Take the Biblical cold shower of your life

[Magdalenbrother]

I know it's cold and freezing in many places around the Northern Hemisphere these days. I know that, unlike some Japanese ascetes who haven't yet accepted Jesus as their Saviour, most of you don't practice deep-breathing under icecold mountain waterfalls. But there are really too many fundamentalists hotheads on this forum who need to cure their doctrinaire "internal heat", to speak like a Chinese traditional doctor. So here is the medicine. If this post can sober one Christian Sola Scriptura fanatic, I will not have labored in vain on TWEB to spread enlightened Christianity.
The healing cold shower announced in the title of this thread is a gross factual error relating to elementary Biblical knowledge in the mouth of Christianity's first post-resurrection martyr, our beloved Stephen.

This guy, who is apparently a Greek, gives a lecture on Biblical history to none other than the Sanhedrin in plenary session. Unfortunately, in his hate of the Jewish people (read the whole speech, you will realize that it is a stinking piece of antisemitic rhethoric), he commits an awful Biblical blunder: he tells his (highly learned) audience that Abraham and the other patriarchs were buried in Shechem.
Check Genesis 23/25, you will discover that Abraham was not buried in Shechem (a place in Northern Palestine) but in Machpelah, near Hebron, not far from Jerusalem.
Stephen, who is supposed to be brimful of the Holy Spirit, the entity which in Christian lore is supposed to have written the Holy Book in the first place, also claims that Abraham bought his burial cave from "Emmor, the father of Sychem(KJV)". The truth is that Abraham bought it from...Ephron the Hittite (Gen 23).

Now, my dear friends, what does that mean? How could the Holy Ghost move Stephen to talk Biblical nonsense before the most erudite body of Judaism? Is every word in the old book really God-breathed as you claim? St Augustine put it:"If there is a single error in Holy Writ, then all of it must be declared fake"*.

Needless to say I don't believe the story of Stephen is true. As Robert Eisenman has demonstrated in his remarkable monograph on James, the brother of Jesus, Stephen's stoning is most probably a Christian rewrite of the stoning of James.

But in fact I'd rather believe that Stephen really did say what Acts says he said. Instead of the gnashing of teeth and heart-cutting "Luke" describes as the effect of Stephen's hateful and pompous discourse, I now know that the real reaction of his Jewish hearers must have been uncontrollable, belly-aching outbursts of laughter at this new example of Gentile ignorance.

Some people say that laughter is the best cure for pride.


*I don't share Augustine extreme views. My position is best expressed by Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 5, 21: "Put everything to the test".

[Jaltus]

Acts 7:15-16 15 And Jacob went down into Egypt, and he died, he and our fathers, 16 and they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham had bought for a sum of silver from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

He does not say where Abraham was buried, only where Abraham's grandson and great-grandchildren were buried. Unless I am mistaken, this is never talked about in the OT. Since it is not the tomb where Abraham was buried, then it is not the tomb that was talked about in Genesis 23/25.

You need to at least read scripture appropriately if you plan on critiquing it.

[Pilgrim]

Good job there Jaltus. It's astounding what some people can come up with.

[Magdalenbrother]

Acts 7:15-16 15 And Jacob went down into Egypt, and he died, he and our fathers, 16 and they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham had bought for a sum of silver from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

He does not say where Abraham was buried, only where Abraham's grandson and great-grandchildren were buried. Unless I am mistaken, this is never talked about in the OT. Since it is not the tomb where Abraham was buried, then it is not the tomb that was talked about in Genesis 23/25.

You need to at least read scripture appropriately if you plan on critiquing it.Jaltus is in the habit of telling enormous lies. The bigger the better. It's almost pathological with him.

Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (p.842) says that Abraham, Isaac (="our fathers" in the Acts quote above), Rebekah, Leah and Jacob were buried at Machpelah, in the town of Hebron. Shechem is a different place altogether.

Besides, Abraham never bought anything from Hamor's sons. The buy in Shechem was made by Jacob(Gen 33:19). Abraham bought the burial cave from a Hittite named Ephron (Genesis 23:19).

Never talked about in the OT? Check Gen 25:9 (which states unequivocally that Abraham was buried in Machpelah), 49:29-31; 50:13 (indicates that Jacob was also buried in Machpelah).


People's unwillingnes to face the facts is really astounding.

MB. Accusations of lying are serious and are not allowed at TWeb with out substantiation. Your accusation will be edited out until you substantiate it, if you so desire. Please, if you wish to attempt to substantiate this accusation, take it to the Locer Room, not here.

Also note, that leadership here defines lying as an intentional misrepresentation of what a person beleives to be true. If you did not mean that Jaltus intentionally said something he knew to be untrue, the polite thing would do would be to retract your statement.

[Jaltus]

Jaltus is in the habit of telling enormous lies. The bigger the better. It's almost pathological with him.

Actually I did make a mistake. The Acts passage never talks about Jacob, it only talks about his 12 sons. The 12 sons are not mentioned as being buried ANYWHERE, yet it is very clear that it is the 12 who are being referred to as being buried someplace, not Abraham or anyone else.


All of your evidence deals with Abraham etc, it never talks about those who became the 12 tribes. Therefore, your argument is moot.

Also, I did not lie and do not lie. I am reporting your post for the accusation according to the guidelines of TWeb and am asking you to retract your statement unless you can prove I have lied.

[Magdalenbrother]

Sorry, Jaltus for having used the wrong word in my haste to reply to your post. Liars lie knowingly in order to cheat whereas you just spout sincere falsehoods for the good cause because you have been programmed by others to defend at any intellectual price the infallibility of the Bible.

Your reading skills are appalling, Jaltus. And you live in complete denial.

But let's move on, I'm not interested in being personal. Besides, I know you are a nice fellow when your pet beliefs are not challenged. I remember with gratefulness your reply to my "I'm being persecuted on TWEB" thread in the locker room.

Now for the last time let me state the facts (as opposed to the non-facts).

Stephen says unequivocally that "they" (Jacob+our fathers) were buried in Shechem.

Acts 7:15-16 15 And Jacob went down into Egypt, and he [Joseph] died, he [Joseph] and our fathers, and they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham had bought for a sum of silver from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

Anyone who knows English even at a very elementary level will agree with me that "they" indeed refers to Jacob. "Our fathers" IMHO may also refer to Abraham and Isaac since these two were considered the fathers of the Jewish nation. But maybe I'm wrong here.

Unfortunately for Stephen and the infallibility of the Book, Jacob was buried in Machpelah :lol: . The guy who was buried in Shechem is Joseph. Contrary to your assertion that we don't know where any of the twelve sons of Jacob were buried, Joseph's resting place IS mentioned in the Bible. Yes sir, you go and find the reference in Genesis as a punishment. He was buried in the field that Jacob, not Abraham, as Stephen wrongly asserts, bought from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

All this can be checked in the Bible.


Do we use the same Bible, beloved?
Do we speak the same language, ie modern standard English?
Will I have to repeat all this a hundred times in Hebrew, Latin (your favourite language if I'm not mistaken) AND Mongolian before you grasp it?

You have not addressed the obvious error concerning the buyer of the field in Shechem (Jacob not Abraham).

Now, brothers and sisters, the reason why this startling error occurred is very simple: the whole discourse in Acts 7 is lifted almost bodily from Joshua's farewell address in Joshua 24. If you read Joshua till the end, you will see that verse 32 (in the same chapter 24) is almost a word for word replica of Acts 7:15-16 but instead of "Jacob and our fathers", you have "the bones of Joseph buried they in Sychem in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor"(KJV).

The man who copied Joshua 24 and made it a part of Acts 7 was probably absent-minded...

God's breath was far.

Conclusion: your new pseudo-explanation doesn't hold water, Jaltus. Burn your infallible Bible and mourn. And be liberated from the burden of old rotting bones.

No, I will not reply to any more rubbish you may post on this thread.

[Jaltus]

Sorry, Jaltus for having used the wrong word in my haste to reply to your post. Liars lie knowingly in order to cheat whereas you just spout sincere falsehoods for the good cause because you have been programmed by others to defend at any intellectual price the infallibility of the Bible.

Proof yet again that you really do not know me. Again I ask for evidence of falsehoods. Your forthcoming comments show your lack of intellectual prowess and knowledge of me.

Your reading skills are appalling, Jaltus. And you live in complete denial.

Actually my reading skills are quite good. I scored perfect in reading on the ACT (not that it really matters).

But let's move on, I'm not interested in being personal. Besides, I know you are a nice fellow when your pet beliefs are not challenged. I remember with gratefulness your reply to my "I'm being persecuted on TWEB" thread in the locker room.

You are not interested in being personal, yet you begin every single reply to me with multiple personal attacks. Your credibility shrinks with every word you spew through your keyboard.

Now for the last time let me state the facts (as opposed to the non-facts).

Stephen says unequivocally that "they" (Jacob+our fathers) were buried in Shechem.

Acts 7:15-16 15 And Jacob went down into Egypt, and he [Joseph] died, he [Joseph] and our fathers, and they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham had bought for a sum of silver from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

Anyone who knows English even at a very elementary level will agree with me that "they" indeed refers to Jacob. "Our fathers" IMHO may also refer to Abraham and Isaac since these two were considered the fathers of the Jewish nation. But maybe I'm wrong here.

Yes, we all know that the Bible was written in English! Good grief, man, look at the Greek grammar:

Acts 7:15-16a
kai katebh Iakwb eiV Aigupton kai eteleuthsen autoV kai oi patereV hmwn kai meteteqhsan eiV Sucem kai eteqhsan...

The key words in question are the eteleuthsen autoV kai oi patereV hmwn kai meteteqhsan. If you know your Greek, clearly the first verb is 3rd person singular (the "en" ending shows this clearly) which means that "our fathers" cannot be the subject of that verb along with "autos". Instead, "our fathers" is the subject of the second verb because it is 3rd person plural. Literally, the verse says "And Jacob went down to Egypt and he himself died and our fathers even went to Shechem..." The importance thing here to note is the use of autos right before a collective noun. Generally this signifies that the autos is to be understood separately.

In other words, the Greek text does not allow for the argument you are making. Sure, some of the English translations may have it wrong, but the Greek is very clear. Remember that inerrancy refers to the original language and NOT translations. If you are going to challenge the paradigm, at least challenge it and stay away from strawmen.

Unfortunately for Stephen and the infallibility of the Book, Jacob was buried in Machpelah :lol: . The guy who was buried in Shechem is Joseph. Contrary to your assertion that we don't know where any of the twelve sons of Jacob were buried, Joseph's resting place IS mentioned in the Bible. Yes sir, you go and find the reference in Genesis as a punishment. He was buried in the field that Jacob, not Abraham, as Stephen wrongly asserts, bought from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

All this can be checked in the Bible.


Do we use the same Bible, beloved?
Do we speak the same language, ie modern standard English?
Will I have to repeat all this a hundred times in Hebrew, Latin (your favourite language if I'm not mistaken) AND Mongolian before you grasp it?

Actually, you are the one who continually quoted Latin to me as if it had some special significance. Once again, the OT is written in Hebrew, the NT in Greek. Inerrancy refers to the original languages, and therefore your arguments from English grammar are irrelevent. Just because you try to mock my reliance upon the original languages does not make such reliance wrong. In fact most if not all scholars of the Bible study it in the original language.

You have not addressed the obvious error concerning the buyer of the field in Shechem (Jacob not Abraham).

Huh? Oh, that old one. Let's deal with first things first. I have more to say.

Now, brothers and sisters, the reason why this startling error occurred is very simple: the whole discourse in Acts 7 is lifted almost bodily from Joshua's farewell address in Joshua 24. If you read Joshua till the end, you will see that verse 32 (in the same chapter 24) is almost a word for word replica of Acts 7:15-16 but instead of "Jacob and our fathers", you have "the bones of Joseph buried they in Sychem in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor"(KJV).

The man who copied Joshua 24 and made it a part of Acts 7 was probably absent-minded...

Interesting notion. I'll look into the Greek.


Conclusion: your new pseudo-explanation doesn't hold water, Jaltus. Burn your infallible Bible and mourn. And be liberated from the burden of old rotting bones.

No, I will not reply to any more rubbish you may post on this thread.

Ah, cop-out central. This basically means "I know my arguments make no sense, therefore I am running away now."

In addition to being grammatically wrong and working in the wrong language, you also obviously do not understand what inerrancy means in the first place. Inerrancy refers to the record of events being correct. This means if someone said something that was incorrect, inerrancy would ensure that the person's incorrectness would be recorded. Thus, the mistake here would be Stephen's and not Luke's. In other words, even if your take on this passage was correct, it would still not harm the doctrine of inerrancy.

Again, you obviously do not understand the concept, and therefore you make strawman after strawman.