Daniel 8 and the 9/11 Event

[thebluetriangle]

Has anyone noticed the eerie parallels between Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat and the 9/11 attacks on the twin towers? Let me quote verses 3, 5, 6 and 7 from the NIV:

3. "I looked up, and there before me was a ram, with two horns, standing beside the canal, and the horns were long."

5. " As I was thinking about this, suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between his eyes came from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. 6. He came towards the two-horned ram I had seen standing beside the canal and charged at him in great rage. 7. I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns..."

Could 9/11 be the fulfilment of Daniel's dramatic prophecy?

In Christ

TBT

[Sheepdog]

probably not. what is interesting about this prophesy (and BTW, in the future it's a good idea to take in the whole prophesy, not just quote specific parts taht seem significant to you) is that we are actually given an interpretation from Gabriel, who some consider an archangel of some sort:

Then he said, “I am going to inform you about what will happen in the latter time of wrath, for the vision pertains to the appointed time of the end. The ram that you saw with the two horns stands for the kings of Media and Persia. The male goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. Daniel 8:19-21, NET. Also see read through v. 26.

In other words, this is about an event that had to happen sometime in the past, probably even before Christ came since Persia as a kingdom fell some time between Daniel and the rise of the Roman Empire. i honestly don't know what specific event this would best describe, as i'm not an expert on ancient history.

[Hitch]

No.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Sheepdog,

Yes, I'm aware that I only quoted part of the prophecy; perhaps the rest of it is yet to be fulfilled, or perhaps prophecy isn't to be taken as literally as many seem to think. I think certain archetypal motifs or patterns tend to recurr throughout history. The prophet may be tapping into an archetype, which might repeatedly manifest whenever conditions are right. The 9/11 event may be one such manifestation.

It's interesting that Daniel saw a ram in his vision. In Genesis 22, Abraham sacrifices a ram instead of his son. The text specifically mentioning that the ram was caught by its horns in a thicket. I think this story has elements in common with Daniel's prophecy, as do others. For instance, in 1 Chronicles 15:26, seven bulls and seven rams are sacrificed. In 2 Chronicles 17:11 the arabs bring Jehoshaphat 7700 rams and 7700 goats as tribute.

Could it be that these and other biblical narratives and prophecies are somehow prefiguring 9/11 or are linked to 9/11 by the same controlling archetype?

In Christ,

TBT

[Sheepdog]

Hi Sheepdog,

Yes, I'm aware that I only quoted part of the prophecy; perhaps the rest of it is yet to be fulfilled, or perhaps prophecy isn't to be taken as literally as many seem to think.

granted... however, we are offered not only a prophecy but also an interpretation. and that interpretation nails us down to a specific time frame, since it applies the prophesy to nations which existed at the time (but don't exist in the same way now).

I think certain archetypal motifs or patterns tend to recurr throughout history. The prophet may be tapping into an archetype, which might repeatedly manifest whenever conditions are right. The 9/11 event may be one such manifestation.

i don't like this kind of reasoning, for the simple fact that it was not intended to be cyclical for all we know, but refering to a specific, real time frame. sure we can find many events in history which coincidentially have some of the same elements, but if there is one specific event in the mind, so what?

It's interesting that Daniel saw a ram in his vision. In Genesis 22, Abraham sacrifices a ram instead of his son. The text specifically mentioning that the ram was caught by its horns in a thicket. I think this story has elements in common with Daniel's prophecy, as do others. For instance, in 1 Chronicles 15:26, seven bulls and seven rams are sacrificed. In 2 Chronicles 17:11 the arabs bring Jehoshaphat 7700 rams and 7700 goats as tribute.

it is actually not suprizing because rams were ceremonially clean animals which could be sacrificed, and in fact were to be regularly sacrificed by the prescription of the Law. by taking more significance here than there really is, we undermine what Scripture actually has to say for us.

Could it be that these and other biblical narratives and prophecies are somehow prefiguring 9/11 or are linked to 9/11 by the same controlling archetype?

or could it be that we have over-active imaginations, and we arrogantly presume that many if not most prophesies are about our time when they aren't?

[dizzle]

Has anyone noticed the eerie parallels between Daniel's Vision of a Ram and a Goat and the 9/11 attacks on the twin towers?

Err no.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Sheepdog,

Hmm, I didn't expect to be personally attacked quite so early into the discussion. I'm trying to propound a new idea and I do therefore expect to be opposed...but I would appreciate it if you would restrict your comments to what I write, rather than what you imagine I might be thinking.

I don't "arrogantly presume" that biblical prophecies are "about our time". Firstly, I did say that these patterns could repeat throughout history. Secondly, the evidence itself leads me to the conclusion that a number of biblical prophecies were very recently fulfilled (or fulfilled again). Of course, any prophecies fulfilled at the present time would naturally have more worldwide impact than those which may have been fulfilled in the past. Also, we are now at a critical pass in our march through history, a pass we may not succesfully negotiate. If ever there were a time for Christ to return, it is now.

Lets look at a few more biblical narratives and prophecies for possible references to 9/11.

1. Well, first, there's Genesis 11 and that monument to hubris and ambition, the tower of Babel. God scattered its builders to ensure the project would not be completed. Were the twin towers a latter-day tower of Babel?

2. There's Revelation 11, where the two witnesses are destroyed and lie in the streets of a great city.

3. In Mark 11 Jesus curses a fig tree, causing it to wither. I wonder why the Lord would do something so apparently petulant, especially when the tree was out of season anyway. Could the "trees without fruit" be the twin towers?

4. Revelation 13:11 tells us of the "beast out of the earth", with two horns like a lamb, but who "spoke like a dragon". If this is the World Trade Centre, then the "beast out of the water", described in Rev 13:1, is New York, which of course would then also be Daniel's ram.

5. In John 9:11 Jesus puts mud in a blind man's eyes, healing him.

6. In Mark 13:2 Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

7. Luke 23:32 tells us that two criminals were executed alongside Jesus.

I propose that all are prophecies of 9/11.

In Christ,

TBT

[spiritmech]

#3. No. That is the nation of Israel who is rejecting Jesus as Christ.

You're going to have to do better than that, given the context and giving the fact that just because you see the word "two" someplace doesn't mean it applies to two towers.
SM

[Ted]

You must be careful to apply scripture in the way that scripture says it is to be used. Daniel 8 is quite explicit with regard to the question you raise. You should not try to apply it in a manner away from the way Daniel describes it.

Ted

[Hitch]

So obviously the seven evil spirits refer to 7th and Broadway....

[studyhound]

Hi Sheepdog,

Hmm, I didn't expect to be personally attacked quite so early into the discussion. I'm trying to propound a new idea and I do therefore expect to be opposed...but I would appreciate it if you would restrict your comments to what I write, rather than what you imagine I might be thinking.

I don't "arrogantly presume" that biblical prophecies are "about our time". Firstly, I did say that these patterns could repeat throughout history. Secondly, the evidence itself leads me to the conclusion that a number of biblical prophecies were very recently fulfilled (or fulfilled again). Of course, any prophecies fulfilled at the present time would naturally have more worldwide impact than those which may have been fulfilled in the past. Also, we are now at a critical pass in our march through history, a pass we may not succesfully negotiate. If ever there were a time for Christ to return, it is now.

Lets look at a few more biblical narratives and prophecies for possible references to 9/11.

1. Well, first, there's Genesis 11 and that monument to hubris and ambition, the tower of Babel. God scattered its builders to ensure the project would not be completed. Were the twin towers a latter-day tower of Babel?

2. There's Revelation 11, where the two witnesses are destroyed and lie in the streets of a great city.

3. In Mark 11 Jesus curses a fig tree, causing it to wither. I wonder why the Lord would do something so apparently petulant, especially when the tree was out of season anyway. Could the "trees without fruit" be the twin towers?

4. Revelation 13:11 tells us of the "beast out of the earth", with two horns like a lamb, but who "spoke like a dragon". If this is the World Trade Centre, then the "beast out of the water", described in Rev 13:1, is New York, which of course would then also be Daniel's ram.

5. In John 9:11 Jesus puts mud in a blind man's eyes, healing him.

6. In Mark 13:2 Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

7. Luke 23:32 tells us that two criminals were executed alongside Jesus.

I propose that all are prophecies of 9/11.

In Christ,

TBT
To pharaphrase Mr. Noel, this is Getto/street eschatology!!:sigh:

:sh:

[Sheepdog]

Hi Sheepdog,

Hmm, I didn't expect to be personally attacked quite so early into the discussion. I'm trying to propound a new idea and I do therefore expect to be opposed...but I would appreciate it if you would restrict your comments to what I write, rather than what you imagine I might be thinking.

I don't "arrogantly presume" that biblical prophecies are "about our time".

well, that wasn't actually meant to be a slam on you specifically, but a general critique of how Bible prophecy often get's maligned by moderns.

Firstly, I did say that these patterns could repeat throughout history. Secondly, the evidence itself leads me to the conclusion that a number of biblical prophecies were very recently fulfilled (or fulfilled again). Of course, any prophecies fulfilled at the present time would naturally have more worldwide impact than those which may have been fulfilled in the past. Also, we are now at a critical pass in our march through history, a pass we may not succesfully negotiate. If ever there were a time for Christ to return, it is now.

for one thing, why expect any particular prophecy to be fulfilled in our time? that question needs to be answered before we begin speculating about modern fulfillments. After all, anyone can force-fit a Prophecy to have any fulfillment they want; a good Bible exegete, however, will attempt to understand why the prophesy was given, why it was given to a particular set of people, and whether it was intended for an immediate fulfillment (in their time) or a later fulfillment (maybe in our time, but maybe not).

Lets look at a few more biblical narratives and prophecies for possible references to 9/11.

1. Well, first, there's Genesis 11 and that monument to hubris and ambition, the tower of Babel. God scattered its builders to ensure the project would not be completed. Were the twin towers a latter-day tower of Babel?

technically, this isn't a prophesy. as far as i can tell, it is a historical event. no fulfillment where no prophetic foresight is intended.

2. There's Revelation 11, where the two witnesses are destroyed and lie in the streets of a great city.

they weren't destroyed, per se, but killed. so, when did the twin towers prophecy for 1260 days (v. 3)? or have fire come out of their mouths to consume their enemies (5), or have the power to stop any rain from falling (6)? such prophesies are aparently very malible to those who are looking for a particular fulfillment.

3. In Mark 11 Jesus curses a fig tree, causing it to wither. I wonder why the Lord would do something so apparently petulant, especially when the tree was out of season anyway. Could the "trees without fruit" be the twin towers?

if that's the case, what would the fruitlessness symbolize? but in fact, the fig tree represented Israel, as someone else mentioned earlier. Jesus made quite a few prophetic statements against the people of that day.

4. Revelation 13:11 tells us of the "beast out of the earth", with two horns like a lamb, but who "spoke like a dragon". If this is the World Trade Centre, then the "beast out of the water", described in Rev 13:1, is New York, which of course would then also be Daniel's ram.

arbitrary.

5. In John 9:11 Jesus puts mud in a blind man's eyes, healing him.

Ohh, 9:11? aside from the verse number, what is the significance?

BTW, ever read John 6:66? spooky.

6. In Mark 13:2 Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem.

...which happened in AD70. so?

7. Luke 23:32 tells us that two criminals were executed alongside Jesus.

arbitrary

I propose that all are prophecies of 9/11.

meh. in the hands of a good word-smith, they could be made prophesies for anything. but instead of quote mining, why not try to understand such passages in their Biblical and social contexts?

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Sheepdog,

Since you bring numbers into the discussion, you might like to note that Daniel 8 is the Bible's 858th chapter, 858 being 11 x 78. Mark 11 is the 968th chapter, this being 11 x 11 x 8. I also mentioned Mark 1:32 and Luke 23:32. 132 = 11 x 12 and 2332 = 11 x 212.

But let's deal with your other points.

1. On prophecy you say "for one thing, why expect any particular prophecy to be fulfilled in our time? that question needs to be answered before we begin speculating about modern fulfillments."

I don't expect anything - I'm simply noticing an analogy between many biblical passages and the 9/11 event. This leads me to speculate that 9/11 may be the fulfillment of biblical end-time prophecies. These biblical passages differ in many ways, of course, but they incorporate themes that are appropriate to the 9/11: sacrifice, division, duality, conflict, destruction. However, many other passages deal with concepts that one would not initially associate with 9/11, such as atonement, healing, covenant, circumcision, offering, resurrection. Perhaps we are supposed to realise that there is in fact a connection between 9/11 and God's plan for humankind?

What I propose is that 9/11 was an act of God - or rather, a human act, used by God to encode a message, the key to which is found in the Bible. The twin towers represented financial and economic power, the Pentagon represents military and political power. These are the horns of the beast. This is Babylon the Great. Sodom and Gomorrah. Our mis-use of power has brought the world to a very perilous place and the destruction on 9/11 was, I believe, an urgent message to all humankind. These are the forces that enslave you! To survive as a species we must abandon materialism, power politics and all kinds of tribalism and adopt a more compassionate, spiritual, inclusive way of living - and we must do it now. While our religious leaders - that includes people on this forum - argue ad nauseum over the fine points of theology, God is busy sending you urgent messages. Wake up and listen! This is the eleventh hour!

2. On The Tower of Babel, you say "technically, this isn't a prophesy. as far as i can tell, it is a historical event. no fulfillment where no prophetic foresight is intended."

I know that. Perhaps it is a covert prophecy though, or has been co-opted as a prophetic tool. Anyway, it's difficult to miss the parallel, especially when the story is found in the 11th chapter of Genesis. For those who practice "higher criticism", do you think God would be above such numerical symbolism? It's my experience that God will use any method he can to bend our ear, so stubbornly do we refuse to listen.

3. On Revelation 11 you say "they weren't destroyed, per se, but killed. so, when did the twin towers prophecy for 1260 days (v. 3)? or have fire come out of their mouths to consume their enemies (5), or have the power to stop any rain from falling (6)? such prophesies are aparently very malible to those who are looking for a particular fulfillment."

Granted they were killed rather than destroyed. But Sheepdog, since you seem to believe the witnesses are people, when did you ever see fire coming out from people's mouths. What would be the purpose of that? Only a naiive fool would take these words literally.

4. On Mark 11 you say "if that's the case, what would the fruitlessness symbolize? but in fact, the fig tree represented Israel, as someone else mentioned earlier. Jesus made quite a few prophetic statements against the people of that day."

The twin towers are 'trees without fruit' representing the apostacy and rebellion of the modern world. The fig tree may well have represented Israel too. Jesus' action can be seen to represent the breaking of the old covenant, to be replaced by a new covenant between God and man. So can 9/11.

5. On John 9:11 you say "Ohh, 9:11? aside from the verse number, what is the significance?"

The significance is that 9/11 is opening the eyes of the world. You could think of 9/11 as bursting the illusory bubble surrounding a nation that felt it was removed from the suffering of the world at large, suffering for which this nation, in large measure, is responsible.

6. On the destruction of the temple, you say "...which happened in AD70. so? "

The destruction of the temple, which actually happened, has been co-opted as a metaphor for 9/11. Why can't it be both?

7. On my conclusion that these events are prophesies of 9/11, you say "meh. in the hands of a good word-smith, they could be made prophesies for anything. but instead of quote mining, why not try to understand such passages in their Biblical and social contexts?"

Perhaps these passages have been overlaid with another layer of meaning? I may be "quote mining", but that doesn't mean to say I haven't struck gold.

[dizzle]

are you suggesting that chapter and verse divisions are inspired?

[Sheepdog]

Hi Sheepdog,

Since you bring numbers into the discussion, you might like to note that Daniel 8 is the Bible's 858th chapter, 858 being 11 x 78. Mark 11 is the 968th chapter, this being 11 x 11 x 8. I also mentioned Mark 1:32 and Luke 23:32. 132 = 11 x 12 and 2332 = 11 x 212.

i'm curious, have you taken the time to find out when the chapter and verse divisions were actually added?

numerology is a spook game. really, i could do the above and find an arbitrary passage which has no significance to the discussion of the Twin Towers yet has a really cool number when you figure it out.

but here's a trick for you. instead of digging for hidden meanings and spooky numbers, why don't you just read the text and listen to what God says on the surface?

But let's deal with your other points.

1. On prophecy you say "for one thing, why expect any particular prophecy to be fulfilled in our time? that question needs to be answered before we begin speculating about modern fulfillments."

I don't expect anything - I'm simply noticing an analogy between many biblical passages and the 9/11 event.

if you don't expect anything then you are already on the wrong track. prophesy isn't arbitrary; if we really want to understand it we need to seek to understand what is being prophecied and why. otherwise we are bound to misinterpret.

if i "prophecied" that political liberals will have a hissy fit about something, what kind of prophesy is that? they have hissy fits all the time for crying out loud! :wink: no, for a prophecy to be significant it has to be limited to a very narrow frame of events. and in fact, most of the prophesies we do see in the Bible are as narrow. to apply them to an arbitrarily event, especially one that the Bible writers themselves would not concern themselves with (like a terror attack on some nation that didn't even exist in their day), is disingenuous. worse still, to look at any Bible verse as being prophesy just because it as a spooky resemblance to something (even though that passage itself wasn't meant to be a prophesy) is the work of the paranoid goofballs who should be locked away from the public.

This leads me to speculate...

and everyone should note that the key term here is speculate.

... that 9/11 may be the fulfillment of biblical end-time prophecies. These biblical passages differ in many ways, of course, but they incorporate themes that are appropriate to the 9/11: sacrifice, division, duality, conflict, destruction. However, many other passages deal with concepts that one would not initially associate with 9/11, such as atonement, healing, covenant, circumcision, offering, resurrection. Perhaps we are supposed to realise that there is in fact a connection between 9/11 and God's plan for humankind?

or you just have an overactive imagination, and you are reading a spook game into the Scriptures when there is none there.

What I propose is that 9/11 was an act of God - or rather, a human act, used by God to encode a message, the key to which is found in the Bible. The twin towers represented financial and economic power, the Pentagon represents military and political power. These are the horns of the beast. This is Babylon the Great. Sodom and Gomorrah. Our mis-use of power has brought the world to a very perilous place and the destruction on 9/11 was, I believe, an urgent message to all humankind. These are the forces that enslave you! To survive as a species we must abandon materialism, power politics and all kinds of tribalism and adopt a more compassionate, spiritual, inclusive way of living - and we must do it now. While our religious leaders - that includes people on this forum - argue ad nauseum over the fine points of theology, God is busy sending you urgent messages. Wake up and listen! This is the eleventh hour!

:lmbo: i could imagine you now: Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. this is just more Tin Foil Hat Eschatology. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45213)

sooo.... what now? you think God is telling us to convert to communism or soemthing? but in reality, i suspect if God really wanted to send us a message, it would be a bit more lucent than a bunch of goofy numerology and hacksaw exegesis of Bible passages.

2. On The Tower of Babel, you say "technically, this isn't a prophesy. as far as i can tell, it is a historical event. no fulfillment where no prophetic foresight is intended."

I know that. Perhaps it is a covert prophecy though, or has been co-opted as a prophetic tool. Anyway, it's difficult to miss the parallel, especially when the story is found in the 11th chapter of Genesis. For those who practice "higher criticism", do you think God would be above such numerical symbolism? It's my experience that God will use any method he can to bend our ear, so stubbornly do we refuse to listen.

covert prophecy! :lmbo: wow! this is getting sillier by the minute.

why should we expect it to be prophetic in any way? it is just a story about an event in the ancient past. that it is in the 11th chapter isn't significant; something had to be in the 11th chapter... do you expect the person who added the chapter separations to skip the number 11?

3. On Revelation 11 you say "they weren't destroyed, per se, but killed. so, when did the twin towers prophecy for 1260 days (v. 3)? or have fire come out of their mouths to consume their enemies (5), or have the power to stop any rain from falling (6)? such prophesies are aparently very malible to those who are looking for a particular fulfillment."

Granted they were killed rather than destroyed. But Sheepdog, since you seem to believe the witnesses are people, when did you ever see fire coming out from people's mouths. What would be the purpose of that? Only a naiive fool would take these words literally.

i don't take the fire breathing literally. it is just that the only match of the description of the witness to the WTC is the fact that there were two of them. the rest of the description makes no sense if it was meant to describe the Towers. you didn't answer my questions regarding the 1260 days, or making it so it doesn't rain. how come?

4. On Mark 11 you say "if that's the case, what would the fruitlessness symbolize? but in fact, the fig tree represented Israel, as someone else mentioned earlier. Jesus made quite a few prophetic statements against the people of that day."

The twin towers are 'trees without fruit' representing the apostacy and rebellion of the modern world. The fig tree may well have represented Israel too. Jesus' action can be seen to represent the breaking of the old covenant, to be replaced by a new covenant between God and man. So can 9/11.

there is no "may well have" about it. in ancient tradition the Jews often saw the fig tree as being symbolic of them. however, really the barren fig tree can represent virtually any apostacy if we really want to. Nazi Germany? a barren fig tree. the Pope? some would argue he is a barren fig tree. but it doesn't matter what we want the fig tree to symbolize; it symbolized on thing in its social context, and we do Jesus no good service by bastardizing His analogy for our purposes.

5. On John 9:11 you say "Ohh, 9:11? aside from the verse number, what is the significance?"

The significance is that 9/11 is opening the eyes of the world. You could think of 9/11 as bursting the illusory bubble surrounding a nation that felt it was removed from the suffering of the world at large, suffering for which this nation, in large measure, is responsible.

ah, so you are a bleeding heart liberal... which would explain your misuse of Scripture. you have an axe to grind, and anything in the Bible that you can make look like it could support your view, you twist and distort until by golly! it is a prophesy of judgement against those capitalist pigs we call America. :ahem:

of course, your usage of John 9:11 assumes Jesus' interaction with this blind man was meant to be prophetic; that is a case you are still burdened to show.

6. On the destruction of the temple, you say "...which happened in AD70. so? "

The destruction of the temple, which actually happened, has been co-opted as a metaphor for 9/11. Why can't it be both? '

indeed why should it be both? you bear the burden of proof, since this is your goofball theory; i see no reason to think it is both, thus it is up to you to convince me otherwise.

7. On my conclusion that these events are prophesies of 9/11, you say "meh. in the hands of a good word-smith, they could be made prophesies for anything. but instead of quote mining, why not try to understand such passages in their Biblical and social contexts?"

Perhaps these passages have been overlaid with another layer of meaning? I may be "quote mining", but that doesn't mean to say I haven't struck gold.

there is no reason to think that this other layer of meaning is intended to be there by God. so far, all i see is another crackpot conspiracy theory. more eschatological speculations from the tin foil hat segment of Christendom.

[thebluetriangle]

are you suggesting that chapter and verse divisions are inspired?

Hi Dee Dee,

Based on the evidence I've seen, I think they may well be inspired. Here's something I noticed:

The Bible's 103rd chapter is Leviticus 13
The Bible's 130th chapter is Numbers 13
The New Testament's 130th chapter is Romans 13
Acts 13 is the midpoint between the Bible's 1030th chapter (Acts 12) and the New Testament's 103rd chapter (Acts 14).

The Bible's central (and shortest) chapter is Psalm 117 (= 13 x 9). The theme is God's love for us. In fact, in the NIV Bible, the central two words of the chapter are "his love".

You may have noticed that Paul's famous chapter on the subject of love is 1 Corinthians 13, with 13 verses. Well, in Hebrew gematria, AHaVaH (love) = 13.

In Christ,

TBT

[studyhound]

i could imagine you now: Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. this is just more Tin Foil Hat Eschatology. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45213)
I figure that thebluetriangle is a dapper kind of fella,

[thebluetriangle]

i'm curious, have you taken the time to find out when the chapter and verse divisions were actually added?

Yes. Chapters were added in the 13th century, verses in the 16th century. Your point being?

numerology is a spook game. really, i could do the above and find an arbitrary passage which has no significance to the discussion of the Twin Towers yet has a really cool number when you figure it out.

I invite you to do just that. And I like your use of the word 'spook'. That's just who inspired the Bible: the Holy Spook.

but here's a trick for you. instead of digging for hidden meanings and spooky numbers, why don't you just read the text and listen to what God says on the surface?

I do that too. But the Bible is a little like the earth's crust: stratified. Dig under the surface and you find all kinds of interesting things that tell you about how it evolved. Now and again you also find buried treasure.

Let's not be superficial here.

if you don't expect anything then you are already on the wrong track. prophesy isn't arbitrary; if we really want to understand it we need to seek to understand what is being prophecied and why. otherwise we are bound to misinterpret.
th chapter... do you expect the person who added the chapter separations to skip the number 11?

On the contrary, if I come to prophecy with prior expectations I am in danger of taking what I want out of it.

We do need to understand what is being prophesised, although I'm not sure about the why. I suggest that in the case of true prophecy only God knows why - after all it is a future event. Daniel himself didn't understand some of his prophecies. But he did faithfully record them.

I think the person who divided the bible into chapters did not understand the connection between the story of the Tower of Babel and an event 700 years in his future. But the Holy Spook did.

if i "prophecied" that political liberals will have a hissy fit about something, what kind of prophesy is that? they have hissy fits all the time for crying out loud! :wink: no, for a prophecy to be significant it has to be limited to a very narrow frame of events. and in fact, most of the prophesies we do see in the Bible are as narrow. to apply them to an arbitrarily event, especially one that the Bible writers themselves would not concern themselves with (like a terror attack on some nation that didn't even exist in their day), is disingenuous. worse still, to look at any Bible verse as being prophesy just because it as a spooky resemblance to something (even though that passage itself wasn't meant to be a prophesy) is the work of the paranoid goofballs who should be locked away from the public.
number 11?

I take it you're not a political liberal then... Most of the rest of this segment is just your opinion. Stop proclaming it as unalterable fact!

Of course the Bible writers weren't concerned with 9/11. Some of them were prophets, though, who saw visions and recorded them - or don't you believe in visions?

Maybe the writers didn't intend certain passages to be prophecies, but perhaps the Holy Spook had other ideas! Are you limiting His powers?

I see you'd also like to limit the freedom of those with whom you have fundamental disagreements - that's worrying.

and everyone should note that the key term here is speculate.

Well, you can't accuse me of being dogmatic! I suspect you are, though.


lmbo: i could imagine you now: Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. this is just more Tin Foil Hat Eschatology. (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45213)

Then stop using your imagination. The reality is very different.

sooo.... what now? you think God is telling us to convert to communism or soemthing? but in reality, i suspect if God really wanted to send us a message, it would be a bit more lucent than a bunch of goofy numerology and hacksaw exegesis of Bible passages.

Hmm, definitely not a liberal...

God sent us 9/11 and the means with which to understand it. I'm the one with the hacksaw.

covert prophecy! :lmbo: wow! this is getting sillier by the minute.

why should we expect it to be prophetic in any way? it is just a story about an event in the ancient past. that it is in the 11th chapter isn't significant; something had to be in the 11th chapter... do you expect the person who added the chapter separations to skip the number 11?;

It is a story about an event in the past, probably more myth than fact. However, I am suggesting that it has been used (by God) to send us a message, connecting the Tower of Babel to the WTC (abeit tenuously, but the evidence builds), through textual placement and their archetypal significance.

i don't take the fire breathing literally. it is just that the only match of the description of the witness to the WTC is the fact that there were two of them. the rest of the description makes no sense if it was meant to describe the Towers. you didn't answer my questions regarding the 1260 days, or making it so it doesn't rain. how come?

I'm glad you don't take everything literally! The twin towers were around for 35 years, which is about 12600 days. The 1260 days may have further significance, though. Maybe the witnesses stopped it raining so that the fire that came out of their mouths wouldn't go out.

there is no "may well have" about it. in ancient tradition the Jews often saw the fig tree as being symbolic of them.

Granted


however, really the barren fig tree can represent virtually any apostacy if we really want to. Nazi Germany? a barren fig tree. the Pope? some would argue he is a barren fig tree. but it doesn't matter what we want the fig tree to symbolize; it symbolized on thing in its social context, and we do Jesus no good service by bastardizing His analogy for our purposes.

Hmm, definitely not a Catholic then.

So you admit the fig tree can symbolise the twin towers too? I'm not bastardising anything! I'm saying that Mark 11 either is or has been utilised as a reference to a future event: 9/11. You will notice that after Jesus curses the fig tree he goes on to overturn the tables of the moneychangers. What does this remind you of?


ah, so you are a bleeding heart liberal... which would explain your misuse of Scripture. you have an axe to grind, and anything in the Bible that you can make look like it could support your view, you twist and distort until by golly! it is a prophesy of judgement against those capitalist pigs we call America. :ahem:

My heart does bleed for the plight of those less fortunate that myself. Yours sounds rather hardened to the suffering of others. What kind of Christian are you?

I have no axe to grind, other than a desire to see a fairer, better world. There are many things about the USA that I like and admire - in some ways you represent the best of humanity. But in other ways you represent the worst of us. You have also unleashed a dangerous beast, which right now is running rampant throughout the world: unbridled capitalism. And you have the political and military clout to ensure that nobody stops it. The USA, in common with many western nations, worships mammon, not God.

What wealth has also given the world is a certain kind of self-satisfied Christian, middle class, usually protestant, rich in scriptural knowledge but poor in spiritual understanding, ready to judge others, as you have repeatedly judged me (I should have guessed as much from your picture), ready to condemn as bleeding heart liberals or pinko-faggot commies those who criticise the System that sustains them and is their real, unaknowledged, God, ready to nip heels that step out of line (now I know why you call your self 'Sheepdog'), even ready to condem as insane and recommend their incarceration of those who dare to cross whatever arbitrary line they have drawn for acceptable views. In biblical times such people were known as 'Pharisees' and Jesus condemned them. Today they are known as 'neo-conservative Christians', and I think Jesus would condemn them and their ilk too. In fact he did, on 9/11.

In Christ,

TBT

[Sheepdog]

I figure that thebluetriangle is a dapper kind of fella,

:lmbo: it's perfect for him! :thumb:

[thebluetriangle]

:lmbo: it's perfect for him! :thumb:

I like it! My skin tone's a bit healthier, though.

[split_ph0t0n]

I like it! My skin tone's a bit healthier, though.
Spoken like a true Christian. No anger explosion after getting beat down by the immature, and closed-minded.

It won't hurt to open your minds. Don't forget, the pharisees refused to believe the Jesus was the Messiah due to the same type of thinking. And what's the deal with making fun of him? Especially since you, sheepdog, also pointed out John 6:66. You pointed out a scripture based on its number while calling thebluetriangle's point "a bunch of goofy numerology and hacksaw exegesis of Bible passages". This is what the Bible refers to as hypocrisy.

My heart does bleed for the plight of those less fortunate that myself. Yours sounds rather hardened to the suffering of others. What kind of Christian are you?
I have no axe to grind, other than a desire to see a fairer, better world. There are many things about the USA that I like and admire - in some ways you represent the best of humanity. But in other ways you represent the worst of us. You have also unleashed a dangerous beast, which right now is running rampant throughout the world: unbridled capitalism. And you have the political and military clout to ensure that nobody stops it. The USA, in common with many western nations, worships mammon, not God.
What wealth has also given the world is a certain kind of self-satisfied Christian, middle class, usually protestant, rich in scriptural knowledge but poor in spiritual understanding, ready to judge others, as you have repeatedly judged me (I should have guessed as much from your picture), ready to condemn as bleeding heart liberals or pinko-faggot commies those who criticise the System that sustains them and is their real, unaknowledged, God, ready to nip heels that step out of line (now I know why you call your self 'Sheepdog'), even ready to condem as insane and recommend their incarceration of those who dare to cross whatever arbitrary line they have drawn for acceptable views. In biblical times such people were known as 'Pharisees' and Jesus condemned them. Today they are known as 'neo-conservative Christians', and I think Jesus would condemn them and their ilk too. In fact he did, on 9/11.
Beatifully put. Unfortunately, we are the minority in this view, thebluetriangle. Especially me, being American. When confronted with a challenge such as this, most Americans do just as these two did, make fun of you witholding any kind of intelligent reply. Bleek, our future is. Soon the world will be just as screwed-up as the USA. Those who don't see it, don't want to. For you, I repeatedly shake you and cry, "Wake Up!"

[Xavier]

So has he figured out that we're all preterists yet?

[thebluetriangle]

Spoken like a true Christian. No anger explosion after getting beat down by the immature, and closed-minded.

Thankyou SplitPhoton (interesting name!). I was beginning to wonder if I'd stepped into a lion's den!

It won't hurt to open your minds. Don't forget, the pharisees refused to believe the Jesus was the Messiah due to the same type of thinking. And what's the deal with making fun of him? Especially since you, sheepdog, also pointed out John 6:66. You pointed out a scripture based on its number while calling thebluetriangle's point "a bunch of goofy numerology and hacksaw exegesis of Bible passages". This is what the Bible refers to as hypocrisy.

They're attacking me because they have something to fear. All attack is a cry for help.

Unfortunately, we are the minority in this view, thebluetriangle. Especially me, being American. When confronted with a challenge such as this, most Americans do just as these two did, make fun of you witholding any kind of intelligent reply. Bleek, our future is. Soon the world will be just as screwed-up as the USA. Those who don't see it, don't want to. For you, I repeatedly shake you and cry, "Wake Up!"

In Scotland, where I come from, people do the same thing. But if my idea is as laughably stupid as some here have stated or implied, it should be a simple matter to deal with it and move on to more important matters.

I'm afraid the future is bleak indeed. I remember reading an article by the astrophysicist Fred Hoyle around 1980. He estimated that the world population would begin to crash around 2015 and that this would represent suffering on an unimaginable scale. It seemed obvious to me at the time that he was right (although we may have to wait beyond 2015 for the curve to start falling); it was equally obvious to me that nothing, absolutely nothing, would be done about it. We're still waiting for something to be done.

Soon the world will be just as screwed-up as the USA. Those who don't see it, don't want to. For you, I repeatedly shake you and cry, "Wake Up!"

Perhaps 9/11 (it's even your emergency dialing code!) was that wake-up call?

Thankyou again. It's nice to hear a friendly voice.

In Christ

TBT

[Democritus]

So has he figured out that we're all preterists yet?
Preterists?

Not to bash an entire group, but what exactly do you believe in anyway? It seems to me that it is just an elaborate word for simply saying "to hell with it".

Please let me know if I have interpreted you's wrong... and if so, how, exactly?

Please watch using that word in a cursing context

[Bill the Cat]

So has he figured out that we're all preterists yet?

Speak for yourself mister!! :poke:

[Democritus]

... And as far as use of the word, which was faithfully omitted above, I thought we were all adults here....

[Bill the Cat]

Actually, we do have a few minors posting, and a decorum we strive to maintain.

Also, the notice says not to take issue with the moderation in this thread.

Happy posting!

Bill

[Democritus]

Apologies, I shouldda realized sheepdog was a minor... :lol:

No offense intended... seriously.

[Bill the Cat]

:rofl: !!!!!

[Xavier]

Speak for yourself mister!! :poke:
I did... Prior to you it was just Ted (and he's on our end of the eschatological spectrum)... :hehe:

[Democritus]

Preterists?

Not to bash an entire group, but what exactly do you believe in anyway? It seems to me that it is just an elaborate word for simply saying "to * edited by a moderator * with it".

Please let me know if I have interpreted you's wrong... and if so, how, exactly?


Umm, still waiting for a reply of some sort though...
Do you guys honestly think all prophesy contained within the Bible is complete? Everything has come to pass? How exactly could something such as the 9/11 Event (and believe me, I hate calling it that) come to pass if everything in the Bible was completed?

Wouldn't that imply that we exist some time after (spooky word there) the Last Trump Call in Revelation? I don't see my grand mama anywhere around here... wassup?

[Xavier]

Preterists?

Not to bash an entire group, but what exactly do you believe in anyway? It seems to me that it is just an elaborate word for simply saying "to * edited by a moderator * with it".

Please let me know if I have interpreted you's wrong... and if so, how, exactly?


Yes, you have interpreted wrong... In more ways than one... :lol:

As preterists, we believe that most eschatological prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 with the end of the Jewish War and the fall of the Temple. Exhaustive looks at the position may be found throughout this forum and over on Dee Dee Warren's site (www.preteristlist.com).

As such, we get to sit back and laugh at the numerous ways people try to force fit their poor eschatology into modern context. I believe Sheepdog coined the phrase "Tin Hat Eschatology" for such "interpretations".

Continuing with your second post...

Do you guys honestly think all prophesy contained within the Bible is complete? Everything has come to pass? How exactly could something such as the 9/11 Event (and believe me, I hate calling it that) come to pass if everything in the Bible was completed?

There's an easy one... We don't believe that all prophesy is past. We believe that Christ's physical return, the General Resurrection of Believers, and the Final Judgment are all future.

Wouldn't that imply that we exist some time after (spooky word there) the Last Trump Call in Revelation? I don't see my grand mama anywhere around here... wassup?

Not unless you're a heretic... And none of them are allowed to post in this particular forum.

Yours,
Xavier

[Democritus]

Wouldn't we all be living in better conditions?
And while I am asking, where exactly is/was the city told of in REV 21:2? Isn't God Himself supposed to be there? What gives?

[Xavier]

Rev 21 has not been fulfilled.

[Democritus]

There's an easy one... We don't believe that all prophesy is past. We believe that Christ's physical return, the General Resurrection of Believers, and the Final Judgment are all future.

Ahh, I see.

Sorry bout the bout.

[Xavier]

No probs... Tis a legit question to ask... :smile:

[Sheepdog]

Where did all these trolls come from!? Bill the Cat, did you leave their cage doors open or something?

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Xavier,

I'd like to pick up on a couple of points here.

As preterists, we believe that most eschatological prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70 with the end of the Jewish War and the fall of the Temple. Exhaustive looks at the position may be found throughout this forum and over on Dee Dee Warren's site

This may or may not be true, but do you think it possible that some prophecies can be repeatedly fulfilled? It's now known that we live in a fractal universe, fractals being shapes that show self-similarity at different scales. I think it's possible that the universe is evolving or unfolding as a huge multidimensional fractal. In that context, it's possible that self-similarirty can occur over time (another dimension), appearing as the recapitulation of similar events throughout history.

Prophets could be tapping into these patterns, or archetypes, and thus predicting events that are fulfilled repeatedly, rather than once, and in a partial sense, rather than once only.

As such, we get to sit back and laugh at the numerous ways people try to force fit their poor eschatology into modern context. I believe Sheepdog coined the phrase "Tin Hat Eschatology" for such "interpretations".

If you are referring to me, then let me assure you I am not trying to force fit my eschatology into the pages of the bible. For one thing, I have no eschatological position to defend or promote. I have merely noticed a consistent pattern of confluences throughout the Bible, involving biblical events and end-time prophecies that appear to have have elements in common with 9/11, and certain numbers that were found clustered around 9/11. This appears to be non-random, therefore I propose that it comprises a communication to us from an unknown source. The fact that it is mediated through no less a book than the Bible, makes certain obvious similarities between 9/11 and end time prophecies and fundamentally important Biblical events and has been achieved in such a manner as to negate any possibility that it could be the work of unaided humans, leads us to the conclusion that we have before us nothing less than a miracle, captured within the pages of the Bible for all to see.

As Christians, surely you believe in the possibility of miracles? I became a Christian because of miracles.

In Christ,

TBT

[Hitch]

This may or may not be true, but do you think it possible that some prophecies can be repeatedly fulfilled? Do you think its possible another Messiah is yet to come? Applying your logic is there any reason not to assume another virgin birth is on the horizon?

[thebluetriangle]

This may or may not be true, but do you think it possible that some prophecies can be repeatedly fulfilled? Do you think its possible another Messiah is yet to come?QUOTE]

Yes, it's possible, because with God all things are possible. However, I don't think the Second Coming is necessarily the physical return of one man. I think it is more likely to be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The return of Christ is an inner process, an inner birthing. In fact I believe it is happening at this moment.

[QUOTE=Hitch]Applying your logic is there any reason not to assume another virgin birth is on the horizon?
I don't really believe there was a first virgin birth (although I concede it is possible, for the reason I gave above). I don't believe this was ever meant to be taken literally, any more than the six-day Creation account. Currently we distinguish between miracles and ordinary events, the supernatural and the natural, etc. This is a false dichotomy. There is only the natural world and the laws of nature. However, we do not currently understand nature, so when events occur that seem impossible to us, we call them 'miraculous'. The natural world also includes realms we currently think of as 'spiritual'. They are real, but as much a part of nature as the material world.

This is not atheism or materialism - there is indeed a God, a Creator, but we have to move on from a 1st century understanding of Him, which is where most Christians appear to be coming from.

In Christ,

TBT

[Hitch]

I don't really believe there was a first virgin birth (although I concede it is possible, for the reason I gave above). I don't believe this was ever meant to be taken literally, any more than the six-day Creation account. Currently we distinguish between miracles and ordinary events, the supernatural and the natural, etc. This is a false dichotomy. There is only the natural world and the laws of nature. However, we do not currently understand nature, so when events occur that seem impossible to us, we call them 'miraculous'. The natural world also includes realms we currently think of as 'spiritual'. They are real, but as much a part of nature as the material world.

This is not atheism or materialism - there is indeed a God, a Creator, but we have to move on from a 1st century understanding of Him, which is where most Christians appear to be coming from.

In Christ,

TBTHmmmm do you see the accounts of the Resurrection in the same,,,, light?

[thebluetriangle]

Hmmmm do you see the accounts of the Resurrection in the same,,,, light?
That's a good question, because, of course, it is Christianity's central belief! I believe it is possible that Jesus was resurrected. It is also possible that Jesus' spirit appeared to his disciples, projecting his image or being perceived as him, or that he was able to temporarily create a body for this purpose. Certainly something remarkable must have happened to inspire his followers. I'm just not sure what.

It's also possible that Jesus did not exist and that the story was in part a reworking of the myth of the God-man, who dies and is reborn - such as the myth of Osiris. This story has a powerful resonance within many cultures, and has appeared in many forms over the ages. So Jesus' twelve disciples are really the twelve tribes of Israel, etc, Jesus being a human metaphor for God, rather than a historical figure.

A third possibility is that there was a historical figure, who claimed to be the Messiah and who did indeed attract a group of disciples and perhaps even was crucified. Perhaps he was indeed an avatar (human manifestation of Deity). The Osiris myth was then slowly grafted onto the historical facts to create the figure we know today.

In Christ

TBT

[Hitch]

Frankly TBT your 'in Christ' signature is a bit much.

Take care

H

[thebluetriangle]

Frankly TBT your 'in Christ' signature is a bit much.

Take care

H

Please understand that I am only voicing possibilities, each of which is believed by one group or another.

Christ is real, Hitch. He may not be what you believe He is, though.

Do we want to move forward in our understanding of life or do we want to adhere to a first century understanding?

In Christ,

TBT

[Hitch]

Hmmmmmm

Renouncing the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the historical personhood of Jesus, the voracity of the Gospel accounts.,, common first century views. None of which are christian. Thats too bad , I hope you get over it at some point,but dont pretend you have some modern advanced thinking behind this drivel, its all been done.

[John Reece]

Hmmmmmm

Renouncing the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the historical personhood of Jesus, the voracity of the Gospel accounts.,, common first century views. None of which are christian. Thats too bad , I hope you get over it at some point,but dont pretend you have some modern advanced thinking behind this drivel, its all been done.

:smile:

It's a pleasure to read your pithy comments, Hitch.

Blessings,

John

[thebluetriangle]

:Hmmmmmm

Renouncing the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, the historical personhood of Jesus, the voracity of the Gospel accounts.,, common first century views. None of which are christian. Thats too bad , I hope you get over it at some point,but dont pretend you have some modern advanced thinking behind this drivel, its all been done.

Okay, I concede that these views may have been around for longer than I implied. Nevertheless, one of them may still be correct. I'd like to quote your admirer John Reece:

"Christians often claim to know more than it is possible to know. They forget how much of the Bible is symbolical.
- Archibald Robertson, I Corinthians (ICC, 1911)."

This is a moot question: just how literally is the Bible to be taken? There are many biblical passages that were never meant to be taken literally. Christians who believe we were literally created in six days and that the universe is 6000 years old, rather than about 15 billion years, are making some serious errors in their thinking. I'm not saying that there wasn't a virgin birth, or a resurrection; it's just that the Biblical account sounds strangely familiar to myths that the gospel writers could easily have been aware of.

Could these 'accounts' be symbolic too?

Finally, please don't attack me because you think my views are wrong. State your own position! I find it irritating and rather pathetic that Christians can spend so much time bickering over relatively petty doctrinal matters, and viciously attacking other Christians who they think have fallen into heresy (Get out the pitchforks - there's a heretic on the forum!) when we have so much in common. I don't care a fig whether Jesus' mother was miraculously impregnated or not. Nor do I think it literally happened - the story is symbolic.

Our real enemies are materialism, the persuasive but ulitmately sterile doctrine that the material world is all there is, and fundamentalism, the hiding place of the paranoid, the deluded and the small minded.

Between them they will destroy us - and we'll be too busy arguing among ourselves to notice.

Let's all argue for the existence of a loving Creator, a larger reality, a Grand Plan for our salvation, a meaning behind it all. Let's all live our lives as if people are more important than dollars, as if life is sacred rather than expendable, as if it actually matters what kind of world we leave our grandchildren. But let's not argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The angels look upon us even now, waiting for us to lift our heads and proclaim that salvation awaits every one of us, just as soon as we choose it. That is the Good News.

In Christ,

TBT

[Hitch]

Let's all argue for the existence of a loving Creator, a larger reality, a Grand Plan for our salvation, a meaning behind it all. Let's all live our lives as if people are more important than dollars, as if life is sacred rather than expendable, as if it actually matters what kind of world we leave our grandchildren. But let's not argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The angels look upon us even now, waiting for us to lift our heads and proclaim that salvation awaits every one of us, just as soon as we choose it. That is the Good News.


You have made your choice.. So just for the record;

There is no salvation, Grand Plan or Good News aside from the virgin birth, bloody death and bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Scriptures.

[Lizard]

This thread has clearly left the realm of orthodoxy. It has been moved to the unorthodox theology forum where such discussions belong

[Sheepdog]

Okay, I concede that these views may have been around for longer than I implied. Nevertheless, one of them may still be correct. I'd like to quote your admirer John Reece:

"Christians often claim to know more than it is possible to know. They forget how much of the Bible is symbolical.
- Archibald Robertson, I Corinthians (ICC, 1911)."

i strongly suspect this individual would not support the downright cookiness you are proposing.

This is a moot question: just how literally is the Bible to be taken? There are many biblical passages that were never meant to be taken literally. Christians who believe we were literally created in six days and that the universe is 6000 years old, rather than about 15 billion years, are making some serious errors in their thinking. I'm not saying that there wasn't a virgin birth, or a resurrection; it's just that the Biblical account sounds strangely familiar to myths that the gospel writers could easily have been aware of.

Could these 'accounts' be symbolic too?

well, here is a clue: if they sound a lot like historical narritives (which the Gospel cases do), then it is likely that they are in fact historical, and not symbolic.

even if one can show that they are strangly similar to pagan myths, that isn't sufficient to suggest copying or redacting of such myths. could just be coincidence, albeit an unusual one. but in reality, my observation has been that the parallels are not really there... there just hasn't been enough similarity when you get more detailed in looking at the comparisons. with a few exceptions of course, but the exceptions i know of are later, and thus it is more likely the copying is in the opposite direction.

Finally, please don't attack me because you think my views are wrong. State your own position! I find it irritating and rather pathetic that Christians can spend so much time bickering over relatively petty doctrinal matters,...

this is by no means petty. these are critical to the Christian worldview, without which Christianity is little more htan a waste of time. if the Res was supposed to be symbolic, how come it was so important to Paul that we believe it literally??? (1Cor. 15). remember that he wrote that even earlier than the Gospels (see here [link] (http://www.carm.org/bible/biblewhen.htm)).

and viciously attacking other Christians who they think have fallen into heresy (Get out the pitchforks - there's a heretic on the forum!)...

:mob:

... when we have so much in common.

we have nothing in common. my whole worldview revolves around the Son... Jesus' life, crucifixion for our sins, and his Resurrection for his vindication. to even doubt the Res and other facts about Jesus puts you in another category altogether.

I don't care a fig whether Jesus' mother was miraculously impregnated or not. Nor do I think it literally happened - the story is symbolic.

which only further examplifies the incompatibility of your views with ours.

Our real enemies are materialism, the persuasive but ulitmately sterile doctrine that the material world is all there is, and fundamentalism, the hiding place of the paranoid, the deluded and the small minded.

Between them they will destroy us - and we'll be too busy arguing among ourselves to notice.

they will no less destroy Christianity (if it were possible) than the theologic liberals like yourself. whether you like it or not, Christianity sinks or floats on the historical life of Jesus, including his death and Resurrection. without these things, Christianity is little more than another useless religosity.

Let's all argue for the existence of a loving Creator, a larger reality, a Grand Plan for our salvation, a meaning behind it all. Let's all live our lives as if people are more important than dollars, as if life is sacred rather than expendable, as if it actually matters what kind of world we leave our grandchildren. But let's not argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The angels look upon us even now, waiting for us to lift our heads and proclaim that salvation awaits every one of us, just as soon as we choose it. That is the Good News.

unfortunately, you are no less a threat to the Good News then the atheist, Muslim, or materialist. thus even as we speak, i am sharpening my pitch fork, and making sure my torch will light well.

[thebluetriangle]

i strongly suspect this individual would not support the downright cookiness you are proposing.

Nice to hear from you again!

I strongly suspect this as well, but I am interested in hearing the views of others.

well, here is a clue: if they sound a lot like historical narritives (which the Gospel cases do), then it is likely that they are in fact historical, and not symbolic.

That's not very convincing. People use circular reasoning to defend the authority of the Bible. The thought behind your statement is that because the Bible is 'God's Word', everything in it must be true. So all the historical accounts are accurate. But are they? Genesis tells us that we all descended from just two people, one of whom was created from the rib of the other (cloning?). I don't think that's possible - not without miraculous intervention. Do you take this account literally, or do you axccept that it is symbolic?

even if one can show that they are strangly similar to pagan myths, that isn't sufficient to suggest copying or redacting of such myths. could just be coincidence, albeit an unusual one. but in reality, my observation has been that the parallels are not really there... there just hasn't been enough similarity when you get more detailed in looking at the comparisons. with a few exceptions of course, but the exceptions i know of are later, and thus it is more likely the copying is in the opposite direction.

Well you can cry "coincidence" all you like, but the suspicion remains - as it should - that we have been sold a story, rather than told the truth. I'm not saying for a minute the Resurrection didn't actually happen as stated, just that I'm not sure.

this is by no means petty. these are critical to the Christian worldview, without which Christianity is little more htan a waste of time. if the Res was supposed to be symbolic, how come it was so important to Paul that we believe it literally??? (1Cor. 15). remember that he wrote that even earlier than the Gospels (see here [link]).

Actually, you've made a good point about Paul. Something hugely important must surely have happened. There are certain details about the story I find puzzling, though. If Jesus' body was literally resurrected, why did he make 'appearances', rather than simply rejoin his disciples?

Is Christianity invalid without the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection? As a moral code, it surely is valid. There is also the tricky point about Jesus not having a full set of chromosomes, if he had no human father. You could of course get round this by stating that with God all things are possible - and so I believe they are - but that's really a cop out. It seems more likely to me that these 'signs' were designed to raise the status of Yehoshua bin Yacob from Jewish prophet to Son of God. Or maybe we understand the term differently from the Jews?

we have nothing in common. my whole worldview revolves around the Son... Jesus' life, crucifixion for our sins, and his Resurrection for his vindication. to even doubt the Res and other facts about Jesus puts you in another category altogether.


Well, it seems you don't want me in your little gang! That doesn't bother me, though. I never had much time for that type.

Sheepdog, believing that Jesus Christ is the Lord of your life is not the same as taking the words of the Bible literally. It's not Christianity I disagree with, it's fundamentalism. Unlike you I'm prepared to include those with whom I strongly disagree, such as fundamentalists, because I know there are good psychological reasons why some people need that kind of literal understanding of scripture. I do believe, though, that this is a very simplistic understanding of a more complex reality. I also believe that fundamentalism is dangerous. So do most Christians, as long as it's applied to Muslim fundamentalists. Like a dog barking at its reflection, many Christians rail against these types, without seeing the obvious - they are no different.


which only further examplifies the incompatibility of your views with ours.


Oh please...let me join your gang! It looks so cool!


they will no less destroy Christianity (if it were possible) than the theologic liberals like yourself. whether you like it or not, Christianity sinks or floats on the historical life of Jesus, including his death and Resurrection. without these things, Christianity is little more than another useless religosity.

I'm not trying to destroy Christianity, I'm trying to understand it within my own experience.

unfortunately, you are no less a threat to the Good News then the atheist, Muslim, or materialist. thus even as we speak, i am sharpening my pitch fork, and making sure my torch will light well.

The mob is on the move! Time to head for the hills! Aeee....!

Here's a thought for you: the truth can't be threatened. If you do hold the truth higher than anything else (as do I) you will never feel threatened by the views of another. If you hold your own understanding of Scripture higher than anything else (including, by implication, the truth) you will always feel threatened. Sheepdog, you are one frightened person.

In Christ

TBT

[split_ph0t0n]

Ummm, I'm confused. Sheepdog claims himself a Christian, right? Have I misinterpreted his little symbols and such? This kid seems to have NO tolerance whatsoever for anyone with slightly different viewpoints than his own, and makes it known with INSULTS. To sum-up, in this thread alone, he has refered to those with differing views as "trolls", "tin-foil hat" wearers, "liberals" (an insult I take as a complement), "over-active imaginations" (an open mind is bad?), "Getto/street" eschatologists (get the fealing he has a superiority complex over people less fortunate than himself, yet?), "goofball" theorists, "crackpot conspiracy" theorists, and more! What's even worse is the total hypocrisy in which he does it. Or, is it sarcasm?

Yep, I found another one Sheepy. In addition to pointing out John 6:66 while bashing someone else for pointing out numbers in the Bible, you mentioned the rapture. The rapture, my friend, is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Yet, you put this in your sig: "Rapture Threat Level: Orange"? Even if it's nothing more than sarcasm, you need to realize that making fun of people isn't really Christ-like either. Not to mention that it's ridiculous to think that people could pick-up on the sarcastic intention within TEXT without you pointing it out.


I hope you see these words for what they are... a caring Christian brother trying to help you. You seem to have the attitude that you have the only real knowledge, while any differing opinions are grounds to stomp all over people. Disagreeing DOES NOT require insults. If this is how you treat fellow Christians, how do you treat those who believe there is no God? Did you forget the teaching about love, forgiveness, and salvation (Jesus) being the way?

And what's with Hitch? Is this Sheepdog's protege? BTW, you're not idolizing fictitious movie characters, are ya?

I do not completely agree with thebluetriangle, though. Jesus was real, lived life sinless, died on a cross while completely bearing the wrath of God in order to pay for our sins, and was resurrected the third day. Where I completely agree with thebluetriangle is here:


There were deeper meanings intended by many of the things Jesus said and did, as well as in other stories throughout the Bible. He taught us through parables as He lived THE parable. I pray that you will at least see that deep. I feel badly for those who can't/won't look deeper. I thank God for the blessing of being able to see some of the complexities of His Word.
The Bible, all of it, is of God. If you believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, why not the chapter and verse numbers? Do you believe this to be above God's power? Making sure some verse numbers were placed with particular words (to emphasize meaning for those of us who He already knew would look) would be mere child's play for the Creator of everything.
When attacked for simply sharing an IDEA (not even claiming it to be truth), thebluetriangle showed a sense of humor rather than anger. How many of us would do that? Honestly, I may very well have been kicked of the board by now if the OP were mine. I never did take kindly to forum bullies.
As for Sheepdog and Hitch... wolves in sheeps' clothing? There's some instruction about that in the Bible is there not? Ah, yes. Here it is... Matthew 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits." Hopefully, this does not refer to Sheepy and Hitchy. Maybe they just got off the path a little ways. No problem. Not too far to come back.

And, what's the problem with tbt's "in christ", Hitch? How's it "A bit much"?

Yours,
split_ph0t0n
proof-of-higher-dimensions

[Solly]

TBT, re the theme of this thread, what needs pointing out is that you need a controlling methodology for interpreting prophecy, before you go applying it. For instance, it was said that AIDS was a judgment from God. but on what basis is it said? It's ok to find something about plagues in scripture and say this is that, but unless there are rigorous controls on how you do that, then you are no better off than the purveyors of the Bible Code. As has been pointed out, if a prophecy comes equipped with a revealed interpretation, it is not for us to go beyond that. True, we might draw certain conclusions about how God deals with the sinful world, but not to the extent that we can say that this and that verse applies specifically to an event in our time. How many people over the centuries have spotted the antichrist on the basis of scripure?
Since those who prophesy in the church should be suject ot the prophets - ie there is a methodology for dealing with such things, what is your controlling methodology. Without one, it appears to be just whim.

[InChristAlways]

thebluetriangle
This is not atheism or materialism - there is indeed a God, a Creator, but we have to move on from a 1st century understanding of Him, which is where most Christians appear to be coming from. :wink:

split_ph0t0n Yep, I found another one Sheepy. In addition to pointing out John 6:66 while bashing someone else for pointing out numbers in the Bible, you mentioned the rapture. The rapture, my friend, is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Yet, you put this in your sig: "Rapture Threat Level: Orange"? Even if it's nothing more than sarcasm, you need to realize that making fun of people isn't really Christ-like either. Not to mention that it's ridiculous to think that people could pick-up on the sarcastic intention within TEXT without you pointing it out. Hi split. Actually that word can be found on the internet under "other words/newscasts" not in the Bible. LOL. Sad to see the Word being brought down to this "level".

http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html

You could say the Rapture index is a Dow Jones Industrial Average of end time activity, but I think it would be better if you viewed it as prophetic speedometer. The higher the number, the faster we're moving towards the occurrence of pre-tribulation rapture.

Slow prophetic activityRapture Index of 85 to 110: Moderate prophetic activity Rapture Index of 110 to 145: Heavy prophetic activity Rapture Index above 145:Fasten your seat belts :lol: :attn:

2002 High 179 2003 High 177 2004 High 157 2005 High 1552002 Low 161 2003 Low 133 2004 Low 135 2005 Low 152Record High 182 Record Low 57 24 Sept 01 12 Dec 93


Rapture Index 152
Net Change -1

Updated Feb 14, 2005

[InChristAlways]

Blue TriangleThat's not very convincing. People use circular reasoning to defend the authority of the Bible. The thought behind your statement is that because the Bible is 'God's Word', everything in it must be true. So all the historical accounts are accurate. But are they? Genesis tells us that we all descended from just two people, one of whom was created from the rib of the other (cloning?). I don't think that's possible - not without miraculous intervention. Do you take this account literally, or do you axccept that it is symbolic? This is a moot question: just how literally is the Bible to be taken? There are many biblical passages that were never meant to be taken literally. Christians who believe we were literally created in six days and that the universe is 6000 years old, rather than about 15 billion years, are making some serious errors in their thinking. I'm not saying that there wasn't a virgin birth, or a resurrection; it's just that the Biblical account sounds strangely familiar to myths that the gospel writers could easily have been aware of.

Could these 'accounts' be symbolic too?Adam was the first man, Jesus was the second man, so there are essentially "no men in between, correct?
I usually have to take off my "literal" glasses and put on my "spiritual" glasses to try and comprehend what God might mean in most parts of the Bible. How will a woman "encompass" a man and what is "new" about it? Thanks. jeremiah 31: 21 " Set up signposts, Make landmarks; Set your heart toward the highway, The way in [which] you went. Turn back, O virgin of Israel, Turn back to these your cities. 22 How long will you gad about, O you backsliding daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth -- A woman shall encompass a man." a man 01397 geber {gheh'-ber}
from 01396; TWOT - 310a; n m
AV - man 64, mighty 2, man child 1, every one 1; 68
1) man, strong man, warrior (emphasising strength or ability to fight)

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Solly,

TBT, re the theme of this thread, what needs pointing out is that you need a controlling methodology for interpreting prophecy, before you go applying it. For instance, it was said that AIDS was a judgment from God. but on what basis is it said? It's ok to find something about plagues in scripture and say this is that, but unless there are rigorous controls on how you do that, then you are no better off than the purveyors of the Bible Code. As has been pointed out, if a prophecy comes equipped with a revealed interpretation, it is not for us to go beyond that. True, we might draw certain conclusions about how God deals with the sinful world, but not to the extent that we can say that this and that verse applies specifically to an event in our time. How many people over the centuries have spotted the antichrist on the basis of scripure?
Since those who prophesy in the church should be suject ot the prophets - ie there is a methodology for dealing with such things, what is your controlling methodology. Without one, it appears to be just whim.


The truth is, I am no different from the 'purveyors of the Bible Code' you dismiss - because I am promoting something similar. The term 'Bible Code', carries dramatic overtones: I prefer the term 'numerical subtext'. What I have been led to (because I most certainly did not set out to find it) is the discovery that there is a hidden stratum of meaningful numbers within the Bible.

These numbers amount to what has been called "a second channel of communication", and they have apparently been placed there by an unknown intelligence - let's call this intelligence 'God' - working through the unconscious minds of the Bible's writers and translators. Because the writers were unaware of the existence of these numbers, the encoder is communicating directly to us, in a kind of lingua pura. The discovery and comprehension of this subtext amounts to a numerical exegesis of scripture - as was intended - which supplements the information in the Bible's plaintext.

The numerical patterns that underlie the plaintext of the Bible can be discerned by application of a modern version of a kabbalistic method of scriptural analysis known as 'gematria'. Hebrew gematria is based on the fact that Hebrew characters double as numbers, having values ranging from aleph = 1 to Tav = 800. The numerical value (gematria) of each character within a string of characters can then be summed to yield a gematria value for a word or passage. An equivalent scheme exists for Greek. What is less well known is that an English gematria also exists. The scheme I would like to show you is identical to the Hebrew and Greek systems and is as follows:

A = 1, B = 2, C = 3, D = 4, E = 5, F = 6, G = 7, H = 8, I = 9, J = 10
K = 20, L = 30, M = 40, N = 50, O = 60, P = 70, Q = 80, R = 90, S = 100
T = 200, U = 300, V = 400, W = 500, X = 600, Y = 700, Z = 800

Using this and similar schemes I have uncovered a hidden web of meaningful connections within the Bible. For instance, there are only three mentions of the word 'Immanuel' in the Bible. These are Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 8:8 and Matthew 1:23. Reading the chapter and verse numbers as single numbers we obtain, 714, 88 and 123. which sum to:

714 + 88 + 123 = 925

The hidden connection revealed by English gematria is this: Using the scheme of numeration outlined above:

Jesus Christ = 925

This is the very tip of a glittering iceberg that will sink forever the Titanic of materialism. It is nothing less than a frozen miracle, evidencing God's active presence in our world and providing an authenticating watermark on the pages of the Holy Bible, that can be witnessed by anyone who cares to do so, for all time.

In Christ,

TBT

[thebluetriangle]

Adam was the first man, Jesus was the second man, so there are essentially "no men in between, correct?
I usually have to take off my "literal" glasses and put on my "spiritual" glasses to try and comprehend what God might mean in most parts of the Bible.

So do I. The Bible is multilayered, with a simple literal meaning for children and deeper layers of meaning for those who are able and willing to comprehend. I once took part in a study group who spent several weeks on one chapter of one of Paul's letters and I was amazed at how much meaning could be extracted from it.

jeremiah 31: 21 " Set up signposts, Make landmarks; Set your heart toward the highway, The way in [which] you went. Turn back, O virgin of Israel, Turn back to these your cities. 22 How long will you gad about, O you backsliding daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing in the earth -- A woman shall encompass a man."

How will a woman "encompass" a man and what is "new" about it? Thanks.

Well, I'm no expert on this kind of analysis, but I could mean several things: the Virgin Birth, the Bride of Christ, the feminine (Jewish culture was very patriachal). It could also mean a man (Jesus) infused with the Holy Spirit, which is considered feminine by many. It would be 'new' because man was and is evolving and was now ready for the appearance of Jesus Christ, who would make a new covenant with God's people.

In Christ,

TBT