A fresh look at Revelation 14:11

[seer]

A well known proof text for eternal hell:

KJV version:

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Young's Literal Version:

"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name."

First, notice that Young here has the "ages" in the plural. Now if this is in the plural does the "forevers" of "forevers" makes sense to you? No, John here is speaking of "ages" and most (if not all) ages in scripture have a beginning and end.


Now every body, go to your bible and see what they cross reference this text to.

Yes Isaiah 34:10. That is because John borrows this language from Isaiah. So let's look at that passage:

Vs.9,10

"Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!It will not be quenched night and day;its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate;no one will ever pass through it again."

This is speaking of the future destruction of Edom. This actually took place about 500 B.C. when Edom was destroyed by the Nabatean Arabs.

A few points:

1. This "land" was were southern Israel and Jordan are today.

2. Is the land still burning? Is the smoke still rising? Is the unquenchable fire still in operation? Of course not - you can travel there and see for yourself.

3. It says that no man will EVER pass through it again. Yet today men pass through it every day.

Of course this was the case in John's day as well. So it is very doubtful that in using this Jewish idom that John meant eternity. This is simply figurative language for destruction.

[Solly]

Today @ 11:24 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95087#post95087)
seer:

A well known proof text for eternal hell:

KJV version:

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Young's Literal Version:

"and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name."

First, notice that Young here has the "ages" in the plural. Now if this is in the plural does the "forevers" of "forevers" makes sense to you? No, John here is speaking of "ages" and most (if not all) ages in scripture have a beginning and end.


"Ages of the ages" is synonymous with "forever". Unless you think this verse also refers to a limited time:

Rev 11.15 (LITV) And the seventh angel trumpeted. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of the world became our Lord's, even of His Christ; and He shall reign to the ages of the ages.

or this:

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

You would have to work very hard to show that it means "for ever" in relation to God, Christ, and the saints, and yet is limited with reference to the wicked.

[seer]

Rev 11.15 (LITV) And the seventh angel trumpeted. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of the world became our Lord's, even of His Christ; and He shall reign to the ages of the ages.

You made my point Solly. Christ does not reign forever.

1 Corinthians 15:25

"For he (Christ) must reign UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet."


or this:

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Young's literal:

"and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages."



Saying that God or Christ lives to the ages or through the ages,or is the God of the ages does not say that He only lives for the ages. We sing "rock of ages" that does not mean He is not the rock of eternity also.

But back to my point, you agree that the forevers of Isaiah 34:10 can not literally mean forever - correct?

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 10:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95524#post95524)
seer:
You made my point Solly. Christ does not reign forever.
1 Corinthians 15:25
"For he (Christ) must reign UNTIL he has put all his enemies under his feet."

WRONG. The text does not imply that Christ will stop reigning, it points out that Christ will reigh in spite of seeming opposition, until they are all put down. Paul is addressing the faith of believers now, not addressing the matter of the eternal age.

Young's literal:

"and the four living creatures said, `Amen!' and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages."

Saying that God or Christ lives to the ages or through the ages,or is the God of the ages does not say that He only lives for the ages. We sing "rock of ages" that does not mean He is not the rock of eternity also.

You simply confused me on what you are trying to say here...

But back to my point, you agree that the forevers of Isaiah 34:10 can not literally mean forever - correct? [/QUOTE]

Why not? give your understanding of what is being referred to here. For me, this is God's coming judgment upon the sinful world, pictured as judgment upon the nation of Edom.
For the indignation of Jehovah will fall upon all nations, and burning wrath upon all their host; He has laid the ban upon them, delivered them to the slaughter. And their slain are cast away, and their corpses - their stench will arise, and mountains melt with their blood.
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:
This is the imagery John is drawing upon, and we see it through NT eyes as being just that, a view of the end of the wicked.

[seer]

The text does not imply that Christ will stop reigning, it points out that Christ will reigh in spite of seeming opposition, until they are all put down. Paul is addressing the faith of believers now, not addressing the matter of the eternal age.

We of course that is exactly what it says. Christ will reign UNTIL. Then He gives it all up to the Father so that God will be ALL in ALL. Vs.28

You simply confused me on what you are trying to say here...

Saying that God is the God of the ages does not mean that God is limited to the ages. Or that He is not eternally God.

But back to my point, you agree that the forevers of Isaiah 34:10 can not literally mean forever - correct?

Why not? give your understanding of what is being referred to here. For me, this is God's coming judgment upon the sinful world, pictured as judgment upon the nation of Edom.

Linking the two is an assumption. Isaiah gets very specific about Edom. But my question was more direct. Is the land of Edom still burning? Will no one pass through that land forever?

And if Edom is a picture of the future destruction of the nations then we know that forever is a limited amount of time, because forever was limited in the Edom passage.

[Solly]

Today @ 11:47 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=95947#post95947)
seer:
We of course that is exactly what it says. Christ will reign UNTIL. Then He gives it all up to the Father so that God will be ALL in ALL. Vs.28

So you are saying Christ is only a temporary King?

Saying that God is the God of the ages does not mean that God is limited to the ages. Or that He is not eternally God.

That has been my whole point, but not yours.
Saying that hell is the hell of the ages does not mean that hell is limited to the ages. Or that it is not eternally hell.

Further, on Isaiah 34
For the indignation of Jehovah will fall upon all nations, and burning wrath upon all their host; He has laid the ban upon them, delivered them to the slaughter. And their slain are cast away, and their corpses - their stench will arise, and mountains melt with their blood.
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:

Linking the two is an assumption.

The you must blame John, I would rather trust his judgment in drawing upon this prophecy, that it means the sinful world, than yours in trying to decry the doctrine of eternal punishment.

Isaiah gets very specific about Edom. But my question was more direct. Is the land of Edom still burning? Will no one pass through that land forever?

So where is the nation of Edom today? He is referring to a nation, not a plot of land. they have been judged, which is what the imagery refers to, and so will sinful mankind.

[seer]

We of course that is exactly what it says. Christ will reign UNTIL. Then He gives it all up to the Father so that God will be ALL in ALL. Vs.28

So you are saying Christ is only a temporary King?

I don't know for sure. But clearly it says that He must reign "until" and that He GIVES UP the Kingdom to the Father. So that God will be ALL in ALL.

Saying that God is the God of the ages does not mean that God is limited to the ages. Or that He is not eternally God.

That has been my whole point, but not yours.
Saying that hell is the hell of the ages does not mean that hell is limited to the ages. Or that it is not eternally hell.

I agree,but that was my point, it is doubtful that John had eternity in view here. Though hell may still be eternal.

So where is the nation of Edom today? He is referring to a nation, not a plot of land. they have been judged, which is what the imagery refers to, and so will sinful mankind.

Solly, it says that the LAND will be buring, and it's smoke (the land's) will go up forever. And I think it is clear that what no one passes through forever is the same land.

Forever simply does not always mean forever - in the Old or New Testaments;

Check these out:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).