I am branded a "heretic" by the churches

[InChristAlways]

I started this post as it appears some or most churches deem those who are of Christ as "heretics" because we believe in the inerrant Words of the Bible.
Another words a person can be a "futurists", "dispensationalist", or a "partial preterist", partial futurist and all kinds of doctrines in between, like amillienists, premill, prewrath, postmill etc.
But if one takes the words of Jesus literally in Luke 21 of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus says ALL THINGS WRITTEN will be FULFILLED on the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century, they tell those who do believe this that it is against the church "creeds" to believe what Jesus said. But if the "creeds" are suppose to help the churches be of One Mind and in Unity, it appears they have failed miserably in that area, as God's churches are more divided than pieces of a jigsaw laying on the table.
So I would like to ask other believers here why are certain christians "scorned" by the churches for believing in something Christ said just because others can't understand the written OT and NT and are "hamstrung" by the manmade church "creeds".
Wouldn't it be heretical to NOT BELIEVE what Jesus said here? Any views are welcome and God bless.

Luke 24:44 " Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there("this people" in luke 21). 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will trample the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

[Magdalenbrother]

Look, ICA, I really think that the debate between "futurists", "dispensationalists", "partial preterists", "partial futurists", "amillienists", "premill", "prewrath", "postmill" etc. is not half as important for our life (both here and in the hereafter) and for the preservation of the integrity of the full revelation of God which is in Jesus Christ AS the question of whether the heretics will suffer in hell from hot flames or freezing cold.

Will it be like the Negev (after the greenhouse effect) or like the South Pole (before the greenhouse effect)?

IOW, for me the central question, the question on which orthodoxy ultimately hinges is whether one is a psychrohadesist (cold hell) or a zestohadesist (hot hell) or a psychrozestohadesist(cold/hot hell). If you are the latter, you have the life-and-death choice between being a simultaneous psychrozestohadesist (SPZH), who holds that cold and heat torment the damned at the same time, and the rotating or alternating psychrozestohadesist (APZH), who claims that the real torture is to suffer now from deep cold, now from scorching heat.

What about MYSELF?

Yours truly is a chliarohadesist: I believe that hell enjoys a temperate climate like God-damned liberal France. And I hate all aforementioned heretics with perfect hate.

And now, before we decide whether we are really going to take God's infallible Word seriously enough to launch anathemas against those who believe false creeds, let us learn some Koine Greek:

psuchros means "cold" as in "whosoever shall give a cup of cold water to..."(Mat 10,42)
zdestos means "hot" as in "you are neither cold nor hot..." (Rev 3,15)
chliaros means "lukewarm" as in "so then because you are lukewarm" (Rev 3,16)
hades means "hell" as in "what the hell does this mean?" (Luke 24,12: Peter's often edited exclamation when he realized the tomb was empty)

[Solly]

Look, ICA, I really think that the debate between "futurists", "dispensationalists", "partial preterists", "partial futurists", "amillienists", "premill", "prewrath", "postmill" etc. is not half as important for our life (both here and in the hereafter) and for the preservation of the integrity of the full revelation of God which is in Jesus Christ AS the question of whether the heretics will suffer in hell from hot flames or freezing cold.

I read an interesting account, in which two men are cast into hell, and burn in the flames, writhing in agony. But as the millennia went by, they found the flames became more bearable. More millennia, and soon they found that the environment was comfortable, they had adjusted to the extreme heat.

Hey, says one to the other, this isn't so bad after all, I can get used to this.

You're right, says the other, its' ok now.

suddenly, the flames went out, and a cold wind blew...

[shunyadragon]

I started this post as it appears some or most churches deem those who are of Christ as "heretics" because we believe in the inerrant Words of the Bible.
Wouldn't it be heretical to NOT BELIEVE what Jesus said here? Any views are welcome and God bless.

Luke 24:44 " Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there("this people" in luke 21). 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will trample the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.
The first problem is you would not considered a heretic for believing the above. Different churches may very a little, not much, on the meaning, but virtually all churches agree. Your use of heretical is is little melodramatic and ironic.

The following guidance may be helpful from St. Augustine on the belief of a literal innerent Bible.

St Augustine



Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field in which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."


- St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

[Magdalenbrother]

Augustine's passage is irrelevant to the question. Eschatological problems are no part of the natural sciences: they are part of Christian dogma.

[Undomiel]

I started this post as it appears some or most churches deem those who are of Christ as "heretics" because we believe in the inerrant Words of the Bible.
Another words a person can be a "futurists", "dispensationalist", or a "partial preterist", partial futurist and all kinds of doctrines in between, like amillienists, premill, prewrath, postmill etc.
But if one takes the words of Jesus literally in Luke 21 of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus says ALL THINGS WRITTEN will be FULFILLED on the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century, they tell those who do believe this that it is against the church "creeds" to believe what Jesus said. But if the "creeds" are suppose to help the churches be of One Mind and in Unity, it appears they have failed miserably in that area, as God's churches are more divided than pieces of a jigsaw laying on the table.
So I would like to ask other believers here why are certain christians "scorned" by the churches for believing in something Christ said just because others can't understand the written OT and NT and are "hamstrung" by the manmade church "creeds".
Wouldn't it be heretical to NOT BELIEVE what Jesus said here? Any views are welcome and God bless.

Luke 24:44 " Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there("this people" in luke 21). 2 "But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will trample the holy city underfoot [for] forty-two months.

I don't personally think how we interpret passages outside the necessary passages of salvation, baptism and the identity of Jesus, is a matter of heresy. Charging another christian with heresy would .. .well I don't think I've ever done it in the oh, 30+ years I've been a christian. My conclusions are, if the person believes in the same God I do, and the same savior I do, and has had a spiritual transformation (the salvation experience) and is stepping out in faith and working towards repentance, the rest is just icing on the cake.

[InChristAlways]

. My conclusions are, if the person believes in the same God I do, and the same savior I do, and has had a spiritual transformation (the salvation experience) and is stepping out in faith and working towards repentance, the rest is just icing on the cake. Yes I understand as my belief has nothing to do with my salvation in Christ as He is my Lord and savior. But wouldn't it be nice to have the churches of One Mind and find out why the creeds are interpreted in a way that make Jesus out to be a liar?

This passage is part of the Olivet Discourse and it appears partial preterist want to be "disbelieve" or "disprove" this is what Jesus meant, so I myself quit arguing against futurists, as even the "partial preterists" can't understand this part of scripture. In fact, watching the "partial preterists" battle futurists on all the scripture except Luke 21 is kind of humerous, as this passage would put a stake in the heart of even the most diehard "futurist", but the "ancient" CREEDS prevent them from doing so unfortunately(because they failed to see what the book of revelation is representing, the destruction of first century jerusalem/OC/old heaven and earth..
What was the old "heaven and earth"? The bible explains it very well, just read the book of Hebrews to find the answer. God bless.

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Luke 24:44 " Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

[Undomiel]

. Yes I understand as my belief has nothing to do with my salvation in Christ as He is my Lord and savior. But wouldn't it be nice to have the churches of One Mind and find out why the creeds are interpreted in a way that make Jesus out to be a liar?

This passage is part of the Olivet Discourse and it appears partial preterist want to be "disbelieve" or "disprove" this is what Jesus meant, so I myself quit arguing against futurists, as even the "partial preterists" can't understand this part of scripture. In fact, watching the "partial preterists" battle futurists on all the scripture except Luke 21 is kind of humerous, as this passage would put a stake in the heart of even the most diehard "futurist", but the "ancient" CREEDS prevent them from doing so unfortunately(because they failed to see what the book of revelation is representing, the destruction of first century jerusalem/OC/old heaven and earth..
What was the old "heaven and earth"? The bible explains it very well, just read the book of Hebrews to find the answer. God bless.

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Luke 24:44 " Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures."

Well, I personally don't think there's a single perfect christian religion on this planet. I don't think we should all be under the exact same theology other than the basics (salvation, baptism and repentance), as it would be too tempting for people of a single religion to have that much power and authority. I've seen the results of that kind of unbridled power in human hands, and it ain't pretty. I think God is the only one capable of restoring the Church to its correct understanding on all things, undiluted, and as exactly as He meant it, and until His Kingdom is here and fully restored, we humans will just bicker over the incidentals.

A story I like to retell is the results of several of my bible study meetings with other christians down through the years. Depending on the religion of the person in question, there was always a position to argue from that was inevitably going to be different than someone else's position in the same group. This is unavoidable, I think. I've seen people argue on the same topic and have equally convincing divergent positions, MANY MANY MANY *deep breath* MANY MANY times. I came to the conclusion that the foundation of the scriptures is as follows:

1. Salvation
2. Baptism
3. Repentance
4. Love

Everything else is a matter of personal interpretation until God Himself comes and tells us, either through revelation, understanding or when He returns bodily to the planet (and it will remain personal, in my opinion, until such time as God does come back) . Sure, we form groups, where people with similar personal interpretations converge, and ain't nothing wrong with that, but I don't think any of them can claim to be the final word on all things scriptural. I'm a non-denominational christian, for the record.

[Da Blonde]

...it appears some or most churches deem those who are of Christ as "heretics" because we believe in the inerrant Words of the Bible.

While you address a particular point later in the initial post here, your premise quoted above is extremely faulty.

Most churches don't in any form "deem" people "heretics" in any form, unless you are somehow writing this across some time-space continuum and really live in the 16th Century. In fact, most churches seldom if ever address the issue of heresy at all, and those that do are mostly embarassed to be doing it.

Some of the more conservative denominations like the Southern Baptists claim to believe in the inerrancy of scripture, but, even so, seldom do they address matters of individual differing interpretations, and even the SBC respects matters of individual conscience. Now, if someone were to push such a questionable claim as for instance a statement Jesus and Muhammed are biological brothers, depending upon the degree of the outrageousness with which they express it, they might indeed be removed from a church forcibly, but that would be a rare exception indeed.

It seems you are attributing a particular instance in a minority sect to 'all Christians' and there is no basis for it at all. Please furnish further information if you wish to refute this.

[Magdalenbrother]

I read an interesting account, in which two men are cast into hell, and burn in the flames, writhing in agony. But as the millennia went by, they found the flames became more bearable. More millennia, and soon they found that the environment was comfortable, they had adjusted to the extreme heat.

Hey, says one to the other, this isn't so bad after all, I can get used to this.

You're right, says the other, its' ok now.

suddenly, the flames went out, and a cold wind blew...
This tends to prove that alternating psychrozestohadesists are right, doesn't it?