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Krusader
December 30th 2004, 03:03 PM
As many know, in 1843 some brass plates were "discovered" in a mound in Kinderhook, Illinois, and brought to Joseph Smith for translation. Unfortunately, Smith was murdered prior to his completing the translation. However, in William Clayton's journal, and later as printed in the History of the Church, vol. 5, pg. 372, it was asserted:

"I (Smith) insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook...I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendent of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."

Unfortunately, for the Mormons, on April, 1855, W.P. Harris, who was one of the nine witnesses to the discovery of the plates, wrote a letter in which he stated that the plates were bogus. He said that Bridge Whitten had told him that he had cut and prepared the plates and that R. Wiley had engraved them.

Later, W. Fugate, who was also one of the nine witnesses, wrote that the plates were "humbug, "gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself," in an effort to trick the Mormon prophet.

One of the plates was discovered in the 1960's at the Chicago Museum. Non-destructive tests on this surviving plate indicated that "the dimensions, tolerances, composition and workmanship are consistent with the facilities of an 1843 blacksmith shop," (George Lawrence, a Mormon physicist).

In 1980 the Mormon scholar, Stanley P. Kimball was able to secure permission from the Chicago Historical Society for the recommended "destructive test" on the plate. The Aug, 1981, Ensign reported: "A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith...appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church hisotry, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was - a nineteenth century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient-looking characters that had been etched into the plates...As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate...is not of ancient origin...we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy, (copper and zinc) typical of the mid-nineteenth century; whereas the :brass: of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin.

Interestingly, the Warsaw Signal, May 22, 1844, reported the fact that Joseph was actually preparing to print a translation of the plates, which is verified by a broadside published by the Mormon newspaper, The Nauvoo Neighbor in June 1843, which stated that "The contents of the Plates, together with a fac-simile of the same, will be published in the "Times and Seasons," as soon as the translation is completed."

In any case, it is obvious that the plates were bogus, and that the planned deception worked - Smith was translating bogus plates!

Along with the Book of Abraham fiasco, it would appear that the Kinderhook plates provide additional proof that Smith had no gift as a "translator," as he claimed. Thus, the "prophethood" of Smith, and his Mormon belief system, are greatly undermined by Smith's claim to have "translated" plates produced in the 19th century but, for which he claimed, an ancient origin.

revivalfire
December 30th 2004, 04:36 PM
Also, wouldn't Smith as a prophet be protected by God as Jeremiah was and warned about such Tom-foolery? Or at least had discernment...

Krusader
December 30th 2004, 04:59 PM
Also, wouldn't Smith as a prophet be protected by God as Jeremiah was and warned about such Tom-foolery? Or at least had discernment...

Well, you'd think so. Don't forget, Smith claimed to have a "gift" of translation - obviously it failed him.

revivalfire
December 31st 2004, 12:29 AM
He just didn't have enough money to go get his "translating" fluid....that's all..:lol:

John Powell
January 2nd 2005, 02:13 PM
. . .
Along with the Book of Abraham fiasco, it would appear that the Kinderhook plates provide additional proof that Smith had no gift as a "translator," as he claimed. Thus, the "prophethood" of Smith, and his Mormon belief system, are greatly undermined by Smith's claim to have "translated" plates produced in the 19th century but, for which he claimed, an ancient origin.

POWELL:
I don't remember the names of the alleged fabricators, but what Crusader wrote is basically how I remember reading it from the Tanners. I think the typical Mormon response to this information is something like the following:

Avoid bringing up the Kinderhook plates issue in anything but Church History Classes (if even there). If it is brought up by the teacher or comes up in a question then give an apologetic.

The apologetic responses might be something like one of the following:

1. Joseph did begin translating the Kinderhook plates. Those claiming that the plates were frauds are mistaken. Joseph, however, did not complete the translation and so they have not been added to scripture. If the metallurgical analysis is correct then perhaps some group favored by God had developed true brass before the rest of the world like the Bible and Book of Mormon recording people working steel long before the rest of the world and building ocean-worthy vessels long before the rest of the world and knowing the secrets of the universe (such as the earth being round) long before the rest of the world.

2. The account of Joseph working on the Kinderhook plates is mistaken.

2a. Joseph quickly recognized they were frauds and so, stopped working on them.

2b. Joseph may have begun writing inspired history derived from reading them as he did with writing the inspired book of Abraham while reading the Egyptian papyri, but Joseph really didn't "translate" the frauds anymore than he translated the Egyptian papyri which contained the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Joseph looked at the curious markings and was inspired by God to write scripture. God can inspire that way, you know.

John Powell

Krusader
January 3rd 2005, 11:33 AM
POWELL:
I don't remember the names of the alleged fabricators, but what Crusader wrote is basically how I remember reading it from the Tanners. I think the typical Mormon response to this information is something like the following:

Avoid bringing up the Kinderhook plates issue in anything but Church History Classes (if even there). If it is brought up by the teacher or comes up in a question then give an apologetic.

The apologetic responses might be something like one of the following:

1. Joseph did begin translating the Kinderhook plates. Those claiming that the plates were frauds are mistaken. Joseph, however, did not complete the translation and so they have not been added to scripture. If the metallurgical analysis is correct then perhaps some group favored by God had developed true brass before the rest of the world like the Bible and Book of Mormon recording people working steel long before the rest of the world and building ocean-worthy vessels long before the rest of the world and knowing the secrets of the universe (such as the earth being round) long before the rest of the world.

2. The account of Joseph working on the Kinderhook plates is mistaken.

2a. Joseph quickly recognized they were frauds and so, stopped working on them.

2b. Joseph may have begun writing inspired history derived from reading them as he did with writing the inspired book of Abraham while reading the Egyptian papyri, but Joseph really didn't "translate" the frauds anymore than he translated the Egyptian papyri which contained the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Joseph looked at the curious markings and was inspired by God to write scripture. God can inspire that way, you know.

John Powell
The reason Smith didn't finish his "Translation" is the unfortunate termination of his life - after his arrest for destroying the Nauvoo Expositor!!!