Birthdays

[Ric]

Do JW's celebrate birthdays? My son is about to turn five years old and one of his friends in school is a JW (family). Should we invite my son's friend to his fifth birthday party?

Thanks in advance!

[barryrob]

Do JW's celebrate birthdays? My son is about to turn five years old and one of his friends in school is a JW (family). Should we invite my son's friend to his fifth birthday party? Thanks in advance!

In a word NO as we consider them (as with Christmas as it is a birthday) to be pagan creature worship. Our publications say:-

Reasoning on the Scriptures p. 69 Birthday

How did early Christians and Jews of Bible times view birthday celebrations?
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

"The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days."—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225.

What is the origin of popular customs associated with birthday celebrations?
"The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom."—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.

We view them all as an act of Idolatry:-

1 John 5:21
Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

Christian Love
Barryrob

[Sparko]

You are perfectly free to not celebrate Birthdays, no matter how sad that is for your children. But to say it is unbiblical is wrong.

Colossians 2:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

I think birthdays fall under that umbrella.

[Krusader]

How sad for your children.
It's interesting to note that a one time the Watchtower allowed the celebrations of birthdays and they were listed in their Yearbook. If they revert to that practice manana, Barryrob will be the first to defend this "new old light."

[barryrob]

You are perfectly free to not celebrate Birthdays, no matter how sad that is for your children. But to say it is unbiblical is wrong.
Colossians 2:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
I think birthdays fall under that umbrella.

The only persons in the Bible to celebrate Birthdays where pagans:-

Genesis 40:20
Now on the third day it turned out to be Phar´aoh’s birthday, and he proceeded to make a feast for all his servants. .

Matthew 14:6
But when Herod’s birthday was being celebrated. .

Mark 6:21
But a convenient day came along when Herod spread an evening meal on his birthday for his top-ranking men and the military commanders and the foremost ones of Gal´i·le. .

So what you say is not right according to the Bible as it puts Birthdays in a negative light!

Barryrob

[barryrob]

It's interesting to note that a one time the Watchtower allowed the celebrations of birthdays and they were listed in their Yearbook. If they revert to that practice manana, Barryrob will be the first to defend this "new old light."Along with the use of the Cross and celerbrating Christmas until it was understood clearly that it was Pagan, so unlike the so-called Christian Churches we stopped following paganisum!

Barryrob

[Sparko]

Along with the use of the Cross and celerbrating Christmas until it was understood clearly that it was Pagan, so unlike the so-called Christian Churches we stopped following paganisum!

Barryrob
Really, then why is your great founder and leader Mr. Russell buried under a PYRAMID with cross symbols all over it?

If your own founder was a crackpot heathen paganist, then what makes you think the cult he started is any better and should be followed?

If a satanist started a religion, and later the religion renounce the founder's beliefs, should one still believe in that satanic religion?

it is all fruit from a poisonous tree in my opinion.

[barryrob]

Really, then why is your great founder and leader Mr. Russell buried under a PYRAMID with cross symbols all over it?

If your own founder was a crackpot heathen paganist, then what makes you think the cult he started is any better and should be followed?

If a satanist started a religion, and later the religion renounce the founder's beliefs, should one still believe in that satanic religion?

it is all fruit from a poisonous tree in my opinion.
Because it had not been correted then, as it it now:-

WT 1968 3/1 p. 146 Rejoicing in the God of True Worship
"However, these praisers of the true God must free themselves completely from pagan doctrine and practice. For example, during the years from 1919 onward, sanctimonious dress, the viewing of the great pyramid of Egypt as "the Bible in Stone," the observance of pagan feasts such as the so-called "Christmas," the use of pagan symbols such as the cross, and other religious uncleanness, persisted for a time. Such must be gotten rid of! "Utensils" appropriate to Jehovah’s worship must be brought into service. As God’s will was revealed progressively to them, the anointed remnant were happy to purify their temple worship, so that they could report back to their King in the same way that the priests and Levites reported back to Hezekiah: "We have cleansed the whole house of Jehovah, the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils . . . And all the utensils that King Ahaz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah." (2 Chron. 29:18, 19) The same pattern of true worship that Jesus had established in the first century was restored among true Christians on earth."


Unlike todays Pagan Nation that put it on thier money glorifying the 'new secular order' this is godless!

Barryrob

[Ric]

Thanks for the sad news.



In a word NO as we consider them (as with Christmas as it is a birthday) to be pagan creature worship. Our publications say:-

Reasoning on the Scriptures p. 69 Birthday

How did early Christians and Jews of Bible times view birthday celebrations?
"The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general."—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

"The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days."—The Imperial Bible-Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225.

What is the origin of popular customs associated with birthday celebrations?
"The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. . . . Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom."—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4, 1981, p. 4.

We view them all as an act of Idolatry:-

1 John 5:21
Little children, guard yourselves from idols.

Christian Love
Barryrob

[Sparko]

Because it had not been correted then, as it it now:-

WT 1968 3/1 p. 146 Rejoicing in the God of True Worship
"However, these praisers of the true God must free themselves completely from pagan doctrine and practice. For example, during the years from 1919 onward, sanctimonious dress, the viewing of the great pyramid of Egypt as "the Bible in Stone," the observance of pagan feasts such as the so-called "Christmas," the use of pagan symbols such as the cross, and other religious uncleanness, persisted for a time. Such must be gotten rid of! "Utensils" appropriate to Jehovah’s worship must be brought into service. As God’s will was revealed progressively to them, the anointed remnant were happy to purify their temple worship, so that they could report back to their King in the same way that the priests and Levites reported back to Hezekiah: "We have cleansed the whole house of Jehovah, the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils . . . And all the utensils that King Ahaz removed from employment during his reign in his unfaithfulness we have prepared, and have sanctified them; and there they are before the altar of Jehovah." (2 Chron. 29:18, 19) The same pattern of true worship that Jesus had established in the first century was restored among true Christians on earth."


Unlike todays Pagan Nation that put it on thier money glorifying the 'new secular order' this is godless!

Barryrob

You never answered my questions:

1. If your own founder was a crackpot heathen paganist (as you admit, since they had to 'correct' his paganism), then what makes you think the cult he started is any better and should be followed?

2. If a satanist started a religion, but later the religion renounced the founder's beliefs, should one still believe in that satanic religion today?

[barryrob]

You never answered my questions:

1. If your own founder was a crackpot heathen paganist (as you admit, since they had to 'correct' his paganism), then what makes you think the cult he started is any better and should be followed?

2. If a satanist started a religion, but later the religion renounced the founder's beliefs, should one still believe in that satanic religion today?
I did not admit he was a pagan etc. but that he did get some things wrong which where in due time corrected unlike the paganised Churches.

[Sparko]

I did not admit he was a pagan etc. but that he did get some things wrong which where in due time corrected unlike the paganised Churches.
But you have called us pagans because we practice pagan ceremonies. By that logic, Russell was a pagan.

[Krusader]

But you have called us pagans because we practice pagan ceremonies. By that logic, Russell was a pagan.
Huuummmm! Isn't there's a big pyramid atop Russell's molding body? Seems to me that wasn't corrected....perhaps barryrob forgot about that.

[barryrob]

But you have called us pagans because we practice pagan ceremonies. By that logic, Russell was a pagan.
Pagan persist in their pagan things whereas he and we do not, whereas the church still hang onto their pagan things thus showing no willingness to change to please God and stop their pagan teachings etc., thus I will never join any Church as they remain pagan!
Barryob

[Krusader]

Pagan persist in their pagan things whereas he and we do not, whereas the church still hang onto their pagan things thus showing no willingness to change to please God and stop their pagan teachings etc., thus I will never join any Church as they remain pagan!
BarryobNo, the Watchtower has been guilty of encouraging spiritism. In one of their books dealing with Revelations they attempted to say that the dead 144,000 may be communicating with headquarters to help the work.

Talk about Paganism! (See "Revelation, Its Grand Climax at Hand")

[Sparko]

Pagan persist in their pagan things whereas he and we do not, whereas the church still hang onto their pagan things thus showing no willingness to change to please God and stop their pagan teachings etc., thus I will never join any Church as they remain pagan!
Barryob
But Barry, he DID persist in his pagan beliefs. He DIED believing them!!!
He believed in crosses, and in pyramid power. He was buried under a pyramid with crosses on it!!! Why would he do that if he ever renounced the paganism? Why would the Watchtower put it up if they didn't also believe it when they burried him?

Russell DIED a pagan. He started your religion. Your religion was started by a pagan.

So, if a Satan started a church, and later that church renounced some of the evil doctrines of Satan, but still believed he was the founder of their church, do you think you should belong to that church?

NO.


So, if a pagan (which really is a follower of Satan) started a church, and later that church renounced some of the evil doctrines of that pagan, but still believed he was the founder of their church, do you think you should belong to that church?

(hint: the pagan was Russell)

[barryrob]

But Barry, he DID persist in his pagan beliefs. He DIED believing them!!!
He believed in crosses, and in pyramid power. He was buried under a pyramid with crosses on it!!! Why would he do that if he ever renounced the paganism? Why would the Watchtower put it up if they didn't also believe it when they burried him?

Russell DIED a pagan. He started your religion. Your religion was started by a pagan.

So, if a Satan started a church, and later that church renounced some of the evil doctrines of Satan, but still believed he was the founder of their church, do you think you should belong to that church?

NO.


So, if a pagan (which really is a follower of Satan) started a church, and later that church renounced some of the evil doctrines of that pagan, but still believed he was the founder of their church, do you think you should belong to that church?

(hint: the pagan was Russell)
LOL

[Sparko]

I like it when you are at a loss for words, barryrob. It means I have made you think and you don't have a ready made answer from the watchtower to quote.

That's what I am really trying to do Barryrob, to make you think for yourself instead of parroting the watchtower society.

When you realize that your cult was started by a paganistic lunatic, you will begin to understand that everything that happened since then has been a cover up job by the watchtower people who just want power and control over their masses. You are being brainwashed.

[barryrob]

I like it when you are at a loss for words, barryrob. It means I have made you think and you don't have a ready made answer from the watchtower to quote.

That's what I am really trying to do Barryrob, to make you think for yourself instead of parroting the watchtower society.

When you realize that your cult was started by a paganistic lunatic, you will begin to understand that everything that happened since then has been a cover up job by the watchtower people who just want power and control over their masses. You are being brainwashed.

No John it just amazes me that you have not fallen over yet with all the circles you keep going around in!

[Sparko]

Just wanted to post here and tell everyone

IT"S MY BIRTHDAY!!!! :woohoo:

I am celebrating the fact that God has given me 44 years on this earth. What a blessing! Thank you Father!

AMEN!!

:woohoo:

[Ric]

Just wanted to post here and tell everyone

IT"S MY BIRTHDAY!!!! :woohoo:

I am celebrating the fact that God has given me 44 years on this earth. What a blessing! Thank you Father!

AMEN!!

:woohoo:

Allright! Birthday party at John Sparks' house! :joy: :cheers: :woohoo: :b_bow: :thumb: :badger: :popcorn: :cheshire: :rave:

[Heathen Dawn]

Colossians 2:16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Agreeable, but, just a question: does this apply to Halloween too? A lot of evangelical Christians seem to be forgetful of this Bible verse when it comes to Halloween.

And I agree it’s sad not to celebrate birthdays.

[Sparko]

Agreeable, but, just a question: does this apply to Halloween too? A lot of evangelical Christians seem to be forgetful of this Bible verse when it comes to Halloween.

And I agree it’s sad not to celebrate birthdays.
As to the innocent observation of halloween (children in costumes getting candy) then I say yes it does apply.

If someone were celebrating Halloween as worship of another God, then no. It would be idolotry.

[Heathen Dawn]

As to the innocent observation of halloween (children in costumes getting candy) then I say yes it does apply.

That is charitable. Also contrasts with the Muslims, who say it is forbidden for a Muslim to take part in any non-Muslim practice. And more, a Druze friend of mine in the army told me the celebration of birthdays was unknown in his community.

If someone were celebrating Halloween as worship of another God, then no. It would be idolotry.

That would be me. :wink: Only I don’t use the name Halloween, I call it Samhain.

[barryrob]

That is charitable. Also contrasts with the Muslims, who say it is forbidden for a Muslim to take part in any non-Muslim practice. And more, a Druze friend of mine in the army told me the celebration of birthdays was unknown in his community.

That would be me. :wink: Only I don’t use the name Halloween, I call it Samhain.
Samhain is the true name of the unholy day "Halloween" as there is nothing Hallowed about from the God's of the Bible view, as it is totally pagan (as are Birthdays*) as has been shown on other threads.

*Only celebrated by pagans in the Bible namely Pharaoh and Herod.

Barryrob

[JAY-PC]

You will have to show me where in the Bible it says not to celebrate birthdays.

I find it interesting that there was something of a celebration at the birth of Christ.

And it came about that while they were there, the days were completed for her to give birth. And she gave birth to her first-born son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. And in the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields, and keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which shall be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. "And this will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths, and lying in a manger." And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased." And it came about when the angels had gone away from them into heaven, that the shepherds began saying to one another, "Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us." And they came in haste and found their way to Mary and Joseph, and the baby as He lay in the manger. And when they had seen this, they made known the statement which had been told them about this Child. And all who heard it wondered at the things which were told them by the shepherds. But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. And the shepherds went back, glorifying and praising God for all that they had heard and seen, just as had been told them.
(Luke 2:6-20)



Jews also have birthday celebrations.

"What is a Jewish Birthday?

One's Jewish birthday is, of course, the date upon which one was born according to the Jewish calendar.

Far from considering it incidental, Jewish tradition regards one's Jewish birthday to be fraught with meaning and relevance and, in some ways, even a mini-Rosh Hashanah!

The Talmud informs us that on our Jewish birthdays our mazel (good fortune) is dominant.

The Jewish birthday is the perfect day for reflection about our lives as Jews and is an auspicious time to make new resolutions to perform good deeds and to deepen our commitment to Torah and the role it plays in our lives.

On one's Jewish birthday it is customary to get together with family and friends to celebrate Jewishly. At the celebration one should say a prayer of thanks to G-d, give money to charity, and learn some Torah."

The content on this page is produced by Chabad.org, and is copyrighted by the author, publisher and/or Chabad.org. If you enjoyed this article, we encourage you to distribute it further, provided that you comply with our copyright policy.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=144345

[John from Ebla]

Dear Mr Barry Bob

Job was not a pagan- what was he doing in Job Chapter one.

Then Abraham was not a pagan- What was he doing in Gen 21:3 "time when he was weaned" this was when children turned three years of age.

Interesting discussion.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Topherlee]

Dear Mr Barry Bob

Job was not a pagan- what was he doing in Job Chapter one.

Then Abraham was not a pagan- What was he doing in Gen 21:3 "time when he was weaned" this was when children turned three years of age.

Interesting discussion.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

All I am saying on this one is:
Why is there a need to celebrate a birthday? Are we not to live forever?
The only two in the bible noted as celebrating birthdays are not sons of God. Do you do as the heathen do?

- topherlee

[John from Ebla]

All I am saying on this one is:
Why is there a need to celebrate a birthday? Are we not to live forever?
The only two in the bible noted as celebrating birthdays are not sons of God. Do you do as the heathen do?

- topherlee


Gee,

l was asking a question about what Job and Abraham were doing (Job chapter 1 and Gen 23:3) and l was asking Barry Bob- l don't mind you coming in with a response, as you are free to do so, but you can least explain what they were doing if you want to show some intelligence

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Krusader]

All I am saying on this one is:
Why is there a need to celebrate a birthday? Are we not to live forever?
The only two in the bible noted as celebrating birthdays are not sons of God. Do you do as the heathen do?

- topherlee

What heathen are you speaking of, Topherlee? Oh, you must mean those guys at headquarters who printed a book in 1907 titled, "Daily Heavenly Manna and Birthday Record." Uuummmmm - that would be the Watchtower Society:

http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/jw/jwbrthdy.htm

Now, new light is not supposed to contradict present or old light - right? So, what light did the "Daily Heavenly Manna and Birthday Record" provide? Was it Satanic light? Were the anointed brethren leading their people into error? Uuummmmm - if you go by current "light," you might say that.

[Topherlee]

Gee,

l was asking a question about what Job and Abraham were doing (Job chapter 1 and Gen 23:3) and l was asking Barry Bob- l don't mind you coming in with a response, as you are free to do so, but you can least explain what they were doing if you want to show some intelligence

Kind regards
John From Ebla

That is just it John from Ebla, I do not see what either has to do with birthdays that are celebrated today. I do not see how you can say how being weaned (freed of dependence) is a good discussion on this matter. If anything, the bible speaks in great detail about the traditions of man.

Just like a trinitarian scholar, trying to find a verse to support your theory, doctrine...

If you are going to have a birthday, wake up every day and celebrate by giving thanks to God for yet another day and hold to the promise of being with him eternally. Years will not matter then, time will be of no consequence.

[Topherlee]

What heathen are you speaking of, Topherlee? Oh, you must mean those guys at headquarters who printed a book in 1907 titled, "Daily Heavenly Manna and Birthday Record." Uuummmmm - that would be the Watchtower Society:

http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/jw/jwbrthdy.htm

Now, new light is not supposed to contradict present or old light - right? So, what light did the "Daily Heavenly Manna and Birthday Record" provide? Was it Satanic light? Were the anointed brethren leading their people into error? Uuummmmm - if you go by current "light," you might say that.

Wow, I feel the hatred in you Crusader. To get one thing straight. I neither condemn or criticise one for their celebrations or traditions. I merely provide my thoughts as this website has allowed me to do.
My wife and I celebrated my one year olds birthday party and are organizing his second which is coming soon. I have celebrated Christmas, Halloween, and have been to an Easter gathering of family and friends.
But there is one thing I know, through written history, that all these traditions are of man, pagan traditions. If you are willing to do a little research yourself, you will also find this. Turn on the History Channel, Discovery Times Channel, or the National Geographic Channel, you can see it there. Why did the Pharoah and King Herod celebrate there birthdays? Because they considered themselves man-gods.
As for the JW's, there is one thing I have learned from them, that they are always willing to find the truth in scripture. You go back way in time to illustrate their errors, they have learned a lot since then. The bible does speak of the apostasy that would occur soon after Jesus and the apostles had gone. And the bible also speaks that the truth will reveal itself towards the end of days. The apostasy has already occurred...

Bottom line is, I cannot see how yoy can argue for or against celebrating birthdays or criticise those who preach against it.

[Krusader]

Wow, I feel the hatred in you Crusader. To get one thing straight. I neither condemn or criticise one for their celebrations or traditions. I merely provide my thoughts as this website has allowed me to do.
My wife and I celebrated my one year olds birthday party and are organizing his second which is coming soon. I have celebrated Christmas, Halloween, and have been to an Easter gathering of family and friends.
But there is one thing I know, through written history, that all these traditions are of man, pagan traditions. If you are willing to do a little research yourself, you will also find this. Turn on the History Channel, Discovery Times Channel, or the National Geographic Channel, you can see it there. Why did the Pharoah and King Herod celebrate there birthdays? Because they considered themselves man-gods.
As for the JW's, there is one thing I have learned from them, that they are always willing to find the truth in scripture. You go back way in time to illustrate their errors, they have learned a lot since then. The bible does speak of the apostasy that would occur soon after Jesus and the apostles had gone. And the bible also speaks that the truth will reveal itself towards the end of days. The apostasy has already occurred...

Bottom line is, I cannot see how yoy can argue for or against celebrating birthdays or criticise those who preach against it.

I have no hatred at all for the poor souls in the Watchtower who are enslaved by those leaders who claim they are mediators along with Jesus and peddle their doctrines by having their people go door to door like salesmen. Have you looked at the net profit of the organization lately?

The Watchtower claims to be God's channel on earth for communicating truth, but their "new light" just seems to be changes in opinion and have nothing to do with "light" at all. Here are some quotes right out of the Watchtower about their ability to bring new light:

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/new_light.htm

Now, having read what they say, let's se this New Light doctrine in action:

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/admin-site-map.htm

[Topherlee]

I have no hatred at all for the poor souls in the Watchtower who are enslaved by those leaders who claim they are mediators along with Jesus and peddle their doctrines by having their people go door to door like salesmen. Have you looked at the net profit of the organization lately?

The Watchtower claims to be God's channel on earth for communicating truth, but their "new light" just seems to be changes in opinion and have nothing to do with "light" at all. Here are some quotes right out of the Watchtower about their ability to bring new light:

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/new_light.htm

Now, having read what they say, let's se this New Light doctrine in action:

http://quotes.watchtower.ca/admin-site-map.htm

I do no know what it is that you are reading, but you are grossly misinformed or misinterpret what you read. I do not see where they claim to be a mediator between God and man, or lead by the Holy Spirit. JW's are the only religion that I know of whose Elders or pastors if you will, do not get paid to preach. How much money can you make off of 50 cents a magazine? Even when they give so many away for free. I have JW's stopping by my house from time to time. I have never been asked to buy a thing. I get publications for free. Gee, I wonder how much it costs to make so many publications, when you are giving them away? I think you need to lay off the internet and the "I heard someone say" and look into this first hand. You are a strong minded individual, I don't think you can be brain washed.
Now I do know of a lot of churches, and I will not mention their denominations, that get paid to preach, who still request tithes, who use their churches as retails for selling books. Mega churches are going up with libraries, cafeterias, kid centers, etc... What do these things have to do with worshipping our God? Do you need these things to atrract people (customers). Churches that literally make millions of dollars a year and call it God's money. And this is so true, it's in the bible, people will be turned to fables and fantasies to please their own souls. When you see a pastor on a commercial asking you to come to their new ministry - remember it is a commercial. I see our young who have bought t-shirts that represent their church with slogans and I have seen Christian stores that sale items, symbols of Christianity. When did the cross turn gold or silver or into diamonds? When did Christianity go for sale?

[John from Ebla]

[QUOTE=Topherlee]What do these things have to do with worshipping our God? Do you need these things to atrract people (customers). Churches that literally make millions of dollars a year and call it God's money. And this is so true, it's in the bible, people will be turned to fables and fantasies to please their own souls. When you see a pastor on a commercial asking you to come to their new ministry[QUOTE]

Good point,

Now tell me about "Rabbinic Judaism" and their kosher store's, all things have to be endorsed by them- how many millions do they make?

And you are yet to answer what Job and Abraham were doing (Job chapter 1 and Gen 23:3)

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Krusader]

I do no know what it is that you are reading, but you are grossly misinformed or misinterpret what you read. I do not see where they claim to be a mediator between God and man, or lead by the Holy Spirit. JW's are the only religion that I know of whose Elders or pastors if you will, do not get paid to preach. How much money can you make off of 50 cents a magazine? Even when they give so many away for free. I have JW's stopping by my house from time to time. I have never been asked to buy a thing. I get publications for free. Gee, I wonder how much it costs to make so many publications, when you are giving them away? I think you need to lay off the internet and the "I heard someone say" and look into this first hand. You are a strong minded individual, I don't think you can be brain washed.
Now I do know of a lot of churches, and I will not mention their denominations, that get paid to preach, who still request tithes, who use their churches as retails for selling books. Mega churches are going up with libraries, cafeterias, kid centers, etc... What do these things have to do with worshipping our God? Do you need these things to atrract people (customers). Churches that literally make millions of dollars a year and call it God's money. And this is so true, it's in the bible, people will be turned to fables and fantasies to please their own souls. When you see a pastor on a commercial asking you to come to their new ministry - remember it is a commercial. I see our young who have bought t-shirts that represent their church with slogans and I have seen Christian stores that sale items, symbols of Christianity. When did the cross turn gold or silver or into diamonds? When did Christianity go for sale?

You know, you really don't know much about the Society, do you? Since 1990, the Great Crowd book salesmen have had to purchase the books they distribute from the Anointed Remnant. The Great Crowd then goes out door to door, and sometimes they are able to get reimbursed for their investment by selling the book to a householder. The Society is raking in millions by selling their low-cost books for a profit to the Great Crowd, who then must turn around and sell them to the public. It's kind of like a religious Avon organization.

You know of no other group which has unpaid clergy? How about the Mormons, buddy? They brag about that all the time. Oh, and by the way, our Baptist pastor is unpaid and has to work a ft job besides pastor our mission.

As far as your inability to grasp the teachings of the WT regarding the importance of the anointed remnant and their mediatorship, take a look at what the Aug. 1, 1981 Watchtower had to say:

"Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed brothers of Christ, and the treatment you accord them will be the dertermining factor as to whether you go into everlasting cutting-off or receive everlasting life."

Hard to believe, isn't it? This group actually is bold enough to say that it's the treatment you accord the anointed (the 144,000) leaders of their Society which will determine your salvation. Incredible!!!

[Topherlee]

You know, you really don't know much about the Society, do you? Since 1990, the Great Crowd book salesmen have had to purchase the books they distribute from the Anointed Remnant. The Great Crowd then goes out door to door, and sometimes they are able to get reimbursed for their investment by selling the book to a householder. The Society is raking in millions by selling their low-cost books for a profit to the Great Crowd, who then must turn around and sell them to the public. It's kind of like a religious Avon organization.

True, I do not know much about the Society. I try not to focus on the leaders of an organization, they are lead by men. What I listen for are the teachings. If it makes sense and it can be proven scripturally, then it is reliable information. Who said that, "truth is truth not matter where it comes from".
I have known many JW's through my years and have never heard of them selling books as if they were part of an Avon-like organization. Where are you getting this information from I wonder? And as far as making millions, hmmm, in comaparison to whom?

You know of no other group which has unpaid clergy? How about the Mormons, buddy? They brag about that all the time. Oh, and by the way, our Baptist pastor is unpaid and has to work a ft job besides pastor our mission.

Well we agree that service comes from within and not from the pocket.

As far as your inability to grasp the teachings of the WT regarding the importance of the anointed remnant and their mediatorship, take a look at what the Aug. 1, 1981 Watchtower had to say:

"Your attitude toward the wheatlike anointed brothers of Christ, and the treatment you accord them will be the dertermining factor as to whether you go into everlasting cutting-off or receive everlasting life."

Hard to believe, isn't it? This group actually is bold enough to say that it's the treatment you accord the anointed (the 144,000) leaders of their Society which will determine your salvation. Incredible!!!

Well I am not too familiar with the 144,000. I have not gone down this avenue of information. What I see is that more and more arguments that are being made are of the JW's beginnings. People still argue the teachings of Charles Taze Russell who no longer lives. The bible has been studied for years and years since his death. But yet, it is you that continue to argue it's inception. Maybe Charles stepped onto to something. You continue to look at his fallibility as a man and hence condemn the entire teachings.
One thing that I have come to understand from a JW is that the bible has been around for 2000 years and yet it is said that the bible still needs to be studied. I have been to a few congregations and what I have noticed is that they do refer to the bible more than compared to other churches. Other churches that maybe paraprhase two or three verses of scripture during an hour of sermon.

[Topherlee]

Now tell me about "Rabbinic Judaism" and their kosher store's, all things have to be endorsed by them- how many millions do they make?

I cannot speak for "Rabbinic Judaism" or for each man of his own will, but from what I gather is that their traditions are taken from scripture or beliefs. And if I am right, it only pertains to foods. I do not see it as a thing of vanity or pride.
Judaism a. Conforming to dietary laws; ritually pure: kosher meat. b. Selling or serving food prepared in accordance with dietary laws: a kosher restaurant.

And you are yet to answer what Job and Abraham were doing (Job chapter 1 and Gen 23:3)

Is this what you are speaking of? It could be their days of birth or not.
Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
But did you read 1:5;
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Being weaned is no longer being dependent, such as, the help of his mother or father for eating walking, etc...
Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.

-

[Sparko]

Is this what you are speaking of? It could be their days of birth or not.
Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
But did you read 1:5;
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.



-

er.. are you saying that Job thought celebrating 'their day' was sinful? That is not what it says. It says that Job thought that they might have sinned during their celebration and so he sacrificed. If the actual celebration was sinful, then he would not have said "it MAY be that my sons have sinned.." He would have said "My sons have sinned..." cuz he KNEW they celebrated "their days"

Sounds like a birthday party where the dad thought his kids got a little rowdy to me. The celebration was OK but he was worried they might have went a little too much overboard with it. The verse is just saying that Job was a good father who looked out for his kids.

[John from Ebla]

I cannot speak for "Rabbinic Judaism" or for each man of his own will, but from what I gather is that their traditions are taken from scripture or beliefs. And if I am right, it only pertains to foods. I do not see it as a thing of vanity or pride.
Judaism a. Conforming to dietary laws; ritually pure: kosher meat. b. Selling or serving food prepared in accordance with dietary laws: a kosher restaurant.

Point taken, but they are still making millions and telling people they are the ones endorsed for what we should eat.
1 Tim 1:3-11



Is this what you are speaking of? It could be their days of birth or not.
Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
But did you read 1:5;
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.]

Yes l did, what is wrong with Job doing that, he is caring about others especially his own household. Weren’t we told to look out and pray for each other? The point is Job and the scriptures do not say his Son’s sin and the “if” they sinned, was not in reference to the feast- it say’s that “they may have cursed God in their heart” Quote ‘May have” not ‘Did’ curse God.
The feast was not a maybe- it was held. Were they pagan?


Being weaned is no longer being dependent, such as, the help of his mother or father for eating walking, etc...
Genesis 21:8 And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.

So was he a pagan for doing a feast on the day of Isaacs 3rd year? (11 Maccabees 7:27 A Hebrew mother saying to her son that she gave "suck" for 3 years- meaning at three he was weaned.)

Kind regards
john From Ebla

[Topherlee]

er.. are you saying that Job thought celebrating 'their day' was sinful? That is not what it says. It says that Job thought that they might have sinned during their celebration and so he sacrificed. If the actual celebration was sinful, then he would not have said "it MAY be that my sons have sinned.." He would have said "My sons have sinned..." cuz he KNEW they celebrated "their days"

Well, this could be a two-folded theory. Maybe Job was unsure that celebrating a birthday was an attribute to sin, such as vanity or pride, in that "my sons may have sinned". Is it ever said that Job celebrated his birthday?

Sounds like a birthday party where the dad thought his kids got a little rowdy to me. The celebration was OK but he was worried they might have went a little too much overboard with it. The verse is just saying that Job was a good father who looked out for his kids.

Now whether or not it was a b-day party is still to be determined. The bible is clear in when it refers to the b-day party of the Pharoah and King Herod in calling them "birthdays". All we are given is "every one on his day" from the book of Job.
I know times and traditions have changed, but, were they throwing themselves b-day parties? As we today have someone else throw our b-day parties. I believe it can also mean a day of feast that every one of the sons was responsible for throwing such an occasion for the gathering of family. I know we do this in my family from time to time. My brother held a breakfast last month and that the whole family was invited to for no particular reason in other than the gathering of family.

-

[Topherlee]

Yes l did, what is wrong with Job doing that, he is caring about others especially his own household. Weren’t we told to look out and pray for each other? The point is Job and the scriptures do not say his Son’s sin and the “if” they sinned, was not in reference to the feast- it say’s that “they may have cursed God in their heart” Quote ‘May have” not ‘Did’ curse God.
The feast was not a maybe- it was held. Were they pagan?

See my previous post to Sparko.


So was he a pagan for doing a feast on the day of Isaacs 3rd year? (11 Maccabees 7:27 A Hebrew mother saying to her son that she gave "suck" for 3 years- meaning at three he was weaned.)

No, he was not pagan. But I hardly see how celebrating independence, for lack of a better word, applies to a yearly birthday celebration and how it is celebrated today.
People view b-days, Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc... as joyous occasions in the gathering of family and friends. What people do not see is that these traditions are obligations in a way that one feels he or she is obliged to partake - because it's tradition, not biblical traditions.
Just two years ago, from what I remember, was it such and urge and even a slogan to "put God back into Christmas". This is a prime example of man heeding to tradition more than God.

-

[Sparko]

can you say "rationalization?" :hehe:

[John from Ebla]

See my previous post to Sparko.-

l read your post to sparko- it's not a question of maybe he was unsure and as l pointed out in my previous post to you the question of sin was not about the feast.



No, he was not pagan. But I hardly see how celebrating independence, for lack of a better word, applies to a yearly birthday celebration and how it is celebrated today.

Just make sure you are not justifying yourself better than other because of an illusion you have about paganism- you said the following in your last post to me I cannot speak for "Rabbinic Judaism" or for each man of his own will, but from what I gather is that their traditions are taken from scripture or beliefs How is that you can speak for each man in Christianity- praising the New Born King is Biblical, while in 1 Tim 1:3-11 Paul speaks out against those you defended. "rationalization?"


People view b-days, Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc... as joyous occasions in the gathering of family and friends. What people do not see is that these traditions are obligations in a way that one feels he or she is obliged to partake - because it's tradition, not biblical traditions.

People yes, but how do you justify your double standed, One view for 'Rabbinic Judaism" and another for "Christinaity" Are you aware of what 'Rabbinic Judaism' say about your New Born king, they don't believe he is the King messiah that their scriptures say- so how could they be doing what the scriptures say.



Just two years ago, from what I remember, was it such and urge and even a slogan to "put God back into Christmas". This is a prime example of man heeding to tradition more than God.

How do you put God into anything? If you can justify how a family is sinning by showing their seven year old is seven today, or how a congregation is sinning because they praise the New Born King, then l might undertand. But when your argument is lop sided in favoritism of 'Rabbinic Judaism' that deny the scriptures about their New Born king, you show no Rationalism


Kind regards
John From Ebla

[NonTrinitarian]

“The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”-The Imperial
Bible Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225

‘The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander
(translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

“the Jews regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . .. , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the
day on which the party was born.”- Mc’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817

“Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were
born into this world below."-The Catholic Encyclopedia (New York, 1911), Volume X, page 709

“The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”— The World Book Encyclopedia: Volume 3, page 416.

“Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus—for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s) was a custom of the pagans.”- The Christian Book of Why

“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ.”-Frontier Magazine

“The celebration of the anniversary of an individual’s birth, though customary among the ancients, was originally frowned upon by the Christians,” -Curiosities of Popular Customs

“The annual celebration of a person's birth probably originated in Egypt, where the birthdays of rulers and gods were celebrated with feasts. The early Christians did not celebrate birthdays at all." Encyclopedia of Days

"The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles...Although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they
had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date" –Encyclopedia Americana 1991

Even Jesus’ birthday was not celebrated: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT
origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity."-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981 reprint), by John McClintock and James Strong, Volume II, page 276

[John from Ebla]

“The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”-The Imperial
Bible Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225

‘The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander
(translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

“the Jews regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . .. , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the
day on which the party was born.”- Mc’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817

“Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were
born into this world below."-The Catholic Encyclopedia (New York, 1911), Volume X, page 709

“The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”— The World Book Encyclopedia: Volume 3, page 416.

“Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus—for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s) was a custom of the pagans.”- The Christian Book of Why

“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ.”-Frontier Magazine

“The celebration of the anniversary of an individual’s birth, though customary among the ancients, was originally frowned upon by the Christians,” -Curiosities of Popular Customs

“The annual celebration of a person's birth probably originated in Egypt, where the birthdays of rulers and gods were celebrated with feasts. The early Christians did not celebrate birthdays at all." Encyclopedia of Days

"The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles...Although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they
had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date" –Encyclopedia Americana 1991

Even Jesus’ birthday was not celebrated: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT
origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity."-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981 reprint), by John McClintock and James Strong, Volume II, page 276




l don't dissagree with you, but, can you tell me about Job in Job 1:4 and Abraham in Genesis 21:8

A Feast is a Feast and the above two scriptures are not feasts instructed as part of what God gave to be observed- it easy to pick out pagans and the way they held their feast- but here we have two Righteous men in the eyes of God

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[NonTrinitarian]

l don't dissagree with you, but, can you tell me about Job in Job 1:4 and Abraham in Genesis 21:8

A Feast is a Feast and the above two scriptures are not feasts instructed as part of what God gave to be observed- it easy to pick out pagans and the way they held their feast- but here we have two Righteous men in the eyes of God

Kind regards
John From Ebla

What about Job 1:4 and Genesis 21:8? Neither one mentions a birthday party. The practice of birthday parties is mentioned in the Hebrew text with Pharoah so we know they had the grammatical means to say "birthday party" if Moses had wanted to say it. The Bible doesn't condemn feasts or getting together to eat and celebrate. The Jews did keep track of their births so they would know how old they are but again, nothing hints the threw a party every year on their birthday. I don't think the Bible directly condemns birthday parties because it doesn't say "Thou shall not celebrate birthdays" but I do think the pagan customs and origins of the birthday party is a concern for some Christians. Others may not feel it matters anymore.

I choose not to celebrate birthdays but am not about to say someones 5 year old daughter is going to be destoyed because she does.

[John from Ebla]

What about Job 1:4 and Genesis 21:8? Neither one mentions a birthday party. The practice of birthday parties is mentioned in the Hebrew text with Pharoah so we know they had the grammatical means to say "birthday party" if Moses had wanted to say it. The Bible doesn't condemn feasts or getting together to eat and celebrate. The Jews did keep track of their births so they would know how old they are but again, nothing hints the threw a party every year on their birthday. I don't think the Bible directly condemns birthday parties because it doesn't say "Thou shall not celebrate birthdays" but I do think the pagan customs and origins of the birthday party is a concern for some Christians. Others may not feel it matters anymore.

I choose not to celebrate birthdays but am not about to say someones 5 year old daughter is going to be destoyed because she does.

Why should they call it Birth day or party? You are missing the point A feast is a feast and call it what you like. Your response was not an answer

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[NonTrinitarian]

Why should they call it Birth day or party? You are missing the point A feats is a feast and call it what you like. Your response was not an answer

Kind regards
john From Ebla

It is an answer whether you like it or not. You are inserting your own assumptions into the text. IE, you read into the text "birthday" in place of "feast". There is nothing wrong with a feast. The Jews did enjoy feasts and they continue to do so. However, as the many encyclopedias I quoted show, the ancient Jews and early Christians definitely held a difference between a feast and a birthday party.

The bible has no problem identifying Pharoah's party as a celebration of his birthday so the onus is on you to prove that Job's kids were celebrating a birthday party when it doesn't say it was.

Based on the historical data, the fact that the Bible DOES specifically mention birthday parties elsewhere and that in no way does Job describe the party as a birthday celebration, I don't see any was I could give you an answer other than what I already did.

[NonTrinitarian]

You know, you really don't know much about the Society, do you? Since 1990, the Great Crowd book salesmen have had to purchase the books they distribute from the Anointed Remnant. The Great Crowd then goes out door to door, and sometimes they are able to get reimbursed for their investment by selling the book to a householder. The Society is raking in millions by selling their low-cost books for a profit to the Great Crowd, who then must turn around and sell them to the public. It's kind of like a religious Avon organization.


It is you that doesn't appear to know much about JW's. JW's do NOT "purchase" books and then get donations to regain the money they paid to get the books. A JW can get any literature he wants anytime he wants and doesn't have to pay a dime for it.

Where are you getting your inaccurate information?

[John from Ebla]

It is an answer whether you like it or not. You are inserting your own assumptions into the text. IE, you read into the text "birthday" in place of "feast". There is nothing wrong with a feast. The Jews did enjoy feasts and they continue to do so. However, as the many encyclopedias I quoted show, the ancient Jews and early Christians definitely held a difference between a feast and a birthday party.

The bible has no problem identifying Pharoah's party as a celebration of his birthday so the onus is on you to prove that Job's kids were celebrating a birthday party when it doesn't say it was.

Based on the historical data, the fact that the Bible DOES specifically mention birthday parties elsewhere and that in no way does Job describe the party as a birthday celebration, I don't see any was I could give you an answer other than what I already did.


l asked about what they were doing. You gave no answer

In Job 1:4 it say's they go to feast on each of his day. You gave no answer about this, other than showing your ignorance about the words “Feast” and “Day’s”

Why can Job can hold a feast and other cannot? This is what l am asking.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[NonTrinitarian]

l asked about what they were doing. You gave no answer

In Job 1:4 it say's they go to feast on each of his day. You gave no answer about this, other than showing your ignorance about the words “Feast” and “Day’s”

Why can Job can hold a feast and other cannot? This is what l am asking.

Kind regards
John From Ebla
Perhaps the children had a pattern of one child inviting the family over for a feast and then another child doing it another day. IE, one week it is Dave's day to hold the feast. The next week is Joe's day, yada yada yada. It's as easy to read that scenario into those verses as it is to read into it a birthday celebration which we know the Jews didn't practice.

And where do you get the idea that only Job could hold a feast and others could not? I know I'm jumping into the middle of the discussion but I don't seem to remember anyone saying that. Are you reading different posts from me?

[John from Ebla]

Perhaps the children had a pattern of one child inviting the family over for a feast and then another child doing it another day. IE, one week it is Dave's day to hold the feast. The next week is Joe's day, yada yada yada. It's as easy to read that scenario into those verses as it is to read into it a birthday celebration which we know the Jews didn't practice.

And where do you get the idea that only Job could hold a feast and others could not? I know I'm jumping into the middle of the discussion but I don't seem to remember anyone saying that. Are you reading different posts from me?

You still gave no response. Your post imply Job can hold a feast and others cannot. Why?

Kind Regards
John from Ebla

[NonTrinitarian]

You still gave no response. Your post imply Job can hold a feast and others cannot. Why?

Kind Regards
John from Ebla

I think there's some issues with you and the English language. Please quote from my post where I implied Job could have a feast and others could not.

Anyone can have a feast. Feasts are nice. I enjoy them. I have them alot with my friends.

[Gabby]

We usually have a feast day on or near my birthday. :teeth:

[Krusader]

I think there's some issues with you and the English language. Please quote from my post where I implied Job could have a feast and others could not.

Anyone can have a feast. Feasts are nice. I enjoy them. I have them alot with my friends.

Oh, yeh, those non-Trinitarian feasts are real bacchanalias!

[Sparko]

Oh, yeh, those non-Trinitarian feasts are real bacchanalias!

So I guess he is saying it's ok to have feast days and celebrations, just as long as you don't call them "birthday parties"

:rofl:

[NonTrinitarian]

So I guess he is saying it's ok to have feast days and celebrations, just as long as you don't call them "birthday parties"

:rofl:

Apparently that's what Jews and early Christians thought.:teeth: Don't kill the messenger for simply posting quote after quote of encyclopedias acknowledging Jews and early Christians didn't celebrate them.

[Krusader]

Apparently that's what Jews and early Christians thought.:teeth: Don't kill the messenger for simply posting quote after quote of encyclopedias acknowledging Jews and early Christians didn't celebrate them.

Interesting how this Non-Trinitarian hobnobed with all those early Christians. Why, over on the Christmas thread he even tells us what John, Paul and Peter were thinking. This guy has got to be really old.

[NonTrinitarian]

Interesting how this Non-Trinitarian hobnobed with all those early Christians. Why, over on the Christmas thread he even tells us what John, Paul and Peter were thinking. This guy has got to be really old.

It's called studying history. The library has some cool books called encyclopedias. You might find them interesting. Thus far, on three different threads you have not said anything in response more substantial than this. I don't see much fruit in talking with someone such as yourself.

[Krusader]

It's called studying history. The library has some cool books called encyclopedias. You might find them interesting. Thus far, on three different threads you have not said anything in response more substantial than this. I don't see much fruit in talking with someone such as yourself.

Tell me, guy, what do you think of Jesus Christ? And don't look in an encyclopedia (gee, thanks for telling me about those). What do you personally believe about Him (besides his dislike of birthdays)?

[Sparko]

Apparently that's what Jews and early Christians thought.:teeth: Don't kill the messenger for simply posting quote after quote of encyclopedias acknowledging Jews and early Christians didn't celebrate them.

So why is it OK to say have friends over for a football game and BBQ cookout feast and not OK to have a birthday feast?

Instead of worrying about what encyclopedias say, why not see what the Bible says? Does the bible say anywhere that you should NOT celebrate birthdays? please show me the verse.

The only verses I know of that speaks about Christians and celebrations are Paul's words here:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.



Paul pretty much is telling the JW's to go stuff their legalistic selves.

[NonTrinitarian]

So why is it OK to say have friends over for a football game and BBQ cookout feast and not OK to have a birthday feast?

Instead of worrying about what encyclopedias say, why not see what the Bible says? Does the bible say anywhere that you should NOT celebrate birthdays? please show me the verse.

So basically your opinion is to ignore any historical information about the Jews and early Christians? Kinda like the old stick your head in the sand practice. Talk about Sola Scripture to an extreme. Of course, what else can I expect when the historical information doesn't back up someones arguments. Let me ask you this. What's wrong with this feast?

"When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: “There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow.” 6 (http://6/) So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time"

Was this "festival to Jehovah" something God was proud of?


The only verses I know of that speaks about Christians and celebrations are Paul's words here:

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.



Paul pretty much is telling the JW's to go stuff their legalistic selves.

This is the most abused scripture I know that is used by people who try to justify their pagan practices.

"Do not let any many judge you in what you...drink." Do you think this means Paul was saying it was ok for Christians to go along with the Pagan practice of drinking blood? Hey, I'm drinking blood and Paul said you are not to judge me. Oh, BTW, the Wiccans are having a relogious festival tomorrow. Should be some good food their. What? It's a pagan festival that the other Christians won't attend? What's the difference between eating food their and eating food at home with my friends? Hey, didn't you know Paul said, "do not let anyone judge you... with regard to a religious festival?" Oh yeah, and where's the scripture that says I am not to attend pagan festivals?

Your abuse of Paul's words is a desperate attempt to 1.) totally ignore the historical data regarding early Christians and 2.) give you a license to basically do whatever you want unless it's spelled out word for word. Since the Bible doesn't say anything about abortions you probably think they're ok too. Rather than looking for the exact wording, look for the principles.

[NonTrinitarian]

Tell me, guy, what do you think of Jesus Christ? And don't look in an encyclopedia (gee, thanks for telling me about those). What do you personally believe about Him (besides his dislike of birthdays)?

Is it always your practice to change the subject? This thread is about birthdays. Jesus didn't celebrate his. Neither did his followers. Why do you?

[Sparko]

So basically your opinion is to ignore any historical information about the Jews and early Christians? Kinda like the old stick your head in the sand practice.

There is no historical data regarding a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are sinful. You are taking a LACK of information and building a mountain of doctrine on it. The bible never says celebrating a birthday is sinful. It does have several comparable celebrations that are held that are not sinful so why should a birthday be sinful to celebrate? There are religious feasts, a feast of celebration when the prodigal son came home, a wedding celebration and feast that Jesus even participated in, and so on.

Speaking of which, don't JW's celebrate weddings? Don't they have showers, receptions and get gifts and such? How is that different than a birthday party?

What about wedding anniversaries? Don't they celebrate THOSE? How is that any different than a birthday celebration?

Why are birthdays taboo and wedding anniversaries OK?

Like you said, look at the principles. There is nothing wrong with celebrating a birth. Stop being so legalistic.

[NonTrinitarian]

There is no historical data regarding a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are sinful. You are taking a LACK of information and building a mountain of doctrine on it. The bible never says celebrating a birthday is sinful. It does have several comparable celebrations that are held that are not sinful so why should a birthday be sinful to celebrate? There are religious feasts, a feast of celebration when the prodigal son came home, a wedding celebration and feast that Jesus even participated in, and so on.

Speaking of which, don't JW's celebrate weddings? Don't they have showers, receptions and get gifts and such? How is that different than a birthday party?

What about wedding anniversaries? Don't they celebrate THOSE? How is that any different than a birthday celebration?

Why are birthdays taboo and wedding anniversaries OK?

Like you said, look at the principles. There is nothing wrong with celebrating a birth. Stop being so legalistic.

Well, I can see that lack of proof for your stance is frustrating to you. The irony is you say I have the lack of information. I see no need to debate with you because you offer zero proof for anything. The example I posed to you about the Festival to Jehovah (and your subsequent ignoring of it) demonstrates that we have to look deeper than just a statement of "Thou Shall Not Have A Festival to Jehovah". God was about to wipe out the Israelites for their throwing a "Festival to Jehovah" because of the pagan practices accompanying it.

Apparently the Jews and earlier Christians didn't share your viewpoint that "there is nothing wrong" with birthdays. They indeed celebrated a babies birth when it was born but did they do so every year there after? Lets see what "lack of information" I have.


“The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”-The Imperial Bible Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225

‘The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

“the Jews regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . .. , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the day on which the party was born.”- Mc’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817

“Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below."-The Catholic Encyclopedia (New York, 1911), Volume X, page 709

“The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”— The World Book Encyclopedia: Volume 3, page 416.

“Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus—for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s) was a custom of the pagans.”- The Christian Book of Why

“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ.”-Frontier Magazine

“The celebration of the anniversary of an individual’s birth, though customary among the ancients, was originally frowned upon by the Christians,” -Curiosities of Popular Customs

“The annual celebration of a person's birth probably originated in Egypt, where the birthdays of rulers and gods were celebrated with feasts. The early Christians did not celebrate birthdays at all." Encyclopedia of Days

"The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles...Although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date" –Encyclopedia Americana 1991

Even Jesus’ birthday was not celebrated: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity."-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981 reprint), by John McClintock and James Strong, Volume II, page 276


You might want to grab an encyclopedia and learn about the origins and customs of the birthday party. Why did they gather together? Why the gifts? Why the cake and candles? Did someone just say "Hey, I have an idea, let's start a custom of all of us gathering together at someones house when it is his birthday. We can make a cake, put candles on it, wish him happy birthday and give gifts to the birthday boy. " If you think that 'just happened' you are grossly mis-informed. None of those practices just started. There were religious reasons for them and it was a religion not associated with God. This is why the Jews and early Christians did not celebrate them. They didn't need a "don't celebrate birthdays" command in the Bible. But their decision to not celebrate is totally based on their worship to God.

The ONLY argument you could even POSSIBLY make is that even though the candles were used to scare of the wicked spirits of the dead in the past, they are not used for that now. And that argument may have some validity. But we try to pattern ourselves after the early Christians and so choose not to celebrate birthdays, just as Jesus didn't celebrate birthdays. Unless you have some counter-evidence that says otherwise, it is not I who am lacking information.

[Sparko]

Well, I can see that lack of proof for your stance is frustrating to you. The irony is you say I have the lack of information. I see no need to debate with you because you offer zero proof for anything. The example I posed to you about the Festival to Jehovah (and your subsequent ignoring of it) demonstrates that we have to look deeper than just a statement of "Thou Shall Not Have A Festival to Jehovah". God was about to wipe out the Israelites for their throwing a "Festival to Jehovah" because of the pagan practices accompanying it.

So if you have a celebration but it has pagan practices in it, then it is forbidden?

Then why do JW's celebrate wedding anniversaries? They give gifts then too, isn't that pagan? They are honoring each other, isn't that idol worship? They are honoring a specific day, THEIR day, just like a birthday anniversary. They wear wedding rings which have pagan origins. They go on honeymoons which have pagan origins. Weddings and wedding anniversaries have just as much if not MORE pagan practices involved in them than birthdays do. We actually have an example of a birthday celebration in the bible, that of Jesus himself. The angels even celebrated his birth, Jesus was even given gifts and they were accepted!

Why is it OK to honor your wife on her wedding anniversary but not to honor her on Mother's day or her birthday?

Also they celebrated their own anniversary. There was a big 100 year anniversary when the WTS turned 100. Why is it ok to celebrate the anniverary of an organization but not a person?



HMM??? Can you say hypocrite? I can. Jehovah's Witnesses are Hypocrites.

[NonTrinitarian]

So if you have a celebration but it has pagan practices in it, then it is forbidden?

Then why do JW's celebrate wedding anniversaries? They give gifts then too, isn't that pagan? They are honoring each other, isn't that idol worship? They are honoring a specific day, THEIR day, just like a birthday anniversary. They wear wedding rings which have pagan origins. They go on honeymoons which have pagan origins. Weddings and wedding anniversaries have just as much if not MORE pagan practices involved in them than birthdays do. We actually have an example of a birthday celebration in the bible, that of Jesus himself. The angels even celebrated his birth, Jesus was even given gifts and they were accepted!

Why is it OK to honor your wife on her wedding anniversary but not to honor her on Mother's day or her birthday?

Also they celebrated their own anniversary. There was a big 100 year anniversary when the WTS turned 100. Why is it ok to celebrate the anniverary of an organization but not a person?



HMM??? Can you say hypocrite? I can. Jehovah's Witnesses are Hypocrites.

Again, you like many others, just ignore any evidence presented to you. You make no attempt to address the numerous quotes verifying Christians didn't celebrate birthdays. You don't address the religious origins of the birthday customs.

Not all customs are bad. It has to do with the religious aspect of it. Pagans might have the custom of walking down the right side of the street. That doesn't mean christians can't walk down the right side of the road. But if they walk down the right side of the street, turning around every 10 steps and saying "boo" in order to scare evil spirits away, is this a custom Christians would do?

Do not 99% of the people make a wish and then blow out candles? What? Did that just happen? Did someone just make that up as a cool thing to do? Do not parents lead their children to believe that if they blow out all the candles their wih may come true? This is acceptable to a Christian?

Instead of voicing your opinion, why don't you do some research on birthdays. Answer my questions on where this stuff came from. It's not just a pagan custom. It's based on false worship. It can't take you too long to research this on the internt. I just did a quick glance a minute ago because I forgot how the cake came about and low and behold, I found another quote about Christians and birthdays I didn't know existed.

Origen of Alexandria, in 245 A.D., wrote in a dissertation on Leviticus:

“. . . none of the saints can be found who ever held a feast or a banquet upon his birthday, or rejoiced on the day when his son or daughter was born. But sinners rejoice and make merry on such days. For we find in the Old Testament that Pharaoh, king of Egypt, celebrated his birthday with a feast, and that Herod, in the New Testament did the same. But the saints not only neglect to mark the day of their birth with festivity, but also, filled with the Holy Spirit, they curse this day, after the example of Job and Jeremiah and David."

You can add that to my list of "lack of information."

So why do YOU think the christians didn't celebrate birthdays? And when did it all of a sudden become ok to do so?

BTW, want to address one other fallacy in your logic. You mention the angels celebrating Jesus' birth. Did you not read in my post that they did celebrate the initial birth of a child but not it's subsequent birthdays? Do you not read my posts or do you just pretend to be ignorant?

[Sparko]

Again, you like many others, just ignore any evidence presented to you. You make no attempt to address the numerous quotes verifying Christians didn't celebrate birthdays. You don't address the religious origins of the birthday customs.

And you totally ignored the pagan religious origins of such things as Honeymoons and wedding rings. How come?

Not all customs are bad. It has to do with the religious aspect of it. Pagans might have the custom of walking down the right side of the street. That doesn't mean christians can't walk down the right side of the road. But if they walk down the right side of the street, turning around every 10 steps and saying "boo" in order to scare evil spirits away, is this a custom Christians would do?

So how is celebrating the anniversary of someone's birth pagan? How is giving them gifts pagan? You celebrate other anniversaries so anniversay celebration must be OK. You give gifts on other occasions, so gift giving must not be pagan. You said celebrating a birth is not wrong. So what is wrong with celebrating a birthday?



Do not 99% of the people make a wish and then blow out candles? What? Did that just happen? Did someone just make that up as a cool thing to do? Do not parents lead their children to believe that if they blow out all the candles their wih may come true? This is acceptable to a Christian?

So the Candles are pagan? Whoopdie doo! So why can't JW's celebrate birthdays but without blowing out candles and making wishes? Hmmm?



Instead of voicing your opinion, why don't you do some research on birthdays. Answer my questions on where this stuff came from. It's not just a pagan custom. It's based on false worship. It can't take you too long to research this on the internt. I just did a quick glance a minute ago because I forgot how the cake came about and low and behold, I found another quote about Christians and birthdays I didn't know existed.

Wedding cakes are not pagan, then? :rofl:


BTW, want to address one other fallacy in your logic. You mention the angels celebrating Jesus' birth. Did you not read in my post that they did celebrate the initial birth of a child but not it's subsequent birthdays? Do you not read my posts or do you just pretend to be ignorant?

So like I said above, it is OK to celebrate an actual birth and give presents then, but not to celebrate the anniversaries of that birth? But it IS OK to celebrate other anniversaries, like wedding anniversaries full of pagan symbolism, and Watchtower anniversaries, and such?

How inconsistant is that?

Not only that, but I know its a fact that many JW's will have celebrations NEAR the day of someones' birthday where they give gifts and such so they basically do celebrate birthdays but kinda 'fudge' it to keep it 'legal'


:lmbo:

[Gabby]

I think we should give up on weddings. It's rife with pagan practises (http://www.hudsonvalleyweddings.com/guide/customs.htm) and rituals. :no:

The custom of proposing on one knee hearkens back to the days of knighthood and chivalry when it was customary for a knight to dip his knee in a show of servitude to his mistress and his master. The knight would kneel before before a tournament and wait for "his" lady to toss him her ribbon or colors, as an indication of her favor.

The origin of the ring on the third finger has several theoretical explanations. One says it dates back to the 17th century. Presumably, at Christian weddings, the priest touched the three fingers on the left hand, while reciting "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Another theory claims the custom dates back to ancient Egypt, where it was believed that the "ring finger" followed the vena amoris (vein of love), which runs from this finger directly to the heart.

Bridesmaids and ushers have their roots in Roman law which prescribed that ten witnesses be present at a wedding to fool evil spirits who, it was believed, were in attendance at marriages with the purpose of causing mischief and disharmony. The bridesmaids and ushers were instructed to dress identically to the bride and groom, in order to confuse the evil spirits who presumably would then not know who was really getting married.

It was thought that the white wedding gown also served to ward off evil spirits. Omens and evil spirits and good luck tokens were always a part of the wedding gown tradition. It was said that the bride should never make her own dress and should wait to have the last stitch sewn until just before she entered the church. It was also a popular traditon that the bride should not try on her complete wedding outfit before the wedding day or, it was felt, she would be "counting her chickens before they hatched."


The bridal bouquet had its earliest beginnings as a bunch of fragrant herbs who "job" it was to discourage evil spirits from getting close to the bride. It started not as a bouquet, but, with Greeks and Romans, as a garland of fresh herbs which the bride wore in her hair. In Victorian times, the flowers in a bride's bouquet carried messages, because each flower had its own special meaning.


"Something Old" symbolizes the connection the bride will maintain to her family and the past. Many brides abide by this tradition by choosing to wear an heirloom piece of family jewelry or the wedding gown belonging to a grand mother or mother.
"Something New" connotes good fortune and success in the bride's new life. The wedding dress is most often the chosen new item.
"Something Borrowed" serves to remind the bride that friends and family will be there for her whenever she may need their support or assistance. The borrowed object can be most anything of her choosing, such as an antique handkerchief, an item of jewelry or a handbag.
"Something Blue" denotes faithfulness and loyalty. The symbolism dates back to biblical times when blue represented purity and constancy. Brides often choose to wear a blue garter to keep with this tradition, or, blue ribbons in their hair to symbolize fidelity.
"A Silver Sixpence in her Shoe" represents the wishes of loved ones to the bride, in the hope that she will have both financial security and happiness.


And then there is the kiss at the end of the wedding ceremony. In ancient times, the kiss was legally binding and signified mutual acceptance of the contract of marriage. It is said that the bride and the groom "exchanged a bit of their souls" with the breath of a kiss!


A wedding cake is the traditional centerpiece at the wedding reception. You might find it interesting that originally, the cake was not eaten by, but thrown at the bride! It developed as one of the many fertility traditions surrounding a wedding. Ancient Romans believed that wheat and barley were symbols of fertility and so, wedding cakes included one or both of these ingredients. Incidentally, wheat was among the earliest grains (predating rice) to be ceremoniously showered on the bride and groom. In its earliest origins, the unmarried young women attending the wedding were expected to scramble for the grains to ensure their own betrothals, much as they do today for the bridal bouquet. Somewhere around 100 B.C.E., Roman bakers began creating small, sweet cakes with it. The tradition of pelting the bride, or breaking it over her head, died hard. The Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius in "On the Nature of Things" ("De Rerum Natura") wrote that the throwing tradition mellowed into a custom of crumbling the sweet, wheat cakes over the bride's head. As a further symbol of fertility, the couple was required to eat some of the crumbs, a custom known as "confarreato," translated into "eating together." After all the cakes were used up, the guests were supplied with handfuls of "confetto," a sweet meats mixture of nuts, dried fruit, and honeyed almonds.

More of the same

http://mimi.essortment.com/originswedding_rrnp.htm
http://www.d.umn.edu/~schilton/Articles/Wedding.html

[Topherlee]

And you totally ignored the pagan religious origins of such things as Honeymoons and wedding rings. How come?

So how is celebrating the anniversary of someone's birth pagan? How is giving them gifts pagan? You celebrate other anniversaries so anniversay celebration must be OK. You give gifts on other occasions, so gift giving must not be pagan. You said celebrating a birth is not wrong. So what is wrong with celebrating a birthday?

So the Candles are pagan? Whoopdie doo! So why can't JW's celebrate birthdays but without blowing out candles and making wishes? Hmmm?
So like I said above, it is OK to celebrate an actual birth and give presents then, but not to celebrate the anniversaries of that birth? But it IS OK to celebrate other anniversaries, like wedding anniversaries full of pagan symbolism, and Watchtower anniversaries, and such?

I do not see anything wrong with celebrating the birth of a child. But I cannot see how you can compare a birthday to a marriage anniversary. When you are married, you make a vow to be one, in the eyes of God you have become one, as Jesus our Lord preached the oneness of He and his Father. You made this union until "death do we part" and this promise you have made not only to eachother, but to God. A marriage anniversary is to celebrate that union and your promise made to God.
I have been to many a many b-day celebrations and have never once heard the b-day boy or girl, man or woman, thank God for that year. And that they make wish and not a prayer. A birthday party is celebrated as if our years are numbered.

Not only that, but I know its a fact that many JW's will have celebrations NEAR the day of someones' birthday where they give gifts and such so they basically do celebrate birthdays but kinda 'fudge' it to keep it 'legal'

Let he has not sinned cast the first stone. People are not perfect, JW are like you and I, people. They fight the temptations of the flesh, but there are those who truly hold to the spirit. You only choose to see the negative.

[NonTrinitarian]

And you totally ignored the pagan religious origins of such things as Honeymoons and wedding rings. How come?

So how is celebrating the anniversary of someone's birth pagan? How is giving them gifts pagan? You celebrate other anniversaries so anniversay celebration must be OK. You give gifts on other occasions, so gift giving must not be pagan. You said celebrating a birth is not wrong. So what is wrong with celebrating a birthday?

So the Candles are pagan? Whoopdie doo! So why can't JW's celebrate birthdays but without blowing out candles and making wishes? Hmmm?

Wedding cakes are not pagan, then? :rofl:

So like I said above, it is OK to celebrate an actual birth and give presents then, but not to celebrate the anniversaries of that birth? But it IS OK to celebrate other anniversaries, like wedding anniversaries full of pagan symbolism, and Watchtower anniversaries, and such?

How inconsistant is that?

Not only that, but I know its a fact that many JW's will have celebrations NEAR the day of someones' birthday where they give gifts and such so they basically do celebrate birthdays but kinda 'fudge' it to keep it 'legal'



When one has nothing to say, such as yourself, you ramble with idioticies. I already explained the difference between religious pagan customs and customs in general.

End result: I handle bithday's the same way Jesus' family and his friends did. Paul, Peter, Timothy, John, James, etc., all treated birthdays the way I do. I'm not the one who has some explaining to do. You do. Enough said.

[Sparko]

When one has nothing to say, such as yourself, you ramble with idioticies. I already explained the difference between religious pagan customs and customs in general.

End result: I handle bithday's the same way Jesus' family and his friends did. Paul, Peter, Timothy, John, James, etc., all treated birthdays the way I do. I'm not the one who has some explaining to do. You do. Enough said.

Translation: "Dang! I don't have a snappy comeback. I better just pick up my toys and go home"

:lmbo:



----
Yep, JW's don't have a leg to stand on. They celebrate weddings and wedding anniversaries that are rife with pagan religious symbols and deny a simple birthday party to bring joy to the life of their children. It must suck to grow up in a JW home. Watching all their friends getting presents on Christmas and on Birthdays and even watching their mom's and dad's exchange anniversary presents and celebrating them, all the while they get nothing, not even an acknowledgement of their worth with a simple "happy birthday" greeting or card. How sad.

[NonTrinitarian]

Translation: "Dang! I don't have a snappy comeback. I better just pick up my toys and go home"

:lmbo:
----
Yep, JW's don't have a leg to stand on. They celebrate weddings and wedding anniversaries that are rife with pagan religious symbols and deny a simple birthday party to bring joy to the life of their children. It must suck to grow up in a JW home. Watching all their friends getting presents on Christmas and on Birthdays and even watching their mom's and dad's exchange anniversary presents and celebrating them, all the while they get nothing, not even an acknowledgement of their worth with a simple "happy birthday" greeting or card. How sad.

“The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”-The Imperial
Bible Dictionary (London, 1874), edited by Patrick Fairbairn, Vol. I, p. 225

‘The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general.”—The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries (New York, 1848), Augustus Neander
(translated by Henry John Rose), p. 190.

“the Jews regarded birthday celebrations as parts of idolatrous worship . .. , and this probably on account of the idolatrous rites with which they were observed in honor of those who were regarded as the patron gods of the
day on which the party was born.”- Mc’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1882, Vol. I, p. 817

“Of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were
born into this world below."-The Catholic Encyclopedia (New York, 1911), Volume X, page 709

“The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”— The World Book Encyclopedia: Volume 3, page 416.

“Christians of the first century did not celebrate the festival honoring the birth of Jesus—for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s) was a custom of the pagans.”- The Christian Book of Why

“To the early Christians, birthdays were a pagan custom. It was unthinkable to celebrate one’s own birthday, much less the birthday of Christ.”-Frontier Magazine

“The celebration of the anniversary of an individual’s birth, though customary among the ancients, was originally frowned upon by the Christians,” -Curiosities of Popular Customs

“The annual celebration of a person's birth probably originated in Egypt, where the birthdays of rulers and gods were celebrated with feasts. The early Christians did not celebrate birthdays at all." Encyclopedia of Days

"The ancient world of Egypt, Greece, Rome and Persia celebrated the birthdays of gods, kings, and nobles...Although the ancient Israelis kept records of the ages of their male citizens, there is no evidence that they
had any festivities on the anniversary of the birth date" –Encyclopedia Americana 1991



Origen of Alexandria, in 245 A.D., wrote in a dissertation on Leviticus:

“. . . none of the saints can be found who ever held a feast or a banquet upon his birthday, or rejoiced on the day when his son or daughter was born. But sinners rejoice and make merry on such days. For we find in the Old Testament that Pharaoh, king of Egypt, celebrated his birthday with a feast, and that Herod, in the New Testament did the same. But the saints not only neglect to mark the day of their birth with festivity, but also, filled with the Holy Spirit, they curse this day, after the example of Job and Jeremiah and David.



Even Jesus’ birthday was not celebrated: “The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment, nor is it of NT
origin. The day of Christ's birth cannot be ascertained from the NT, or, indeed, from any other source. The fathers of the first three centuries do not speak of any special observance of the nativity."-Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1981 reprint), by John McClintock and James Strong, Volume II, page 276

Kind of hard to beat that, don't you think?

Rather than argue against those facts, you try to deflect the blows. So go ahead and condemn me for celebrating my wedding anniversary if you want. It doesn't change the fact that you are totally different from Jesus and first century followers. And his second century followers. And his third century followers. Now of course, you have the Roman Catholic apostasy happening in the fourth century. Hey, there you go! You finally got a generation of supposed Christians you have something in common with!:lol:

[Sparko]

I guess all you can do is quote out of context and obscure encyclopedia quotes and have no rational reasoning to justify your beliefs huh?

Hard to think for yourself when you have been spoonfed lies by the watchtower.

I feel sorry for your children if you have any, who have to watch you celebrate your wedding anniversaries with gifts and feasts while they sit in their rooms on their birthdays without even a card or a "happy birthday" greeting. That's showing them the real love of Christ, isn't it?

And you never did answer the problem of why you think it is OK to celebrate weddings and wedding anniversaries when both are filled with pagan religious practices? Why is that OK and birthdays NOT OK?

Can you speak for yourself instead of quoting encyclopedias? (arguing soley via quotes is actually against theologyweb rules by the way, we want you to use your own reasoning and not rely soley on others words)

[Gabby]

My quotes are feeling so ignored. :sad:

[Sparko]

All I am trying to get non-trin to consider is that if he is right and birthdays are not to be celebrated because of pagan practices, then he should feel the same way about weddings and wedding anniversaries. Why the double standard?

And why can't they celebrate birthdays without the pagan practices?

[Gabby]

Oh, I know Sparko. I'm just being a noob.

[Sparko]

The good thing about the Jehovah's witnesses being so legalistic about such things as holidays and birthdays is that it is a big reason for people finally seeing the truth and leaving the cult. So maybe its for the best in the long run. but I sure feel sorry for the children who have to live through such a lifestyle

[Krusader]

Interestingly, I think the Watchtower is moderating its ban on birthdays (due, especially to the fact that JWs are buying birthday presents), and will probably make it a matter of "conscience" in the future. New Light, I guess.

[NonTrinitarian]

JW's are "leaving" the truth? Our membership grows by hundreds of thousands every year. What is your religion growing by? Baptists, Methodist, Presbyterian, Luthern and many other religions are declining every year. Not so with JW's. And BTW, our numbers only consider active members. We don't do like my old Methodist church did where I hadn't attended for over a decade and found out they were still counting me as a member of their church. If a JW doesn't go in the ministry, he's not counted among the 6,750,000 members, even if he attended every meeting at the Kingdom Hall and swore up and down he was a JW. But that's a different subject.

Just for the sake of argument though, let's assume you are correct about my being a hypocrite when I celebrate my wedding anniversary. So what? That just means I'm gong to hell with you (if you believe in hell). What answer do you have for birthdays? Why did the apostles not think it was ok to celebrate them and when did their opinion become wrong?

Basically both of yours arguments are side-step arguments. Why should I waste my time explaining the difference between anniversaries and birthdays when you won't ever address birthdays? It's like me telling you that smoking is going to kill you if you don't stop doing it and you replying, 'well, eating too much red meat will kill you too. You're a hypocrite because you eat too much red meat.'

So answer two questions: Why did the apostles not celebrate birthdays and when did they become wrong in their stance?

[NonTrinitarian]

Interestingly, I think the Watchtower is moderating its ban on birthdays (due, especially to the fact that JWs are buying birthday presents), and will probably make it a matter of "conscience" in the future. New Light, I guess.

Crusader doens't know squat about JW's. Earlier she said they "bought" their literature from the Hall and then tried to recoup their money back in the door to door, which is a bunch of hog wash. Additionally, I know hundreds and hundreds of JW's who don't even think about birthdays. You all seem to think we sit at home wishing we could celebrate them. That's all my daughter needs is another reason for a toy. She gets too many as it is.

So Crusader, let's see your source for this new light. I'm calling you out as a liar.

Accusations of lying must be rigorously substantiated.

[Gabby]

JW's are "leaving" the truth? Our membership grows by hundreds of thousands every year. What is your religion growing by? Baptists, Methodist, Presbyterian, Luthern and many other religions are declining every year. Not so with JW's. And BTW, our numbers only consider active members. We don't do like my old Methodist church did where I hadn't attended for over a decade and found out they were still counting me as a member of their church. If a JW doesn't go in the ministry, he's not counted among the 6,750,000 members, even if he attended every meeting at the Kingdom Hall and swore up and down he was a JW. But that's a different subject.

Just for the sake of argument though, let's assume you are correct about my being a hypocrite when I celebrate my wedding anniversary. So what? That just means I'm gong to hell with you (if you believe in hell). What answer do you have for birthdays? Why did the apostles not think it was ok to celebrate them and when did their opinion become wrong?

Basically both of yours arguments are side-step arguments. Why should I waste my time explaining the difference between anniversaries and birthdays when you won't ever address birthdays? It's like me telling you that smoking is going to kill you if you don't stop doing it and you replying, 'well, eating too much red meat will kill you too. You're a hypocrite because you eat too much red meat.'

So answer two questions: Why did the apostles not celebrate birthdays and when did they become wrong in their stance?


How do you know they did not celebrate birthday feasts? Is there somewhere in the NT where it is stated by them? Or are you just taking the word of another man?

[NonTrinitarian]

How do you know they did not celebrate birthday feasts? Is there somewhere in the NT where it is stated by them? Or are you just taking the word of another man?
I'm taking the words of a BUNCH of sources. Did you read the quotes from the encyclopedieas? I even quote someone from the 3rd century. I would question the humilty of anyone who is bold enough to say all of these sources are wrong when there is NOTHING in the Bible to refute them. Noting also that date of the greatest birth on Earth was not even deemed important to write down.

(I am not saying you are not humble because maybe you didn't read the quotes more closely but I don't see how anyone who has read them can stand here with a straight face and argue they did celebrate birthdays.)

[Gabby]

I'm taking the words of a BUNCH of sources. Did you read the quotes from the encyclopedieas? I even quote someone from the 3rd century. I would question the humilty of anyone who is bold enough to say all of these sources are wrong when there is NOTHING in the Bible to refute them. Noting also that date of the greatest birth on Earth was not even deemed important to write down.

(I am not saying you are not humble because maybe you didn't read the quotes more closely but I don't see how anyone who has read them can stand here with a straight face and argue they did celebrate birthdays.)

You sound like an angry guy. Maybe I just came in too late on this conversation. However, the bible is my source and I only rely on it. If that makes me arrogant, than so be it.

[Sparko]

I'm taking the words of a BUNCH of sources. Did you read the quotes from the encyclopedieas? I even quote someone from the 3rd century. I would question the humilty of anyone who is bold enough to say all of these sources are wrong when there is NOTHING in the Bible to refute them. Noting also that date of the greatest birth on Earth was not even deemed important to write down.

(I am not saying you are not humble because maybe you didn't read the quotes more closely but I don't see how anyone who has read them can stand here with a straight face and argue they did celebrate birthdays.)

Whether they celebrated birthdays or not makes no difference. It doesn't make birthdays evil if they did not. They didn't do a lot of things we do now. better stop using the internet! the apostles didn't use it!

You better not eat pork! the apostles didn't! don't wear polyester blends! the apostles didn't!!!

And just because the Pharoah and Herod DID celebrate birthdays doesn't make them automatically evil either! The Pharoah and Herod did lots of things that we do today and we don't think they are evil. I bet they even celebrated their wedding anniversary!

arguing from silence and using guilt by association is all you have Non-trin. and its so sad. and absurd.

Merry Christmas!!!

[Topherlee]

You sound like an angry guy. Maybe I just came in too late on this conversation. However, the bible is my source and I only rely on it. If that makes me arrogant, than so be it.

The bible should be your main source - period. But what is so great about the bible is that it coincides with history. The bible can be used in every day life and it can also be used as a history book. The stories in the bible are historical - in that they actually took place.
To study the history outside the bible is pertinent as well in my opinion when it pertains to the bible. You can see how man has influenced many and their perception or thoughts on the bible by means of interpratation.
I don't think of NonTrinitarian as an angry person, he's just dealing with blocked minds.

[NonTrinitarian]

You sound like an angry guy. Maybe I just came in too late on this conversation. However, the bible is my source and I only rely on it. If that makes me arrogant, than so be it.

So did Jesus when he spoke to those who were too proud to see the truth.

At least I haven't called anyone "offspring of vipers":teeth:

I rely on the Bible too. The Bible only mentions birthdays being celebrated by pagans (Pharoah and Herod). It never gives us the birthdate of anyone, including Jesus, though we do know the date of his death. Thus far the ONLY arguments I've heard are 1.) emotional arguments for how wonderful BD's are and how my poor child (who has too many toys as it is) doesn't get to enjoy it and 2.) Other stuff is pagan so I'm a hypocrite.

In regards to item 1, my daughter has an inground swimming pool she can dive into. Most kids don't. So everyone here needs to quit mistreating their children and go by a pool. Think of all the pool parties their poor children are missing that my daughter gets. She may miss one party a year but their kids are missing a whole summers worth of pool parties at our house. Does that sound like a reasonable argument for making you go out and by a pool? Of course not! It's ridiculous. That's about how powerful their argument is to me in regards to my daughter's birthday. My princess anything but mistreated and if missing a BD party is mistreating her then how much more so for all the pool parties their kids miss.

Item 2 is just a side step. For the sake of argument I granted that anniverseries are bad. So what? So I go to hell with them. You see, that's not an argument. Whether an anniversary is also pagan or if I also celebrate them doesn't some how make birthdays correct. It's poor logic and in fact is no argument at all. It's like my illustration above with smoking and eating red meat. It's nonsense to argue it's ok for you to smoke if I eat red meat and die of a heart attack. How does that make you dying of lung cancer ok?

And you cannot ignore historical data. Especially when it is in harmony with the Bible. The historical records show Christians didn't celebrate birthdays. The Bible doesn't refute that and even seems to support by not mentioning anyones birthdate. The Bible and those encyclopedias are not in conflict with each other. They're in agreement. And nothing except an appeal to emotion has been offered to refute it.

[NonTrinitarian]

Whether they celebrated birthdays or not makes no difference. It doesn't make birthdays evil if they did not. They didn't do a lot of things we do now. better stop using the internet! the apostles didn't use it!

You better not eat pork! the apostles didn't! don't wear polyester blends! the apostles didn't!!!

And just because the Pharoah and Herod DID celebrate birthdays doesn't make them automatically evil either! The Pharoah and Herod did lots of things that we do today and we don't think they are evil. I bet they even celebrated their wedding anniversary!

arguing from silence and using guilt by association is all you have Non-trin. and its so sad. and absurd.

Merry Christmas!!!

It's childish arguments like this that make me feel I waste my time here. But what else can I expect when all you appeal to are emotion and argument by silence. The Bible is not silent on pagans celebrating birthdays. It is silent on Christians celebrating them. The historical data is not silent on the christians NOT celebrating birthdays, it is silent on them celebrating them. So which one of us is really using argument by silence? You're whole argument is purely emotional. "I like birthdays. What's wrong with birthdays? What about the kids. Wa Wa Wa."

And you're right. I am proud to use the 'guilt by association' stance. You unwittingly just admitted I am associated with the early Christians. Something I'm proud of. And I can assure you if all the historical records said "early christians did not use the internet, wear polyester or eat pork", I would not use the internet, wear polyester or eat pork. (BTW, the christians did eat pork)

[Topherlee]

Whether they celebrated birthdays or not makes no difference. It doesn't make birthdays evil if they did not. They didn't do a lot of things we do now. better stop using the internet! the apostles didn't use it!

You better not eat pork! the apostles didn't! don't wear polyester blends! the apostles didn't!!!

And just because the Pharoah and Herod DID celebrate birthdays doesn't make them automatically evil either! The Pharoah and Herod did lots of things that we do today and we don't think they are evil. I bet they even celebrated their wedding anniversary!

arguing from silence and using guilt by association is all you have Non-trin. and its so sad. and absurd.

Merry Christmas!!!

I don't mean to intercede here Sparko, but, have you given in to the thought and why the bible associates the Pharoah and King Herod to birthdays? How about because these two men were not men of God. Instead of looking at it from your tradtional view or for what pleases your own soul, how about looking at it again through scripture.
It is a wide known fact that the Pharoah or Pharoah's considered themselves gods. And it is also known that king Herod was a ruthless king. Why associate these two well known men to birthdays? Can one idolize himself? What have you learned? Or do you think these verses were written in to fill biblical space?

And as for Christmas...

[Krusader]

I don't mean to intercede here Sparko, but, have you given in to the thought and why the bible associates the Pharoah and King Herod to birthdays? How about because these two men were not men of God. Instead of looking at it from your tradtional view or for what pleases your own soul, how about looking at it again through scripture.
It is a wide known fact that the Pharoah or Pharoah's considered themselves gods. And it is also known that king Herod was a ruthless king. Why associate these two well known men to birthdays? Can one idolize himself? What have you learned? Or do you think these verses were written in to fill biblical space?

And as for Christmas...

Why did the angels, the Shepherds and the Magi celebrate Christ's birthday?

[NonTrinitarian]

Why did the angels, the Shepherds and the Magi celebrate Christ's birthday?

They didn't. They celebrated his birth. Or am I missing the scripture that says the angels and shepherds and Magi came back every year and celebrated his birth again?

Do you not see the difference between celebrating the birth of a child and celebrating his birthday? The Jews and early Christians certainly saw a difference.

[Sparko]

It's childish arguments like this that make me feel I waste my time here.

well, buh-bye then! don't let the door hit you on your butt on the way out.


But what else can I expect when all you appeal to are emotion and argument by silence. The Bible is not silent on pagans celebrating birthdays. It is silent on Christians celebrating them. The historical data is not silent on the christians NOT celebrating birthdays, it is silent on them celebrating them. So which one of us is really using argument by silence? You're whole argument is purely emotional. "I like birthdays. What's wrong with birthdays? What about the kids. Wa Wa Wa."

LOL. You are the one arguing from silence NT. The bible never says don't celebrate birthdays. And just because pagans do something does not mean christians can't do the same thing. Pagans have feasts, so why do you have them if you feel that way? Pagans celebrate wedding anniversaries, so doesn't that mean you should not?

Your arguments are so shallow and hypocritical as to be absurd.

And you're right. I am proud to use the 'guilt by association' stance. You unwittingly just admitted I am associated with the early Christians. Something I'm proud of. And I can assure you if all the historical records said "early christians did not use the internet, wear polyester or eat pork", I would not use the internet, wear polyester or eat pork. (BTW, the christians did eat pork)

Only gentile Christians ate pork. The APOSTLES were jewish and did not. And the internet did not exist back then so you DO know they didn't use it. So you better get off of it real quick. And the old testament has rules against mixing different fibers (like polyester/cotton blends) so we do know that was against the jewish law and the apostles would never have worn polyester blends.

by the way I can use your exact arguments about Birthdays to show why you shouldn't celebrate wedding anniversaries.


You: The celebrated the birth of a child but there are no indications that anyone celebrated the anniversary of births.

Me: They celebrated weddings (Jesus was at a wedding) but there are no indications or records of any Christians celebrating any wedding anniversaries.

You: Birthdays are filled with pagan practices.

Me: Wedding anniversaries are filled with pagan practices. Ever wonder where the various wedding anniversary gifts came from (wood, paper, gold, etc?) ever wonder what jewelry represents? what about gift giving? they are all pagan practices. Not to mention you are idolizing your wife and worshipping her.

Anything you can say about birthdays, I can counter about wedding anniversaries.

And the weddings themselves, as gabbailey pointed out are filled with pagan rituals and practices. Do you think the early christians used wedding rings, wore white dresses, had wedding cake, wedding receptions, showers and gift parties? I don't think so.

I don't mean to intercede here Sparko, but, have you given in to the thought and why the bible associates the Pharoah and King Herod to birthdays? How about because these two men were not men of God. Instead of looking at it from your tradtional view or for what pleases your own soul, how about looking at it again through scripture.
It is a wide known fact that the Pharoah or Pharoah's considered themselves gods. And it is also known that king Herod was a ruthless king. Why associate these two well known men to birthdays? Can one idolize himself? What have you learned? Or do you think these verses were written in to fill biblical space?

And as for Christmas...

Topherlee just because they mention that they mention that Pharoah and Herod celebrated a birthday does not mean that they were "associating" birthdays with paganism. It is just a simple observation of what they were doing when they did some other evil deeds. It mentioned that Herod was feasting too and had dancers. does that make feasts and dancing pagan and forbidden to Christians? I bet they also had wedding anniversaries. Any excuse for a pagan party, right? So why do JW's celebrate wedding anniversaries? they have more pagan practices than birthdays associated with them. Why do you wear a wedding ring (if you are married)? Wedding rings are pagan.

You guys need to be consistant. Either ban all pagan celebrations or stop beign legalistic on only certain ones.

The real reason why JW's are allowed to celebrate wedding anniversaries is that if they tried to ban them, the backlash would be too great. If the Watchtower thought they could get away with it, they would ban them too. They are all about alienating their members from normal society and families. They want you isolated. All cults do.

[Sparko]

They didn't. They celebrated his birth. Or am I missing the scripture that says the angels and shepherds and Magi came back every year and celebrated his birth again?

Do you not see the difference between celebrating the birth of a child and celebrating his birthday? The Jews and early Christians certainly saw a difference.

Show me where they celebrated wedding anniversaries then.

[John from Ebla]

A feast is a feast and a Pagan is a Pagan.

If a Pagan hold a feast, the feast is Pagan (Herod)
If a non pagan holds a feast the feast is not a Pagan feast(Job)

But for the unlean and unpure in heart all things are unclean and unpure. (Has anyone read this in scriptures)

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Gabby]

The bible should be your main source - period. But what is so great about the bible is that it coincides with history. The bible can be used in every day life and it can also be used as a history book. The stories in the bible are historical - in that they actually took place.
To study the history outside the bible is pertinent as well in my opinion when it pertains to the bible. You can see how man has influenced many and their perception or thoughts on the bible by means of interpratation.
I don't think of NonTrinitarian as an angry person, he's just dealing with blocked minds.

To study history outside the bible is pertinent I agree. History books however are not inspired and depending on the authors agenda can be skewed, especially when it comes to doctrine. So when it's doctrine that we're discussing the bible is the final authority. Therefore when the bible says

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival (celebration, ie birthday) or a new moon or a Sabbath day-" ( Col 2:16 )

I will let that be my authority over any encyclopedia written by man.

Anyways, I didn't say he was an angry person, I just said he sounds angry, and he admits as much. :shrug:'

[Gabby]

A feast is a feast and a Pagan is a Pagan.

If a Pagan hold a feast, the feast is Pagan (Herod)
If a non pagan holds a feast the feast is not a Pagan feast(Job)

But for the unlean and unpure in heart all things are unclean and unpure. (Has anyone read this in scriptures)

Kind regards
John From Ebla


"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

Rom 14:5,6

[Gabby]

So did Jesus when he spoke to those who were too proud to see the truth.

At least I haven't called anyone "offspring of vipers":teeth:

Gee, thanks.

I rely on the Bible too. The Bible only mentions birthdays being celebrated by pagans (Pharoah and Herod). It never gives us the birthdate of anyone, including Jesus, though we do know the date of his death.

Actually we may not know the exact date but the bible is fairly specific as to when Jesus was born. Luke chapter 2 goes into alot of detail as to when Jesus was born. In Matt. it says that Herod "ascertained from them (magi) the time the star appeared.". The magi obviously knew the date of Jesus' birth.


Thus far the ONLY arguments I've heard are 1.) emotional arguments for how wonderful BD's are and how my poor child (who has too many toys as it is) doesn't get to enjoy it and 2.) Other stuff is pagan so I'm a hypocrite.

Point out where I've said these things, or do you treat everyone the same no matter how they treat you?

In regards to item 1, my daughter has an inground swimming pool she can dive into. Most kids don't. So everyone here needs to quit mistreating their children and go by a pool. Think of all the pool parties their poor children are missing that my daughter gets. She may miss one party a year but their kids are missing a whole summers worth of pool parties at our house. Does that sound like a reasonable argument for making you go out and by a pool? Of course not! It's ridiculous. That's about how powerful their argument is to me in regards to my daughter's birthday. My princess anything but mistreated and if missing a BD party is mistreating her then how much more so for all the pool parties their kids miss.

see above :ahem:

Item 2 is just a side step. For the sake of argument I granted that anniverseries are bad. So what? So I go to hell with them. You see, that's not an argument. Whether an anniversary is also pagan or if I also celebrate them doesn't some how make birthdays correct. It's poor logic and in fact is no argument at all.

It is just taking the reasoning to a logical conclusion. If such and such is pagan because of A and B (pagans using said items or superstitions) being involved, then anything involving A and B becomes pagan. Anything that has A and B involved is also pagan. Anniversaries and wedding ect. have a multitude of pagan rituals and superstitions that are now common place within them. Look at your wedding band and the finger that it's on. pagan and superstition. So it may not be an arguement but it is the logical conclusion of your arguement.


It's like my illustration above with smoking and eating red meat. It's nonsense to argue it's ok for you to smoke if I eat red meat and die of a heart attack. How does that make you dying of lung cancer ok?

Apples and Oranges. We're talking about pagan practices. That IS the common denominator in all of this. We're not talking about pagan practises and say drinking alcohol, which is what your illustrating with your red meat and smoking.

And you cannot ignore historical data. Especially when it is in harmony with the Bible. The historical records show Christians didn't celebrate birthdays. The Bible doesn't refute that and even seems to support by not mentioning anyones birthdate.

It seems to support. But then I say you cannot ignore scripture.

"Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a FESTIVAL or a new moon or a Sabbath day-"

Also the magi did not visit the baby Jesus on the day of his birth but afterwards. They came, what, 2 - 3 years later to honour the birth of the Saviour! They came and celebrated his birth, bringing with them gifts, when he was older.

And like I quoted in the above post "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

I regard the days that my children were born a day to rejoice and thank God for the miracle and gift that he has so gracously given us. I don't worship the day, it is a day of remembrance, a day to recognise the gift we have been given by God.

"Behold, children are a gift of the Lord; The fruit of the womb is a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior, So are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them;"


The Bible and those encyclopedias are not in conflict with each other. They're in agreement. And nothing except an appeal to emotion has been offered to refute it.

The Bible and the encyclopedias are not in conflict because one says their wrong and the other says nothing about them being wrong.

Show me my arguement from emotion!


chris

[NonTrinitarian]

Well, there's too many ridiculous arguments and too many posters to keep this up. I cannot answer each one of you, especially when you all repeat the same basic arguments.

Thus far NONE of you have addressed the fact that Christians in the first three centuries didn't celebrate birthdays. No one wants to ask why? No one wants to tell me when it all of a sudden became good. Your arguments continue to be the same. The bible doesn't specifically mention not celebrating birthdays. It doesn't mention abortions, smoking or drugs either but I'm sure most don't agree those things are acceptable. You try to deflect the argument by reverting to other celebrations but as I PERFECTLY illustrated despite what Gabbaily thinks, that's like arguing that it's ok for you to smoke because I eat red meat. How my killing myself with a heart attack makes it ok for you to kill yourself with lung cancer is beyond me. And I already addressed your scriptures about no man judging you in an earlier post. Which no one addressed. You just ignore it and then a few pages later conveinently bring it back up again.

Then some of you are just grossly ignorant of God's word. Like the guy who argued about old testament prohibition of mixing different fibers. Or eating pork. A basic knowledge of the Bible and the fact that the Mosaic law was abolished when Jesus died would quelch those arguments at the beginning. But I don't have time to teach you basic Bible knowledge. I save that for the humble ones. And despie what Gabbailey says, her whole argument IS based on emotion. All of yours are. What other reason would you want to argue for birthdays? It's not a command to celebrate them. It's not part of your worship. It's all emotion. Which blinds you to the main fact.

Jesus, his family and none of his Jewish friends, nor any of his Christian followers for several hundred years, celebrated birthdays.

That fact cannot be disputed by any half-way intelligent person.

Now you all can come back, call me a coward for ending the discussion, a brain-washed hypocrite who abuses my child one day out of the year and basically have a good ole pagan pow wow. I'm frustrated and I have to believe there are reasonable, intelligent people on this site. Apparently they don't hang around in the JW section though. I'll refrain from calling you what Jesus would call you.

[Gabby]

Well, there's too many ridiculous arguments and too many posters to keep this up. I cannot answer each one of you, especially when you all repeat the same basic arguments.

Thus far NONE of you have addressed the fact that Christians in the first three centuries didn't celebrate birthdays. No one wants to ask why?

Answer -> They don't mention birthdays because it isn't a salvational issue. It isn't a big deal. But there IS scripture that mentions feasts in general, as a whole. Why don't you address the scripture that has been posted several times? Col 2:16 You do the same thing you accuse others of doing.


No one wants to tell me when it all of a sudden became good. Your arguments continue to be the same.

We've been saying is that your premise of birthdays being bad to start with isn't right. Can you prove that birthdays are a sin or just that some early Christians didn't practise it?

The bible doesn't specifically mention not celebrating birthdays. It doesn't mention abortions, smoking or drugs either but I'm sure most don't agree those things are acceptable.

If you take this to it's logical conclusion the bible doesn't mention wedding rings, celebrations of anniversaries, meeting in church building instead of homes, celebrating Thanksgiving, and it doesn't mention people using outside sources, such as history books or encyclopedias to figure out what God would have us do.

You try to deflect the argument by reverting to other celebrations but as I PERFECTLY illustrated despite what Gabbaily thinks, that's like arguing that it's ok for you to smoke because I eat red meat. How my killing myself with a heart attack makes it ok for you to kill yourself with lung cancer is beyond me. And I already addressed your scriptures about no man judging you in an earlier post. Which no one addressed. You just ignore it and then a few pages later conveinently bring it back up again.

Well maybe I missed it, as I am coming in late. Please refer to the post number where you dealt with Col 2:16 and I will read it.

Then some of you are just grossly ignorant of God's word. Like the guy who argued about old testament prohibition of mixing different fibers. Or eating pork. A basic knowledge of the Bible and the fact that the Mosaic law was abolished when Jesus died would quelch those arguments at the beginning. But I don't have time to teach you basic Bible knowledge. I save that for the humble ones. And despie what Gabbailey says, her whole argument IS based on emotion. All of yours are. What other reason would you want to argue for birthdays? It's not a command to celebrate them. It's not part of your worship. It's all emotion. Which blinds you to the main fact.

No it's based on Col 2:16 and Rom 14:5,6 and that the premise that it's not mentioned in the bible or that because the early christians didn't do it, is wrong to begin with. Just logic, no emtion.


Ya know this IS a discussion board. People don't just come here to hear

Jesus, his family and none of his Jewish friends, nor any of his Christian followers for several hundred years, celebrated birthdays.

Jesus DID keep the LAW perfectly and so did the 12, which means he didn't eat pork, he didn't wear blended fabrics, he kept the Sabbath, he kept all the biblical feasts, as I'm sure all the 12 did.

That fact cannot be disputed by any half-way intelligent person.

Now you all can come back, call me a coward for ending the discussion, a brain-washed hypocrite who abuses my child one day out of the year and basically have a good ole pagan pow wow. I'm frustrated and I have to believe there are reasonable, intelligent people on this site. Apparently they don't hang around in the JW section though. I'll refrain from calling you what Jesus would call you.

Talk about emtion! :ahem: :no:

[Sparko]

Not to mention that we DO have evidence that the hebrews and christians DID keep track of birthdays, otherwise how would they know how old each person was when they begot their child and when they died? The hebrews were very meticulous about tracking such things. Whether they celebrated or not is not mentioned, but even if not celebrated there is nothign inherently wrong with celebrating them. As NonTrin already mentioned he gives gifts to his child and wife, he has feasts and celebrations, he practices pagan religious rituals in the form of wearing a wedding band so it seems there is no reason not to celebrate a feast and give gifts on the day of somones birth if you can do it any other day of the year.

I guess he thinks its OK to have a celebratory feast and give presents to his child on any day other than on her birthday or Christmas? How silly is that?

The legalism of the Watchtower boggles the mind.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Thus far NONE of you have addressed the fact that Christians in the first three centuries didn't celebrate birthdays. No one wants to ask why? No one wants to tell me when it all of a sudden became good. Your arguments continue to be the same. The bible doesn't specifically mention not celebrating birthdays. It doesn't mention abortions, smoking or drugs either but I'm sure most don't agree those things are acceptable. You try to deflect the argument by reverting to other celebrations but as I PERFECTLY illustrated despite what Gabbaily thinks, that's like arguing that it's ok for you to smoke because I eat red meat. How my killing myself with a heart attack makes it ok for you to kill yourself with lung cancer is beyond me. And I already addressed your scriptures about no man judging you in an earlier post. Which no one addressed. You just ignore it and then a few pages later conveinently bring it back up again.

Then some of you are just grossly ignorant of God's word. Like the guy who argued about old testament prohibition of mixing different fibers. Or eating pork. A basic knowledge of the Bible and the fact that the Mosaic law was abolished when Jesus died would quelch those arguments at the beginning. But I don't have time to teach you basic Bible knowledge. I save that for the humble ones. And despie what Gabbailey says, her whole argument IS based on emotion. All of yours are. What other reason would you want to argue for birthdays? It's not a command to celebrate them. It's not part of your worship. It's all emotion. Which blinds you to the main fact.

I celebrate birthdays because I believe in a God who can perform a miracle. I look at where I am and remember that X number of years earlier, I was not, and now I am. That is a miracle and every year, I get a reminder that God has brought me so far and kept me alive to this day and my friends and family agree essentially and want to celebrate that God brought me into existence.

Now mind you, I will say I get really irritated with people that say they want to sit us down and teach us basic Bible knowledge, but we're not humble enough. I will state that many of us do have strong "basic Bible knowledge." My Bible knowledge is enough to show that there is no basis for saying all birthdays are evil because evil people happened to celebrate them.

In determining if an action is evil we need to look at the action itself, the reason behind the action, and the intended result. Let's look at these.

The action itself: Celebrating the fact that God has in his providence and grace allowed someone to live X number of years. Is there a problem with that?

The reason behind it: For me, it's just that. God has granted life and I get a reminded on my birthday of how many years have gone by and how God has worked through those years.

The intended result: That I will appreciate God's goodness in my life more and more.

Sigh. Just looking at those three in that way, it's clear that there can be nothing but evil there......

Jesus, his family and none of his Jewish friends, nor any of his Christian followers for several hundred years, celebrated birthdays.

I'm sorry. Is there a point to this?

That fact cannot be disputed by any half-way intelligent person.

Here's some facts that cannot be disputed by any half-way intelligent person either.

Jesus and his followers never drove cars, they never used the internet, they never published magazines....

Now you all can come back, call me a coward for ending the discussion, a brain-washed hypocrite who abuses my child one day out of the year and basically have a good ole pagan pow wow. I'm frustrated and I have to believe there are reasonable, intelligent people on this site. Apparently they don't hang around in the JW section though. I'll refrain from calling you what Jesus would call you.

Thanks for showing us your humility. I hope I can reach that level someday as well.

[Topherlee]

I celebrate birthdays because I believe in a God who can perform a miracle. I look at where I am and remember that X number of years earlier, I was not, and now I am. That is a miracle and every year, I get a reminder that God has brought me so far and kept me alive to this day and my friends and family agree essentially and want to celebrate that God brought me into existence.

Now mind you, I will say I get really irritated with people that say they want to sit us down and teach us basic Bible knowledge, but we're not humble enough. I will state that many of us do have strong "basic Bible knowledge." My Bible knowledge is enough to show that there is no basis for saying all birthdays are evil because evil people happened to celebrate them.

In determining if an action is evil we need to look at the action itself, the reason behind the action, and the intended result. Let's look at these.

The action itself: Celebrating the fact that God has in his providence and grace allowed someone to live X number of years. Is there a problem with that?

The reason behind it: For me, it's just that. God has granted life and I get a reminded on my birthday of how many years have gone by and how God has worked through those years.

The intended result: That I will appreciate God's goodness in my life more and more.

Sigh. Just looking at those three in that way, it's clear that there can be nothing but evil there......

This is the best response I have heard to date regarding birthdays. But realistically, you are a few of many who view birthdays this way. I guess the views on the bible differ in regards to b-days. You see it as heathen celebrating b-days have nothing to do with how you celebrate them. I guess JW's see b-days on how the bible portrays them as part of a heathen celebration - as if there is a lesson to be learned.

[Shadow Phoenix]

This is the best response I have heard to date regarding birthdays. But realistically, you are a few of many who view birthdays this way. I guess the views on the bible differ in regards to b-days. You see it as heathen celebrating b-days have nothing to do with how you celebrate them. I guess JW's see b-days on how the bible portrays them as part of a heathen celebration - as if there is a lesson to be learned.

Topher. Thank you for the compliment and let me add this in. It doesn't matter a bit to me that heathens celebrated birthdays. I want to know why they did it and what was involved. For instance, in Daniel 5, the heathen kings are having a feast. Does God condemn the act of having a feast? No. He condemns the reason for having that feast.

[NonTrinitarian]

Topher. Thank you for the compliment and let me add this in. It doesn't matter a bit to me that heathens celebrated birthdays. I want to know why they did it and what was involved. For instance, in Daniel 5, the heathen kings are having a feast. Does God condemn the act of having a feast? No. He condemns the reason for having that feast.

I think this is our point. We are not saying the Bible condemns feasts. It is the reason for having the feast that is the issue. Another question you need to ask is why the Jews and earlier Christians, including Jesus, did not celebrate their birthday every year. Start with that question and then research the birthday celebration with all its customs and ask yourself why the Christians felt it was wrong to do these things and when did it all of a sudden become acceptable for a Christian to do it. Thus far no one has been willing to tackle that question. They just keep jumping back to the wedding and anniversary argument. Which doesn't answer why Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday every year. I said I was done with this thread but I haven't talked with you yet so I thought I'd pipe back in to get your thoughts on this.

[Topherlee]

Topher. Thank you for the compliment and let me add this in. It doesn't matter a bit to me that heathens celebrated birthdays. I want to know why they did it and what was involved. For instance, in Daniel 5, the heathen kings are having a feast. Does God condemn the act of having a feast? No. He condemns the reason for having that feast.

Personally, the information I have gathered on this and I should mention is a conjunction of the bible and historical data is that the Pharoah or Pharoah's and King Herod as well as other high ranking officials at that time, per example, the Caesars of Rome, considered themselves gods or god-men. Their b-says to say was a mandatory festival in which these rulers would be given gold and silver and things of man that portray them as gods and rulers.

For example, in the book of Matthew, the astrologers presented Jesus at his birth, who was to be King of kings as written per prophecy, they presented him with;
2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
These are things you offer men of the world, not to the sons of God. In the book of Luke you see the shepherds who were invited by God. What did these people of GOd bring?
2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
They praised God for the Messiah as written per prophecy.

To give you a background on astrology - astrology was a condemned practice by God as well as scorcery and witchcraft. The astrologers were not, to say, men of God - they practiced astrology and they attributed the stars to the happenings of their daily lives.

Again, personally, I can only conclude that b-days are of pagan origin. I am pretty sure you do not consider yourself a god and this is not how you view b-days. But I believe the bible presents them as examples. I cannot speak for JW's, but I see how they do not want to be deemed "guilty by association". And yeah, you can say as Sparko announces, why do they celebrate weddings and anniversaries? Are these not of pagan origin? Well, JW's are sure to make their promises of union in the eyes of God - and not only to eachother, but to GOd they make this vow - this I know. I don't think you can compare a wedding to a b-day.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I think this is our point. We are not saying the Bible condemns feasts. It is the reason for having the feast that is the issue. Another question you need to ask is why the Jews and earlier Christians, including Jesus, did not celebrate their birthday every year. Start with that question and then research the birthday celebration with all its customs and ask yourself why the Christians felt it was wrong to do these things and when did it all of a sudden become acceptable for a Christian to do it. Thus far no one has been willing to tackle that question. They just keep jumping back to the wedding and anniversary argument. Which doesn't answer why Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday every year. I said I was done with this thread but I haven't talked with you yet so I thought I'd pipe back in to get your thoughts on this.

Why should it really concern me? If all of them back then were pagan celebrations, I really don't care. Here's why. They're not today! All it is today is getting together and celebrating our existence.

Why didn't Jesus celebrate it? Don't know. Doesn't reallymatter to me either. I see no reason to believe that God is fuming over a birthday party in Heaven. In fact, in thinking about my last birthday, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT the gifts. It was the fellowship with my friends and family.

Personally, some customs have changed over the years. This is for the better. You need to look at Aquinas's arguments on morality. There are three questions that have to be raised with any event.

The act itself
The reason behind the act
The intent of the act.

Birthdays:

The act: Celebrating one's birth. Tell me, is it wrong to celebrate the fact that God brought you into existence or for your loved ones to celebrate that?

The reason behind it: Because even though we don't realize it, those of us who celebrate them do so because life is such a gift and a wonder that we want to celebrate the person's life and look forward to many more years.

The intent: To honor the individual and give thanks for their life. To bring them a smile and much joy as they say, "We are thankful that you have lived this long and hope you have many more years."

[Shadow Phoenix]

Personally, the information I have gathered on this and I should mention is a conjunction of the bible and historical data is that the Pharoah or Pharoah's and King Herod as well as other high ranking officials at that time, per example, the Caesars of Rome, considered themselves gods or god-men. Their b-says to say was a mandatory festival in which these rulers would be given gold and silver and things of man that portray them as gods and rulers.

Again, personally, I can only conclude that b-days are of pagan origin. I am pretty sure you do not consider yourself a god and this is not how you view b-days. But I believe the bible presents them as examples. I cannot speak for JW's, but I see how they do not want to be deemed "guilty by association". And yeah, you can say as Sparko announces, why do they celebrate weddings and anniversaries? Are these not of pagan origin? Well, JW's are sure to make their promises of union in the eyes of God - and not only to eachother, but to GOd they make this vow - this I know. I don't think you can compare a wedding to a b-day.

I brought this up here since it went more with the first paragraph. I urge you to check my prior post to Non-Trinitarian and see Aquinas's arguments. Did they do this? Quite likely. Do we today? No. Because some people used one's birth for stupid and cultic purposes in the past, I am in no way bound to do so.

For example, in the book of Matthew, the astrologers presented Jesus at his birth, who was to be King of kings as written per prophecy, they presented him with;
2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
These are things you offer men of the world, not to the sons of God. In the book of Luke you see the shepherds who were invited by God. What did these people of GOd bring?
2:20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.
They praised God for the Messiah as written per prophecy.

To give you a background on astrology - astrology was a condemned practice by God as well as scorcery and witchcraft. The astrologers were not, to say, men of God - they practiced astrology and they attributed the stars to the happenings of their daily lives.

And I'm sure you haven't bothered to check the sources I suggested you look at for a deeper look at these men. I'll be waiting for that.

[NonTrinitarian]

Why should it really concern me? If all of them back then were pagan celebrations, I really don't care. Here's why. They're not today! All it is today is getting together and celebrating our existence.

Why didn't Jesus celebrate it? Don't know. Doesn't reallymatter to me either. I see no reason to believe that God is fuming over a birthday party in Heaven. In fact, in thinking about my last birthday, the first thing that comes to mind is NOT the gifts. It was the fellowship with my friends and family.

Personally, some customs have changed over the years. This is for the better. You need to look at Aquinas's arguments on morality. There are three questions that have to be raised with any event.

The act itself
The reason behind the act
The intent of the act.

Birthdays:

The act: Celebrating one's birth. Tell me, is it wrong to celebrate the fact that God brought you into existence or for your loved ones to celebrate that?

The reason behind it: Because even though we don't realize it, those of us who celebrate them do so because life is such a gift and a wonder that we want to celebrate the person's life and look forward to many more years.

The intent: To honor the individual and give thanks for their life. To bring them a smile and much joy as they say, "We are thankful that you have lived this long and hope you have many more years."

I find it amazing that no one wants to address WHY Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday. Do you think he does now? If so, when did he start?

I know I'll get the same answer as before. Don't know, don't care. After all, why would God have anything against having a party? :ahem:

[Shadow Phoenix]

I find it amazing that no one wants to address WHY Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday. Do you think he does now? If so, when did he start?

I know I'll get the same answer as before. Don't know, don't care. After all, why would God have anything against having a party? :ahem:

Personally, we have NO record on what Jesus did on any of his birthdays. Perchance he gave a prayer of thanks to his father. We don't know. Again, saying that birthdays were pagan back then is actually irrelevant to birthdays today. Jesus did not come so we could celebrate birthdays so we wouldn't expect birthday reform as his mission. He came to set the captives free.

The good news is that he succeeded. Paganism was overthrown by Christianity. True, there are still pagans, but it is no longer the dominant worldview that it was back then.

Now I'm still going to stick to my answer from Aquinas.

[Gabby]

I find it amazing that no one wants to address WHY Jesus didn't celebrate his birthday. Do you think he does now? If so, when did he start?

I know I'll get the same answer as before. Don't know, don't care. After all, why would God have anything against having a party? :ahem:

You cannot know that Jesus did or did not recognise birth days. It is not said anywhere that he was for or against recognising birthdays. Period.

All you have given is circumstancial evidence from people who lived long after Jesus walked the earth.

[NonTrinitarian]

You cannot know that Jesus did or did not recognise birth days. It is not said anywhere that he was for or against recognising birthdays. Period.

All you have given is circumstancial evidence from people who lived long after Jesus walked the earth.

You cannot know that Jesus did or did not support abortions. It is not said anywhere that he was for or against abortions. Period.

All you have given is circumstancial evidence from people who lived long after Jesus walked the earth.

Keep your head in the sand.

[NonTrinitarian]

The good news is that he succeeded. Paganism was overthrown by Christianity. True, there are still pagans, but it is no longer the dominant worldview that it was back then.
The hundreds of millions of muslims, and billions of people in China, India Japan etc will be surprised to know that.

I think it's pretty obvious to anyone except those who, like Gabbaily, want to cover there ears and say "I'm not listening", the Jews and early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays and especially Christmas. Grab an encyclopedia. Anyone will do. Read the church fathers.

Instead of saying I don't care why, dig a little deeper.

Over and out.

[Gabby]

You cannot know that Jesus did or did not support abortions. It is not said anywhere that he was for or against abortions. Period.

All you have given is circumstancial evidence from people who lived long after Jesus walked the earth.

Keep your head in the sand.

I thought you weren't responding to me anymore? If your back for discussion great, but if your just gonna hit and run, I'm gonna ignore you for those who are willing to actually discuss.

By the way one of the Ten Commandsments is "Thou shalt not MURDER". Still applys today even to those not yet born. :tongue:

[NonTrinitarian]

I thought you weren't responding to me anymore? If your back for discussion great, but if your just gonna hit and run, I'm gonna ignore you for those who are willing to actually discuss.

By the way one of the Ten Commandsments is "Thou shalt not MURDER". Still applys today even to those not yet born. :tongue:

That would be an interesting discussion. Are we under the 10 commandments?

Where would that topic be posted?

[Gabby]

That would be an interesting discussion. Are we under the 10 commandments?

Where would that topic be posted?

Go for it. Try Christianity 101

[Shadow Phoenix]

The hundreds of millions of muslims, and billions of people in China, India Japan etc will be surprised to know that.

I think it's pretty obvious to anyone except those who, like Gabbaily, want to cover there ears and say "I'm not listening", the Jews and early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays and especially Christmas. Grab an encyclopedia. Anyone will do. Read the church fathers.

Instead of saying I don't care why, dig a little deeper.

Over and out.

If you define paganism as false religion, then no. There are several left.

If you define it as a polytheistic belief that was usually gnostic, then that view was squashed.

And really, I don't care, because we don't celebrate birthdays the way they did and why they did back then. I still stick with Aquinas, who you haven't answered. I'm in no way bound by past stupidity in how people observed birthdays.

[davebelk]

Non of us are perfect. As believers in Christ we know that we all sin and fall short of His glory. It is God who judges our hearts. If we celebrate anything with evil intentions, God will know. And, if instead we celebrate to give God glory, He will know that also. Thanks be to God that we are covered by the grace bestowed on us by Christ. We must choose to believe in Christ for our salvation and have faith that even though we do not always honor Him, we have been given eternal life.

To argue wether or not these festivals, celebrations, birthdays, wedding anniversaries, etc. are sinful in and of themselves is not the point. The point is, "what is the focus of the event?"

Jesus said "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt 5:30 NIV)

So, if your birthday or wedding anniversary party stands between you and your relationship with God, then don't celebrate it. In the same way, if your saturday morning golf game gets in between you and your relationship with God, or your commitments to your family, then stop playing.

I personally think that these and many other activities can serve as ways to build relationships with people and to share the love of Christ with your family members and friends. It is all about how you go about it, and the condition of your heart.

[Sparko]

Happy Birthday Jesus!!!

[apostoli]

Happy Birthday Jesus!!!Heh Sparko,

As you well know, you are a few months late. Still, better late than never. What did you get him for a present?

Perspective is a great thing. On TWEB I notice a lot of people going on about syncretisation of paganism in the RCC and Orthodox traditions. And yet the same people along with the RCC defend the two biggest pagan feast days there are. :huh:

To placate those with biblical sensitivities, at least move Christmas to a date closer to biblical reality or do as the orthodox and celebrate the epithany instead.

In Australia, we are a constitutional monarchy (but the Monarchy is just a figure head). I don't think there are two states that celebrate the Monarch's birthday on the same date (actually it is a different date each year - always falls on a Monday) . Like Christmas, except for a few royalists no one actually celebrates it, it is just a good excuse for a public holiday and a long weekend. Oh! And public firework displays!!!

Don't get me wrong. Xmas is fun. In fact, for a few years now we have it twice a year. It is so hot here in December, that the marketing gurus invented a thing they call "Christmas in July".

[Sparko]

Heh Sparko,

As you well know, you are a few months late. Still, better late than never. What did you get him for a present?



Its more about what he gave US, salvation. But I give him my love, worship and faith -- I give him ME. I think that's what he wants from me and the only thing of any worth that I have to give.

[apostoli]

Its more about what he gave US, salvation..The time for that is several months away. Jesus himself (paraphrased) said, the flesh itself means nothing!

But I give him my love, worship and faith -- I give him ME. I think that's what he wants from me and the only thing of any worth that I have to give.Have you?

In regards to JW's view on Christmas, Birthdays and some other aspects they are working from the high ground as the history of protestantism will attest. Especially in the the foundations of the USA.

In the posts on this thread I have not seen any semblance of Christian charity. Just pagan pomposity, clinging to the indefensible.

Criticize the JWs for dogmatical error, lead them to the truth but do so immitating Christ in his love for all children of faith. The only biblical criticism I can lay against the JW (in regard to this thread) is that they chain themselves to the letter of the law, using reason they might be lead to the spirit.

That might sound holier than thou, but it is a matter of perspective, A.Paul suggests that as followers of Christ we remain without criticism. From what I have read on this thread, the non JW respondents discount the scriptures preferring the traditions of man, which only encourages JW observance of the letter and not the spirit. An important distinction that we all need to think upon.

[Sparko]

The time for that is several months away. Jesus himself (paraphrased) said, the flesh itself means nothing!

Have you?

In regards to JW's view on Christmas, Birthdays and some other aspects they are working from the high ground as the history of protestantism will attest. Especially in the the foundations of the USA.

In the posts on this thread I have not seen any semblance of Christian charity. Just pagan pomposity, clinging to the indefensible.

Criticize the JWs for dogmatical error, lead them to the truth but do so immitating Christ in his love for all children of faith. The only biblical criticism I can lay against the JW (in regard to this thread) is that they chain themselves to the letter of the law, using reason they might be lead to the spirit.

That might sound holier than thou, but it is a matter of perspective, A.Paul suggests that as followers of Christ we remain without criticism. From what I have read on this thread, the non JW respondents discount the scriptures preferring the traditions of man, which only encourages JW observance of the letter and not the spirit. An important distinction that we all need to think upon.

...Speaking of "Pomposity" and "Holier than thou"...

[apostoli]

...Speaking of "Pomposity" and "Holier than thou"...
I did say it is something "we all need to think about".

Don't get defensive when someone points out a perceived failing. Work on it! You say you have given yourself to Christ. If so, to give yourself credibility, shouldn't you be seen as immitating his charity (Phil 2:3-5).

Read through this thread, combined the non-JW posts on this thread sound like a gaggle of Pharisees defending their traditions.

I'm not throwing stones at anyone. Just attempting to discourage the setting up of another Sanhedrim (see Acts 5:33-39) or Taliban.

[Sparko]

I did say it is something "we all need to think about".

Don't get defensive when someone points out a perceived failing. Work on it! You say you have given yourself to Christ. If so, to give yourself credibility, shouldn't you be seen as immitating his charity (Phil 2:3-5).

Read through this thread, combined the non-JW posts on this thread sound like a gaggle of Pharisees defending their traditions.

I'm not throwing stones at anyone. Just attempting to discourage the setting up of another Sanhedrim (see Acts 5:33-39) or Taliban.

Jesus dined with sinners and ate with tax collectors, but he had no patience for Pharisees and hypocrites. And that is what the JW's are. Legalistic, Pharisitical, Hypocrites. The religious leaders of the day should have known better and known that salvation was about faith and not obeying rules and regulations. It was about a relationship with God. Today the Jehovah's Witnesses are right back in the place of the Pharisees. They go around saying you have to follow specific rules and the Watchtower society or you won't be saved.

They are just like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned when he said:

Matthew 23:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

And again, they are like the legalistic hypocrites that Paul spoke of:

Colossians 2:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


And YOU, Apostoli, rather than allowing me to wish my Lord a Happy Birthday in this thread, decide to disrespect my faith and Lord Jesus by being a pompous jackass on Christmas. Nice going. Merry Christmas to you too.

[apostoli]

Jesus dined with sinners and ate with tax collectors, but he had no patience for Pharisees and hypocrites. And that is what the JW's are. Legalistic, Pharisitical, Hypocrites. The religious leaders of the day should have known better and known that salvation was about faith and not obeying rules and regulations. It was about a relationship with God. Today the Jehovah's Witnesses are right back in the place of the Pharisees. They go around saying you have to follow specific rules and the Watchtower society or you won't be saved.

They are just like the Pharisees that Jesus condemned when he said:

Matthew 23:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=23&verse=15&version=31&context=verse)
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

And again, they are like the legalistic hypocrites that Paul spoke of:

Colossians 2:
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.


And YOU, Apostoli, rather than allowing me to wish my Lord a Happy Birthday in this thread, decide to disrespect my faith and Lord Jesus by being a pompous jackass on Christmas. Nice going. Merry Christmas to you too.In the USA it is boxing day. Xmas was yesterday! In my part of the world Xmas was two days ago.

As for you wishing your Lord a happy birthday! Your posts on this thread weren't much of a present. Think about it. Jesus mostly reasoned with the Pharisees, it was only when they threatened to stone him he got firm with them. I'm only encouraging you to reason with the JWs rather than arguing from traditions based on what is the date of a historic pagan tradition. Biblical indications would place Jesus' birthday as months ago!

I apologise for disrespecting your traditions. And I apologise to the JWs reading this, on behalf of you and others, for disregarding the burden of the JW faith.

Regarding Pharisees: Remember the apostle Paul was a pharisee as was Nicodemus. Even pharisees can be saved if they are treated with charity.

The scriptures say that a man's life proves nothing, it is the way he lives it. Christ lived his life in charity. If you have truely given yourself to him. Immitation of him should be easy.

Peace to all of goodwill.

[Sparko]

Peace to all of goodwill.


Jesus said:
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—


Matthew 10:33-35

[apostoli]

Jesus said:
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—


Matthew 10:33-35The context of your cite is that emnity will arise against the disciples because they confess Christ (vs32-42) but particularly vs 36&37 "And a man's foes shall be [found in] his own household. He that [values his family above] me; is not worthy of me."

Now look back to to Matthew 10:13 "And if a house be worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you."

Note that in Jesus' view it is not his followers that provoke emnity but bring peace and if that peace is not reciprocated they leave in peace.

"the dayspring from on high have visited us to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." Luke 1:78-79.

Jesus gives us an excellent example of dealing with people who worship righteously but in error. The disciples less so...

"And upon this came [Jesus'] disciples and marveled that [Jesus] talked to the [Samaritan] woman" John 4:28; see vs 6-29.

[John from Ebla]

Jesus said:
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—


Matthew 10:33-35

Your right about this Sparko.

l have a friend that who given up on Rabbinical Judaism that was in his house (family) and he now follow Jesus, he gave up on his rightful inheritance from the family. His parents told him to curse Jesus- he refused and left. He may have lost his inheritance (future wealth) but he found peace and eternal salvation in Jesus. The house he left has bitterness and a sword within their house...

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Sparko]

Jesus came to save. There will be those who will find themselves divided from their friends and family over him. He is saying that his truth is more important than any earthly relationship. If it costs you your family and peace to follow him, then you still follow him and he will make things right later.

Jesus didn't come for us to be nice to false teachers and cultists. If you can be nice and have a polite conversation, then sure, you should, but we are never to soften the gospel or the truth of Christ to make the cultists like us or to make peace with them.

THAT is why we are arguing with them in this thread about their legalism. Legalism and a false view of who Christ is will condemn them to hell. I would rather know that I have given them the truth and they had a chance to hear it than worry about being "nice" to them and watch them wallow in hell knowing I did nothing to correct them.

[apostoli]

Jesus came to save. There will be those who will find themselves divided from their friends and family over him. He is saying that his truth is more important than any earthly relationship. If it costs you your family and peace to follow him, then you still follow him and he will make things right later.I know several persons who are ex-demoninational christian or ex-Jewish or ex-Orthodox who follow the burden of the JW faith who will tell you the exact same thing but based on their own personal experience. Have you personally (outside of TWEB) actually experienced persecution for your beliefs? Have you been brave enough, to preach to your unbelieving friends, workmates and even strangers - risking being shunned and alienated for your belief in Christ's salvation? (Because of anonymity preaching on TWEB doesn't count!) If more "christians" immitated the positive aspects of the JWs, Christianity wouldn't be in crisis in the modern world (growth of Oneness churches, Mormons, Eastern faiths and Terrorism).

Jesus didn't come for us to be nice to false teachers and cultists. If you can be nice and have a polite conversation, then sure, you shouldThere is an element of truth to what you say. However, Jesus did not directly provoke his accuses. There were those he was sharp with, pointing out their error, but see how even then his argument was reasoned and not directly provocative. Yeah! The fanatics, spat the dummy, got all upset and made counter claims but those that listened, those that heard what Jesus was really saying "many came to believe" even those who were pharisees. Remember, the Pharisees were "lay teachers" not of the temple class. And there were two main schools, one fanatical and one moderate.

As for false teachers. A.Paul (Galatians) seems to consider A.Peter as a hypocrite and those that A.James sent as teaching a different Gospel. Were A.Peter and A.James false teachers? or Did they have a different perspective on things?

but we are never to soften the gospel or the truth of Christ to make the cultists like us or to make peace with them.And yet the JWs preach the same Gospel as you regarding full faith in Christ as the Son of God, our Saviour. Theologically you and they differ only on Jesus status as being "truely God from God" and the individuality of the Holy Spirit. There is a big difference between scriptuality, theology, and dogmatics.

THAT is why we are arguing with them in this thread about their legalism.As A.Paul did with A.James. A.James solution is that the gentile be under the Noahic law. A.Paul says that those that live by the flesh die, but those who are no part of the world will live. Is that legalism?

Legalism and a false view of who Christ is will condemn them to hell.Legalism can be likened to a belief in eternal fiery punishment. This is a very philosophical/greek concept. A topic for another thread. But as the JW believe there is no such thing as "eternal punishment in hell" merely "eternal punishment in annihilation". Which can be demonstrated scriptually. And many churches teach. Luther advocated that we die body, soul and spirit and believed so did Jesus. But through the mercy and grace of God the Father we will be raised. The scriptures say judge not lest you be judged. Is that legalism. Is the statute Jesus gave us legalism: "love your fellow man as you would love yourself".

I would rather know that I have given them the truth and they had a chance to hear it than worry about being "nice" to themIn the context of this thread, you have failed to give them the truth. In regards to birthdays and christmas the JWs are working from centuries of firm Christian belief. To put things in perspective: In early America most of us would have been burnt at the stake for maintaining what was then perceived as ungodly practices eg: celebration of christmas.

and watch them wallow in hell knowing I did nothing to correct them.Did Jesus say the Law was abolished? Not according to the Gospels! Even A.Paul seems to suggest we are bound to at the least the Noahic laws. Jesus didn't criticise the law, but those that attended to the letter and not the spirit. Our freedom from the law is a gift, which we are encouraged to share with those bound to laws. We must be careful not to turn that gift into chains - another law!

There are many "mainstream christian" churches that do and have failed to follow in the footsteps of Christ...

Jonestown, Waco come to mind. Then...

A 100/150 years ago, in Missouri, a group of "christians" herded a town of Mormons into a barn and set it on fire. Murdering men, women, children and babies. Was this an immitation of Christ?

In the USA hordes of rednecks dressed in White robes and hoods, proclaiming Christ killed Catholic, Jews and Negros. Was this an immitation of Christ?

At the Nuremburg trials, the German defended that may of the atrocities they were accused of were every day practice in Christian America eg: steralisation of Spastics etc; death penalty for inter-marriage etc. Was this an immitation of Christ?

Jefferson said to be the author of the "Declaration of Independence" wrote "All men are created equal". He wasn't a "christian" by your definition and it was your "christians" that were against his ideas of freedom for the slaves. Which of there immitated Christ?

Perspective my friend: "extreme right christianity", modern and ancient, has much to answer for causing murder and atrocities in the world. Charity and peace were Jesus' message not fanaticism and terrorism (mental or physical). We have a choice, to immitate Christ or Ciaphas.

[Sparko]

I know several persons who are ex-demoninational christian or ex-Jewish or ex-Orthodox who follow the burden of the JW faith who will tell you the exact same thing but based on their own personal experience. Have you personally (outside of TWEB) actually experienced persecution for your beliefs? Have you been brave enough, to preach to your unbelieving friends, workmates and even strangers - risking being shunned and alienated for your belief in Christ's salvation? (Because of anonymity preaching on TWEB doesn't count!) If more "christians" immitated the positive aspects of the JWs, Christianity wouldn't be in crisis in the modern world (growth of Oneness churches, Mormons, Eastern faiths and Terrorism).


Yeah I am pretty much just as vocal in real life as I am on TWEB.




As for false teachers. A.Paul (Galatians) seems to consider A.Peter as a hypocrite and those that A.James sent as teaching a different Gospel. Were A.Peter and A.James false teachers? or Did they have a different perspective on things?

If you are referring to the circumcision incident and eating with gentiles, then as you are aware, Paul took Peter to task on it and argued before the church and WON. He didn't just say "oh well, different strokes for different folks" and go on in the name of 'peace'. He did not allow legalism to stand and Peter was man enough to realize he was wrong. they did not teach a different gospel, Peter just got a little legalistic and needed correcting from a brother.



And yet the JWs preach the same Gospel as you regarding full faith in Christ as the Son of God, our Saviour. Theologically you and they differ only on Jesus status as being "truely God from God" and the individuality of the Holy Spirit. There is a big difference between scriptuality, theology, and dogmatics.

No. We do NOT teach the same Gospel nor the same Jesus, nor the same God. The JW's teach Jesus is a lesser being, an Angel. A creature. Faith in a creature will not save you.

As A.Paul did with A.James. A.James solution is that the gentile be under the Noahic law. A.Paul says that those that live by the flesh die, but those who are no part of the world will live. Is that legalism?

What are you talking about? James did not put the gentiles under the noahic law. He realized that the old Jewish law did not apply to Jews or Gentiles anymore. He allowed the Jewish to continue in their legalistic ways as long as they didn't do it to 'earn' salvation, but he made it clear that the gentiles did not even have to do any such thing. He was not imposing laws, but showing that we are not under the law anymore.

Legalism is a belief in eternal fiery punishment.

again... HUH?????? Legalism is believing you have to follow certain laws to earn salvation. Do this to go to heaven, don't do it and go to hell. Believing in hell is not legalism.

the rest of your post is pure red herring.

[apostoli]

Hi Sparko,

Yeah I am pretty much just as vocal in real life as I am on TWEB.But do you do it with love or opiniation? That is one of my criticisms with some JWs.

One of their elders once (a workmate I was friendly with) said to me concerning their new converts "it would be prudent to lock them up for a year or two until the fervour receded"

If you are referring to the circumcision incident and eating with gentiles, then as you are aware, Paul took Peter to task on it and argued before the church and WON.Won, is a matter of perspective. Another is that he fled further north away from the influence of Jerusalem and James. Seems there was a bit of conflict even in the early church A.John said he was prevented from returning to Ephesus; and (I think it was) A.Peter couldn't go somewhere because A.Paul was in the district (might be the other way around).

He didn't just say "oh well, different strokes for different folks" and go on in the name of 'peace'. He did not allow legalism to standA.Paul's emphasis was on "the spirit" and "faith"; the reason. This is where the mature JW is misunderstood. It would be easy for them to conform and celebrate birthdays etc, but it is meant to be a witness to all of their faith in Jesus that they willingly set themselves apart from participating in fleshly things. They'd have more credibility if there seemed more of a choice in their dogma but to some extent there is (was - I'm not up to date). For instance: if a JW has a non-believing spouse they aren't suppose to oppose them on issues like birthdays etc. Unless things have changed in the JWs: the issue was (at least a few years ago) to an extent one of conscience not dogma (though. I think if the household was all JW, and they put up a xmas tree, there would be a couple of elders turn up to counsel them. Might even be a disfellowshipping. But that was for the protection of the congregation, so it would not be seen as condoning participation in the flesh - a very Pauline sentiment).

and Peter was man enough to realize he was wrong. they did not teach a different gospel, Peter just got a little legalistic and needed correcting from a brother.James seems to have been the legalist. A.Peter buckled under preasure when Jame's boys came to town. Hence A.Paul's criticism.

No. We do NOT teach the same Gospel, nor the same JesusAre you saying you don't believe that Jesus had pre-existence, that he is the only Son of God through whom all things were made, who was incarnated, died for our sins and was resurrected and through whom we have eternal life. JWs preach this!

nor the same God.Personally, I believe Jesus is truely the Son of God, eternally begotten of God and truely God from God. But, pointedly, nowhere in scripture does it say we have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. In contrast A.Paul says that unless you believe God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead you will not be saved. That said, A.Paul requires us to believe that Jesus is truely our Owner, Master, Lord!

Scripturally we are told to accept he is the pre-existant Son of God, the Christ. To quote A.Paul "Jesus, is Lord to the glory of God the Father." The scriptures do indicate (as we discussed on another thread) that Jesus is our God, but Jesus himself has a God that is also our God (Eph 1:17).

The fault I see in the JW theology is that they bypass Jesus, putting emphasis on the Father and discounting the Son. Scripture has it that all things are from the Father but by the Son (1 Cor 8:6; Eph 4:6.

the JW's teach Jesus is a lesser being, an Angel. A creature.Hmm. The JW theology has its faults, but as a perspective: The early church acknowledged Jesus as the "angel of YHWH" but as Novaitian said in his essay concerning the trinity, how much more so that he should be called God from God as he was the very word of God.

Faith in a creature will not save you.Hmm. As a perspective: The Jews put their faith in Moses when they left Egypt. YHWH had made Moses, as God to Aaron. The JW theology may be flawed by our understanding but it does have a basis in scripture. Our job is to show the flaws in their argumentation, as based on scripture.

What are you talking about? James did not put the gentiles under the noahic law.Acts 15:20.

He realized that the old Jewish law did not apply to Jews or Gentiles anymore.A.Paul is said to preach faith alone; whereas A.James says we are justified by works which are led by faith. Both use Abraham as an example. From A.Paul, A.James followers adhered to observances of the law, including not eating with gentiles. Hence his complaint with Peter (Gal 2:11-13). As apostle to the gentiles A.Paul had a different opinion in respect of the gentiles (Gal 2:15-21). The issue with A.Paul was the law did not bring righteousness but faith in Christ.

The Noahic laws had always applied to Gentiles living in Israel, who did not want to become "full" Jews. James' decreed allowed the gentiles full participation in the Church. Nowhere does it say he removed the need for Jews to attend to the law. In fact Galatians implies the opposite.

again... HUH?????? Legalism is believing you have to follow certain laws to earn salvation. Do this to go to heaven, don't do it and go to hell.Mature JWs don't see what they do as earning salvation but as a witness, as an example of how the truth can set you free. I have neighbours that go into extreme debt at Xmas, birthdays etc trying to keep up with the Jones. I've had to phone the Police to intervene in domestic voilence on Xmas day. In my city the suicide rate goes up at Xmas. Each year the local Baptist churches hold christmas lunches for the lonely. Their sizes are getting bigger year by year. Christmas has two faces!

Believing in hell is not legalism.Legalism is believing in hell, when it is used as a threat! JWs don't believe in eternal punishment. Their bribe is eternal life, not eternal punishment.

the rest of your post is pure red herring.But it does demonstrate what happens when "christian" zealots forget the law of Christ - to love!

[Sparko]

Are you saying you don't believe that Jesus had pre-existence, that he is the only Son of God through whom all things were made, who was incarnated, died for our sins and was resurrected and through whom we have eternal life. JWs preach this!

Typical JW, to use orthodox terms and assign them differeing meaning. By "pre-existant" they merely mean he was created first before anything else was. Jesus was not created at all. He was always existant. He IS God. The JW Jesus is just the arch-angel Michael. A created being. They are NOT the same Jesus.

Personally, I believe Jesus is truely the Son of God, eternally begotten of God and truely God from God. But, pointedly, nowhere in scripture does it say we have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. In contrast A.Paul says that unless you believe God (the Father) raised Jesus from the dead you will not be saved. That said, A.Paul requires us to believe that Jesus is truely our Owner, Master, Lord!

I don't think a perfectly formed doctrine of the Trinity is necessary for salvation. Many Christians probably never really think about it and remain pretty ignorant on the topic. But I do think that to actively fight against the doctrine as the JW's do and claim that Jesus is merely an angel and a created being is to make Jesus a lesser being and doing it on purpose and that is heretical. The reason I think that Jesus is God is important to salvation is that only the being we sin against can take our place. He can't put our sins on a third party and be fair. And in order to pay for our sins he had to be one of us too. The whole kinsmen-redeemer thing from the OT which is too much to go into in this thread. So I beleive Jesus had to be God and had to be Man (fully both) in order to atone for our sins.


The fault I see in the JW theology is that they bypass Jesus, putting emphasis on the Father and discounting the Son. Scripture has it that all things are from the Father but by the Son (1 Cor 8:6; Eph 4:6.

I agree. they relegate Jesus to a side role.