Is Christianity Dead?

[NormATive]

Did I get your attention?

No, no. Wait! It's not like that.

I'm serious. I think it's time to put a fork in it - it's done.

There are so many obvious problems with "traditional" Christianity, that it is at the point of calling the question. It is no longer glorifying G-d. There have been so many discoveries in science and archeology that make taking the Bible seriously a dubious undertaking at best - a waste of time at worst.

I can count on one hand the number of people I know who call themselves Christians (and, having grown up in the x-ian church - that's allllllotttta folks!) who I feel ACTUALLY believe all the stories of miracles, healings, revivifications and revelations.

That ain't much.

These folks aren't hard to miss. They're "whacked out" on Jesus. They spend every waking moment passing out Bible tracts, "witnessing" to their friends, or living in huts in the jungles of Africa trying to convert the heathens.

I mean, if you REALLY believe that I and countless hordes of peoples will GO TO HELL if we don't ACCEPT JESUS INTO OUR HEARTS as our PERSONAL SAVIOUR, then what the h-e-double toothpicks are you doing spending precious moments on Internet fora arguing over stupid minutiae about demons and tribulations and preterist or pretrib, or dunking / sprinkling or whether Joey dips or dunks?!!??

Now, why do you suppose the VAST MAJORITY of Christians are just like you? Content to go about their workaday lives, attending nice, comfy churches with nice, comfy, padded pews, and a really rockin' "Praise Team," a house in the Burbs, two cats and a dog with little Buffy and Jody in nice, little Christian day schools. Where they learn about Jesus through talking vegetables.

"By their fruits you will know them."

What are these fruits?

Greed, gluttony, shiny, white teeth?

No, the Christian church today - the one I know VERY WELL - doesn't REALLY believe that people will go to hell if they don't "hear and believe." They don't REALLY believe that they have the power to "cast out demons" and heal the sick IN HIS NAME. They don't REALLY believe that Jesus IS G-d in the flesh.

If you did, you wouldn't be in this forum right now.

Now, on the other hand, if you disocver what I have - that the Bible is a book of moral teachings ABOUT RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY, then going about your workaday life takes on NEW MEANING. It means that HOW we live our lives is important - not what exclusive TRUTH we know.

It's what we learn about love and trust and respect for humanity that makes the Bible a worthy endeavour.

I know this is going to be unacceptable for many. I am saying that Jesus was "just a great man."

Did you know that according to the Jewish faith, that is EXACTLY what the MESSIAH is supposed to be? A great MAN. According to scripture and tradition, the messiah would usher in an era of peace, and restore the Davidic throne.

Now, yeah, it's possible that for eight thousand years the Jews have gotten it all wrong, but I think they've pretty well fleshed out the whole idea by now. [get it - fleshed out :lmbo: ]

But, whether or not you're buying any of this, - and, I don't expect anyone to be convinced by MY ramblings - don't you think it's better to live your life in a way that makes the planet a better place for your having been around? You know; love your neighbour as your self, feed the hungry, shun greed and avarice, practice hospitality, etc..., as opposed to a formulaic, ritual "understanding" of TRUE DOCTRINE?

I mean, if you TRULY BELIEVE that in order to receive salvation, all you have to do is "invite Jesus into your heart," then whatta ya' waitin' for!? There's a billion Chinese who have NEVER HEARD THIS!!

Go, go, go!!!!

But, if you believe like me that salvation (personal and communal) is something that comes from within - guided perhaps by religious ideals and ideas - then, you can join the millions who are experiencing a new expression of Jesus' teachings.

We are tossing the old baggage of superstition and magic. No more linguistic and mental gymnastics needed to believe that Moses wrote of his own death and burial, that 400,000 people crossed the desert without one shred of evidence they were ever there, that an entire town's dead citizens climbed out of their graves, that two disciples - no, two women - no, well, whatever - found Jesus' empty tomb - no, empty, but with angels, no - whatever. Well, you get the idea.

Once we understand the Bible as liturgy, it all falls into place. Then, we can focus on the lessons of the Bible, not the dogma. Further, we then become free to learn from other religion's myths and stories - parables and liturgy. We can cease viewing science and discovery as challenges to our faith, and embrace them as the unfolding mystery of life on this big, ol rock.

Consider it the clearing of the dark glass to put it in religious terms.

Thoughts? Discussion?

NORM

[guacamole]

Did I get your attention?

Jes.


No, no. Wait! It's not like that.


I know what you mean. I can still think yer sexy and not swing that way.


I'm serious. I think it's time to put a fork in it - it's done.


Did you stick the fork right in the middle, and if so, did it come out clean? Maybe just a minute or two more...


There are so many obvious problems with "traditional" Christianity, that it is at the point of calling the question. It is no longer glorifying G-d. There have been so many discoveries in science and archeology that make taking the Bible seriously a dubious undertaking at best - a waste of time at worst.

I don't think the discoveries in science and archaeology make the Bible dubious whatsoever. I read the bible for impact it can have on my life, not for the impact it can have on my factual understanding of science and archaeology. In that, it is a very serious undertaking indeed.


I can count on one hand the number of people I know who call themselves Christians (and, having grown up in the x-ian church - that's allllllotttta folks!) who I feel ACTUALLY believe all the stories of miracles, healings, revivifications and revelations.

Interesting. I fellowship with at least 100 people every Sunday who actually believe all the stories of miracles, healings, revivifications and revelations.

In anycase, whether or not the Bible is true doesn't hinge on it's popularity.


That ain't much.


Yer not the one they call "Eight-Fingers" are ya?


These folks aren't hard to miss. They're "whacked out" on Jesus. They spend every waking moment passing out Bible tracts, "witnessing" to their friends, or living in huts in the jungles of Africa trying to convert the heathens.


LOL. Yes. You are correct. Like in any endeavor, there are some seriously dedicated folk out there. Thank God.


I mean, if you REALLY believe that I and countless hordes of peoples will GO TO HELL if we don't ACCEPT JESUS INTO OUR HEARTS as our PERSONAL SAVIOUR, then what the h-e-double toothpicks are you doing spending precious moments on Internet fora arguing over stupid minutiae about demons and tribulations and preterist or pretrib, or dunking / sprinkling or whether Joey dips or dunks?!!??

I dunno... because it's fun? Beats sitting on the porch and spittin' chaw into a pop can.


Now, why do you suppose the VAST MAJORITY of Christians are just like you? Content to go about their workaday lives, attending nice, comfy churches with nice, comfy, padded pews, and a really rockin' "Praise Team," a house in the Burbs, two cats and a dog with little Buffy and Jody in nice, little Christian day schools. Where they learn about Jesus through talking vegetables.


Trust me when I tell you this but the vast majority of Christians are not just like me. Thank God.

Seriously. Yes, there is some complacency in the church, especially the American Church.


"By their fruits you will know them."

What are these fruits?

Greed, gluttony, shiny, white teeth?


Geez. Get all prophetic and brimstone on us whydoncha?


No, the Christian church today - the one I know VERY WELL - doesn't REALLY believe that people will go to hell if they don't "hear and believe." They don't REALLY believe that they have the power to "cast out demons" and heal the sick IN HIS NAME. They don't REALLY believe that Jesus IS G-d in the flesh.

If you did, you wouldn't be in this forum right now.


Heh.


Now, on the other hand, if you disocver what I have - that the Bible is a book of moral teachings ABOUT RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHY, then going about your workaday life takes on NEW MEANING. It means that HOW we live our lives is important - not what exclusive TRUTH we know.


You sound down right Evangelical right now! Nice!


It's what we learn about love and trust and respect for humanity that makes the Bible a worthy endeavour.


I would say that yes, that is a part of it. Not all of it, by any means, but a part of it...


I know this is going to be unacceptable for many. I am saying that Jesus was "just a great man."


AUGH! MY EARS ARE BURNING AND FALLING OFF!!!

No. Not really. Just kidding. It doesn't bother me for you to say that. I know it bothers a lot of people when I say that Jesus is God in the flesh. So, no worries...


Did you know that according to the Jewish faith, that is EXACTLY what the MESSIAH is supposed to be? A great MAN. According to scripture and tradition, the messiah would usher in an era of peace, and restore the Davidic throne.


Yep. True, at least according to Jewish tradition.


Now, yeah, it's possible that for eight thousand years the Jews have gotten it all wrong, but I think they've pretty well fleshed out the whole idea by now. [get it - fleshed out :lmbo: ]

It would be interesting to me to see you do a similar rant, cool as it was, about Judaism much like you have done about the Church.


But, whether or not you're buying any of this, - and, I don't expect anyone to be convinced by MY ramblings - don't you think it's better to live your life in a way that makes the planet a better place for your having been around? You know; love your neighbour as your self, feed the hungry, shun greed and avarice, practice hospitality, etc..., as opposed to a formulaic, ritual "understanding" of TRUE DOCTRINE?


It is better to live your life in a way that makes the world a better place than to live your life in a way that does not. It is better to live yourl ife in a way that makes the world a better place and to have you doctrine right than to simply live your life in way that just makes the world a better place. I mean, considering the fact that you even bother to criticize christianity in the first place, you are at least asserting that there is a correct doctrine, even if Christianity isn't it...


I mean, if you TRULY BELIEVE that in order to receive salvation, all you have to do is "invite Jesus into your heart," then whatta ya' waitin' for!? There's a billion Chinese who have NEVER HEARD THIS!!


Can't. Gotta go work in the Jail tomorrow. I'll settle for being a Christ to my friends and family.


Go, go, go!!!!


Sigh... guacamole remembers blissful hours frittering his life away playing starcraft...


But, if you believe like me that salvation (personal and communal) is something that comes from within - guided perhaps by religious ideals and ideas - then, you can join the millions who are experiencing a new expression of Jesus' teachings.


Would that be making the world a better place and having the correct doctrine?


We are tossing the old baggage of superstition and magic. No more linguistic and mental gymnastics needed to believe that Moses wrote of his own death and burial, that 400,000 people crossed the desert without one shred of evidence they were ever there, that an entire town's dead citizens climbed out of their graves, that two disciples - no, two women - no, well, whatever - found Jesus' empty tomb - no, empty, but with angels, no - whatever. Well, you get the idea.


Well, thank goodness you're not being gullible anymore... I mean... you have thought this out right?


Once we understand the Bible as liturgy, it all falls into place. Then, we can focus on the lessons of the Bible, not the dogma. Further, we then become free to learn from other religion's myths and stories - parables and liturgy. We can cease viewing science and discovery as challenges to our faith, and embrace them as the unfolding mystery of life on this big, ol rock.


Are you dogmatic about the Bible as liturgy. It sounds like you might be. Have considered that you've simply exchanged one set of myths for another?


Consider it the clearing of the dark glass to put it in religious terms.


?


Thoughts? Discussion?


I don't know. Let me see if I have the time.


NORM

Oh sure, fine. Make me type "Normative" through the whole stinkin' post and then abbreviate. I got yer number bub...

in some sillyness
guac.

[learning]

Hey Norm, you might like this. I was thinking that I need to get into 'obeying' more and any confusion about what I know will come clear. I believe that George MacDonald had a few things right here, you might like this quote of his.

"Our business is not to think correctly, but live truly; then first will there be a possibility of our thinking correctly. One chief cause of the amount of unbelief in the world is, that those who have seen something of the glory of Christ, set themselves to theorize concerning Him rather than to obey Him."

"Had you given yourselves to the understanding of His word that you might do it, and not to the quarrying from it of material wherewith to buttress your systems, in many a heart by this time would the name of the Lord be loved where now it remains unknown."

"...our business is not to speculate what we would do in other circumstances, but to perform the duty of the moment, the one true preparation for the duty to come."

[NormATive]

...our business is not to speculate what we would do in other circumstances, but to perform the duty of the moment, the one true preparation for the duty to come."Precisely my point.

This applies to ALL faiths, btw, just to answer quac, who I don't really think was serious about his or her answer. I don't think "true doctrine" can be found in any one religion or philosophy. I think we need the sum of the parts.

Thanks, Learning, I will C&P those quotes.

NORM

[NormATive]

I read the bible for impact it can have on my life, not for the impact it can have on my factual understanding of science and archaeology.Same here.

If I had to rely on the Bible for understanding of the natural world, I would be in serious trouble.

And, I can find at least seven entirely DIFFERENT theologies within just one book of the New Testament.

Of course, I am referring to the book of Revelation, of which a rather large percentage of the Christian population has serious doubts about. In Eastern Orthodox, for example, Revelation is only to be read and interpreted by clergy - and even then, not often.

Funny book to base a worldview, eh?

BTW, I'm not knocking Christianity, just the concept of Triumphalism. I happen to think Christian philosophy is sound thinking. Of course, much of it's core teaching is derived from Judaism, a completely different religion.

NORM

[Cyrus of Persia]

Hey, Norm!

Exept few details, i overally agree with you. Indeed: if Christians really would believe in everlasting hell, they would not spend time here speaking out their mind. Less they would spend their time in chillout places at those forums. They would use every moment of their waking life (exept when eating, etc what they need for survival) witnessing to people.

What we see is that few Christians do it. Most do witness only occasionally, or almost never.

Why's that? I think that the concept of everlasting Hell what was not in widely believed during first 5 centuries does not make sense for the most Christians. Maybe it's time to re-think the concept of Hell we have and what has almost nothing to do the teachings of the Bible.

[InChristAlways]

Hey, Norm!

Exept few details, i overally agree with you. Indeed: if Christians really would believe in everlasting hell, they would not spend time here speaking out their mind. Less they would spend their time in chillout places at those forums. They would use every moment of their waking life (exept when eating, etc what they need for survival) witnessing to people.

What we see is that few Christians do it. Most do witness only occasionally, or almost never.

Why's that? I think that the concept of everlasting Hell what was not in widely believed during first 5 centuries does not make sense for the most Christians. Maybe it's time to re-think the concept of Hell we have and what has almost nothing to do the teachings of the Bible.Good post. Christianity and the Bible are alive and well for those that understand the Bible.
For example, The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man has been misunderstood by many christians over the centuries and why I believe it is one of the most important parables in the NT and in fact is a fulfillment of Jeremiah 17 and resembles the symbolic "lake of fire" in revelation. It is trying and Testing with "principles" being burned up, the fire of not having Christ in our lives.
I love the Bible because it is a living Book and no matter how many times it is read, it comes alive more and more each time. Truly the inspired Words of God Himself. God bless.

Notice the Father is Abraham so it is about jews first off and how the gentiles would be brought into the kingdom of God. The rulers/priests of Judah(read on the curses in malachi on Judah/Levi and Deut 28)) were to be cast out of the kingdom so all of Israel could be saved.
http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm





LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'" (NKJV)

Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23). While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, [i]2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

[NeilUnreal]

Is Christianity Dead?



I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

-Jesus

-Neil

[NormATive]

I think that the concept of everlasting Hell what was not in widely believed during first 5 centuries does not make sense for the most Christians. Maybe it's time to re-think the concept of Hell we have and what has almost nothing to do the teachings of the Bible.Hi Cyrus,

Just a quick note as I finish my lunch break. Here's a really good study on the doctrine of Hell that I found a number of years ago. I've yet to find anything as thorough and well documented. It's worth the time to read through in its entirety. But, only if you really want to discover how the modern concept of hell developed. If you wish to maintain a belief in a supernatural torture chamber, don't read it.

The fact that it dates to the late nineteenth century is indicative that the fork has been in the potato a long time.

I hope to visit here again tonight after work. I see some great posts so far!

NORM

http://hellbusters.8m.com/thebiblehell.htm

[Jack777]

I am familiar with that and was interested in how Hanson viewed the translation of aion and olam. His reasoning is off a bit as I remember and he misuses the terms for ages as his proof that we do not burn forever if we end up in Hell. The Jehovah's Witnesses were on the "no Hell" bandwagon around that time among others. Odd that this comes up from time to time, but I think it was Budge that found in early Egyptian writing before they anthropomorphized everything including the kitchen sink, that the same exact idea to the "T' on eternal heat Jesus spoke of was revealed to them long ago. I would not use the reasoning of Hanson to figure Christianity is fried. The Egyptians went through similar stages rejecting the original Revelation and finally Moses shows up several thousand years later to confront the king of Egypt, the Pharoah and his magic men. Pharoah says he has never heard of Jehovah. Through Moses, Jehovah demonstrated He is real and no forks please. Why do people think Jehovah reveals Himself to us? For practice? What?

[NormATive]

I am familiar with that and was interested in how Hanson viewed the translation of aion and olam.Well, I know that olam is the Hebrew word for "of old," as it is translated in the Tanakh, or, for an indefinite period of time in modern parlance.

Aion is simply the Greek translation of olam, so it has the same meaning. Of course, we know that the ancient Jews had no word for "eternity," as the Greek aion sometimes carries. (It also has a secondary definition of "an indefinite period of time, and is where we get the English word eon.) Greeks believed in an afterworld, so, it is not surprising that translators of the King James Bible misinterpreted aion as "eternity."


His reasoning is off a bitSpecifically, where?

as I remember and he misuses the terms for ages as his proof that we do not burn forever if we end up in Hell.You should reread it, as his theses is that there is no such place as hell, so eternity vs. a long time in hell is a moot point.


The Jehovah's Witnesses were on the "no Hell" bandwagon around that time among others. Odd that this comes up from time to time, but I think it was Budge that found in early Egyptian writing before they anthropomorphized everything including the kitchen sink, that the same exact idea to the "T' on eternal heat Jesus spoke of was revealed to them long ago.The fact that more than one faith group finds an idea rational is not detrimental to the concept. There are many things about JW faith that make a lot of sense to me. Then again, there is much that doesn't.

I would not use the reasoning of Hanson to figure Christianity is fried.I don't. Only the existence of hell.


The Egyptians went through similar stages rejecting the original Revelation and finally Moses shows up several thousand years later to confront the king of Egypt, the Pharoah and his magic men. Pharoah says he has never heard of Jehovah.What revelation?

BTW, when I went on a tour of Mt. Sinai, I noticed a small, wooden sign near the crest of the final hill that said: "Moses schlepped here." :ahem:

Through Moses, Jehovah demonstrated He is real and no forks please. Why do people think Jehovah reveals Himself to us? For practice? What?There are many answers to that question, my friend. Many, many answers.

Personally, I don't think that G-d (if that's who you mean) "reveals" himself, per se, but, rather, is part of the physical makeup of the universe. Sort of the glue that holds things together and sustains all things. I know that's a bad analogy, but I like it better than Plato's ether!

What I mean to say is, that I lean to a Jewish understanding of G-d: the all-encompassing everything. So vast, there are no fitting human words or letters that can comprehend him/her/it completely.

In a section of Talmud I once read that the Tanakh, from beginning to end, is one, long, continuous name of G-d.

NORM

[NormATive]

I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

-JesusYeah, many Christians I know are very seedy.

NORM

[Cyrus of Persia]

Norm,

actually i'm reading atm Hanson's "Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hunderd Years", what can be found in "Books" section at
www.tentmaker.org
www.inclusion.ws is another nice site to check out.

And i agree with you that Hanson did not made up this translation of "Olam", or "Aionios". The Bible scholars as far as i know commonly agree about those meanings, so it's not something he made up.

Of course if i have time, i try to check out more modern books about the topic also, because Hanson (although nice writer) is the child of Englightment (you can sense it from his writing style, and also reading Albert Schweitzer's "Culture and Ethics" gives good glimpse about the atmosphere of Englightment writers). But overally Hanson has made great deal to dig into ancient writings, and if you discount his mood of writing, you can get pretty sound teaching.