier

[Lizard]

Hey Terral. Out of curiosity, what is the basis for this "master blueprint" of yours?

[Hitch]

That simple drawing is the master blueprint for every mystery process in the Bible. What you can do with that little picture is like magic for discovering God’s secrets hidden in the Text

Getting a dozen carrots for a dime is magic.

[Hitch]

Note: A "dispensation" is not a period or epoch (a common, but erroneous, use of the word), but a mode of dealing, an arrangement, or administration* of affairs. Cp. oikonomos, "a steward," and oikonomeo, "to be a steward."
Hmmmm

A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. Seven such dispensations are distinguished in Scripture SRB p 5, 19717 ed


Interesting that even though there is no agreed upon definition quite often the same number of 'dispensations' are discovered, and usually given the same names. This is especially odd since what makes and/or does not make a 'dispensation' unique must be found in the definition.

[Terral]

Faramir:
Faramir >> Hey Terral. Out of curiosity, what is the basis for this "master blueprint" of yours?
The Master Blueprint from which every Mystery relationship is described is from the one that exists between God Almighty (John 1:1), the Word / Son (John 1:2) and Creation (John 1:3). I discuss these things in greater depth on other sites where the members are more mature. Nobody here is ready for the deep side of the pool . . .

terralcroft@hotmail.com (terralcroft@hotmail.com) if anyone is interested. I cannot give URL’s out on this Board, because that is advertising another site. The Mods here are control freaks who pass out warnings over nothing, which is why I spend my time elsewhere.

In Christ,

Terral

[Lizard]

Faramir:

The Master Blueprint from which every Mystery relationship is described is from the one that exists between God Almighty (John 1:1), the Word / Son (John 1:2) and Creation (John 1:3). I discuss these things in greater depth on other sites where the members are more mature. Nobody here is ready for the deep side of the pool . . .

terralcroft@hotmail.com (terralcroft@hotmail.com) if anyone is interested. I cannot give URL’s out on this Board, because that is advertising another site. The Mods here are control freaks who pass out warnings over nothing, which is why I spend my time elsewhere.

In Christ,

Terral

Well Terral the rules are there for a reason. The idea is for our guest not to have to chase all over the internet for discussion, and for our discussion, to require input, not just "argument by weblink". If you are unwilling to discuss this here, then fine. But if won't give us the details here, [sarcasm]where your enlightenment is so needed because we are so imature[/sarcsasm] then don't expect us to accept it on your assertion alone.

To the rest of you imature TWebers:

Is it just me or is Terral starting to sound an awful lot like a proponendt of gnosticism? "I have special and secret knowledge that only those who are worthy can understand"

I ask an honest question, looking for an honest answer. I really wanted to know, but Terral the great has determined that I am not worthy. I should have known better than to expect a real answer from Terral. But I asked anyway. I guess that is what Terral means by immature.

[Amazing Rando]

Well Terral the rules are there for a reason. The idea is for our guest not to have to chase all over the internet for discussion, and for our discussion, to require input, not just "argument by weblink". If you are unwilling to discuss this here, then fine. But if won't give us the details here, where your enlightenment is so needed because we are so imature then don't expect us to accept it on your assertion alone.

To the rest of you imature TWebers:

Is it just me or is Terral starting to sound an awful lot like a proponendt of gnosticism? "I have special and secret knowledge that only those who are worthy can understand"

I ask an honest question, looking for an honest answer. I really wanted to know, but Terral the great has determined that I am not worthy. I should have known better than to expect a real answer from Terral. But I asked anyway. I guess that is what Terral means by immature.

But Faramir- everybody knows that this chart (http://www.biblicalanswers.com/chart_12dispensations.htm) is the "Master Blueprint" of the Bible! It clearly lays out the twelve dispensations and how God completely changed the rules on his people willy-nilly. That's the Master Blueprint.

[Lizard]

No. Not chartses. They Burnses us. They Burnssssssss.

:gollum:

[A Cup of No]

To the rest of you imature TWebers:

Is it just me or is Terral starting to sound an awful lot like a proponendt of gnosticism? "I have special and secret knowledge that only those who are worthy can understand"

I ask an honest question, looking for an honest answer. I really wanted to know, but Terral the great has determined that I am not worthy. I should have known better than to expect a real answer from Terral. But I asked anyway. I guess that is what Terral means by immature.

I guess some of us are just born unworthy... :bawl: And I can't exactly answer if it sounds like gnosticism yet 'cause I haven't referred to the Master Blueprint for guidance in this matter. I'll get back to you.

[Terral]

Faramir:
Faramir >> Is it just me or is Terral starting to sound an awful lot like a proponendt of gnosticism? "I have special and secret knowledge that only those who are worthy can understand"
Proponent of Gnosticism? Please . . . Scripture says,

“Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

Peter says that this ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul) is ‘hard to understand’ and that people like you are distorting it to their ‘own destruction.’ (2Pet. 3:14-16). I presented a way to visualize many of the mystery processes in the OP of this thread. If you have a question on a specific part, then “Quote me” and ask away. My personal view is that “no” you are not nearly worthy to even begin to see the things relating to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3). However, I shall try to put my opinions aside, when answering your post.
Faramir >> I ask an honest question, looking for an honest answer.
And you received the answer to your query, which is also described in the OP if you took the time to actually read it and do the diagrams.
Faramir >> I really wanted to know, but Terral the great has determined that I am not worthy. I should have known better than to expect a real answer from Terral. But I asked anyway. I guess that is what Terral means by immature.
Once again you write “Terral, Terral, Terral” in your posts that do not say very much. Simply “Quote me” from the OP, ask any questions, and I am happy to explain things for the benefit of the third party readers of this Board.

In Christ,

Terral

[Lizard]

Faramir:

Proponent of Gnosticism? Please . . . Scripture says,

“Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

Peter says that this ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul) is ‘hard to understand’ and that people like you are distorting it to their ‘own destruction.’ (2Pet. 3:14-16). I presented a way to visualize many of the mystery processes in the OP of this thread. If you have a question on a specific part, then “Quote me” and ask away.


I did that already, (though I only put it in quotion marks and not in quote tags, it should have been clear, but apparently not.)

Faramir >> Hey Terral. Out of curiosity, what is the basis for this "master blueprint" of yours?

Since you did not get the question the first time, let me spell it out for you:

That simple drawing is the master blueprint for every mystery process in the Bible.

Where did you find this "master blueprint"? Did you make it up yourself? Is it the work of someone else? What biblical justification to you have to equate all of what you call "mystery process in the Bible" as one "process"?

And you received the answer to your query, which is also described in the OP if you took the time to actually read it and do the diagrams.

Once again you write “Terral, Terral, Terral” in your posts that do not say very much. Simply “Quote me” from the OP, ask any questions, and I am happy to explain things for the benefit of the third party readers of this Board.

OK I asked questions. Specific questions (though these specific question can be presumed from the general question "What is the basis for you 'master bluepring' ")
My personal view is that “no” you are not nearly worthy to even begin to see the things relating to ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3). However, I shall try to put my opinions aside, when answering your post.
My personal veiw is that Terral will come back with some more attack on me and the others on this board who disagree with him, and that his "Master Blueprint" is something he made up himself to fit his 'pet theory' or is made up by a proponent of this same theory. But I will try to put my opinions aside when asnering his post.

:rofl: Does anyone else love the way Terral states his low opinion of me, then in the next breath states that he will try to put his opinions aside.

Methinks you need to try harder.

But please do not spare you jabs at me on my account. There are some people who you are glad do not think highly of you.

It is really quite simple. It is quite easy to some up with some "chart" or "diagram" to explain your theory after the fact. I strongly suspect that werever this diagram came from, that it was created with the specific intent to support your theory. Futurist do this all the time with charts.

This type of "diagram" is hardly authoritative. But I have been trying to give you the opportunity to show me that I am wrong. So far all you have done is tell me I am not worthy or mature enough"

I would really like to know where this diagram originated. Is that really too much to ask??????






Edit to add: You are so big about saying "Just quote me" and when I do, you run and hide.

I quoted you here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53339). 1) Regarding your "10 Questions that you said would drive preterist away" Well, I'm still here. :tongue: But I also quoted you where you were caught being less than honest. My guess is that is why you are avoiding me in that thread.

Well if you won't come to me, I will be more than happy to bring it to you.

[Terral]

Faramir:
Faramir >> Hey Terral. Out of curiosity, what is the basis for this "master blueprint" of yours?
This question was answered for you in Post #28 of this thread. The Master Type for all the mystery processes in Scripture exists in the relationships between our Infinite God Almighty (John 1:1; spirit) and His Creation (John 1:3; water) through His Word / Son (John 1:2; blood). Draw two large overlapping circles on a blank sheet of paper to create three equal sections. In the left section write “God Almighty / Spirit (John 1:1)” and in the right semicircle section write “Creation / Water (John 1:3)”. Note that the central section is ‘begotten’ in the process of drawing your two circles. Inside that section write “Word / Son / Blood (John 1:2)”. This diagram demonstrates the way in which Christ Himself is “God’s Mystery.” (Col. 2:2), as all things in the heavens (unseen) AND earth (seen) shall be summed up into (Eph. 1:9+10) AND subjected to (1Cor. 15:27) the Son. Only then can the Son Himself be subjected back to our Infinite Almighty God standing beyond the veil of time and space, so that He may be ‘all in all.’ 1Cor. 15:28.

The “Mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) is a microcosm of the greater “God’s Mystery” described above in that the two (heavens and earth) are being summed up ‘in’ Christ Jesus. This is demonstrated by the same diagram used above, but the heavens go into the ‘spirit’ sphere, while the earth goes into the ‘water’ sphere and all things are being summed up into the agency (Kingdom) of ‘heaven.’ Heaven is the begotten realm of Genesis 1:8, that was called into being when the heavens and earth (Gen. 1:1) were ripped apart (darkness upon face of the deep; Gen. 1:2) and then joined / married together again (waters above TO waters below). Heaven ‘became’ the ‘expanse in the MIDST (tavek #8432 = middle)’ of the waters’ (Gen. 1:6) in the same way that the Word / Son appears as the girdle between God Almighty and His Creation of your first diagram. We are to view the two original circles (spirit and water) as two large beach balls in either hand of God Almighty. He slowly brings the two together until they suddenly touch and begin to overlap. While the central (blood) section is ‘begotten’ in this process, it grows / enlarges to eventually engulf the original two realms completely and become One solid sphere that represents the sign of the ‘stone.’

These diagrams can reveal the processes through which the Son was ‘begotten,’ woman was taken from man, how heaven shall eventually sum up the heavens and the earth, the way Jew and Gentile are baptized into Christ and the ‘one body,’ etc.. The types even reveal that we shall be translated into an infinite existence where God Almighty is standing frozen and motionless right now as we speak. While we anticipate being translated into immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) that process takes place within this temporal realm, or the “Water” sphere of the Master Type given above that contains ‘heavens / earth AND heaven.’ It is through that process that we become citizens of ‘heaven’ (Phil. 3:20). We are still part of the greater “God’s Mystery” process that shall see us translated from this temporal realm into His Infinite Realm at the end of the ages. Therefore, while the topics relating to Prophecy are indeed finite, the body of knowledge and wisdom relating to “God’s Hidden” Wisdom “in a Mystery” (1Cor. 2:7) is truly I.N.F.I.N.I.T.E. Whether you wish to explore any of the triune relationships between God, His Creation and His Son; heavens, earth and heaven; the Holy of Holies, the Court and the Holy Place; male, female and their begotten seed; or even your own spirit, body and soul, the same two overlapping circle diagram represents the Master Blueprint to describe those ongoing summing up / subjection processes.
Faramir >> Since you did not get the question the first time, let me spell it out for you:

Originally posted by Terral in the OP >> That simple drawing is the master blueprint for every mystery process in the Bible.

Faramir >> Where did you find this "master blueprint"?
The Master Blueprint was discovered during years of prayer and study on this topic while writing letters of instruction to the body of Christ in the world today. The key came in the realization that a relationship existed between “the Mystery” (Eph. 3:1-3) described as a ‘summing up PROCESS’ in brief (Eph. 1:9+10) AND the three witnesses (spirit, water and blood) of 1John 5:8. It was about that time that the Spirit of God led me to realize that the Scriptures are also laid out in this triune spirit (OT), water (13 Kingdom NT Epistles) and blood (13 Grace Pauline Epistles) Master Blueprint format (Acts = Veil of the Tabernacle). While the Son is One with the Father (John 10:30; shares one complete orb), the Pauline Epistles also share a complete sphere with the spirit part (OT) and the water part (Kingdom NT) at the very same time. Therefore, certain components of ‘the Mystery’ are veiled within OT and Kingdom Epistles of our NT. You will never begin to solve the more difficult riddles relating to the Mystery, until you recognize Scripture itself as a map to hidden treasures. God Almighty Himself has placed a myriad of keys throughout the Text that unlock doors and turn on the lights to the passages and corridors within the massive structure that lead you into the even deeper things. Scripture itself represents a living ‘blueprint’ revealing the rooms and dwelling places of ‘the’ truth within His Living Word. Therefore, I am not sharing with you the things I have learned from men; but the things revealed from the Spirit of the Text, as He communes with the Holy Spirit “IN” me (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19). More than describing for you the things I have gathered from the commentary of men, I am revealing to you the things I see by the Spirit; which are also given in the Text. The things I see by the Spirit that are not described in the Holy Text I am NOT permitted to share with you. God Himself is the wise Master Builder to decide who shall and NEVER will see His Hidden Wisdom.
Faramir >> Did you make it up yourself?
While I would love to take all the credit for developing this teaching tool for visualizing the many mystery processes from the Text, the Spirit of God Almighty Himself provided the cipher that unlocked the code so that all these things could be revealed. If you are asking whether I received any of these things from mortal men, then “No.” On the contrary, men who see not and hear not have done everything to place stumbling blocks in my way. The Spirit of the Text is Living and Active (my signature verse below; Heb. 4:12) but has no power to work inside the natural man. However, being the ‘water’ of His Word, He can overlap and intermingle with the Holy Spirit ‘in’ you. Note carefully that the same relationship exists between the Father (spirit), Holy Spirit (water) and the Son (blood). Christ is ‘in’ my soul (Col. 1:27) AND the ‘the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead’ (Rom. 8:11) also dwells in my spirit. This is what it truly means to be ‘spiritual,’ as in:

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Faramir >> Is it the work of someone else?

No. Any similar series of drawings used to depict these things came originally from my hand. The doctrine of our triune Text is taught from precepts derived from working through the mystery diagrams depicting God / His Word / Creation at the very top and oil / broken seed / water (+fire = bread) at the very bottom. Some among you shall be witnesses of God ‘in’ me being glorified at the judgment (2Cor. 5:10) with gold and precious stones for bringing these things into the Light for the benefit of the maturing of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:11-13).
Faramir >> What biblical justification to you have to equate all of what you call "mystery process in the Bible" as one "process"?
That is a good question that actually applies to the ‘topic’ without attacking so much my ‘person.’ God (John 1:1) called all things into being (John 1:3) through His Word (John 1:2). The end result is that all things (seen and unseen) shall eventually be subjected back to (1Cor. 15:27) AND summed up (Eph. 1:9+10) into the Son. Stand with me outside the boundaries of this creation (if you can) and visualize this process occurring in the flash of a single instant, while looking over the shoulder of our Infinite Almighty God. He is holding the Father (spirit) and Holy Spirit (water) in either hand in the same way that the Lord God fashioned Adam from the breath of life (spirit) AND the dust of the ground (water) so that he ‘became a living soul’ (blood). Gen. 2:7. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit represent the Heavenly Man / Tabernacle / Temple IN which the Spirit of Almighty God dwells (Col. 2:9). Christ is the ‘bread of life’ (John 6:48, 51), because the Father AND Holy Spirit dwell IN Him, which makes Him the spirit, water and blood (3 into the 1) ‘image of the invisible God’ (Col. 1:15). Therefore, the central (Son) section that is ‘begotten’ to begin the entire Creation process enlarges and engulfs the Father and Holy Spirit in the flash of an instant (1Cor. 15:27), to then be subjected back to God Almighty (1Cor. 15:28). This explains why Christ Himself (the Son) is “God’s Mystery.” Col. 2:2. God Almighty is “IN” Christ reconciling all things to Himself (2Cor. 5:19) AND standing outside this realm seeing everything happen in the flash of a single instant.

God Almighty has solved the riddle of placing an infinite quantity (Himself) into a finite container (Christ Jesus as the Heavenly Man / Tabernacle), i.e., the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being “three into the One” (1John 5:8). Therefore, the ‘justification’ is derived from God Almighty Himself who initiated the series of mystery processes by calling all things into being through His Word. The heavens (spirit), earth (water) and heaven (blood) simply exist according to the same image established by the begetting of His Son, before anything existed. Adam was begotten in the same fashion in the image of Almighty God (3 into the 1) standing beyond the veil. This is why woman (water) and seed (blood) could be taken from his side in Genesis 2 as the type of Christ’s side being opened by the spear so that blood and water could spill onto the earth (John 19:34). We should anticipate that Christ came in water AND in blood (1John 5:6), because the first sphere / orb is reserved for the Father who is represented by John the Baptist / Elijah who MUST come first (Matt. 17:10+11). Elijah (who is to come; Matt. 11:14) is the antitype of Adam and the first man having the spirit / water / blood under a single tabernacle. John said “No,” that he was not Elijah (John 1:21), because he is ‘more than a prophet.’ Matt. 11:9. All things were redeemed (purchased back) to God through Christ, but shall be ‘restored’ through the coming of Elijah (Matt. 17:10+11). (snip nonsense)
Faramir >> You are so big about saying "Just quote me" and when I do, you run and hide.
I write the same number of posts, but very little on this board. These Mods are going to give me one more warning over nothing, and you will not hear from me again. They move all of my work into this ‘Eschatology’ Room, as if the ‘Gospel’ (1Cor. 15:1-4) and our ‘One Baptism’ (Eph. 4:5, 1Cor. 12:13) are end-time topics. Then they delete threads over the embarrassing questions asked against their Preterism, saying, “You can only ask one or two questions in an OP.” Then, Sheepdog runs diversion trolling for anyone holding the futurist view of Revelation. There are hundreds if not thousands of Bible Discussion Boards on the internet with better people running them than this one. This place will eventually be three Preterists agreeing to their own nonsense, if you continue using the same tactics.
Faramir >> I quoted you here. 1) Regarding your "10 Questions that you said would drive preterist away" Well, I'm still here. But I also quoted you where you were caught being less than honest. My guess is that is why you are avoiding me in that thread.
I have no clue of what you are talking about. In my mind a Preterist ranks right up there with the people believing the world is flat. Your ‘Mount of Olives = Peoples’ interpretation of Zechariah 14:3+4 was the straw that broke the back of the whole herd of camels. Xavier’s bad mouth coupled with your obsessive fixation upon my person was enough to send me elsewhere. The structure is defined by the substance and composition of its pillars . . .

This place is a propaganda machine for Preterists and those blinded by their man-made theology. You are being left to your own devices . . .

In Christ,

Terral Please don't take issue with moderators in the post. Go vent in the locker room or PM the moderator. Future violations may result in points against you

[PaulT]

F,

I guess he decided to take his ball and go home.

[Terral]

Paul:
Paul to Faramir >> I guess he decided to take his ball and go home.
No sir. The ball is rolling elsewhere. I have presented my arguments for the teaching of “the Mystery” through a series of diagrams described in the OP. I purposely posted this work in a ‘non-debate’ section of this Board, but the powers that be moved it here without asking. As a non-Preterist, I should be honored that they did not delete the thing . . .

Mr. Faramir has asked questions relating to the source of where and how these things came to be. If you have the desire to leave the peanut gallery and join the debate, then I invite you to pick a side, quote somebody, and present your case using Scripture. Otherwise I would appreciate it very much if you kept your one sentence chat refuse to yourself . . .

That is why we have Private Messaging.

In Christ,

Terral

[PaulT]

T,

I was lead to believe you were moving on based on the below quote.


T: This place is a propaganda machine for Preterists and those blinded by their man-made theology. You are being left to your own devices . . .

Didn't mean to butt in, sorry.

In Christ,
Paul

[Lizard]

Faramir:

This question was answered for you in Post #28 of this thread. The Master Type for all the mystery processes in Scripture exists in the relationships between our Infinite God Almighty (John 1:1; spirit) and His Creation (John 1:3; water) through His Word / Son (John 1:2; blood). Draw two large overlapping circles on a blank sheet of paper to create three equal sections. In the left section write “God Almighty / Spirit (John 1:1)” and in the right semicircle section write “Creation / Water (John 1:3)”. Note that the central section is ‘begotten’ in the process of drawing your two circles. Inside that section write “Word / Son / Blood (John 1:2)”.

Drew the diagram, but I still do not see where you got all this (below) from the diagram:

This diagram demonstrates the way in which Christ Himself is “God’s Mystery.” (Col. 2:2),

The diagram demonstrates this? The passage you site tells us this, but why do we need the diagram to tell us what scripture clearly teaches?


as all things in the heavens (unseen) AND earth (seen) shall be summed up into (Eph. 1:9+10) AND subjected to (1Cor. 15:27) the Son. Only then can the Son Himself be subjected back to our Infinite Almighty God standing beyond the veil of time and space, so that He may be ‘all in all.’ 1Cor. 15:28.

OK. I followed that part (I think), but next is where you loose me:

The “Mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) is a microcosm of the greater “God’s Mystery” described above in that the two (heavens and earth) are being summed up ‘in’ Christ Jesus. This is demonstrated by the same diagram used above, but the heavens go into the ‘spirit’ sphere, while the earth goes into the ‘water’ sphere and all things are being summed up into the agency (Kingdom) of ‘heaven.’ Heaven is the begotten realm of Genesis 1:8, that was called into being when the heavens and earth (Gen. 1:1) were ripped apart (darkness upon face of the deep; Gen. 1:2) and then joined / married together again (waters above TO waters below). Heaven ‘became’ the ‘expanse in the MIDST (tavek #8432 = middle)’ of the waters’ (Gen. 1:6) in the same way that the Word / Son appears as the girdle between God Almighty and His Creation of your first diagram.

It appears to me (and I could be wrong, I am not sure I am following this at all) that you are making it sound like God the Son is somehow crated or somehow not a separate person until the time of creation. I don’t think you meant that, but that is what it looks to me like you are saying. Can you clarify this for me?

Also, what scripture do you use to support your claim that the Kingdom of Heaven is the “realm” described in Gen. 1:8?

We are to view the two original circles (spirit and water) as two large beach balls in either hand of God Almighty. He slowly brings the two together until they suddenly touch and begin to overlap.

But if the “overlap” contains God the Son, does that mean that He is not co-equal and co-eternal with God. This is pure heresy, and I don’t think (and hope you don’t) mean this. But I am having a very hard time reconciling your “image” with an orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

While the central (blood) section is ‘begotten’ in this process, it grows / enlarges to eventually engulf the original two realms completely and become One solid sphere that represents the sign of the ‘stone.’

These diagrams can reveal the processes through which the Son was ‘begotten,’ woman was taken from man, how heaven shall eventually sum up the heavens and the earth, the way Jew and Gentile are baptized into Christ and the ‘one body,’ etc.. The types even reveal that we shall be translated into an infinite existence where God Almighty is standing frozen and motionless right now as we speak.

God is standing frozen and motionless right now??? :bugeyes:


This has all kinds of problems with orthodox thinking. How can got (Who is Spirit) be frozen and motionless. How can God (Who transcends time) be (limited to) right now? [unless of course you are open view, which I do not think you are]

While we anticipate being translated into immortality (1Cor. 15:51-53) that process takes place within this temporal realm, or the “Water” sphere of the Master Type given above that contains ‘heavens / earth AND heaven.’ It is through that process that we become citizens of ‘heaven’ (Phil. 3:20). We are still part of the greater “God’s Mystery” process that shall see us translated from this temporal realm into His Infinite Realm at the end of the ages. Therefore, while the topics relating to Prophecy are indeed finite, the body of knowledge and wisdom relating to “God’s Hidden” Wisdom “in a Mystery” (1Cor. 2:7) is truly I.N.F.I.N.I.T.E. Whether you wish to explore any of the triune relationships between God, His Creation and His Son;


Once again this sounds very contrary to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

God the Son is God. If you are saying otherwise then this thread needs to go to unorthodox theology. If not, please clarify.



heavens, earth and heaven; the Holy of Holies, the Court and the Holy Place; male, female and their begotten seed; or even your own spirit, body and soul, the same two overlapping circle diagram represents the Master Blueprint to describe those ongoing summing up / subjection processes.


OK. I think I see where you are going with this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like this “master blueprint” is designed to show the dualistic nature of sprit and flesh/matter in various relationships.


Is that correct?

The Master Blueprint was discovered during years of prayer and study on this topic while writing letters of instruction to the body of Christ in the world today. The key came in the realization that a relationship existed between “the Mystery” (Eph. 3:1-3) described as a ‘summing up PROCESS’ in brief (Eph. 1:9+10) AND the three witnesses (spirit, water and blood) of 1John 5:8.


Once again, I followed part but got lost later. What is your basis for the division of scripture below:

It was about that time that the Spirit of God led me to realize that the Scriptures are also laid out in this triune spirit (OT), water (13 Kingdom NT Epistles) and blood (13 Grace Pauline Epistles) Master Blueprint format (Acts = Veil of the Tabernacle). While the Son is One with the Father (John 10:30; shares one complete orb), the Pauline Epistles also share a complete sphere with the spirit part (OT) and the water part (Kingdom NT) at the very same time. Therefore, certain components of ‘the Mystery’ are veiled within OT and Kingdom Epistles of our NT.

:shrug:?


You will never begin to solve the more difficult riddles relating to the Mystery, until you recognize Scripture itself as a map to hidden treasures. God Almighty Himself has placed a myriad of keys throughout the Text that unlock doors and turn on the lights to the passages and corridors within the massive structure that lead you into the even deeper things. Scripture itself represents a living ‘blueprint’ revealing the rooms and dwelling places of ‘the’ truth within His Living Word. Therefore, I am not sharing with you the things I have learned from men; but the things revealed from the Spirit of the Text, as He communes with the Holy Spirit “IN” me (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19). More than describing for you the things I have gathered from the commentary of men, I am revealing to you the things I see by the Spirit; which are also given in the Text.

And how is the information coming from you any superior to information coming from say, N.T. Write or R.C. Sproul or C.H. Spurgeon or any other man?

Except that these men do not claim some special divine revelation:


The things I see by the Spirit that are not described in the Holy Text I am NOT permitted to share with you.

Are you trying to tell me that you have some special, extra scriptural revelation from God? Once again, you seem to stretch the bounds of orthodoxy to a breaking point. :egad:

God Himself is the wise Master Builder to decide who shall and NEVER will see His Hidden Wisdom.

While I would love to take all the credit for developing this teaching tool for visualizing the many mystery processes from the Text, the Spirit of God Almighty Himself provided the cipher that unlocked the code so that all these things could be revealed. If you are asking whether I received any of these things from mortal men, then “No.” On the contrary, men who see not and hear not have done everything to place stumbling blocks in my way. The Spirit of the Text is Living and Active (my signature verse below; Heb. 4:12) but has no power to work inside the natural man. However, being the ‘water’ of His Word, He can overlap and intermingle with the Holy Spirit ‘in’ you. Note carefully that the same relationship exists between the Father (spirit), Holy Spirit (water) and the Son (blood). Christ is ‘in’ my soul (Col. 1:27) AND the ‘the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead’ (Rom. 8:11) also dwells in my spirit. This is what it truly means to be ‘spiritual,’ as in:
“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
No. Any similar series of drawings used to depict these things came originally from my hand. The doctrine of our triune Text is taught from precepts derived from working through the mystery diagrams depicting God / His Word / Creation at the very top and oil / broken seed / water (+fire = bread) at the very bottom. Some among you shall be witnesses of God ‘in’ me being glorified at the judgment (2Cor. 5:10) with gold and precious stones for bringing these things into the Light for the benefit of the maturing of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:11-13).

That is a good question that actually applies to the ‘topic’ without attacking so much my ‘person.’ God (John 1:1) called all things into being (John 1:3) through His Word (John 1:2). The end result is that all things (seen and unseen) shall eventually be subjected back to (1Cor. 15:27) AND summed up (Eph. 1:9+10) into the Son. Stand with me outside the boundaries of this creation (if you can) and visualize this process occurring in the flash of a single instant, while looking over the shoulder of our Infinite Almighty God.

OK so far, but then you lost me again here:

He is holding the Father (spirit) and Holy Spirit (water) in either hand in the same way that the Lord God fashioned Adam from the breath of life (spirit) AND the dust of the ground (water) so that he ‘became a living soul’ (blood). Gen. 2:7.

Once again you have “God” as different not only from the Son this time but from the Spirit as well. Is that really what you are trying to say? Orthodox trinitarianism has the Father, Son, and Spirit, ALL three being God.


The Father, Son and Holy Spirit represent the Heavenly Man / Tabernacle / Temple IN which the Spirit of Almighty God dwells (Col. 2:9). Christ is the ‘bread of life’ (John 6:48, 51), because the Father AND Holy Spirit dwell IN Him, which makes Him the spirit, water and blood (3 into the 1) ‘image of the invisible God’ (Col. 1:15). Therefore, the central (Son) section that is ‘begotten’ to begin the entire Creation process enlarges and engulfs the Father and Holy Spirit in the flash of an instant (1Cor. 15:27), to then be subjected back to God Almighty (1Cor. 15:28). This explains why Christ Himself (the Son) is “God’s Mystery.” Col. 2:2. God Almighty is “IN” Christ reconciling all things to Himself (2Cor. 5:19) AND standing outside this realm seeing everything happen in the flash of a single instant.

God Almighty has solved the riddle of placing an infinite quantity (Himself) into a finite container (Christ Jesus as the Heavenly Man / Tabernacle), i.e., the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being “three into the One” (1John 5:8). Therefore, the ‘justification’ is derived from God Almighty Himself who initiated the series of mystery processes by calling all things into being through His Word. The heavens (spirit), earth (water) and heaven (blood) simply exist according to the same image established by the begetting of His Son, before anything existed.

Once again it sounds like you are saying that God the Son is not co-eternal with God the Father (or God the Spirit).

Adam was begotten in the same fashion in the image of Almighty God (3 into the 1) standing beyond the veil. This is why woman (water) and seed (blood) could be taken from his side in Genesis 2 as the type of Christ’s side being opened by the spear so that blood and water could spill onto the earth (John 19:34). We should anticipate that Christ came in water AND in blood (1John 5:6), because the first sphere / orb is reserved for the Father who is represented by John the Baptist / Elijah who MUST come first (Matt. 17:10+11). Elijah (who is to come; Matt. 11:14) is the antitype of Adam and the first man having the spirit / water / blood under a single tabernacle. John said “No,” that he was not Elijah (John 1:21), because he is ‘more than a prophet.’ Matt. 11:9. All things were redeemed (purchased back) to God through Christ, but shall be ‘restored’ through the coming of Elijah (Matt. 17:10+11). (snip nonsense)

:hehe: If I sniped all of Terral's nonsense I wouldn't have any thing to respond to.

Ironic that Mr. "You only quoted part of post, not the whole thing" is so eager to snip other's words.


I write the same number of posts, but very little on this board. These Mods are going to give me one more warning over nothing, and you will not hear from me again.

Well unless you declare that I am mistaken in my understanding of your post (which is quite possible), and declare that you do hold to an orthodox view of the Trinity, then my guess is that the mods will move this thread to Unorthodox theology.

Again, I hope I am wrong. Though we disagree on eschatology, that is a non-salvation issue. If you are arguing for a non-Triune God, that is, at the very least, a potentially heretical position.


Then they delete threads over the embarrassing questions asked against their Preterism, saying, “You can only ask one or two questions in an OP.”

Same tired old song. If these questions are so embarrassing, then why have I opened up two threads to address two of these questions here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48368

and here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53339 ?


And if this is such a slam dunk case, why have you avoided these threads like a plague?

I intend to open threads with all 10 questions.


The following portion of Terral’s post is a rant against moderation which is not allowed out side of the Locker Room. I will address this rant in this thread, in the Locker Room where it belongs:


http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47340 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47340)


(Now back to our regularly scheduled eschatology thread)

They move all of my work into this ‘Eschatology’ Room, as if the ‘Gospel’ (1Cor. 15:1-4) and our ‘One Baptism’ (Eph. 4:5, 1Cor. 12:13) are end-time topics.


Eschatology is about more than end-time events.


Then, Sheepdog runs diversion trolling for anyone holding the futurist view of Revelation. There are hundreds if not thousands of Bible Discussion Boards on the internet with better people running them than this one.

No one is making you stay here. But I see you keep coming back.


This place will eventually be three Preterists agreeing to their own nonsense, if you continue using the same tactics.


When are you going to hasten that day? What is keeping you here?


I have no clue of what you are talking about. In my mind a Preterist ranks right up there with the people believing the world is flat. Your ‘Mount of Olives = Peoples’ interpretation of Zechariah 14:3+4 was the straw that broke the back of the whole herd of camels.

You have no clue. Very well said. :hehe:

Xavier’s bad mouth coupled with your obsessive fixation upon my person was enough to send me elsewhere.

Yet you keep coming back. :bawl:


The structure is defined by the substance and composition of its pillars . . .

This place is a propaganda machine for Preterists and those blinded by their man-made theology. You are being left to your own devices . . .



Our pillars? You mean like the many futurist who make up the leadership team? The owners and admins that are futurist? The AA’s and mods who are futurist?


TWeb leadership is composed of a very diverse mixture of people. It is your paranoia and delusions of adequacy that keep you from seeing this clear truth.

[Sheepdog]

Terral, you are entitled to your opinions, but if you have a beef with specific moderater edits and notices, please take it up with the individual moderators involved or take it to the Locker Room. You are not entitled to discuss them in this forum.

[Terral]

Faramir:
Faramir >> The diagram demonstrates this? The passage you site tells us this, but why do we need the diagram to tell us what scripture clearly teaches?
Because the diagram reveals things about the relationship the Son / Word has with God Almighty AND Creation; sharing a complete sphere with both simultaneously. In the largest sense, God Almighty is the Spirit of Christ as the Soul and Creation as Their Body. The realm of Almighty God is like the ‘heavens’ with the realm of the Word / Son (Christ Jesus, i.e., Father / Son / Holy Spirit ) being like ‘heaven,’ and creation (heavens / heaven / earth ) being in the water position of the ‘body.’ This is the Mother of all the Mystery Types or the “Master Blueprint” that is the basis for every series of triune relationships in the Text. All of Creation is being summed up ‘in’ Christ . . . right? Eph. 1:9+10. The diagram reveals that the Spirit of God Almighty Himself is also being summed up IN Christ at the very same time. Therefore, the life force sustaining every molecule in this universe has an INFINITE source, even though the heavens, heaven and earth (water sphere) is finite. Next, when we place the ‘heavens / heaven / earth’ into the ‘spirit / blood / water’ diagram, we see that the heavens and earth are being summed up ‘in’ heaven. Each of these realms has a ‘throne’ with a ‘father’ seated as Lord of that particular realm. New Jerusalem exists within the ‘new heaven’ (blood section) realm between the new heavens and new earth.

Yes, Scripture clearly says that Christ is God’s Mystery TO ME and perhaps you, but the manuscripts vary on the wording of this key verse. It happens that the Critical Text is the manuscript that we both appear to agree is right in this case, where the Received Text adds the phrase “. . . full knowledge of the Mystery of God +both of the Father and+ of Christ . . . ” in Col. 2:2. Therefore, the diagram helped me to realize which of the manuscripts contained the error. Also, the most important lessons of the Mystery come from recognizing the key features that exist in the ‘relationships’ of the spirit, blood and water principals. For example: The ‘throne of David’ is upon this earth (water) in Jerusalem as the lesser of three thrones within this Creation. Christ shall occupy the throne of New Jerusalem with God Almighty upon His Throne in His Infinite Realm. However, the throne of David (center; blood) is also set up as part of a triune relationship between the prophet (spirit; going in and out) and the High Priest (water). The prophet is the messenger between David and the Lord God above, while the High Priest intercedes for the people. The High Priest has access to the Temple that is also laid out in this same triune manner to wash outside (court; water) in the Laver of Water, to enter the Holy Place (blood) and sprinkle the blood of the offering to enter the Holy of Holies (spirit). You see Christ as the Prophet in Matthew 24, and as High Priest entering the Holy Place of the Tabernacle above not made with human hands (Heb. 9:11). Today He is at the right hand of God interceding for us, but the future shall see Him in the center of His heavenly throne (Rev. 7:17) as King. Christ became incarnate as A MAN (spirit / soul / body) and is participating in every aspect of each Mystery process, until ultimately all things are ‘in’ Him, and He is subjected back to our Infinite God (1Cor. 15:28). There are many other reasons that explain ‘why’ the use of the diagrams is important. One is that the central ‘blood’ section is the seat of ‘consciousness and judgment’ as the ‘spirit’ section is the source of ‘life and will.’ Simply telling your student that, “Yes, Christ is God’s Mystery” does not mean nearly as much, as being able to show how these and related things are expressed in the diagrams. This is a great tool that works for me. If it does not work for you then do not use it.
Terral Original >> The “Mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) is a microcosm of the greater “God’s Mystery” described above in that the two (heavens and earth) are being summed up ‘in’ Christ Jesus. This is demonstrated by the same diagram used above, but the heavens go into the ‘spirit’ sphere, while the earth goes into the ‘water’ sphere and all things are being summed up into the agency (Kingdom) of ‘heaven.’ Heaven is the begotten realm of Genesis 1:8, that was called into being when the heavens and earth (Gen. 1:1) were ripped apart (darkness upon face of the deep; Gen. 1:2) and then joined / married together again (waters above TO waters below). Heaven ‘became’ the ‘expanse in the MIDST (tavek #8432 = middle)’ of the waters’ (Gen. 1:6) in the same way that the Word / Son appears as the girdle between God Almighty and His Creation of your first diagram.

Faramir >> It appears to me (and I could be wrong, I am not sure I am following this at all) that you are making it sound like God the Son is somehow crated* or somehow == not == a separate person until the time of creation. I don’t think you meant that, but that is what it looks to me like you are saying. Can you clarify this for me?
There is no such thing as “God the Son.” Where did you get such a phrase? Because it does not exist in Scripture. Jesus Christ is the “Son of God.” John 1:34. Secondly, I believe you meant to say “created*” here. I highlighted the term “not” in your statement, because “not a separate person” can mean just about anything. Try describing your ideas using positive terms. No, the Son of God was not ‘created,’ but was ‘begotten’ through the process I described above. God Almighty and His Word were ONE in John 1:1 in His Infinite Realm, and therefore His Word / Son is NEVER understood to be ‘created.’ The Word was spoken into existence and exteriorized to create the intercessory realm of John 1:2, which exists between God’s Infinite Realm and Creation of John 1:3. Time and space exist in the water realm of John 1:3 (Creation) where the Word shares the right side sphere and is ONE with Creation. Note that spirit sphere of God Almighty does not touch the water sphere at all, but He also shares one complete sphere with His Word. When you turn that diagram 90 degrees with God on top, then you can visualize a Heavenly “Man” of spirit, soul and body. Where are the agencies of ‘consciousness and judgment’ in this diagram? Answer: In His Word / Son, i.e., Christ Jesus. Christ, then, is the Mystery (Man) of God. However, Christ Jesus is the Living Heavenly Triune Man Tabernacle of spirit (Father) water (Holy Spirit) and blood (Son). Then, Christ became incarnate on the earth (water) with the Father (spirit) ‘in’ Him (John 14:11) while filled with the Holy Spirit (water) (Luke 4:1). Therefore, Christ incarnate on the earth is the mirror image of the Heavenly “Christ Jesus” (Father / Son / Holy Spirit) above AND the mirror image of God Almighty / the Word / Creation in the larger sense AND the image of the Invisible God (Col. 1:15) standing beyond the veil of time and space (spirit / body / soul, 3 into the 1). When the deeper things of the Mystery begin to become known within your being, then the realization will begin to dawn on you that every fiber of existence (seen and unseen) of this Creation walked with Christ (IN Him) during His life on this earth. He descended to become the image of mortal man, and is now ascending with the hope of glory assured for all those who believe.
Faramir >> Also, what scripture do you use to support your claim that the Kingdom of Heaven is the “realm” described in Gen. 1:8?
This is where the ‘relationships’ of the principals becomes your teacher by comparing the mystery processes on the various levels. The ‘heavens’ are in the spirit position of God Almighty with the earth in the water position of creation. Heaven occupies the central ‘begotten’ position of the Word / Son that came into being as the third witness (blood) by the overlapping of the original two. Heaven, then, is the Mystery of the Heavens in the same way that Christ is the God’s Mystery. New Jerusalem is the administration hub of the new ‘heaven’ of Rev. 21:1+, and Christ shall sit on His throne within that administration, as all things are summed up “IN” Christ Jesus. The two realms of heavens (spirit) and earth (water) had just touched in Gen. 1:8, so that the realm came into existence. There was no Kingdom of heaven there at that time. However, the summing up mystery ‘process’ includes the fact that the central (blood) section enlarges to engulf the first two parts. Satan and his evil rulers of this darkness (Eph. 6:12) have been seated there since the time of Genesis 1:2, until the Lord chains him at our rapture (1Thes. 4:16+17, Rev. 1:10, 20:2), when the ‘day of the Lord’ (1Thes. 5:1+2) is ‘at hand’ (2Thes. 2:2). That marks the moment that the heavenly seats are vacated, and the members of the body of Christ are Judged (2Cor. 5:10) and are given those seats in the heavenly. It is from there that the church judges the world (water / earth) and the angels (spirit / heavens) (1Cor. 6:2+3).
Terral Original >> We are to view the two original circles (spirit and water) as two large beach balls in either hand of God Almighty. He slowly brings the two together until they suddenly touch and begin to overlap.

Faramir >> But if the “overlap” contains God the Son, does that mean that He is not co-equal and co-eternal with God. This is pure heresy, and I don’t think (and hope you don’t) mean this. But I am having a very hard time reconciling your “image” with an orthodox understanding of the Trinity.
Again, there is no such thing as “God the Son” in Scripture. I never try to reconcile Scripture with the doctrines of mere men. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit represent the Three into the One (1John 5:8) Living Tabernacle Heavenly Man in which the Spirit of Almighty God dwells. The tip of God’s little finger cannot fit inside this creation (1Kings 8:27), because HE IS . . . . . I.N.F.I.N.I.T.E. Christ Jesus = the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which this creation ‘CAN’ contain. Where the three overlap into the One (the Son) there the Spirit of Almighty God is also. That is what it means when Scripture says that “God was in Christ” reconciling us to Himself. 2Cor. 5:19. Or, that the fullness of Deity dwells ‘IN’ Him in bodily form. Col. 2:9. Christ Jesus is the “IMAGE’ of the INVISIBLE GOD (Col. 1:15) standing beyond the veil of time and space. We worship Almighty God THROUGH His Only Begotten Son. Christ is our INTERCESSOR (Rom. 8:34) and MEDIATOR between GOD and man. 1Tim. 2:5. Folks who worship “God the Son” are not likely candidates to see ‘the Mystery.’
Faramir >> God is standing frozen and motionless right now???
Absolutely. You missed the part about “His frozen stare” from the Mystery post. Perhaps I explain it better here: http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=008509 (http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=008509) (not an advertisement). Debating with Jews can be more frustrating that with Preterists. : 0 ).

Every event to take place inside this creation in all the past ages to the very last thing to occur (1Cor. 15:28) happens within the flash of a single instant before our Infinite God. He literally sees the beginning and the end as a single event. Time and space as we know it does not exist in His Infinite Realm. Those things are part of the creation of John 1:3 described above. From the position of Almighty God, this creation expanded then contracted into Christ and was subjected back to Him in the twinkling of His eye; as if the flash of Creation itself took His picture. However, inside this creation the sphere and orbs are turning very slowly within the envelope of time and space. Therefore, if you could look beyond the veil of time itself to look upon His face, at any time from the very beginning to the very end, then you would see His same frozen stare as if His picture were taken in a snapshot. It is through His infinite wisdom, power and Divine nature that He is able to exist within this realm inside the Heavenly Man Paul describes as “Christ Jesus.” God Almighty is working with us inside this temporal fishbowl to prepare us for a grand entrance into His Infinite Realm THROUGH Christ, as His Only Begotten Son.
Faramir >. This has all kinds of problems with orthodox thinking. How can got (Who is Spirit) be frozen and motionless. How can God (Who transcends time) be (limited to) right now? [unless of course you are open view, which I do not think you are]
I do not know what ‘open view’ means. You are confusing our Infinite God outside this tiny realm with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (His Living Tabernacle) within creation. Try to imagine what it is like for your entire life to flash before your eyes in the flash of a single instant. You see yourself as a little baby, then a boy, young man, married with kids, a grandfather, great grandfather, then the end. Were you limited in any way during the flash of that single instant? No. All of these events within this fishbowl are happening before Him in the flash of that moment, because of His Infinite Power. The illusion that He is staring into this tiny creation is visible only from our mortal perspective. (snip repetitions)
Faramir >> OK. I think I see where you are going with this. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like this “master blueprint” is designed to show the dualistic nature of sprit and flesh/matter in various relationships. Is that correct?
On the most simplistic level, yes. The duality realms of spirit and earth came into existence as the result of the Satanic Rebellion, which caused the destruction of Gen. 1:2. The ages of Gen. 1:1 saw no such thing as angels or men, but all beings were created perfect where spirit / body / soul were ONE. We are being translated back into that immortal body in 1Cor. 15:51-53. That is where the kingdom of heaven, summing up ‘in’ Christ, central (blood) section, etc. all comes into play. Immortality is for those who are ‘in’ Christ where the three realms (heavens / heaven / earth) all overlap. We are being translated from the water realm into the central (blood) begotten and by then ‘enlarging’ heavenly realm. Our judging of the world and the angels is so that they can also join us from the spirit (angels) and water (world / earth) semicircles of your diagrams. That what Christ, Heaven, New Jerusalem, the Body of Christ, the Throne of God/Christ together as the Living Soul of the Universe is all about; until we all are ‘in’ Christ and the enlarging central blood section. When all things are inside that blood section, then the spirit and water shrinking semicircles will become non-existent with all rule and authority over them. The more you work with the diagrams, the more you will become convinced (like me) that Scripture was written with images of these (spirit / water / blood) types in full view. And, the day will come when those among you will show the old man things he has yet to see. (snip, too vague for me to guess)
Faramir >> Once again you have “God” as different not only from the Son this time but from the Spirit as well. Is that really what you are trying to say? Orthodox trinitarianism has the Father, Son, and Spirit, ALL three being God.
Orthodox Trinitarians are DEAD WRONG. They confuse the Living Father / Son / Holy Spirit Tabernacle / Temple with God Almighty Himself. (snip more God the Son lingo)
Faramir >> If I sniped all of Terral's nonsense I wouldn't have any thing to respond to.

(Snip, had enough . . .)

Thank you very much for the opportunity to say a little more on this topic.

In Christ,

Terral

[Amazing Rando]

[size=3]
Orthodox Trinitarians are DEAD WRONG. They confuse the Living Father / Son / Holy Spirit Tabernacle / Temple with God Almighty Himself.



Suddenly the picture has become much clearer...

[Xavier]

Suddenly the picture has become much clearer...
Did you think we were kidding when we called him a heretic?

[Lizard]

Did you think we were kidding when we called him a heretic?

I for one thought you were exagerating. But it looks like we have a genuine hairy tick here.

[Dave G]

Man, I hate when people draw diagrams to represent abstractions.

[Lizard]

Faramir:

Because the diagram reveals things


OK. I see now. What we have here is a circular argument. The diagram is based on your interpretation, therefore it reveals your interpretation.

And that is exactly what it does, it reveals the interpretation that it was designed to reveal. Nothing magic about that.

I now think I know enough about this to no longer be interested.

1. It leads to heretical conclusions.
2. It is base, at least in part, on a Gap theory of Gen. 1:1-2. A theory I am very familiar with, and consider to be some of the worst eisegesis known to Christendom. Even when I was a dispensational, I thought that this particular doctrine was absurd.
3. It leads to heretical conclusions.
4. I would much rather discuss direct scritptural arguments than to be side tracked by a diagram.
5. It leads to heretical conclusions.
6. The diagram only explaines what your position is, I want to see the biblical support for this position.
7. It leads to heretical conclusions.


Did I mention that your opinion on the Trinity is heretical?

Orthodox Trinitarians are DEAD WRONG. They confuse the Living Father / Son / Holy Spirit Tabernacle / Temple with God Almighty Himself.

I can see why you sniped the "God the Son" reference. From your heretical point of view "God the Son" would be heresy to you. So please understand that I consider your view to be not only nonsense, but dangerous nonsense.

On a side note. While I strongly disagree with your eschatology, I do not consider it to be the grave error of your unorthodox understanding of the Trinity. Your eschatology is merely error, your trintarian position is potentially damnable error. And though our relationship has been mostly advisarial, this still saddens me greatly.

:sig:

[Amazing Rando]

Did you think we were kidding when we called him a heretic?

Heck, I just thought he was another off-the-wall dispy! :ahem:

[themuzicman]

This thread is outside of orthodoxy, and has been moved.

[Amazing Rando]

It's about darn time! :yes: