Evolution People

[Jack777]

evolution and people



This is in answer to the question from rogero. rogero wondered if Scripture says that God evolved mankind in Genesis.

No

Can it be interpreted that way since God took dirt from the earth and made man, adam. If you say that yes, that is what it means, then there are some problems that need to be addressed. Genesis presents the title of mankind along with the title of God as Creator. That personalizes adam to Adam. In fact the title of the first Adam is Living Creature-Alive; Breath-filled Being.


Paul refers to the first Adam as being a living soul, same meaning only in Greek. The Bible uses this term the last time in Revelation where all living creatures, all breath-filled beings die. The restoration of the earth described in Genesis begins with all the breath-filled beings filling the sea when God created them as He restored the earth after a catastrophe. The Bible ends with all the breath-filled beings ceasing to live after a catastrophe.

The first account of creating adam as male and female does not use the title, the next accounting does. There are a lot of implications to consider. People were created. Sea life was created. The use of the title precludes evolution of people. The significance of the message in the context of the whole counsel of God precludes evolution of the adam with the title. Plus, God takes the rib of the first adam and makes a woman specifically for him to be one with. The restoration-destruction message, first of time of this aion (olam) and the last of time of this aion (olam) has more to it than just evolution versus creation. Both are specific acts of God. The YahwehElohiym is actively presented as Creator in both the first and last of the aion (olam).

I have opinions about all of this and would welcome others.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.* (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=64#_ftn1)

Genesis 1:26-28

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.*


Genesis 2:7

HaYahwehElohiym—the first time this title is used

AdamChayNephesh—the first time this title is used


21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.*

Genesis 1:21

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.*

Genesis 1:24

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.*


Genesis 2:19


10And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.*

Genesis 9:10-16

44For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thingthat creepeth upon the earth. 45For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. 46This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten. *

Leviticus 11:44:47

[rogero]

evolution and people



This is in answer to the question from rogero. rogero wondered if Scripture says that God evolved mankind in Genesis.

No

Can it be interpreted that way since God took dirt from the earth and made man, adam. If you say that yes, that is what it means, then there are some problems that need to be addressed. Genesis presents the title of mankind along with the title of God as Creator. That personalizes adam to Adam. In fact the title of the first Adam is Living Creature-Alive; Breath-filled Being.


Paul refers to the first Adam as being a living soul, same meaning only in Greek. The Bible uses this term the last time in Revelation where all living creatures, all breath-filled beings die. The restoration of the earth described in Genesis begins with all the breath-filled beings filling the sea when God created them as He restored the earth after a catastrophe. The Bible ends with all the breath-filled beings ceasing to live after a catastrophe.

The first account of creating adam as male and female does not use the title, the next accounting does. There are a lot of implications to consider. People were created. Sea life was created. The use of the title precludes evolution of people. The significance of the message in the context of the whole counsel of God precludes evolution of the adam with the title. Plus, God takes the rib of the first adam and makes a woman specifically for him to be one with. The restoration-destruction message, first of time of this aion (olam) and the last of time of this aion (olam) has more to it than just evolution versus creation. Both are specific acts of God. The YahwehElohiym is actively presented as Creator in both the first and last of the aion (olam).

I have opinions about all of this and would welcome others.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.* (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=64#_ftn1)

Genesis 1:26-28

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.*


Genesis 2:7

HaYahwehElohiym—the first time this title is used

AdamChayNephesh—the first time this title is used


21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.*

Genesis 1:21

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.*

Genesis 1:24

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.*


Genesis 2:19


10And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.*

Genesis 9:10-16

44For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thingthat creepeth upon the earth. 45For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. 46This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten. *

Leviticus 11:44:47
There is an adage that quantity does not substitute for quantity. Do you think that 11+ open threads are more than enough?

To wit, repeating the word "create" in blue font does not answer the question as to HOW God creates. This is the problem I have with all literalist readings of Genesis. I read it myself and I see a basic theological story, and I envy those more spiritual folks like you who seem to know all the answers.

TEs believe that God creates. We are just considering, via the evidence that we believe God allows us to study in nature, HOW God creates. It's as simple as that. What's your problem with understanding that?

P.S. I don't think you've addressed this before, although it could be in one of your numerous recent eruptions of recently expressed yet long surpressed opinions, but please -- please -- explain how you think there could be a billion+ year old biosphere with no biological evolution?

R

[kofh2u]

Hello jack777,

You seem to feel that using a logical approach to undermining TE will work to support the metaphysical interpretion you insist upon.

As I said before, we ought to assume an evermore educated future audience will evaluate your point of view, in competition with TE.
Mythology would be more akin to what you propose, while secular scientific understandings would complement TE.

I am NOT ridiculing the orthodox Christian understandings.

I AM critical of the intolerance, the arrogant superiority, the attempted censorship, and the certitude orthodoxy prescribes to their "guesses" about meanings.

If you offer up that man was made of the dirt of the earth as if that is somehow different from essentially the same idea, chemistry, fine. But, the simplistic metaphysical induedo serves no purpose better than TE which agrees, Adam was made from the same common atoms found in the "dust of the earth."

What I am saying here is, that you repeat century old ways of understanding the bible, and you resist acceptable modern ways others might also appreciate it.
In this, though, you oppose the most acceptable TE interpretation merely on the grounds that it is new, not the traditional.
TE does not deny God the glory for Creation.

Are you not evidencing faith in Faith, rather than faith in Jesus as the expected messiah of Truth?

Dan. 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words (of the Old Testament), and seal the book (read by many concerned with death and hell), even to (2K4AD), the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, (traveling freely by land, sea, and even air), and knowledge (in the Information Age) shall be increased.

[geochron]

There is an adage that quantity does not substitute for quantity. Do you think that 11+ open threads are more than enough?



I suspect he has 766- to go.

[rogero]

Correction: I meant "quantity does not substitute for quality."

This new Tweb edit time limit feature can be annoying at times...

[Tickle Me Goody]

evolution and people
This is in answer to the question from rogero. rogero wondered if Scripture says that God evolved mankind in Genesis.

No

Can it be interpreted that way since God took dirt from the earth and made man, adam. If you say that yes, that is what it means, then there are some problems that need to be addressed. Genesis presents the title of mankind along with the title of God as Creator. That personalizes adam to Adam. In fact the title of the first Adam is Living Creature-Alive; Breath-filled Being. If you insist on literalism. then Adam was a sand or mud creature. As Tennessee Earnie Ford sang:

"Now, some people say a man's made out of mud,
But a poor man's made out of muscle and blood,
Muscle and blood, skin and bones,
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong."

Was Adam made of mud or was he made of muscle and blood and skin and bones? An evolutionary man (Genesis 1) or a sandman (Genesis 2)?

GG

[Jack777]

I am posting not to undermine anything really. If the Bible is not good enough because it is centuries old, then that is your view not mine. If evolution is all true and you have a big bunch O' Proof, lay it on here folks, lay it on here.

So, the only way TE is true if I stay shut up?

So change the words of the Bible and that will make it alright for you???

That guy searching for the "All" tore out pages that bugged him.

I posted before and I will post again:

Isaiah 24:5

"change the ordinance..."

Well, what do you get?

Another day older and deeper in debt.

[Tickle Me Goody]

I am posting not to undermine anything really. If the Bible is not good enough because it is centuries old, then that is your view not mine. If evolution is all true and you have a big bunch O' Proof, lay it on here folks, lay it on here.

So, the only way TE is true if I stay shut up?

So change the words of the Bible and that will make it alright for you???

That guy searching for the "All" tore out pages that bugged him.

I posted before and I will post again:

Isaiah 24:5

"change the ordinance..."

Well, what do you get?

Another day older and deeper in debt.
But you ignored my question. Was Adam made of dirt or was he not?

GG

[grmorton]

I am posting not to undermine anything really. If the Bible is not good enough because it is centuries old, then that is your view not mine. If evolution is all true and you have a big bunch O' Proof, lay it on here folks, lay it on here.

So, the only way TE is true if I stay shut up?

So change the words of the Bible and that will make it alright for you???

That guy searching for the "All" tore out pages that bugged him.

I posted before and I will post again:

Isaiah 24:5

"change the ordinance..."

Well, what do you get?

Another day older and deeper in debt.


The quality of anti-evolutionary postings here is decidedly dropping.

[kofh2u]

But you ignored my question. Was Adam made of dirt or was he not?

GG


"Dust."

The smallest unit of earthly matter, atoms, seems very much true in oir secular world today. There is hardly a need to read some metaphysical magic into this verse any longer.

Certainly, a wierd idea in the not so ancient times of only two centuries past, to understand that we are, indeed, "pasted" together, atom by atom, cell by cell. Who would have believed such a secularly clear fact even in Galilleo's day. But, the Atomism of today makes very simple sense by reading the scripture as literature, not literally.

This is the essence of the Theistic Evolutionary Conceptualization, TEC.

[technomage]

I am posting not to undermine anything really.
Yet you are trying to undermine anyone's faith who does not agree with you. You keep insisting that those who hold to TE are "changing the ordinance," when nothing could be further from the truth.

If you are against people "changing the ordinance," then you must condemn the author of Matthew, who took a prophecy specifically intended for Ahaz and changed it to mean Christ. (Isa 7:14) By your logic, you would be forced to condemn him, because he "changed the ordinance," in that he increased the understanding of a passage.

You hold that those who keep a TE understanding are somehow perverting scripture, but what is actually happening is that you are setting yourself up in judgement of your fellow Christians.

Justin

[AllDay]

I am posting not to undermine anything really.
You're saying that with a straight face? Have you read your own posts?

If evolution is all true and you have a big bunch O' Proof, lay it on here folks, lay it on here.
Stop pretending that you would read it if they did. There are very few subjects that are written about more than the one you're asking for "proof of". If you wanted to read the "proof", it'd be very easy to find.

So, the only way TE is true if I stay shut up?
Yes. The only thing preventing millions from sprinting towards TE is your battering of threads (a bunch in a short amount of time). The clarity, nonredundancy, and convincing information in each and every post your write is literally keeping TE in check. To think you do it for free is amazing. :blush:

So change the words of the Bible and that will make it alright for you???
From what I understand, the words stay the same ... the meaning in interpreted differently ... namely the "literalness".

----------------------------

I have the feeling your numerous threads are having the exact opposite affect from the one you envisioned. It is something you might want to consider.

[Tickle Me Goody]

"Dust."

The smallest unit of earthly matter, atoms, seems very much true in oir secular world today. There is hardly a need to read some metaphysical magic into this verse any longer.

Certainly, a wierd idea in the not so ancient times of only two centuries past, to understand that we are, indeed, "pasted" together, atom by atom, cell by cell. Who would have believed such a secularly clear fact even in Galilleo's day. But, the Atomism of today makes very simple sense by reading the scripture as literature, not literally.

This is the essence of the Theistic Evolutionary Conceptualization, TEC.
Thanks.

I was hoping that Jack777 would reply also.

GG

[kofh2u]

Thanks.

I was hoping that Jack777 would reply also.

GG

If jack777 states his take without reference to TE I believe he is not to be faulted. Different strokes for different folks, sort of.

And, conversely, TE has no bone to pick with ancient, metaphysical once totally accepted interpretations, IMO.

The point is that organized groups in the religious community need stop the socially destructive faith in Faith. Such historically even "orthodoxy" translates to belief in a particular interpretation. It serves priest oods while stagnating the actual works of the right spirit of Christian worship. But, at the same time, it at first competes with the objective of finding faith in Christ.

[Tickle Me Goody]

If jack777 states his take without reference to TE I believe he is not to be faulted. Different strokes for different folks, sort of.

And, conversely, TE has no bone to pick with ancient, metaphysical once totally accepted interpretations, IMO.

The point is that organized groups in the religious community need stop the socially destructive faith in Faith. Such historically even "orthodoxy" translates to belief in a particular interpretation. It serves priest oods while stagnating the actual works of the right spirit of Christian worship. But, at the same time, it at first competes with the objective of finding faith in Christ.Jack777 insists on posting his own literalist interpretation and then faulting others for not accepting it. I therefore wish to press the point about his literalism. Is it literal or is it not? Was Adam "dust" or was he flesh and bone? I think it is clear that one cannot take "dust" as literal. Once that is established, one has to say what are the bounds on a non-literal interpretation and why.

As I have said in other places, my daughter is a YEC but she does not fault other views. Jack777 does and that is cause for concern IMO.

I am going on a trip. Please hold my place in line.

GG

[Jack777]

I am sorry I did not answer your question goodygoody, I think I liked the Tennessee Ernie Ford thing too much.

Sixteen Tons, wow. It was just a couple of years before that song became famous that coal miners no longer were paid in script instead of US dollars.

Yes, I think God took dust and made man. The word for dust in Hebrew might be explored before anyone goes ballistic.

I try to leave my threads alone more than I should maybe.

Everyone, I am not questioning your Faith. That is not it.

It is a bit ironic that the snide comments and "common" understanding conveyed by some that people like Jorge or kofu2 are less than the rest of everyone here on the Tweb is fine and not seen to be dismissive or hurtful. I understand that it is easy to justify that sort of thing. I am challenging BELIEF, which is not the same thing as Faith. kofu2 tried pointing out that being nasty and things like that are meant to hurt.

Anyway, not being a compleat idiot, I notice that being hurtful is considered a fine thing. It is like in Psalms where he says one who does these things justifies it by saying that he is only shooting arrows into the air, after all, who knows where they will land? I am not going to claim randomly shooting arrows in the air. I am point blank arguing and I do not intend to hurt people or make another Christian stumble. I notice some people assume I am like a YEC or I am like this or that and think that I am a certain way and do not "hear" what I am saying. That is fine. In any event accept this as a disclaimer that I am not trying to and hop I do not make anyone feel their Faith is any certain way, as I consider Faith a gift from God you have. Beliefs are another matters.