John 10v30-36 - Jesus is the Son of God

[TrevorL]

If we take John 10:30 in isolation, we could speculate as to what Jesus is stating.
John 10:30 (KJV): "I and my Father are one."
But Jesus leaves us in no doubt, because in v.36 he:explains that in John 10:30 he claimed to be the Son of God:
John 10:36 (KJV): "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
He is the Son of God revealing the character of the Father, and God the Father sanctified Him and sent Him into the world..

The usage of this term "one" in John 10:30 is clearly defined in the following and it also uses the same words "sanctify" and "sent into the world" that occur in John 10:36 to define Jesus as the Son of God.
John 17:11,14-23 (KJV): "11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The unity between God the Father and the Son of God is to be shared with those who allow the word of God to sanctify them. Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV): "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Kind regards
Trevor

[TrevorL]

John 10:34-35 (KJV): "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Jesus is quoting from Psalm 82:6, but some background to this usage of "gods" may help. Jesus was speaking of certain people who were appointed as judges in Israel. This is based upon Exodus 18:13-27 where Moses appointed these judges. They had received the word of God, and they were supposed to be impartial in their judgment, using God's laws correctly.
Exodus 18:21-22 (KJV): "21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: 22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee."

The judges were called "gods" because they judged on God's behalf::
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): "And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment."
Deuteronomy 1:16-17 (KJV): "16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. 17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it."
The judges were meant to administer God's words without respect of persons or taking bribes.

Psalm 82 where Jesus is quoting from, is speaking out against certain judges, who had failed in their responsibility to fulfil the conditions Moses had recorded:
Psalm 82:2-4 (KJV): "2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked."
The word "gods" in this context then, is used for judges in Israel who acted on behalf of God in administering the Law. These particular judges in Psalm 82 would be removed from their office because of their failure to live up to the standard required "able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness" Exodus 18:21 (KJV).

Comparing the treatment of the word "elohim' in KJV and ASV usually translated "God", shows that the translators had difficulty with this word "elohim" when used for the judges. Christ's comment tells us that "he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came". This is a unique Hebrew idiom, difficult to transfer into our language, because we tend to use the word "God" only in an absolute sense.
Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): "8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour."
Exodus 22:8-9 (1901 ASV): "8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor."

Jesus uses this example from Psalm 82 to reveal his relationship with his Father. While the judges had failed, Jesus had been faithful to the word, revealing a unity with God. Jesus claims his unity with the Father is because God has sanctified him, and has sent him. Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

[shunyadragon]

John 10:34-35 (KJV): "34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"

Jesus is quoting from Psalm 82:6, but some background to this usage of "gods" may help. Jesus was speaking of certain people who were appointed as judges in Israel. This is based upon Exodus 18:13-27 where Moses appointed these judges. They had received the word of God, and they were supposed to be impartial in their judgment, using God's laws correctly.
Exodus 18:21-22 (KJV): "21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: 22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee."

The judges were called "gods" because they judged on God's behalf::
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): "And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment."
Deuteronomy 1:16-17 (KJV): "16 And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him. 17 Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it."
The judges were meant to administer God's words without respect of persons or taking bribes.

Psalm 82 where Jesus is quoting from, is speaking out against certain judges, who had failed in their responsibility to fulfil the conditions Moses had recorded:
Psalm 82:2-4 (KJV): "2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked."
The word "gods" in this context then, is used for judges in Israel who acted on behalf of God in administering the Law. These particular judges in Psalm 82 would be removed from their office because of their failure to live up to the standard required "able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness" Exodus 18:21 (KJV).

Comparing the treatment of the word "elohim' in KJV and ASV usually translated "God", shows that the translators had difficulty with this word "elohim" when used for the judges. Christ's comment tells us that "he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came". This is a unique Hebrew idiom, difficult to transfer into our language, because we tend to use the word "God" only in an absolute sense.
Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): "8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour."
Exodus 22:8-9 (1901 ASV): "8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor."

Jesus uses this example from Psalm 82 to reveal his relationship with his Father. While the judges had failed, Jesus had been faithful to the word, revealing a unity with God. Jesus claims his unity with the Father is because God has sanctified him, and has sent him. Jesus is the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor
I am glad you posted these quotes, which give a more detailed treatment of the nature of the messiah, Son of God that agrees better with John 5.

I am interested in how 'endy' and others respond to this.

Could you go into detail how you view the trinity?

[TrevorL]

Howdy Shunyadragon,

Greetings. In response to your question, I believe that there is one God, the Father 1 Corinthians 8:6. Jesus is the Son of God by his birth Luke 1:35, by his holy character and moral glory John 1:14, 10:30-36, 20:31,32 Matthew 16:17-19 and by his resurrection Romans 1:1-4. God has now made Jesus both Lord and Christ Acts 2:36.

God revealed himself in the OT as "I will be (or become) who I will be (or become)", or in the third person as Yhwh "He will be (or become)". Yhwh has now become the Saviour, Yah-oshua or Jesus, through the birth, the holy and sinless life, the crucifixion, death and resurrection of His Son.

In the OT God is revealed as Yhwh, the Lord of heaven and earth Psalm 8:1-3, but now with the birth of His Son, God in the NT is revealed as the Father, the Lord of heaven and earth Matthew 11:25-26, and He has now given all power to His Son Matthew 11:27, Psalm 8:6. God the Father has also become His Son, and as such we can address Jesus as "my Lord and my God". Jesus in the role of Lord and burden bearer invites us to come unto him, because in him is comfort, rest, forgiveness from our sins and he will guide and lead us Matthew 11:28-30.

He invites us therefore to address God as "Our Father" Matthew 6:9, and all those who believe in the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ and are baptised into Christ become adopted Sons of God Acts 8:5,12, Galatians 3:26-29, 4:4-7. Salvation is now only through the name of Jesus Acts 4:10-12 because Jesus is the development of the name of Yhwh. God is calling others to become part of this name Acts 15:14, and this name will be complete when God is "all and in all" at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

We encounter syllogisms like the following: "God is king, Jesus is king, therefore Jesus is ..." and "God is shepherd, Jesus is shepherd, therefore Jesus is ...", the answer to the third line is Jesus is the Son of God. As proof of this, God is shepherd to David and all of Israel and to us
Psalm 23:1 (KJV): "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.",
but he also chose David to shepherd his people:
Psalm 78:70-72 (KJV): "70 He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: 71 From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance. 72 So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands."
Also God alone is king, and when the people sought a king:
1 Samuel 8:7 (KJV): "And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them."
But it pleased God after he had removed Saul to raise up David to sit upon the throne of the LORD 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Luke 1:32,33, Acts 13:22,23.

Kind regards
Trevor

[TrevorL]

In the 2nd post of this thread, an attempt was made to establish some of the range of the OT word "Elohim", translated into English by "God", "god", "gods", "judges" and "angels" according to the paticular context. This subject is important because the OT usage does have a bearing on some of the NT teaching on this subject, as shown for instance in John 10:30-36. This helps us to understand how we can call Jesus both the Son of God and "my Lord and my God".

The word Elohim is found in Genesis 1:26, and there is a plurality of persons involved.
Genesis 1:26 (KJV): "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

There are many suggestions concerning this plurality, but the Scriptures seem to support that Genesis 1:26 is speaking of God and the angels. When David speaks of the New Creation, he draws upon the language of the Edenic creation.
Psalm 8:4-6 (KJV): "4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"
When David says "For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels", he appears to be commenting on Genesis 1:26 (KJV): "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". The word "God" in Genesis 1:26 is "Elohim" and the same word has been translated as "angels" in Psalm 8:5 in the KJV. Man was not made equal to the angels at his creation in Eden, as this is still a future prospect
Luke 20:35-36 (KJV): "35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

As we noted in Post #2 with "Elohim" with respect to the "judges", the translators have had trouble again selecting the correct English word. In Psalm 8:5, they use "angels" in the KJV, but in the following "God".
Psalm 8:5 (1901 ASV): "For thou hast made him but little lower than God, And crownest him with glory and honor.
Psalm 8:5 (RSV): "Yet thou hast made him little less than God, and dost crown him with glory and honor."

When Paul quotes Psalm 8:5 he uses the word angels, thus confirming that David understood Genesis 1:26 to include the angels. The ASV and RSV seem to be remiss in not recognising the Holy Spirit endorsement by Paul that the word "elohim" in the context of Psalm 8:5 has the meaning of "angels" and this helps us understand Genesis 1:26, 3:5,22. The following also shows the difference of the ASV and RSV with their OT and NT translations.
Hebrews 2:7 (KJV): "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:"
Hebrews 2:7 (1901 ASV): "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:"
Hebrews 2:7 (RSV): "Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor,"
Thus the word "Elohim" can speak of God and the angels in a particular context, as evidenced from Psalm 8:5, and this appears to be the explanation of the plurality in Genesis 1:26. Another theme that could be considered from Paul's application of Psalm 8 in Hebrews 2 is that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

[barryrob]

If we take John 10:30 in isolation, we could speculate as to what Jesus is stating.
John 10:30 (KJV): "I and my Father are one."
But Jesus leaves us in no doubt, because in v.36 he:explains that in John 10:30 he claimed to be the Son of God:
John 10:36 (KJV): "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
He is the Son of God revealing the character of the Father, and God the Father sanctified Him and sent Him into the world..

The usage of this term "one" in John 10:30 is clearly defined in the following and it also uses the same words "sanctify" and "sent into the world" that occur in John 10:36 to define Jesus as the Son of God.
John 17:11,14-23 (KJV): "11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The unity between God the Father and the Son of God is to be shared with those who allow the word of God to sanctify them. Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV): "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Kind regards
Trevor
“ONE” thing, as in harmony or unity, or person as one being?



John 10:30 . . .I and the Father are one.”



John 17:20-26 . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”



1 John 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we are reporting also to YOU, that YOU too may be having a sharing with us. Furthermore, this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.



1 John 3:24 Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us.



John 17:20-26 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”





In the above we see that “one” refers to a unity and not as suggested by some as one person as not only are Jesus and Jehovah said to be “one” but also Jesus disciples are INCLUDED in that “one” as John 17:20 say “those putting faith in me” so the oneness spoken of included all Jesus faithful followers and not just him and his Father.



Just a few thoughts
Barryrob

[Krusader]

“ONE” thing, as in harmony or unity, or person as one being?



John 10:30 . . .I and the Father are one.”



John 17:20-26 . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”



1 John 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we are reporting also to YOU, that YOU too may be having a sharing with us. Furthermore, this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.



1 John 3:24 Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us.



John 17:20-26 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”





In the above we see that “one” refers to a unity and not as suggested by some as one person as not only are Jesus and Jehovah said to be “one” but also Jesus disciples are INCLUDED in that “one” as John 17:20 say “those putting faith in me” so the oneness spoken of included all Jesus faithful followers and not just him and his Father.



Just a few thoughts
Barryrob
Barryrob, Christians don't believe that the Father and the Son are One Person, but separate, individual Persons. However, if Jesus was the Archangel Michael, as your organization claims, he would be very out-of-line saying that he was one with God.

[TrevorL]

Howdy barryrob and Crusader,

Greetings. I agree with you Barryrob that Jesus is the Son of God, and I was interested in your linking 1 John "this sharing of ours" and "union" with John 17 and John 10:30. The words are different, but nevertheless help to explain John 10:30. But looking at your comment Crusader.

Crusader wrote: "Barryrob, Christians don't believe that the Father and the Son are One Person, but separate, individual Persons. However, if Jesus was the Archangel Michael, as your organization claims, he would be very out-of-line saying that he was one with God. I believe that there is one God, the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. Concerning Michael, I believe that Michael the Archangel is the Name-bearing Angel in Genesis 18, Exodus 3. This Angel was used by God to deliver Israel from Egypt, and continued in the role of caring for the nation of Israel.
Exodus 23:20-21 (KJV): "20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him."


When Jesus came he took over this role:
Matthew 11:25-27 (KJV): "25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
Hebrews 1:4-6 (KJV): "4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."


Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): "8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

The role of Michael is fulfilled in a much greater, and more effective way by the Lord Jesus Christ, Daniel 12:1-4, Zechariah 3:1-12, Jude 9.


The following reveals that the character and holiness of Jesus is not derived from a previous existence, but because God was His Father and Mary, the descendant of David, was His mother.
Isaiah 11:1-5 (KJV): "1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins."

Luke 1:30-35 (KJV): "30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."


Luke 2:40,52 (KJV): "40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."


John 1:14 (KJV): "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
This begettal in John 1:14 is the same as described in Luke 1:35. Jesus is the Son of God.


Kind regards
Trevor

[PioneerSDA]

Dear Trevor,

I hope you are doing well. You said that Jesus became the Son of God at His eartly birth and you don't believe that Jesus was divinely born in eternity before anything was ever created than how could have "God sent His only begotten Son into the world." 1st John 4:9

[PioneerSDA]

Dear CRUSADER

Every orignization that believes that Michael is the name for the preincarnate Christ does not believe that Jesus is created. Michael is Hebrew for He who is like God and only the only begotten Son of God is the only being in the universe who is exactly like God because he was born from the Father in eternity as "the express image of His person" Hebrews 1:3 K.J.V. and express image comes from a greek word "charakter {khar-ak-tare'}" which means exact copy or precise reproduction. Jesus really is the Son of God and has the same divine nature of His Father. Archangel means ruler of the angels in greek and in Joshua 5:13-15 the Hebrew equivalent for that is "Captain of the LORD's hosts" where the Son of God is being worshiped in the Old Testament.

Do you hear that TrevorL. He was even the Son of God even in the Old Testament. You claim to be explaining Hebrew thought with your unbiblical thinking but you don't even know what Hebrews believe. There is One Yahweh and His Divine Son male offspring younger than himself who he gave birth to in eternity and He
is seperate from Himself and the Father sent His Son. God didn't send himself.

[PioneerSDA]

Dear BARRYROB.

They are One because they have the same mind. Please let me clarify. I believe TREVORL might take this out of context. He believes that the Father came down here so He could pretend to be His own Son and that's how He believes they have the same spirit but that is unbiblical. The Bible says many times that the Christians of that day had "one mind" like Jesus prayed for but they still were all individual people and they still had individual minds. So does God and His Son have the same mind and they are one. "..no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27 We can never know Yahweh. He is infinite he has an infinite love and an infinite self sacrificing character. But Christ could know Him and reveal because he was born from him in eternity as "the express image of his person" Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for "express image" is charakter {khar-ak-tare'} which means exact copy or precise reproduction. He is the real, true, literal, only first begotten and only begotten Son of God born in eternity equal in nature to himself. Even though He is not God He is still equal in nature to Him as Philipians 2:6 and John 5:18 and this is why the Jews killed Him because they knew that the Messiah was the Son of God in the way they would never be even though they called God His Father. Have a great day.

[TrevorL]

Howdy PioneerSDA,

Greetings. PioneerSDA wrote: "You said that Jesus became the Son of God at His eartly birth and you don't believe that Jesus was divinely born in eternity before anything was ever created than how could have "God sent His only begotten Son into the world." 1st John 4:9" A similar use of words also describes Jesus sending the Apostles into the world.
John 17:18 (KJV): "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

Kind regards
Trevor

[shunyadragon]

Dear BARRYROB.

They are One because they have the same mind. Please let me clarify. I believe TREVORL might take this out of context. He believes that the Father came down here so He could pretend to be His own Son and that's how He believes they have the same spirit but that is unbiblical. The Bible says many times that the Christians of that day had "one mind" like Jesus prayed for but they still were all individual people and they still had individual minds. So does God and His Son have the same mind and they are one. "..no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him." Matthew 11:27 We can never know Yahweh. He is infinite he has an infinite love and an infinite self sacrificing character. But Christ could know Him and reveal because he was born from him in eternity as "the express image of his person" Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for "express image" is charakter {khar-ak-tare'} which means exact copy or precise reproduction. He is the real, true, literal, only first begotten and only begotten Son of God born in eternity equal in nature to himself. Even though He is not God He is still equal in nature to Him as Philipians 2:6 and John 5:18 and this is why the Jews killed Him because they knew that the Messiah was the Son of God in the way they would never be even though they called God His Father. Have a great day.

One glaring problem with this right off, is the Jews did not kill Jesus. He was convicted in a Roman Court of law, because he claimed to be the King of the Jews. The charge was sedition and rebellion against Rome. He was cruxified under Roman law and guards.

In John chapter 5, as in the other gospels, Jesus makes it clear he is not equal to or to be considered God.

[endy]

If we take John 10:30 in isolation, we could speculate as to what Jesus is stating.
John 10:30 (KJV): "I and my Father are one."
But Jesus leaves us in no doubt, because in v.36 he:explains that in John 10:30 he claimed to be the Son of God:
John 10:36 (KJV): "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
He is the Son of God revealing the character of the Father, and God the Father sanctified Him and sent Him into the world..

The usage of this term "one" in John 10:30 is clearly defined in the following and it also uses the same words "sanctify" and "sent into the world" that occur in John 10:36 to define Jesus as the Son of God.
John 17:11,14-23 (KJV): "11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The unity between God the Father and the Son of God is to be shared with those who allow the word of God to sanctify them. Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 3:1-3 (KJV): "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Kind regards
Trevor

HMMMMMMM

Trevol started fromJoh10:30

May I start from john10:7

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

What is He saying Jesus I am the door nobody can reach the Spirit of God but through believing of His flesh we can know God the Spirit.

Through the cross,through the works of flesh, through the works of Jesus blood we can know God the spirit which is inside the flesh.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Adam was barred from Eden due its sin.But Jesus through his flesh He redeemed us to the most Holy place that is Eden.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Who barred Adam from entering Eden?

The Cheribums

But the Cherubims didn`t bar Jesus to enter the Most Holy Place.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Here I do have boldness that I can enter the heavenly Jerusalem through the blood of Jesus.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Trevol stated John 10:36 as one evidence to claim Jesus as the Son of God. This is right. But you missed to claim Jesus was in his father & his father was is him.

This can be real if only if the Spirit of God was inside the Flesh & vice versa.

Since John 10:38 says
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

As to JOhn 17:11 ,14-23 the answer is the samething as above.But what I would like to mention is "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are."

What is holy Father `s name? He was Jesus. Act4:12
We become one with the spirit & flesh of God through his name & that is Jesus.

Phi 4:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.