technomage
February 5th 2005, 01:10 AM
At least the muslims believe Jesus did come, so they are closer to God in some ways than the unbelieving jews.
Oh, most Jews believe that there was a historical Jesus ... however, they don't agree with Christians that he was the Messiah.
I really don't distinguish between judaism or Islam, as they both deny Jesus was the begotten Son of God. But I would hope you can explain Who this is coming to the temple if not the Lord Himself.
Well, first and foremost, you never told me which passage you want to look at. However, I have space to examine both, so let us proceed with the first passage: however, I'm going to look at a larger context than you actually cited. I'm going to recommend that before you read this part of the response, you get your Bible and read through the book of Malachi as a complete book: go ahead, read it, I'll wait.
:whistle:
Back so soon? Good. Let's start with the verse you quoted in Malachi 3, but I'm going to widen the context a bit.
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Hmmm. OK, now let's look at Malachi 4. This is a short chapter, so we can look at the whole thing.
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
The first and most important thing to look at is date: Malachi was most likely written in the 5th century BCE ... probably right before or during the reforms of Nehemiah. Now. let's set the scene ... the Jews have recently returned from Babylon, they've restored the Temple (as listed in Ezra and Nehemiah), but the priests are getting slack. The forecast grandeur and restoration of Israel as a mighty nation--as predicted by Zechariah and Haggai--have fallen apart, and the people are discouraged. Malachi chides the people and the priesthood not for idolatrous worship, but for not conducting proper worship. The priests are offering blemished animals for sacrifice (1:66), they're not teaching the people properly (2:8), the people are being unfaithful to the "wife of his youth." Malachi is one of the first Hebrew prophets to condemn divorce (2:16), but he is not the first to condemn marrying foreign wives (2:11).
The entire book of Malachi is geared around the structure of a dispute: Malachi is disputing the slack priests, the unattentive teachers, and the unfaithful men of Israel.
But you want me to see this book as a Messianic prophecy? There's at least one severe problem with that:
[verse=Malachi 3:3]And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.[/quote]
If you're trying to tell me that Jesus was sent to "purify the sons of Levi," then I will tell you that the prophecy of Malachi failed. Miserably.
The unbelieving "jews" fail to see this as they are of course blinded by their Talmud/Gemera.
Well, there's one little problem here, ICA: the Karaite Jews reject both the various Talmuds (there is more than one, you know) and the Gemara. Yet they still don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
Can I ask you sincerely how you view this passage and if you believe a temple even existed in the first century? If you do believe a temple existed, how do you view the Lord coming as?
ICA, I'll tell you honestly: I don't think Malachi was talking about Jesus at all. (That's why I put this discussion in Unorthodox Theology, because most of the people on this board do believe it, and while I disagree with their analysis, I respect their opinions, and the rules of the forum.) However, as I said, I don't believe that Malachi was speaking of Jesus. Malachi was speaking of the need for reform in post-Exhilic Judea.
Now, by the same token, you can pick this verse here and that verse there,apply a bit of creative interpretation, and you can craft a "prophecy" for just about anything. I've seen people take the scriptures and postulate things that would absolutely make your eyebrows disappear into your hairline. But I'm not going to take your word, Matthew Henry's word, or anyone else's word that Malachi was speaking of Jesus.
And I'm definitely not going to take your word--or anyone else's--that the Jews are worthy of condemnation for the execution of an apocalyptic preacher that may or may not have happened almost two-thousand years ago.
Justin
Oh, most Jews believe that there was a historical Jesus ... however, they don't agree with Christians that he was the Messiah.
I really don't distinguish between judaism or Islam, as they both deny Jesus was the begotten Son of God. But I would hope you can explain Who this is coming to the temple if not the Lord Himself.
Well, first and foremost, you never told me which passage you want to look at. However, I have space to examine both, so let us proceed with the first passage: however, I'm going to look at a larger context than you actually cited. I'm going to recommend that before you read this part of the response, you get your Bible and read through the book of Malachi as a complete book: go ahead, read it, I'll wait.
:whistle:
Back so soon? Good. Let's start with the verse you quoted in Malachi 3, but I'm going to widen the context a bit.
1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Hmmm. OK, now let's look at Malachi 4. This is a short chapter, so we can look at the whole thing.
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
The first and most important thing to look at is date: Malachi was most likely written in the 5th century BCE ... probably right before or during the reforms of Nehemiah. Now. let's set the scene ... the Jews have recently returned from Babylon, they've restored the Temple (as listed in Ezra and Nehemiah), but the priests are getting slack. The forecast grandeur and restoration of Israel as a mighty nation--as predicted by Zechariah and Haggai--have fallen apart, and the people are discouraged. Malachi chides the people and the priesthood not for idolatrous worship, but for not conducting proper worship. The priests are offering blemished animals for sacrifice (1:66), they're not teaching the people properly (2:8), the people are being unfaithful to the "wife of his youth." Malachi is one of the first Hebrew prophets to condemn divorce (2:16), but he is not the first to condemn marrying foreign wives (2:11).
The entire book of Malachi is geared around the structure of a dispute: Malachi is disputing the slack priests, the unattentive teachers, and the unfaithful men of Israel.
But you want me to see this book as a Messianic prophecy? There's at least one severe problem with that:
[verse=Malachi 3:3]And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.[/quote]
If you're trying to tell me that Jesus was sent to "purify the sons of Levi," then I will tell you that the prophecy of Malachi failed. Miserably.
The unbelieving "jews" fail to see this as they are of course blinded by their Talmud/Gemera.
Well, there's one little problem here, ICA: the Karaite Jews reject both the various Talmuds (there is more than one, you know) and the Gemara. Yet they still don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
Can I ask you sincerely how you view this passage and if you believe a temple even existed in the first century? If you do believe a temple existed, how do you view the Lord coming as?
ICA, I'll tell you honestly: I don't think Malachi was talking about Jesus at all. (That's why I put this discussion in Unorthodox Theology, because most of the people on this board do believe it, and while I disagree with their analysis, I respect their opinions, and the rules of the forum.) However, as I said, I don't believe that Malachi was speaking of Jesus. Malachi was speaking of the need for reform in post-Exhilic Judea.
Now, by the same token, you can pick this verse here and that verse there,apply a bit of creative interpretation, and you can craft a "prophecy" for just about anything. I've seen people take the scriptures and postulate things that would absolutely make your eyebrows disappear into your hairline. But I'm not going to take your word, Matthew Henry's word, or anyone else's word that Malachi was speaking of Jesus.
And I'm definitely not going to take your word--or anyone else's--that the Jews are worthy of condemnation for the execution of an apocalyptic preacher that may or may not have happened almost two-thousand years ago.
Justin