The "Resurrection" of Jesus Christ--Was it "Physical"? [Archive]

Mickey

January 17th 2005, 09:51 PM

On a preterist web-site (preteristarchive.com) we read that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was not physical.David Friedman says:

"As the appearance of Jesus to Paul was not physical, the appearances mentioned prior to his were also not physical."(Emphasis mine).

He also says:

"So what Paul is trying to show is that one cannot believe that Christ is risen, yet deny the general resurrection, as this is a contradiction of terms. Verses 12-16 supports the non-physical interpretation of the resurrection, which claims that the resurrection of Jesus was a time when His followers rose from their despondence to come to the realization that Christ was eternal in being, and that He was still present with them."(Emphasis mine).

Friedman also says:

"It is often claimed that 1 Corinthians 15:4 confirms that Paul was familiar with the empty tomb tradition. However, this assumes that Paul was familiar with the empty tomb stories in the gospels. The words in 1 Corinthians 15:4 are too vague to confirm or refute the belief that Paul knew of the empty tomb. Personally I believe that the empty tomb story is allegorical, and that Paul did not refer to it here, giving a more literal account of what happened (I think that it’s possible that he had heard of the tradition, though I don’t believe he took it literally if he had)."(Emphasis mine).

I will not give the site address where this is quoted on the preteristarchive.com site,but the following link is for the article itself.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/friedman1.html

This is what happens when one thinks that they have a license to spiritulize away any verses that do not fit his ideas.I would like to hear if there are preterists on this forum who deny the bodily,physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Christ,

Mickey

Sheepdog

January 17th 2005, 11:18 PM

This thread has been moved to Unorthodox Theology, because that is a more appropriate place to discuss topics like this.

that said...

To my knowledge, none of the orthodox preterists on this site deny the physical bodily ressurection of Christ. in fact, if they did assent to that, they would no longer be orthodox.

you have to understand, the people on preteristarchive.com are not "partial" preterists: they are pantelists. you would do well to be careful not to confuse the two.

Xavier

January 17th 2005, 11:22 PM

This is what happens when one thinks that they have a license to spiritulize away any verses that do not fit his ideas.I would like to hear if there are preterists on this forum who deny the bodily,physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Christ,

Mickey

Hello Mickey,

The views aspoused by the PreteristArchive are those of a heretic form of perterism that see ALL scripture as fulfilled.

It is obvious that ANYONE who hold the Resurrection of the Body (whether our future resurrection or Christ's) as simply spiritual is entirely heretical. Paul has very strong language for those who taught that the Resurrection had already past.

More information can be found on Dee Dee Warren's PreteristList, espeically note this article:
http://www.tektonics.org/hythere.html

Disucssion of this heretical form of Preterism is restricted to the Unorthodox Theology section, and that is why your thread was moved here. You will note that ANYONE who discusses in the Eschatology Forum MUST hold to a orthodox view of the resurrection.

Yours,
Xavier

Makarios

January 17th 2005, 11:23 PM

I would like to hear if there are preterists on this forum who deny the bodily,physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

NT Wright, in his "The Resurrection of the Son of God" makes the case that "resurrection" in antiquity always referred to a physical rising from the grave. I am about 1/4 of the way through the book and so far his case is compelling

The allegorical interpretation did not come about until far after the gospels were penned.

I don't think you will find any preterists here who deny the physical resurrection- that is the province of full (heretical) preterism.

Mickey

January 18th 2005, 12:17 AM

The views aspoused by the PreteristArchive are those of a heretic form of perterism that see ALL scripture as fulfilled.Xavier,

The heretical form of preterism that you speak of use this idea to get around the words of Daniel in regard to the events surrounding the "great tribulation":

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"(Dan.12:1,2).

Since the heretical preterists understand the this resurrection is in regard to the same time period as the "great tribulation" they must somehow explain this resurrection.And they do this by saying that this resurrection,just like the Lord's resurrection,was not "physical".

How do the orthodox preterists explain away the words of Daniel?

In Christ,

Mickey

Sheepdog

January 18th 2005, 12:42 AM

i don't see how "explaining away" is necessary. i'm not convinced in the first place that Dan. 12:1 is describing the same time frame as the Olivet Discourse.

InChristAlways

January 18th 2005, 02:11 AM

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt"(Dan.12:1,2). Some may note that Daniel says MANY not ALL. Isn't this suppose to be a resurrection of EVERYONE? Who are the rest that aren't "wakened"? Sounds spiritual and symbolic to me. I will rest on this one.

Chapt 1 does not show Christ as a "flesh and blood man", but glorified, later He is shown on a cloud reaping the elect in chapt 14. I don't think He is going to "touch earth" again. Is this what we will look like when "resurrected"? I sure hope so, as I sure don't want this body again heh. God bless.

reve 1: 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;

reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

We know one half of Daniel's 70th week is fulfilled in revelation as the messiah is "cutt off" in chapt 12 and proof of this is shown later in chapt 5 as Christ portrayed as a slain Lamb. That leaves 42 months of tribulation and wrath(not 7 yrs of tribulation as some futurists falsely subscribe to). Jesus was born from the house of Judah(called a Harlot in the OT) as He is shown being the Lion of the tribe of Judah. I believe revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century and fulfills the Bible.

reve 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. reve 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain,

Abigail

January 18th 2005, 11:49 AM

Mickey

January 18th 2005, 12:53 PM

Sheepdog,

You say:
i don't see how "explaining away" is necessary. i'm not convinced in the first place that Dan. 12:1 is describing the same time frame as the Olivet Discourse.Are we suppose to believe that the following three verses are not speaking of the "great tribulation"?

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book"(Dan.12:1).

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"(Mt.24:21).

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be"(Mk.13:19).

If they are different events,then perhaps you can tell me when Daniel 12:1 occured.Or does it remain in the future?

In Christ,

Mickey

Mickey

January 18th 2005, 01:05 PM

Some may note that Daniel says MANY not ALL. Isn't this suppose to be a resurrection of EVERYONE? Who are the rest that aren't "wakened"? Sounds spiritual and symbolic to me. I will rest on this one.InChristAlways,

This resurrection concerns Daniel's people,the Jews (v.1),and is selective;not all,but "many",restricted to those written in the book.The last part of verse two can be translated in the following way:

"These [i.e. the ones who awake] to everlasting life;But those [i.e. those left in the grave who are yet to awake] to shame and everlasting contempt."

In Christ,

Mickey

Amazing Rando

January 18th 2005, 02:07 PM

NT Wright, in his "The Resurrection of the Son of God" makes the case that "resurrection" in antiquity always referred to a physical rising from the grave. I am about 1/4 of the way through the book and so far his case is compelling

I haven't gotten to that one yet, but if, to the ancients, resurrection was always a bodily event, what of the gnostics who came on to the scene only a hundred or so years after Christianity?

InChristAlways

January 18th 2005, 05:37 PM

We know He was to be the only One to not see corruption of His body.

Abigail

January 19th 2005, 10:16 AM

InChristAlways,

This resurrection concerns Daniel's people,the Jews (v.1),and is selective;not all,but "many",restricted to those written in the book.The last part of verse two can be translated in the following way:

"These [i.e. the ones who awake] to everlasting life;But those [i.e. those left in the grave who are yet to awake] to shame and everlasting contempt."

In Christ,

Mickey
I agree with this Mickey.

Makarios

January 19th 2005, 12:11 PM

I haven't gotten to that one yet, but if, to the ancients, resurrection was always a bodily event, what of the gnostics who came on to the scene only a hundred or so years after Christianity?

I'll let you know when I get there, but I'm pretty sure Wright would argue that the Gnostics represent a corruption of what the Old and New Testament authors were talking about.

Also, I should have said Wright believes resurrection was always understood as concrete, rather than bodily. He believes Ezekiel's vision of the valley of dry bones is metaphorical for the return of Israel from exile.

Abigail

January 19th 2005, 12:30 PM

We know He was to be the only One to not see corruption of His body.
No, but the context of this is that Christ was not subject to Adam's curse of having his body return to dust. It does not mean we will not be physically resurrected. If we are not to be physically resurrected then how is Christ victorious over physical death.

Magdalenbrother

January 21st 2005, 02:24 AM

Xavier

January 21st 2005, 02:26 AM

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians 15... And Remember that Gnosticism is a late development in Christianity.

Sheepdog

January 21st 2005, 03:00 AM

How could he have a physical body and ascend to heaven? You guys must be kidding!

because everyone knows that heaven exists above that sphere that the sun, moon and all the stars are glued to. :ahem:

we don't know what, exactly, the nature of heaven is (i.e where God resides). so, how can we say Jesus can't go there with a physical body?

Is it not obvious that Jesus materialized and and then dematerialized at will, like a shape-shifting magician? How can such a body be described as "physical"?

how could wine made from water be physical? i figure, we are dealing with something miraculous, and so we have to allow for the suspension of what we accept as the physical laws.

And how can a physical body contain the whole universe? Paul says that Christ upholds the whole universe, that the whole world is not only created by him, but rests in him.

How could a physical body have such phenomenal properties?

And how could a physical body be present whereever "two or three are united in my name",...

i don't see the problem. we don't just believe that Jesus has a body, but he is also spirit. thus i don't see why the above are problematic, as they can be encompassed by his Spiritual reality. i'm not so sure his physical reality would limit him, especially since He is God the Son.

... where the bread and wine of the Eucharist are shared?

actually, the Catholics believe that the bread and wine physically (not just spiritually) becomes the body and the blood. since i don't believe the Eucharist is literal, i'll leave it to the Catholics to defend this point.

You Christians only read of the Bible what suits you preconceived materialistic ideas. You reduce the Sriptures to your own limited image and knowledge of the world, where life and reality are inseparable from physicality.

yeah yeah yeah. and you read it with your own preconceived notions... the question is, are we willing to change our views when they need correction?

redifrick

January 30th 2005, 01:16 AM

hI fORUM,

In reading thru various threads I wondered what spurred on the conflicts and it is here:

1) Daniel 12:1-3 doesn't tie in with the great tribulation.

2)the future raising or resurrection is physical not spiritual.

1)

Daniel 12 IS talking about the time of the great tribulation and here are the biblical reasons why:

Daniel 12
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

The above time of distress will happen only one time in all of creation, which is the same as the great tribulation of Matthew 24 or here in Mark 13:

18Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until NOW–and never to be equaled again.

THis is confirmed by John 5:
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has NOW come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

The above has to be read with the following verses in mind:

28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out–those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

The timeframe for this is pointed out by the word NOW in verse 25

1 Thess 4:13-18 again explains that people are raised BEFORE the parousia and/or near the time of the parousia and is referring to the resurrection of the dead.

Going back to Daniel 12 it is clear that Daniel himself will be raised at the time of the end as it says in verse 13:

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

The end of the days is shown to us in Hebrews 9:26 which has been memorized by pretty well everybody.

Much has been written that the righteous are raised first and the wicked 1000 years later. That fails biblical as well, but is a long bible laced explanaion for some other thread. The short form is here in Matthew 25:

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

2)-----the future resurrection or the resurrection of the dead(other than Christ)

I used to use many verses to illustrate this until I saw where one verse is all that is needed.
2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

When the earthly body is destroyed there is the Heavenly body which is eternal IN HEAVEN. HOw much time is left after eternity?

That fits with 1 Cor 15 as it describes the earthly body and the heavenly body, and the heavenly coming AFTER the earthly.

The bible leaves little doubt that the second coming for us is future, but for the resurrection to be in the form of the earthly physical natural tent we walk around in now is not there as I see it.

IN a post earlier I was asked if I was Preterist, futurist or what. I responded that i didn't know. I don't know because I don't agree with any of them in total, yet to some degree with partial and full preterists and agree with the future coming of Christ for all believers.

I will come back and read a bit of the responses to this, but likely will vacate the premises after that. I'm only intereted in strickly biblical interpretations, I have no use for developing a strict understanding of man-made doctrines of any kind.
Bye

redifrick

Vivian

January 30th 2005, 12:30 PM

Has anyone considered the the appearance of Moses and Elijah with Jesus - all in bodies of light - on the mount of transfiguration?

How about the inablity of some followers to recognize the resurrected Jesus?

vivian

redifrick

January 30th 2005, 04:22 PM

Hi Vivian,
{Quote]
Has anyone considered the the appearance of Moses and Elijah with Jesus - all in bodies of light - on the mount of transfiguration?[Quote]

I have. I have also considered the following verses:

2 Cor 4
18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Cor 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

The only verses used by many to argue a physical resurrection of Jesus is verses where Jesus tells Thomas He is not a ghost, combined with Acts 1:11. Here is how Acts 10 is translated in the NASB.

40"God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Jesus was physical at times, Jesus was spiritual at times. Jesus was spiritual for the 4.5 billion years before He manifested on earth thru immaculate birth in the first place. The main thing to remember is that Jesus is God, we aren't and never will be.

I submit that the resurrection of the dead as referred to in Daniel 12 is a spiritual resurrection, as is the first resurrection and the raising of those who precede the people alive at the time of the parousia. This is using the immortal soul situation to understand the scripture and the realm of the afterlife.

I had talked to quite a few people lately that agree with the resurrection of the dead being spiritual to heaven. Would they all have been full preterist? They also felt they had a future judgment in store for themselves.
I know I don't classify myself as being any of these groups, I find things that I feel are unbiblical in all of them. What little I know of their doctrines!!!!!!!

redifrick

Vivian

February 13th 2005, 03:56 PM

How could he have a physical body and ascend to heaven? You guys must be kidding!

Is it not obvious that Jesus materialized and and then dematerialized at will, like a shape-shifting magician? How can such a body be described as "physical"?

And how can a physical body contain the whole universe? Paul says that Christ upholds the whole universe, that the whole world is not only created by him, but rests in him.

How could a physical body have such phenomenal properties?

And how could a physical body be present whereever "two or three are united in my name", where the bread and wine of the Eucharist are shared?

You Christians only read of the Bible what suits you preconceived materialistic ideas. You reduce the Sriptures to your own limited image and knowledge of the world, where life and reality are inseparable from physicality.

It is worse than that Magdalenbro. Our minds are being held captive by the god of this world. That is why so many (and not just Christians!) see no problem with such illogical thinking as has been presented in this thread.

I suggest that all who are holding to blind faith for their salvation do a word search on 'understanding' in the Bible.

"At all costs, get understanding." The Bible

vivian

thebluetriangle

February 13th 2005, 07:14 PM

InChristAlways

February 13th 2005, 07:52 PM

How could he have a physical body and ascend to heaven? You guys must be kidding!

Is it not obvious that Jesus materialized and and then dematerialized at will, like a shape-shifting magician? How can such a body be described as "physical"?

And how can a physical body contain the whole universe? Paul says that Christ upholds the whole universe, that the whole world is not only created by him, but rests in him.

How could a physical body have such phenomenal properties?

And how could a physical body be present whereever "two or three are united in my name", where the bread and wine of the Eucharist are shared?

You Christians only read of the Bible what suits you preconceived materialistic ideas. You reduce the Sriptures to your own limited image and knowledge of the world, where life and reality are inseparable from physicality. Great post!! With such vast knowledge you have, how would you view the "2 witnesses" ascending up in a cloud? For some reason, I just can't visualize "flesh and bone" bodies going up. The next time we see Jesus on a cloud after He was taken up in acts 1 is when He has a "sickle" reaping the elect of the earth. HUH?reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. reve 11: 11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

Vivian

February 14th 2005, 03:33 AM

Great post!! With such vast knowledge you have, how would you view the "2 witnesses" ascending up in a cloud? For some reason, I just can't visualize "flesh and bone" bodies going up. The next time we see Jesus on a cloud after He was taken up in acts 1 is when He has a "sickle" reaping the elect of the earth. HUH?

Is not Heaven where the Kingdom is? And is not the Kingdom within so that Heaven is likewise within?

The clouds of Heaven are known as the firmament that separates the physical from the spiritual, and hence is within as well.

The reference to Jesus and the witnesses ascending is then something that can only be seen with spiritual senses, like the visions common in the Old Testament.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

vivian

Krusader

February 14th 2005, 01:45 PM

Is not Heaven where the Kingdom is? And is not the Kingdom within so that Heaven is likewise within?

The clouds of Heaven are known as the firmament that separates the physical from the spiritual, and hence is within as well.

The reference to Jesus and the witnesses ascending is then something that can only be seen with spiritual senses, like the visions common in the Old Testament.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

vivian
Jesus said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews were awed, and said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you riase it up in three days?" But John clarifies this verse for us: "But He was speaking of the temple of His body," (see John 2:19-21).

Jesus rose from the dead in the very same physical body that He died in. This resurrected body was also a glorified, spiritual body. It was able to go through walls. It could be more than once place at once. It had been changed! Just as our bodies will be changed at the last trump.

"When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord," Jn 20:19-20;

"And He said to them, 'Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and My feet, that it is I Myslef; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.'" (Luke 24:38-39)

What is being stated in the above two passages is so very clear that the only way to get around the physical resurrection of Christ is to simply ignore the meaning of words, or to garble the meaning with some type of mystical interpretation.

Vivian

February 14th 2005, 05:08 PM

Jesus said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews were awed, and said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you riase it up in three days?" But John clarifies this verse for us: "But He was speaking of the temple of His body," (see John 2:19-21).

Jesus rose from the dead in the very same physical body that He died in. This resurrected body was also a glorified, spiritual body. It was able to go through walls. It could be more than once place at once. It had been changed! Just as our bodies will be changed at the last trump.

"When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord," Jn 20:19-20;

"And He said to them, 'Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and My feet, that it is I Myslef; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.'" (Luke 24:38-39)

What is being stated in the above two passages is so very clear that the only way to get around the physical resurrection of Christ is to simply ignore the meaning of words, or to garble the meaning with some type of mystical interpretation.

Actually, Crusader, all it takes is logic.

Go back and read all the stories of Jesus's appearances after His resurrection. The body changed in appearance and was able to "appear" and disappear as if by magic. No such stories exist of Jesus in his physical/natural body before resurrection.

Also note the following....

1 Corinthians 15

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

The " resurrected body" that appeared to Paul was the same "body" that appeared to Peter et al, but Paul did not see him walking down the street or even appearing in the physical clouds. Was it not a mystical experience had by Paul? And so was not Jesus in a different form after resurrection than he was before and even appearing in a different form to Paul than He had the others? Yet he said "his body" would be raised in 3 days.

Is it not obivous that Jesus is referring to something beyond what we think of as a physical/natural body?

Reading on in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul offers some information on the nature of this resurrected body -

35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

This physical/natural body, then, is but a seed of our resurrected/spiritual body. And just as the seed that will grow into the mighty oak, not the oak, the seed or the physical/natural body is not the resurrected/spiritual body.

And we will be transfigured through the renewing of our minds. Paul

After our minds have been purified, cleansed, renewed - through the seed of the physical body, we will be transfigured, the perishable changed into the imperishable.

And Jesus' words and actions in Luke are to show His disciples that He has indeed been transfigured/resurrected and is not merely a discarnate spirit appearing to them

vivian

spiritmech

February 14th 2005, 05:32 PM

All it takes is logic? The resurrection of the body is one of the most essential doctrines of Christianity and to spiritualize it is to deny that He was, in fact, resurrected, just as Adam was fashioned with clay and received a spirit breathed into him from God.

I plead with you guys to not get stuck in this all-too-easy web of spiritualization that isn't Jewish and isn't Christian. Jesus was resurrected in a specific historical context and the expectation was physical.

Paul was a Pharisee, a sect that knew the resurrection of the body was very important. The Sadducees were the ones who denied the resurrection of the body.

DDW has a great article here called "Why Side with the Sadducees" (http://www.hornes.org/theologia/content/mark_horne/why_side_with_the_sadducees.htm).

In addition, the Lord's Prayer says:

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

This means that God still values the material world and will sanctify it.

SM

UPDATE: Changed "They" to "Thy"

Krusader

February 14th 2005, 05:33 PM

Actually, Crusader, all it takes is logic.

Go back and read all the stories of Jesus's appearances after His resurrection. The body changed in appearance and was able to "appear" and disappear as if by magic. No such stories exist of Jesus in his physical/natural body before resurrection.

Also note the following....

1 Corinthians 15

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

The " resurrected body" that appeared to Paul was the same "body" that appeared to Peter et al, but Paul did not see him walking down the street or even appearing in the physical clouds. Was it not a mystical experience had by Paul? And so was not Jesus in a different form after resurrection than he was before and even appearing in a different form to Paul than He had the others? Yet he said "his body" would be raised in 3 days.

Is it not obivous that Jesus is referring to something beyond what we think of as a physical/natural body?

Reading on in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul offers some information on the nature of this resurrected body -

35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

This physical/natural body, then, is but a seed of our resurrected/spiritual body. And just as the seed that will grow into the mighty oak, not the oak, the seed or the physical/natural body is not the resurrected/spiritual body.

And we will be transfigured through the renewing of our minds. Paul

After our minds have been purified, cleansed, renewed - through the seed of the physical body, we will be transfigured, the perishable changed into the imperishable.

And Jesus' words and actions in Luke are to show His disciples that He has indeed been transfigured/resurrected and is not merely a discarnate spirit appearing to them

vivian
Oh Vivian, you see what you want to see! Jesus' body didn't change in appearance, the eyes of different people were "holden," or prevented from recognizing the Lord until after He had spoken to them (see Luke 24:16). The stuff you're spouting now sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses' heresies. You sure are syncritistic!

Sparko

February 14th 2005, 06:30 PM

Actually, Crusader, all it takes is logic.

And Jesus' words and actions in Luke are to show His disciples that He has indeed been transfigured/resurrected and is not merely a discarnate spirit appearing to them

vivian
Uh First you said Jesus was only resurrected as a spirit and not physically, but now you say he was not merely a discarnate spirit? What was he then?

He was physical. He was made of flesh and bones. He said so himself.

Luke 24: 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

InChristAlways

February 14th 2005, 07:27 PM

Uh First you said Jesus was only resurrected as a spirit and not physically, but now you say he was not merely a discarnate spirit? What was he then?

He was physical. He was made of flesh and bones. He said so himself.

Luke 24: 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”So how the heck does he end up on a cloud here with a sickle???? Was He floating around on the cloud all that time until God gave Him the sickle? Could it be that their eyes were "opened" to see Jesus raise up and others not of Christ would not have seen Him? Look at what happened to Paul. He saw a bright light but the others around him didn't. Egads.

reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

Sparko

February 14th 2005, 07:33 PM

You are confusing narrative (Luke) with figurative apocolyptic writing (Revelation)

Are you saying that Jesus LIED to them when he said he was not a ghost but made of flesh and bone?

Krusader

February 14th 2005, 07:34 PM

So how the heck does he end up on a cloud here with a sickle???? Was He floating around on the cloud all that time until God gave Him the sickle? Could it be that their eyes were "opened" to see Jesus raise up and others not of Christ would not have seen Him? Look at what happened to Paul. He saw a bright light but the others around him didn't. Egads.

reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
ICA: What are you trying to say? Are you agreeing with John or not? Did Christ's physical body rise from the dead or not?

themuzicman

February 14th 2005, 10:20 PM

Maybe this is a dumb question, but if resurrection is being raised from the dead, and Christ wasn't raised physcially, what exactly is BEING raised from the dead? God the Son?

Michael

Sparko

February 15th 2005, 12:09 AM

Maybe this is a dumb question, but if resurrection is being raised from the dead, and Christ wasn't raised physcially, what exactly is BEING raised from the dead? God the Son?

Michael
Good question. For those who claim Jesus was resurrected a spirit, I say, how is that being resurrected? When you die you become a spirit. That is what happens if you are NOT resurrected. If you are resurrected you are being brought back to life physically.

Vivian

February 16th 2005, 11:38 PM

InChristAlways

February 28th 2005, 12:31 AM

A resurrected being is clothed in a light body as we saw donned by Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration They can materialize and dematerialize at will - appearing in flesh and blood bodies if they choose, or in bodies that can move through walls, appearing and disappearing as Jesus did.

For those who do not resurrect/transfigure, upon physical death their soul or subtle bodies travel to the astral sphere (via the light seen in a NDE), which for those who have have lived good lives feels very Heavenly. But because they are still clothed in rags (souls with karmic imprints), they will have to return to physical earth via another incarnation to continue working out their salvation.

Hmm. That appears to be the DF's view on Jesus' return for the 1000yrs!!!! :teeth:

Hidden Manna

March 3rd 2005, 12:51 AM

Good question. For those who claim Jesus was resurrected a spirit, I say, how is that being resurrected? When you die you become a spirit. That is what happens if you are NOT resurrected. If you are resurrected you are being brought back to life physically.

The Resurrection of Christ: Physical or Non-physical?
This discussion opens a “can of worms” doctrinally speaking, as this doctrine lies at the very core of the Christian faith, supposedly - according to Creedalists and traditionists anyway. “If you deny the PHYSICAL resurrection of Christ” (they say, authoritatively) “you deny the Christian faith, and are no more than a heretic or worse”. SO...this idea that Christ Jesus rose from the grave PHYSICALLY (which I subscribed to myself, for many years) must be examined and critiqued carefully and with the utmost care taken to evaluate the language, inferences and context associated with all texts relevant to this event.

One of the most popular passages of Scripture associated with this subject is 1Corinthians 15. Paul goes engages in a lengthy homily on the subject of the resurrection, and in actual fact - at no point in this passage does he specify that CHRIST’S resurrection was, indeed, PHYSICAL. In fact, he does the opposite. Without going through the passage verse by verse, suffice it to say that Paul clearly states (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) that Christ was raised a SPIRIT being.

45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual .47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. (1Cor. 15:45-50)

In the context, then, of Paul’s homily on the resurrection concept, he clearly states (above, in v.45) that Christ Jesus was made a “life-giving SPIRIT”. The argument that Christ ascended into heaven in bodily, physical form, then, is totally defeated by this statement. Paul’s subsequent statements, as highlighted above, further emphasize and reiterate the point that physical bodies ARE NOT PERMITTED entrance into God’s Presence in heaven. Those who dwell with God in the heavenlies have spirit forms, NOT physical bodies.

Christ Jesus Himself made this very clear in His defense of the resurrection to the Sadducees, in Matt. 22:30, “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven .” There is no marrying or giving in marriage in “the resurrection” (the place to which the saints were resurrected, in the First Century - the heavenly Promised Land) because those who participate in it and dwell in heaven eternally ARE LIKE THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN. They do not PROCREATE, because they are NON-PHYSICAL SPIRIT BEINGS, like the angels. We know the angels are non-physical spirit beings through the clear statements of many texts such as Heb. 1:7, “And of the angels He says: “ Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”

Christ’s tomb was empty because the angels “spirited” His physical, pre-death body away (the physical body He possessed during His earthly ministry). NO-ONE witnessed Christ walking out of the tomb and handled him physically to verify that at the moment of his exiting the tomb He possessed His previous, physical body. In actual fact, Christ rose from “the dead” (the place of the dead - Sheol) as a Living Being, in SPIRIT form. He could assume any appearance He chose, which is why the disciples on the road to Emmaus didn’t immediately recognize Him as He conversed with them, and why when they DID recognize Him, He immediately VANISHED OUT OF THEIR SIGHT (as SPIRIT BEINGS are capable to do, but which action PHYSICAL BEINGS are not capable of).

13 Now behold, two of them were traveling that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him ... 30 Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight. 32 And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?” 33 So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, 34 saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” 35 And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread.

It COULD be argued that this instance of His post-resurrection appearances to His disciples was evidence of God’s hand upon THEM, in blinding them to Christ’s true identity until a specific moment in their interactions. In other words, some might argue that this anecdote doesn’t speak directly to Christ’s post-resurrection form, but to His disciples’ perceptions, as governed by God. But let us consider other texts in conjunction with the one above, to see if there is further clarification elsewhere.

40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God , even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead (Acts 10:40,41)
This Jesus who was raised from the dead was an interesting Being. He was not readily visible to just anyone alive in those days. Rather, it was necessary to SHOW Him to people (i.e. to MANIFEST Him to people). Spirit beings have always had the capacity to take on physical form for brief periods of time, MANIFESTING themselves in physical form for various reasons. We see this in God’s appearance to Abraham, where He appeared to him in the form of three men and actually LUNCHED with Abraham. We see the angel physically WRESTLING with Jacob in Genesis also, and other instances of spirit beings taking on physical characteristics and appearance for a time, to accomplish a specific purpose. I believe the bulk of the Scriptural evidence (which hasn’t been presented here in this introductory post by any means), shows that Christ Jesus ALSO had this type of form.

The one text most commonly used to attempt to refute the idea that Christ’s resurrection was strictly spiritual is His appearance to Thomas and His words to Him, found in Luke 24:39, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Christ Jesus SEEMS to be stating that He is NOT a “resurrected spirit being” here. But if we consider His actual words carefully, it becomes evident that He is inferring, or implying, that He is not a disembodied “ghost” or “deceiving spirit”, but that He WAS, in fact, the risen Lord. The whole point of these manifestations of Himself, physically, to His followers, was to confirm that His PERSON was raised from Sheol, and His spirit was NOT still imprisoned, awaiting the resurrection, like their forefathers.

Christ was concerned that His followers understand that the Person with whom they were interacting was HIM, and not just a phantom or spectre, tricking them into thinking that He had risen. A mere “spirit” of a departed person does not manifest physical qualities (not until it is resurrected and glorified, anyway) but a resurrected SPIRIT BEING (a person who has experienced resurrection) and has taken on a “heavenly form”, is essentially spirit in essence, and yet has the capacity to manifest himself physically, at will.

If Christ possessed the IDENTICAL physical body He had on the cross and before, during His earthly ministry, He would NOT have been able to pass through closed, locked doors and materialize in front of His disciples (John 20:19ff.), nor could He dematerialize in front of their eyes (like He did with the disciples on their way to Emmaus).

If Christ possessed the very same physical body that went INTO the tomb, it would not have been necessary for God to MAKE HIM VISIBLE to select witnesses to His resurrection (per the statements in Acts 10, above).

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 11:12 AM

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 11:41 AM

1st:

If he was not resurrected physically, the why was his body missing?

2nd:

If he was a spirit, then why did he go to great lengths to say and show he was not?

A: He ate fish
B: He still had his scars to show Thomas.
C: He said he was NOT A SPIRT, BUT FLESH AND BONES. (you can try to explain that away as you did above, but the words from Jesus are plain)

3rd:

Because Jesus could appear and disapear or make people not recognize him does not mean it is a function of all resurrection bodies. We must remember that Jesus was not just a man, but God himself. What powers he had have nothing to do with what our glorified resurrection bodies will have.Hi JS. Jesus was to be one like unto Moses, a Prophet, but Jesus was also said to be the only One not to see corruption and decay. The other thing that is interesting is that God buried Moses. What was the significance of that? If abraham and David were so important, why didn't God bury them also?. Do you believe this signifies that God may have buried Jesus but manifested Him to His followers to show that we are indeed resurrected? Their eyes would have had to be "opened" to see Him as shown in various other passages.
And remember, Paul didn't see Jesus "physically", and what would the reason for that be? Why didn't He appear to Paul the same way as to the other followers after His resurrection? Duet 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. acts 2: 25 "For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption[#1312]. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 "Men [and] brethren, let [me] speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

1311 diaphtheiro dee-af-thi'-ro from 1225 and 5351; to rot thoroughly, i.e. (by implication) to ruin (passively, decay utterly, figuratively, pervert):--corrupt, destroy, perish.
1312 diaphthora dee-af-thor-ah' from 1311; decay:--corruption.

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 12:06 PM

Jesus was also said to be the only One not to see corruption and decay.

Uh he didn't see corruption and decay because his body was resurrected. :doh:

You defeat your own argument.

And remember, Paul didn't see Jesus "physically",

Says who? He was blinded by the light from Jesus, but that doesn't mean he wasn't there physically. Or even that Jesus was physically in heaven and communicating with Jesus via the vision of light. Kinda like a telephone call from heaven.

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 12:32 PM

acts 2: 25 "For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the LORD always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption[#1312]. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 "Men [and] brethren, let [me] speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 "This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Uh he didn't see corruption and decay because his body was resurrected. :doh:

You defeat your own argument.
Says who? He was blinded by the light from Jesus, but that doesn't mean he wasn't there physically. Or even that Jesus was physically in heaven and communicating with Jesus via the vision of light. Kinda like a telephone call from heaven.Hi JS. Of course!!!! Why didn't I think of that? Sorry bro, my statement stands that Paul did not see Jesus in the flesh. Nice try though.
Now, why do you suppose God buried Moses in Deut??

Duet 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 01:16 PM

Hi JS. Of course!!!! Why didn't I think of that? Sorry bro, my statement stands that Paul did not see Jesus in the flesh. Nice try though.

The point is that Thomas, Peter, John, et al, DID see Jesus in the Flesh and Jesus even said he was "Flesh and Bones" and not "a ghost" so your argument is nonsense. Unless you are calling Jesus a liar, then you are just being blasphemous.

Now, why do you suppose God buried Moses in Deut??

Duet 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.

What does that have to do with Jesus being resurrected in the flesh?

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 01:22 PM

The point is that Thomas, Peter, John, et al, DID see Jesus in the Flesh and Jesus even said he was "Flesh and Bones" and not "a ghost" so your argument is nonsense. Unless you are calling Jesus a liar, then you are just being blasphemous.

What does that have to do with Jesus being resurrected in the flesh?Yes. That was BEFORE He ascended and a cloud hid Him. Could this be what Jesus looked like AFTER He ascended? I hope that is what I will look like when I am resurrected!!!!!:smile:

reve 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 01:30 PM

Yes. That was BEFORE He ascended and a cloud hid Him. Could this be what Jesus looked like AFTER He ascended? I hope that is what I will look like when I am resurrected!!!!!:smile:

reve 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;

So you now think that Jesus was resurrected in his body, in flesh, and then he lost his body when he went up into heaven?

You seem to keep changing your story.

Also the angels said that Jesus would return in the same way he left. Meaning in his body.

So do you think Jesus has his body hanging in a closet in heaven somewhere, packed away in mothballs till he returns again?

Revelation uses figurative language to descibe events and people. Do you think the beast will/was really be a dragon with 10 heads running around?

And how did Jesus walk with metal feet? Seems a little hard to do. And his gurgling voice must have been hard to understand.

:doh:

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 01:38 PM

So you now think that Jesus was resurrected in his body, in flesh, and then he lost his body when he went up into heaven?

You seem to keep changing your story.

Also the angels said that Jesus would return in the same way he left. Meaning in his body.

So do you think Jesus has his body hanging in a closet in heaven somewhere, packed away in mothballs till he returns again?

Revelation uses figurative language to descibe events and people. Do you think the beast will/was really be a dragon with 10 heads running around?

And how did Jesus walk with metal feet? Seems a little hard to do. And his gurgling voice must have been hard to understand.

:doh:Hi JS.
That is for you to figure out and study on just as I have. Revelation wasn't written for carnal unbelievers to read, but those elect in Jesus to read and understand in the Spirit, since John also had to be "in the spirit" to view it.
Of course it is a highly symbolic book with "signs/symbols" written in jewish apocalyptic language.
Even the flood of Noah is mentioned in it. Ironic that period is also how long it took Titus to "plow" Jerusalem,[as prophecied in the scriptures], the destruction of the OC heaven and earth. Fascinating.

genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

reve 9:5 And they were not given [authority] to kill them, but to torment them [for] five months. Their torment [was] like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

Daniel 12:1 And, at that time, will Michael, the great ruler who standeth for the sons of thy people, make a stand, and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, up to that time,--and, at that time, shall thy people, be delivered, every one found written in the hook; 2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,--these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;

revelaton 12:7 And there came to be war in heaven: Michael and his messengers [going forth] to war with the dragon; and, the dragon, fought, and his messengers; because the accuser of our brethren hath been cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night; 11 And, they, overcame him by reason of the blood of the Lamb, and by reason of their witnessing word, and they loved not their life, even unto death.

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 01:43 PM

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 01:57 PM

First, your post really did not answer any questions but was just a dodge,

and second:

Don't take this thread down the preterist road, if that is where you are heading. This is thread is about Jesus' resurrection, was it physical. So let's stay on topic.Hmm. Ok JS. I will just let others argue about this, as Paul shows Jesus was not "flesh and blood" when He appeared to him. Only those that Jesus opened eyes could see Him, otherwise why didn't Jesus just go right into the middle of Jerusalem itself and all over Israel and let ALL OF THEM witness His bodily resurrection, even the corrupt jewish rulers that had Him crucified? Guess that is what FAITH is all about.
Of course the corrupt jewish rulers saw Him "manifested" in the roman army that came and destroyed them 40 yrs later. Good bye brother and I will just leave this topic for now.

acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Jesus coming for those that saw Him go in the clould.

revel 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

Those that had Him crucified:

reve 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 02:24 PM

Hmm. Ok JS. I will just let others argue about this, as Paul shows Jesus was not "flesh and blood" when He appeared to him.

Where does Paul say this? He never said whether he saw Jesus in the flesh or not. You are reading what you want into the bible.

Only those that Jesus opened eyes could see Him, otherwise why didn't Jesus just go right into the middle of Jerusalem itself and all over Israel and let ALL OF THEM witness His bodily resurrection, even the corrupt jewish rulers that had Him crucified? Guess that is what FAITH is all about.

He did go around and let others see him. What do you think the 500 witnesses were?

1 Cor 15: 3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28706a)]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=31&context=chapter#fen-NIV-28708b)] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

(an aside: Paul seems to be saying that Jesus appeared to him in the same form he appeared to the apostles and witnesses. That can be taken to mean that he saw Jesus in the flesh, too.)

Whether he appeared to the Pharisees or not we don't have a clue, since it was not mentioned one way or the other. If he did appear to them, some might have converted and other might have thought they were being tricked by a twin or imagining things. It is just speculation since it is not mentioned.

John20:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

Luke 24:37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” 40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.

Acts1:3 After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them...

--
What was the purpose of this if not to convince the disciples that he was flesh and not a spirit? Was Jesus trying to fool them?

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 02:36 PM

He did go around and let others see him. What do you think the 500 witnesses were? Hi JS. I said ALL of the people in Jerusalem and all over Israel. Why didn't He manifest Himself to EVERYONE in Israel instead of those 500 and his disciples? Then there would be no doubt about His resurrection.
Could that have to do with Faith and Belief in the Words that are written about Him in the Scriptures? Unfortunately for the corrupt jewish rulers, they never searched the scriptures and as prophecied, they were made "blind".

John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 "But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

john 9:39 And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind."

Sparko

March 3rd 2005, 03:52 PM

Hi JS. I said ALL of the people in Jerusalem and all over Israel. Why didn't He manifest Himself to EVERYONE in Israel instead of those 500 and his disciples? Then there would be no doubt about His resurrection.

Let me ask you the same question. If he was a spirit, then he could appear all over the place very easily. Why didn't he?

Could it be that he was in a physical body and limited to appearing in one place at one time?

Could that have to do with Faith and Belief in the Words that are written about Him in the Scriptures? Unfortunately for the corrupt jewish rulers, they never searched the scriptures and as prophecied, they were made "blind".

And what does that have to do with whether he is physically resurrected or not?

You keep going off on tangents. Yes, it could be because he knew they would reject him even if he showed them he came back from the dead (just like he says in the parable of the rich man and lazarus) so he didn't bother. It does nothing in the way of helping your case that Jesus did not resurrect physically in the same body he died in. Plus in the last post you implied that he was in a physical body until after he rose and was hidden by the clouds. Which is it?

Vivian

March 3rd 2005, 04:23 PM

Let me ask you the same question. If he was a spirit, then he could appear all over the place very easily. Why didn't he?

Could it be that he was in a physical body and limited to appearing in one place at one time?

And what does that have to do with whether he is physically resurrected or not?

You keep going off on tangents. Yes, it could be because he knew they would reject him even if he showed them he came back from the dead (just like he says in the parable of the rich man and lazarus) so he didn't bother. It does nothing in the way of helping your case that Jesus did not resurrect physically in the same body he died in. Plus in the last post you implied that he was in a physical body until after he rose and was hidden by the clouds. Which is it?

Wow! I misplaced this thread!

InChrist, in a past reply to viv you mention DFs. What is a DF?

1 Corinthians 15 explains resurrection. The physical body, the perishable, is the seed for the spiritual body, the imperishable. As Paul says, this is a mystery. It is the mystery of transfiguration.

And the reason Jesus's body disappeared (as happens with all who are resurrected) is because it was transfigured and as a mystery it was not for the masses to see.

Lazarus was not raised to an imperishable body, not transfigured, that is why his old physical perishable body came back to life in front of witnesses.

Jesus was transfigured, raised as imperishable, to a new form. Lazarus was simply raised from the dead.

viv

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 05:33 PM

Wow! I misplaced this thread!

InChrist, in a past reply to viv you mention DFs. What is a DF?

1 Corinthians 15 explains resurrection. The physical body, the perishable, is the seed for the spiritual body, the imperishable. As Paul says, this is a mystery. It is the mystery of transfiguration.

And the reason Jesus's body disappeared (as happens with all who are resurrected) is because it was transfigured and as a mystery it was not for the masses to see.

Lazarus was not raised to an imperishable body, not transfigured, that is why his old physical perishable body came back to life in front of witnesses.

Jesus was transfigured, raised as imperishable, to a new form. Lazarus was simply raised from the dead.

vivHi Vivian. DF's means dispenasationalists futurists. As much as I hate labels, dispensationalists believe that they will be "raptured" into the air, while the evil ones get to battle it out down here, then Jesus comes back to save Israel for a "1000yrs", then the New Jerusalem comes down.
Another words, Jesus didn't finish the job the first time so He as to come again to do it all over.
That doctrine has done more to split the churches than any that I know of. But yet it is still "orthodox". EGADS!!! Israel of course mocks the churches because of that unscriptuaral belief and I don't really blame them.

Vivian

March 3rd 2005, 09:30 PM

Hi Vivian. DF's means dispenasationalists futurists. As much as I hate labels, dispensationalists believe that they will be "raptured" into the air, while the evil ones get to battle it out down here, then Jesus comes back to save Israel for a "1000yrs", then the New Jerusalem comes down.
Another words, Jesus didn't finish the job the first time so He as to come again to do it all over.
That doctrine has done more to split the churches than any that I know of. But yet it is still "orthodox". EGADS!!! Israel of course mocks the churches because of that unscriptuaral belief and I don't really blame them.

Dispensationalists futurists?

Sounds ugly! brrrr.

The anger that i detect in your words is understandable, for the traditional Christian Church has truly trampled the fields that His sheep feed upon. Any one touting truthfulness is bullied, persectuted - even beheaded! And otherwise driven underground.

Light is hard to find in this world!

Although the meaning behind the term "Rapture" has been distorted beyond recognition by Churchianity, it is based on some element of Truth. A rapture is simply a resurrection and the term "Rapture" was originally used to mean a group resurrection or a harvest, such as recorded in the New Testament at the time of Jesus, death and resurrection. The graves (the earth - which is the world of the dead) were opened and released their captives. It was the first harvest reaped from the seeds that Jesus had sown.

If we look in the Old Testament, we see that Enoch was raptured as was Elijah. Moses as well although not as obvious by the text.

There are other stories that tell symbolicly of individual and group raptures. Lot's story being one, but the most well known story of group Rapture or harvest, is the story of Noah and His family. The Ark is the Christ energy that surrounds and Raptures beings prior to a major earth change - a catastrophic event. And as Jesus says, our end times will be the same as Noah's.

Presently there are very few in the world doing the work of "building the Ark". Like in the days of Noah, most are busy eating, and drinking, and giving in marriage. In Noahs' day only 8 people were harvested. It does not look as if it will be many more this time around.

The reason that there is such disagreement regarding the timing of the events told of in Revelation, and whether they are literal or symbolic is because they are all - past, present, future, literal and symbolic.

Humanity has a tendency to limit its perspective, putting Truth and God into a box.

We on earth go through cycles as laid out in our heavens. Our sun/solar system rotates around its sun every 26,000 years, and so if one is looking at the meaning of a "day" as defined in Genesis 1, we certainly cannot limit it to our small little world's day. (If we are talking of a day for all creation, is it certainly much longer than's earth's measely 24 hours!)

There have been many cycles of Saviors and harvests. And so Revelation is not simply a prophecy of our future but also a telling of our past. It is also symbolic of the inner Armageddon each of us must go through, as well as a more literal depiction of the Armageddon that has already begun in the fallen spiritual sphreres and even now beginning to spill over into the physical.

An interesting note is that the world has incorrectly interpreted the cycles in Revelation where 1/3 of the population perishes as referring to physical death. This death is death of the ego, meaning that a symbolic 1/3 repented and were harvested, but none of those remaining repented until the next cycle of destruction.

viv

InChristAlways

March 3rd 2005, 10:24 PM

There have been many cycles of Saviors and harvests. And so Revelation is not simply a prophecy of our future but also a telling of our past. It is also symbolic of the inner Armageddon each of us must go through, as well as a more literal depiction of the Armageddon that has already begun in the fallen spiritual sphreres and even now beginning to spill over into the physical.Yes, that is near my understanding also Viv. as the "rapture" is shown in reve 14 and 11[the "cloud"].
Though the "literal" fulfillement was through the jews in the first century as prophecied[Ezekiel 39/reve 19], the spiritual fulfillness goes on thru the ages of ages.
Note the parallel between the rich man and Lazarus in Luke[ "And He spoke this parable unto them, saying" (Lk. 15:3). , to Jeremiah 17 the "sin of Judah", and the "lake of fire" in revelation. It is a fire of "testing and trying" and is it any wonder that it was "tongues of fire" that came at pentecost?
Right now, I am into more of "harmonzing" revelation, then doing a commentary on it eventually after I have gotten it all translated , but not the translators fault, as it is so devine and symbolic, the translators were unsure of how some verses should even be translated.
The Bible is so vast and deep, I can honestly say I will never comprehend it all in my lifetime, but what a joy and pleasure to grow in Christ and gain wisdom and knowledge with Him every day.

Acts 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and [one] sat upon each of them.

hebrew 12:[i]28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Hidden Manna

March 3rd 2005, 10:32 PM

Christ's resurrection had to have been physical because we are told His body would not see decay. This was speaking of His physical body and so would necessitate a physical resurrection to justify this

The scrip[ture does not say His physical body, it simple say He will not see decay. As far as Christ body, the Church is His physical body on earth and our Spirit and soul will not see decay. But the physical body rots after death and turn back into dust as the scripture says. We are resurrected at the point of physical death, spiritually into a glorified spiritual body that will be one with Jesus Christ.

Vivian

March 4th 2005, 12:27 AM

Yes, that is near my understanding also Viv. as the "rapture" is shown in reve 14 and 11[the "cloud"].
Though the "literal" fulfillement was through the jews in the first century as prophecied[Ezekiel 39/reve 19], the spiritual fulfillness goes on thru the ages of ages.
Note the parallel between the rich man and Lazarus in Luke[ "And He spoke this parable unto them, saying" (Lk. 15:3). , to Jeremiah 17 the "sin of Judah", and the "lake of fire" in revelation. It is a fire of "testing and trying" and is it any wonder that it was "tongues of fire" that came at pentecost?
Right now, I am into more of "harmonzing" revelation, then doing a commentary on it eventually after I have gotten it all translated , but not the translators fault, as it is so devine and symbolic, the translators were unsure of how some verses should even be translated.
The Bible is so vast and deep, I can honestly say I will never comprehend it all in my lifetime, but what a joy and pleasure to grow in Christ and gain wisdom and knowledge with Him every day.

Acts 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and [one] sat upon each of them.

hebrew 12:[i]28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

The depths of the Bible cannot be fully understood by studying but by actually walking the journey Home. That is why it is called a Testament, a Witness, for it is a testament of the journey each of us will have to take.

As we follow Christ, more and more is opened to us by the Master Himself.

Eventually, though, we begin to see that these Truths are not only contained within the Bible, but everywhere in creation. They are in the constellations and under the rocks. In all the fairy tales of old, our myths, even in the original scriptures of many religious traditions. Most important they are seen within each man. Nothing is in isolation. All is connected and all of form has been given to help us find the Way Home.

Your work could provide a needed bridge in these times for the outer events that are beginning to occur may indeed contain keys that will aid in awakening humanity.

You may be interested in the teachings from OM Place Ministry. Their writings offer the most complete understanding of the Bible that I have found.

http://www.omplaceministry.org/

viv

InChristAlways

March 4th 2005, 02:05 AM

The depths of the Bible cannot be fully understood by studying but by actually walking the journey Home. That is why it is called a Testament, a Witness, for it is a testament of the journey each of us will have to take.

As we follow Christ, more and more is opened to us by the Master Himself.

Eventually, though, we begin to see that these Truths are not only contained within the Bible, but everywhere in creation. They are in the constellations and under the rocks. In all the fairy tales of old, our myths, even in the original scriptures of many religious traditions. Most important they are seen within each man. Nothing is in isolation. All is connected and all of form has been given to help us find the Way Home.

Your work could provide a needed bridge in these times for the outer events that are beginning to occur may indeed contain keys that will aid in awakening humanity.

You may be interested in the teachings from OM Place Ministry. Their writings offer the most complete understanding of the Bible that I have found.

http://www.omplaceministry.org/

vivHi Vivian. I will check out the site, but always with the "spirit of discernment". Revelation itself could take decades to get to the inner depths and multi layers of devineness written in it, but God willing, I will go as deep as He allows me with it. Translating it is also a pleasure and has helped reveal more of the deepness of the Word in it than I could ever have imagined. I read thru the scriptures daily, but I also study parts of it deeply.
This site also has some good deep "spiritual insights", but I just ran across it over the weekend while looking for some studies on "Abraham's bosom", so I haven't had a chance to peruse it yet. The parable of the rich man and lazarus is indeed a fantastic parable in the NT!!!>

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the parables in the Bible.

When the rich man in hell begs for mercy he is reminded that "there is a great gulf fixed" in between the poor man in Abraham's bosom and him in his hell, "so that they which would pass from us unto you cannot, neither can they pass to us that would come from thence." Surely this was to clinch agony with agony and to rivet it with despair. There is certainly a great gulf fixed today between the Jews who have suffered hell during this dispensation of the Church, and the people who are now enjoying the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The Jews believe that Jesus is an imposter to this very day. They are Christ rejectors, and know nothing whatever of life and reality and blessing and glory in the Spirit; but the body of Christ gathered out of all nations, enjoying the covenant blessing, is the seed of Abraham by faith, inheriting the promises. And between these two there is "a great gulf fixed." For the house of Judah to return to Abraham's bosom today would mean for the Jews to return to the bosom of Jesus Christ and this seems to be far from the present tendencies or aspirations of the Jewish people. He who sent the rich man to hell, and put in place that ominous Gulf of separation from Abraham's bosom, is the very same One of whom it is written, "For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL" (Rom. 11:32).

themuzicman

March 4th 2005, 12:18 PM

The scrip[ture does not say His physical body, it simple say He will not see decay. As far as Christ body, the Church is His physical body on earth and our Spirit and soul will not see decay. But the physical body rots after death and turn back into dust as the scripture says. We are resurrected at the point of physical death, spiritually into a glorified spiritual body that will be one with Jesus Christ.

Spirit and soul are NOT THE BODY. Paul doesn't have to say "physical body", because the very word body has physical implied within it.

Michael

InChristAlways

March 4th 2005, 12:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Hidden Manna The scrip[ture does not say His physical body, it simple say He will not see decay. As far as Christ body, the Church is His physical body on earth and our Spirit and soul will not see decay. But the physical body rots after death and turn back into dust as the scripture says. We are resurrected at the point of physical death, spiritually into a glorified spiritual body that will be one with Jesus Christ.
Spirit and soul are NOT THE BODY. Paul doesn't have to say "physical body", because the very word body has physical implied within it.

MichaelHi mm. Without the breath of life, we are just a "shell", a lump of dust, bones and flesh. Only with the breath of life do we become a living "soul". That soul goes back to dust upon death, our "last breath".
The breath of the Spirit gives eternal life so we never die though we die.
Our bodies will still be worm food, but not our spirit. I won't bother explaining Ezekiel 37, but that chapter should be studied in relation to this subject. The only place I see in scriptures on what Jesus looked like AFTER He was taken up is in chapt 14 when He is gathering the firstfruits elect saints before the wraths are poured out on Israel in the first century. chapt 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. The "jews" of today still fail to see what is meant by the "Spirit" in scriptures and why they remain blind to it but for some odd reason, there are christians that feel Jesus is coming back for them "in the flesh" to reign on earth "physicall". HUH? God bless.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being/soul.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 10 And if Christ in you, the body [is] dead because of sin, but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

[i]ezekiel 37:13 "Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken [it] and performed [it,"] says the LORD.' "

Vivian

March 4th 2005, 04:16 PM

Hidden Manna

March 4th 2005, 10:10 PM

Spirit and soul are NOT THE BODY. Paul doesn't have to say "physical body", because the very word body has physical implied within it.

Michael

Like I said before, Jesus was made into a Life-Giving Spirit who manifested Himself in a physical body for short periods of time to do the will of the father. So that is how I say Jesus have a bodily resurrection. Comprehenda.

Do you not believe Jesus was made it to a Life-Giving Spirit after He rose from the dead?

InChristAlways

March 13th 2005, 03:12 PM

Hi Vivian. I will check out the site, but always with the "spirit of discernment". Revelation itself could take decades to get to the inner depths and multi layers of devineness written in it, but God willing, I will go as deep as He allows me with it. Translating it is also a pleasure and has helped reveal more of the deepness of the Word in it than I could ever have imagined. I read thru the scriptures daily, but I also study parts of it deeply.
This site also has some good deep "spiritual insights", but I just ran across it over the weekend while looking for some studies on "Abraham's bosom", so I haven't had a chance to peruse it yet. The parable of the rich man and lazarus is indeed a fantastic parable in the NT!!!>

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the parables in the Bible.

When the rich man in hell begs for mercy he is reminded that "there is a great gulf fixed" in between the poor man in Abraham's bosom and him in his hell, "so that they which would pass from us unto you cannot, neither can they pass to us that would come from thence." Surely this was to clinch agony with agony and to rivet it with despair. There is certainly a great gulf fixed today between the Jews who have suffered hell during this dispensation of the Church, and the people who are now enjoying the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. The Jews believe that Jesus is an imposter to this very day. They are Christ rejectors, and know nothing whatever of life and reality and blessing and glory in the Spirit; but the body of Christ gathered out of all nations, enjoying the covenant blessing, is the seed of Abraham by faith, inheriting the promises. And between these two there is "a great gulf fixed." For the house of Judah to return to Abraham's bosom today would mean for the Jews to return to the bosom of Jesus Christ and this seems to be far from the present tendencies or aspirations of the Jewish people. He who sent the rich man to hell, and put in place that ominous Gulf of separation from Abraham's bosom, is the very same One of whom it is written, "For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon ALL" (Rom. 11:32).
Yes. This is a much skimmed over parable that has many deeper meanings.

To find these in depth truths we must not limit our understanding by what seems obvious to us in the moment, but always be willing to let go, to empty our cup and allow God to refill it with even greater understanding.

The images offered humanity through the nation of Israel have deeper meanings that can be applied not just to this particular race, but to all of humanity.

Just as Israel became Christ rejectors at the appearance of Jesus, so has and does humanity.

We are Israel, Egypt, Babylon. We are the woman at the well, Mary the Mother of Jesus, the rich young man. Every story, image, in the Bible is for each of us personally. Our earnest desire to search through these stories for deeper meaning will eventually take the sincere seeker into himself and so into all of humanity [edited to add] and ultimately God.

The Kingdom is within.

That is why another great adage is repeated across multiple spiritual traditions - Man Know Thyself.

vivHi Vivian. Try telling the churches of today that. The catholic church for centuries thought the "flames of torment" referred to living souls roasting in hell forever. That is a prophecy against the Jews of Judah["Rich man"] and why revelation is almost identical to it and jeremiah 17. But no problem, the churches believe Jesus is returning again to save the "jews" of today for a 1000yrs while the church is feasting away in the kingdome above. The jews recieved the punishment and wrath in the first century as prohecied in the Prophets and revelation. It is "FINISHED".

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

In order to be of "the faith", we have to believe in the manmade interpretations of the creeds and we all know what those have done for the churches, and evidently Martin Luther also disagreed somewhere down the line.
Paul and Jesus themselves gave us the creeds, the churches just decided to try and interpret them for us, just as the Pope interpets that bible for his "flock", and we all know what that is like today, as no church comes closer to judaism/works based worship than the catholic church who have more statues then the buddhists or hindus have..

I prefer to belong to the church that Jesus instituted and Paul expounded on, faith that is of Jesus, that He was resurrected from the dead, True God of True God, and we have ETERNAL LIFE through Him. Does it really matter if we believe in our own physically resurrected flesh and blood body and that Jesus is returning to Earth in the future to finish what He didn't finish 2000yrs ago?.

I read the bible as completely and biblically fulfilled, but the real joy of having Jesus in me is gaining more knowledge about God the Father and creator Himself, and sharing that with others, without even referring to the CREEDS themselves. I just tell christians to just avoid the creeds and read the Bible, because if a person is in Jesus, Jesus will not lead His elect astray, though the "carnal/earthly" churches of today can and do.

Most of us can agree with the truths expressed in the Apostles Creed. Some may wonder how anyone could legitimately object to it as a confession of the church. The problem is not that the Apostles Creed is erroneous, but that it is a human expression placed on par with the divine revelation of the Bible. Human writings are not wrong because they are human, but they become wrong when they presume to speak for God. If the teachings of the Apostles Creed are not controversial, such can not be said for the hundreds of creeds of Christendom which have followed it. Creeds, catechisms, and confessions to faith are usually written to insure that future generations adhere to the religious beliefs laid down. Unfortunately, creeds often contradict one another. When they do, some of them at least perpetrate religious error. They also become a major source of disunity. If two people accept contradictory confessions, there is no way that they can get together unless one or both abandon their creed. For example, if one, creed teaches that a man is saved by works and another affirms that he is saved by faith, the problem can only be resolved by forgetting about both creeds and going directly to the source of revelation, the Bible. Even more unfortunately, the religious disunity which creeds help to perpetuate often causes seekers of truth to abandon their quest in utter despair. God has revealed his will for us in his Holy Book, the Bible. This is not man's interpretation of God's will, as is true of creeds, but it is God's will itself. In seeking to determine what is pleasing to our Maker, therefore, let us abandon human confessions of faith and remember the admonition of the apostle Peter, "If any man speak let him speak as the oracles of God". I Peter 4:11.