Identity of the Great Whore of Babylon

[Pythagoras]

Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

[furay]

My guess? Protestant Christianity; they're so eager to point a finger at the Roman Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon... perhaps they are really trying to divert attention away from themselves. :wink: Tee-hee, just kidding... then again, you never know do ya? :teeth:

[Constantine]

Isn't it obvious?

Paris Hilton

[Pythagoras]

Well, I think the Bible gives us many clues. Let's adopt an investigative approach like Sherlock Holmes would have, in analyzing her .

First, the woman's location.

(1)The Bible says "The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits."
(2) She is also referred to as Babylon.

Question:

Is there a connection betwen (1) and (2) as described in the Revelation? I think so.

.It is significant that Rome began as a network of seven hill settlements on the left bank of the Tiber. Her designation as the city of seven hills is commonplace among Roman writers(eg. Virgil, Martial, Cicero).

. As for Babylon, it is a well known fact that this word is code for Rome in the NT.( I can elaborate for the novices, but in another post).

So can we begin by asserting this woman to probably be located in Rome? Any objections? Comments?


God Bless,

[Rusty T]

Sherlock Holmes would have smoked opium before beginning his investigation. Got a pipe?

rusty

[Pythagoras]

Sherlock Holmes would have smoked opium before beginning his investigation. Got a pipe?

rustyIndeed. I have one in stock(but it's opium free); perhaps should light up.

[Rusty T]

I listened to Nancy Reagon. I don't do drugs.

[Pythagoras]

Actually the following should have been my very first querry ... but it doesn't make much difference..

Question:

The Woman of Rev. 17, is she a literal woman? If not who or what is she?

Well, the Book of Rev. says "the woman... is that great city."... So she is a city, or a City-State, not a literal woman!

But the Rev. also calls her a Whore. Hmmm.. Why would a city be called a whore and be accused of having committed fornication with kings?. Such as indictment would never be made of London or Moscow or Paris -- or any ordinary city. It woudn't make sense.


Fornication and adultery are used in the Bible in both the physical and the spiritual sense. Of Jerusalem God said, "How is the faithful city become a harlot!" (Isaiah 1:21) Israel, whom God had set apart from all other peoples to be holy for his purposes, has entered into unholy, adulterous alliances with the idol- worshipping nations about her. She had "committed adultery with stones and with stocks[idols]"(Jeremiah 3:9); "and with their idols have they committed adultery"(Ezekiel 23:37)

So there is no way a city could engage in literal, fleshly fornication. Thus we can conclude that John, like the prophets of the OT, is using the term in its spiritual sense. The city, therefore, must claim a spiritual relationship with God. Otherwise such an allegation would be meaningless.


Agreed so far?

[Jude3b]

Actually the following should have been my very first querry ... but it doesn't make much difference..

Question:

The Woman of Rev. 17, is she a literal woman? If not who or what is she?

Well, the Book of Rev. says "the woman... is that great city."... So she is a city, or a City-State, not a literal woman!

But the Rev. also calls her a Whore. Hmmm.. Why would a city be called a whore and be accused of having committed fornication with kings?. Such as indictment would never be made of London or Moscow or Paris -- or any ordinary city. It woudn't make sense.


Fornication and adultery are used in the Bible in both the physical and the spiritual sense. Of Jerusalem God said, "How is the faithful city become a harlot!" (Isaiah 1:21) Israel, whom God had set apart from all other peoples to be holy for his purposes, has entered into unholy, adulterous alliances with the idol- worshipping nations about her. She had "committed adultery with stones and with stocks[idols]"(Jeremiah 3:9); "and with their idols have they committed adultery"(Ezekiel 23:37)

So there is no way a city could engage in literal, fleshly fornication. Thus we can conclude that John, like the prophets of the OT, is using the term in its spiritual sense. The city, therefore, must claim a spiritual relationship with God. Otherwise such an allegation would be meaningless.


Agreed so far?

Rome and Roman Catholicism got married in 312 A.D. -
This Roman Church is a fornicator in the sense that she left her first love (God) and got married to Paganism.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Pythagoras]Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


I believe Christianity is the great whore. The description fits it like a glove. Christianity has influenced all the kings of the earth, and is more powerful than Catholocism. That is the great mystery. The whore is christianity with its preverse doctrines.

[Pythagoras]

Hi mickiel,



[QUOTE=Pythagoras]Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


I believe Christianity is the great whore. The description fits it like a glove. Christianity has influenced all the kings of the earth, and is more powerful than Catholocism. That is the great mystery. The whore is christianity with its preverse doctrines.A novel idea, --- but unfesible for the following few reasons,among many others....(Let me put my Sherlock Holmes hat on.)

(1)John says this woman is concentrated in Rome, but Christianity as a whole is not , unless ofcourse by Christian you mean the Catholic Church in particular because only the Catholic Church is headquartered in Rome... Hmmmm.
Most of the rest of Christianity is structured no where near the City of Seven Hills , unfortunately for you, and does not accept the authority of the Pope. As an example, Evangelicals live mainly in the Bible Belt, in the good ol USA .

(2)If ALL of Christianity is the Great Whore of Babylon(including Catholicism), then John's Revelation is redundant because there would be no believers left to harken the words of his prophecy. Remember His words in Rev. 1:2 presupposes that there would be true Christians in the world to read and hear the Revelation.

(3)It is also not true that Christianity(by that I suppose you mean non-Catholics) is more powerful than Catholicism, not by a long shot.

So logically we must reject your claim that Christianity is the Great Whore of Babylon because the description does not fit it like a glove; unless ofcourse by Christianity you mean Catholicism in particular, but that would require further exploration, woudn't it?.

[Constantine]

Unless we are in the imediate endtimes isn't looking for the Whore of Babylon a bit pre-mature?

Before the Catholic Bashing gets beyond insinuating I think it fair that you look at this first: http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

(for the record I still think it is Paris Hilton)

[furay]

Well, if the Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon, I guess that would make the Protestant Church the illegitimate b@stard-child of said Whore. :poke:

[Pythagoras]

Hi ,

Unless we are in the imediate endtimes isn't looking for the Whore of Babylon a bit pre-mature?

Before the Catholic Bashing gets beyond insinuating I think it fair that you look at this first: http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp

(for the record I still think it is Paris Hilton)
Good question.... Wait a second, my Sherlock Holmes hat(!), ..found it. Let's proceed.

Where was I? Oh yes,.. the expression Mystery Babylon The Great(Rev. 17:5), that I believe is the key phrase suggesting this Mother of Harlots(Rev. 17:5) to be a long enduring entity, spanning centuries.

Remember at Babel God scattered mankind and confounded their language so they coudn't communicate their evil designs to each other. On Mars Hill in Athens Paul declared that God spearated races and nations so they could concentrate upon seeking Him(Acts 17:26, 27). But over the centuries, humanity has been unsuccessfully trying to create this the Babel effect ( as I term it) . For example, the he consensus of opinion today is that we need to unify, we need unity; we need one world religion, one Catholic or Universal faith; the Babel effect.

John's vision indicates that Babel/Babylon will be very much alive in the last days. Emblazoned across the forehead of the woman riding the beast are the words "MYSTERY, BABYLON." That she represents revived paganism is clear.

Most interesting of all is the fact that she embodies paganized Christianity of old. She isn't young. She's a very experienced Madam. hardly new to the game. She's got tradition, custom, and more. This woman represents a long established world wide religious system which is based in Rome and claims to be Christian but which has it's roots in Babel in Babylon of long ago. She never severed those roots.

The city and tower of Babel long ago set the pattern for the Mother of Harlots in Rome which has continued for thousands of years and was exemplified both in pagan Rome and in 'Christian' Rome following Constantine's 'conversion.'

[furay]

Ok, then. So now that we've "identified" the Whore of Babylon with some 'clever' sleuthing, would you mind perhaps informing me on what represents the "real" Christian Church?

[Pythagoras]

Hi,

Well, if the Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon, I guess that would make the Protestant Church the illegitimate b@stard-child of said Whore. :poke:
Good argument....

But we must entertain the possibility that the Protestant Church(the bastard child) is forgiven of God because this church extracted itself from the Catholic entity; if indeed as we suppose, the Catholic Church be the Great Whore of Babylon.

Let me explain. In Chapter 18 an angel counsels people to come out of the Whore of Babylon(presumably the Catholic church). And those who leave her will not share in her plagues.

Rev. 18:4




So if the Catholic Church indeed be the Whore of Babylon, the Protestant Church(the illegitimate bastard child, as you term it ) is forgiven because he come out of her long ago .. .

[Pythagoras]

Hi,

Ok, then. So now that we've "identified" the Whore of Babylon with some 'clever' sleuthing, would you mind perhaps informing me on what represents the "real" Christian Church?
Now that's a far more tricky problem. But I think I have a clue. Rev. 18:4 gives an inkling, me thinks.

. Maybe the true Church is all those God fearing Christians from any denomination,whether Catholic or non-Catholic, who truly worship God. You see, the Church is not an human institution but a body of people who sincerely, truly put their faith in Jesus. So logically they can be found in ANY human institution; even in the Great Whore. But Revelation specifically asks them to come out of her. So they must depart her expeditiously, otherwise might be hopelessly snared by her pomps and insane ideas, and be lost foreever.

[Preacherman]

AMEN...and if you look at history.."""secular"""...and """ecclesiastical"""...(meaningless words i know...)

you will see the daughter acting just like her mother...and persecuting the true "church"


....come out of her my people...

[Preacherman]

would someone...for the sake of clarity pleeeeeeeeeze define "christian"???

it seems to me, reading thru most of the forums here, that very few, and i do mean very few of the people here are...

as for the whore...well, i do believe it is the roman...hmmm, or should i say babylonian...religion.....

but more generally, the term sure could apply to all the "so-called' "christians' thru the years, who also persecuted the true church...

it would not take a very indepth study of history to see that there is a remnant of faithful followers of Jesus...and they have been persecuted by both the "catholic" and "protestant" 'church....as well as the pagans...

like Jesus said..."you shall know them by their fruits"...

[Pythagoras]

Hi Preacherman,

How are you? Wait a second, let me put on my Holme's hat.There you go.



would someone...for the sake of clarity pleeeeeeeeeze define "christian"???
Christian is simply anyone who sincerely puts their faith in Jesus as Lord and Messiah.

Now many people claim to do the above, even the Pope in Rome for instance, so ultimately only God knows who a real Christian is. But holmes says he has no doubt there are true,real, sincere christians in the Catholic Church(but they need to come out of her) just as there are true Christians(and fake ones!) in the Protestant Church. It’s like the parable of the Wheat and Tares. Only at the end of the age will both be sifted and then we will know the true believers from the phoney ones.



It’s not our job to judge individual believers while on Earth. We may judge human institutions like the catholic Church however.



it seems to me, reading thru most of the forums here, that very few, and i do mean very few of the people here are...
How do you know? Don’t judge another person's(Jesus's) servant.



as for the whore...well, i do believe it is the roman...hmmm, or should i say babylonian...religion.....
Yes. And it’s headquartered in Rome, not Babylon. And she’s very wealthy.



but more generally, the term sure could apply to all the "so-called' "christians' thru the years, who also persecuted the true church...
No it couldn’t be applied to all the christians through the ages. Because all Christian denominations have not been headquartered in Rome. As far as I can tell, only one very significant Christian institution is located permanently in Rome..




</P>

like Jesus said..."you shall know them by their fruits </P>

I second that opinion.</P>

[Pythagoras]

AMEN...and if you look at history.."""secular"""...and """ecclesiastical"""...(meaningless words i know...)

you will see the daughter acting just like her mother...and persecuting the true "church"


....come out of her my people...Very, very interesting...

Is the daughter the Protestant Church? If so the analogy is not completely accurate, since Protestant Church came out(just as the bible expects ),i.e. left mum in disgust long ago, disowned her very own promiscious mum. It took lots of courage ; 'ex-daughter who found purity and faithfullness' (for a while at least) would be a more fitting term to describe the Protestant Church, Sherlock thinks... But wait a second, what if daughter no longer wants to be chaste,wants to return to Mother ,wants to have fun with the kings of the Earth,wants to share in her mum's power and glory, then she's reinstalled as legitimate daughter isn't she? Wow! ...Holmes is excited.

The Anglican leadership is already half way back to the Madam. What if the leaders of the Protestant Churchse follow suite? Oh my! Then the Saints would truly be under pressure woudn't they?


But one thing seems certain to Holmes, the Church sitting in Rome is the MOTHER of Harlots, considering all the evidence. And if the Protestant leadership from around the World in general decides to go back to her(God forbid), the Protestant Church would become a young Harlot, woudn't it? Yet Holmes, and even Watson, doesn't see that happening any time soon, not under the present circumstances at least. But never say never! -- just look at the Anglican leadership I mentioned earlier, their boss wants to return to the 'Good Shepherd'(aka the Pope) and 'ask forgiveness'!

Oh my.......... The poor, poor Saints. God will keep them no doubt.

[Rusty T]

Someone's been hanging out with Dave Hunt again.

rusty

[Pythagoras]

Someone's been hanging out with Dave Hunt again.

rustyHolmes likes Hunt's analysis; quite elementary in it's approach, very powerful,thorough, compelling. But he also keeps in touch with other distinguished fellows, from past and present; Alexander Hislop, Miller, Sparry, Gavin, Edgar, Zwingli, Burgees, Poole Beza, Van Dyke, Nevins, Philpot, Gill ....et al.


All fine gentlemen, with great integrity, and an insatiable thirst for knowledge and truth..

[Rusty T]

I wonder if they, like Holmes, liked to puff on the opium once-in-a-while? Maybe it's another common thread.

rusty

[Pythagoras]

Tizzidale:I wonder if they, like Holmes, liked to puff on the opium once-in-a-while? Maybe it's another common thread.

Sherlock( carefully loading the briar,getting ready for the ritual of pipe) : Now , now dear fella. Let's dissect your claim, shall we? Consider two men in this regard,quite unlike each other ; Adloph Hitler(bloodthirsty dictator) and Albert Einstein(peace-loving scientific genius).

Richard klein,a long associate , in one of his fascinating books says, "Hitler was a fanatically superstitious hater of tobacco smoke."

Einstein, on the other hand , I hear was very passionate about pipe smoking. During one lecture, he ran out of pipe tobacco and borrowed some from his students, "Gentlemen, I believe we've made a great discovery!" He later decided his conclusion was premature.
In 1950 (I think it was) he said, "I believe pipe smoking contributes to a somewhat calm and objective judgment in all human affairs."

And I certainly agree, but do not encourage this custom to the uninitiated.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Pythagoras]Hi mickiel,



A novel idea, --- but unfesible for the following few reasons,among many others....(Let me put my Sherlock Holmes hat on.)

Well I understand why you cannot agree, what christian in his right mind would? I am not looking or fishing for agreement, I am simply enjoying myself.Looking more deeply into the blindness of mankind, and understanding more of what I see, and adding thanks to that. You do not have a Sherlock Holmes hat, you have a blind head. If you think catholics have more influence than christians, you just need to study more.

[Rusty T]

I don't understand why you keep talking about tobacco smoke, when it is quiet evident that Holmes was a drug abuser. Have you even read the stories?

rusty

[Pythagoras]

I don't understand why you keep talking about tobacco smoke, when it is quiet evident that Holmes was a drug abuser. Have you even read the stories?

rusty
Drug Abuser? That's an exaggeration, isn't it?

[panda]

There's no doubt that the RCC retained some pagan rituals and "married" them to Christianity...some of which protestants continue to practice. (For example, I have a Christmas tree in my living room and celebrate a day on which Christ was NOT born!) :teeth:

However, I'm not sure if the RCC is the Great Whore, because later in the chapter, she is revealed as the "great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." And in Chapter 18, "she' is described as the center of world trade...so much so, that all the merchants of the world will mourn her fall. In fact, this centralization of commerce seems to be the most important characteristic about her.

I agree that there is some connection to Rome...and I agree that there is also a spiritual connection...but as for the rest of the description, it's not true of Rome...at least, not at present...and it's certainly not true of the RCC.

Rome, as an empire of the past, has ties to ancient Babylon...and those ties were retained by the RCC when Christianity transitioned into Catholicism. However, that doesn't mean that the RCC IS the woman on the beast...perhaps the author is speaking of something that we haven't seen yet in our lifetime. Something as simple as the the re-centralization of commerce government in western Europe, in addition to the formation of a centralized world religion that would be an integral part of this "Rome" resurrection.

Panda

[Rusty T]

Interesting article about Holme's habit: http://www.bakerstreetdozen.com/coca.html

It was cocaine, not opium. Are they related? Anyway.

have a good thread, Holmes

[Jude3b]

Well, if the Roman Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Babylon, I guess that would make the Protestant Church the illegitimate b@stard-child of said Whore. :poke:

That is almost correct.

Roman Catholicism is "The Mother of Harlots" and her daughters are the Protestant denominations. The reformation is a good thing in that many christians returned to the Word of God as their source of faith and doctrine. This is great, but they made the same mistake as Romanism - in that they still had "man rule" instead of the Holy Spirit. And created creeds instead of a full return to the Word of God.



They make an image to the beast in that they have not fully returned to the original church of God standard - with its two witnesses the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.

[Pythagoras]

That is almost correct.

Roman Catholicism is "The Mother of Harlots" and her daughters are the Protestant denominations. The reformation is a good thing in that many christians returned to the Word of God as their source of faith and doctrine. This is great, but they made the same mistake as Romanism - in that they still had "man rule" instead of the Holy Spirit. And created creeds instead of a full return to the Word of God.



They make an image to the beast in that they have not fully returned to the original church of God standard - with its two witnesses the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
Bravo..... Holmes thinks you're a man after his own heart....


The Protestant Church is by no means perfect, but the Catholic, she's impossible; the Great Mother of Harlots indeed .

[Pythagoras]

Interesting article about Holme's habit: http://www.bakerstreetdozen.com/coca.html

It was cocaine, not opium. Are they related? Anyway.

have a good thread, HolmesHolmes tells me your characterization of him being an opium or cocaine addict is unfounded. According to him, you are also engaging in a classic slippery slope fallacy. You see, if we follow your reasoning process to it's end then someone who drinks three cups of coffee a day is a drug addict(caffeine), a cigar smoker is always a nicotine addict, a social drinker(beer) is ... well, you get the drift. Watson suggests the same can be said of the insane idea of transubstantiation, which breaks down rather quickly if we follow it's reasoning process to it's logical conclusion(s).

Holmes tells me your outburst has nothing whatsoever to do with opium or cocaine addictions (or what not). But rather, you're annoyed at him for dare suggesting the Great Whore of Babylon in Chapter 17 possibly be the Catholic Church. He consulted Freud to get your diagnosis..

[Pythagoras]

Hi,

However, I'm not sure if the RCC is the Great Whore, because later in the chapter, she is revealed as the "great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." And in Chapter 18, "she' is described as the center of world trade...so much so, that all the merchants of the world will mourn her fall. In fact, this centralization of commerce seems to be the most important characteristic about her.


PandaHolmes suggests you read Catholic history.

Popes crowned and deposed kings and emperors, exacting obedience by threatening them with excommunication .
Even today, the Vatican is the only city which exchanges ambassadors with nations, and she does so with every major country on Earth. One 18th century historian counted 95 Popes who claimed to have Divine power to depose kings and emperors.For instance, historian Walter James wrote that Pope Innocent III(12th century) "held all Europe in his nest." Do you know who was partly(some say substantially) responsible for the downfall of the mighty Soviet Union in the 80's? Yes, the Vatican, and John Paul II in particular; in short Rome, as it is called in international diplomatic parlance. Vatican City is absolutely unique.

Also note that at one point in history Rome was the centre of world trade and the Catholic hierarchy controlled much of that trade. Today the European Union is one of the centres of World Trade , and Rome(Vatican) once again plays a vital part in this traffic with shares in almost every conceievable European , and non-European business enterprise. She was (could still be) even involved in trade with the Italian Mafia!

In Rev. 18:14 the Catholic church is shown to traffic in world trade like the buying/selling of pearls, cargoes of gold,scarlet cloth,bronz, iron etc. including " the souls of men"! To this very day the Catholic Church makes mega millions by selling religious symbols, Catholic literature, rosary beads, Marion icons,etc. etc. to it's hundreds of millions of faithful . In the past she sold 'indulgences' for a fee.(I think she still does so!)

This ancient saying speaks volumes about Catholic Priests: Rome has the most Harlots because she also has the most celibates.
Demand does indeed create it's own supply.

[Pythagoras]

[QUOTE=Pythagoras]Hi mickiel,



A novel idea, --- but unfesible for the following few reasons,among many others....(Let me put my Sherlock Holmes hat on.)

Well I understand why you cannot agree, what christian in his right mind would? I am not looking or fishing for agreement, I am simply enjoying myself.Looking more deeply into the blindness of mankind, and understanding more of what I see, and adding thanks to that. You do not have a Sherlock Holmes hat, you have a blind head. If you think catholics have more influence than christians, you just need to study more.Talk of study more! Book time:

Holmes suggests you start with 'The Vatican Billions', by Avro Manhattan, Chick Publications.

Here's a sampler. Chapter 1:

"Jesus, the founder of Christianity, was the poorest of the poor. Roman Catholicism, which claims to be His church, is the richest of the rich, the wealthiest institution on earth…. How come, that such an institution, ruling in the name of this same itinerant preacher, whose want was such that he had not even a pillow upon which to rest his head, is now so top-heavy with riches that she can rival - indeed, that she can put to shame - the combined might of the most redoubtable financial trusts, of the most potent industrial super-giants, and of the most prosperous global corporation of the world?..."

etc.

[furay]

I'm sorry but when you quote from Chick Publications any credibility you had goes right out the window. :lmbo:

[panda]

Holmes,

"Also note that at one point in history Rome was the centre of world trade and the Catholic hierarchy controlled much of that trade. Today the European Union is one of the centres of World Trade , and Rome(Vatican) once again plays a vital part in this traffic with shares in almost every conceievable European , and non-European business enterprise. She was (could still be) even involved in trade with the Italian Mafia!"

I'm quite familiar with Catholic history...however, Revelation is about the future, not about the past, and although I agree that the RCC was a huge power player in the past, I don't think they have retained the power that they once had...they are less, not more, of a player today.

And while the RCC is certainly involved in world commerce (I don't deny that), I don't see them playing the pivotal role that the Whore plays in Revelation 18. It seems that Mystery Babylon is not "one of the major players," but rather, the CENTER of all commerce and trade, so much so that every business person and stockholder in the world will tear their clothes and mourn in sackcloth when she falls. I don't think this can be said, at the moment, of the Vatican.

Perhaps the RCC will become the central focus of the world at some point in the future, and the center of all commerce and trade, but at present, they are not, and until they are, I don't see how it can be Mystery Babylon.

Just my opinion! Thanks for listening...

Panda

[Jawa Man]

I'm surprised one thing that I will say (me being really cool) hasn't been mentioned yet! Hmm...

Well, Sherlock Holmes, since you seemed to find so many answers in "Elementary my dear Watson," I'm letting you know that I have at least an elementary school education. That's right, I have the knowledge of at least a 5th grader.

Beware.

So anyway, even before this EO stuff started happening, I believed (with a lot of others on this forum) that Mystery Babylon is the Roman Empire, and John's Antichrist is Caesar Nero (666 being the letters in Caesar Nero added together in Hebrew. Some versions say 616, which is Caesar Nero's letter added up in Latin. Remember, letters were used as numbers then.)

Revelation 18 talks a lot about Babylon getting her butt kicked by the 10 kings. Well, during Nero's reign and during the seven year long Jewish War, a Roman Civil War broke out that was so devastating that Nero killed himself. Vespasian, who was besieging Jerusalem at that time, left to fight in the Civil War, and being the victor, became Emperor. During this time an emperor named Galba ruled after Nero, but only for a short time (AD 68-January 69, assassination).

One of the big clues is when John says the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is around now, and the next will rule for a short time.

Here is the list of emperors, from Julius Caesar and six emperors after him.

(Five who have fallen, or dead)
1)Julius Caesar
2)Augustus
3)Tiberius
4)Caligula
5)Claudius

(One who rules now)
6)Nero

(One who is coming who will rule for a short time)
7)Galba

We're told in the next verse one of these kings comes back as the eighth king. During this time there were some people that claimed Nero was again emporer, though he was dead, symbolically being reinstated.

Anyway, just some food for thought Mr. Holmes. Good day, gov'nah!

[revivalfire]

would someone...for the sake of clarity pleeeeeeeeeze define "christian"???

it seems to me, reading thru most of the forums here, that very few, and i do mean very few of the people here are...

as for the whore...well, i do believe it is the roman...hmmm, or should i say babylonian...religion.....

but more generally, the term sure could apply to all the "so-called' "christians' thru the years, who also persecuted the true church...

it would not take a very indepth study of history to see that there is a remnant of faithful followers of Jesus...and they have been persecuted by both the "catholic" and "protestant" 'church....as well as the pagans...

like Jesus said..."you shall know them by their fruits"...
I would agree, there are true Christians in all denominations...and that we need to seperate ourselves from those that we know have fallen away.... but that is easy when they persecute us all the time anyway...:teeth: I.E. ...I'm of a Pentecostal Denomination (Yeah, I know...) I went to a Baptist organized school....I went head to head with my entire bible class and the teacher because we disagreed....there was another person in the class who went to my church but she just sat there... Teacher actually said that I was blatantly wrong.... Yeah..I know how it feels...(To all the Baptists...I know some who are true Christians too..that was just an example..:wink: )

[Pythagoras]

Hi Panda,





however, Revelation is about the future, not about the past, and although I agree that the RCC was a huge power player in the past, I don't think they have retained the power that they once had...they are less, not more, of a player today.

Infact the Catholic church today is probably the richest it's ever been.



It seems that Mystery Babylon is not "one of the major players," but rather, the CENTER of all commerce and trade, so much so that every business person and stockholder in the world will tear their clothes and mourn in sackcloth when she falls. I don't think this can be said, at the moment, of the Vatican.
Now you're confusing the words of scripture.

Where does Rev. 18 say Mystery Babylon will be THE CENTRE OF ALL COMMERCE AND TRADE ?
Where does it say every business person and stockholder in the world will tear their clothes?
Here's scripture, Rev. 18:11: "The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore--cargoes of gold, silver,precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple , silk and scarlet cloth;every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory. costly wood, bronz, iron and marble, incense, myrr..olive oil,..and bodies and souls of men."

If you read carefully you will at once realize that the merchants who deal with the sale of religious paraphanelia would be affected by her downfall-- those dealing in gold, silver, precious stones and pearls(for decorating her many churches, adorning her cardinals, priests etc), fine linen, purple,silk and scarlet cloth (attire for the leaders of the Church,-- Cardinals, Priests, Bishops, Pope), incense, myrr, olive oil etc.(for use in her churches),and bodies and souls of men(sale of religious items like rosaries, Marion icons, etc.)

Rev. 18:15,"The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terified at her torment.They will weep and mourn and cry out:.."

But no business person would rejoice at her destruction, obviously, even those who haven't had dealings with her. For example, can you imagine any sane stockbroker relishing the thought of NY bursting into flames?, the ensuing financial shock waves would spell trouble for all business people . Same principle.


Rev. also says "every sea captain, and all who travel by ship.. will stand far off... They will throw dust on their heads and with weeping and mourning, cry out:.." Obviously every sea captain worth his salt has had dealings with the European Union, of which Rome is a part .
In the same way, if New York burst into flames tomorrow, every sea captain would also throw dust on their heads and with weeping and mourning, cry out, even those who have never actually been to NY. It's just a way of saying NY is an important port of call. But that hardly implies NY is the centre of World Trade. The Bible nowhere suggest Babylon the Great will be THE centre of worldwide commerce and trade, only that it would be a player.

[Pythagoras]

Holmes to Java,



I believed (with a lot of others on this forum) that Mystery Babylon is the Roman Empire, and John's Antichrist is Caesar Nero (666 being the letters in Caesar Nero added together in Hebrew. ..One of the big clues is when John says the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is around now, and the next will rule for a short time.

Here is the list of emperors, from Julius Caesar and six emperors after him.

(Five who have fallen, or dead)
1)Julius Caesar
2)Augustus
3)Tiberius
4)Caligula
5)Claudius

(One who rules now)
6)Nero

(One who is coming who will rule for a short time)
7)Galba

We're told in the next verse one of these kings comes back as the eighth king. During this time there were some people that claimed Nero was again emporer, though he was dead, symbolically being reinstated.

Anyway, just some food for thought Mr. Holmes. Good day, gov'nah!
Greetings,

There's only one big problem. Rev. 17:3 says the Woman sits on this 7 headed monster. She coudn't possibly be sitting on herself , now could she?


"Then the Angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns."

Obviously the Woman and the Seven Headed Monster are two separate entities. Or have they both been transubstantiated into one body and flesh?

Good Day, I must find my pipe.....

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Pythagoras]Talk of study more! Book time:

Holmes suggests you start with 'The Vatican Billions', by Avro Manhattan, Chick Publications.



Who has more influence? Pope John Paul-Catholic, George Bush- Christian. Which one has more power? Rome or the U.S.A.? If you were the devil, or God, and wanted to choose a way to deceive the world, which would you use, Rome, or the U.S.A.? If I wanted to teach the world perversion, I would lift up America. If I wanted to confuse the world spiritually, I would use christianity. If I wanted to deceive the whole world, I would use the world leader. That is not catholics or Rome, It is christians and America. This is what I believe.

[Pythagoras]

Hi mickel,

Holmes thinks you're going off on a tangent.


Who has more influence? Pope John Paul-Catholic, George Bush- Christian.Who says George Bush is a real Christian? To be fair, only God knows his soul however. But even if he was a Christian , you have no point; Bush is not the dictator of the USA,-- they have checks and balances: the Senate, Congress, Superme Court, , universal suffrage, etc.. Bush will be gone in 4 years, unless ofcourse you think he's the anti-Christ.

Which one has more power? Rome or the U.S.A.? What's the point? Where does it say the Whore of Babylon would have to be the most powerful financial and military entity on Earth?


If you were the devil, or God, and wanted to choose a way to deceive the world, which would you use, Rome, or the U.S.A.?
Rome(Popery), because the Vatican is at least 1600 years old where else the USA is barely 300. Besides, Rome has a billion faithful followers, many in America. America is having a hard time spreading Democracy even in Iraq. Surely Rome.


If I wanted to teach the world perversion, I would lift up America
What on earth are you mumbling about?



If I wanted to confuse the world spiritually, I would use christianity
Why not Catholicism?-- Transubstantiation is a perfect example. Mary as co-redemptrix as another, etc.. The Devil is using the perfect device in the form of the Catholic Church to deceieve the World.He's been at it for a long time now. Infact even before the Catholic Church adopted Christ, it was deceieving the World in the form of the Mystery Babylonian Religion, which is at least 4000 years old.



If I wanted to deceive the whole world, I would use the world leader.
Actually, the Devil would use exactly such a leader. He's spoken off in the Revelation. He's the anti-Christ.And you know what, he would hate the Whore of Babylon, or the Catholic Church. So watch out.


That is not catholics or Rome, It is christians and America. This is what I believeYou're entitled to your opinion.

[mickiel]

Why not Catholicism?-- Transubstantiation is a perfect example. Mary as co-redemptrix as another, etc.. The Devil is using the perfect device in the form of the Catholic Church to deceieve the World.He's been at it for a long time now. Infact even before the Catholic Church adopted Christ, it was deceieving the World in the form of the Mystery Babylonian Religion, which is at least 4000 years old.



Think man, think. Its not them, that is tooo easy. Its you, now thats more hard to swallow. Its me, that we can never see. Its perfect seduction. Its me, you and I. We are the whore, and we fit it like a glove.

[Jawa Man]

You're right, Holmes, Rome would not sit on itself. I decided to brush up on my preterism and found this, tektonics.org:

Commentators from all schools have no significant disagreement about what John means when he refers to "seven mountains." The seven hills of the city of Rome are undoubtedly in view. Some say we have a view here of the Roman Catholic church. More commonly it is said that Rome will be the HQ for a coming anti-guy. But who is the harlot? Some say that is Roman Catholicism, but in light of what we have seen so far, the woman who rides the beast is a parody of the pure bride of Christ, and represents the rejected and apostate Jerusalem which did not recognize its Messiah, riding upon Rome in order to take advantage of its protection and authority and persecuting the church (17:6). The many images of apostate Israel as a harlot in the OT (Is. 1:21, Jer. 2:20-3:13, Hosea 9:1, Ezekiel 16) support this view.

[Pythagoras]

Watson to Javaman,

You're right, Holmes, Rome would not sit on itself. I decided to brush up on my preterism and found this, tektonics.org:

... but in light of what we have seen so far, the woman who rides the beast is a parody of the pure bride of Christ, and represents the rejected and apostate Jerusalem which did not recognize its Messiah, riding upon Rome in order to take advantage of its protection and authority and persecuting the church (17:6). The many images of apostate Israel as a harlot in the OT (Is. 1:21, Jer. 2:20-3:13, Hosea 9:1, Ezekiel 16) support this view.Holmes was furious. "And as for my opinion of the above, I consider it to be lurid and damning trash, fit for children and simpletons, hardly worth your while." With that Holmes resumed the morning paper , his cherrywood pipe in hand, filling our digs with with the pungent odor of the burning shag. No few than fifteen minutes passed, however, when Holmes bolted from the couch.

"My Word", he barked at me, "even a cursory examination of the prophecy of Revelation 17 has convinced me Jerusalem can never be the Great Whore of Babylon... Elementary my dear Watson, elementary."

"Jerusalem can't be that woman,because she isn't built upon seven hills and doesn't meet any of the other criteria.Obviously,then, the city which this woman represents must claim a faithful relationship to God similar to Jerusalem's. In fact, Rome claims to have replaced Jerusalem in God's affection.And she has violated that relationship by entering inot unholy alliances with godless earthly kings.Rome alone meets this and many other criteria that John sets forth. "

[Pythagoras]

Hi,



Here's more information on the Catholic Church, and not from Chick Publications , since some here seem to have an aversion to that particular publishing company:



http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2029218&sourceid=1500000000000001827190&dest=9999999997 (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2029218&sourceid=1500000000000001827190&dest=9999999997)



The Vatican Exposed: Money, Murder, and the Mafia

Trade Cloth, Prometheus Books, 2003, ISBN# 1591020654
Hardcover

Author: Williams, Paul L.



Over 50 billion dollars in securities. Gold reserves that exceed those of industrialized nations. Real estate holdings that equal the total area of many countries. Opulent palaces containing the world's greatest art treasures. These are some of the riches of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet in 1929 the Vatican was destitute. Pope Pius XI, living in a damaged, leaky, pigeon-infested LateranPalace, could hear rats scurrying through the walls, and he worried about how he would pay for even basic repairs to unclog the overburdened sewer lines and update the antiquated heating system. How did the Church manage in less than seventy-five years such an incredible reversal of fortune? The story here told by Church historian Paul Williams is intriguing, shocking, and outrageous.





BTW, remember the now deceased Malachi Martin, Jesuit priest(ex?)? Martin had first made explicit reference to a diabolic rite held in Rome in his 1990 non-fiction best-seller about geopolitics and the Vatican, The Keys of This Blood, in which he wrote:





Most frighteningly for [Pope] John Paul [II], he had come up against the irremovable presence of a malign strength in his own Vatican and in certain bishops’ chanceries. It was what knowledgeable Churchmen called the ‘superforce.’ Rumors, always difficult to verify, tied its installation to the beginning of Pope Paul VI’s reign in 1963. Indeed Paul had alluded somberly to ‘the smoke of Satan which has entered the Sanctuary’. . . an oblique reference to an enthronement ceremony by Satanists in the Vatican. Besides, the incidence of Satanic pedophilia — rites and practices — was already documented among certain bishops and priests as widely dispersed as Turin, in Italy, and South Carolina, in the United States. The cultic acts of Satanic pedophilia are considered by professionals to be the culmination of the Fallen Archangel’s rites. (p. 632. )



Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo too has spoken about Satanism in the Vatican, and took heat for it…

My , my.........








"My mind," he said, "rebels at stagnation. Give me prob- lems, give me work, give me the most abstruse cryptogram, or the most intricate analysis, and I am in my own proper atmo- sphere. I can dispense then with artificial stimulants. But I abhor the dull routine of existence. I crave for mental exaltation"
Sherlock Holmes in Sign of Four, Arthur Conan Doyle.

[Pythagoras]

"It is of the first importance," Holmes cried, "not to allow your judgment to be biased by personal leanings. A case is to me a mere unit, a factor in a problem. The emotional qualities are antagonistic to clear reasoning. I assure you that the most winning woman I ever knew was hanged for poisoning three little children for their insurance-money, and the most repellent man of my acquaintance is a philanthropist who has spent nearly a quarter of a million upon the London poor.Watson, let us now consider the words of Karl Keating, a Catholic apologist."

"Babylon is a code word for Rome.It is used that way six times in the last book of the Bible(four of the six are in chapters 17 and 18) and in extrabiblical works such as Sibylling Oracles(5, 159f), the Apocalypse of Baruch(ii,1), and 4 Esdras(3:1)

Eusebius Pamphilius, writing about 303, noted that "it is said that Peter's first epistle... was composed at Rome itself; and that he himself indicates this, refering to the city figuratively as Babylon."

[wanboredlatino]

"And they cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!" Rev. 18:18

People in ancient Rome's time knew that this was a great city, the greatest city. People in our time do not know that Vatican city is a great city, the greatest city. How many even know it exists?

[Constantine]

Holmes suggests you start with 'The Vatican Billions', by Avro Manhattan, Chick Publications

Chick publications?

This is your credibiliy: :smile:

This is your credibility on Chick: :b_rotten:

[JamesD]

THE SIGN OF FOUR
by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Chapter 1

THE SCIENCE OF DEDUCTION

SHERLOCK HOLMES took his bottle from the corner of the mantelpiece, and his hypodermic syringe from its neat morocco case. With his long, white, nervous fingers he adjusted the delicate needle and rolled back his left shirtcuff. For some little time his eyes rested thoughtfully upon the sinewy forearm and wrist, all dotted and scarred with innumerable puncture-marks. Finally, he thrust the sharp point home, pressed down the tiny piston, and sank back into the velvet-lined armchair with a long sigh of satisfaction.

Three times a day for many months I had witnessed this performance, but custom had not reconciled my mind to it. On the contrary, from day to day I had become more irritable at the sight, and my conscience swelled nightly within me at the thought that I had lacked the courage to protest. Again and again I had registered a vow that I should deliver my soul upon the subject; but there was that in the cool, nonchalant air of my companion which made him the last man with whom one would care to take anything approaching to a liberty. His great powers, his masterly manner, and the experience which I had had of his many extraordinary qualities, all made me diffident and backward in crossing him.

Yet upon that afternoon, whether it was the Beaune which I had taken with my lunch or the additional exasperation produced by the extreme deliberation of his manner, I suddenly felt that I could hold out no longer.

"Which is it to-day," I asked, "morphine or cocaine?"

He raised his eyes languidly from the old black-letter volume which he had opened.

"It is cocaine," he said, "a seven-per-cent solution. Would you care to try it?"Sherlock knew that things go better with Coke®.
Wednesday the History Channel said that John wrote revelations about the Roman Empire, Caesar Nero, Julius Ceasar, Caligula and Ceasar Salad ect. :lol: This was after the Romans booted his butt to an island and exiled him there for life. Guess he made someone mad.

[Pythagoras]

Sherlock knew that things go better with Coke®.
Wednesday the History Channel said that John wrote revelations about the Roman Empire, Caesar Nero, Julius Ceasar, Caligula and Ceasar Salad ect. :lol: This was after the Romans booted his butt to an island and exiled him there for life. Guess he made someone mad.So you believe John was a malcontent-- hence his outburst in the form of the book of Revelation in retaliation for the Roman ill-treatment of him..

Interesting hypothesis.

[ross3421]

"And they cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!" Rev. 18:18

People in ancient Rome's time knew that this was a great city, the greatest city. People in our time do not know that Vatican city is a great city, the greatest city. How many even know it exists?





Babylon is Jerusalem

The Whore

Scholars declare that this whore is a world system involving Rome, Europe, the US with a world church and so on. There is zero scriptural evidence for this thinking. It is a fairy tale!! Again, let’s back theories with scripture. First, the whore is one city not cities nor a world system. Second, the bible only has spoken of one such city as a whore, Jerusalem. Who’s out there is studying to show thyself approved?

Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a WHORE.

Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.

I have attach further study on the subject....

In Christ, Mark

[AV1611]

Well, I think the Bible gives us many clues. Let's adopt an investigative approach like Sherlock Holmes would have, in analyzing her .

First, the woman's location.

(1)The Bible says "The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits."
(2) She is also referred to as Babylon.

Question:

Is there a connection betwen (1) and (2) as described in the Revelation? I think so.

.It is significant that Rome began as a network of seven hill settlements on the left bank of the Tiber. Her designation as the city of seven hills is commonplace among Roman writers(eg. Virgil, Martial, Cicero).

. As for Babylon, it is a well known fact that this word is code for Rome in the NT.( I can elaborate for the novices, but in another post).

So can we begin by asserting this woman to probably be located in Rome? Any objections? Comments?


God Bless,

The main place of Hinduism is called the "seven hills"! I believe that the Whore is the false religions in so would include the RCC. :)

[Dynasty]

BABYLON THE GREAT AND THE GREAT HARLOT - WHO IS SHE?

Many have identified this symbolic harlot with ancient Rome. But Rome was a political power. This harlot commits fornication with the kings of the earth, and this evidently includes the kings of Rome. However, Revelation 18:9,10 states:

“And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!"

So in the light of the above text, after her destruction, “the kings of the earth” are said to mourn her passing. Therefore, she cannot be a political power. What other scriptural evidence can we use to identify her? Revelation 18:15-17 states:

“The traveling merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of [their] fear of her torment and will weep and mourn, saying, ‘Too bad, too bad—the great city, clothed with fine linen and purple and scarlet, and richly adorned with gold ornament and precious stone and pearl, because in one hour such great riches have been devastated!"

So additionally, since she is mourned also by the world’s merchants, so she could not picture big business or a financial power.

So from the above we have deducted the following:

1) She is not a political power (Rome, USA, Britain, Jerusalem, etc.)
2) She is not an economic power (Influential international business)

WHAT ELSE DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE GREAT HARLOT?

Revelation 18:23 states:

"...and no light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, for by your spiritistic practice all the nations were misled."

The above is a CRUCIAL scripture in identifying the Great Harlot. It clealy informs us that "by her spiritistic practice all the nations were misled." This makes it clear that the great harlot must be a worldwide religious entity. Additionally, not a single segment of a spiritism is found outside religion. However, so individuals may ask the following:

"Which religious entity?" "Is she the Roman Catholic Church", as some have maintained? "Or is she all of Christendom?" No, she must be even larger than these if she is to mislead all the nations. She is, in fact, the entire world empire of false religion. Her origin in the mysteries of Babylon is shown in that many Babylonish doctrines and practices are common to religions around the earth. For example, belief in the inherent immortality of the human soul, in a hell of torment, and in a trinity of gods is to be found in most Oriental religions as well as in the sects of Christendom. False religion, spawned more than 4,000 years ago in the ancient city of Babylon, has developed into the modern monstrosity that is called, appropriately, Babylon the Great.

So finally, "Babylon the Great" and the "Great Harlot" is....

THE WORLD EMPIRE OF FALSE RELIGION WHO ARE NOT REPRESENTED BY THE TRUE GOD!

The above conclusion can be perfectly reconciled with scripture and additionally, secular evidence, which I can give on request. If anybody wants me to elaborate on the above, just ask.

P.S. If any individual disagrees with the above, can you please explain why and what evidence you have to back your claim.

[Jude3b]

Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

THANK YOU FOR ASKING THIS QUESTION.

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Rev. 17:5)

The 17 th chapter of Revelation in particular gives us a more particular description of the church of Rome, "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (verse 18), is given under the symbol of a drunken harlot. With this vile prostitute "the kings of the earth have committed fornication" - they have encouraged her in her corruption and idolatries - "and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." This latter symbol is doubtless taken from the cup of drugged wine with which lewd women were accustomed to inflame their lovers. So had this apostate Roman Catholic church made "the inhabitants of the earth" - of the ten kingdoms - drunken with her wine-cup and thus rendered them willing partakers in her abominable idolatries.

This beast was full of the names of blasphemy, which were the same as the blasphemous assumptions of the Papacy.

This woman had also a name on her forehead. It was not, indeed, placed there by herself nor by her admirers; but He who drew this symbolic picture placed it there that all might know her true character. 'MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Anyone who seriously peruses the history of the Papacy will be forced to declare with emphasis, "Without controversy great is the mystery of Romanism." She is also styled Babylon the Great. This name is derived from ancient Babylon. This city was the center of the earth's idolatry and stood first of all as the direct enemy of God's people. So, likewise, this Roman Catholic religion is the center of earth's spiritual idolatry. There are other harlots, or corrupt churches, in the world beside her; but she is the mother of them all. They are all children on her side. Some of them greatly honor her and in deep veneration call her "our holy mother church;" but God brands her as the "mother of harlots and abominations of the earth."

[ross3421]

THANK YOU FOR ASKING THIS QUESTION.

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Rev. 17:5)

The 17 th chapter of Revelation in particular gives us a more particular description of the church of Rome, "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (verse 18), is given under the symbol of a drunken harlot. With this vile prostitute "the kings of the earth have committed fornication" - they have encouraged her in her corruption and idolatries - "and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." This latter symbol is doubtless taken from the cup of drugged wine with which lewd women were accustomed to inflame their lovers. So had this apostate Roman Catholic church made "the inhabitants of the earth" - of the ten kingdoms - drunken with her wine-cup and thus rendered them willing partakers in her abominable idolatries.

This beast was full of the names of blasphemy, which were the same as the blasphemous assumptions of the Papacy.

This woman had also a name on her forehead. It was not, indeed, placed there by herself nor by her admirers; but He who drew this symbolic picture placed it there that all might know her true character. 'MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Anyone who seriously peruses the history of the Papacy will be forced to declare with emphasis, "Without controversy great is the mystery of Romanism." She is also styled Babylon the Great. This name is derived from ancient Babylon. This city was the center of the earth's idolatry and stood first of all as the direct enemy of God's people. So, likewise, this Roman Catholic religion is the center of earth's spiritual idolatry. There are other harlots, or corrupt churches, in the world beside her; but she is the mother of them all. They are all children on her side. Some of them greatly honor her and in deep veneration call her "our holy mother church;" but God brands her as the "mother of harlots and abominations of the earth."

Hi,

Babylon is NOT Rome or a reveiwed empire. It is the end time Jerusalem.

The Whore

Scholars declare that this whore is a world system involving Rome, Europe, the US with a world church and so on. There is zero scriptural evidence for this thinking. Again, let’s back theories with scripture. First, the whore is one city not cities nor a world system. Second, the bible only has spoken of one such city as a whore, Jerusalem. Who’s out there is studying to show thyself approved?

Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a WHORE.

Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.

“...upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy”.

Above now we see a beast full of blasphemy, the False Prophet, who has arrayed himself in scarlet as will the true Christ adorns himself upon his return in Rev 19:13. Below, we see that this color was for kings and represented authority and in no way represents the Catholic Church or the Pope as some wrongly teach.

The scarlet color beast represents a literal king who is arrayed in royalty. This does not represent the Catholic Church.

Dan 6:29 “Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom”.

Ex 28:2 “And thou shalt make holy garments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for beauty. V5 And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen”.

Matt 27:28,29 “And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And when they had plaited a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocking him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews”.

Rev. 19:13 “And he (Christ) was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God”.

“And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications”.

First we have a King arrayed in scarlet and now we see a that this adulteress “Woman” , the city, arrayed in scarlet just as God’s Temple was covered with scarlet from the offerings of the people on the Sabbath day. We see that this Temple in the future will also be covered with jewels like this “woman”.

The adulteress woman arrayed in scarlet color and jewels is the literal city in which has power over the kings of the earth. As in the past with the Temple being arrayed in these colors from the people’s offerings and jewels so shall it be in the future Kingdom of God.

Ex 26:1 “Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet...”

Ex 27:16 “And for the gate of the court shall be an hanging of twenty cubits, of blue, and purple, and scarlet....”

Ex 35:3-6 “Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the Lord commanded, saying, Take ye from among you an offering unto the Lord; gold, and silver, and brass, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat’s hair...”

Ex 35:23,25 “And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goat’s hair, and red skins of rams, and badger’s skins, brought them. V25 And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen.”

Ex 36:7 “For the stuff they had was sufficient for all the work to make it, and too much.”

We see that just as Moses commanded the people to bring offerings of purple, scarlet, and fine linen to the city to worship so will the False Prophet command to do the same on the Sabbath and the city will be arrayed in these colors. An interesting note is that the words purple and scarlet are only used together in Exodus and the book of Revelation.

We also see this adulteress city adorned with gold, fine jewels, and pearls as will the future Kingdom of God as seen in Rev. 21:18-21.

Attached is the truth on Babylon.

In Christ, Mark.

[Jude3b]

HISTORY AND SCRIPTURE DEMONSTRATE THAT ROMANISM IS THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, THE GREAT WHORE, ABOBINATIONS TO THE EARTH!!!!

Rome is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

To illustrate this point would be to write a book of martyrs much larger than Foxes book of martyrs. I will not do that here, but I will bring forward a few of the many historical proofs showing that Rome claims the right to exterminate heretics.

Innumerable provincial and national councils have issued the most cruel and bloody laws for the extermination of the Waldenses and other so-called heretics; such as the Councils of Oxford, Toledo, Avignon, Tours, Lavaur, Albi, Narbonne, Beziers, Tolosa, etc.

Since Papists will assert that these had not authority to establish a doctrine of the church (although they clearly reflect its spirit), I remind all TWEB readers tht some of their General Councils have by their decrees pronounced the punishment of death for heresy. At least six of these highest judicial assemblies of the Romish church, with the Pope at their head, have authoritatively enjoined the persecution and extermination of heretics. Extracts from the Acts of these Councils could be given if space permitted. 1) The second General Council of Lateran (1139), in its twenty-third canon. 2) The third General Council of Lateran (1179), under Pope Alexander III. 3) The fourth General Coucil of Lateran (1215), under the inhuman monster Pope Innocent III., which exceeded in ferocity all similar decrees that had preceded it. 4) The sixteenth General Council, held at Constance in 1414. This Council, with Pope Martin present in person, condemned the reformers Huss and Jerome to be burned at the stake and then prevailed on emperor Sigismund to violate the safe-conduct that he had given Huss, signed by his own hand, in which he guaranteed the reformer a safe return to Bohemia; and the inhuman sentence was carried out, with the haughty prelates standing by to satiate their eyes on the sight of human agony. This council also condemned the writings of Wickliffe and ordered his bones to be dug up and burnt, which savage sentence was afterwards carried into effect; and after lying in their grave for forty years, the remains of this first translator of the English Bible were reduced to ashes and thrown in the brook Swift. Well has the historian Fuller said, in reference to this subject, "The brook Swift did convey his ashes into Avon, the Avon into Severn, the Severn into the narrow seas, and they into the main ocean. And thus the ashes of Wickliffe are the emblem of his doctrie, which is now dispersed all over the world." 5) The Council of Sienna (1423), which was afterward continued at Basil. 6) The fifth General Council of the Lateran (1514). The laws enacted in each succeeding Council were generally marked, if possible, with augmented barbarity.

The so-called, ST. AQUINAS, whom Romanists call the "angelic Doctor," says, "Heretics are to be compelled by corporeal punishments, that they may adhere to the faith." Again, "Heretics may not only be excommunicated, but justly killed." He says that "the church consigns such to the secular judges to be exterminated from the world by death."

Roman Catholicism = MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS TO THE EARTH! INDEED!

[ross3421]

HISTORY AND SCRIPTURE DEMONSTRATE THAT ROMANISM IS THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, THE GREAT WHORE, ABOBINATIONS TO THE EARTH!!!!

Rome is "drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

To illustrate this point would be to write a book of martyrs much larger than Foxes book of martyrs. I will not do that here, but I will bring forward a few of the many historical proofs showing that Rome claims the right to exterminate heretics.

Innumerable provincial and national councils have issued the most cruel and bloody laws for the extermination of the Waldenses and other so-called heretics; such as the Councils of Oxford, Toledo, Avignon, Tours, Lavaur, Albi, Narbonne, Beziers, Tolosa, etc.

Since Papists will assert that these had not authority to establish a doctrine of the church (although they clearly reflect its spirit), I remind all TWEB readers tht some of their General Councils have by their decrees pronounced the punishment of death for heresy. At least six of these highest judicial assemblies of the Romish church, with the Pope at their head, have authoritatively enjoined the persecution and extermination of heretics. Extracts from the Acts of these Councils could be given if space permitted. 1) The second General Council of Lateran (1139), in its twenty-third canon. 2) The third General Council of Lateran (1179), under Pope Alexander III. 3) The fourth General Coucil of Lateran (1215), under the inhuman monster Pope Innocent III., which exceeded in ferocity all similar decrees that had preceded it. 4) The sixteenth General Council, held at Constance in 1414. This Council, with Pope Martin present in person, condemned the reformers Huss and Jerome to be burned at the stake and then prevailed on emperor Sigismund to violate the safe-conduct that he had given Huss, signed by his own hand, in which he guaranteed the reformer a safe return to Bohemia; and the inhuman sentence was carried out, with the haughty prelates standing by to satiate their eyes on the sight of human agony. This council also condemned the writings of Wickliffe and ordered his bones to be dug up and burnt, which savage sentence was afterwards carried into effect; and after lying in their grave for forty years, the remains of this first translator of the English Bible were reduced to ashes and thrown in the brook Swift. Well has the historian Fuller said, in reference to this subject, "The brook Swift did convey his ashes into Avon, the Avon into Severn, the Severn into the narrow seas, and they into the main ocean. And thus the ashes of Wickliffe are the emblem of his doctrie, which is now dispersed all over the world." 5) The Council of Sienna (1423), which was afterward continued at Basil. 6) The fifth General Council of the Lateran (1514). The laws enacted in each succeeding Council were generally marked, if possible, with augmented barbarity.

The so-called, ST. AQUINAS, whom Romanists call the "angelic Doctor," says, "Heretics are to be compelled by corporeal punishments, that they may adhere to the faith." Again, "Heretics may not only be excommunicated, but justly killed." He says that "the church consigns such to the secular judges to be exterminated from the world by death."

Roman Catholicism = MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS TO THE EARTH! INDEED!

Scripture clearly identifies the city as Jerusalem not Rome. Please back you theory on scripture not anothers writing. Nowhere in scripture does Rome equate with Babylon, it is a modern day ideology.

Granted Rome is Pagan, I was raised Catholic however became a Christian. I know of the above and have studied this history. Though what you say is true, the church had slaughtered many true believers in the name of God it is not Babylon.

Claiming Rome is Babylon is to miss the whole understanding of end time events. The Antichrists claims to be the most high, would he return in Rome?
No, he will return as the second coming of Christ to Jerusalem and a supposed kingdom. Such will be a strong delusion it would decieve you and I. A world dictator residing in Rome would hardly do this.

In Christ, Mark

Please read my attachment for further support.

[Jude3b]

Scripture clearly identifies the city as Jerusalem not Rome. Please back you theory on scripture not anothers writing. Nowhere in scripture does Rome equate with Babylon, it is a modern day ideology.

Granted Rome is Pagan, I was raised Catholic however became a Christian. I know of the above and have studied this history. Though what you say is true, the church had slaughtered many true believers in the name of God it is not Babylon.

Claiming Rome is Babylon is to miss the whole understanding of end time events. The Antichrists claims to be the most high, would he return in Rome?
No, he will return as the second coming of Christ to Jerusalem and a supposed kingdom. Such will be a strong delusion it would decieve you and I. A world dictator residing in Rome would hardly do this.

In Christ, Mark

Please read my attachment for further support.

Let me guess Mark, you must be a Pre-Mill...? and therefore it doesn't matter that nearly the whole book of Revelation is about the History of the church, written in advance and most nearly all of it is already fulfilled.

NOT ROMANISM YOU SAY, NOT IN THE BIBLE YOU SAY!

Rev. 17:7 - "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

Many understand the mountains to signify the seven mountains on which the city of RomE is said to be built.

But, the more obvious meaning is that the seven heads represent seven mountains and also seven kings.

They are the same seven heads and denote the seven kings or seven forms of government under which the Roman empire subsisted.

The beast that John here saw, with the seven heads and ten horns, was Rome under the Papal power.

PAGAN AND PAPAL:

These two forms of Roman history are the same beast and that explains the statement that the beast, "was and is not, and yet is."

Mark, this was exactly the history of Rome. Its downfall under the Pagan form was described under the fourth trumpet as an eclipse of the sun, moon and stars, so that they shone not for a third part of the day and night. For a time it seemed not to exist. A little later the eclipse is lifted; the beast exists again under the Papal form. In this is set forth clearly the wounding and the healing of the beast. The wound was inflicted on its sixth, or Imperial, head (for the first 5 had already fallen, according to the historical facts about Rome), being accomplished by the hordes of Northern barbarians overturning the empire of the West. It appeard for a while that the beast was indeed wounded unto death; but not so: to the surprise of all, he survived under the form of the seventh head. "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven." (verse 11).

[InChristAlways]

Scripture clearly identifies the city as Jerusalem not Rome. Please back you theory on scripture not anothers writing. Nowhere in scripture does Rome equate with Babylon, it is a modern day ideology.

Granted Rome is Pagan, I was raised Catholic however became a Christian. I know of the above and have studied this history. Though what you say is true, the church had slaughtered many true believers in the name of God it is not Babylon.

Claiming Rome is Babylon is to miss the whole understanding of end time events. The Antichrists claims to be the most high, would he return in Rome?
No, he will return as the second coming of Christ to Jerusalem and a supposed kingdom. Such will be a strong delusion it would decieve you and I. A world dictator residing in Rome would hardly do this.

In Christ, Mark

Please read my attachment for further support.Hi Mark. You and I are pretty close on agreement brother.
It is 2 pagan empires. Jerusalem is actually Egypt/"spiritual babylon", and Rome is "physical" babylon as described in Ezekiel 30 and the times of the gentiles.
The bodies of the 2 witnesses fall in spiritual Egypt/Sodom, so Israel would be symbolically Egypt, and Sodom would be Jerusalem. In either case, revelation is biblically the destruction of the house of Judah/Harlot/Jerusalem "mystery Babylon" in the first century. The last curse of Deut 28 to fall on Jerusalem was to be taken back to Egypt in "ships". Revelation is so devinely symbolically, one just has to look at the OT and see how many different ways Jerusalem was calle worst than the pagan nations around it. Pick any pagan name. Does this make any sense? :ahem:

Luke 21:24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the Times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Ezekiel 30:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 "Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Wail, 'Woe to the day!' 3 For The Day [is] near, Even The Day of the LORD [is] near; It will be a day of clouds, the Time of the Gentiles/Nations. 4 The sword shall come upon Egypt, And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia, When the slain fall in Egypt, And they take away her wealth, And her foundations are broken down. 23 'I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and disperse them throughout the countries. 24 'I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon and put My sword in his hand; but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he will groan before him with the groanings of a mortally wounded [man.] 25 'Thus I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, but the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; they shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I put My sword into the hand of the king of Babylon and he stretches it out against the land of Egypt. 26 'I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them throughout the countries. Then they shall know that I [am] the LORD.' "

[ross3421]

Let me guess Mark, you must be a Pre-Mill...? and therefore it doesn't matter that nearly the whole book of Revelation is about the History of the church, written in advance and most nearly all of it is already fulfilled.

NOT ROMANISM YOU SAY, NOT IN THE BIBLE YOU SAY!

Rev. 17:7 - "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Many understand the mountains to signify the seven mountains on which the city of RomE is said to be built.

But, the more obvious meaning is that the seven heads represent seven mountains and also seven kings.

They are the same seven heads and denote the seven kings or seven forms of government under which the Roman empire subsisted.

The beast that John here saw, with the seven heads and ten horns, was Rome under the Papal power.

PAGAN AND PAPAL:

These two forms of Roman history are the same beast and that explains the statement that the beast, "was and is not, and yet is."

Mark, this was exactly the history of Rome. Its downfall under the Pagan form was described under the fourth trumpet as an eclipse of the sun, moon and stars, so that they shone not for a third part of the day and night. For a time it seemed not to exist. A little later the eclipse is lifted; the beast exists again under the Papal form. In this is set forth clearly the wounding and the healing of the beast. The wound was inflicted on its sixth, or Imperial, head (for the first 5 had already fallen, according to the historical facts about Rome), being accomplished by the hordes of Northern barbarians overturning the empire of the West. It appeard for a while that the beast was indeed wounded unto death; but not so: to the surprise of all, he survived under the form of the seventh head. "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven." (verse 11).

First, the is no mill......in which we can have later debate. Now back to Babylon. First of all, the whole book in not about the church, it is about the 144,000 tribes of Israel as well. It is about those who overcome within the church and those Jews who keep the commandments during this time of trial.

We see John does in fact write a book unto the churches....

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

But know we see John is to address a different audiance....

Re 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

You state that the above verse speaks of Rome?

To get the correct understanding of the seven heads/mountains we must first understand who the beast is.....

THE BEAST FROM THE SEA

The first beast mentioned in Revelation 13 is usually referred to as a “man”, the anti-christ, which is seen arising out of a “sea” of multitudes. But is this first beast even a man? And does this “sea” mentioned mean from a sea of people? This first beast represents the KINGDOM of the dragon which arises out of the abyss, the pit of hell. As the first beast is Satan and his kingdom to represent the Kingdom of God, the second beast is the man, the son of the first beast or better known as the “son of perdition”, the False Prophet, to resemble the Son of God, the True Prophet .

THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH

Rev 13:11,12 “And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon”.

As the “sea” represents Hell and where the first beast arises, now we see a second beast coming up out of the earth. Again we see a beast coming “up from” or from below to signify once again the abyss. He is seen as the king of the bottomless pit in Rev chapter 9 however this beast is referenced as coming up from the earth (Gen 2) as to signify a “man” , the son of the first beast, the son of perdition to be likened after the “Lamb” the Son of God.

This second beast is “like” a lamb as he gives his appearance as to being the one and only Lamb of God and he speaks like his father the devil. This counterfeit has “two horns” which symbolizes more than being evil or for looks as it represents a certain characteristic of this lamb. As we will see the 10 horns of the beast representing the “House of Israel”, these two horns represent the “House of Judah” where the Lamb originates.

Rev. 5:5,6 “…Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it has been slain, having seven horns….”.

Interesting to note that both Lambs are referenced as having a characteristic of a lion which is seen in the four beasts and both “roar” like a lion as Peter notes the devil roaring “as” a lion (1 Pt. 5:8). In addition of being from the tribe of Judah, we see “The Lamb” above also having seven horns which will be shown to parallel the seven heads of the beast. Furthermore, both have been slain !

Both are seen as Lambs
Both are referenced as Lions
Both are also Man
Both speak like their fathers
Both exercise the power of their fathers
Both cause to worship their father
Both are seen coming from heaven
Both perform miracles
Both have been slain and live
Both have seven heads
Both will have a “Mark” on their people
Both destroy those without this Mark
Both Have a number !!!

Now, after John describes this lamb in chapter 13 he then describes another Lamb immediately following in chapter 14. When one understands the counterfeit and by studying both then one can gain an insight of each Lamb as each should “mirror” the other. Look at the similarities; this will be the key to understanding the MARK of the beast.

Rev. 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on mount sion
with him an hundred and forty and four thousand
having “HIS” father’s name written in “THEIR” foreheads”.

Rev. 13

And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb
And he caused all to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads
Let him count the number of the beast: for it is a number of a man

We now must understand the four beasts.....

THE FOUR BEASTS

As we continue with the counterfeit we see below both involve four beasts;

The four beasts before the throne of God;

Rev. 4:7 “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast was like a calf, and the third beast was like a face of a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle”.

The four beasts before the throne of Satan;

Rev. 13:2 “And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power , and his seat, and his great authority”.

Now, let’s include Daniel’s visions of Nebuchadnezzar for further insight.

God’s Kingdom Satan’s Kingdom Nebuchadnezzar’s Image

Lion Lion Head of Gold
Calf Bear Breast/Arms of silver
Face of a Man Leopard Bell/Thighs of brass
Flying Eagle Dragon Legs/Feet

The four beasts are “latter day” kings which co-exist during the time when Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom.

Dan. 2:44 “And in the days of these kings (speaking of the 10 kings) shall God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume ALL these kingdoms (Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron/Clay) and it shall stand for ever.

Dan. 7:11,12 “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake….V12 As concerning the rest of the beasts (Lion, Bear, Leopard) they had their dominion taken away YET their lives were prolonged for a season and a time”.

Dan. 8:22,23 “Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his (Grecia) power (power is now from the dragon). And in the latter time of THEIR (Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron/Clay) kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up”.

It very important to understand that these four beasts (kingdoms) all exist during the latter days and the time of Christ’s return. Thus they cannot represent Grecia, Media, Persia, and a revived Roman Empire as is being taught today. Again it is time when God sets up a kingdom, when a fierce king stands up, and at a time when a beast speaks great words and is slain. These four kingdoms will rise up in the latter days after the events in Matt 24:7 and do not exist today. Likewise, the seven heads do not exist currently as they come up from the four beasts.

Now to the proper understanding of the seven heads......

THE SEVEN HEADS

Normally scholars want to include the four beasts along with Media, Persia, Greece, and a Roman Empire and come up with the seven heads but this would mean that these kings would have to exist over many centuries and as shown would counterdict scripture. If we look closely at the four beasts we see the seven heads !

Daniel’s Vision

Lion Has eagle wings Head #1
Bear Laying on it’s side Head #2
Leopard four Heads Head #3, #4, #5, #6
Beast Strong and terrible Head #7

Now to the correct understanding of the beast which was slain......

Now, in Revelation 13 we are told that one of the seven heads of the beast has been wounded unto death but lives. What does this mean? Resurrection? Resuscitation? Which head is wounded? Again, the teachers of the day want us to think that a world dictator suffers a head wound but miraculously lives and thus the world now follows this man beast. There is no scriptural evidence for this line of thought!

Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of a great tree in Daniel chapter 4 gives us the answer. There we see this head of gold, the king, hew down and “wounded unto death” and “slain” and then the king becomes a “beast” of the field. However he is later restored by the roots which is symbolic of the 10 kings.

The head of Nebuchadnezzar Image slain and restored;

Nebuchadnezzar’s Image

Head of Gold - Hew down and made a beast, dominion taken
Breast/Arms of silver
Bell/Thighs of brass
Legs/Feet/Iron Clay - Kingdom is restored by it’s roots (ten toes)

Dan. 4:14 “He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree (head of gold), and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches: Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots (10 toes) in the earth, even with a band iron and brass…”.

Dan. 4:26 “And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule”.

The head of the Beast slain and restored;

Satan’s Kingdom

Lion - Dominion taken away, Dan 7:12.
Bear
Leopard
Dragon - Kingdom restored among his roots(ten kings).

Rev 13:3 “And I saw one of his heads (head #1, Lion) wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast”.

Dan 7:8 “I considered the horns (four beasts), and, behold, there came up among them a little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns (beasts) plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were the eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things”.

We see in Rev. chapter 12 Satan and his kingdom being cast down ,“slain”, just as it is seen in the image of Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar typified Satan and we need to understand that it was his kingdom and not himself which is slain. Thus as is the kingdom of Satan, the kingdom not a man is slain and appears to be rendered powerless. The world will follow the beast not because he has a literal head wound which has been healed but because they believe it is Jesus Christ, I mean who could make war with him…...

Also notice that the deadly head wound was to the first beast in Rev 13 not to the second beast. The first beast we identified as Satan and his kingdom and is not a man. However, this kingdom now will be restored under the second beast, the False Prophet, which is the little horn and a man.

Rev 13:12 “…which dwell therein to worship the FIRST BEAST, whose deadly wound was healed”.

The head of God slain and restored;

God has also had a “head” wounded unto death. Who else is seen as a lion and was a “man” which has been slain and also lives and will be among his roots once restored? The Son of God.

Now let’s get the understanding of Rev. 17:10;

“And there are seven kings: five have fallen (Bear (1), Leopard (4)), and one is (Lion (1)) , and the other is not yet come (Dragon (1)), and when he (Dragon) cometh, he MUST continue a short space (continues for 42 months Rev. 13:5). And the beast that was (Lion), and is not (dominion taken away), even he is the eighth (little horn), and is of the seven (not seventh like most think remember the beast has seven heads). And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings….”.

Jude3b, I know the theory of Rome I even had a tape from which I would pass around stating such. The problem was that I did not study to show thyself approved. Please take time to study these passages and you will find as I have much of today's teaching on the end time are incorrect.

In Christ, Mark.

[Lion]

The problem with determining who the whore is, and when she appears is to get the setting in which she appears.
to get the picturwe have to go back several chapters to learn the identity of the beast she rides on. There are three seven headed monsters in the book of revelation.

In Rev 12 we find a red dragon.

There is pregnant woman about ready to give birth. /she has an enemy in the form of a dragon with seven heads and ten horns and a crown on each head. The word for crown is diadem, or kingly crown.

Rev. 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
Rev. 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
Rev. 12:8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

So we now know where Satan came from. He was an angel who rebelled and was cast out of heaven. What do the seven heads and the crowns mean. Seven means completeness, or the totality, of something. In other words, the total of Satan’s rule. The crowns, then, must mean seven kings in Satan’s effort to oppose God.

The next seven headed animal appears in Rev 13. Really, there is no break in the narrative. Chapters and verses were invented to make it convenient for the persons following the preacher to find the place where he was reading.

Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev. 13:1 ¶ And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
¶ Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Now it is necessary to find the meaning of some terms:
Rev. 17:15 ¶ And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
Dan. 7:17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
Dan. 7:24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise;

So water means people, animals are kingdoms or nations, and horns are smaller kingdoms.

The red dragon stood on the seashore and watched another animal rise out of the sea. He,too, had seven heads and he had blasphemous names written on his heads.

Definition time again:
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

So this power was pretending to be god. We need to describe the beast a bit more.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Where do we find these animals?
Dan. 7:4 “The first was like a lion
Dan. 7:5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear.
Dan. 7:6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard,

Obviously the reference is to the seventh chapter of Daniel, where we find four great empires. The tie in is obvious. This animal has the marks of all four of the beasts of Dan 7, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Rome. But we are trying to identify the seven headed beast of Rev 17.

There is a break between Rev 13 and 17. What is happening in the break?

In Rev 14 we find three angels flying with messages to proclaim, warning of the hour of God’s judgment is about to break on the earth. Then there is a scene of reaping the earth. Following this (Rev 15, 16) we find seven angels with bowls full of plagues to pour out on the earth. The time for repentance is past, the plagues are being poured out. The last plague leaves the earth a desolate wilderness.

Jer. 4:23 ¶ I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer. 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer. 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
Jer. 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Now comes one of the angels that poured out the plagues and says in effect, I want to show you what happens next.

Rev. 17:1 ¶ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
Rev. 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”

Evidently John gives assent for what happens next:

Rev. 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

We have already found where the wilderness is. It is this earth after the coming of Christ. The beast is scarlet colored and has seven heads and ten horns and instead of his heads having the names of blasphemy it has them all over it.

Rev. 17:4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,
Rev. 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”
Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
Johm is astonished at what he sees. He sees the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and dressed in luxurious apparel.

Rev. 17:7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
Rev. 17:8 ¶ “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

let me tell you about the woman and the beast that carries her. The woman and beast that carries her used to exist but doesn’t exist now, but it will exist again when it comes up out of the abyss.

This is a mystery. How can John see something that doesn’t exist? This is easily explained. Can you see, in your mind’s eye, some scene or person? It doesn’t exist except in your mind. That is what the angel was showing John. He is seeing what used to be and what will be, but all the people that were alive are now dead, killed by the brightness of the second coming of Christ.

We need to skip ahead to chapter 20 for a few minutes.

Rev. 20:1 ¶ Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev. 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


Remember the words the angel said about ascending out of the abyss? Here is the same word.

Rev. 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed.

What is the abyss? It is the earth in its chaotic state after Christ returns. Satan is imprisoned here and cannot leave. There is no one here but Satan and his angels.

Rev. 17:9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
Rev. 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

There has been considerable disussion over this text. There are at least two possible meanings. Those who think it refers to the Roman church say Rome is built on seven hills. There are at least two other possibilities. God refers to his kingdom as his holy moutain.

Is. 65:25 “The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.

But there is a different mountain.

Jer. 51:25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain

And then there is another possible meaning.

Rev. 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, pagan Rome, and papal Rome, all five have fallen as John is viewing it. The sixth one, Satan, exists as a prisoner, and the seventh has not come and he will only exist a short time.

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast that used to exist but does not exist now, will be an eighth, and is made up of the seven and goes into utter destruction.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev. 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

In order to understand this text we have to refer to Rev 20 again.

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished..
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The wicked dead are resurrected after the 1,000 years. Now Satan has people he can tempt. They see the New Jerusalem sitting there and Satan persuades the multitudes they can take the city by storm. They surround the city. But before they can attack a sublime scene appears.

Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is the final judgment. Everyone’s sins are made plain and each sees where he has rebelled against God and deserves to die.

Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev. 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Hate the whore. They see their case is hopeless, and they turn against those who have deceived them.

Rev. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is the fate of the wicked. Fire devours them. Now I want to ask you something. If something is devoured, is it there any more?

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,


This is the fate of Satan and the evil angels. But there is one question remaining, the last phrase of the verse

and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This sounds like a vengeful God who delights in torturing people who dare to disobey Him. Does this sound like a loving God?

Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal. 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How many have seen a fire in dry grass. It is very hot, but it doesn’t last long because there isn’t much substance to burn. That is the way God describes the burning of the wicked.

The word translated for ever and ever is aion aion.
Niether Greek or Hebrew had any way of expressing infinity. The words had not been invented yet, so they repeated the word aion to express a long time, meaning that it would be gone. The meanings of words change as the language develops.

[ross3421]

The problem with determining who the whore is, and when she appears is to get the setting in which she appears.
to get the picturwe have to go back several chapters to learn the identity of the beast she rides on. There are three seven headed monsters in the book of revelation.

In Rev 12 we find a red dragon.

There is pregnant woman about ready to give birth. /she has an enemy in the form of a dragon with seven heads and ten horns and a crown on each head. The word for crown is diadem, or kingly crown.

Rev. 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.
Rev. 12:4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
Rev. 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,
Rev. 12:8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.
Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

So we now know where Satan came from. He was an angel who rebelled and was cast out of heaven. What do the seven heads and the crowns mean. Seven means completeness, or the totality, of something. In other words, the total of Satan’s rule. The crowns, then, must mean seven kings in Satan’s effort to oppose God.

The next seven headed animal appears in Rev 13. Really, there is no break in the narrative. Chapters and verses were invented to make it convenient for the persons following the preacher to find the place where he was reading.

Rev. 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev. 13:1 ¶ And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
¶ Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Now it is necessary to find the meaning of some terms:
Rev. 17:15 ¶ And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
Dan. 7:17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
Dan. 7:24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise;

So water means people, animals are kingdoms or nations, and horns are smaller kingdoms.

The red dragon stood on the seashore and watched another animal rise out of the sea. He,too, had seven heads and he had blasphemous names written on his heads.

Definition time again:
John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

So this power was pretending to be god. We need to describe the beast a bit more.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Where do we find these animals?
Dan. 7:4 “The first was like a lion
Dan. 7:5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear.
Dan. 7:6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard,

Obviously the reference is to the seventh chapter of Daniel, where we find four great empires. The tie in is obvious. This animal has the marks of all four of the beasts of Dan 7, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Rome. But we are trying to identify the seven headed beast of Rev 17.

There is a break between Rev 13 and 17. What is happening in the break?

In Rev 14 we find three angels flying with messages to proclaim, warning of the hour of God’s judgment is about to break on the earth. Then there is a scene of reaping the earth. Following this (Rev 15, 16) we find seven angels with bowls full of plagues to pour out on the earth. The time for repentance is past, the plagues are being poured out. The last plague leaves the earth a desolate wilderness.

Jer. 4:23 ¶ I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer. 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer. 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
Jer. 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Now comes one of the angels that poured out the plagues and says in effect, I want to show you what happens next.

Rev. 17:1 ¶ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
Rev. 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”

Evidently John gives assent for what happens next:

Rev. 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

We have already found where the wilderness is. It is this earth after the coming of Christ. The beast is scarlet colored and has seven heads and ten horns and instead of his heads having the names of blasphemy it has them all over it.

Rev. 17:4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,
Rev. 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”
Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
Johm is astonished at what he sees. He sees the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and dressed in luxurious apparel.

Rev. 17:7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.
Rev. 17:8 ¶ “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

let me tell you about the woman and the beast that carries her. The woman and beast that carries her used to exist but doesn’t exist now, but it will exist again when it comes up out of the abyss.

This is a mystery. How can John see something that doesn’t exist? This is easily explained. Can you see, in your mind’s eye, some scene or person? It doesn’t exist except in your mind. That is what the angel was showing John. He is seeing what used to be and what will be, but all the people that were alive are now dead, killed by the brightness of the second coming of Christ.

We need to skip ahead to chapter 20 for a few minutes.

Rev. 20:1 ¶ Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev. 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.


Remember the words the angel said about ascending out of the abyss? Here is the same word.

Rev. 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed.

What is the abyss? It is the earth in its chaotic state after Christ returns. Satan is imprisoned here and cannot leave. There is no one here but Satan and his angels.

Rev. 17:9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
Rev. 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

There has been considerable disussion over this text. There are at least two possible meanings. Those who think it refers to the Roman church say Rome is built on seven hills. There are at least two other possibilities. God refers to his kingdom as his holy moutain.

Is. 65:25 “The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.

But there is a different mountain.

Jer. 51:25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain

And then there is another possible meaning.

Rev. 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, pagan Rome, and papal Rome, all five have fallen as John is viewing it. The sixth one, Satan, exists as a prisoner, and the seventh has not come and he will only exist a short time.

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The beast that used to exist but does not exist now, will be an eighth, and is made up of the seven and goes into utter destruction.

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev. 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

In order to understand this text we have to refer to Rev 20 again.

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished..
Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev. 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The wicked dead are resurrected after the 1,000 years. Now Satan has people he can tempt. They see the New Jerusalem sitting there and Satan persuades the multitudes they can take the city by storm. They surround the city. But before they can attack a sublime scene appears.

Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is the final judgment. Everyone’s sins are made plain and each sees where he has rebelled against God and deserves to die.

Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev. 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Hate the whore. They see their case is hopeless, and they turn against those who have deceived them.

Rev. 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is the fate of the wicked. Fire devours them. Now I want to ask you something. If something is devoured, is it there any more?

Rev. 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,


This is the fate of Satan and the evil angels. But there is one question remaining, the last phrase of the verse

and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This sounds like a vengeful God who delights in torturing people who dare to disobey Him. Does this sound like a loving God?

Mal. 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal. 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

How many have seen a fire in dry grass. It is very hot, but it doesn’t last long because there isn’t much substance to burn. That is the way God describes the burning of the wicked.

The word translated for ever and ever is aion aion.
Niether Greek or Hebrew had any way of expressing infinity. The words had not been invented yet, so they repeated the word aion to express a long time, meaning that it would be gone. The meanings of words change as the language develops.

Hi again,

We will try this again.......

We are pretty much in agreement until you state that the four beasts / kingdoms in Dan. 7 are Persia, Greece, Babylon, Rome ?. Yes they are the same as in Rev. 13 however they are FUTURE kingdoms which will rull the earth whereby a little horn will rise out of the fourth kingdom.

Now Daniel had a previous prophecy in chapter 2 to build upon whereby he could now understand the end time fulfillment of the four beast in Dan. 7.

Now why do we know that these are latter day kingdoms...

Let's start by asking the question how long have these four kingdoms been in on earth?

You and most claim that they are the same kingdoms as in Nebuchadnezar's image and thus have been around for centuries? But these kingdoms origin are most different for they arise from the SEA as seen in Dan. 7 and Rev. 13.

Also, the the Beast seen in Rev. 12 does not at this time rise up from the abyss as it is seen in HEAVEN. A war in heaven follows whereby it is cast into the earth as seen in verse 12 thus we then see this beast rise up out of this abyss in chapter 13.

In addition, the Beast in chapter 12 which was in heaven has had a transformation when he arises out of the abyss. We see now that there are no longer crowns upon his seven heads but that there are 10 crowns upon his horns. Also the Beast in chapter 12 is not characterized by four other beasts.

So now if we answer the question when does this Beast in chapter 13 rise up from the sea we can then answer when these four beasts appear on earth. The beast and the four beast rise up together at the same time as seen in Dan. 7 and again in Rev 13.

Alright, after the Beast is cast into the earth in chapter 12 we see that he know only has but a "short time". This short time is then referenced as 42 months in chapter 13 in which he will continue howbeit that he is now different than he was in chapter 12.

So the Beast when he rises up from the abyss alongwith four kings it will be the last 42 months of this present earth will have left.

We also see confirmation of this point as that fourth beast which will devour the first 3 ( lion, bear, leopard ). Thus these kings must be on the earth ALL at the same time.

Furthermore, as eluded to in the first vision of Nebuchadnezzar these kingdoms exsist when the God of Heaven sets up a Kingdom.

Dan. 2:44 “And in the days of these kings (speaking of the 10 kings) shall God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume ALL these kingdoms (Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron/Clay) and it shall stand for ever.

And also a time with the Antichrist (little horn) rules the earth.

Dan. 7:11,12 “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake….V12 As concerning the rest of the beasts (Lion, Bear, Leopard) they had their dominion taken away YET their lives were prolonged for a season and a time”.

An interesting note as you start plotting the timing of events. We see that it is 42 months from when these four beasts rise up together. Two years later we see when the little horn of the Beast takes power. This time reference (1.5 years) is seen in Rev. 9:5 & 15 (5 months + 1.1 years). The wrath of God, his plagues, are 1.5 years upon the earth approx the same time Noah was in the ark. For 2 years they will be eating and drinking for they think the Christ has returned,,,,,

"As in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be".

I will not comment in detail about your assumption that there is an 1000 year period but to say that if you look closely at the events which occur in this chapter you will realize that they have occurred before? How can this be?

In Christ, Mark.

[ross3421]

Correction...... Noah was only in the ark around 5 months.....

[Lion]

Ross, I tried to dissect your long post into parts and gave up because you conflated too many similar sounding prophecies all at once and it gave you mental indigestion. Let’s take it step at a time, digesting each prophecy as we go. We want to get to the whore of rev 17, but you started with Daniel 2. So let’s begin there.

Skipping all the introductory stuff King Nebuchadnezzar’d dream was this: He saw a great statue made of four metals and some pottery.

Daniel told the meaning. There were to be four kingdoms, not all at once, but in succession. Daniel said AFTER this kingdom another would arise, and so on through all four. Now kingdoms are made up of people and people don’t all die just because a king comes along and conquers an army. They just live under a different ruler. It takes time for the new government to take effect. The four empires were in Babylon, Persia, Asia Minor, and Italy. When Rome collapsed, (It was never conquered by anybody, it just fell apart.) The feet of iron and clay became the nations of modern Europe. The dream didn’t end there. The God 0f Heaven will destroy what remains of these kingdoms and set up an everlasting kingdom.

We have to recognize what ikind of person the king was. First, he was a pagan idol worshipper. He was interested in what would happen after he was gone, not theology. He would not have understood the Jewish god and would not have cared.

Many years had passed, four kings had passed off the scene and a new regent had been installed. The kingdom of Babylon had only about ten more years to go.

Daniel had a vision similar in nature with four animals instead of metals. This time, however the vision has much more detail and carries more religious information.

Dan. 7:2 Daniel said, “I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.

This was symbolic prophecy where symbols mean other than what they seem. In Rev 17:15 we find that waters mean people and nations. A wind stirs up troubles among nations.

Dan. 7:3 “And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another.

This is a replay of the king’s dream with more detail.

Dan. 7:4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.

This was Babylon the wings signify swifness in battle. It is notable thaat winged lions are on the gates of Babylon today. Babylon ruled from 605-536 BC

Dan. 7:5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’

This was Medo-Persia, ruling from 536-331 BC. The lumbering walk of a bear was typical of the ponderous walk of the Persian war elephants.

Dan. 7:6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Alexander the great conquered the civilized world in three and a half years an wept because there were no more worlds to conquer. swiftess was the meaning of the four wings. Alexander died at 33 wthout an heir and his four leading generals Selucus, Lysimachus, Cassander, and Ptolemy divided up the empire. 331-168 BC

Dan. 7:7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. Pagan Rome ruled from 168 BC, but frll apart about 476 AD when pagan tribes invaded Rome.

Dan. 7:8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

This was the papacy.

While Daniel was wondering whatwas about to happen the scene changed a judgement was taking place. The god of heaven took his seat.

Dan. 7:9 ¶ “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
Dan. 7:10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

This is the final judgment.

Dan. 7:11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

Dan. 7:13 ¶ “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
Dan. 7:14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

The son of man. Jesus referred to himself as the son of man. Jesus will be given dominion over the earth at the last judgment.

Daniel was concerned about the meaning of the
horns.

Dan. 7:15 ¶ “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
Dan. 7:16 “I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
Dan. 7:17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
Dan. 7:18 ‘But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

Daniel was worried about the fourth beast. it seemed so feirce and destructive, so he asked about it.

In the interest of saving space I will suummarize what Daniel was told: he wanted too know about the fourth beast, especially about the ten horns and the little one that uprooted the other three, the one that made war with the saints until the saints possessed the kingdom.

He was told that ten kings would arise out ofthis kingdom and another different one would arise, would subdue three kings.

History records that the pope was having problems with king Odoacer who had interfered with the Catholic beliefs. Odoacer was Aryan, who believed Christ was not divine. The pope wanted to get rid of Odoacer, but he had no army, so he apealed to Zeno, emperor of the eastern Roman enpire. Zeno was happy to oblige and sent an army to invade Italy from what is now Yugoslavia. Odoacer was killed and Theodoric took the throne, but Theodoric was Aryan and ordered the pope into exile in Constantinople. The new emperor, Justinian, organized an army and fleet under Belisarius. After a five year war, during which he defeated the Vandals in north Africa he was able to kill Theodoric ad the pope was free. He had uprooted three kings with no army. He was now free to enforce his dogma on all Christians. The year was 538.

It is time to evaluate conditions. Printing would not be invented for another 900 years. Any part of scripture had to be copied by hand. Most people coudn’t read, including most priests. Dogma was king. But a few who could read copied parts of the Bible and went as traders all over the area. The pope and priests wanted to control religion so they killed any trader who was found with any copies of scripture.

Dan. 7:25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The pope and priests persecuted anyone who dared to teach from the scriptures. But some priests, Jon Hus and Martin Luther spoke out against the church. Gutenberg had invented prnting and the first book was the Bible, in German.

By 1793 the French revolted against the emperor. It was not so much against the emperor as against the church and organized religion. They invented a new calendar with a ten day week and five extra holidays. Napoleon was proclaimed emperor. On Feb 20, 1798, the French general Bertheir took the po[pe PiusVI prisoner and he died in exile in France. Bertheir confiscated over 200 wagon loads of gold and jewels and art objects from Rome. By 1815 all the papal income from three states in Italy known as the Papal states was gone.

Dan. 7:26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
Dan. 7:27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

The decree of heaven is yet to be executed.

We have not discussed verse 25 yet.

Dan. 7:25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High

The pope claims to be infallible when he speaks Ex Cathedra (from the chair), literally as the voice of God.

and wear down the saints of the Highest One

The papacy caused the death of millions of martyrs.

and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law;

Open any Catholic catechism and you will find they have changed the ten commandments by dropping the second, prohibiting bowing to images, shorteningthe fourth, (they call it the third), and dividing the tenth to preserve the ten.

and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

That is three and a half years of persecution. That isn’t long, but we just accounted to a long period from 538 to 1798, 1,260 years. 3 1/2 years at 360 days a year is 1260.

This is getting too long and we have not discussed tthe whore yet. Next post we will take that up.

[Lion]

Ross 3421
When we left off our study of Daniel we had just discovered that the pope had lost most of his income from the papal states and was a virtual prisoner in the vatican.

Now we turn our attention to the Revelation, chapter 12.

We see our first symbol.

Rev. 12:1 ¶ A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Rev. 12:2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

A woman clothed with the sun. Really the glory of the sun. She is a beautiful woman in contrast to the drunken one in chapter 17. She is standing on the moon, a symbol of the reflected or shadow of the old sacrificial temple or tabernacle service. She has a crown with twelve stars. This is not a kingly crown, but a stephanos, a laurel wreath which the Olympic winners were given. The twelve stars probably represent the twelve apostles.

She is in the active labor of childbirth, in pain of delivery. But she has an enemy, a red monster with seven heads and ten horns and seven diadems on his heads. The dragon swept away a third of the stars of heaven (angels). He stood befor the woman to devour her child as soon as it was born.

This reminds us if the birth of Christ when Herod destroyed the children of Bethlehem.

The church is likened to the daughter of Zion, a chaste vrgin.

Her child was taken to heaven, but the dragon persecuted the woman for 1,260 days, the same period the pope ruled before he was taken prisoner in 1798.

Our attention is directed to heaven where there was a war going on and the dragon, the devil and Satan was cast out of heaven and his angels were cast out with him.

The dragon persecuted the woman,
Rev. 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Rev. 12:15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.
Rev. 12:16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

The papal armies scoured Europe to root out those who dared to dissent from Rome. But there was something else going on. a new continent had been discovered, and the pilgrims were now in a land of freedom The earth had swallowed up the flood and the armies of Rome could not reach them. The dragon wasn’t beat yet. He persuaded Philip of Spain to send an armada against England. If he had won, England would be Catholic and the United States history would be different. But the armada was wrecked by a storm and America became the land of the free.

But our story doesn’t end because the chapter ends. Chapters were invented to help people find the texts easily. Rev 13 begins: And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.

The dragon was watching a beast rise up out of the sea. It had seven heads and ten horns but the crowns are on the horns now. Remember the explanation of Dan 7? Dan. 7:24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise. So this beast appears LATER than the fourth beast of Dan 7, but he has some of the same appearances. Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Notice what the dragon did. The dragon (Satan) gave this beast his power, throne and great athority.

This beast had many of the same parts as the four beasts of Daniel 7. It seems God intentionally tied the two prophecies together. If we can identify this beast, we can find out who is behind the throne.

Rev. 13:3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

The pope was taken prisoner and died in exile. His successor was also exiled and subected to brainwashing for years. When he was finally allowed to return to Rome the power of the papacy was but a shadow of its former self, But in 1929 Mussolini and a cardinal signed a treaty granting the papacy status as an independent nation. The deadly wound was healed.

Rev. 13:4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

Who is able to make war with a church?

Rev. 13:5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

And here is the the fourth time that period of time has been mentioned. It must have been important to mention it. There are three more times it occurs, Dan 12:7 and Rev 11:1,2., seven tmes in all, always referring to a time of persecution. We discovered that the papacy was a persecuting power and it came to power for 1260 years.

Skipping down the chapter, since our subject is the whore of chapter 17, we notice that the beast of ch 13 wants to be worshpped, we find that the seven headed beast teams up with a two horned beast who forces everyone to worship the seven headed animal
or be killed. He forces everyone to be marked or be killed.

There is another seven headed beast in ch 17. but we are not ready to discuss him just yet.

In ch 14 we find the Lamb of God (Jesus) with 144,000 saints who are the redeemed, with God’s name written on their foreheads. This is in contrast to the mark of the beast.

Suddenly an angel flies inthe sky shouting with a loud voice “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.” This is in contrast to the teaching of evolution which is so prevalent today.

Immediately another angel follows saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

This is a stern warning against receiving the mark of the beast or worshipping his image, because those who do will receive the plagues.

The next chapters, 15 though 17 portray the pouring out of the seven plagues and what happens immediately following.

John sees a group of people who have gtten the victory over the beast and his image, singing the song of Moses and the Lamb.

The tabernacle of the testmony is seen open in heaven and seven angels make ready to pour out the plagues on the earth and the building was filled with smoke so no one could enter till the plagues were finished.

The plagues begin.
1. a noisome and painful sore comes on all who have recieved the mark of the beast.

2. the sea becomes like the blood of a dead man and all life in the sea dies.

3. All the rivers and springs turn bloody.

4. The sun begins to scorch men with fire.

5. The seat (capital city) of the beast becomes dark.

6. The great river Euphrates was dried up that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rivers never have been a barrier to armies. This must mean that the Islamic nations collapse. The term kings of the east could possibly refer to the coming of Christ.

Rev. 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;

We know who the dragon is, The devil and Satan. The beast is Roman catholicism. The false prophet is apostate Protestantism.

Rev. 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Rev. 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.
Rev. 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-magedon.

The term Armageddon has evoked many speculative images of a final climactic battle between nations. However, those images cannot convey the final conflict between God and man. God will win the battle.

7. the seventh plague will be when great hailstones fall, every stone about a hundred pounds each. This is unimaginable. weapons of warfare will be useless.

Job 38:22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Job 38:23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?

Rev. 16:17 ¶ Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”
Rev. 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
Rev. 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
Rev. 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

The great earthquake of Dec 26, 2004 and the resuting tsunami was magnitude 9 on the richter scale. Another 8.7 in the same area in the last few days will be small compared this earthquake. In this one the mountains and islands will disappear. No one will be left alive on panet earth.

Rev. 20:1 ¶ Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev. 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

If there is no one left alive on the earth, the ruined planet will be the home of Satan and his angels for a thousand years. He cannot tempt anyone because they are all dead. Now we can understand the language of Rev 17.

Rev. 17:1 ¶ Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
Rev. 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”

This scene is immdiately following chapter16. The angel is apparently the one who poured out the seventh plague.

Rev. 17:3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness;

Looking for the word wilderness we find this description by Jeremiah.

Jer. 4:23 ¶ I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer. 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer. 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man,
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
Jer. 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

This is the scene the revelator sees in the wilderness. in rev 17, he describes the woman

“and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

This is the third animal with seven heads. The other two had crowns on heads or horns, but this one has no crowns anywhere.

Rev. 17:4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,
Rev. 17:5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”
Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

The angel asks, “Why are you so amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.”

Rev. 17:8 ¶ “The beast that you saw was,

It used to exist

and is not,

It doesn’t exist as you are looking at it.

How can he see something that doesn’t exist? Have you visualized some person you were familiar with perhaps a grandparent? The person doesn’t exist except in your mind.

and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

We referred to the abyss a bit ago where the dragon was chained. The abyss is the earth after the second coming of Christ.

And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that was and is not and will come.

How can this be? There is a second resurrection after the 1,000 years.

Rev. 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.

Rev. 20:7 ¶ When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev. 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

Rev. 17:9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

There has been considerable speculation on the meaning of this text. Some say it refers to the seven hills of Rome. There is no doubt that it refers to the papacy, but it is probably more than that. God refers to his kingedom as a holy mountain,

Is. 65:25 “The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the LORD.

But there is another kind of mountain.

Jer. 51:25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

So this is another meaning to mountain.

Rev. 17:10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

Seven means complete, the whole range of things, so seven kings means all the kings in a group.
five are fallen. Babylon, Medo=Persia, Grecia, Pagan Rome and papal Rome, all have fallen as we see the beast, Satan is, and the other is not yet come.

Rev. 17:11 “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

The resurrected horde which comes up in he second resurrection is the eighth kingdom,made up of all seven and will be destroyed.

Rev. 17:12 “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
Rev. 17:13 “These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
Rev. 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Satan marshals the vast throng against the New Jerusalem, but suddenly a great white throne appears.

Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The wicked see their hopeless situation and turn on those who have deceved them and try to destroy them.

Rev. 17:16 “And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.
Rev. 17:17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.
Rev. 17:18 “The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

[ross3421]

Ross, I tried to dissect your long post into parts and gave up because you conflated too many similar sounding prophecies all at once and it gave you mental indigestion. Let’s take it step at a time, digesting each prophecy as we go. We want to get to the whore of rev 17, but you started with Daniel 2. So let’s begin there.

Skipping all the introductory stuff King Nebuchadnezzar’d dream was this: He saw a great statue made of four metals and some pottery.

Daniel told the meaning. There were to be four kingdoms, not all at once, but in succession. Daniel said AFTER this kingdom another would arise, and so on through all four. Now kingdoms are made up of people and people don’t all die just because a king comes along and conquers an army. They just live under a different ruler. It takes time for the new government to take effect. The four empires were in Babylon, Persia, Asia Minor, and Italy. When Rome collapsed, (It was never conquered by anybody, it just fell apart.) The feet of iron and clay became the nations of modern Europe. The dream didn’t end there. The God 0f Heaven will destroy what remains of these kingdoms and set up an everlasting kingdom.

We have to recognize what ikind of person the king was. First, he was a pagan idol worshipper. He was interested in what would happen after he was gone, not theology. He would not have understood the Jewish god and would not have cared.

Many years had passed, four kings had passed off the scene and a new regent had been installed. The kingdom of Babylon had only about ten more years to go.

Daniel had a vision similar in nature with four animals instead of metals. This time, however the vision has much more detail and carries more religious information.

Dan. 7:2 Daniel said, “I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.

This was symbolic prophecy where symbols mean other than what they seem. In Rev 17:15 we find that waters mean people and nations. A wind stirs up troubles among nations.

Dan. 7:3 “And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another.

This is a replay of the king’s dream with more detail.

Dan. 7:4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.

This was Babylon the wings signify swifness in battle. It is notable thaat winged lions are on the gates of Babylon today. Babylon ruled from 605-536 BC

Dan. 7:5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’

This was Medo-Persia, ruling from 536-331 BC. The lumbering walk of a bear was typical of the ponderous walk of the Persian war elephants.

Dan. 7:6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

Alexander the great conquered the civilized world in three and a half years an wept because there were no more worlds to conquer. swiftess was the meaning of the four wings. Alexander died at 33 wthout an heir and his four leading generals Selucus, Lysimachus, Cassander, and Ptolemy divided up the empire. 331-168 BC

Dan. 7:7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. Pagan Rome ruled from 168 BC, but frll apart about 476 AD when pagan tribes invaded Rome.

Dan. 7:8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

This was the papacy.

While Daniel was wondering whatwas about to happen the scene changed a judgement was taking place. The god of heaven took his seat.

Dan. 7:9 ¶ “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
Dan. 7:10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

This is the final judgment.

Dan. 7:11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

Dan. 7:13 ¶ “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
Dan. 7:14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

The son of man. Jesus referred to himself as the son of man. Jesus will be given dominion over the earth at the last judgment.

Daniel was concerned about the meaning of the
horns.

Dan. 7:15 ¶ “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
Dan. 7:16 “I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
Dan. 7:17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
Dan. 7:18 ‘But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’

Daniel was worried about the fourth beast. it seemed so feirce and destructive, so he asked about it.

In the interest of saving space I will suummarize what Daniel was told: he wanted too know about the fourth beast, especially about the ten horns and the little one that uprooted the other three, the one that made war with the saints until the saints possessed the kingdom.

He was told that ten kings would arise out ofthis kingdom and another different one would arise, would subdue three kings.

History records that the pope was having problems with king Odoacer who had interfered with the Catholic beliefs. Odoacer was Aryan, who believed Christ was not divine. The pope wanted to get rid of Odoacer, but he had no army, so he apealed to Zeno, emperor of the eastern Roman enpire. Zeno was happy to oblige and sent an army to invade Italy from what is now Yugoslavia. Odoacer was killed and Theodoric took the throne, but Theodoric was Aryan and ordered the pope into exile in Constantinople. The new emperor, Justinian, organized an army and fleet under Belisarius. After a five year war, during which he defeated the Vandals in north Africa he was able to kill Theodoric ad the pope was free. He had uprooted three kings with no army. He was now free to enforce his dogma on all Christians. The year was 538.

It is time to evaluate conditions. Printing would not be invented for another 900 years. Any part of scripture had to be copied by hand. Most people coudn’t read, including most priests. Dogma was king. But a few who could read copied parts of the Bible and went as traders all over the area. The pope and priests wanted to control religion so they killed any trader who was found with any copies of scripture.

Dan. 7:25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

The pope and priests persecuted anyone who dared to teach from the scriptures. But some priests, Jon Hus and Martin Luther spoke out against the church. Gutenberg had invented prnting and the first book was the Bible, in German.

By 1793 the French revolted against the emperor. It was not so much against the emperor as against the church and organized religion. They invented a new calendar with a ten day week and five extra holidays. Napoleon was proclaimed emperor. On Feb 20, 1798, the French general Bertheir took the po[pe PiusVI prisoner and he died in exile in France. Bertheir confiscated over 200 wagon loads of gold and jewels and art objects from Rome. By 1815 all the papal income from three states in Italy known as the Papal states was gone.

Dan. 7:26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
Dan. 7:27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

The decree of heaven is yet to be executed.

We have not discussed verse 25 yet.

Dan. 7:25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High

The pope claims to be infallible when he speaks Ex Cathedra (from the chair), literally as the voice of God.

and wear down the saints of the Highest One

The papacy caused the death of millions of martyrs.

and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law;

Open any Catholic catechism and you will find they have changed the ten commandments by dropping the second, prohibiting bowing to images, shorteningthe fourth, (they call it the third), and dividing the tenth to preserve the ten.

and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

That is three and a half years of persecution. That isn’t long, but we just accounted to a long period from 538 to 1798, 1,260 years. 3 1/2 years at 360 days a year is 1260.

This is getting too long and we have not discussed tthe whore yet. Next post we will take that up.

Lion,

You insist on saying that the beasts / kingdoms in Dan 7 are past and or current. They are not, they are FUTURE kingdoms. We cannot always try to fit prophecy into the past or present to what our mind can grasp. The reasons why these are in the FUTURE ;

The four kingdoms rise up together.

Scriptures clearly support this fact. For if it can be shown that they rise up TOGETHER than they cannot be past or current kingdoms thus not who you claim.

Da 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

These beasts arrival are different than in Dan. 2 where Daniel saw one beast rise then another afterward arises. Below, Rev. 13 speaks of the same reference to that of Dan. 7 with the 4 beasts rising up TOGETHER as part of a larger Beast.

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

They arise up from the SEA ( Bottomless Pit ).

This is not symbolic and does not mean people. Daniel states "sea" not "waters" so do not interchange these words. The sea is a reference to the "BOTTOMLESS PIT". These 4 beasts are literally demonic and are under the control of this larger Beast. One needs to understand that....

As in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be

What happened in these days, a demonic indwelling just as it will be prior to Christ's return. This is seen in Rev. 9 & 16 whereby we see this pit opened and spirits of devils come up upon the earth.

The sea being referenced to this "pit" and not literal waters or people is supported by Daniel's following statement which he confims not only did these four beast arise from the SEA but from also "out of the earth". Did Daniel contradict himself ? No. Sea, out of the earth are the same as from below the bottomless pit.

Daniel saw this vision by night.

Why did Daniel see this vision as by a literal night ? Night is referenced as darkness", evil, the opposite of light.

Da 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

Da 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

Da 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Again, Daniel emphasizes "night" when speaking of the dreadful fourth evil beast.

Da 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

But also what happens when this bottomless pit is opened ? Well what do you know, his kingdom is full of what ? LITERAL DARKNESS.

Re 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Daniel's states these four kingdoms are FUTURE.

We see that this fourth beast with the ten horns subdues 3 kings. This is not 3 of its own 10 horns as commonly taught but of the other 3 kings ( Lion, Bear, Leopard ). For the fourth beast to sudue the other 3 kings they must all be on the earth together at the same time. This is supported by Daniel's prophecy in relation to Nebuchadnezzer as the "great tree" which is slain however returns in the roots of the fourth kingdom.

Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Da 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first
( Lion) , and he shall subdue three kings ( Lion, Bear, Leopard ).

Also, more support that these kingdoms are upon the earth together during the time of Christ's return. Notice these 3 subdued kings lives still remain until the end.

Da 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

As I previously pointed out THE Beast which arises out of the sea has only 42 months remaining. Within 2 years the fourth king has subdued the other 3 kings and now this fourth king is in charge. This time reference of 1.5 years (season and time) is seen in after the bottomless pit is opened Rev. 9:5,15.

It sure is nice how scripture aligns itself........

More convincingly is that Daniel states that in the time of these four kingdoms God will set up a kingdom.

Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings ( ten kings) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms ( Lion, Bear, Leopard, Fourth Beast), and it shall stand for ever.

Prophecy understood is not the events of the past but of the future. You and many who will read this information are trapped in a box which has been created by today's misteachings. Jump out.

In Christ, Mark.

[Lion]

I’m sorry , Ross Let’s go back to Daniel 2 and read what It says there

Daniel was about to explain to the king the meaning of his dream.

Dan. 2:29 “As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place.

Notice what Daniel says. All this was to be in the future as far the king was concerned.

Notice what Daniel says:

Dan. 2:39 “AFTER you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, THEN another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
Dan. 2:40 “THEN there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.

This was describing a SEQUENCE OF EVENTS.

History records that Babylon was replaced by Medo-Persia, which was replaced by Grecia, which was replaced by Rome and the countries of modern Europe.

Daniel had a vision covering the same events, with animals but in more detail, the same four empires, IN SEQUENCE, NOT AT THE SAME TIME.

We didn’t mention it before, but in Daniel 8, there is another sequence. Daniel was still living under Babylonian rule, but that was about to change.

Dan. 8:1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of Belshazzar the king a vision appeared to me, Daniel, subsequent to the one which appeared to me previously.
Dan. 8:2 I looked in the vision, and while I was looking I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam; and I looked in the vision and I myself was beside the Ulai Canal.
Dan. 8:3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
Dan. 8:4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
Dan. 8:5 ¶ While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
Dan. 8:6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath.
Dan. 8:7 I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his power.
Dan. 8:8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.

Notice this: The goat was so swift he didn’t touch the ground. Four wings on the leopard which is a swift animal. The leopard had four heads. The horn was broken and four came up from the stump.

But there is more.

Dan. 8:20 “The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan. 8:21 “The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan. 8:22 “The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.

There is no question about it. These four animals in Daniel 7 are SQUENTIAL, NOT SIMULANEOUS. TO PROVE IT, DANIEL 8 NAMES THEM.

[ross3421]

I’m sorry , Ross Let’s go back to Daniel 2 and read what It says there

Daniel was about to explain to the king the meaning of his dream.

Dan. 2:29 “As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place.

Notice what Daniel says. All this was to be in the future as far the king was concerned.

Notice what Daniel says:

Dan. 2:39 “AFTER you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, THEN another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
Dan. 2:40 “THEN there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.

This was describing a SEQUENCE OF EVENTS.

History records that Babylon was replaced by Medo-Persia, which was replaced by Grecia, which was replaced by Rome and the countries of modern Europe.

Daniel had a vision covering the same events, with animals but in more detail, the same four empires, IN SEQUENCE, NOT AT THE SAME TIME.

We didn’t mention it before, but in Daniel 8, there is another sequence. Daniel was still living under Babylonian rule, but that was about to change.

Dan. 8:1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of Belshazzar the king a vision appeared to me, Daniel, subsequent to the one which appeared to me previously.
Dan. 8:2 I looked in the vision, and while I was looking I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam; and I looked in the vision and I myself was beside the Ulai Canal.
Dan. 8:3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
Dan. 8:4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
Dan. 8:5 ¶ While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes.
Dan. 8:6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath.
Dan. 8:7 I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his power.
Dan. 8:8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.

Notice this: The goat was so swift he didn’t touch the ground. Four wings on the leopard which is a swift animal. The leopard had four heads. The horn was broken and four came up from the stump.

But there is more.

Dan. 8:20 “The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
Dan. 8:21 “The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan. 8:22 “The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.

There is no question about it. These four animals in Daniel 7 are SQUENTIAL, NOT SIMULANEOUS. TO PROVE IT, DANIEL 8 NAMES THEM.

Lion,

When do these animals appear on the scene in the prophecy in chapter 8 ?

You are saying that the goat and the leopard are one in the same however is this correct. NO. The four animals do not appear on the scene until the "latter time" as are the ones which stand up out of the nation.

If you state that the goat and leopard are the same then who are these four kingdoms in the verse below. In each the previous named kingdoms are past ?

Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms (Lion, Bear, Leopard, Dragon) shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Now below we see this dragon coming to power..

Da 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Also, these four animals do not appear until "the winds of heaven" . This is the same as the event above....

Da 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones (Lion, Bear, Leopard, Dragon) toward the FOUR WINDS OF HEAVEN.

Again the dragon (little horn) comes to power...

Da 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Da 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the FOUR WINDS OF HEAVEN strove upon the great sea.
Da 7:3 And four great beasts (Lion, Bear, Leopard, Dragon) came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

The kingdoms in Dan 2 are NOT the same as in Dan. 7 ! Those in Dan. 2 were current day or shortly to occur with Nebuchadnezzer the king of Babylon likened unto the future king of Babylon.

In reality, Dan. 2 & 8 only speaks of 3 of these kingdoms ;

Gold / Head - Babylon
Silver / Arms / Ram - Media / Persia
Brass / Belly / Goat - Grecia
Iron / Clay - ??????

The fourth kingdom is never named ! It is a kingdom of the DEVIL, it is a beast rising from the abyss in the latter days. It is the one with four beasts, seven heads, and ten horns. It is not named because it has no name !

Daniel even states the vision in chapter 2 will be for the latter days.

Da 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the LATTER DAYS. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Confirmed by the vision of the fourth beast...

Da 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Da 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Da 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Further confirmation is the mixture of Iron and Clay. Do you know what this means???

Da 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

First we see the iron mixed with "potters" clay. So this kingdom is mixed with people the seed of men as this clay represents God's creation.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

However this iron then becomes mixed with "miry clay". Is this the same as potters clay? Why would Daniel now call it miry ? And who is the "they" which shall mingle with the seed of men? I think we have seen this before somewhere.....

We see the this type of clay is found where ? A horrible pit.

Ps 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

There is absolutely not doubt that "miry" represent demonic, no doubt! As I pointed out this fourth kingdom is a future and demonic and is seen in Rev. 9 & 16.

Who are "they" which shall mingle with the seed of men???

Re 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

As in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be....

Lion, you are still in the box........

In Christ, Mark

[Lion]

Ross
You insist on saying that the beasts / kingdoms in Dan 7 are past and or current. They are not, they are FUTURE kingdoms. We cannot always try to fit prophecy into the past or present to what our mind can grasp. The reasons why these are in the FUTURE ;

The four kingdoms rise up together.

Scriptures clearly support this fact. For if it can be shown that they rise up TOGETHER than they cannot be past or current kingdoms thus not who you claim.
LION
Let me refer to HISTORY
We have to agree that Daniel existed in Babylon.(Thou art this head of gold) and the lion with eagle’s wings. Babylon, existed from 605 to 536 BC It was overthrown by an alliance of Media and Persia That matches the chest and arms of silver, the bear of Dan 7:4, and the ram of Dan 8:6. It lasted from 536 to 331 BC. The belly and thighs of brass (Dan 2:39b) represent Grecia (not Greece) It corresponded to the leopard with four heads and four wings (Dan 7:6) and the shaggy goat that was so fast he didn’t touch the ground (Dan 8:5) it lasted from 331 to 168 BC. The legs of Iron (Dan 2:33) the terrible beast (Dan 7:7) lasted from 168 BC to 476 AD for the pagan phase and from 476 to the present day.
Summarizing
Gold head, Lion, 605 BC to 536 BC
silver,bear ram , 536 BC to 331 BC
Brass, Leopard,shaggy goat 331BC to 168 BC
Iron, dragon, 168 BC to 476 AD
little horn of Dan 7 and 8 476 AD to present time.
These are dates that can be verified from history.

Thiis information was copied from google.
When Nineveh was destroyed, B.C. 606, Nabopolassar, the viceroy of Babylonia, who seems to have been of Chaldean descent, made himself independent. His son Nebuchadrezzar (Nabu-kudur-uzur), after defeating the Egyptians at Carchemish, succeeded him as king, B.C. 604, and founded the Babylonian empire. He strongly fortified Babylon, and adorned it with palaces and other buildings.

His son, Evil-merodach, who succeeded him in B.C. 561, was murdered after a reign of two years. The last monarch of the Babylonian empire was Nabonidus (Nabu-nahid), B.C. 555-538, whose eldest son, Belshazzar (Bilu-sar-uzur), is mentioned in several inscriptions. Babylon was captured by Cyrus, B.C. 538, and though it revolted more than once in later years, it never succeeded in maintaining its independence.
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Christian Answers Network HOMEPAGE and DIRECTORYPlease report any
Medo-Persia
(From Forerunner Commentary)
Daniel 2:39(Go to this verse :: Verse pop-up)


The idea of inferiority seems to pass to the succeeding empires as well. But in what way was Medo-Persia inferior?

Medo-Persia controlled a larger territory than did Babylon, so it was certainly not inferior in political or military might. Even before the fall of Babylon, Cyrus had defeated the wealthy Croesus, king of Lydia in Asia Minor (546 BC). After victories in central Iran and in Phoenicia, he conquered Babylon in 539 BC, and his son Cambyses overthrew Egypt and Libya in 525 BC. At its height the Persian Empire was nearly double the size of Babylon.

It did, however, have a problem with internal unity. Cyrus, a Persian, initiated the growth of the empire by usurping the Median throne with the help of the Median nobility. The empire, from this point on, was dominated by Persians, or as the Bible says, the "bear . . . was raised up on one side" (Daniel 7:5). The two arms of the image symbolize this division.

Also, each time an emperor died, severe struggles erupted over succession to the throne. Fortunately, mostly strong and capable rulers won these struggles, especially during its first century, and kept the empire whole for over two hundred years. Only the superior might of Alexander's Macedonian army spelled its downfall.


12) Hellenistic Period ( 330 - 30 BCE )

Hellenistic Period covers from the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BCE, to the death of Cleopatra and annexation of Egypt by the Romans in 30 BCE. It was the age of many Kings who were former generals of Alexander. Kings constantly fought with each other for territory, wealth and glory. Many kings died at the battlefields fighting against their rivals. These frequent wars came to weaken the Hellenistic kingdoms, and they were all absorbed by first Parthian kings and later by the Romans in the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE.
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Ross
Prophecy understood is not the events of the past but of the future. You and many who will read this information are trapped in a box which has been created by today's misteachings. Jump out.

In Christ, Mark.
------------
Lion
The purpose of prophecy is not necessarily to foretell the future, but to give us some knowledge of Gods plan.

In the annals of human history the play and counterplay of nations is made to appear as if controlled by man’s ambition, power or caprice, but in the word of God, the curtain is drawn aside and we behold the guiding hand of God.

It is true that the prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation some events are yet future, but many are happening before our eyes. I beg you to consider carefully what I have presented.

[aterry762]

I don't believe its theologically or eschatologically reasonable to identify any one body as the Whore of Rev 17.

Roman Catholicism tends to be an easy target, due to its size and global scope, but this body with have to bail out on its foundational teachings. Truth be told, at this point in time, liberal Protestantism is a more likely candidate.

The Whore of Rev. 17 will likely be an analgum of world religions, excluding orthodox Judiasm, and orthodox Christianity (I'm not speaking of the Orthodox Church alone, but those that dwell under the umbrella of Biblical orthodoxy).

In short the Whore of Revelation 17 will be comprised, more of people, and not denominations.






Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

[Lion]

Aterry762
I don't believe its theologically or eschatologically reasonable to identify any one body as the Whore of Rev 17.
------------
Lion
Don’t be surprised, I agree with you. Tbe whore is an amalgam of all false religions from the beginning of time.
-----------
Aterry762
Roman Catholicism tends to be an easy target, due to its size and global scope, but this body with have to bail out on its foundational teachings. Truth be told, at this point in time, liberal Protestantism is a more likely candidate.

The Whore of Rev. 17 will likely be an analgum of world religions, excluding orthodox Judiasm, and orthodox Christianity (I'm not speaking of the Orthodox Church alone, but those that dwell under the umbrella of Biblical orthodoxy).

In short the Whore of Revelation 17 will be comprised, more of people, and not denominations.
------------
Lion
Again, agreement, in part. Rome is part of it and apostate protestantism is part. The whore is seen during the milenium and will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

[ross3421]

Aterry762
I don't believe its theologically or eschatologically reasonable to identify any one body as the Whore of Rev 17.
------------
Lion
Don’t be surprised, I agree with you. Tbe whore is an amalgam of all false religions from the beginning of time.
-----------
Aterry762
Roman Catholicism tends to be an easy target, due to its size and global scope, but this body with have to bail out on its foundational teachings. Truth be told, at this point in time, liberal Protestantism is a more likely candidate.

The Whore of Rev. 17 will likely be an analgum of world religions, excluding orthodox Judiasm, and orthodox Christianity (I'm not speaking of the Orthodox Church alone, but those that dwell under the umbrella of Biblical orthodoxy).

In short the Whore of Revelation 17 will be comprised, more of people, and not denominations.
------------
Lion
Again, agreement, in part. Rome is part of it and apostate protestantism is part. The whore is seen during the milenium and will be destroyed in the lake of fire.

Lion / Aterry 672

You are both way off course on this issue...... The WHORE is not a religion.

Re 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The WHORE which is a woman IS A CITY !!!

The city is JERUSALEM, not a revieved Rome nor a world system.

The bible only has spoken of one such city as a whore, Jerusalem.

Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a WHORE.

Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4

Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a whore and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.

Babylon is the state of end time Jerusalem. History repeats again.

Jerusalem however will represent more than just a city, this is where an end time king will reign. Does this story sound familiar?

The Woman

Is clearly shown in scripture to be a literal city. The city has all the chacteristics of the the new Jerusalem which we see coming from heaven later in chapter 21 (i.e precious stones, gold ect..). Note this woman also arrayed in red which are the worship offerings of fine linen from the inhabinants as it was in the past. The city has all to sustain life as seen in chapter 18.

The scarlet colored Beast

This is the "beast from the earth" which will speak great things for he is the king of this city. We notice that he has arrayed himself in scarlet as well signifying his royalty as it was in the past. We see Christ clothed in a scarlet robe prior to his crusifiction and in a vesture of blood ( scarlet ) upon his return. This red color has zero significance to Rome but to signify a king. This king is the same as the "little horn".

For who does lucifer claim to be ? A pope ? A world dictator ? No, the most high Jesus Christ.

The ten horns

This is a false representation of the ten tribes of the house of Israel which align themselves with this beast. The other 2 tribes are the horns of the king this beast of the earth which are the tribes of house of Judah, his roots. Together they represent the 144,000 which reign with the true Christ. Obviously as with the beast, they are false. These will be identified with a MARK in their foreheads. There will be 10 kings one for each tribe which will rule their portion of land around this city.

The seven heads

This encompasses the gentile following of this beast which are the supposed believers (seven candlesticks). They will be identified with a MARK in their right hands the so called unbelievers have been destroyed upon the return of the beast. Of course those which receive the MARK of the false king are the real unbelievers as we as believers will be martyred. We as belivers will receive a MARK from the true God.

The waters

This represents ALL the inhabinats of the earth, Jew and Gentile which have aligned themselves with this king. If you notive in chapter 18 it is the sabbath day and they have come to worship. What did God say about a certain sabbath day in the future....... destruction.

I hope you start seeing the correlation between this Whore kingdom which Lucifer sets up as a deception verses the true kingdom are God has made. It will be such a strong delusion....

There is no world religon system, one world order dictator with a micro chip ect..... You need to understand Satan who claims to be God will replicate his kingdom and nowhere in God's kingdom will there be a certain religion nor high tech micro chip control devices. You are being mislead by the false teaching of the day.

For additional SCRIPTURAL evidence of this couterfeit, see the attached.

In Christ, Mark

"study to show thyself approved"

[Lion]

Ross, part of what you say is true, but only part. Prophetic statements often liken a system to a city. For instance:

Rev. 11:1 ¶ Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

This is the introduction to a symbolic prophecy It was not the temple in Jerusalem because the temple had been destroyed in AD70 and John was writing in AD 96 and the Jews had been forbidden to set foot in Jerusalem on pain of instant death. It is a symbolic prophecy.

Rev. 11:2 “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

The tine of forty two months is also symbolic,

Rev. 11:3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The two witnesses are the old and new testaments. The twelve hundred and sixty days and the forty two months refer to the 1260 years of papal persecution from 538 to 1798.

Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The two witnesses and lampstands are the light to illuminate the earth with the light of the gospel.

Rev. 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

This is a SYMBOLIC prophecy and must be interpreted as SYMBOLIC.

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

MYSTICALLY is the clue here. The lord was crucified outside Jerusalem, but mystically, the mass crucifies the son of God afresh when the priest transforms the wafer into the body of Christ.

So your entire post is thrown in the trash heap.

[Jude3b]

Ross, part of what you say is true, but only part. Prophetic statements often liken a system to a city. For instance:

Rev. 11:1 ¶ Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

This is the introduction to a symbolic prophecy It was not the temple in Jerusalem because the temple had been destroyed in AD70 and John was writing in AD 96 and the Jews had been forbidden to set foot in Jerusalem on pain of instant death. It is a symbolic prophecy.

Rev. 11:2 “Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

The tine of forty two months is also symbolic,

Rev. 11:3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

The two witnesses are the old and new testaments. The twelve hundred and sixty days and the forty two months refer to the 1260 years of papal persecution from 538 to 1798.

Rev. 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

The two witnesses and lampstands are the light to illuminate the earth with the light of the gospel.

Rev. 11:5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

This is a SYMBOLIC prophecy and must be interpreted as SYMBOLIC.

Rev. 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

MYSTICALLY is the clue here. The lord was crucified outside Jerusalem, but mystically, the mass crucifies the son of God afresh when the priest transforms the wafer into the body of Christ.

So your entire post is thrown in the trash heap.

Dear Mystically:

Please tell us what you mean when you say "The Lord was crucified mystically." Sure sounds physical and not mystical when you read about it in the Bible.

Lastly, what happened in 1798. What group started that year that fulfills your time frame for the 1260 years?

[Jude3b]

would someone...for the sake of clarity pleeeeeeeeeze define "christian"???

it seems to me, reading thru most of the forums here, that very few, and i do mean very few of the people here are...

as for the whore...well, i do believe it is the roman...hmmm, or should i say babylonian...religion.....

but more generally, the term sure could apply to all the "so-called' "christians' thru the years, who also persecuted the true church...

it would not take a very indepth study of history to see that there is a remnant of faithful followers of Jesus...and they have been persecuted by both the "catholic" and "protestant" 'church....as well as the pagans...

like Jesus said..."you shall know them by their fruits"...


Dear Preacherman:

What is a Christian?

A Christian is a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. They Believe On Him and fully trust and obey Him as their personal Lord and Savior.

[Joe Gofish]

My guess? Protestant Christianity; they're so eager to point a finger at the Roman Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon... perhaps they are really trying to divert attention away from themselves. :wink: Tee-hee, just kidding... then again, you never know do ya? :teeth:
Well it may be the Baptist church they are still fighting all the time with one another,and they do believe in the calvin doctrine of once saved always saved and that doctrine will send you to hell

[MegaHertz]

So can we begin by asserting this woman to probably be located in Rome? Any objections? Comments?


It's Jerusalem as soon as satan takes control;

The city of Babylon is described in scripture;

Da:11:40: And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Da:11:41: He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

2Th:2:3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Re:11:7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Re:11:8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

None of the above come even close to describing anyplace but Jerusalem.

Before this last comment causes some emotions to rise let me just say the originally Holy City Jerusalem can't be called by that name if satan controls that ground. Babylon is satan's seat of 'power' and he is going to set it up where Jerusalem stands today.

[Jude3b]

First, the is no mill......in which we can have later debate. Now back to Babylon. First of all, the whole book in not about the church, it is about the 144,000 tribes of Israel as well. It is about those who overcome within the church and those Jews who keep the commandments during this time of trial.

We see John does in fact write a book unto the churches....

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

But know we see John is to address a different audiance....

Re 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

You state that the above verse speaks of Rome?

To get the correct understanding of the seven heads/mountains we must first understand who the beast is.....

THE BEAST FROM THE SEA

The first beast mentioned in Revelation 13 is usually referred to as a “man”, the anti-christ, which is seen arising out of a “sea” of multitudes. But is this first beast even a man? And does this “sea” mentioned mean from a sea of people? This first beast represents the KINGDOM of the dragon which arises out of the abyss, the pit of hell. As the first beast is Satan and his kingdom to represent the Kingdom of God, the second beast is the man, the son of the first beast or better known as the “son of perdition”, the False Prophet, to resemble the Son of God, the True Prophet .

THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH

Rev 13:11,12 “And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon”.

As the “sea” represents Hell and where the first beast arises, now we see a second beast coming up out of the earth. Again we see a beast coming “up from” or from below to signify once again the abyss. He is seen as the king of the bottomless pit in Rev chapter 9 however this beast is referenced as coming up from the earth (Gen 2) as to signify a “man” , the son of the first beast, the son of perdition to be likened after the “Lamb” the Son of God.

This second beast is “like” a lamb as he gives his appearance as to being the one and only Lamb of God and he speaks like his father the devil. This counterfeit has “two horns” which symbolizes more than being evil or for looks as it represents a certain characteristic of this lamb. As we will see the 10 horns of the beast representing the “House of Israel”, these two horns represent the “House of Judah” where the Lamb originates.

Rev. 5:5,6 “…Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it has been slain, having seven horns….”.

Interesting to note that both Lambs are referenced as having a characteristic of a lion which is seen in the four beasts and both “roar” like a lion as Peter notes the devil roaring “as” a lion (1 Pt. 5:8). In addition of being from the tribe of Judah, we see “The Lamb” above also having seven horns which will be shown to parallel the seven heads of the beast. Furthermore, both have been slain !

Both are seen as Lambs
Both are referenced as Lions
Both are also Man
Both speak like their fathers
Both exercise the power of their fathers
Both cause to worship their father
Both are seen coming from heaven
Both perform miracles
Both have been slain and live
Both have seven heads
Both will have a “Mark” on their people
Both destroy those without this Mark
Both Have a number !!!

Now, after John describes this lamb in chapter 13 he then describes another Lamb immediately following in chapter 14. When one understands the counterfeit and by studying both then one can gain an insight of each Lamb as each should “mirror” the other. Look at the similarities; this will be the key to understanding the MARK of the beast.

Rev. 14

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on mount sion
with him an hundred and forty and four thousand
having “HIS” father’s name written in “THEIR” foreheads”.

Rev. 13

And I beheld another Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb
And he caused all to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads
Let him count the number of the beast: for it is a number of a man

We now must understand the four beasts.....

THE FOUR BEASTS

As we continue with the counterfeit we see below both involve four beasts;

The four beasts before the throne of God;

Rev. 4:7 “And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast was like a calf, and the third beast was like a face of a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle”.

The four beasts before the throne of Satan;

Rev. 13:2 “And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power , and his seat, and his great authority”.

Now, let’s include Daniel’s visions of Nebuchadnezzar for further insight.

God’s Kingdom Satan’s Kingdom Nebuchadnezzar’s Image

Lion Lion Head of Gold
Calf Bear Breast/Arms of silver
Face of a Man Leopard Bell/Thighs of brass
Flying Eagle Dragon Legs/Feet

The four beasts are “latter day” kings which co-exist during the time when Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom.

Dan. 2:44 “And in the days of these kings (speaking of the 10 kings) shall God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume ALL these kingdoms (Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron/Clay) and it shall stand for ever.

Dan. 7:11,12 “I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake….V12 As concerning the rest of the beasts (Lion, Bear, Leopard) they had their dominion taken away YET their lives were prolonged for a season and a time”.

Dan. 8:22,23 “Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his (Grecia) power (power is now from the dragon). And in the latter time of THEIR (Gold, Silver, Brass, Iron/Clay) kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up”.

It very important to understand that these four beasts (kingdoms) all exist during the latter days and the time of Christ’s return. Thus they cannot represent Grecia, Media, Persia, and a revived Roman Empire as is being taught today. Again it is time when God sets up a kingdom, when a fierce king stands up, and at a time when a beast speaks great words and is slain. These four kingdoms will rise up in the latter days after the events in Matt 24:7 and do not exist today. Likewise, the seven heads do not exist currently as they come up from the four beasts.

Now to the proper understanding of the seven heads......

THE SEVEN HEADS

Normally scholars want to include the four beasts along with Media, Persia, Greece, and a Roman Empire and come up with the seven heads but this would mean that these kings would have to exist over many centuries and as shown would counterdict scripture. If we look closely at the four beasts we see the seven heads !

Daniel’s Vision

Lion Has eagle wings Head #1
Bear Laying on it’s side Head #2
Leopard four Heads Head #3, #4, #5, #6
Beast Strong and terrible Head #7

Now to the correct understanding of the beast which was slain......

Now, in Revelation 13 we are told that one of the seven heads of the beast has been wounded unto death but lives. What does this mean? Resurrection? Resuscitation? Which head is wounded? Again, the teachers of the day want us to think that a world dictator suffers a head wound but miraculously lives and thus the world now follows this man beast. There is no scriptural evidence for this line of thought!

Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of a great tree in Daniel chapter 4 gives us the answer. There we see this head of gold, the king, hew down and “wounded unto death” and “slain” and then the king becomes a “beast” of the field. However he is later restored by the roots which is symbolic of the 10 kings.

The head of Nebuchadnezzar Image slain and restored;

Nebuchadnezzar’s Image

Head of Gold - Hew down and made a beast, dominion taken
Breast/Arms of silver
Bell/Thighs of brass
Legs/Feet/Iron Clay - Kingdom is restored by it’s roots (ten toes)

Dan. 4:14 “He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree (head of gold), and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches: Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots (10 toes) in the earth, even with a band iron and brass…”.

Dan. 4:26 “And whereas they commanded to leave the stump of the tree roots; thy kingdom shall be sure unto thee, after that thou shalt have known that the heavens do rule”.

The head of the Beast slain and restored;

Satan’s Kingdom

Lion - Dominion taken away, Dan 7:12.
Bear
Leopard
Dragon - Kingdom restored among his roots(ten kings).

Rev 13:3 “And I saw one of his heads (head #1, Lion) wounded to death and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast”.

Dan 7:8 “I considered the horns (four beasts), and, behold, there came up among them a little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns (beasts) plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were the eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things”.

We see in Rev. chapter 12 Satan and his kingdom being cast down ,“slain”, just as it is seen in the image of Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar typified Satan and we need to understand that it was his kingdom and not himself which is slain. Thus as is the kingdom of Satan, the kingdom not a man is slain and appears to be rendered powerless. The world will follow the beast not because he has a literal head wound which has been healed but because they believe it is Jesus Christ, I mean who could make war with him…...

Also notice that the deadly head wound was to the first beast in Rev 13 not to the second beast. The first beast we identified as Satan and his kingdom and is not a man. However, this kingdom now will be restored under the second beast, the False Prophet, which is the little horn and a man.

Rev 13:12 “…which dwell therein to worship the FIRST BEAST, whose deadly wound was healed”.

The head of God slain and restored;

God has also had a “head” wounded unto death. Who else is seen as a lion and was a “man” which has been slain and also lives and will be among his roots once restored? The Son of God.

Now let’s get the understanding of Rev. 17:10;

“And there are seven kings: five have fallen (Bear (1), Leopard (4)), and one is (Lion (1)) , and the other is not yet come (Dragon (1)), and when he (Dragon) cometh, he MUST continue a short space (continues for 42 months Rev. 13:5). And the beast that was (Lion), and is not (dominion taken away), even he is the eighth (little horn), and is of the seven (not seventh like most think remember the beast has seven heads). And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings….”.

Jude3b, I know the theory of Rome I even had a tape from which I would pass around stating such. The problem was that I did not study to show thyself approved. Please take time to study these passages and you will find as I have much of today's teaching on the end time are incorrect.

In Christ, Mark.


Dear Mark:

Please be so kind and tell me how to label your eschatalogical position. Meaning- Are you pre-mil? post-mil? a-mil? or something else? Also, what religion or denomination or sect are you a member of, if any? I only ask because I am trying to figure out where your teaching comes from.

[Joe Gofish]

Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
It may be one of the new non-denominational churchs or maybe Benny Hinn and his group,or Jerry Falwell,Jimmy swaggart and old Pat.
What you think,I'm sorry I was NOT asking you to think that will be something new for you

[ross3421]

Dear Mark:

Please be so kind and tell me how to label your eschatalogical position. Meaning- Are you pre-mil? post-mil? a-mil? or something else? Also, what religion or denomination or sect are you a member of, if any? I only ask because I am trying to figure out where your teaching comes from.

My teaching has no denominational nor sect roots and it cannot be tied to one certain position which man has labeled.

Raised Catholic (unfortunately) then had several life changing events which brought me to salvation. Baptised in a Southern Baptist Church and currently attend a Christian Family Church. I did not go to seminary (thank goodness) and read every book I could get my hands on with a concentration towards prophecy.

God started to show me in the world what was supposed truth was not i.e history and understanding current affairs and that we are being lied to and that there was an ever evil in charge working through world leaders. I have since understood that this evil pervades in the church and that 99.9 % of main line prophecy being taught today is inaccurate. Satan truley has certain teachers working on his side to set up his return and kingdom.

I believe God users in a everlasting kingdom not a temporal one. The 1000 years is used as a metaphor.

I believe in no Rapture of anyone but a resurrection of all.

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel are literal 490 future days culminating in Christ's return and the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles (1 week).

Check my posts for further info....

God Bless.

[Jude3b]

My teaching has no denominational nor sect roots and it cannot be tied to one certain position which man has labeled.

Raised Catholic (unfortunately) then had several life changing events which brought me to salvation. Baptised in a Southern Baptist Church and currently attend a Christian Family Church. I did not go to seminary (thank goodness) and read every book I could get my hands on with a concentration towards prophecy.

God started to show me in the world what was supposed truth was not i.e history and understanding current affairs and that we are being lied to and that there was an ever evil in charge working through world leaders. I have since understood that this evil pervades in the church and that 99.9 % of main line prophecy being taught today is inaccurate. Satan truley has certain teachers working on his side to set up his return and kingdom.

I believe God users in a everlasting kingdom not a temporal one. The 1000 years is used as a metaphor.

I believe in no Rapture of anyone but a resurrection of all.

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel are literal 490 future days culminating in Christ's return and the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles (1 week).

Check my posts for further info....

God Bless.


Dear ross3421:

Thank you for your reply.

What do you call the time when Christ returns and the resurrection takes place? What is your scripture reference for that? Thanks,

[Joe Gofish]

My teaching has no denominational nor sect roots and it cannot be tied to one certain position which man has labeled.

Raised Catholic (unfortunately) then had several life changing events which brought me to salvation. Baptised in a Southern Baptist Church and currently attend a Christian Family Church. I did not go to seminary (thank goodness) and read every book I could get my hands on with a concentration towards prophecy.

God started to show me in the world what was supposed truth was not i.e history and understanding current affairs and that we are being lied to and that there was an ever evil in charge working through world leaders. I have since understood that this evil pervades in the church and that 99.9 % of main line prophecy being taught today is inaccurate. Satan truley has certain teachers working on his side to set up his return and kingdom.

I believe God users in a everlasting kingdom not a temporal one. The 1000 years is used as a metaphor.

I believe in no Rapture of anyone but a resurrection of all.

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel are literal 490 future days culminating in Christ's return and the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles (1 week).

Check my posts for further info....

God Bless.
In the South, it is said, there are more Baptists than people. Besides a bit of humor about how numerous they are, the saying is a sly reference to the well-known Baptist practice of padding the church roll, yielding a larger total in the local Baptist association than there is in the census. But far from being a provincial denomination of rural churches, the Southern Baptist Convention has evolved into an organization that asserts its political clout and claims its prominence as the largest Protestant denomination, with 15.7 million members. Now convention leaders admit that figure is inflated by as much as a third. And since more reliable figures show that membership has remained flat throughout the '90s, they are searching for ways to start the church growing again. Messengers are expected to ratify two recommendations - to leave the organization's name as it is, and to hold next year's meeting in Orlando despite a boycott of the Walt Disney Co., which has a large entertainment complex there. The messengers also will be told that there are fewer Baptists than there were last year. In April, the Southern Baptist Convention reported that in 1998 it experienced its first drop in total membership in more than 70 years. The loss of 162,158 members is a 1 percent drop from the previous year.

[ross3421]

Dear ross3421:

Thank you for your reply.

What do you call the time when Christ returns and the resurrection takes place? What is your scripture reference for that? Thanks,

The time from when Christ returns to the resurrection is the DAY OF THE LORD.

This day starts out in darkness.

Acts 2:19,20 - "And I will show wonders in the heavens above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come".

This day starts after the 6th seal

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This is the day Christ will return

I Thess 5:1,2 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".

Rev 16:15-17 - "Behold, I come as a thief, blessed is he that watcheth, and keep his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying it is done".

The resurrection also happens this day for both godly and ungodly

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The old earth and heaven are destroyed this day

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Something that I just noticed and have overlooked. Check the phrase "and the works that are therein shall be burned up". Not only does this verse elude to the fact of a new heaven and earth but that this day which the works therein are burned up which cannot happen until they are judged first.


If your question is that this day could be 1000 years? It is not. It does not say that it is, the resurrection of the godly and ungodly occur together, the old heaven and earth are burn upon Christ's return and presence on and on...

Mark.

[Jude3b]

The time from when Christ returns to the resurrection is the DAY OF THE LORD.

This day starts out in darkness.

Acts 2:19,20 - "And I will show wonders in the heavens above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come".

This day starts after the 6th seal

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Re 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

This is the day Christ will return

I Thess 5:1,2 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".

Rev 16:15-17 - "Behold, I come as a thief, blessed is he that watcheth, and keep his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air, and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying it is done".

The resurrection also happens this day for both godly and ungodly

1co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The old earth and heaven are destroyed this day

2pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Something that I just noticed and have overlooked. Check the phrase "and the works that are therein shall be burned up". Not only does this verse elude to the fact of a new heaven and earth but that this day which the works therein are burned up which cannot happen until they are judged first.


If your question is that this day could be 1000 years? It is not. It does not say that it is, the resurrection of the godly and ungodly occur together, the old heaven and earth are burn upon Christ's return and presence on and on...

Mark.


Dear Mark:

Thank you for that post.

So, would it be safe to say that your are teaching that The Day of the Lord, the Scriptural Rapture and the General Resurrection all take place On the Day of the Lord and that is one day and not 1000 years?

[ross3421]

Dear Mark:

Thank you for that post.

So, would it be safe to say that your are teaching that The Day of the Lord, the Scriptural Rapture and the General Resurrection all take place On the Day of the Lord and that is one day and not 1000 years?

This time period is not 1000 years, yes this is what I am saying. However, I did not say that it was a 24 hour period.

How long is this "day" ?

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


There is no day nor hour for it does not exsist. Again, the instruments used to measure time have vanished.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



What are you refering when you say "Scriptual Rapture" ??

God Bless, Mark.

[Jude3b]

This time period is not 1000 years, yes this is what I am saying. However, I did not say that it was a 24 hour period.

How long is this "day" ?

Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


There is no day nor hour for it does not exsist. Again, the instruments used to measure time have vanished.

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



What are you refering when you say "Scriptual Rapture" ??

God Bless, Mark.


Scriptural Rapture: Jesus returns and we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye.

[ross3421]

Scriptural Rapture: Jesus returns and we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Are you speaking of the dead in the graves?

[Jude3b]

Are you speaking of the dead in the graves?


Dear ross3421:

Yes, of course, just like it talks about in I Thess. 4:16: "...the dead in Christ shall rise first..." (etc.)

[ross3421]

Dear ross3421:

Yes, of course, just like it talks about in I Thess. 4:16: "...the dead in Christ shall rise first..." (etc.)

Perhaps you will like this........

The dead in Christ shall rise first

Those who believe in a Rapture see the events occurring like this:

Dead in Christ arise - > Tribulation Period - > Second Coming of Christ
Alive/remain caught up

However scripture shows the following in relation to the resurrection:

Tribulation Period - > Second Coming of Christ - > Dead in Christ arise

Thus, the alive and remain would follow the dead in Christ after the Tribulation Period.

The gathering of the godly and ungodly happens together within the same time frame. Godly being first, ungodly being second.

Matt 25:31,32."When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on his upon throne of glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats".

John 11:24."Martha said unto him, I know that he (Lazarus) shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day".

John 12:48."He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one the judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day”.

Now, let’s go to one of the key verses of all…….

I Cor 15: 20-24."But now is Christ risen from the dead, and became the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that our Christ's at his coming. then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom of god....."

Once again the sequence of events; Christ returns, then afterwards the dead in Christ rise and the end of this world comes with the appearance of the kingdom of God. Note, that when Christ returns above it is followed by the "end" not a Tribulation Period. Also stated again is that we "all" die, there is no escape.

Rev 20: 5,6."But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..."

Clearly here the bible states that the first resurrection takes place after the Tribulation Period at some point and that this is the first thus, it would be contrary to scripture to have another “first” resurrection or a "catching up" prior to the Tribulation Period.

Rev 11:18"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shoudest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear his name, small and great: and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth".

Again, we see at the 7th trumpet at the end of the Tribulation Period both dead believers and the unsaved about to be resurrected and judged. Note that this occurs at the end of the Tribulation Period! not prior.

Great White Throne is judgement for all

Rev 20:11,12"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away; and there was no place found for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: and another book was opened which was the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works".

Here above we see the first group of those before God, this is the first resurrection. This is the dead in Christ arising first. Why do we know these are believers mentioned here; their referred to as "small and great" which were those who "feared his name" in the above verse Rev. 11:18. We see them "stand" before god; Psalms 1:5 states that the ungodly will not stand in the judgment. The book of life is present; Rev 3:5 states the lord will confess the names of those written in this book, the ungodly have been blotted out. And yes, we are judged according to our works as for a reward which is supported by II Cor. 5:10 the same verse which those who claim a Rapture use to support separate judgements??.

In addition, a common misinterpretation is to take the phrase "and there was no place found for them" and apply it below to the dead, small and great. However, it is speaking to which sentence it is found, to the old heaven and earth. Now let's see the second resurrection, the resurrection of the ungodly.

Rev 20:13"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works".

We know that these are the ungodly being judged but are these delivered here just those that happened to die in the oceans ect...hardly. The "sea" mentioned here is no ordinary sea but the abyss, the bottomless pit. We also see in Rev. 13:1 the beast rising up out of this sea which is earlier referred to as the bottomless pit in Rev. 11:7. He does not rise out of an "multitude of people" which has been incorrectly taught. Also, unlike the group prior there is no mention of the book of life and they are just judged according to their works.

We have clearly seen that the “dead in Christ shall rise first” occurring at the end of the Tribulation Period. This would mean that the “we which are alive and remain” being caught up must have to also happen at the end of the Tribulation Period and not prior !! This understanding alone discredits a pre or mid Rapture Theory, study it again for yourself!!


With a shout, voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God

The above signals an event about to happen, "the dead in Christ shall rise first" the resurrection. Now if we were to believe in a Rapture which will suddenly without warning take thousands of people then how can it be signaled by a “shout”, a “voice”, or a “trump” ?.

We have clearly shown that the resurrection takes place at the end of the Tribulation Period both for the believer as well as for the wicked so these signals and sounds would also have to occur at the same time as well. Does scripture confirm this?

With a shout

The word “shout” when associated with the Lord is a signal to battle to slaughter not to rescue. Plainly, when the Lord shouts you better hide. This is a sound as Christ returns at his second coming and aligns with the other events at the end of the Tribulation Period.

Ps 47:2-6 “For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet. He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved. Selah. God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises: sing praises unto our King, sing praises”.

Jer 25:29-33 “For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts. Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Wow! The above verses are clearly describing the second coming whereby the earth is subdued by the sword. The same sword which which will smite the nations in Rev. 19:15. Also notice the Lord shall “roar” as seen as he returns (Isa.42:13, Ezek.19:7, Hosea 11:10, Joel 3:16, Amos 1:2, Rev.10:3). We also just so happen to see a “voice” to be uttered and a “trumpet” to be sounded.

With a voice

John 5:25,28,29"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. V28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".

Above we see that the “voice” spoken is associated with a resurrection of the dead in Christ not a Rapture. Also, again "all", good and evil, shall come forth and be resurrected at the sound of his voice not just the "dead in Christ". This is further support of the resurrection taking place at the end of the Tribulation Period.

Trump

I Cor. 15: 51,52."Behold I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be all be changed".

It is so hard to believe that there are those of the faith who use this verse to support a Rapture. First it states that “all” shall be changed so are we saying that this means not “all” but only those who are living on the earth at a certain time? Clearly not, for he is speaking of those which are asleep, dead in the grave. This is confirmed in the next verse with the dead being raised up. Furthermore, we see that it is at the "last trump" the dead in Christ are resurrected and changed and put on immortality. This "last trump" cannot occur prior to the Tribulation Period because seven trumpets still are yet to sound and thus would not be the last trump. Paul has been speaking of a resurrection for the entire chapter and now slips in one verse denoting a Rapture?

Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die! (1 Cor 15:36).

Rev 10:7."But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he declared to his servants the prophets".

Rev 11:14,15,18."The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever...... and the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth".

Why is the 7th trump the last trump? We see the mystery of God is finished; and most important it ushers in the Lord's return for he comes quickly (Rev 2:5,16,3:11,22:7). The trump of God is the last trump which sets the stage for a resurrection not a supposed Rapture.

We have seen that with a shout, a voice of an archangel, and with a trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first all clearly occurring at the end of the Tribulation Period. Thus eliminating a possibility of a Rapture prior to the Tribulation Period. OK, but how do you explain the "alive and remain"? Who are they?

Then we which are alive and remain refers to the resurrected

Is Paul speaking here of "alive in the flesh" an earthly body? Why would he then speak this to thosewho he knew would be long dead and not be here at that time which he confirms in the next chapter?. Why would they care? They were concerned with those who were, "asleep", already dead and what would happen to them. Paul here is speaking of being "alive" after being resurrected!!.

I Cor 15:20-22"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and became the firstfruits of then that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so all should be made "alive".

We see above the resurrection of the dead and then those made “alive”. We are made "alive" after death at the resurrection. This is the same in which Paul was speaking "the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive (after resurrection)".


God Bless.

[stephen goswami]

Christ forgave repentant whores. We are no better as we also live compromising lives. So, coming out means repenting permanently as we and the churches must compromise to live in this devil’s kingdom. Only the martyrs can claim clearance.

[stephen goswami]

I also grew out of R.C. church after being converted into it from paganism. But, for me their pagan practices were a stepping stone towards Christ. So we must forgive compromising by churches and persons as we all are pagan by heart.

Christ forgave repentant whores. We are no better as we also live compromising . So, coming out means repenting permanently as we and the churches must compromise to live in this devil’s kingdom. Only the martyrs can claim clearance.

[Rushing Jaws]

## I think the WoB is Jerusalem just before, or early in, the war which resulted in the destruction of the Temple in AD 70; see also the description of "the blood of all the righteous from the beginning of the world" in Matthew 24, & compare with Rev. 17.

IMHO, Greek ge = Heb. eretz; so IMHO it should probably be understood as "land (of Israel)", rather than as "(entire) earth". See also Ezekiel 16 (or is it 23 ?) - the lament for BtG in Rev. 17 & 18, is taken from that for Tyre in Ezekiel

As for the false prophet - I think that is a composite personification both of the Roman and Jewish priesthoods, one being seen through the other, much as the angels of the seven churches are combined with the human bishops of those churches, so that one is described, or addressed, as though it were the other.

I think the great red dragon is also, in those different ways, the Roman legions against Jerusalem, and the devil attacking the Jerusalem Church, so that it "fled into the wilderness".

As for the CC - I think the words about BtG are applicable to the CC, and to any Church, or to any society, but that it is not the CC that is being directly denounced. Any society at all - such as Churches, nations, or whatever - is perfectly capable of behaving like a BtG: whether one thinks of the USA, the UN, the CC, the Southern Baptist Convention, banks, political parties: any society of human beings is capable of hellish attitudes; even if it's not the CC :teeth: It is those attitudes, and everything else in nations, churches, other groups, or individuals, that will not submit to the Kingship of Christ (including of course the dross in our own lives) that brings BtGs into being.

One cannot escape the spirit of BtG by leaving a group, but only by repentance and conversion. Groups as such are not the real problem - the problem is in the corrupted and sinful heart of man; including Christian man; deal with that corruption, and there is no foundation left in the heart for BtG. Don't deal with it - and BtG can be built up in the heart. "It is not what go into a man that defiles him" - but what comes out of him: visible things are not the problem, but unrighteousness, pride, anger, wrath, hypocrisy, lust, lies and other BtG-ish things. Where there is unvanquished evil - there, is BtG. Equating BtG with a single unique or identifiable, externally-visible group, is too easy - it lets us off from facing our own corruption. ##

[Jude3b]

Hi,


Good argument....

But we must entertain the possibility that the Protestant Church(the bastard child) is forgiven of God because this church extracted itself from the Catholic entity; if indeed as we suppose, the Catholic Church be the Great Whore of Babylon.

Let me explain. In Chapter 18 an angel counsels people to come out of the Whore of Babylon(presumably the Catholic church). And those who leave her will not share in her plagues.

Rev. 18:4








So if the Catholic Church indeed be the Whore of Babylon, the Protestant Church(the illegitimate bastard child, as you term it ) is forgiven because he come out of her long ago .. .



All Christians that come out of the Whore - Roman Catholicism, will not share in her plagues - whether they simply remain a Christian or as a Christian also join a Protestant sect.

[SpiritWoman]

There's no doubt that the RCC retained some pagan rituals and "married" them to Christianity...some of which protestants continue to practice. (For example, I have a Christmas tree in my living room and celebrate a day on which Christ was NOT born!) :teeth:

However, I'm not sure if the RCC is the Great Whore, because later in the chapter, she is revealed as the "great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." And in Chapter 18, "she' is described as the center of world trade...so much so, that all the merchants of the world will mourn her fall. In fact, this centralization of commerce seems to be the most important characteristic about her.

I agree that there is some connection to Rome...and I agree that there is also a spiritual connection...but as for the rest of the description, it's not true of Rome...at least, not at present...and it's certainly not true of the RCC.

Rome, as an empire of the past, has ties to ancient Babylon...and those ties were retained by the RCC when Christianity transitioned into Catholicism. However, that doesn't mean that the RCC IS the woman on the beast...perhaps the author is speaking of something that we haven't seen yet in our lifetime. Something as simple as the the re-centralization of commerce government in western Europe, in addition to the formation of a centralized world religion that would be an integral part of this "Rome" resurrection.

Panda

Sounds like some are actually recieving the message. From your post I have faith.

Why is it that anyone would think that revelations is talking about A denomination? If this were true then why would it be RCC? Why wouldn't it be Muslim or Mormonism or any other religion? Why is it that the children of Martin Luther and Calvin not guilty?

It would be a great surprise to all, as it is written in revelation that it will be, that the great Whore is the lost daughter of Wisdom. One who loves material riches far more than the earth "G_D's temple" itself. And is willing to sell her off to the highest bidder.

This is revealed everywhere on earth today, the richest are the Oil Kings and manufacturers of poisons that are released into G_d's temple, the ignorant are the consumers, who buy the whore's wears on every street corner in the world. In the meantime people are dieing from cancer contributed by these poisons, they are dieing and starving for thier wars for control of these atrocities.

Fit revelations into a pattern that is really being played out today. You can do this just by following His commandments.

It is ignorance that is the Great Whore of Babylon, and the hidden is Wisdom behind the veil of truth which we as servants must reveal as it is written in proverbs. As it was the very teaching of Jesus in his existence and ways of life as well as the gift of his words.

SW

[Jude3b]

Sounds like some are actually recieving the message. From your post I have faith.

Why is it that anyone would think that revelations is talking about A denomination? If this were true then why would it be RCC? Why wouldn't it be Muslim or Mormonism or any other religion? Why is it that the children of Martin Luther and Calvin not guilty?

It would be a great surprise to all, as it is written in revelation that it will be, that the great Whore is the lost daughter of Wisdom. One who loves material riches far more than the earth "G_D's temple" itself. And is willing to sell her off to the highest bidder.

This is revealed everywhere on earth today, the richest are the Oil Kings and manufacturers of poisons that are released into G_d's temple, the ignorant are the consumers, who buy the whore's wears on every street corner in the world. In the meantime people are dieing from cancer contributed by these poisons, they are dieing and starving for thier wars for control of these atrocities.

Fit revelations into a pattern that is really being played out today. You can do this just by following His commandments.

It is ignorance that is the Great Whore of Babylon, and the hidden is Wisdom behind the veil of truth which we as servants must reveal as it is written in proverbs. As it was the very teaching of Jesus in his existence and ways of life as well as the gift of his words.

SW


Dear SW:

You ask some great questions in this post. Thank you for asking them. "WHY IS IT THAT ANYONE WOULD THINK THAT REVELATIONS IS ABOUT A DENOMINATION? ...WHY WOULD IT BE ABOUT THE RCC?"

Here is why and the answer is much, much simpler than you can imagine.

First off, in the book of Revelation is found in symbolic language history in advance of the conflicts of the true church of God - the body of Christ and the false (denominations and especially the Papal religion of Roman Catholicism, Cults, Islam, etc.). It covers the entire spectrum of time - from Christ living as a man on earth - the current gospel dispensation - all the way until the final consummation.

Check out some keys to understanding the book of Revelation: First, Jesus appeared to John on the Isle of Patmos. Jesus told John to: "Write the things with thou hast seen (the things that have taken place since John was a child), and the things which are (what was happening at that time, in 95 A.D.), and the things which shall be herafter; (the entire history in advance of the church age - right up to the final consummation)." (Rev. 1:19).

John was to view and write down history in advance and he wrote it in symbolic language... and its great underlying principle is based on Analogy. An object is chosen to represent not itself, but something of analagous character. I know this might be very confusing to you. What does he mean? Analagous language.

Take a look with me at Webster quickly: Webster defines symbol as follows: "The sign or representation of any moral thing by the images or properties of natural things. Thus, a lion is the symbol of courage; the lamb is the symbol of meekness or patience."

What did I mean by all that, you ask! Well, think about this for a moment: the church of God - the body of Christ was born on a (symbolic) battelfield; her warfare has filled the pages of history in every generation, and she is seen at the end of time entrenched in her most vicious battle - Armageddon! Three great wars have been fought (in symbolic language history in advance) - and won by true Christianity. The first was a struggle with the dragon of paganism; the second was with the beast of papalism (the Whore of Babylon); the third was an encounter with the evils of the false prophets of the Cults, Islam, etc (the harlot daughters of the Whore of Babylon). In the final conflict, the church of God - the body of Christ is faced with all three as a trinity of evil. Satan has combined his forces in the final attempt to destroy the chuch of God - the body of Christ.

But thank God, the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail against her.

So, to answer your question. Why does anyone think that Revelations is about a denomination. The answer- because the Revelations is the history of the Christian church - the church of God - the body of Christ and its battles from the time of Christ, with paganism and than with the problem of the "falling away" - resulting in religious Papal Roman Catholicism and the further problems of the false Cults, Islam, etc.. At the end time, all three will wage war against the saints of the church of God - the body of Christ (and that is the battle of Armageddon - when paganism, Roman Catholicism, Cults and Islam all raise themelves up to attempt to wipe out the church of God - the body of Christ.) God will not allow this to happen.. "the gates of hell cannot prevail against her."

[Joe Gofish]

Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

Jude what you are saying has been proven false so many thing you must be the only Ati-catholic bigot still using this,Hunt argues that the Whore "is a city built on seven hills," which he identifies as the seven hills of ancient Rome. This argument is based on Revelation 17:9, which states that the woman sits on seven mountains.

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered "hill" by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as "mountain" or "mount." Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on "seven mountains," it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21). The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as "hill" in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

Even if we grant that the reference is to Rome, which Rome are we talking about—pagan Rome or Christian Rome? As we will see, ancient, pagan Rome fits all of Hunt’s criteria as well, or better, than Rome during the Christian centuries.

Now bring in the distinction between Rome and Vatican City—the city where the Catholic Church is headquartered—and Hunt’s claim becomes less plausible. Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.
Jude you need to stop reading books by Hunt and your other friend Jack Chick and start to try and get the hate out of you.I'm still praying for you and hope you come home B4 it is to late.

[Joe Gofish]

Rome and Roman Catholicism got married in 312 A.D. -
This Roman Church is a fornicator in the sense that she left her first love (God) and got married to Paganism.
Jude why do you keep telling lies about the Church,Roman Catholicism do not appear until 1054.
PLEASE TELL US WHERE YOU GET THE DATE OF 312AD,JUDE I WILL GIVE YOU 50 PEARLS IF YOU WILL ANSWER ONE QUESTION

[Jude3b]

Jude why do you keep telling lies about the Church,Roman Catholicism do not appear until 1054.
PLEASE TELL US WHERE YOU GET THE DATE OF 312AD,JUDE I WILL GIVE YOU 50 PEARLS IF YOU WILL ANSWER ONE QUESTION

Dear Joe Gofish:

I know you didn't learn very much geography or history in your school days, but have you ever heard of Constantine? He was the one who stopped the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire about 312 A.D. and by 313 A.D., as emperor of Rome - made Christianity legal.

I personally believe that a large portion of so-called Christianity had become so apostate by 270 A.D. that ritualism, traditionalism and damnable heresies had already crept into the church that it could be called Roman Catholicsm by that time.

Joe, that is not to say that they had a building with a sign, that said "Roman Catholic Church above their front door. I only mean that the body of Christ - the church of God was no longer the only VISIBLE church by 270 A.D. There were many "religionists" by that time and it got worse and worse and in 313 A.D. when Christianity was legalized - Paganism was in large part married to the fallen version of Christianity and it became known later on as Roman Catholicism. By the end of the third century - the AntiChrist Papal system would be put in place and it would all be down hill from there for at least the next 1000 years or more until the Reformation would start and the trend would start to be reversed.

Today, many, many Christians are coming to see that there is only one church - the church of God - the body of Christ. In my opinion, One cannot see that unless they are born-again, saved, washed in the blood of the lamb and love God above all else.

[stephen goswami]

Materialistic consumerism, infecting all churches and societies, is the GWB as defined by commerce implication. The widespread distrust of spiritual values, soul and eternity has drawn us into it. We can extricate us from it by repentance for our original sin (we committed in heaven where our soul were created by Heavenly Father, the unity of heavenly parents) and present sins. The last is the shadow of the former. We had destroyed heaven (rev-12-7) and falling as refugees here, are going to destroy the earth now. Our souls are going to disintegration (eternal death) by consumerism and falsehood entertainments of mass media. Only deep repentance for this can draw us out of this death trap by martyr level effort.

[Anoetos]

I believe the Apostle was referring to the Roman Empire of his day but that by extension it would refer to any imperial entity which has set itself against Christ and His Church so today it could be radical Islam or it could be Western Secularism or any number of things.

I believe it is foolish to obsess about such things.

Cling to the Cross. Be constant in attendance upon Word and Sacrament.

[Yankee_Doodle]

Almost certainly the great city that sits on seven hills was Rome. There are several clear hints that indicate this:

1) Go back to Chap. 2 Revelations, where it calls Pergamum the city where satan sits. At the time of John Pergamum (in today's Turkey) was essentially the capital of paganism. It was the seat of the emperor worship cult; and the central Pagan temples. Paganism was the symbol of satan referred to by the angel.

2. In Chapter 17 where it discusses the Harlot John states that he saw that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints & the witnesses to Jesus. Rome killed many of the saints & of course Saint Peter & Andrew (witnesses to Christ).

3. At the end of Chap. 17 it clearly states the woman is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

All of these clues can only fit Rome. What is less clear is who the beast she was riding on is, however, we do know the various beasts (beast of the sea, earth, etc) are spawns of satan. To view the beast as for example the Catholic Church is unreasonable in my view, since the beast was, is not now, but will come again briefly (it can hardly be said that the Catholic Church has only existed "briefly" or for one hour as Revelations puts it).

The only clue I find to the beast is that Rome (the woman) was riding it in John's vision given by the angel, while at the same time that beast is a product of Rome that didn't exist at the time of John's vision (as the beast is an "eighth king" of the seven). Something that Rome both created and fed on that had temporarily disappeared? It had names of blasphamies written on it (indicating it wasn't anything good). My theory is that perhaps the vision was not completely present tense. I think it may have been given to John in God's concept of time (omnipresent). In other words, the beast was perhaps paganism. John, looking into the future foresaw the fall of Rome (along with the fall of paganism) & the rise of Christianity. The reason why the mystery was understood by John (indicated by the angel explaining that he is revealing the mystery of the woman & beast to John) yet we have a hard time with understanding the way John wrote it is that John (as a man) couldn't properly explain the vision because it was given to him in God's language. God's concept of time (the past & future are ever present) is incomprehensible to man (which may help explain why God had to send his son in the form of man to ensure that we properly understood His message, which may have been misunderstood by the Israelites in the first place.....I admit I'm taking a leap here).

Perhaps paganism or some other form of aberration to God will rise again. Perhaps even a Roman type power will rise for a brief period prior to the anti-Christ coming. For me the most important message is to be ready. Revelations gives us good ideas about the things to be careful of, but IMO it's not ripe for understanding.

[dizzle]

The great whore of Babylon was apostate Jerusalem.

[Yankee_Doodle]

The great whore of Babylon was apostate Jerusalem.

Viable theory.....in fact if that is true it gives credence to my view that the vision John received was given to him in God's concept of time (which for us might seem to bounce back & forth between the past, present, and future). Your view would necessitate that Jerusalem makes is reunited & comes to weild great influence over the "kings of the earth." This would comport with the dispensationalist view (that most or none of the events described in Revelations occurred yet). Like I said though it's too difficult IMO to make a conclusive statement.....but I agree your view is at least as viable as the Rome theory.

[dizzle]

I am a preterist, I do not believe that most of Revelation is about our future at all.

[Yankee_Doodle]

I am a preterist, I do not believe that most of Revelation is about our future at all.

I would consider myself a preterist as well (partial or orthodox however). But my thoughts about the way the vision was given to John neither refutes or supports preterism or dispensationalism. I merely think it's possible that the angel sent by God gave John the vision using God's concept of time, which helps explain our difficulty in understanding it. Perhaps many of the events did happen. Perhaps the city represented by the woman was Rome & perhaps it was Jerusalem. Perhaps the destruction of the temple or the fall of Rome were some of the events described in Revelations. The point is I don't think Revelations is written in chronological order.

The vision given to John was unlike any messages given to any past prophets. John was literally wisked away into perhaps another dimension....possibly God's dimension. When you read Revelations the visions described by John were scattered and sureal. Once he came back out of the wilderness where the angel took him he wrote what he saw; but he was limited by his three dimensional realm of comprehension. My view is that God did not intend for us to fully understand Revelations. He gave it to us so we have an idea of the events that would happen, but He provides us no indication of what order they will happen in. God does this for man because he mainly wants us to understand the consequence of disbelief & heathenism.

When you examine past communications between God & the prophets God spoke to them in their language. Jesus is a different story because He was God who shown Himself on earth in the form of man to show His love for us by making the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus was a bridge between God & man because He possessed God's concept of time and was able to explain God's will in the language of man, as He became man but remained God at the same time.

IMO Revelations is a message by God that sort of completes the message of Christ. Revelations is perhaps an element of God's plan to save as many souls as possible. While only God can save, He gave us the free will to accept or reject Him. Without getting to much into this paradox, IMO God gave us one more thing to think about in making our choice....judgment.

[John Reece]

Perhaps the destruction of the temple or the fall of Rome were some of the events described in Revelations. The point is I don't think Revelations is written in chronological order.

[...]

When you read Revelations the visions described by John were scattered and sureal.

My view is that God did not intend for us to fully understand Revelations.

[..]

IMO Revelations is a message by God that sort of completes the message of Christ. Revelations is perhaps an element of God's plan to save as many souls as possible.

Look at the title of the last book in your Bible and see if there is an 's' attached to Revelation'.

[Yankee_Doodle]

Look at the title of the last book in your Bible and see if there is an 's' attached to Revelation'.

don't need to look, thanks for correcting the error. It's a bad habit (when I'm thinking of the revelations of Revelation.....LOL....then start typing to fast).

Anyway.... what about the substance of my post? Frankly, the notion that there's no chronological order to Revelation just occurred to me. I've spent some time struggling with Revelation; to wind up figuring out we're not endowed with the insight to figure it out. This is why I've never been too dogmatic about it. I think the idea that perhaps John couldn't even fully comprehend the message given to him is evidenced by the early Christians belief that the events described would occur in John's lifetime, and the corresponding fact that they never did. This is just a guess of mine, but I think a reasonable one.

After all, perhaps no other area of Biblical scholarly interpretation has such a wide divergence in views. When looking at other areas of disagreement, say Calvinism vs. Arminianism, they at least find some logical support in the NT (I personally favor the Arminian system). Moreover, on many levels the disagreement is more semantics than anything. However, with Revelation I think most of what I've read on it, logically speaking is more a collection of speculation & in some cases alarmist literature to forward an agenda. In other words, to spite all the study on this book, there's no consensus in the theological community (or even two or three well developed schools of thought), indicating it's not amenable to interpretation in the traditional sense. When I reflect on God's omnipotence, that is for God the past and future are ever present, it sounds like how John saw the vision given to him in the wilderness by the angel. If God had intended us to comprehend anything in Revelation beyond what is readily understandable (e.g. the consequences of disbelief & the letters to the churches) He would have given the message to John much like He gave past messages to prophets like Moses, which was in their language and their dimension. In fact I think a critical element of God's design is that we aren't able to figure out the when and where of Revelation. After all, if we could there would be less incentive to "always be ready." We could reserve our readiness for the second coming until its upon us. Again, guesswork on my part

[Yankee_Doodle]

I am a preterist, I do not believe that most of Revelation is about our future at all.

something I forgot to note....while I think some of the events described in Revelation may have happened, proof that it hasn't all happened yet is the 1,000 years of peace that will precede final judgment. If anyone can point to a 1,000 year era of continuous peace on earth, I'd sure like to know about it.

[John Reece]

something I forgot to note....while I think some of the events described in Revelation may have happened, proof that it hasn't all happened yet is the 1,000 years of peace that will precede final judgment. If anyone can point to a 1,000 year era of continuous peace on earth, I'd sure like to know about it.

Where in Revelation is there a prediction of a thousand years of peace?

[Yankee_Doodle]

Where in Revelation is there a prediction of a thousand years of peace?

Chapter 20. Satan is locked away & will decieve nations no more, Christ will reign during that period, the beheaded saints will come to life, etc. From my study this is generally viewed as analogous to 1,000 years of peace (no more satan or evil, Christ rules, etc.). This is the first resurrection (that is resurrection of the Christs saints who were killed in His name). The second resurrection is the rest of the dead (at the end of Chap. 20) where all those not found in the book of life (those who were not saved) are thrown into the lake of fire along with Death & Hades.

After the 1,000 years are over Satan will be released to deceive the nations in order to gather them for battle against the city God loves (Jerusalem). Satan and his armies are then defeated.

After Satan's final defeat God will dwell with mortals, and death will be no more (Chapter 21:1-5). It seems to me that these events have not occured.

[stephen goswami]

Chapter 20. Satan is locked away & will decieve nations no more, Christ will reign during that period, the beheaded saints will come to life, etc. From my study this is generally viewed as analogous to 1,000 years of peace (no more satan or evil, Christ rules, etc.). This is the first resurrection (that is resurrection of the Christs saints who were killed in His name). The second resurrection is the rest of the dead (at the end of Chap. 20) where all those not found in the book of life (those who were not saved) are thrown into the lake of fire along with Death & Hades.

After the 1,000 years are over Satan will be released to deceive the nations in order to gather them for battle against the city God loves (Jerusalem). Satan and his armies are then defeated.

After Satan's final defeat God will dwell with mortals, and death will be no more (Chapter 21:1-5). It seems to me that these events have not occured.
Giving importance to Revelation is wrong, as it was created or selected from doubtful essays by the R.C. church to terrorize people into subjection. It was common practice in those days to write in the name of famous people. I consider it blasphemous as it defames the nature of God. Whatever goes against the “love-God” principle is a blasphemy. We know from the Christian and Buddhists principles that spiritual love builds up while selfish pride destroys by greed, hate, and vengeance. That is axiom. Whoever goes against it will be destroyed.
We all have fallen from heaven by becoming whore of Devil, the pride principle. Christ has come to save us, the whores. So witch hunting will serve no purpose. Let us pray that all us whores may repent to be saved.

[Yankee_Doodle]

Giving importance to Revelation is wrong, as it was created or selected from doubtful essays by the R.C. church to terrorize people into subjection. It was common practice in those days to write in the name of famous people. I consider it blasphemous as it defames the nature of God. Whatever goes against the “love-God” principle is a blasphemy. We know from the Christian and Buddhists principles that spiritual love builds up while selfish pride destroys by greed, hate, and vengeance. That is axiom. Whoever goes against it will be destroyed.
We all have fallen from heaven by becoming whore of Devil, the pride principle. Christ has come to save us, the whores. So witch hunting will serve no purpose. Let us pray that all us whores may repent to be saved.

While I strongly agree with the Love-God principal, I think we have a dramatically different approach to our faith (which of course is fine....we all come to Christ in different ways, as Christ said Himself). I don't think Revelation distracts from the Love-God principal, although I would agree the Catholic church uses fear rather than love to garner obedience & church attendence, thus I am not Catholic. However, I do not think that Revelation is blasphemy, nor have I ever studied or relied on Buddhism to augment my Christianity (I view that as heresy, as Buddhism is essentially paganism). I do know that Christianity did hit India in the days of the early Church & there's many concepts (such as Gnosticism) I haven't studied with any intensity. However, I am an ardent Wesleyan & have "skimmed" enough about other approaches to understand they're wrong. It doesn't mean however that I think only Wesleyan's can be saved (that would be the type of dogmatic approach Paul preaches against). I think anyone who has a true love of God & accepts Christ as their savior is saved. However, we do need to be apprehensive of false teachings, like IMO anything akin to paganism.......these types of systems IMO clearly are anti-God & anti-Christ and must be avoided. I am curious what your theological system is? How do you balance Buddhism with the unrefutable word of God prohibiting pagan practices? Perhaps you are able to cut out the pagan aspects of Buddhism? I'm curious

[stephen goswami]

I am curious what your theological system is? How do you balance Buddhism with the unrefutable word of God prohibiting pagan practices? Perhaps you are able to cut out the pagan aspects of Buddhism? I'm curious[/quote]
My three years of Indian theology and then three years of xtian theology coupled with 30 years of mission work have given me a concept of a fruit bearing heaven of repentance. In this land of Buddha and the derivative Hinduism we must adjust ourselves. Judaism also inherited hell and heaven doctrine from Persians. Buddha preaches preexistence of soul and atonement. Christ also does that in prodigal son tale.
Christ existed before this earthly life and we too. I have heard in the seminaries that many theologians realize that Christ represents the unity of repentant angels, repenting for degrading our soul originating (one of Heavens) into a Warfield (Rev-12, 7) for proud power rivalry. Christ did not mention it as it is not a sin by 10 commandment standards & ignored it as it may be a stumbling block for common people.

Let me explain. There are many heavens, higher and lower. Eternal, almighty are absolute terms for reference. They are impossible like an absolute point or a straight line Our Heaven was first a democracy of love and power sharing. Humble father- mother spirit reigned there. But latter pride crept in replacing that spirit by a proud despotic glory hungry god spirit. In reaction then rebellion started. We were drawn in that fight and hatred, which spoiled us as exemplified by Adam and Eve. They were driven out of Heaven by the likes of them and later we too. The same thing happens in the history of nations here too, first democracy, then autocracy, then despotic before disintegration.
Seeing the degeneration of Heaven, some saner angels repented and turned back to Heavenly Father and fatherhood rejecting lordship. He then sent them to us in the unity of Christ, to repair the harm by humility and cross. That unity is now buildings a new Heaven by cross– humility – sacrifice and inviting us.
But devil, the unity of unrepentant rebel angels is enemy of the unity of Christ. But they cannot kill or break apart this Heavenly Father given strong love bonded unity. Instead, they are breaking up by the strength of its love and some of its angels are coming to the repentance of Christ. Christianity is nothing but prodigal sons’ journey back to Heavenly Father and fatherhood, of human and angels from lordship,. We look before, not bothering to look behind. We follow the unity Christ, to atone for destroying our old Heaven together with pride spirit, devil. We know that we are responsible of the creation’s fall. As one progresses more in Christ he becomes more aware of his imperfections-sins which are progressively revealed.
So we try to liberate them from the sex infatuation of this body, derived from microscopic zygote, by spiritual love. By it, we have to build a new regenerated spiritual body worthy for the new heaven. He promised a place for us there. For this cross – repentance for our past transgressions is essential. the day of dogmatic christianity is gone and abiding fruit bearing one has come. Evolve or vanish.

[Lost]

I am curious what your theological system is? How do you balance Buddhism with the unrefutable word of God prohibiting pagan practices? Perhaps you are able to cut out the pagan aspects of Buddhism? I'm curious
My three years of Indian theology and then three years of xtian theology coupled with 30 years of mission work have given me a concept of a fruit bearing heaven of repentance. In this land of Buddha and the derivative Hinduism we must adjust ourselves. Judaism also inherited hell and heaven doctrine from Persians. Buddha preaches preexistence of soul and atonement. Christ also does that in prodigal son tale.
Christ existed before this earthly life and we too. I have heard in the seminaries that many theologians realize that Christ represents the unity of repentant angels, repenting for degrading our soul originating (one of Heavens) into a Warfield (Rev-12, 7) for proud power rivalry. Christ did not mention it as it is not a sin by 10 commandment standards & ignored it as it may be a stumbling block for common people.

Let me explain. There are many heavens, higher and lower. Eternal, almighty are absolute terms for reference. They are impossible like an absolute point or a straight line Our Heaven was first a democracy of love and power sharing. Humble father- mother spirit reigned there. But latter pride crept in replacing that spirit by a proud despotic glory hungry god spirit. In reaction then rebellion started. We were drawn in that fight and hatred, which spoiled us as exemplified by Adam and Eve. They were driven out of Heaven by the likes of them and later we too. The same thing happens in the history of nations here too, first democracy, then autocracy, then despotic before disintegration.
Seeing the degeneration of Heaven, some saner angels repented and turned back to Heavenly Father and fatherhood rejecting lordship. He then sent them to us in the unity of Christ, to repair the harm by humility and cross. That unity is now buildings a new Heaven by cross– humility – sacrifice and inviting us.
But devil, the unity of unrepentant rebel angels is enemy of the unity of Christ. But they cannot kill or break apart this Heavenly Father given strong love bonded unity. Instead, they are breaking up by the strength of its love and some of its angels are coming to the repentance of Christ. Christianity is nothing but prodigal sons’ journey back to Heavenly Father and fatherhood, of human and angels from lordship,. We look before, not bothering to look behind. We follow the unity Christ, to atone for destroying our old Heaven together with pride spirit, devil. We know that we are responsible of the creation’s fall. As one progresses more in Christ he becomes more aware of his imperfections-sins which are progressively revealed.
So we try to liberate them from the sex infatuation of this body, derived from microscopic zygote, by spiritual love. By it, we have to build a new regenerated spiritual body worthy for the new heaven. He promised a place for us there. For this cross – repentance for our past transgressions is essential. the day of dogmatic christianity is gone and abiding fruit bearing one has come. Evolve or vanish. [/QUOTE]

what the heck? "Judaism also inherited hell and heaven doctrine from Persians"?
This is unorthodox theology if ever I heard it.
Better move this thread or something.

[Timothy Leary]

You know, when I first read this title, I thought it said 'Identity of the Great Gore of Babylon' :hehe:

[spitndirt]

My guess? Protestant Christianity; they're so eager to point a finger at the Roman Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon... perhaps they are really trying to divert attention away from themselves. :wink: Tee-hee, just kidding... then again, you never know do ya? :teeth:

Mystery, Babylon the Great, (Catholic) Mother of (Protestant) Harlots.....etc.

If you consider historical fact the apostate Catholic church 'gave birth' to a myriad of Protestant denominations (the reformation). Todays Catholic hierarchy does refer to the protestant denominations as their 'wayward daughters'....thereby viewing themselves as a 'mother' to them.

Interesting :smile:

[stephen goswami]

Eve was the first whore of the devil. It is not mentioned that she repented. Therefore, we can presume she did not. She suffered for it, but that does not necessarily make one repentant. From her we all are whores. But, those who confessed are regenerated by the blood of Christ. Visible Churches as organizations never confess that. But some individuals in and outside those, confess and become regenerated and saved.

[barnasha]

Eve was the first whore of the devil. It is not mentioned that she repented. Therefore, we can presume she did not. She suffered for it, but that does not necessarily make one repentant. From her we all are whores. But, those who confessed are regenerated by the blood of Christ. Visible Churches as organizations never confess that. But some individuals in and outside those, confess and become regenerated and saved.

But Eve was [made from] part of Adam, who committed the sin.

[Okieshowedem]

The protestants are the daugthers of the Catholic whore, they too will take part in her punishment.
The one that come of of this whore religion still live by the every word written in the Scriptures.


Okieshowedem

[stephen goswami]

But Eve was [made from] part of Adam, who committed the sin.
Who incite other is more than accomplice. So Eve was a greater sinner. Now, I think the greatest whore is now the show and mass media business, where they are exposing their flesh, falsehood and appearance wholesale to incite lust for income and advantage. Her daughters are spread allover the world. All the merchants are bringing her treasures. They can’t trade without her. She is spoiling the whole world by intruding into every corner of the world, every moment without respite.
:eek:

[whacky888]

How is the faithful city become a harlot

Interesting possibly to note that prior to the 14th century AD, the word "harlot" was defined as a "male lecher", not a female at all.

Protestants tend to pin this whole Whore of Babylon thing on the Catholic church, but, they will defend that Bible the Catholic church put together with extreme and obnoxious obstinance.

Harlots are the various branches and offshoots of a "mother church". Protestantism, however, is not a branch or offshoot of the Catholic church.

You really have to go a bit further "north" to find it. You want to find a church with a whole bunch of "daughters"? You may want to consider the good ol' Church of England.

I said "may". Because, all of Christianity, including Catholicism actually branched off of a certain faith practiced by what we refer to as Hebrews.

It certainly qualifies as a faith with a whole lot of "Babylonian" influence.

"When you see the abomination that causes desolation standing in the Holy place, spoken of by Daniel the prophet", head for the hills folks!

It is not merely "standing". It is standing and "waving". Hint. Americans call theirs "Old Glory".

How many times do they have to be told about that "star of Molech", "Remphan", or "Chuin". That star is an abomination to be sure, as it represents not only the god Molech, it is also symbolizes the planet Saturn. Let's remove the "r" from Saturn, and what do we see?

Satun. Man writes the words, but, don't think for a second that Providence does not have some fun playing with them.

What day is the Hebrew sabbath? Saturns day. Yeouch!

Kind of a "lifeless" planet with 12 moons.

If you are going to pick a day to honor something in the galaxy, I think Sunday would be a much better choice.

And, the "daughter" churches have committed their share of abominations throughout history.

And, Rome is not the only city that "sits on seven hills".

Guess what?

So does Jerusalem.

Why is it ok to bash the Catholic religion, but, if you say anything about the Hebrews you are branded an "anti-semite"?

Jesus did. And, it got Him killed.

St. Stephen did. He got himself stoned to death. I have vivid memories of that one.

"many of the first will be last, and the last first".

peace

"steven" eden

[Frogwarrior]

Your Mom is the great whore of Babylon!

[whacky888]

what the heck? "Judaism also inherited hell and heaven doctrine from Persians"?
This is unorthodox theology if ever I heard it.
Better move this thread or something.

Perhaps you have never heard of Zaruthustra or Zoroastrianism. A Persian religion pre-dating Judaism by hundreds of years. And, yes Judaism borrowed quite a bit from this religion. But, I do not believe that the Hebrew religion teaches the concept of hell. The Persians had a concept of good (Ahura Mazda) v evil (Ahriman), as well as heaven and hell.

As this religion moved westward, it evolved into what is known as Mithraism. And, Christianity certainly borrowed a whole lot from this elitist faith.

[Zguy28]

If you notice, God's People (Israel/the church) is symbolized by a woman in more than one place.
However, as a woman may betray her lover, so you have betrayed Me, house of Israel. [This is] the LORD's declaration.
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of 12 stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in labor and agony to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: There was a great fiery red dragon having seven heads and 10 horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 His tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth. And the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth he might devour her child. 5 But she gave birth to a Son—a male who is going to shepherd all nations with an iron scepter —and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, to be fed there for 1,260 days.

The entire institutional church, who has become the worlds lover, is the whore of Babylon. Its not just the Roman Church or the Protestant, but all who have become like the world.

[stephen goswami]

Whores are those who hook people by their infatuations and weakness. So the stupid flesh infatuation is the thorn for Christians to remove which st Paul prayed.
Decent people cover their flesh to control this in self and in others. But in this last times when our originating heaven is bursting like a supernova due to the last stage of infight, we the fleeing immense number of refugees here(devil’s horde) have become totally spoilt. Our all organizations have become harlots of infatuation and desires. So Christ said that, when he will come at last he may not find faith at all. We are so weak now to resist captivation by flesh, sex etc.
See the shameless attire and behavior of so called Christian girls in general. They are drawing all to sin and fornication. Nonchristians are coming to hate Christians for that seeing them through the media and public places. Muslims are reasonably most infuriated by it.
But we can only seek the help of Christ, the seed of new heaven, to counter it. May be, st. Paul also complained of it to Christ. But he said to me “unless you regain the paradise lost in you, in a renewed form, the spiritual love, that deliverance will be harmful, as it will open ways for worse evils. So exercise the little love you are granted, and then it will grow to displace every stupidity. But for palliative measures, when infatuations get upper hand, you can do what saints did-fasting, abstinence, chastisement etc. But for lasting victory practicing spiritual love is imperative”.

[mastralvarado]

Whores are those who hook people by their infatuations and weakness.
Could it be people who use the inherent weakness of discernment (of normal people) between metaphoric and hyperbolic rethoric?

[JCourage]

Who is this prostitute?

Rev. 17

"1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. 9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.


The spirit of isis, or some other goddess? Baal? Al gore's Mother Earth Goddess?

[mastralvarado]

The spirit of isis, or some other goddess? Baal? Al gore's Mother Earth Goddess?

Pauline Christianity.

[barnasha]

Pauline Christianity.

I don't think what you refer to as 'Pauline christianity' could be attributed to Paul, it was rather the people who took Paul's personal expressions and revelations and exalted them to the status of religious doctrine that made the mistakes.

[stephen goswami]

Hi,



So if the Catholic Church indeed be the Whore of Babylon, the Protestant Church(the illegitimate bastard child, as you term it ) is forgiven because he come out of her long ago .. .

It is the nature of proud people to point fingers at others. Are not we all whores and whoremongers? Every human being is fallen from heaven after prostituting God given higher things to the low devil, the pride. Are they not watching on mass Media’s whore-actors, actresses, singers and dancers exciting evil passions? Whenever we use a faculty for higher creativity for lower futile excitement it is whoring. Every couple does it using birth control or just irresponsible sex.
Our churches are not exceptions. Greater the church, greater is whoring. But our consolation is that Christ came for the prostitutes and sinners. Only those who repent and atone to prove the repentance is regenerated by Christ. Problem is that churches don’t repent; rather they project themselves as holy and medium for Christ.
Coming out of any corrupt church or society does not justify us, rather it can make us worse, but our repentance justifies. But many individual Christians and pastors repent and atone even to martyrdom. Since Catholic Church is the biggest among the church, so it can be called the biggest whore.
As for mass, churches had made an idolatrous ceremony of it. Christ asked us to partake of his self-sacrificing spirit, his spiritual flesh and blood, not just bread and wine.

[John Goddard]

Pauline Christianity.

It is Israel that rejects Jesus, spearheaded by Jerusalem, with Samaria the Ten Tribes scattered among Gentiles, being the Ten Horns of their lover Gentile Beast "Babylon."

Which means, Jews who look to secular Rome/UN/UK/USA/etc. to save them, rather than God and Jesus their Messiah.

--------------------------

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Ezekiel 23:2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Ezekiel 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

Ezekiel 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

--------------------------

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 18:19 ...for in one hour is she made desolate.

[jo7241974]

Hi mickiel,

[QUOTE](1)John says this woman is concentrated in Rome, but Christianity as a whole is not , unless ofcourse by Christian you mean the Catholic Church in particular because only the Catholic Church is headquartered in Rome... Hmmmm.
Most of the rest of Christianity is structured no where near the City of Seven Hills , unfortunately for you, and does not accept the authority of the Pope. As an example, Evangelicals live mainly in the Bible Belt, in the good ol USA .

What if the whore of Babylon is ANY church that has only part of the Truth? Most members of every religion today are satisfied with what their church teaches. There are even many different churches claiming to be “one” church because they have five common core beliefs, but argue about everything else. Even amongst themselves, denominations in the “one” church point to yet other Christian religions saying they are not Christian. So this great confusion causes so much distrust, finger pointing, judging (which will get everyone who judges in trouble), and thus leading their members astray.

Perhaps there is confusion in calling the RCC the whore because it is based in Rome; however, the RCC is considered by most to be the most ancient of Christian religions….and from there sprang other religions, and from those religions sprang more religions. Thereby, all the Christian religions have taken on their own interpretation of the Truth and thus blinding all the Christians on the earth into thinking they have enough of the Truth to be “correct enough”. This cannot be correct if you are to believe Paul—leaving the “correct enough” churches lacking in Truth. While busy trying to discover who the whore of Babylon is, you have all failed to look at yourselves.

This is not irreparable; however, open your hearts and minds to the possibilities of the Truth being here – you just need to diligently seek it.

(2)If ALL of Christianity is the Great Whore of Babylon(including Catholicism), then John's Revelation is redundant because there would be no believers left to harken the words of his prophecy. Remember His words in Rev. 1:2presupposes that there would be true Christians in the world to read and hear the Revelation.

Christ has restored His Church on the earth. Unfortunately, the strongest opposers (both RCs and Protestants) claim to be Christians. Yet the LDS Church IS Christian. Over 30 millions Christian LDS members have read and heard Revelation. Therefore, to claim there would be no true Christians to read and hear the Revelation is incorrect.

(3)It is also not true that Christianity(by that I suppose you mean non-Catholics) is more powerful than Catholicism, not by a long shot.

So logically we must reject your claim that Christianity is the Great Whore of Babylon because the description does not fit it like a glove; unless ofcourse by Christianity you mean Catholicism in particular, but that would require further exploration, woudn't it?.

So logically I would hope you DO require more exploration for yourself. This is at the very least, something to consider.

[mastralvarado]

I don't think what you refer to as 'Pauline christianity' could be attributed to Paul, it was rather the people who took Paul's personal expressions and revelations and exalted them to the status of religious doctrine that made the mistakes.

So by this you mean, "Paul was right" ? God inspired Paul to write as he did so that the people who came after him whom took religion as a means to corrupt actually did so.

This make sense. The "great whore" has to have existed from the beginning of the world. People thoroughout all ages who took oral and prophetic wisdom and twisted it to conform to their agenda must be the people of "pauline christianity" as well.

Better fix that pauline christianity to read "pauline christianity". But what is true, is that the author of revelation encoded the term to refer to something more sinister given that in his prophetic vision he foresaw the consequences of the people who read Paul's teaching and used it to promote violence, hatred toward those who did not believe as they did all while hypocritically siding with those who had a better political and military vision, wealth and resources.

Therefore, in order to stabilize the "religion of peace" that Christianity came to offer non-christians within reach of the Roman Legions, and the personification of the ONE God for all of mankind and the visible and invisible is what caused the revelation of the Final Prophet (since God despises prophecy).

But, as you and everyone knows, there will always exist people who are the epitomy of hypocricy. Paul was writing with a manner of speech which any one who loves a world in black and white, would be compelled to be the driving vehicle for the propagation of Christianity.

The problem for me with this is that I believe that Jesus (S) [i.e. Christ] was not sent to all of the people of the world but specifically to the Children of Israel so that they may continue to be a Day Star for all nations. Also, there is very good reason for me to believe that Paul blasphemed. He wrote "For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

If a person listens to what he reads in order to verify the soundness of such a saying, he or she would find it very unbefitting to repeat this saying of paul many, many times. Since what others here would object is that "foolishness" is a hyperbole of Paul to depict God's attributes, I would ask those people to repeat in their mind the same thing Paul wrote seventy times seven. I would not recommend any church or person to say such a thing even if it were a phrase of a sentence.

Allah knows best,

m

[mastralvarado]

It is Israel that rejects Jesus, spearheaded by Jerusalem, with Samaria the Ten Tribes scattered among Gentiles, being the Ten Horns of their lover Gentile Beast "Babylon."

Which means, Jews who look to secular Rome/UN/UK/USA/etc. to save them, rather than God and Jesus their Messiah.

--------------------------

Revelation 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Ezekiel 23:2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:

Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Ezekiel 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

Ezekiel 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

--------------------------

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 18:19 ...for in one hour is she made desolate.

As as I said before, be careful what you write here because one can't connote a Jew with anything negative these days.

However, there is a flaw with this argument. Jews (i.e. Hebrews) have not existed as they are known today even before the Deluge. It is then a contingency that the Great Babylon is necessarily an evil spirit that is a result of Pauline-like behaviour on part of those who are never able to return to the "Father". Paul, however, did return to the Apostles (i.e. the elders) and obeyed them as if nothing had happened (Acts 21:24). Maybe Paul acted as a prodigal but repented and became as a Lamb. Therefore, Paul knew that he would be forgiven despite of his "wicked" teachings.

As Stephen Goswami wrote, "we are all whores". I would have to agree with him. We all at some point or another become judgmental of the "others" or even God Himself (God forbid) to the point when we become "prodigals" in some respect.

The great whore can be reduced to all that is conducive to separation from God as a result of this comparative analysis of Pauline Vs. Christian teachings taken "as is".

Both Jesus (S) and Paul wrote using hyperbole
Both Jesus (S) and Paul wrote using metaphors
Both Jesus (S) and Paul used references of the OT

However Paul used some references liberally while Jesus parabolically (S), as in Acts 13:33 in reference to Psalm 2:7 versus Jesus (S) use of the Parable of the prodigal Son to reference Isaiah chapter 10-12.

¿If Paul is saved by Jesus's blood and Jesus (s) is saved by water why mix the blood with the water?

This leads one to believe that Paul (and not the Apostles) was really in charge in spreading Christianity to the gentiles. Therefore, Jesus knew that the Apostles would play a minor role aforetime. Why then would he call St. Peter his Rock???

Matthew 16:18

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock[1] I will build my church, and the gates of hell[2] shall not prevail against it.


“Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives Him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great.”

If I were a Christian I'd say Its time to stop whoring with the teachings of Paul and stick to Jesus-only teachings.

regards,

m

[1]The Greek words for Peter and rock sound similar [2]Greek the gates of Hades

[John Goddard]

However, there is a flaw with this argument. Jews (i.e. Hebrews) have not existed as they are known today even before the Deluge.

Jews are Jews, after the Covenant of Moses. They exist today same as they did with Ezekiel.


It is then a contingency that the Great Babylon is necessarily an evil spirit that is a result of Pauline-like behaviour on part of those who are never able to return to the "Father". Paul, however, did return to the Apostles (i.e. the elders) and obeyed them as if nothing had happened (Acts 21:24). Maybe Paul acted as a prodigal but repented and became as a Lamb. Therefore, Paul knew that he would be forgiven despite of his "wicked" teachings.



If I were a Christian I'd say Its time to stop whoring with the teachings of Paul and stick to Jesus-only teachings.

There is no difference between their teachings.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The problem is you are confused by the line of the Church that Jesus is like an animal sacrifice.

Read properly, the NT says that you are saved from your sins when you repent, and Jesus gives you mercy for them. Since Jesus is Messiah and King of the World, he is also Judge. This is the water.

But -- Jesus could not be in that position of Judge and Messiah unless he obeyed God to the death and died as a martyr. That's where the blood comes in.

So your argument doesn't hold up logically or biblically.

------------------------

Biblically, the Harlot of Babylon is already named and consistent from Ezekiel to Matthew to Revelation, and there is no reason to go looking elsewhere.

Ezekiel 23:44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.

Ezekiel 23:45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Ezekiel 23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Jerusalem and those who embrace attitudes of Jews against God and Jesus are clearly the Harlot, then and now, and facing doom if they continue to reject Jesus as Messiah.

[mastralvarado]

Jews are Jews, after the Covenant of Moses. They exist today same as they did with Ezekiel.





There is no difference between their teachings.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The problem is you are confused by the line of the Church that Jesus is like an animal sacrifice.

Read properly, the NT says that you are saved from your sins when you repent, and Jesus gives you mercy for them. Since Jesus is Messiah and King of the World, he is also Judge. This is the water.

But -- Jesus could not be in that position of Judge and Messiah unless he obeyed God to the death and died as a martyr. That's where the blood comes in.

So your argument doesn't hold up logically or biblically.

------------------------

Biblically, the Harlot of Babylon is already named and consistent from Ezekiel to Matthew to Revelation, and there is no reason to go looking elsewhere.

Ezekiel 23:44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.

Ezekiel 23:45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

Matthew 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Ezekiel 23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Jerusalem and those who embrace attitudes of Jews against God and Jesus are clearly the Harlot, then and now, and facing doom if they continue to reject Jesus as Messiah.

Technically, Jews are descendants of Judah. Hebrews are speakers of Hebrew. Judah was a hebrew speaker. The evidence in the bible cannot restrict the title "Babylon the Great" to the Jewish people since there is a prophetic tendency that points out that since the creation of the world "in her it the blood of the prophets and the saints" was found. So in reality anyone can be a "whore" as long as he or she is in a state of separation of God as opposed to a state of communion (submission).

Please do not confuse submission with sub-mission which is what the english language tends to do to an english reader. There can also be whores who call themselves muslims John. Please forgive me if I call you by your first name.

Revelation 18:24
"And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”

Do you suppose this relates only to those who have been slain since the Creation or just since the creation of the "whore"?

Regards,

m

[John Goddard]

Do you suppose this relates only to those who have been slain since the Creation or just since the creation of the "whore"?

Only since creation of the Whore, which is the Kingdom of David ruled by Babylon and its 7 incarnations/heads.

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Jeremiah 25:10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

------------------------

Jeremiah 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

Jeremiah 25:16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

Jeremiah 25:17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:

Jeremiah 25:18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

------------------------

So as you see, it's a replay of Jerusalem's unfaithfulness to God in favor of Gentile power, and also, destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

Ezekiel 21:26-27 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

Babylon, Rome, Beast. Jerusalem overturned three times.

Since Jesus, Jerusalem is overturned twice, already being overturned by Babylon:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

So we have one more to go.

Therefore:

Jerusalem and those identified as Jews are the Whore

Ten Tribes of Israel/Samaria scattered to Gentile nations no longer identifying as Jews are the Ten Horns of the Beast.

The Seven Heads of the Beast are Gentile kingdoms since Babylon ruling over Jews.

The Beast is Babylon, and whichever head after that is ruling over Jews at the time.

Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

So you are correct that Jews aren't the only ones in the wrong, but in these prophecies, Jews are the Whore and Gentiles are the Beast. Their coalition against Jesus together are the False Prophet who has everyone take the Mark of the Beast, which is simply denying that Jesus is Messiah, in favor of secular kingdoms.

Jeremiah 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Etc.

[mastralvarado]

Only since creation of the Whore, which is the Kingdom of David ruled by Babylon and its 7 incarnations/heads.

Revelation 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Jeremiah 25:10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

------------------------

Jeremiah 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

Jeremiah 25:16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.

Jeremiah 25:17 Then took I the cup at the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:

Jeremiah 25:18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

Revelation 14:9-10 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

------------------------

So as you see, it's a replay of Jerusalem's unfaithfulness to God in favor of Gentile power, and also, destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

Ezekiel 21:26-27 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

Babylon, Rome, Beast. Jerusalem overturned three times.

Since Jesus, Jerusalem is overturned twice, already being overturned by Babylon:

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

So we have one more to go.

Therefore:

Jerusalem and those identified as Jews are the Whore

Ten Tribes of Israel/Samaria scattered to Gentile nations no longer identifying as Jews are the Ten Horns of the Beast.

The Seven Heads of the Beast are Gentile kingdoms since Babylon ruling over Jews.

The Beast is Babylon, and whichever head after that is ruling over Jews at the time.

Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

So you are correct that Jews aren't the only ones in the wrong, but in these prophecies, Jews are the Whore and Gentiles are the Beast. Their coalition against Jesus together are the False Prophet who has everyone take the Mark of the Beast, which is simply denying that Jesus is Messiah, in favor of secular kingdoms.

Jeremiah 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Etc.

Dear Goddy,

You wrote:
"Only since creation of the Whore, which is the Kingdom of David ruled by Babylon and its 7 incarnations/heads."
How shall I say this, if you believe that God created the very thing that he was to destroy as it is with the Harlot of Babylon then there is absolutely no free-will. There is even an Islamic saying that Adam (s) gave 70 years of his life so that David (s) would be born [1]. But if you believe that the Harlot is something more abstract, transcendental and liberal that permeates the reptile part of the brain in humans because of the temptations of the Devil, you could say free-will exists because this "whore" was, is not, and will be for a little time.

I'd say that the Harlot should not be judged because in one hour its judgement shall come. What in the world could possibly be this judgment if it is to be understood to happen in this world? Be my guest and judge for your self what could possibly be the catalyst for such a quick downfall. Take your pick:

a) the appearance of Jesus (S) as Christians claim.
b) a holocaust (this would have to be a really quick holocaust)
c) an exodus-like diaspora where roles are reversed and Jews become the tyrants
d) ....
e) ad infinitum

You can fill me in if you like on all possible outcomes. My hypothesis is that the Great Whore will be judged in one hour because of the near infinity of its sins.

Revelation 18:1
After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory.

You wrote:
"So you are correct that Jews aren't the only ones in the wrong."

Who do you think you are judging others by such standards?

Luke 6:37“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Regards,

m

[1] Midrash Jalkut, p. 12. (http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bkt/bkt04.htm)

[Kelp]

Just a heads up, Pythagoras has been banned for like 12,000 years. Just thought I'd mention it.

[John Goddard]

You can fill me in if you like on all possible outcomes. My hypothesis is that the Great Whore will be judged in one hour because of the near infinity of its sins.

The Bible tells you. Jews are double-crossed by Gentiles once again, as they were with Babylon and Rome.

Ezekiel 23:22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

Revelation 17:6 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


Who do you think you are judging others by such standards?

I didn't invent it, that's what the Bible and Quran say.

Romans 11:7-8 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Quran 4:46 Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.

You can include all wayward believers, Christians and Muslims, among harlots to God, in general.

But the Harlot of prophecy is Jews who trust secularism of Gentiles to achieve their tikkun olum without Jesus and God, and get burned one last time.

[mastralvarado]

The Bible tells you. Jews are double-crossed by Gentiles once again, as they were with Babylon and Rome.

Ezekiel 23:22 Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;

Revelation 17:6 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.



I didn't invent it, that's what the Bible and Quran say.

Romans 11:7-8 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Quran 4:46 Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.

You can include all wayward believers, Christians and Muslims, among harlots to God, in general.

But the Harlot of prophecy is Jews who trust secularism of Gentiles to achieve their tikkun olum without Jesus and God, and get burned one last time.

There is no such a thing as a "Harlot of prophecy" that is a real person. God does not hate the sinner just the sin.

A metaphorical Harlot cannot do anything. Hitler could easily use the term "harlot" to depict a specific group of people such as jews. Therefore, I'd rather not speculate as to what the Harlot is in respect to anything concrete. The sins that the Harlot caused, does not (in me) and will for a little time are next-to-eternal.

Revelation 18:17

7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury,
so give her a like measure of torment and mourning,
since in her heart she says,
‘I sit as a queen,
I am no widow,
and mourning I shall never see.’

Isaiah 14:12-
12 “How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
above the stars of God
I will set my throne on high;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
in the far reaches of the north; [2]
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’

Please, *stop* speculating on whom the Harlot of Prophecy is Goddy. Else I may have to call you anti-Semitic.:tongue:

regards,

m
______
[2] 14:13 Or in the remote parts of Zaphon

[LambofElohim]

Greetings,

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT is not a church, religion or even Rome. It is the nation of Israel or Jerusalem itself. She is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. She is not called THE GREAT WHORE OF BABYLON. This is man just being stupid. She rides the beast which is composed of seven religions of the world that Israel sits on top of the beliefs of. One of the religions is also the belly or body of the beast also it is Judaism and one of the heads as well. The seven mountains are not the "seven hills" of Rome as man so conveniently satisfies their pride. They are referring to the churches themselves and the places each belief began. Every temple was built upon a high place or "mountain or high hill". If man really knew what Revelation was about they wouldn't ask so many questions about it.

John never at one time says that Rome is the location of the HARLOT; that is what man thinks that John is saying, the John from John that never was beheaded not the disciple, that man thinks is. To Elohim it is man's belief system that is the beast and referred to as "kings of the earth".

"and I John went to fall down before the angel, who is the (Lamb of God) and he tells him, "Bow not down to me nor worship me for I am your fellow bretheren as are the prophets...worship Elohim".

"For in those days shall the devil, "the LORD", send strong delusion that you believe a lie."

This is the devil's game and his aim is to deceive anyone he can the more the merrier and he has a whole world full of them. "God" will not send any delusion to believe a lie; "God" wants man to know The Truth that their beliefs are this delusional lie. These beliefs were begun by Israel. Paul was sent delusion also and deceived by a voice. The devil is the author of confusion and he began at Babel, confounding the languages of man and scattering them. Now he continues by way of religions.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton