Defending the deity of Christ

[D_Brasted]

Hi All,

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum - I'm new to the forums and I couldn't find the Christology section...

I have had the opportunity to dialogue with Christadelphians in town on a couple of occasions, and both times we discussed whether Jesus was and is God in human flesh. I am now looking to continue the discussion over e-mail, and was wondering how you would go about a thorough defense of the deity of Christ, bearing in mind the typical Christadelphian/Jehovah's Witness/etc responses to individual oft-used verses (e.g. John 10:30).

In particular, I am interested in your thoughts on the consequences of NOT believing that Jesus is the Word incarnate, God in human flesh. If possible, please support your points with Scripture references for why it is so vital that Jesus is God.

Thanks for your help, and I look forward to your replies.

Yours in Christ, Dominic

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dominic "D Brasted",

Greetings. I was interested in your post concerning Cds and their belief on the subject of the Deity of Christ. I am not sure how much discussion you have had as yet, but I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and support this view from such passages as Luke 1:35, John 1:14 and John 10:30-36. Thus I cannot help you in defending what I consider a wrong view. The JWs have different views to the Cds on many aspects of this subject, though they may have a similar explanation of John 10:30.

I would be willing to discuss some of the Scriptures on this subject from a Cd perspective if you can find an appropriate forum. My rate of reply may be only one post every two or three days due to other commitments.

I would be especially interested in starting at John 10:30-36 as I am convinced that this clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, and Jesus establishes a sometimes neglected aspects of the OT usage of the Hebrew word "Elohim" translated as "God", "god", "gods", "angels" and "judges" according to the particular context.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Berean Todd]

The deity of Christ is defended by many threads and thoughts. You have of course John 1 - the "Word" become "flesh". You have I believe John 10:30 "I and the Father are one", you have the "Before Abraham was IAM" statement. Now with the IAM, some will claim that was not a claim of deity, but all one need to do is look at the reaction of the jews - they clearly saw it as a claim to deity and tried to kill Him for making that claim.

You also have Thomas worshipping Him as God, and calling Him "My Lord and my God". No anywhere else where someone tries to worship an angel or man as God, that person is rebuked, but here Jesus accepts that worship.

Jesus also does the works of God - He forgives people of sins, something only God can do.

In Hebrews 1:8-9 we are told "But to the Son He (God) says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" ... so God the Father there is calling God the Son, God.

Phil 2:6 states of Jesus, "who, being in the very form of God" ... now in the Greek that statement is much more clear, meaning that Jesus was an exact copy, He was identical to God, possessing of all that God possessed. In other words, He IS God.

I could go on, but I will leave it at that for comment for now.

[Mark_S]

Hey Dominic,

Pleasure to meet you! If you don't mind me asking a question, are you considering becoming a Christadelphian, or are you "trying to convert them back"? In the mean time, I'll try to put together, hopefully, some of what you are looking for, and possibly some good websites that describe the serious issues that exist within Christadelphian doctrine. I know www.carm.net (http://www.carm.net) has a page or two on their website that would be a good start, but I seem to remember another that goes into much greater depth. I'll see if I can google it up.

Mark

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dominic "D Brasted",

Greetings again. I have started a new thread titled "John 10v30-36 - Jesus is the Son of God" in the "Unorthodox Theology 201" forum. This represents a brief introduction to my understanding of John 10:30-36. I would be interested to compare other twebbers' understanding of these verses.

Kind regards
Trevor

[TheBeast]

Is this thread an attempt to show or prove Jesus was the Son of God? If so then I should point out you are all offering fallacious arguments.

Jesus is the Son of God because the Bible says so

But how do we know the Bible is true

Because we say so

So how do know you're right?

The Bible supports us.


This fallacy of Begging the Question could only support a fictionalist argument, viz. in the context of the Bible Jesus is the Son of God. In a congruent sense Murdoch was insane in the A Team (though I got told he was faking it)

[brother vinny]

"TheBeast" apparently isn't up on reading comprehesion, as this section of TheologyWeb specifies "Christian only."

[Amazing Rando]

"TheBeast" apparently isn't up on reading comprehesion, as this section of TheologyWeb specifies "Christian only."

You're right! I suppose his reading comprehension is "beastly!"

HA! I kill me...

:outtie:

[TheBeast]

That was edited because? My post was entirely apropos of the thread and the forum. If it belongs in another forum you could have asked and I would have transferred my material. All I did was advise you all on arguing/discussing the doctrine of Christ. If you apply arguments such as the ones above they will not be taken seriously, because they are completely fallacious.

Would I be correct in presuming that this post should be edited as well?

TheBeast, I attempted to PM you about this but your PMs are disabled.

This is a Christian-only forum. Please be sure to read the guidelines for a particular forum before posting.

[Em7add11]

TheBeast, I attempted to PM you about this but your PMs are disabled.

This is a Christian-only forum. Please be sure to read the guidelines for a particular forum before posting.

[Krusader]

Hi All,

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum - I'm new to the forums and I couldn't find the Christology section...

I have had the opportunity to dialogue with Christadelphians in town on a couple of occasions, and both times we discussed whether Jesus was and is God in human flesh. I am now looking to continue the discussion over e-mail, and was wondering how you would go about a thorough defense of the deity of Christ, bearing in mind the typical Christadelphian/Jehovah's Witness/etc responses to individual oft-used verses (e.g. John 10:30).

In particular, I am interested in your thoughts on the consequences of NOT believing that Jesus is the Word incarnate, God in human flesh. If possible, please support your points with Scripture references for why it is so vital that Jesus is God.

Thanks for your help, and I look forward to your replies.

Yours in Christ, Dominic
Christadelphians are a very small, but tight-knit group. The Emphatic Diaglott, used by the Watchtower to justify their horrendous NWT translation, was written by a Christiadelphian.

It's good to keep in mind that Christadelphians do not believe Jesus existed prior to the incarnation. This is easily refuted by many biblical passages (Before Abraham was, I am, - for instance).

As far a rejection of Christ's deity goes - it would appear that this places one in a very dangerous situation. John 1:12 states that we must receive Christ to become a child of God. The Christ we must receive is the one spoken of in Scripture, the God/Man. If we receive a lessor Christ, we receive a counterfeit Christ - and we receive a counterfeit salvation.

[D_Brasted]

Thanks for the replies, and the welcome! In answer to your question, Mark, I am not in any way considering becoming a Christadelphian. I'm a born-again evangelical Bible-believing Christian and could be nothing else. So I guess you could say I'm "trying to convert them" - I prefer to say I'm interested in dialoguing with the guy I met, in the hope that the Lord will use what I say to open his eyes to the truth regarding the Lord Jesus Christ and his position before Him. :lol:

Thank you also for the suggestions for verses to use, but I'd guess that there are Christadelphian responses of some sort to each of them, in which case my correspondent and I will likely go round in circles debating each other's interpretations of those verses. This is why I'm trying to understand the consequences (supported by Scripture) of not believing that Jesus is God. Though I do not want to use merely human reasoning in my discussion, I feel that this is perhaps a promising line of debate - the necessity for Jesus to be God means that trusting in a Jesus who isn't God is futile. So I agree entirely with you Crusader. I'm simply trying to understand from Scripture exactly why this is the case. An example of a possible reason is that for Christ's sacrifice to be "worth enough" He had to be God, because a perfect man could only stand in the place of a single sinful man whereas a God-man (Jesus) with the infinite attributes of deity could stand in the place of all. Another reason I heard had something to do with ratifying the New Covenant, how it is only God who can do so (or something like that), but I can't remember it exactly. Any help (and other reasons/consequences) would be appreciated!

I may start/end up running with a more holistic approach - I have a sheet which nicely summarises Biblical evidence for the deity of Christ over the whole of Scripture. It gives the "big picture" about Jesus, comparing the "attributes of God" with the "attributes of Jesus" (Jesus is called the Rock, the Saviour, the King, the Shepherd, the Judge, the forgiver of sins etc, all names/functions given to God in the OT).

Trevor, thank you for your input. I assume from what you said here, and from your new thread, that you do not agree with the belief that Jesus is God in the flesh. If this is so, then you may find the responses to my question from others enlightening... :lol:

[TrevorL]

Howdy Dominic "D Brasted",


Greetings again. Dominic wrote: "Trevor, thank you for your input. I assume from what you said here, and from your new thread, that you do not agree with the belief that Jesus is God in the flesh." I have been encouraged by considering your comments and the subject of God as revealed in the Bible. I have added two new posts to my other thread, and hope that this gives a brief maybe disjointed introduction to some aspects of our possibly wrong ideas. I do hope that you are kind to your Cd friend, and do not rattle him with too many difficult verses.

Concerning your comment concerning "the belief that Jesus is God in the flesh", the Cds do believe that Jesus is the manifestation of the Deity in the flesh. For example, one of the main expositions of this subject is found in Eureka - an Exposition of the Apocalypse written by John Thomas in 1861. Three sections in this book, commenting on Revelation ch.1 are "1. Of Deity before Manifestation in Flesh", "2. Deity Manifested in Flesh", "3. Deity Manifested in Spirit".

I have been encouraged by your warmth and enthusiasm and I hope that all of us grow to a greater appreciation of God's inexpressible gift in His Son 2 Corinthians 5:19, John 3:16.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Piebald]

Christadelphians also believe that Jesus had a sinful nature. Actually they believe a whole host of things contrary to what scripture clearly points out. They even deny the existence of Satan (as Christians know him) and demons. This leaves them with tortuous explanations of texts that clearly point out the opposite of what they believe.

I have some notes on Christadelphianism that I put here:

http://www.geocities.com/Christadelphianism/

It is incomplete and will remain that way until after I finish school, however. I hope you find it helpful.

You may also find this page helpful:

http://www.tektonics.org/af/cdelsandjesus.html

[Vivian]

Hello Dominic,

A discussion regarding Jesus' deity can be found on another thread. You can find it at this link...

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44070

vivian

[Zxcv Bnm]

In particular, I am interested in your thoughts on the consequences of NOT believing that Jesus is the Word incarnate, God in human flesh. If possible, please support your points with Scripture references for why it is so vital that Jesus is God.Jesus said, "...it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' [Deut. 6:13]" (Matthew 4:10)

As Christians (followers of Christ), we are to obey Jesus (Luke 6:46; John 13:34; 14:15,23-24; 15:12; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 2:3-6) and serve Him.

If the Jesus we serve is not God, then we neither serve God nor love Him (Matthew 6:24), for we have but one master (Matthew 23:8): He is our Lord.

Jesus said, "Trust in God; trust also in me." (John 14:1)

If this Jesus we trust is not God, then we are under God's curse, rather than His blessing (Jeremiah 17:5-8).

[InChristAlways]

An example of a possible reason is that for Christ's sacrifice to be "worth enough" He had to be God, because a perfect man could only stand in the place of a single sinful man whereas a God-man (Jesus) with the infinite attributes of deity could stand in the place of all. Another reason I heard had something to do with ratifying the New Covenant, how it is only God who can do so (or something like that), but I can't remember it exactly. Any help (and other reasons/consequences) would be appreciated!
Hi. I heard on a jewish forum one time that in order for God to "remarry" the house of Israel that He divorced in the OT for adultery was for Him to "die" as only God could atone for the sin. I wish I could remember more about it.
As for Jesus being God, I firmly believe that, and kind of laugh when I see churches showing Jesus as a little "baby".
This person has an excellent site showing why Jesus is God and why He must be God if you are interested. Hope this helps.

http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/sonisgod.html

"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." (John 3:13).

[shunyadragon]

The deity of Christ is defended by many threads and thoughts. You have of course John 1 - the "Word" become "flesh". You have I believe John 10:30 "I and the Father are one", you have the "Before Abraham was IAM" statement. Now with the IAM, some will claim that was not a claim of deity, but all one need to do is look at the reaction of the jews - they clearly saw it as a claim to deity and tried to kill Him for making that claim. These quotes have been addressed in many threads, aand I do no think they can stand alone in defense of calling Jesus Christ God. Christ's other word's must also be taken into consideration when considering his true station and relationship to God, as in John 5, which is repeated in all the gospels.

You also have Thomas worshipping Him as God, and calling Him "My Lord and my God". No anywhere else where someone tries to worship an angel or man as God, that person is rebuked, but here Jesus accepts that worship.This a questionable reference, because I believe it is an exaltation to God by Thomas for his sudden understanding of the station of Christ and not a statement of the nature of Christ.

Jesus also does the works of God - He forgives people of sins, something only God can do.

In Hebrews 1:8-9 we are told "But to the Son He (God) says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever" ... so God the Father there is calling God the Son, God.

Phil 2:6 states of Jesus, "who, being in the very form of God" ... now in the Greek that statement is much more clear, meaning that Jesus was an exact copy, He was identical to God, possessing of all that God possessed. In other words, He IS God.

I could go on, but I will leave it at that for comment for now.Christ clearly states that he does not do these things of his own power or authority, and God is acting through him. Christ never said, 'I am God.' In fact many of his statements deny this.

[InChristAlways]

Christ clearly states that he does not do these things of his own power or authority, and God is acting through him. Christ never said, 'I am God.' In fact many of his statements deny this.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."


"For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 4:6).
Jesus is the "brightness of His glory", the "express image": "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things(gen 15:4), through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high..." (Hebrews 1:2-3).

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone("Child is Born/Heir"), a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. 17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW12.htm

Now let us read Isaiah 9:6. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given ... His name shall be called ... the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father. "It does not say mighty man, but Mighty God. A little child is called the Mighty God. The child mentioned here refers to the child born in the stable in Bethlehem, who is not only named the Mighty God, but also the Everlasting Father. As a child born to us, He is called the Mighty God; as a Son given to us, He is called the Everlasting Father. When the child is called the Mighty God, is He the child, or God? And, when the son is called the Everlasting Father, is He the son or the Father? If you try to figure it out, you cannot do it. You must take it as a fact, unless, of course, you do not believe the scriptures. If you believe the authority of the scriptures, you must accept the fact that since the child is called the Mighty God, it means the child IS the Mighty God; and since the Son is called the Father, it means the Son IS the Father! If the child is not the Mighty God, how could the child be called the Mighty God? And if the Son is not the Father, how could the Son be called the Father? And if we believe the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, we must believe that HE IS THE FATHER! So, then, how many Gods do we have? We have only one God, because the child Jesus is the Mighty God, and the Son is the Everlasting Father.

[D_Brasted]

Dear All,

Thank you for your replies, and sorry for not posting sooner. I have been pretty busy lately.

I have since found an answer which satisfies my question - "Why does Jesus have to be the Word incarnate?". I found it at http://www.tektonics.org/nutshell/nutshellatone.html regarding the "honour offense" of sin. Because God possesses the greatest honour of any being in existence, the only price that could satisfy the penalty for sin - the insult to God's honour - was for someone of "equal honour value" to give up that honour and be put to shame. Thus the only way for Jesus to be able to pay the honour offense is to be deity Himself - i.e. the Word of God incarnate. So, to answer the exact wording of my original question, the consequence of not believing that Jesus is the Word incarnate is that you no longer have a Saviour of high enough "honour value" to be able to save anyone.

InChristAlways, I am a little troubled by your last post. The Son is not the Father, otherwise there is no distinction of Persons within the Godhead. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. However, the Father is neither the Son nor the Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Spirit, and the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

Re:Isaiah 9:6, see the end of http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Shabir-Ally/misunderstood2.htm. What we have translated as "Everlasting Father" means "Father of Eternity" - i.e. the one who gives eternal life.

[shunyadragon]

Dear All,

Thank you for your replies, and sorry for not posting sooner. I have been pretty busy lately.

I have since found an answer which satisfies my question - "Why does Jesus have to be the Word incarnate?". I found it at http://www.tektonics.org/nutshell/nutshellatone.html regarding the "honour offense" of sin. Because God possesses the greatest honour of any being in existence, the only price that could satisfy the penalty for sin - the insult to God's honour - was for someone of "equal honour value" to give up that honour and be put to shame. Thus the only way for Jesus to be able to pay the honour offense is to be deity Himself - i.e. the Word of God incarnate. So, to answer the exact wording of my original question, the consequence of not believing that Jesus is the Word incarnate is that you no longer have a Saviour of high enough "honour value" to be able to save anyone.

InChristAlways, I am a little troubled by your last post. The Son is not the Father, otherwise there is no distinction of Persons within the Godhead. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. However, the Father is neither the Son nor the Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Spirit, and the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

Re:Isaiah 9:6, see the end of http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Shabir-Ally/misunderstood2.htm. What we have translated as "Everlasting Father" means "Father of Eternity" - i.e. the one who gives eternal life.If you are already believe in something before you investigate whether it is true or not you will most assuredly find the answer you wish to find. The Bible is too ambiguous and conflicting to support the the Greco-Roman Trinitarian view of God. Such an important point of theology should absolutely clear from the beginning.

[drmmjr]

Dear All,

Thank you for your replies, and sorry for not posting sooner. I have been pretty busy lately.

I have since found an answer which satisfies my question - "Why does Jesus have to be the Word incarnate?". I found it at http://www.tektonics.org/nutshell/nutshellatone.html regarding the "honour offense" of sin. Because God possesses the greatest honour of any being in existence, the only price that could satisfy the penalty for sin - the insult to God's honour - was for someone of "equal honour value" to give up that honour and be put to shame. Thus the only way for Jesus to be able to pay the honour offense is to be deity Himself - i.e. the Word of God incarnate. So, to answer the exact wording of my original question, the consequence of not believing that Jesus is the Word incarnate is that you no longer have a Saviour of high enough "honour value" to be able to save anyone.

InChristAlways, I am a little troubled by your last post. The Son is not the Father, otherwise there is no distinction of Persons within the Godhead. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. However, the Father is neither the Son nor the Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Spirit, and the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

Re:Isaiah 9:6, see the end of http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Shabir-Ally/misunderstood2.htm. What we have translated as "Everlasting Father" means "Father of Eternity" - i.e. the one who gives eternal life.
You say that you have found an answer that satisfies your question. Before you close the book on that question, you may want to read the 5th chapter of Romans. Sin was not an "honor offense", it was disobedience, pure and simple.
Romans 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 - (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 - Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 - But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 - And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

So, we see by this, that the disobedience of one caused all to be sinners, and by the obedience, or righteousness, of one, all are made righteous.

[D_Brasted]

Shunyadragon, drjmmjr, while I understand that neither of you believe that Jesus was and is God incarnate, the original post was made in Christianity101 but moved here - hence I was only looking for answers from Christians. Yes, I've already made up my mind regarding the reality of the full deity of Christ, and won't ever change my mind... :teeth:

Of course I welcome discussion - thank you both (and others) for your contributions - but there are already many other threads debating the Trinity, I wasn't planning on making another! :smile:

drjmmjr, have you read the article? Understood in Jesus' culture, disobedience/sin is an honour offense, and thus requires shame as punishment.

Hope that explains things a bit more clearly.

Regards, Dominic

[InChristAlways]

If you are already believe in something before you investigate whether it is true or not you will most assuredly find the answer you wish to find. The Bible is too ambiguous and conflicting to support the the Greco-Roman Trinitarian view of God. Such an important point of theology should absolutely clear from the beginning.Hi shunyadragon. How can God's Word be ambiguous and conflicting if it is His Devine Words?? Malachi and Isaiah both show the Lord coming and according to Isaiah He will come then "vengeance and Wrath" on the Corrupt Sheperds of Judah/Levi who were leading the Lost Sheep of Israel astray (as they do today). The curses on the priests in Malachi are for jews, not gentiles (Deut 28). It appears that is what God brought on them in the first century as there temple appears to have disappeared somehow.
I may avoid Israel until Ezekiel 22 is fulfilled. God bless.

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming," Says the LORD of hosts.

14 Therefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men, Who rule this people who [are] in Jerusalem, 15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we are in agreement. When the overflowing scourge passes through, It will not come to us, For we have made lies our refuge, And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves." 16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.

ezekiel 22:17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 "Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. [i]21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.