Aisha and Islam

[Krusader]

Aisha was Mohammed's child bride. He was about 53 years of age when he consummated the marriage with Aisha, age 9:

"So, Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad, and 3 years later, i.e., when Aisha was 9, the marriage was consummated. And Muhammed was then 53 (Sahih Bukhari 5:236, 7:64, 7:65, 7:88."

Now, there may have been betrothals of young children in Mohammed's time, but generally the marriage was not consummated until puberty.

Which brings me to this:

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fouth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a boaby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the chiild is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister...."

So, Mohammed set the pattern for this illicit behavior....but I suppose there are many here that will defend him, nevertheless.

[kiwimac]

So once again you are dealing with the world of 1500 years ago from a modern POV. It does not and indeed cannot work. Are you going to judge Abraham by todays standards? Lot? Noah? Samson? Joshua?

If not then why would you judge Muhammad that way?

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

So once again you are dealing with the world of 1500 years ago from a modern POV. It does not and indeed cannot work. Are you going to judge Abraham by todays standards? Lot? Noah? Samson? Joshua?

If not then why would you judge Muhammad that way?

Kiwimac
Excuse me, kiwi, but didn't you note the quotation from a contemporary book by a Muslim ayatollah?

Kiwi, don't you understand that the minds of many Muslims are stuck back in the 16th century? Why do you thing that Bin Ladin and his cronies are able to arouse such fanaticism?

Instead of commenting on the disgusting statement by Koumeni, what do you do? Perhaps child abuse, especially of young females, is of no concern to you, but as a social worker who has seen more than her share of abuse cases, it is a very big deal to me.

Can't you even comment on such abuse? Have you been so blinded by the politically correct gospel of diversity that nothing is wrong except to speak out against it?

[revivalfire]

So the prophet couldn't even keep the law he was telling his followers to obey? Is that basically it? Kinda makes his legitimacy as someone sent from Allah kinda..well.....tarnished..

[revivalfire]

So once again you are dealing with the world of 1500 years ago from a modern POV. It does not and indeed cannot work. Are you going to judge Abraham by todays standards? Lot? Noah? Samson? Joshua?

If not then why would you judge Muhammad that way?

Kiwimac
Abraham married his half-sister...acceptable during that day....Lot was poisoned...for lack of a better definition..he got drunk...Noah....was drunk also but also didn't try to instigate anything(not to mention that verse is unclear about what happened)....Samson....repented......Joshua....now I'm totally lost...what did he do?

[Krusader]

So the prophet couldn't even keep the law he was telling his followers to obey? Is that basically it? Kinda makes his legitimacy as someone sent from Allah kinda..well.....tarnished..
Mohammed (Oh, excuse me, Allah said) that Muslims could have four wives, but Mohammed was specifically given permission for more. Apparently, 9 year old Aisha was not spared Mohammed's lust. There is a good site, Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation, (she's a Muslim) which gets into the abuse of females in Islam.

Joseph Smith, like Mohammed, seemed obsessed by lust, and even his god even threatened his wife, Emma, with eternal damnation were she to reject Joseph's additional wives.

Ha, Ha, Emma denied his polygamy, even on her death bed. Thus, the Reorganites were spawned!

[Cynic Sage]

Abraham married his half-sister...acceptable during that day....Lot was poisoned...for lack of a better definition..he got drunk...Noah....was drunk also but also didn't try to instigate anything(not to mention that verse is unclear about what happened)....Samson....repented......Joshua....now I'm totally lost...what did he do?Joshua was a general, which according to us "enlightened" folk, makes him EEEEEVULLLL for trying to ensure the security of his people.

Muslims view the prophets as sinless, I only agree that one of those prophets was sinless (that person being Isa).:wink:

What does the Koran teach on the whole marriage/age/consummating thing? Judging Islam on what an allyatollah says is like judging Christianity (look, no "X". Happy now, Crusader?) on something nasty a Pope said, or perhaps the anti-semitic remarks of Martin Luther.

[Krusader]

Joshua was a general, which according to us "enlightened" folk, makes him EEEEEVULLLL for trying to ensure the security of his people.

Muslims view the prophets as sinless, I only agree that one of those prophets was sinless (that person being Isa).:wink:

What does the Koran teach on the whole marriage/age/consummating thing? Judging Islam on what an allyatollah says is like judging Christianity (look, no "X". Happy now, Crusader?) on something nasty a Pope said, or perhaps the anti-semitic remarks of Martin Luther.
I would agree. However, it was the lifestyle of Mohammed that enabled Koumeni to write such a disgusting thing. The lifestyle of Jesus, on the other hand, was sinless - and as for Luther, he did say very anti-semitic things, things which we, as Christians, must condemn.

[Cynic Sage]

The lifestyle of Jesus, on the other hand, was sinless - and as for Luther, he did say very anti-semitic things, things which we, as Christians, must condemn.
I'm kinda surprised we agree on something. I'm expecting the universe to collapse on itself anytime now.:lol:

[Krusader]

I'm kinda surprised we agree on something. I'm expecting the universe to collapse on itself anytime now.:lol:
You might call me a Zionist/Christian I suppose. The Jewish people were chosen by God to bring forth Messiah....and have been persecuted these many years. However, they remain in God's eschatological plan, and we Christians should always remember that.

[revivalfire]

That's why I believe America has done so well...we have helped protect the Jews.....why do you think Europe and the Arabs hate us?

[kiwimac]

Now, this is just me, but I would have said it was for your overweening arrogance.

Kiwimac

[BlackOpal12]

To correct an untruth -

Muhammad, even with the aforementioned pederastic behavior, did not "set the standard." The standard had been set by his culture long beforehand, and by the resident cultures of the areas into which Islam was enculturated. Please attempt historical acuity with your generalizations.

[Krusader]

To correct an untruth -

Muhammad, even with the aforementioned pederastic behavior, did not "set the standard." The standard had been set by his culture long beforehand, and by the resident cultures of the areas into which Islam was enculturated. Please attempt historical acuity with your generalizations.

Excuse me, wasn't he supposed to be a "prophet" and a role model for his people? So what if they had been acculturated into paedophilia - he was supposed to be taking his orders and getting his guidance from his god - one must wonder where the inspiration was. Jesus lived about 500 years prior to Mohammed, and He never let the culture control his teaching or actions. I personally find you defense of Mohammed's lifestyle at odds with basic morality. After all, Cannanites were throwing babies in Molech's fires - but YHWH stopped that, did He not?

Remind me never to hire you in this office.

[flipper]

Crusader:

What age do you think it was that Jewish women could get betrothed? And at what age could they be wed?

When you find the answer, please go ahead and post it here.


Flipper, this area is for theists only. Thanks.

[Krusader]

Now, this is just me, but I would have said it was for your overweening arrogance.

Kiwimac
I would reply with a nasty remark, but since it's almost Christmas, I won't. My father fought along side the Aussies in World War 2, and said they were great soldiers - he also visited Austrailia and found it a charming place.

Have you ever visited the States? I don't think we're arrogant at all - in fact, you'll find us rather charming. America takes a lot of bad hits, especially from Europeans; but, of course, they should be thankful to us that they're not all speaking German now.

[Krusader]

Crusader:

What age do you think it was that Jewish women could get betrothed? And at what age could they be wed?

When you find the answer, please go ahead and post it here.
Going by the New Testament, I'd say young girls were probably betrothed prior to puberty, but were married at puberty. We have the relationship between St. Joseph and the Blessed Mother as our example. She had "known" no man piror to the angelic visitation.

[Durthorin]

A thought to keep in mind is that when the average lifespan is in the mid-30s and infant mortality is better than 50% most cultures seemed to develop both early marriage and forms of pologamy.. it was simply a survival mechanism.

[Krusader]

A thought to keep in mind is that when the average lifespan is in the mid-30s and infant mortality is better than 50% most cultures seemed to develop both early marriage and forms of pologamy.. it was simply a survival mechanism.
Another thing to keep in mind is that in Islam, sexual intercourse is for procreation. Do you think a nine year old girl should be having babies?

[wolf]

Again allow me to present a more balanced view by offering the other side of the argument.

From

www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/ayesha.htm (http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/ayesha.htm)

Some people believe that Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (peace be upon him) was consummated.

The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective standpoint. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:


Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

I hope that helps

Wasalam

Wolf

[Krusader]

Again allow me to present a more balanced view by offering the other side of the argument.

From

www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/ayesha.htm (http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.com/ayesha.htm)

Some people believe that Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (peace be upon him) was consummated.

The age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective standpoint. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

I hope that helps

Wasalam

Wolf
Thanks for that input; however, the information that Aisha was 9 years old comes directly from Islamic websites (not Christian). Some say 6.

[wolf]

I am not suggesting you didn't get that information from Islamic websites, infact the ultimate source is from The Hadith of Bukhari. This is a collection of sayings that was collected some 200 years after the time of Prophet muhammad PBUH. They are open to a lot of scrutiny as I have shown and their accuracy is not always reliable which is agin what I have atempted to show. Just because info comes from an Islamic website does not make it accurate, and just because there is a Hadith saying so and so does not make it accurate eithrt and I have cast enough suspicion to raise the possibilty that ayesha was a lot older when the marriage was consumated. Is their anything specific against the evidence I have presented??

Thanks

Wasalam


Wolf

[Krusader]

I am not suggesting you didn't get that information from Islamic websites, infact the ultimate source is from The Hadith of Bukhari. This is a collection of sayings that was collected some 200 years after the time of Prophet muhammad PBUH. They are open to a lot of scrutiny as I have shown and their accuracy is not always reliable which is agin what I have atempted to show. Just because info comes from an Islamic website does not make it accurate, and just because there is a Hadith saying so and so does not make it accurate eithrt and I have cast enough suspicion to raise the possibilty that ayesha was a lot older when the marriage was consumated. Is their anything specific against the evidence I have presented??

Thanks

Wasalam


Wolf
I would say that the narration by Aisha herself, as found on many sites, would be the greatest proof of her tender age.

Having worked on abuse cases many years, I have to tell you this is a very sensitive area for me. Some children have been abused at only a few months of age.

What do you think of the quote from Koumeni's book allowing the use of children and mere babes for sexual gratification?

[Timothy Leary]

Wolf,

I appreciate the posts you have been making, but would it be possible to summarize some of the information instead of the longer posts?

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

I'm a New Zealander not an Aussie. My father was an RSM (Warrant Officer 1st Class) during ww2 & HIS comments about the Americans were not .... good.

Yes, I have been to the US, individually, you yanks are fine, as a nation you seem to be little short of arrogant.

Kiwimac

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

The statements from Ayesha are being quoted from Bukhari. Wolf has already said Bukhari's Hadith are sometimes not accurate and has quoted from sources which support his contention.

Perhaps you should rethink?

Kiwimac

[revivalfire]

Now, this is just me, but I would have said it was for your overweening arrogance.

Kiwimac
Where did that come from? Yes, some fools in American politics and especially in our entertainment section are arrogant...but why did you lump us in with them? Don't judge us..please....I'm proud to be an American...and if you'll take a minute to look back into the history books...we have defended Israel more times then not.....I believe that is why we were created as a nation and that is why we will continue until the 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled....

[revivalfire]

Do you think a soldier is a good judge of a nation? I do....but then again you have mixed reports of American soldiers..you don't want us to defend you people...fine..... But please don't think us arrogant...although we are sheltered somewhat

[Timothy Leary]

Crusader,

I'm a New Zealander not an Aussie. My father was an RSM (Warrant Officer 1st Class) during ww2 & HIS comments about the Americans were not .... good.

Yes, I have been to the US, individually, you yanks are fine, as a nation you seem to be little short of arrogant.

Kiwimac

Kiwi, I didn't think your church existed outside of America. When did it become international?

[kiwimac]

Yoshiyah,

Actually in about the 1870s. We are small but well-spread! (and beautifully shaped too) :D

Kiwimac

[wolf]

I would say that the narration by Aisha herself, as found on many sites, would be the greatest proof of her tender age.

Having worked on abuse cases many years, I have to tell you this is a very sensitive area for me. Some children have been abused at only a few months of age.

What do you think of the quote from Koumeni's book allowing the use of children and mere babes for sexual gratification?


From what I have read the Four hadith in Bukhari two are related (as their first narrator) by Aisha (RA) and Two by Urwa or his Father but if you actually looks at the ISNAD or the chain of narration even the ones narrated by Aisha(RA) have Urwa or his father in the chain hence the questionable reliability.

I totally agree with you on Child abuse and I understand your feelings as you have probably heard and seen some horriffic cases. I am just pointing out that the evidence for this accusation is a lot shakier than initially suggested.

On your quote from the Khomeini, I think he is an absolute disgrace and in no way reflects the Islam I have been taught, whatever meagre justification he claims to have for his school of thought I cannot trace back to authentic primary Islamic sources(ie the quran). You have to understand that in Islam (like any other religion) there are a lot of fringe elements with extreme idealogies and complex justifications for their myriad of innovations into the faith, but they have to be viewed with suspicion and the evidence for them carefully scrutinised rather then taken at face value.

I will reply to your other post later in the day if I can. Thanks


Wasalam


Wolf

[Krusader]

[QUOTE=wolf]From what I have read the Four hadith in Bukhari two are related (as their first narrator) by Aisha (RA) and Two by Urwa or his Father but if you actually looks at the ISNAD or the chain of narration even the ones narrated by Aisha(RA) have Urwa or his father in the chain hence the questionable reliability.

I totally agree with you on Child abuse and I understand your feelings as you have probably heard and seen some horriffic cases. I am just pointing out that the evidence for this accusation is a lot shakier than initially suggested.

On your quote from the Khomeini, I think he is an absolute disgrace and in no way reflects the Islam I have been taught, whatever meagre justification he claims to have for his school of thought I cannot trace back to authentic primary Islamic sources(ie the quran). You have to understand that in Islam (like any other religion) there are a lot of fringe elements with extreme idealogies and complex justifications for their myriad of innovations into the faith, but they have to be viewed with suspicion and the evidence for them carefully scrutinised rather then taken at face value.

I will reply to your other post later in the day if I can. Thanks


Wasalam




You're right, Wolf, it's the "fringe" element in Islam that we are dealing with at every turn. Are you a Sunni Muslim?

[Krusader]

Crusader,

I'm a New Zealander not an Aussie. My father was an RSM (Warrant Officer 1st Class) during ww2 & HIS comments about the Americans were not .... good.

Yes, I have been to the US, individually, you yanks are fine, as a nation you seem to be little short of arrogant.

Kiwimac
Oh, so sorry, didn't realize you were a New Zealander. Well, as for us being a little arrogant, I guess that's true of some, not of all. If you lived here, you'd see that there's a big "hate everything American" movement, and that the revisionist history taught in our schools seems to support that attitude.

[Timothy Leary]

Oh, so sorry, didn't realize you were a New Zealander. Well, as for us being a little arrogant, I guess that's true of some, not of all. If you lived here, you'd see that there's a big "hate everything American" movement, and that the revisionist history taught in our schools seems to support that attitude.

Crusader, I'd be interested in what you think is revionist, as I am literally just about to register for my first History class in college via the net. (and I plan on skipping the simple history classes)

[Krusader]

Crusader, I'd be interested in what you think is revionist, as I am literally just about to register for my first History class in college via the net. (and I plan on skipping the simple history classes)
I think you've already taken that class - public school grad, right?

[Timothy Leary]

I think you've already taken that class - public school grad, right?

Yeah, but they don't require anything other than a simple history class to get my associates. I'm probably going to jump into the Civil War class, but I'm not sure yet. I still have 2 weeks to decide.

So what parts do you consider revisionist? (I also consider some parts to be white-watered at least partly, though I don't know about revisionist...)

[Krusader]

Yeah, but they don't require anything other than a simple history class to get my associates. I'm probably going to jump into the Civil War class, but I'm not sure yet. I still have 2 weeks to decide.

So what parts do you consider revisionist? (I also consider some parts to be white-watered at least partly, though I don't know about revisionist...)Many Christians home-school there children due to the secularization of the public schools -= to the point where birth control devices are passed out to students (minus parental consent), sex education classes teach technique, social studies classes teach about American imperialism, with little devoted to studying the writings of our founding fathers and the majority of time spent on pointing out everything "evil" about this country with a socialist world view. For instance, how much time in High School did you spend on study of the Constitution, the Puritan settlement of America, the Bill of Rights, etc., compared to the evils of slavery and capitalist greed and American expansionism? Phonics was a dead deal for a while, only recently reinvented after it was discovered that so many young people could barely read or write.

As part of my job, I've had many young people, even those in college, tested and found that they generally score at 6.0 - 7.0 or less in reading and math skills. I had one college grad test out at 3.0 for reading. If the amount of time the public schools spend on "values education" was redirected toward basic skills, I think we'd see an increase in those test scores. However, the public schools are now tools for social "readjustment," and with Dobson, I believe they are not a place where Christians should send their chldren.

Well, you'll probably just disagree with me - and that's fine, too. As for me, if I had it to do over again I'd home school my children.

[revivalfire]

No offense but I don't think Paces in homeschooling are a whole lot better then Public Schools... They are vague and move on without even allowing the student to fully grasp the concept.... Private Christian Schools..(if you can find a decent one)..are probably the best way to go..although those are fading fast... We really are a stupid people....literally....we don't know a thing compared....oh well.... "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly..."

[Krusader]

No offense but I don't think Paces in homeschooling are a whole lot better then Public Schools... They are vague and move on without even allowing the student to fully grasp the concept.... Private Christian Schools..(if you can find a decent one)..are probably the best way to go..although those are fading fast... We really are a stupid people....literally....we don't know a thing compared....oh well.... "Come Lord Jesus, come quickly..."
Interestingly, Revivalfire, home-schooled Christian students consistently score higher on tests of reading, math, science, etc., than do students in public or private schools.

Of course, if you have a good Christian school available, that is within your monetary means, that is also a valid choice.

Our pastors are missionaries, and of necessity, home school their four children. Some in the area have been so impressed with the outcome that they have asked our pastors to also school their children.

Also, this is a matter between a Christian and the Lord, of course, and I do not speak for all Christians.

[revivalfire]

Too true...I did assume that all Paces were the same.....My apologies.... Yes I must agree that home-schooled children score higher...if they get the correct program... The one I have encountered is no better then public school....but I assume that there are High-quality ones as well....

[Krusader]

Too true...I did assume that all Paces were the same.....My apologies.... Yes I must agree that home-schooled children score higher...if they get the correct program... The one I have encountered is no better then public school....but I assume that there are High-quality ones as well....
The one used by our pastors is specifically designed for the children of missionaries (who often must be out of the country). Although, they used to use on designed by an Independent Baptist church in Georgia. Both have high standards.

[revivalfire]

The one used by our pastors is specifically designed for the children of missionaries (who often must be out of the country). Although, they used to use on designed by an Independent Baptist church in Georgia. Both have high standards.
Really? That is good to know that not all supposed Christian education is down the tubes....that is an encouragment like you wouldn't believe, seriously..I've seen some pretty shoddy stuff..

[Timothy Leary]

Why don't we start another thread, in a more appropriate section, for this topic?

[Bill the Cat]

:offtopic: My sentiments exactly. If you would like, I'll split the thread

[Timothy Leary]

That would be preferable, Bill.

[moonlight3]

Excuse me, kiwi, but didn't you note the quotation from a contemporary book by a Muslim ayatollah?

Kiwi, don't you understand that the minds of many Muslims are stuck back in the 16th century? Why do you thing that Bin Ladin and his cronies are able to arouse such fanaticism?

Instead of commenting on the disgusting statement by Koumeni, what do you do? Perhaps child abuse, especially of young females, is of no concern to you, but as a social worker who has seen more than her share of abuse cases, it is a very big deal to me.

Can't you even comment on such abuse? Have you been so blinded by the politically correct gospel of diversity that nothing is wrong except to speak out against it?
Agree with crusader. A prophet should lead by example. If a religion is meant to be eternal for all ages, it is no good to say that what its prophet done, albight 1400 years ago, is not accepted now. This means that this religion is no good as a religion now. So for Muslims they nead to do better. A nine year old child is a nine year old now and 1500 years ago.

[Snarf]

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Islam, sexual intercourse is for procreation. Do you think a nine year old girl should be having babies?
Do you think that God should have had sex with Mary?

[Snarf]

Agree with crusader. A prophet should lead by example. If a religion is meant to be eternal for all ages, it is no good to say that what its prophet done, albight 1400 years ago, is not accepted now. This means that this religion is no good as a religion now. So for Muslims they nead to do better. A nine year old child is a nine year old now and 1500 years ago.

And Jesus-YHWH told His followers to kill homosexuals and adulterers. Should that be acceptable now?

[kiwimac]

A prophet is a member of their cultural milieu. They live according to their culture's values. It can't be otherwise. If they live outside their culture, they have nothing to say TO their culture.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

A prophet is a member of their cultural milieu. They live according to their culture's values. It can't be otherwise. If they live outside their culture, they have nothing to say TO their culture.

Kiwimac
I believe that Jesus had a great deal to say to those living at a certain place, time and culture - and not only then, but for those of us now as well.

And, Jesus never sexually molested children.

[Snarf]

I believe that Jesus had a great deal to say to those living at a certain place, time and culture - and not only then, but for those of us now as well.

And, Jesus never sexually molested children.
No, He just ordered His followers to kill male enemies and takes their wives for themselves. He also sent the Angel of Death to kill Egyptian children.

[Krusader]

No, He just ordered His followers to kill male enemies and takes their wives for themselves. He also sent the Angel of Death to kill Egyptian children.
And you dare to identify yourself with a cross? How could any Christian, however liberal, have the disrespect you do for Christ? You are putting Him in the same category as the pedophile and rapist, Mohammed. You should really be ashamed.

[Snarf]

And you dare to identify yourself with a cross? How could any Christian, however liberal, have the disrespect you do for Christ? You are putting Him in the same category as the pedophile and rapist, Mohammed. You should really be ashamed.

From evilbible.com
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)



So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.



The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

These are all words found in our holy book. We can admit the honest truth about our God: people thought that He told them to kill and rape. Were they correct? (I don't know the answer).

[Krusader]

From evilbible.com
1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)



So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.



The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

These are all words found in our holy book. We can admit the honest truth about our God: people thought that He told them to kill and rape. Were they correct? (I don't know the answer).

This post was regarding the pedophilia of Mohammed, who ravished a 9-year old child due to his insane sexual lust. Not only that, but Mohammed claimed sexual priviledges with Jewish captives, and slaves.

This is what the post was about - and you try to justify these horrendous acts by the Old Testament record of what happened to the Egyptians who refused (although warned and warned again by Moses) to allow the Hebrews to leave?

That's really poor!

[wolf]

And you dare to identify yourself with a cross? How could any Christian, however liberal, have the disrespect you do for Christ? You are putting Him in the same category as the pedophile and rapist, Mohammed. You should really be ashamed.

I have provided ample evidence to yourself that the age of Aisha is open to question becaues of dubious reporting and other reasons (see earlier post) now either refrain from using slanderous language against the Prophet PBUH or refute the evidence I have provided. Oh and try and answer Snarfs post below he makes an excellent point.


Wasalam (peace)


Wolf

[wolf]

This post was regarding the pedophilia of Mohammed, who ravished a 9-year old child due to his insane sexual lust. Not only that, but Mohammed claimed sexual priviledges with Jewish captives, and slaves.

This is what the post was about - and you try to justify these horrendous acts by the Old Testament record of what happened to the Egyptians who refused (although warned and warned again by Moses) to allow the Hebrews to leave?

That's really poor!


Crusader try actually answering the point he made and plaese answer in detail the evidence I have provided Re Aisha's age earlier in this Thread. It would be nice if you didn't assume your conclusion just to slander Islam but actually discussed the evidence.

Oh and BTW How exactly is:

"Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead."


Not a horrendous act by your defintion.


Wasalam


Wolf

[Snarf]

I have provided ample evidence to yourself that the age of Aisha is open to question becaues of dubious reporting and other reasons (see earlier post) now either refrain from using slanderous language against the Prophet PBUH or refute the evidence I have provided. Oh and try and answer Snarfs post below he makes an excellent point.


Wasalam (peace)


Wolf
Thank you Wolf. I have no opinon on Islam because I know nothing about it, or Muhammed for that matter. What I know is that many in the world revere him (PBUH), and for that reason alone if no other he should not be slandered.
(Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.) For Christians to make such attacks and ignore the bloody verses in our own holy book is hypocritical, also it demonstrates more than anything else that the modern understanding of a religion should not be by projecting one's morals onto the past.

I also reject completely these idiotic attacks made on Islam by certain people here. My love of Jesus is not based on attacking others.

[Snarf]

This post was regarding the pedophilia of Mohammed, who ravished a 9-year old child due to his insane sexual lust. Not only that, but Mohammed claimed sexual priviledges with Jewish captives, and slaves.

This is what the post was about - and you try to justify these horrendous acts by the Old Testament record of what happened to the Egyptians who refused (although warned and warned again by Moses) to allow the Hebrews to leave?

That's really poor!

I'm not trying to justify any acts of Muhammed, since I don't know what was considered ethical in his day. Why should he have lived up to 21st century standards of behavior?

My point is your hypocrisy and double standard. You worship a God who is alleged to have murdered children for revenge, who ordered adulterers to be killed, etc. and you accuse Muslims of following an evil leader? Why is it that if the Lord orders Midianites to be slaughtered to protect the Israelites, that's OK but it's wrong for Allah to order Muslims to kill someone to protect them?

This is crucial, because you are using certain verses of the Koran to imply that all terrorists are Muslim, thereby demonizing them. When certain verses of your holy book are pointed out to be equally violent, you excuse it.

Remember, the Nazis demonized Jews and we know why they wanted to do it.
Why are you demonizing Muslims?

[wolf]

I'm not trying to justify any acts of Muhammed, since I don't know what was considered ethical in his day. Why should he have lived up to 21st century standards of behavior?

My point is your hypocrisy and double standard. You worship a God who is alleged to have murdered children for revenge, who ordered adulterers to be killed, etc. and you accuse Muslims of following an evil leader? Why is it that if the Lord orders Midianites to be slaughtered to protect the Israelites, that's OK but it's wrong for Allah to order Muslims to kill someone to protect them?

This is crucial, because you are using certain verses of the Koran to imply that all terrorists are Muslim, thereby demonizing them. When certain verses of your holy book are pointed out to be equally violent, you excuse it.

Remember, the Nazis demonized Jews and we know why they wanted to do it.
Why are you demonizing Muslims?


I totally agree with you. I am a Muslim in the West and have many Christian friends. None thanfully go to the extent that crusader does in slander. Your pint is accurate it is totally hypocritical to slander Islam for acertain act(when looked at in proper context, it may well not be guilty of) and ignore similar acts in the Bible OT which again in context may have an explanation. This thedefining tactic of certain Christian apologists eg answering Islam etc.

I thank you for your support in exposing such tactics Snarf, and I am sure Chrsitains and Muslims can have rational, open productive discouse (even heated but in an academic sense) without resorting to the lowest common denominator. Reading people like Crusader is like reading some of the atheists in the Apologetics section. Surely we are above that level


Thanks


Wasalam



Wolf

[Krusader]

I totally agree with you. I am a Muslim in the West and have many Christian friends. None thanfully go to the extent that crusader does in slander. Your pint is accurate it is totally hypocritical to slander Islam for acertain act(when looked at in proper context, it may well not be guilty of) and ignore similar acts in the Bible OT which again in context may have an explanation. This thedefining tactic of certain Christian apologists eg answering Islam etc.

I thank you for your support in exposing such tactics Snarf, and I am sure Chrsitains and Muslims can have rational, open productive discouse (even heated but in an academic sense) without resorting to the lowest common denominator. Reading people like Crusader is like reading some of the atheists in the Apologetics section. Surely we are above that level


Thanks


Wasalam



Wolf
Snarf, please note that your ally here, Wolf, is a Muslim, who would deny that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. You say you are not familiar with Islam, please familiarize yourself with it.

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

Please answer Snarf's post.

My point is your hypocrisy and double standard. You worship a God who is alleged to have murdered children for revenge, who ordered adulterers to be killed, etc. and you accuse Muslims of following an evil leader? Why is it that if the Lord orders Midianites to be slaughtered to protect the Israelites, that's OK but it's wrong for Allah to order Muslims to kill someone to protect them?

This is crucial, because you are using certain verses of the Koran to imply that all terrorists are Muslim, thereby demonizing them. When certain verses of your holy book are pointed out to be equally violent, you excuse it.

Remember, the Nazis demonized Jews and we know why they wanted to do it.
Why are you demonizing Muslims?

And your answer here Snarf, please note that your ally here, Wolf, is a Muslim, who would deny that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. You say you are not familiar with Islam, please familiarize yourself with it. is simply a red-herring.

WHY is it offensive to you as a Christian to have the atrocities of the OT brought to your attention but it is OK when you do it to Muslims?

Kiwimac

[Snarf]

Snarf, please note that your ally here, Wolf, is a Muslim, who would deny that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. You say you are not familiar with Islam, please familiarize yourself with it.

So what if he/she is Muslim? We can't be friends?
Islam is not totally unknown to me, I am aware of the basics. However, I admit my lack of knowledge to form an opinion of it. Lack of knowledge does not keep me from being a friend to Muslims, it's part of being human, and it's what Christ taught (Do unto others).

Even in ignorance of Islam, I see the dark path that vilifying Muslims leads to. It is a view which says that because the religion is evil, the followers are necessarily evil. If the the followers can't be converted from believing the evil, then the evil can be killed only by killing them. Such hatred can only lead to more war, more people being killed, including more US soldiers, dying to appease the hatred of Islam. If find it strange that those who claim to love the US can so callously desire war in which US citizens are killed. People who desire war should have the guts to face that which they love. Americans who want war want to see US soldiers be killed.

[Krusader]

So what if he/she is Muslim? We can't be friends?
Islam is not totally unknown to me, I am aware of the basics. However, I admit my lack of knowledge to form an opinion of it. Lack of knowledge does not keep me from being a friend to Muslims, it's part of being human, and it's what Christ taught (Do unto others).

Even in ignorance of Islam, I see the dark path that vilifying Muslims leads to. It is a view which says that because the religion is evil, the followers are necessarily evil. If the the followers can't be converted from believing the evil, then the evil can be killed only by killing them. Such hatred can only lead to more war, more people being killed, including more US soldiers, dying to appease the hatred of Islam. If find it strange that those who claim to love the US can so callously desire war in which US citizens are killed. People who desire war should have the guts to face that which they love. Americans who want war want to see US soldiers be killed.

Response: Don't shift the argument to whether we should be friends with Muslims - I am discussing their doctrine. For instance, I have a good friend who is a Mormon, but I have no problem pointing out to her and others the fallacy of that belief system.

And then you switch again to Americans sending troops to be killed (I gather that's Iraq your talking about). Well, as far as I'm concerned they should reinstitue the draft. My Son was a Marine - nobody told him he had to go, he simply went. Which is a lot more than some of you guys here would ever do for your country.

[Snarf]

Response: Don't shift the argument to whether we should be friends with Muslims - I am discussing their doctrine. For instance, I have a good friend who is a Mormon, but I have no problem pointing out to her and others the fallacy of that belief system.

And then you switch again to Americans sending troops to be killed (I gather that's Iraq your talking about). Well, as far as I'm concerned they should reinstitue the draft. My Son was a Marine - nobody told him he had to go, he simply went. Which is a lot more than some of you guys here would ever do for your country.

You still haven't answered the question raised.
Why do you call Islam evil, when your own holy book describes the actions of a God who orders His followers to kill.

[kiwimac]

Crusader,

Quit the Ad hominem attacks on people and answer the question.

Kiwimac

[Krusader]

Crusader,

Quit the Ad hominem attacks on people and answer the question.

Kiwimac
You think everything is an ad hominem attack if it is a disagreement with somebody else's view.

See: Vol. 7, Book 62, No. 88 as narrated by 'Ursa
and No. 65 as narrated by Aisha.

[Snarf]

You think everything is an ad hominem attack if it is a disagreement with somebody else's view.

See: Vol. 7, Book 62, No. 88 as narrated by 'Ursa
and No. 65 as narrated by Aisha.

Still doesn't answer my question. Cat got your tongue?

[Krusader]

Still doesn't answer my question. Cat got your tongue?

Refresh my mind, wasn't your question on Aisha? The references I gave you are from the Muslim hadith.

[Snarf]

Refresh my mind, wasn't your question on Aisha? The references I gave you are from the Muslim hadith.

Why do you call Islam evil, when your own holy book describes the actions of a God who orders His followers to kill?

Since your God orders His followers to kill, by what standard do you judge Muhammed's taking a 9 year old to be a wife evil? Where is this considered to be a sin in the Bible?

[Sparko]

OK Snarf, what is all this "your holy book" and "your God" business? Are you a Christian or not? I am asking this as a moderator so please answer. Use PM if you wish.

========
To answer your question, having sex with a 9 year old is child sexual abuse and pedaphilia, no matter what the culture or time period. Even if they thought it was OK, it was not and was a sin.

If there was a culture that thought it was OK to skin babies for place mats, would that make it OK? NO. Some things are intrinsically evil. Having sex with a 9 year old is one such thing.

[Krusader]

Why do you call Islam evil, when your own holy book describes the actions of a God who orders His followers to kill?

Since your God orders His followers to kill, by what standard do you judge Muhammed's taking a 9 year old to be a wife evil? Where is this considered to be a sin in the Bible?
Snarf, I don't believe you know much about Islam, and apparently just like to argue with Christians.

Let me give you a little lesson in Islamic doctrine and beliefs:

1. Jesus Christ (Isa) did not die on a cross. Somebody else died in his place, possibly Judas. (Now, who would want to destroy the cross?)
2. Jesus Christ will return at the end of time and destroy the cross and establish Islam (ask yourself, again, who would want to destroy the cross?).
3. Mohammed is the seal of the prophets, the greatest of prophets and was sinless (even though he was a murderer, rapist and pedophile and bandit).
4. The Christians do not have the Gospel (Injil), which was somehow destroyed.
5. They loathe the Apostle Paul - just try discussing Paul with a Muslim.
6. Jesus, the Apostles, and O.T. characters were all Muslims.
7. The Koran teaches that the Trinity of the Christians is Father, Son, and Mary.
8. All non-Muslims living in Muslim countries are considered dhimmis, and must pay an special tax, are deprived of voting rights, may not practice their religion openly, and cannot hold public office - and there are many other restrictions.
9. Regardless of what Wolf states, the penalty for apostasy from Islam is death if he/she does not repent.
10. The Quran of Mohammed changes OT narratives, having Abraham attempting to sacrifice Ishmael for instance, and one of Noah's sons drowing in the flood.
11. The black rock in the Ka'baa is a meteorite worshipped in the pre-Islamic culture, and is a holdover from paganism, as is the pilgrimage.
12. Muslims are counseled in the Quran to never take Jews or Christians for friends.
13. The god Allah has promised that he will roast the skins of we infidels, and when they have been roasted, will replace them with new skins so that they can roast some more. Is the the God of Christians?


If you read Romans, Chapter 1, you will note that God has imprinted on all men's hearts the message of his existence which is verified by His creation. There is a common moral thread that runs through all civilizations - and the ravishing of a nine year old girl by a fifty year old man is obviously a moral taboo in all cultures and civilizations.

If you cannot see this, than I must conclude that we are in touch with different "spirits," and that further conversation would be futile.

[Snarf]

Snarf, I don't believe you know much about Islam, and apparently just like to argue with Christians.

Let me give you a little lesson in Islamic doctrine and beliefs:

If you read Romans, Chapter 1, you will note that God has imprinted on all men's hearts the message of his existence which is verified by His creation. There is a common moral thread that runs through all civilizations - and the ravishing of a nine year old girl by a fifty year old man is obviously a moral taboo in all cultures and civilizations.

If you cannot see this, than I must conclude that we are in touch with different "spirits," and that further conversation would be futile.

A lesson in Christian beliefs:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

I'm not sure why having a 9 year old wife is immoral going by the standards of a religion which teaches that fortune tellers must be killed and the children of foreigners can be slaves.

This is your preferred religion?

[moonlight3]

:eek:

I'm not sure why having a 9 year old wife is immoral going by the standards of a religion which teaches that fortune tellers must be killed and the children of foreigners can be slaves.


Having sex (penetration) with a nine year old is paedophilia.
Mohamed was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 years old, she was engaged previously to a child like her, Mohamed was 52 years old then.
Between six and nine years old, Mohamed used to have her on his lap and play with her, in a sexual way!

[Sparko]

A lesson in Christian beliefs:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

I'm not sure why having a 9 year old wife is immoral going by the standards of a religion which teaches that fortune tellers must be killed and the children of foreigners can be slaves.

This is your preferred religion?
Apparently it is YOUR preferred religion too, Snarf. Care to comment on that?

[watsup]

So once again you are dealing with the world of 1500 years ago from a modern POV. It does not and indeed cannot work. Are you going to judge Abraham by todays standards? Lot? Noah? Samson? Joshua?

If not then why would you judge Muhammad that way?

Kiwimac

Hi kiwimac (if you are still around) and all others who protest/counter that Mohd's disgusting sexual violating of Aishah shouldn't be anything out of the norm, of that time and that culture - and that one should not harp on something that took place "1500 years" ago.

The questions are:

Why would God need this immoral sex-pervert Mohammed to be His "final prevailing prophet AFTER (YES, AFTER) SINLESS Jesus Christ, Son of God, God"?

Why would God need Mohammed to be His role model for countless numbers of Muslim great grand fathers/uncles, grandfathers/uncles, fathers/uncles, brothers, cousins, strangers to force themselves sexually into 9 year old Muslim girls in Islamic countries, right up to last week and this week and the weeks ahead and ahead and ahead?

Who needed Mohammed to be "also sinless prophet for Islam and final prophet to restore highest standards for enforcement upon all humankind"? With this "prophet" Mohammed given license and approval to "sinlessly enjoy" 9 year old girls, sexually?

God needed Mohammed to "sinlessly enjoy" 9 year old girls? Or Satan who needed Mohammed to "sinlessly enjoy" 9 year old girls?

Only and only correct answer: Only Satan needed - nearly 600 years AFTER SINLESS Jesus Christ, Son of God - to finally succeed in his talent search which resulted in his being MOST pleased with Mohammed to be his prophet to render it "sinless and holy" for elderly males and not so elderly Muslim males to "sinlessly enjoy" 9 year old girls, sexually !!!

Why Satan's need to make it "very holy and sinless" for Muslim males to "sinlessly enjoy" 9 year old girls, sexually?

So that he would have no lack of depraved males to do anything to become and remain as Muslims - and to do his bidding in warring against God and God's people.

Sex, sex, sex and more sex,
PLUS apostasy law, apostasy law and more apostasy law,
PLUS every sin committed by a person before becoming a Muslim will be converted into holy deed/points upon becoming a Muslim.
PLUS even more (this time, virgin sex) with "doe-eyed nubiles in paradise" for Muslim amles who died fighting for Islam's allah
Coated over by his mother/father of a sick lies "there is no compulsion of religion in Islam" and "committing adultery is a sin",

The strategy of Islam's allah also known as (aka Satan) for his islam to be "the world's fastest growing religion, especially in the prisons which hold hard core murderers and rapists".

In short - ONLY AND ONLY SATAN would and could have most desperate need to corrupt, pervert, revert whatever God had taught, revealed and written.

Therefore - ta-ta-ta !!! - his prophet Mohammed, his Quran and his approved Sunni and Shiite hadiths.

Sorry Muslims, try harder. Very, very sorry.

Have your highest religious officials and scholars to come up with new justifications for your Islam's allah to approve his Mohammed and Muslim males to have sex.sex.sex and more sex with 9 year old Muslim girls.

The standard of comparision CANNOT be the practice of practices "1,500 years before Mohammed's time".

The standard of comparison is Jesus Christ, Son of God, God.

The reason why Islam's allah, being Satan, had to deny as being no Son of God and no God - so as to pave the way for his introduction of evil Mohammed and Islam. And the introduction of his Mohammed to ensure that his Islam will never lack depraved male murderers, rapists and perverts to be his "fearsome" jihad warriors.

Islam's allah CAN ONLY be and WAS AND IS indeed, Satan.

No more, no less.

The Satan who suckers his Muslims into committing Ramadhan-style fasts. The Satan who gets millions of Muslims annually to spend huge sums of money to go for "pilgrimage" at Mecca and Medina to (of all things) walk in circles worshipping a black stone of a meteorite in the Kaaba. And the Satan who gets all of these millions to at another site (and another mother.father of all laughs) "throw pebbles at Satan".

With all these Muslims returning from this baloney of any "pligrimage" feeling "very cleansed, enlightened, blessed and holy." As "very cleansed, enlightened, blessed and holy" as drug addicts after having gone for their "pilgrimages" to a crack house.

With Satan laughing and rubbing his hands with glee.

Nothing mocking from watsup on Islam's allah, his Mohammed, his Quran, his (be it, Sunni or Shiite) hadiths and his Muslims. In truth, only grief, sorrow and love from watsup for Muslims - over how Islam's allah, his Mohammed, his Islam, his Quran and his (Sunni and Shiite) hadiths mock and damn Muslims - to hell.

Love from watsup for Muslims - by being loving enough, to do everything to shake and wake up Muslims to make a 180 degree turn, from the fast-track Islam-lane they are all on to sure hell.

[barnasha]

:eek:
Having sex (penetration) with a nine year old is paedophilia.
Mohamed was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 years old, she was engaged previously to a child like her, Mohamed was 52 years old then.
Between six and nine years old, Mohamed used to have her on his lap and play with her, in a sexual way!

That would be a great way for you to try to attack Muhammad, I guess...

Except none of the literature actually says that, it's inferred by people with sick minds, who can only think about women as sexual objects.

Really all this exposes is your willingness to go along with the pre-fabricated arguments by anti-Islam propagandists.

Either that or your obsession with sexual desire between men and women.

Regardless, since you probably really DO believe all the hysteria about Muhammad marrying a 9 year old, and how that's impure and bad, why don't you address the following questions:

1) Aisha was engaged to a Jew before the prophet Muhammad. Christians and Jews betrothed women much younger. This was a common practice in this day and it was not some sort of sexual deviancy, at least by standards of those cultures.

2) Why did nobody at that time raise a big stink about Muhammad being a pedophile? Surely it would have been the MAIN argument against the guy since the Quraysh or any of his other enemies looked for any little thing to get him. It was so hard for them to dig up any dirt on Muhammad since he was so clean, known as "Al Ameen" because of his trustworthiness.

3) If Muhammad was really a pedophile, why would he not find some slave girls to abuse sexually, so then he wouldn't have to marry them? Why would he pick his best friend's daughter, ask him for her hand in marriage, marry and raise her, educate her, etc. Why would his best friend agree?

Really it's sad that such pure people who lived such a wonderful life (Aisha grew up to be a renowned scholar and thinker, well educated) are attacked by people like you. But your kinds are the ones who seem sad, trying desperately to make other people look bad for your own benefit.

By making Muslims look bad you feel a sense of pride in who you are, it makes you feel better, otherwise why would you be doing it? Why single out Muslims? Tons of stuff going on. Go talk about the Burmese dictators for a while and give the canned anti-Islamic propaganda a break for a week or two so we can all have some peace.

[watsup]

That would be a great way for you to try to attack Muhammad, I guess...

Except none of the literature actually says that, it's inferred by people with sick minds, who can only think about women as sexual objects.

Really all this exposes is your willingness to go along with the pre-fabricated arguments by anti-Islam propagandists.

Either that or your obsession with sexual desire between men and women.

Regardless, since you probably really DO believe all the hysteria about Muhammad marrying a 9 year old, and how that's impure and bad, why don't you address the following questions:

1) Aisha was engaged to a Jew before the prophet Muhammad. Christians and Jews betrothed women much younger. This was a common practice in this day and it was not some sort of sexual deviancy, at least by standards of those cultures.

2) Why did nobody at that time raise a big stink about Muhammad being a pedophile? Surely it would have been the MAIN argument against the guy since the Quraysh or any of his other enemies looked for any little thing to get him. It was so hard for them to dig up any dirt on Muhammad since he was so clean, known as "Al Ameen" because of his trustworthiness.

3) If Muhammad was really a pedophile, why would he not find some slave girls to abuse sexually, so then he wouldn't have to marry them? Why would he pick his best friend's daughter, ask him for her hand in marriage, marry and raise her, educate her, etc. Why would his best friend agree?

Really it's sad that such pure people who lived such a wonderful life (Aisha grew up to be a renowned scholar and thinker, well educated) are attacked by people like you. But your kinds are the ones who seem sad, trying desperately to make other people look bad for your own benefit.

By making Muslims look bad you feel a sense of pride in who you are, it makes you feel better, otherwise why would you be doing it? Why single out Muslims? Tons of stuff going on. Go talk about the Burmese dictators for a while and give the canned anti-Islamic propaganda a break for a week or two so we can all have some peace.

The whoever Burmese dictators your refer to are certainly dictators, with a difference. The difference being that they do not go around declaring that they are "the God of Abraham's final prevailing prophets after Jesus Christ".

Unlike your Islam's dictator Mohammed, who murderously used knives, swords. spears and clubs to insist that he was "the God of Abraham's final prevailing prophet after Jesus Christ".

Now, back to the question, barnasha.

It was God of Abraham or it was Satan (Islam's allah) who found Mohammed eminently qalified to be Islam's prophet for having penetrative sex, sex, sex with 9 year old Aisha?

Who, barnasha?

[Bigmo]

There is no mention of Aisha in the Koran.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Narnian]

If not then why would you judge Muhammad that way?

Noah, Joshua, Abraham etc where not deemed "the last and most important prophet" and they were not considered future role models for all mankind. But Muhammad IS the role model and standard of exalted behaviour and character:

Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. (33:21, Y. Ali)
And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character. (68:4, Y. Ali)


Read this essay for an overview of Muhammad's character:
Mohammed without Camouflage

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Gairdner/camouflage.htm

[barnasha]

The whoever Burmese dictators your refer to are certainly dictators, with a difference. The difference being that they do not go around declaring that they are "the God of Abraham's final prevailing prophets after Jesus Christ".


So you care more about whether or not someone is Muslim than if evil is being done.

Those dead monks really don't give a damn what you think about Islam, and neither do most muslims or level-headed christians, I hope.

My point has now been proven, you are more focused on hating Islam than being against something evil, you have PERSONAL issues.

Jesus did not help people for his own image and pride, he actually felt it in his heart.

you should try that sometime.

take your personal, emotional issues, your hate for Islam, and meditate on it for a while. come back and show us some Christ-like behavior.

[watsup]

Originally posted by watsup
The whoever Burmese dictators your refer to are certainly dictators, with a difference. The difference being that they do not go around declaring that they are "the God of Abraham's final prevailing prophets after Jesus Christ".
So you care more about whether or not someone is Muslim than if evil is being done.

===============

Posted by a "plummelled" concussed covert Muslim (===with reply from watsup===):

Those dead monks really don't give a damn what you think about Islam, and neither do most muslims or level-headed christians, I hope.

(=== Says who? Say that "plummelled concussed" overt Muslim? Modestly letting you in one this. watsup had made representations to relevant international authorities to lawfully hunt down and dispose those guilty generals like how rabid animals should be hunted down and disposed. ===)

My point has now been proven, you are more focused on hating Islam than being against something evil, you have PERSONAL issues.

(=== ??? How as yours truly's concerted, open and just hating Islam and Islam's designer architect as being evil needed your proving? OIC, watsup has forgotten - what are truly Islam and Islam's designer are pure, and holy to covert Muslims. ====)

Jesus did not help people for his own image and pride, he actually felt it in his heart.

(=== Which Jesus? Jesus Christ, Son of God, God? Or the Jesus Islam's designer architect downgrades to "Isa (pbuh"? Which Jesus?===)

you should try that sometime.

(=== Try what? Try the "waffling" of trained covert Muslims? ===)

take your personal, emotional issues, your hate for Islam, and meditate on it for a while. come back and show us some Christ-like behavior.

(=== Which Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ, Son of God, God? Or the Jesus Christ Islam's designer architect downgrades to "Isa (pbuh)"? Which Jesus Christ? ===)

[barnasha]

Mother Teresa would not ask a stupid question like "which Jesus".

You are acting like a churl.

[watsup]

Mother Teresa would not ask a stupid question like "which Jesus".

You are acting like a churl.

Do you think "Mother" Teresa would think it was stupid or not stupid of Islam's allah in not having punished his star-Muslim, 53 year old Islam's glorious prophet - for having ingloriously forced himself into 9 year old Aishah, not once - but repeatedly, be they viciously or less viciously?

[barnasha]

I'd appreciate it if your additions to this public web site were more mature.

Some kids might be out there reading this.

[watsup]

I'd appreciate it if your additions to this public web site were more mature.

Some kids might be out there reading this.

Borrowing your words, stop "acting like a churl".

Tell it to your Islam's teachers of the Quran, Sunni-approved hadiths, Shiite-approved hadiths in the religious classes to the Muslim pre-puberty and post-puberty kids and the yet-to-mature and the matured adults - males and females.

To think of it, that you have rebuked yours truly to post MORE MATURE things here, instead of posting what you allege to be immature things that yours truly has been posting. Never decline a good, very good offer.

Hang on for a few days more (so that you cannot accuse yours truly "flooding" this forum with new threads). A new thread will be created to focus on the "MORE MATURE" things and happenings which are recorded in Islam's "hallowed" Quran and approved hadiths.

You will help invite many, many more Muslims to this forum? Please? To promote "better understanding between Muslims and Christians".

[OfficialPro]

A lesson in Christian beliefs:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

I'm not sure why having a 9 year old wife is immoral going by the standards of a religion which teaches that fortune tellers must be killed and the children of foreigners can be slaves.

This is your preferred religion?

Ahhh, the fallacy of tu quoque.

You really love this fundy-atheist/skeptic stuff, don't you, snarf? There you are sitting in your chair comfortably typing away, ignorant of the realities of ancient life in the Near East. Society was always "one paycheck away" from total chaos, and harsh punishments were needed to keep people in line. What you're really objecting to is the Death Penalty, and that's not really a legitimate analogy to what is being discussed. Never mind that "slavery" in the context that you drag up isn't anything like "slavery" that we know of from the Americas. Did you know that in the Bible, if a slave ran away, they were FREE? And were NOT to be returned to sender? So much for your argument by outrage. (fallacy of argument from emotion)

Evilbible.com is full of ignorant noobs who haven't got a clue on context. And even more amusing is it's a bunch of fundy-atheists who have no solid basis for moral values, which renders their charges inane, because if morality is only someone's opinion, who are they to impose their opinion on others and be outraged by it?

[Narnian]

Tabari Hadith: IX:131: (Aisha narrated)

"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face .... the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

Disgusting old pervert! Prophet from God? You've got to be joking :uhoh:

[moose7237]

Tabari Hadith: IX:131: (Aisha narrated)

"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face .... the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

Disgusting old pervert! Prophet from God? You've got to be joking :uhoh:

Hello and Peace be to you friend,


I reject this Hadith Narnian, PROVE to me that it is a valid one!


http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/ayesha_age_the_myth_of__a_prover.htm

This site proves the contradictions of Aisha's age.

Also Narnian, I never found your response to this question, so I will ask it again:

Was Abraham real or a myth?

[watsup]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,


I reject this Hadith Narnian, PROVE to me that it is a valid one!


http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_200/ayesha_age_the_myth_of__a_prover.htm

This site proves the contradictions of Aisha's age.

Also Narnian, I never found your response to this question, so I will ask it again:

Was Abraham real or a myth?

Hi Narnian.

You might like to remind Moose thatthe TABARI hadith was the FIRST hadith those 100 top most Islamic scholars and leaders quoted as PROOF that Islam's is what Islam is - in their, now, famous "rebuttal" of a that famous quote which Mr Pope Benedict gave in his speech.

Do let me know should wish to know the names and the titles of those 100 "eminent" Islamic scholars and leaders.

[Narnian]

It is not only in this Hadith but many others where Aisha is 9 years old. Different writters and narrators, including aisha herself puts her age at 9.

Secondly, it begs the question: WHY would muslims LIE to make their prophet look bad?? I mean, I can understand someone lying about Muhammad saying that he performed miracles, or flew to heaven on a horse, to impress people, but to lie to make him look like a pervert doesn't seem logical.

Was Abraham real or a myth?

That one has already been answered. Here it is again:

The flood occurred when a much revered river that ran through the Thar desert changed direction and then dried up by 2100BC. The name of this river was the Sarasvati. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_river "The Sarasvati by this time had become a mythical "disappeared" river, and the name was transferred to the "Ghaggar"" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar .... which was still flowing.

But due to changed agricultural conditions from the flood and dyring up, a large migration of Hindus moved westwards with their god "Brahma". They reached what is now known as Israel and decided to call it home. Here Abraham (Brahma) had a son with his wife Sarah's (Sarasvati's) slave (tributary); Haggar (Ghaggar), because Sarah(svati) was "barren" - she was "dried up". But after a dream, Sarah(svati) conceived in her old age and bore Abraham (Brahma) a son, who would give birth to Jacob - who became Israel (the nation) and Esau (which means Edom - the Edomites; inferior). Sarasvati is also Brahma's sister in Hindu mythology and there is a story in Genesis where Abraham tells some men that Sarah is his sister.

"...and yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." (Genesis 20:12.)

"God" brings Abraham (Brahma) from the other side of the flood - which is India - to Israel.

"...Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, Even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor; and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan." (Joshua 24:2-3.)

[Narnian]

Hi Narnian.

You might like to remind Moose thatthe TABARI hadith was the FIRST hadith those 100 top most Islamic scholars and leaders quoted as PROOF that Islam's is what Islam is - in their, now, famous "rebuttal" of a that famous quote which Mr Pope Benedict gave in his speech.

Do let me know should wish to know the names and the titles of those 100 "eminent" Islamic scholars and leaders.

Thanks Watsup. Yes, the more evidence we show our muslim friends the better.

I have already seen the rebuttals to Aisha's age and they are all desperate attempts to rescue their "prophet".

The evidence that Aisha was 9 and that Mo was a dirty old pervert is overwhelming.

I tried to Amen your post but it won't let me - (perhaps they wait for 45 minutes in case you edit it with something that doesn't match the Amen :lol: )

[watsup]

Thanks Watsup. Yes, the more evidence we show our muslim friends the better.

I have already seen the rebuttals to Aisha's age and they are all desperate attempts to rescue their "prophet".

The evidence that Aisha was 9 and that Mo was a dirty old pervert is overwhelming.

I tried to Amen your post but it won't let me - (perhaps they wait for 45 minutes in case you edit it with something that doesn't match the Amen :lol: )

Amen, Narnian! Amen!

To ALL Muslims (and non-Muslims) who would try to get Mohammed off the "Tabari-hook" (the Tabari which celebrates so many damning and very embrassing things said, thought, taught and personally did by Mohammed), by stating that the Tabari hadith is NOT approved by whichever sub-group of Muslims/Islam.

KINDLY click into the below and check through the 100 TOP names of Islamic scholars, for the name(s) of the representative(s) from the group(s) that endorsed the Tabari hadith (which desperate Muslims allege to be rejecting the authority of the Tabari hadith).

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/issue18/openletter18_lowres.pdf

Not the FIRST time Muslims are made to wish that those world's TOP 100 Muslim Islamic high scholars had not quoted Tabari - or had wriiten any "rebutall" to Mr Pope Benedict, to prove/defend/exalt Islam.

Interesting to see if any Muslim here will have anything "bad" more to allege against Tabari hadith in his/her attempt to rescue Mohammed.

Like how the pro-Shiite/anti-Sunni hadiths championing Muslims here have since gone siiiiiiiiiiiiiiilent about the supposed Shiite-hadiths which is supposedly to present the true Mohammed - only to find, to their great dismay, that the Shiite hadiths do only confirm the Sunni-hadiths which celebrate Mohammed's celebrating of sexual perversions.

Please Muslims. For the love of your souls. WAKE-UP !!!!!!

Writing truths NOT to mock you. Writing the HARSH truths to WAKE YOU UP to the HARSH lies which Islam's allah MOCKS, DECEIVES and DAMNS you.

WAKE UP !!!, please.

[barnasha]

as a student of Islamic history and culture, I find your "truths" laughable and your arguments non-existent. I wish you would stop causing fuss in here and trying to spread your agenda.

This is a discussion board, not a place for you to evangelize your hate against what you think is evil.

Please keep the arguments scientific or academic, and if you have any genuine questions, you are free to ask those too.

But if you continue to come here simply to spread "truths" which involve slandering the religion of a large portion of the earth's inhabitants, I will try and make sure everyone on this forum ignores you so we do not give you any purpose for continuing this juvenile behavior.

I think your time would be better spend reading the bible than posting pages and pages of hate to a website.

Thank you

"The LORD hates... a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
- proverbs

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."
- Luke 6:45

"A hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered."
- Proverbs 11:9

"He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool."
-Proverbs 10:18

"Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile."
-Psalms 34:13

"...speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men."
-Titus 3:2

"Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better. "
- Ecclesiastes 10:11

"Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. "
- Proverbs 26:20




Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 5:11

[Narnian]

Tabari Hadith: IX:131: (Aisha narrated)
"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face .... the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

Mr 10:14 - But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs.

mark 9:42 "If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea.

[barnasha]

Tabari Hadith: IX:131: (Aisha narrated)
"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face .... the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."



Is it true that "consummated" does not mean "perform sexual acts", it means "bring to completion"?

Is it true that the Arabic of the hadith (and indeed the translation) says nothing about sex, that it is your canned argument borrowed from anti-Islamic propagandists that infers some kind of "hanky panky"?

Is marriage all about sex to you?

Maybe that is why you wouldn't understand.

Another hadith has Aisha saying "Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old." (Sahih Muslim)

So perhaps "consummate" meant "admitted to his house".

So how would you argue "consummate" means "violate sexually" rather than "begin"? The fact that the word "CONSUMMATE" has a SEXUAL connotation THESE DAYS is not a valid one.

And seeing as everyone at that time had brides as young, do you think Muhammad was any worse than the Christians or Jews or pagans of the time? If so, is that just because you are an anti-Islamist, expressing the same kind of bigoted hatred as an anti-Semite?

[Bigmo]

You guys put too much weight with these hadith stories.

Schacht asserts that hadiths, particularly from Muhammad, did not form, together with the Qur'an, the original bases of Islamic law and jurisprudence as is traditionally assumed. Rather, hadiths were an innovation begun after some of the legal foundation had already been built. "The ancient schools of law shared the old concept of sunna or ‘living tradition’ as the ideal practice of the community, expressed in the accepted doctrine of the school." And this ideal practice was embodied in various forms, but certainly not exclusively in the hadiths from the Prophet. Schacht argues that it was not until al-Shafi`i that ‘sunna’ was exclusively identified with the contents of hadiths from the Prophet to which he gave, not for the first time, but for the first time consistently, overriding authority. Al-Shafi`i argued that even a single, isolated hadith going back to Muhammad, assuming its isnad is not suspect, takes precedence over the opinions and arguments of any and all Companions, Successors, and later authorities. Schacht notes that:

Two generations before Shafi`i reference to traditions from Companions and Successors was the rule, to traditions from the Prophet himself the exception, and it was left to Shafi`i to make the exception the principle. We shall have to conclude that, generally and broadly speaking, traditions from Companions and Successors are earlier than those from the Prophet.

Based on these conclusions, Schacht offers the following schema of the growth of legal hadiths. The ancient schools of law had a ‘living tradition’ (sunna) which was largely based on individual reasoning (ra'y). Later this sunna came to be associated with and attributed to the earlier generations of the Successors and Companions. Later still, hadiths with isnads extending back to Muhammad came into circulation by traditionists towards the middle of the second century. Finally, the efforts of al-Shafi`i and other traditionists secured for these hadiths from the Prophet supreme authority.

Goldziher maintains that, while reliance on the sunna to regulate the empire was favoured, there was still in these early years of Islam insufficient material going back to Muhammad himself. Scholars sought to fill the gaps left by the Qur'an and the sunna with material from other sources. Some borrowed from Roman law. Others attempted to fill these lacunae with their own opinions (ra'y). This latter option came under a concerted attack by those who believed that all legal and ethical questions (not addressed by the Qur'an) must be referred back to the Prophet himself, that is, must be rooted in hadiths.These supporters of hadiths (ahl al-hadith) were extremely successful in establishing hadiths as a primary source of law and in discrediting ra'y. But in many ways it was a Pyrrhic victory. The various legal madhhabs were loath to sacrifice their doctrines and so they found it more expedient to fabricate hadiths or adapt existing hadiths in their support. Even the advocates of ra'y were eventually persuaded or cajoled into accepting the authority of hadiths and so they too "found" hadiths which substantiated their doctrines that had hitherto been based upon the opinions of their schools’ founders and teachers. The insistence of the advocates of hadiths that the only opinions of any value were those which could appeal to the authority of the Prophet resulted in the situation that "where no traditional matter was to be had, men speedily began to fabricate it. The greater the demand, the busier was invention with the manufacture of apocryphal traditions in support of the respective theses."


In summary, Goldziher sees in hadiths "a battlefield of the political and dynastic conflicts of the first few centuries of Islam; it is a mirror of the aspirations of various parties, each of which wants to make the Prophet himself their witness and authority." Likewise,

Every stream and counter-stream of thought in Islam has found its expression in the form of a hadith, and there is no difference in this respect between the various contrasting opinions in whatever field. What we learnt about political parties holds true too for differences regarding religious law, dogmatic points of difference etc. Every ra'y or hawa, every sunna and bid`a has sought and found expression in the form of hadith.

And even though Muslim traditionalists developed elaborate means to scrutinize the mass of traditions that were then extant in the Muslim lands, they were "able to exclude only part of the most obvious falsifications from the hadith material." Goldziher, for all his scepticism, accepted that the practice of preserving hadiths was authentic and that some hadiths were likely to be authentic. However, having said that, Goldziher is adamant in maintaining that:

In the absence of authentic evidence it would indeed be rash to attempt to express the most tentative opinions as to which parts of the hadith are the oldest material, or even as to which of them date back to the generation immediately following the Prophet’s death. Closer acquaintance with the vast stock of hadiths induces sceptical caution rather than optimistic trust regarding the material brought together in the carefully compiled collections.

Real Islam is only in Koran. Koran is peace!

[barnasha]

You guys put too much weight with these hadith stories.


don't mistake them as impartial evaluators of what Islam is.

these people are grabbing anything they can to villify Islam.

or rather, the people from whom they lap up the formulated propaganda, they were the ones grabbing anything they could. These people are just copying those people..

I would be so happy if I was wrong. I sincerely hope I am.


Real Islam is only in Koran. Koran is peace!

that too is going too far. real Islam is when Adam repented after having messed up in the garden.

real Islam is when Noah did what God told him

real Islam is when Abraham refused to participate in the crazy religions of his people, forsaking them for common sense.

I am right because the Quran says so.

[watsup]

don't mistake them as impartial evaluators of what Islam is.

these people are grabbing anything they can to villify Islam.

or rather, the people from whom they lap up the formulated propaganda, they were the ones grabbing anything they could. These people are just copying those people..

I would be so happy if I was wrong. I sincerely hope I am.



that too is going too far. real Islam is when Adam repented after having messed up in the garden.

real Islam is when Noah did what God told him

real Islam is when Abraham refused to participate in the crazy religions of his people, forsaking them for common sense.

I am right because the Quran says so.

Waffling-specialist waffle. Mind providing a link to your "Realist religion" url bearing the above Islamic beliefs?

Back to this question. Why are you so "ashame" of the world "Muslim", to mask it as "Realist" ? How many months, years of training were you sent to -before you are deployed as a covert Muslim in forums like this?

[Narnian]

Is it true that "consummated" does not mean "perform sexual acts", it means "bring to completion"?

Is it true that the Arabic of the hadith (and indeed the translation) says nothing about sex, that it is your canned argument borrowed from anti-Islamic propagandists that infers some kind of "hanky panky"?

OK, Barny. What did Mo do to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha when she sat on his knee, on the bed, and everyone left the room? Please give us some ideas on what he might have done and why aisha called this thing "consummate"?

So perhaps "consummate" meant "admitted to his house".

This "consummation" took place at Aisha's house.
When when she sat on his knee, on the bed, and everyone left the room, what might he then have done? Barnasha? What did he do to her?

And seeing as everyone at that time had brides as young, do you think Muhammad was any worse than the Christians or Jews or pagans of the time? If so, is that just because you are an anti-Islamist, expressing the same kind of bigoted hatred as an anti-Semite?

Muhammad is the last and most important prophet. He is for all time as a role model to follow.

The person and life of Muhammad is put before us not only by contemporary Muslim authors, but already in the Quran as the ideal and role model to follow. The Qur'an states:

Ye have indeed in the Apostle of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. (33:21, Y. Ali)

And thou (standest) on an exalted standard of character. (68:4, Y. Ali)

[barnasha]

OK, Barny. What did Mo do to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha when she sat on his knee, on the bed, and everyone left the room? Please give us some ideas on what he might have done and why aisha called this thing "consummate"?



This "consummation" took place at Aisha's house.
When when she sat on his knee, on the bed, and everyone left the room, what might he then have done? Barnasha? What did he do to her?


I'm sure you have plenty of ideas. you seem to think a lot about perverted things.

I'd rather not hear about it though.

[moose7237]

It is not only in this Hadith but many others where Aisha is 9 years old. Different writters and narrators, including aisha herself puts her age at 9.

Secondly, it begs the question: WHY would muslims LIE to make their prophet look bad?? I mean, I can understand someone lying about Muhammad saying that he performed miracles, or flew to heaven on a horse, to impress people, but to lie to make him look like a pervert doesn't seem logical.

Hello and Peace be to you,

The site that I gave proved that Aisha's age is a clear cut contradiction. Since you did not even bother to stick up for the hadith you quote that Aisha was only 9, I accept it as it is a contradiction. Like I said, PROVE that she was 9, I have provided a source that proves she could have been 18. And I have also proved that the narrator for the hadith that says she is 9, is unreliable. Please start refuting that, since you love to quote that hadith so much prove that it is an accurate one.

Who ever said that this was a Muslim??? The man named Hisham who stated Aisha was 9 was a drunk, completely violating Islamic laws. Not all Hadiths are accurate Narnian. So maybe this non muslim lied to make Muhammad look bad, did you think of that possibility?



That one has already been answered. Here it is again:

The flood occurred when a much revered river that ran through the Thar desert changed direction and then dried up by 2100BC. The name of this river was the Sarasvati. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati_river "The Sarasvati by this time had become a mythical "disappeared" river, and the name was transferred to the "Ghaggar"" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghaggar .... which was still flowing.

But due to changed agricultural conditions from the flood and dyring up, a large migration of Hindus moved westwards with their god "Brahma". They reached what is now known as Israel and decided to call it home. Here Abraham (Brahma) had a son with his wife Sarah's (Sarasvati's) slave (tributary); Haggar (Ghaggar), because Sarah(svati) was "barren" - she was "dried up". But after a dream, Sarah(svati) conceived in her old age and bore Abraham (Brahma) a son, who would give birth to Jacob - who became Israel (the nation) and Esau (which means Edom - the Edomites; inferior). Sarasvati is also Brahma's sister in Hindu mythology and there is a story in Genesis where Abraham tells some men that Sarah is his sister.

"...and yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife." (Genesis 20:12.)

"God" brings Abraham (Brahma) from the other side of the flood - which is India - to Israel.

"...Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, Even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor; and they served other gods. And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan." (Joshua 24:2-3.)


This doesn't answer the question. I just want a simple yes or no answer.

[Narnian]

Like I said, PROVE that she was 9, I have provided a source that proves she could have been 18.

There are more than one sources that Aisha was 9. DId they all simultaneously lie? I doubt it.

And I have also proved that the narrator for the hadith that says she is 9, is unreliable.

the narrator was Aisha.

Who ever said that this was a Muslim??? The man named Hisham who stated Aisha was 9 was a drunk, completely violating Islamic laws. Not all Hadiths are accurate Narnian. So maybe this non muslim lied to make Muhammad look bad, did you think of that possibility?

OK, so when this "drunk" fake muslim coped down the story of Aisha's experiences, why didn't the people throw this out then? Why collect stories from a liar? Especially one who makes your prophet look like an evil paedophile.

This doesn't answer the question. I just want a simple yes or no answer.

Yes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Barnasha,
I'm sure you have plenty of ideas. you seem to think a lot about perverted things.

No Barnasha, I am inferior to you, remember? I truly cannot think what this guy did to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha left alone in a room while sitting on the bed with her on his knee. Please could you give me some "non perverted" ideas you might have?

[watsup]

.

There are more than one sources that Aisha was 9. DId they all simultaneously lie? I doubt it.

the narrator was Aisha.

OK, so when this "drunk" fake muslim coped down the story of Aisha's experiences, why didn't the people throw this out then? Why collect stories from a liar? Especially one who makes your prophet look like an evil paedophile.

Yes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Barnasha,

No Barnasha, I am inferior to you, remember? I truly cannot think what this guy did to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha left alone in a room while sitting on the bed with her on his knee. Please could you give me some "non perverted" ideas you might have?

Waffling specialist waffle.

Some "non-perverted" ideas you might be grateful for, for your answering to Narnian:

a) Mohammed went about most enthusiastically demonstative to 9 year Aisha how to connect the instruments for consumation together .

b) Mohammed merely proceeded with his "oral show and tell" sessions with 9-year old Aisha.

Only trying to help - having seen your pathetic attempts in always trying to waffle out from your waffle hot plates that you are clamped between.

Anyway, best to hear it from your own anterior orifice: Kindly answer Narnian's questions, quote:
"No Barnasha, I am inferior to you, remember? I truly cannot think what this guy did to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha left alone in a room while sitting on the bed with her on his knee. Please could you give me some "non perverted" ideas you might have?" Unquote.

[barnasha]

No Barnasha, I am inferior to you, remember? I truly cannot think what this guy did to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha left alone in a room while sitting on the bed with her on his knee. Please could you give me some "non perverted" ideas you might have?
Marriage is not about copulating.

So perhaps "consummate" meant "admitted to his house".

This "consummation" took place at Aisha's house.
When when she sat on his knee, on the bed, and everyone left the room, what might he then have done? Barnasha? What did he do to her?


I may have missed it, could you provide your source for this?

[watsup]

Marriage is not about copulating.

I may have missed it, could you provide your source for this?


Bukhari:V1B4N1229-33 "Aisha [who was 9] said, ‘I used to wash semen off the Prophet's [who was 53] clothes. When he went for prayers I used to notice one or more spots on them.'"

[barnasha]

Bukhari:V1B4N1229-33 "Aisha [who was 9] said, ‘I used to wash semen off the Prophet's [who was 53] clothes. When he went for prayers I used to notice one or more spots on them.'"

Aisha may have been older than 9 when she said this, and the "who was 9" and "who was 53" are your additions to the hadith.

This shameless fabrication exposes you for what you are, someone here to spread hate and lies.

Go do something useful with your life.

[Narnian]

Marriage is not about copulating.

We're not debating what mariage is "about" - you have still not answered my question. What "marriage consummation" did Muhammad do to Aisha "on the bed" while she was left "sitting on his lap" and "alone"?

I may have missed it, could you provide your source for this?

Tabari Hadith: IX:131: (Aisha narrated)

"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face .... the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

I look forward to your reply.

[barnasha]

We're not debating what mariage is "about" - you have still not answered my question. What "marriage consummation" did Muhammad do to Aisha "on the bed" while she was left "sitting on his lap" and "alone"?



Tabari Hadith: IX:131: (Aisha narrated)

"My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face .... the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."

I look forward to your reply.
What's the authenticity of this hadith? (chain of transmitters, etc)

[Narnian]

What's the authenticity of this hadith? (chain of transmitters, etc)

OK, so now that you can't find a way out of "consummate" which you thought meant "admit her to his house" you are now reverting to questioning the authenticity of the Hadith. :hehe: Do the good old "Barnasha Shuffle".

That and other Hadithes that put her age at 9 are all acceptable Hadithes. That's why in muslim countries it is not pedophilia to have sex with a 9 year old girl.

One can understand that it would be possible that the early muslims would lie to make their prophet look good, ie invent miracles for him etc, but it is highly unlikely that the early muslims would have lied to make their prophet look bad.

Muhammad was no prophet - he was a perverted dirty old man.

[barnasha]

OK, so now that you can't find a way out of "consummate" which you thought meant "admit her to his house" you are now reverting to questioning the authenticity of the Hadith. :hehe: Do the good old "Barnasha Shuffle".

That and other Hadithes that put her age at 9 are all acceptable Hadithes. That's why in muslim countries it is not pedophilia to have sex with a 9 year old girl.

One can understand that it would be possible that the early muslims would lie to make their prophet look good, ie invent miracles for him etc, but it is highly unlikely that the early muslims would have lied to make their prophet look bad.

Muhammad was no prophet - he was a perverted dirty old man.

your point is still not corroborated per my earlier objections, so i inquired off hand as to the validity of your source

....AND ... YOU... GO... BACK... TO... ATTACKING .... ME

thus is the weakness of all your arguments,

you are full of hateful words, you are really just a shallow slinger of insults, you have no real points to argue


WHY ELSE WOULD YOU ATTACK ME?

anyway,

there is no need to continue restating your opinion.

we know what you think.

go get a blog



We're not debating what mariage is "about" - you have still not answered my question. What "marriage consummation" did Muhammad do to Aisha "on the bed" while she was left "sitting on his lap" and "alone"?


Very well. This is a good point.

So more to the point, can you defend your assertion that consummation means sex?

And is this story ("hadith") something that really happened? who told it?

[Narnian]

your point is still not corroborated per my earlier objections, so i inquired off hand as to the validity of your source

You did nothing of the sort. You made a point that Muhammad did not penetrate little Aisha with his penis to "consummate" the marriage. I then asked you WHAT could he have done to make Aisha use the word "consummate" and in the context of her sitting on his lap, on a bed, and everyone leaving the room. You then used your cloaked name calling and suggested I was perverted for thinking that he had penetrated this little girl. When I asked for evidence, instead of answering my questions, you then said "Oh, but now let's question the Hadith"

....AND ... YOU... GO... BACK... TO... ATTACKING .... ME

Is your name Muhammad? Are you the last and most imporant prophet to mankind? Did I call you perverted, even though you called me perverted? :ahem:

I will continue to attack Muhammad and call him what he was; a dirty old perverted pedophile. I owe it to Aisha and to all my other little sisters who were @#$*ed by these perverts thru the ages who go by the Quran and see Muhammad's behavour as "exemplery" and "from God".

thus is the weakness of all your arguments,

You haven't even GOT an argument. The answer is staring in your face - it's called REALITY. You are following a false religion started by a psychopath who was no different than David Koresh and all the other "monotheists" who used the "followed abraham" rhetoric to deceive themselves and their followers. You, Barnasha, are being deceived.

You and Moose etc remind me of that Monty Python skit where the knight chops off the legs and arms off one of the enemy and they are still yelling out: "come back and fight you coward!" :lol:

you are full of hateful words, you are really just a shallow slinger of insults, you have no real points to argue

3 name callings in that sentence:
1. hateful
2. shallow
3. useless debator

WHY ELSE WOULD YOU ATTACK ME?

I have not attacked you even ONCE, Barnasha. I even like you! I think you are a really sweet guy, kind of a bit of a loner perhaps, hurt by circumstances with Islam, well-meaning, caring, trying to do his best, a "good" person, ethical .... that's how I see you.

go get a blog

:lol: It's called Free Speech. Something that Muhammad murdered people for.

So more to the point, can you defend your assertion that consummation means sex?

And is this story ("hadith") something that really happened? who told it?

Yes, through the logical deduction I have just given you in the previous posts. You, on the other hand, only revert to cloaked name-calling.

[watsup]

your point is still not corroborated per my earlier objections, so i inquired off hand as to the validity of your source

....AND ... YOU... GO... BACK... TO... ATTACKING .... ME

thus is the weakness of all your arguments,

you are full of hateful words, you are really just a shallow slinger of insults, you have no real points to argue

WHY ELSE WOULD YOU ATTACK ME?

anyway,

there is no need to continue restating your opinion.

we know what you think.

go get a blog

Very well. This is a good point.

So more to the point, can you defend your assertion that consummation means sex?

And is this story ("hadith") something that really happened? who told it?

Islam's top 100 Muslim scholars who wrote the "Open Letter to Pope Benedict XVI" had told watsup that "this story ('hadith') was something that really happened". No question mark about this.

You won't believe watsup?

DON'T ATTACK watsup.

ATTACK those top 100 Muslim scholars who told watsup so.

Link, for your easy reference on the top 100 Muslim scholars you should ATTACK:

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/issu...r18_lowres.pdf

ATTACK them for not having endorsed all their Sunni and Shiite approved hadiths for not having expunged their many GRAPHIC accounts, on how Islam's matured 53 year old "prophet" Mohammed was in such an eager hurry to begin his "show and tell" to just-after-her- first-evidence-of-attaining-puberty-just-matured-for-sex 9 year old Aisha - in Aisha's room, in Aisha's house, after his having shooed away all others from the room.

On how to inter-connect and operate "their instruments for marriage consummation", to ISO (Islamic Standards Organisation) standard for "marriage consummation".

What a PATHETIC WHIMP! - this trained waffling-specialist waffle of a covert Muslim ! To so shamelessly and falsely accuse gentle lady Narnian of having ATTACKED him!

As much a WHIMP as his Mohammed. His Mohammed who WHIMPISHLY bleat Quran 2:256"there is no compulsion of religion in Islam". Only to go all very macho, with his Quran 9:29 -after he had adequate support from the Medina mob, who were green as Islamic green in envy fo the Meccans.

And, therefore, the until then far-less-wealthy-than-the-Meccans Medinians's green as Islamic green hatred against the prosperous Mohammed-rejecting Meccan Christians, Jews, and other disbelievers of looney Mohammed.

[moose7237]

.

There are more than one sources that Aisha was 9. DId they all simultaneously lie? I doubt it.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

likewise, there are more than one source that proves that she was not 9 either.



the narrator was Aisha.

I would say that she is a liar. She fought against one of the Caliphs of Islam, and disobeyed the prophet by doing so. Just because she is the prophet's wife, doesn't mean she is all the great of a person.

OK, so when this "drunk" fake muslim coped down the story of Aisha's experiences, why didn't the people throw this out then? Why collect stories from a liar? Especially one who makes your prophet look like an evil paedophile.

Maybe it could be because the compiler of the hadiths wanted our prophet to look bad. It is a possibility.



Yes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So Abraham was a myth eh??? By your standards, you just proved Jesus was a myth too, meaning that he never did get crucified nor resurrected and Christianity is in vain since the resurrection never happened.

Barnasha,


No Barnasha, I am inferior to you, remember? I truly cannot think what this guy did to "consummate" his marriage to Aisha left alone in a room while sitting on the bed with her on his knee. Please could you give me some "non perverted" ideas you might have?[/QUOTE]

[Narnian]

likewise, there are more than one source that proves that she was not 9 either.

I can understand people lying that she was older, but I can't understand why those who thought this dude was a prophet would lie to make her aged 9, so that he looks like a dirty old pervert.

I would say that she is a liar. She fought against one of the Caliphs of Islam, and disobeyed the prophet by doing so. Just because she is the prophet's wife, doesn't mean she is all the great of a person.

It still doesn't sound logical. Why lie about her ex husband just to make him look like a pedophile? That's crazy.

Maybe it could be because the compiler of the hadiths wanted our prophet to look bad. It is a possibility.

Sorry, I can't buy that one.

So Abraham was a myth eh??? By your standards, you just proved Jesus was a myth too, meaning that he never did get crucified nor resurrected and Christianity is in vain since the resurrection never happened.

How Moose? I don't understand your reasoning. Jesus was NOT a myth!

[barnasha]

I can understand people lying that she was older, but I can't understand why those who thought this dude was a prophet would lie to make her aged 9, so that he looks like a dirty old pervert.



It still doesn't sound logical. Why lie about her ex husband just to make him look like a pedophile? That's crazy.


(1) if marrying 9 year olds was considered 'pedophilia', then you would be arguing that most of the people from that region, including Jews and Christians, were pedophiles.

Or are you simply arguing that Muhammad was of bad character, and trying to find any way you can, including pre-fabricated arguments about how he is a 'pedophile', because they fit your agenda?


(2) "pedophiles" are usually people who prey on children sexually , not marry them and take them into their family, after asking their parent's (in this case his best friend and closest companion) permission.

(3) If this person was indeed a pedophile, why wouldn't there have been record of people accusing him of that? none of his enemies ever accused him of that, because in that part of the world at thta time, he was not doing anything ot of the norm, in terms of who he married.

I know the hate literature you get your ideas from won't cover this, so go look elsewhere for the first accusations like the one you are using now - notice how it never showed up amongst his enemies until the last century or two.


why is that?

[Narnian]

if marrying 9 year olds was considered 'pedophilia', then you would be arguing that most of the people from that region, including Jews and Christians, were pedophiles.

Yes, there are many jews and christians who are/were pedophiles, and we call them "pedophiles" not "prophets". God does not send the Jews and Christians a "last and most important prophet" who is an "exempler" in character and behaviour for "all mankind" for "always" who behaved in this way. Allah should have thought about this before sending Muhammad a dream of her "wrapped in silk" being "brought before him" as the Hadith goes. It's sick!

Or are you simply arguing that Muhammad was of bad character, and trying to find any way you can, including pre-fabricated arguments about how he is a 'pedophile', because they fit your agenda?

It is recorded that he was a pedophile, by those who knew him, and by his victim herself.

(2) "pedophiles" are usually people who prey on children sexually , not marry them and take them into their family, after asking their parent's (in this case his best friend and closest companion) permission.

You're as bad as Monasjazz at the FFI forum - his claim is that "Muhammad had a solution for pedophilia - you marry the child" ..... voila! No more pedophilia! :ahem:

Sorry, but pedophilia is not "unmarried sex with a child" but simply "sex with a child".

It's disgusting and criminal!

(3) If this person was indeed a pedophile, why wouldn't there have been record of people accusing him of that? none of his enemies ever accused him of that, because in that part of the world at thta time, he was not doing anything ot of the norm, in terms of who he married.

Because the people of 7th century Saudi Arabia believed him when he said he was a prophet who had Allah's blessing to do these things. They were backward, superstitious, frightened and uneducated people. They had mentalities like children. But if Allah knew this religion was for all time, why did he send a dream of Aisha wrapped up in silk to pervert Muhammad? Allah should have known better.

I know the hate literature you get your ideas from won't cover this, so go look elsewhere for the first accusations like the one you are using now - notice how it never showed up amongst his enemies until the last century or two.

The "hate literature" are your scriptures.

You have been greatly deceived. :noid:

[rogue06]

...(2) "pedophiles" are usually people who prey on children sexually , not marry them and take them into their family, after asking their parent's (in this case his best friend and closest companion) permission.

It is not uncommon for pedophiles to be "in love" with their victims

As for the claim Mohammed was a pedophile I thought that was a common charge amongst Christians of the Middle Ages, which is longer ago than the last century or two. Further, the practice of very young girls being married off isn't just somethng that was done in the past in the Mid East. The Ayatollah Khomeini declared that it is best if a young girl has her first "menstration at her husband's house rather than in her father's home." Islam still defends the practice of child rape brides precisely because their prophet did it.

[barnasha]

It is not uncommon for pedophiles to be "in love" with their victims

As for the claim Mohammed was a pedophile I thought that was a common charge amongst Christians of the Middle Ages, which is longer ago than the last century or two. Further, the practice of very young girls being married off isn't just somethng that was done in the past in the Mid East. The Ayatollah Khomeini declared that it is best if a young girl has her first "menstration at her husband's house rather than in her father's home." Islam still defends the practice of child rape brides precisely because their prophet did it.

Your statements all seem to be emotionally charged rather than from a rational, logical point of view.

I do not see you having addressed anything I said.

[watsup]

Your statements all seem to be emotionally charged rather than from a rational, logical point of view.

I do not see you having addressed anything I said.

Trained waffling-specialist waffle.

Question #1: Do you think your then 53 year old Mohammed was rather " emotional charged", when he cleared the guests from the room who had gathered there to see for themselves whether he would be handling 9 year old Aisha whom he had (in a emotionally charged? or in a rational, logical? manner) lifted up and lowered to straddle across his lap, in an emotionally charged or rational and logical manner?

Question #2: Do you think you would be able to provide a (be it, in an emotionally charge or a rational logical manner) satisfactory answer to Question #1?

Question #3. Have you provided your (be it ,emotionally charged or non-emotionally charged) answer to Narnian's rational and logical point of view - that, you should (be it, in an emotionally or non-emotionally charged manner) describe how your then 53 year old Mohammed consummated his marriage with the then 9 year old Aisha whom he lifted up and had her to sit straddling across your lap? (That you said that consummation of marraige does not necessarily involve any sex act between the two parties consummating their marriage.)

[Narnian]

Your statements all seem to be emotionally charged rather than from a rational, logical point of view.

Rogue made some valid points. Let me summarize:

Fact 1. People have known for a long time that Muhammad was a pedophile
Fact 2. Khomeini is an example of how Muhammad's legacy continues to play out in modern times, since he is considered the ultimate role model for all mankind.

Facts.

That you get emotional over it, doesn't mean that what he said was "emotional".

[barnasha]

Rogue made some valid points. Let me summarize:

Fact 1. People have known for a long time that Muhammad was a pedophile


Which people?

(Surely you must admit that this "fact" is an "argumentum ad populum")

On what factual basis do you carry this opinion?

I am surprised the best that you can do, to try to counter my points, is to state an opinion, without any factual basis. You did not address any of my points directly.

Actually, I misspoke. I am not surprised.


Fact 2. Khomeini is an example of how Muhammad's legacy continues to play out in modern times, since he is considered the ultimate role model for all mankind.


That is an opinion, not a fact.

In grade school we learned what facts and opinions are, and how to determine what is fact versus what is opinion. I could have just as easily then as I do now point out the obvious.



Facts.

That you get emotional over it, doesn't mean that what he said was "emotional".

How do you suppose I am getting emotional?

[watsup]

Which people?

(Surely you must admit that this "fact" is an "argumentum ad populum")

On what factual basis do you carry this opinion?

I am surprised the best that you can do, to try to counter my points, is to state an opinion, without any factual basis. You did not address any of my points directly.

Actually, I misspoke. I am not surprised.

That is an opinion, not a fact.

In grade school we learned what facts and opinions are, and how to determine what is fact versus what is opinion. I could have just as easily then as I do now point out the obvious.

How do you suppose I am getting emotional?

Yah. In your madrassah grade school.

[Narnian]

Barnasha,
The legal age of penetration of a child in Iran - and probably most other Islamic countries - is aged 9. This is based on Muhammad's "exemplery" behaviour and "standard" for all mankind, as the Quran states. This is a fact. I have also seen evidence where he wrote about how to "thigh" children to get your jollies if the guy can't get his penis into the child. I'm sure you find that disgusting and criminal as I do. But it's a "fact".

[barnasha]

Yah. In your madrassah grade school.

What does that mean?

The legal age of penetration of a child in Iran - and probably most other Islamic countries - is aged 9. This is based on Muhammad's "exemplery" behaviour and "standard" for all mankind, as the Quran states. This is a fact.


Exemplary behavior, like requiring MARRIAGE and PARENTAL CONSENT for sex? How evil!!!!!




Let's take a look at the age of sexual consent in some "Islamic countries" (your term) versus some "non Islamic countries", based on what I think you mean when you say "Islamic country", which is that a large number of the population is an adherent of the Islamic faith:


*** "Islamic countries"

* In Indonesia, where 90% of the population is muslim, the age of sexual consent is 18.

* In Pakistan, the age of consent for women is 16.

* India, which has the 3rd largest muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan, has a sexual consent age of 18.

* In Saudi Arabia, which has an "Islamic" government, the rules are similar to Iran, you have to be married to have sex, and marriage requires parent's permission. (Islamic custom, dictated by the Quran).

Apparently you don't agree with the Quran, which says that parents have to approve, and there has to be a MARRIAGE, i.e. bond for life, before sex takes place?


* In Malaysia, over half the population is muslim. there the age of consent is 16.

* In Iran, marriage contracted before puberty is invalid unless authorized by natural guardian with ward's best interests in mind. When authorized before puberty, minimum age is nine. (source: emory university law website, emory.edu)

So marriage of young women is required before they have sex.

(Are you saying that Iranian women willingly give their girls out to be SEXUALLY USED, to random men? If you are a mother, then surely you know that women do not give their little girls out to be molested, muslim or christian or atheist.)



*** "Non-islamic countries"

Here are just some non-"Islamic" countries:

* Japan's age of sexual consent is 13, though it has laws regarding immoral acts with minors

* Phillipines -12 percent, with some laws regarding the treatment of those under 18. (Only 5% of filipinos are muslim)

* Spain - 13

* Slovenia - 15

* Poland - 15

* Austria - 13 or 14, depending




Remember that for muslims, sex has to happen within marriage.

The above "non Islamic" countries do not require a marriage for sex!

If Spain or Japan were predominantly muslim, you would surely be all over them for allowing young children to have sex.

( Remember, they don't require parental consent like those evil Iranians do! )

But since they are not muslim countries, it's ok with you, right?

[Narnian]

Exemplary behavior, like requiring MARRIAGE and PARENTAL CONSENT for sex? How evil!!!!!

So Barnasha, are you saying that sex with 9 year olds is ok if they are married to the man?

Does marriage make pedophilia NOT pedophilia?

[Narnian]

Supreme Leader Khomeini's view:

"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is
still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having
intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual acts such as
foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed. A man having intercourse with a
girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an
infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however,
is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this
girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is
not permitted to marry the girl's sister."[34][35]

Khomeini specifically described an act known as thighing that allowed an
adult male to simulate sex with a female child without penetration:

"Thighing is a means for an adult male to enjoy a young girl who is still
in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and
to kiss her."[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children

Narrated 'Aisha:
"I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Bukhari 8.151)."

Isn't it obvious that someone whose pursues the activity of 'playing with dolls' in front of her husband is a child? She was also playing on a swing with her friends when she was coralled away to be decorated and presented to him in marriage. And also he didn't take her home that day as it was inappropriate .. because she was a child


Thanks Muhammad for your exemplery behaviour and role model.

[barnasha]

So Barnasha, are you saying that sex with 9 year olds is ok if they are married to the man?


No.


Does marriage make pedophilia NOT pedophilia?

What is the measure of being a child or not being a child?

When someone reaches puberty, or when an arbitrary societal custom declares it?

If the latter, which society's customs from which time and place are to be used?

If a woman is 9 years old, and has reached puberty, is she still a child?

By today's society's standards, Western or Eastern, most women are not "mature" mentally until their late teens or even their twenties. As far as where "child" and "adult" begin and end, it depends on which country and place you live, and in what time.



Is marriage about sex to you?

Jewish law says girls can be married off at 12.

So, are you going to add Jews to your hate list anytime soon?

...or is 12 years old OK for you?

[Bigmo]

I can understand people lying that she was older, but I can't understand why those who thought this dude was a prophet would lie to make her aged 9, so that he looks like a dirty old pervert.



It still doesn't sound logical. Why lie about her ex husband just to make him look like a pedophile? That's crazy.



Sorry, I can't buy that one.



How Moose? I don't understand your reasoning. Jesus was NOT a myth!

We don't know if she even said it. Anyways none of those things are mentioned in the Koran. Arabs talk and gossip all the time. Some tribe who had a tradition of marrying young girls would find by invoking the prophet they would give authority to these kind of marriages. Just like stoning adulterers and so on. Its not in the Koran but perhaps the Ummayids picked it up from the Jews or the Byzantines and later own it made its way to the hadiths. Remeber these narrations were compiled more than 200 years after the prophet. Therr are no early written documents to verify them. The Sunni/Shia clerics would tell you this is because they were banned from writing it down so an not to confuse them with the Koran. But in reality they were not written down earlier because they never existed earlier. Its a way to justify their non existence.

Aisha was from the Ummayids, and thus it would have been beneficial to the Umaayids during their dynast that lasted about 90-100 years to invoke her name and raise her profile.

[barnasha]

We don't know if she even said it. Anyways none of those things are mentioned in the Koran.

These same people bend over backwards to deny the authenticity of the Quran. Yet when the random story ("hadith") floats by that happens to have certain people's names in it, they act as if it is indisputable historical proof, should it serve their interests.

How's that for irony?

[Narnian]

Barnasha, "Denial" is not a river in Eygpt.

In case you missed here it is again:

"Thighing is a means for an adult male to enjoy a young girl who is still
in the age of weaning; meaning to place his penis between her thighs, and
to kiss her."[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_children

Narrated 'Aisha:
"I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Bukhari 8.151)."

Isn't it obvious that someone whose pursues the activity of 'playing with dolls' in front of her husband is a child? She was also playing on a swing with her friends when she was coralled away to be decorated and presented to him in marriage. And also he didn't take her home that day as it was inappropriate .. because she was a child


Thanks Muhammad for your exemplery behaviour and role model.

[moose7237]

I can understand people lying that she was older, but I can't understand why those who thought this dude was a prophet would lie to make her aged 9, so that he looks like a dirty old pervert.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Maybe its because some people did not like the prophet and wanted to make up lies about him. It happened plenty of times, and the prophet himself stated that there will be people after he dies that will say things claiming that it came from him(the prophet).



It still doesn't sound logical. Why lie about her ex husband just to make him look like a pedophile? That's crazy.

No its not crazy if you don't obey your husband and don't love him. Aisha disobeyed the prophet especially by having a war against the Muslims. This woman had a war with Muhammad's family member Ali ibn Abi Talib, you think she wouldn't make up lies about the husband she disobeyed by creating a war with his believers???



Sorry, I can't buy that one.

Why not??? You can obviously buy that the OT was the word of man and not inspired nor dictated by God at all, and that all those prophets and events never actually happened, why is it so hard to believe that the compliers of Sahih Bukhari, and the other Sahihs are not purposeful fabrications to make the prophet look bad?



How Moose? I don't understand your reasoning. Jesus was NOT a myth!

Oh yes he was a myth!!! You claim that Abraham was a myth. Well lets read Matthew 1:

1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.[b]

Uh oh! It looks like Jesus came from the line of Abraham, but according to you Abraham was a myth, so how can a real person come from the line of a mythical one??? That must mean if Abraham and his line are a myth so is Jesus as well. Are you going to declare the NT a bunch of lies and myths as well now Narnian???

[Narnian]

Oh yes he was a myth!!! You claim that Abraham was a myth. Well lets read Matthew 1:

Moose, so as not to deflect attention on the Aisha issue, I have started a thread on this subject here;

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2093494#post2093494

You are most welcome to come there and challenge me. I will take your rebuttal over there. :teeth:

[barnasha]

Barnasha, "Denial" is not a river in Eygpt.

In case you missed here it is again:



it is you who missed my post:

What is the measure of being a child or not being a child?
When someone reaches puberty, or when an arbitrary societal custom declares it?
If the latter, which society's customs from which time and place are to be used?
If a woman is 9 years old, and has reached puberty, is she still a child?

By today's society's standards, Western or Eastern, most women are not "mature" mentally until their late teens or even their twenties. As far as where "child" and "adult" begin and end, it depends on which country and place you live, and in what time.



Is marriage about sex to you?
Jewish law says girls can be married off at 12.
So, are you going to add Jews to your hate list anytime soon?
...or is 12 years old OK for you?

[Narnian]

You are using the "it was right for the time" argument. But, as I have already shown you, Muhammad's behaviour, deeds, character and teachings are for "all people" and for "all time". Muhammad was also the "last and most important prophet". Jewish prophets were not. Jews are still waiting for the "last and most important prophet".

Allah should have known better.

[barnasha]

You are using the "it was right for the time" argument. But, as I have already shown you, Muhammad's behaviour, deeds, character and teachings are for "all people" and for "all time". Muhammad was also the "last and most important prophet". Jewish prophets were not. Jews are still waiting for the "last and most important prophet".

Allah should have known better.

So might I assume based on your lack of response to my earlier questions, that you consider it allowable if a 12 year old is married off if she's Jewish, but if she is a Muslim, then her husband is a pedophile?

Or do you post hate speech about Moses to Judaism boards too?

[Narnian]

So might I assume based on your lack of response to my earlier questions, that you consider it allowable if a 12 year old is married off if she's Jewish, but if she is a Muslim, then her husband is a pedophile?

I have answered you about 3 times now.

Or do you post hate speech about Moses to Judaism boards too?

It's criminal for ANYONE to have sex with a child. But for the "last and most important prophet" to get his jollies from a child's vagina is outrageous. You have been deceived by this religion.

[barnasha]

I have answered you about 3 times now.



It's criminal for ANYONE to have sex with a child. But for the "last and most important prophet" to get his jollies from a child's vagina is outrageous. You have been deceived by this religion.

I am very pleased with this conversation because it exposes your hateful maligning of Islam and the prophet Muhammad and your hypocrisy.

Your religion comes from the teachings of a Jew whose religion allowed 12 year olds to be married (and thus have sexual relationships with her husband).

Why didn't Jesus protect the poor children from this so called "pedophilia"?

How do you consider it "pedophilia" when the accused is marrying the so-called "child"?

I have already pointed out other reasons why marriage at a young age is not pedophilia, and you have not addressed those.

Any continued claims that Muhammad is evil will simply be seen as you repeating your opinion and over and over and avoiding, nay ignoring, any valid points which marginalize everything you have said.

Stop being a bigot towards Islam and spreading hate speech on this forum

[Narnian]

First you try to deny "consummation" means sex. That was debunked. Then you try to say consummation means "admit to Mo's house" - debunked again. Next you try questioning the Hadith. That didnt' work. Then you tried a bit of Tu Quoque and desperately attempted to match Jesus with Muhammad. That one fell flat on its face. Lastly, you resort to good ol' name calling and Ad Hominen, finishing off with a bit of "argumentum ad verbosium" for emphasis.

None of this has convinced anyone that Muhammad was not a criminal pedophile who got his jollies from a child, and who should have been locked up in prison, rather than a "last and most important prophet" and a "role model for all mankind". :brood: I don't give a damn about this criminal's feelings, nor about your nostalgic attachment to this crim - I care about Aisha and all my other sisters and daughters who have been %$!%ed by these creeps because of this legacy.

You, Barny, are caught in the middle. You believe in goodness and ethics, so why defend this disgusting criminal and call him your prophet!!?

[barnasha]

First you try to deny "consummation" means sex. That was debunked. Then you try to say consummation means "admit to Mo's house" - debunked again.

I disagree

Next you try questioning the Hadith. That didnt' work.

asking for information regarding your source should have been in your interest, of making your point.

you passed that up though

Then you tried a bit of Tu Quoque and desperately attempted to match Jesus with Muhammad. That one fell flat on its face.

No I didn't

Lastly, you resort to good ol' name calling and Ad Hominen, finishing off with a bit of "argumentum ad verbosium" for emphasis.

That's not true


None of this has convinced anyone that Muhammad was not a criminal pedophile who got his jollies from a child, and who should have been locked up in prison, rather than a "last and most important prophet" and a "role model for all mankind". :brood: I don't give a damn about this criminal's feelings, nor about your nostalgic attachment to this crim - I care about Aisha and all my other sisters and daughters who have been %$!%ed by these creeps because of this legacy.

You, Barny, are caught in the middle. You believe in goodness and ethics, so why defend this disgusting criminal and call him your prophet!!?


repeating your stance and asserting that my objections are unwarranted, without actually showing how, really leave you in a weaker position as far as any argument is concerned.

I know you are trying to save face now that your hate for Islam and your hypocrisy have been exposed. So I will leave you be, thrashing away at me and all the ways I showed your arguments to be frivolous and contrived.

until you wish to actually address my comments, rather than asserting they are "debunked", I suppose you have considered this conversation to come to an end.

May I also respectfully point out that my name is not "Barney"?

[moose7237]

Moose, so as not to deflect attention on the Aisha issue, I have started a thread on this subject here;

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2093494#post2093494

You are most welcome to come there and challenge me. I will take your rebuttal over there. :teeth:


Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Firstly, if you have started a thread there, why are you talking about Aisha here??? Next, please at least answer my claim that according to your logic, Jesus is a myth. Take care!

[watsup]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Firstly, if you have started a thread there, why are you talking about Aisha here??? Next, please at least answer my claim that according to your logic, Jesus is a myth. Take care!

Get real my friend, moose.

Q#1:Jesus - which counterfeit-Allah Islam's allah tries to fabricate, with his counterfeit-Jesus "Isa (PBUH)" - is a myth?

Q#2. The US dollar - which Tehran and Pyongyang would counterfeit after - is a myth?

Q#3.Counterfeiters would counterfeit after myths? Who taught you that? Where did you learn that from?

Q#4. What then is Islam - to come out with "Isa (PBUH" its version of Bible's Jesus, Son of God, God whom you have been instructed by your Islam's high officials to declare to be a myth?

moose. Be serious. Be not wilfully "wisdom-severly-challenged", yah. If you want me to continue to treat you with "respect and dignity".

Starting by giving your serious answers to the above serious questions.

Waiting. Waiting.

[Narnian]

Firstly, if you have started a thread there, why are you talking about Aisha here???

Um, because this thread is called "Aisha and Islam"? :uhoh:

Next, please at least answer my claim that according to your logic, Jesus is a myth. Take care!

I have answered you at that thread.

See you there.

[Narnian]

repeating your stance and asserting that my objections are unwarranted, without actually showing how, really leave you in a weaker position as far as any argument is concerned.

that's exactly what you do.

I know you are trying to save face now that your hate for Islam and your hypocrisy have been exposed.

Save face over what? I've already said many times that I hate Islam. I hate Islam because I love humanity. If you love Islam, yet also claim to love humanity ... then who's the hypocrite? :eh:

So I will leave you be, thrashing away at me and all the ways I showed your arguments to be frivolous and contrived.

the only person "thrashing" away at a tweb member is YOURSELF. The thread is titled: "Aisha and Islam". What has this got to do with my personal character flaws? Nothing.

until you wish to actually address my comments, rather than asserting they are "debunked", I suppose you have considered this conversation to come to an end.

Until you actually address my comments, rather than asserting than using name calling, then this converstation is at an end.

[barnasha]

Why do you approve of Jews marrying off 12 year old girls, but if they are muslims, you call them immoral?

[Narnian]

Why do you approve of Jews marrying off 12 year old girls, but if they are muslims, you call them immoral?

Wow, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now! :uhoh: Show me this moral equivalence attempt of yours - where I allegedly approved of the Jewish "last and most important prophet" and "role model to all mankind" having sex with 12 year olds. :ahem:

[barnasha]

Wow, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel now! :uhoh: Show me this moral equivalence attempt of yours - where I allegedly approved of the Jewish "last and most important prophet" and "role model to all mankind" having sex with 12 year olds. :ahem:

I'm a nice guy, I'll loosen your trap.

[watsup]

I'm a nice guy, I'll loosen your trap.

............. of a covert Muslim barnacle.

What did YOUR then 53 (FIFTY-THREE) year OLD (ISLAM'S PROPHET) Mohammed hurriedly LOOSEN for young 9 (NINE) year old YOUNG NUBILE Aisha perched on his thighs that night - after he had HURRIEDLY cleared the guests who were in the chambers waiting for him to give a MASTERCLASS demonstration of ISLAM'S ISO* (*Islamic Standards Organisation) "way of HURRIED consummation of marriage", in Aisha's room in Aisha's house?