Yhvh

[Vivian]

Thought others might enjoy this insightful presentation of the Tetragrammaton -

YHVH (Yahweh)

The most ancient name for the Universal Spirit - or God - is Yod He Vau He, often written as YHVH. But this ancient name is far more than just what another religion calls their version of the concept of God, or even a name. In fact, it was not meant to really be just a 'name' at all. It is from before our time of human manifestation on Earth. It is the physical-word equivalent of an esoteric, vibrational Reality. It is an actual representation of the Universal Law that governs the primary pattern of all Creation.

The name itself is the key to Creation and the representation of the Universal Law of polarities and the replication/reproduction of all vibration. And remember, everything is vibration. Contained in this name for the One Life, then, is the actual formula for Creation, and the manifestation of all life within the One. Therefore this name of God is probably the single most significant metaphysical concept there is. It is the simplest thing in the Universe, but perhaps the most difficult to really understand by the uninitiated and unenlightened.

The name is represented by four letters of what is now called the Hebrew alphabet, which have numerical as well as symbolical meanings. However, the name is actually far more ancient than the Hebrew alphabet. Yod-He-Vau-He (YHVH) is allegedly pronounced 'Yohd-Hay-Vah-Hay'. This simple name was changed through time, translation, and misinterpretation, to many variations of the original, including within several religions. Consider the similarities Yahweh, Ya-Ho-Wah-Ho (YHWH), Ya-He-Wa, and Je-Ho-Vah, to name but a few. Jehovah and Yahweh stuck pretty well. YHVH is also sometimes referred to as the Tetragrammaton in magical and metaphysical circles.

The first part of the name, which was the positive polarity or Father aspect of the name of God, was Yod. See the similarity here even: Yod, God, Yod, God; not too hard to change through time and even pronunciation. It was thus that the Father principle, Yod, was distorted from Yod into God, which is also most often given a father-principle connotation: "My Father God and I are one." - Jesus.

The ancient teachings aver: "He who can pronounce this name properly opens the gates of heaven". This saying is vastly misunderstood. But even now, in some major religions it is forbidden to even attempt to pronounce YHVH. This is because in the early days of organised 'religion', certain 'priests' in positions of power, and who desired even more power, did not want the common people to know this great key. They wanted people to look in deference to the priests and so turn to their religion for their understanding of God and spiritual matters. This gave them great power and control, so they hid the name, changed the name, or made it forbidden to be used by anyone other than the 'high holy people'. However, chanting the name in meditation properly can create major changes in consciousness.

The symbolism and structure of Yod-He-Vau-He is simple, yet deeply profound. And when its few simple elements combine, they give birth to the entire complexity of life. In part, YHVH represents a perfectly simple pattern which is holographically present in all life, from the atom to the deity which is a solar system, and beyond. It also speaks of human procreation, and stellar/planetary procreation.

The first part: Yod, represents the positive (+), Sun, Light, the Father or Spiritual Seed principles. The first He represents the negative (-), not in the sense of 'bad' or 'evil', but in the sense of negative polarity, pure darkness, like that of the void of space, the womb, the receptive, feminine, Mother principles. Vau is the creative result of the meeting of both Yod and He in the place of interplay, intercourse. The union of the first two principles begets the Love-Child, Christ, a new creation, which is Vau.

Vau is its own principle, the principle of Love, which is androgynous. It therefore has within itself the same attributes as its Father and Mother, so it is actually both a Yod and He in its own microcosmic realm. In terms of cosmic frequency, Vau is on a vibrational plane an octave down from its parent-creators. It is also the place of conception of, and the birth of, the second He and Yod (the second He is placed before the second Yod because the polarities of creation are reversed in every new Birth; see diagram below).
So Vau begins the cycle (Yod-He-Vau-He) again, but in microcosmic form. The second He and Yod, then, are the offspring of Vau, the result of the interaction of the new microcosmic Yod and He of Vau.

[technomage]

Greetings, Vivian,

It is customary on TWeb to cite the source you are quoting from. Not only does that acknowledge the author, but it allows those who have an interest to explore the website you are quoting for further reading.

That being said, much of the "interest" here may not be from direct interest, but from interest in refuting or opposing the doctrine presented. However, I am fairly sure that you will have already anticipated that.

Justin

[kofh2u]

Greetings, Vivian,

It is customary on TWeb to cite the source you are quoting from. Not only does that acknowledge the author, but it allows those who have an interest to explore the website you are quoting for further reading.

That being said, much of the "interest" here may not be from direct interest, but from interest in refuting or opposing the doctrine presented. However, I am fairly sure that you will have already anticipated that.

Justin

Hi justin,
I am convinced that Vivian's sources are either intuitively know to her, for she evidences insight granted from the great Shekanah, or through contact with kabbalahistic doctrines to which you might refer.

The essence of what she tells us is bound in mathematical proofs, though, and need no sources, for numbers do not lie.

The premutations mathematically possible ar as follows, one for each letter of the Chaldean-Hebrew Celestrial Aphabet:

The Tetragram analogy, YHVH with sign place
over the head of Jesus on the Cross is not coincidental. INRI is fasinating to students of the Kabbalah, I am certain. They call these the Twelve Great Names, the Doubles, and the Three Mothers:

The Twelve Great Names:
1) HYHV IRIN Postulate 1
2) HYVH IRNI Postulate 2
3) HVHY INIR Postulate 3
4) HVYH INRI Postulate 4
5) HHVY IINR Postulate 5
6) HHYV IIRN Postulate 6
7) YHVH RINI Postulate 7
8) YVHH RNII Postulate 8
9) VHYH NIRI Postulate 9
10) VYHH NRII Postulate 10
11) YHHV RIIN Postulate 11
12) VHHY NIIR Postulate 12

The Seven Doubles:
13) VY NR N
14) YV RN W
15) HY IR I
16) HV IN R
17) VH NI Q
18) YH RI Ir
19) HH II C

The Three Mothers:
20) H I 0 (zero)
21) V N - (minus)
22) Y R + (plus)

[Vivian]

No problem, justin!

Here is the url :http://www.thenewcall.org/ri_yin_yang_pg2.htm

There isn't an author listed.

I also like the diagram of the Yod * He * Vau * He found there.


vivian

[technomage]

Hi justin,
I am convinced that Vivian's sources are either intuitively know to her, for she evidences insight granted from the great Shekanah, or through contact with kabbalahistic doctrines to which you might refer.
Hi, kofh2u,

I'm not quite sure what to make of your statement--I was not referring to the insight or veracity of the sources, merely to the citation of the source. (Which Vivian has done--and for which I thank you, Vivian).

As to the source website itself ... there is much there that agrees with my own path. This is not surprising, as Wicca was adapted from Ceremonial Magic, and Ceremonial magic relies heavily on the Kabbalah. My only posible objection to the material presented is that I think sometimes the Kabbalists complicate the issue a bit much ... but that's more of an esthetic issue than an actual objection. My own personal esthetic ideals are better suited to a more intuitive structure.

Justin

[technomage]

I also like the diagram of the Yod * He * Vau * He found there.
Indeed--it's similar to the tree of life, but less "over-analysed."

Justin

[Vivian]

Indeed--it's similar to the tree of life, but less "over-analysed."

Justin


Yes!

Do you find, justin, that instead of adding to your understanding, details, analyses, and interpretations added by men serve instead to obscure the simple Universal Truth that is found at the roots of many religious traditions?



vivian

[technomage]

Do you find, justin, that instead of adding to your understanding, details, analyses, and interpretations added by men serve instead to obscure the simple Universal Truth that is found at the roots of many religious traditions? For me personally, I do--but when I am teaching students, I also need to remember that sometimes those layers of complexity are necessary.

There is a time and a place for the complexity--the details, the analyses, and the interpretations. And there are those people for whom that complexity allows them a more complete understanding--kofh2u being a splendid example, if I understand his point of view correctly.

Additionally, as human beings we have much in common ... but even with all we have in common, there is much that differs. People have different temperments, different world-views, and the sense of esthetic is completely individual; as members of our individual cultures, we have much that is different. We learn differently: some peopel learn best by doing; some learn best by reading; some learn best by lecture, or conversation. A lot of that deals with temperment, culture, and individual taste--all of which are important fators to consider.

The analyses, the interpretations, the details--this adds a level of complexity that interferes with some people's understanding fo the Divine, but actually helps others. If kofh2u gains a better understanding of the Divine through the complexity, or if you gain a better understanding by keeping things simple, then I am glad that both approaches--as well as the myriad others we have not discussed here--are available.

Justin

[kofh2u]

Hi, kofh2u,

I'm not quite sure what to make of your statement--I was not referring to the insight or veracity of the sources, merely to the citation of the source. (Which Vivian has done--and for which I thank you, Vivian).

As to the source website itself ... there is much there that agrees with my own path. This is not surprising, as Wicca was adapted from Ceremonial Magic, and Ceremonial magic relies heavily on the Kabbalah. My only posible objection to the material presented is that I think sometimes the Kabbalists complicate the issue a bit much ... but that's more of an esthetic issue than an actual objection. My own personal esthetic ideals are better suited to a more intuitive structure.

Justin


Hello Justin,

The thing about intuition is that you just "know."

With intuition, you can not really explain. And, no one can explain for, or to you, either. It is sort of a "women's thing." Ask any husband.

Now, intuition is powerful, because it is the door to our Collective Unconscious. It is often correct, even clairvoyent. It is the path that connects us with the Sychronousity Jung spoke of.

The problem is: it is very hard to hold meaningful rational discussion, and logic is wasted. It is like when Christians voice their self assurance over the references in the NT, Jews will not hear a word they say.

The response I posted, listing the permutations of the Great Name, was to stimulate your intuition. You may sense that there is more here than in Soloman's Temple, some simple game among rabbi.

I can assure you that all the textbook references, and ancient wiseman you may respect, can not help you "know" whether what I tell you is true or no.

The Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel is secret, not because the rabbi will not tell us about it.

Not because they will not say: what it does, how it works, where it is validated as authenic.

The Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel is a mystery, to even the wisest and most respected rabbi, BECAUSE they just don't know.

I assure that I do, and that if your intuition has the power in your mind that it tells you I am correct, you will have no other support. There is none, except that, much has been written about the symbolism of alphabetic manipulations to verify that it does, indeed, have something to do with the matter.

And, of course, it has direct support in that it is delineated in Genesis itself, utilized to set examples for us in regard to how it works. It is geometrically modelled in the instruction for the tabernacle in Exodus. It is illustrated in Numbers. And, it is exposed by Ezekiel. It reappearance is referred to again and a again, for it is the Key that was given to Peter.

How's your intuition taking all this?

Zech4:10
For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven;

Matt. 3:12 Whose "fan" is in his hand,

Matt. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the "keys" of the kingdom of
heaven:

[technomage]

With intuition, you can not really explain. And, no one can explain for, or to you, either. It is sort of a "women's thing." Ask any husband.
Oh, admittedly. Oddly enough, that's one small benefit to my choice to explore spirituality in a format that valued the intuitional ... I spend too much time in the "intellectual realm," and Wicca has allowed me to balance the two.

The problem is: it is very hard to hold meaningful rational discussion, and logic is wasted.
Eh ... it certainly can be that way, and for many people it probably is. One of the goals of Wicca (as I understand it) is to be able to consciously "switch" from an intellectual to an intuitional format (or vice versa), and to be able to translate one's insights in either direction. Admittedly, that goal is way down the list, but it is on the list somewhere. :lol:

The Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel is a mystery, to even the wisest and most respected rabbi, BECAUSE they just don't know.

Hmmm ... again, I have to disagree--sort of. The things you listed are "baby steps"--and yes, I already know that you're aware of that. :wink: I have seen both Rabbis and Christian esotericists that would completely overwhelm either you or me with one brain lobe tied behind their back.

But the fundamental point for me is not knowledge. Knowledge is merely a tool--even perfect Gnosis is merely a tool. IMO, if you cannot put that knowledge into action in the material plane, then the knowledge is wasted. Case in point: you may know the words love, and agape, and ahav ... but unless you are able to "put wheels on it," that knowledge is wasted.

The symbols themselves vary from person to person, or from culture to culture. For instance, I can tell you a story that involves a tree, a woman, and a snake ... yet has nothing to do with the Garden of Eden. Yet that story is every bit as important to me as the story of the Fall is to you. We have, each, trained our minds and hearts (and souls) to respond to certain symbols, and the "power" is in the response, not in the symbol itself.

Which is why I, for the moment, respectfully decline to answer your question about Zerubbabel, the Fan, and the Keys ... these things mean different things to you than to me, and though neither meaning-set is wrong, my interpretation would not be terribly intelligible.

However, this also clarifies the disagreement we were having in the other thread: I know see that you were working with a different "symbol-set" than i was working with on those verses, and I apologize for trying to gauge your knowledge by my symbol-set.

Now, I fear I've very badly hijacked Vivian's thread (my apologies, Vivian). If you'd like to continue to explore symbols, I would be delighted to do so in another thread ... or even in this thread, if Vivian does not mind.

Justin

[kofh2u]

Oh, admittedly. Oddly enough, that's one small benefit to my choice to explore spirituality in a format that valued the intuitional ... I spend too much time in the "intellectual realm," and Wicca has allowed me to balance the two.


Eh ... it certainly can be that way, and for many people it probably is. One of the goals of Wicca (as I understand it) is to be able to consciously "switch" from an intellectual to an intuitional format (or vice versa), and to be able to translate one's insights in either direction. Admittedly, that goal is way down the list, but it is on the list somewhere. :lol:



Hmmm ... again, I have to disagree--sort of. The things you listed are "baby steps"--and yes, I already know that you're aware of that. :wink: I have seen both Rabbis and Christian esotericists that would completely overwhelm either you or me with one brain lobe tied behind their back.

But the fundamental point for me is not knowledge. Knowledge is merely a tool--even perfect Gnosis is merely a tool. IMO, if you cannot put that knowledge into action in the material plane, then the knowledge is wasted. Case in point: you may know the words love, and agape, and ahav ... but unless you are able to "put wheels on it," that knowledge is wasted.

The symbols themselves vary from person to person, or from culture to culture. For instance, I can tell you a story that involves a tree, a woman, and a snake ... yet has nothing to do with the Garden of Eden. Yet that story is every bit as important to me as the story of the Fall is to you. We have, each, trained our minds and hearts (and souls) to respond to certain symbols, and the "power" is in the response, not in the symbol itself.

Which is why I, for the moment, respectfully decline to answer your question about Zerubbabel, the Fan, and the Keys ... these things mean different things to you than to me, and though neither meaning-set is wrong, my interpretation would not be terribly intelligible.

However, this also clarifies the disagreement we were having in the other thread: I know see that you were working with a different "symbol-set" than i was working with on those verses, and I apologize for trying to gauge your knowledge by my symbol-set.

Now, I fear I've very badly hijacked Vivian's thread (my apologies, Vivian). If you'd like to continue to explore symbols, I would be delighted to do so in another thread ... or even in this thread, if Vivian does not mind.

Justin


KOFHY:
Hello Justin.

Justin:
Oh, admittedly. Oddly enough, that's one small benefit to my choice to explore spirituality in a format that valued the intuitional ... I spend too much time in the "intellectual realm," and Wicca has allowed me to balance the two.

KOFHY:
Wicca, as I understand it, is sort of worship of Mother Nature? I am
certain there is much more to it. But, it is hardly distinguishable
from the Father.

"Father Nature" is YHVH, but unlike Mother, HE is very logical, as can be seen in His mathematical analogy which is modeled in our 21st Century Science.

His thinking is the language of science. It explains and directs His
children, embracing and loving them, differently from Mother Nature's way.
Mother Nature emphasizes beauty and harmony and the prescription to go with her flow. She is friend, companion, the perfect glove to us, Her hand maidens. She is existentalistic, "now." She was made for our acvomodation, and she serves us well, today.

Father Nature runs the organization of the Universe. He warns us that
mommy is too emotional, too eager for her children to enjoy the pleasure of her earthly dwelling. She is now, a perfect fit. Beware.

Father has a Nature which is fundamental and consistent. He is Change. He is the only thing permanent.
He sees men as a team and a life force, whose only staying power in the face of Change is unity of purpose, which is Survival.

The answer of teamwork, in the task of survival, is threatened by intra-generational decisions. In good times, life in Mother Nature is great. The sins of that generation are laziness, carefree pleasure seeking, meaningless consumerism, wasted hours which were needed for the survival tasks. These are responsiblities for not our problems, butbfor those problems which will be faced many generations hence, etc.

An example is the present: we need wise reflections upon the problems in the American Social Security System. If this generation commits the sin of selfish disregard of the generations to come, survival will more challenging for mankind.

This is the difference between Father's nature and Mother's nature. Practicality, logic, facing realities, but placing the welfare of men's son above the temporal temptations is the Father's commandment.
To enjoy the wonders and pleasure of Mother Nature, to grow families and build houses, and lay as man and wife in bliss, these are the ways to enjoy Mother Nature's bounties, true?

Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, The rings, and nose jewels, The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils. And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. (Isa. 3:16-24)

Justin:
Eh ... it certainly can be that way, and for many people it probably
is. One of the goals of Wicca (as I understand it) is to be able to
consciously "switch" from an intellectual to an intuitional format (or vice versa), and to be able to translate one's insights in either
direction. Admittedly, that goal is way down the list, but it is on the
list somewhere. :lol:

KOFHY:
We could start, then, with Ezekiel's attention to the Four Jungian
Functions of Thinking! We start, especially noting, that these
subconscious mediators are the basis for how we act, in terms of our thinking, as measured by the Myers/Briggs Type Test, the MBTT. Here we see that our four modes are ordered in a hierarchy, Feeling (F), Intuitiveness (N), Sensation (S), and Thinking (T).
But what we are discovering just now, about ourselves, Ezekiel already knew and has passed down to us, from Father Nature.

Justin:
Hmmm ... again, I have to disagree--sort of. The things you listed are "baby steps"--and yes, I already know that you're aware of that. :wink:
I have seen both Rabbis and Christian esotericists that would completely overwhelm either you or me with one brain lobe tied behind their back.

KOFHY:
Charlatans?
The Kabbalah is defined by the most esteemed of rabbi everywhere as:
"The Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel."

I have asked them, in particular, during classes of instruction on the kabbalah.

My question, is: Is kabbalah a "secret," the Esoteria of Israel, which they will not tell, or do they, themselves, not know?
They say that they have faith that someone somewhere unknown to them, yes, to him it is revealed.

I take that answer as a no.

Justin:
But the fundamental point for me is not knowledge. Knowledge is merely a tool--even perfect Gnosis is merely a tool. IMO, if you cannot put that knowledge into action in the material plane, then the knowledge is wasted.

KOFHY:
And visa versa, of course. The Jews answer to all new insights is
smugly, "So?"

Matt. 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Justin:
The symbols themselves vary... the "power" is in the response, not in the symbol itself.

KOFHY:
Absolutely.
In this wise understanding you have answered the skeptic who wonders why the messiah ben David waits.
The 1.44 Billion Christians are now here. Out of this lot will come the
next powerful step forward for Christ, 144,000, one good man in 10,000 = 144,000 (Rev 7)

Justin:
Which is why I, for the moment, respectfully decline to answer your
question about Zerubbabel, the Fan, and the Keys ... these things mean different things to you than to me, and though neither meaning-set is wrong, my interpretation would not be terribly intelligible.

KOFHY:
I can appreciate your position on this.

Justin:
However, this also clarifies the disagreement we were having in the other thread: I now see that you were working with a different
"symbol-set" than i was working with on those verses, and I apologize for trying to gauge your knowledge by my symbol-set.

KOFHY:
Hmmm... no apology necessary. I am not particular interested in
displaying knowledge so much. No offense to you, and you have been
respectful and courteous, and informing, and interesting, but, pearl before swine gets trampled on. I believe I have found a pearl of great value, and I have bought totally into that field of study, theology.

For as the lightning (of the New Testament) cometh out of the east, (here in the Holy Lands), and shineth even unto the west, (upon all of Rome); so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For wheresoever the carcase (of the Truth) is, there will the eagles (of the New Order) be gathered together. (Matt. 24:27-28)

[kofh2u]

Thought others might enjoy this insightful presentation of the Tetragrammaton -

Vivian, as I read the presentation I found myself rather amazed in its induendo and suggestion.

The Christian community is hardly ready for the serious consideration of just how this Tetragrammation might fit into the gospel message. In fact, tgey are seeped in a tradition that serves the security of their real earthly shepherd, the minister.
Few are well informed enough to be confident in the understanding of scripture. All are prorammed by dogma that first serves to build loyalty to a particular church. In this instruction, they are trained to check the opinion of their priest as it concerns new insights.

Whereas the protection from denominational heresies may be warranted, they submit to control of their own indeo=pendence in thought. Their shepherds keep a tight grip on the flock expected to pay the church rent, and new idea from new people are considered potential threats of "rustling."

Consequentially, the specific use of the symbolic esoteria of Tetragram permutations is not ea ily disseminated. The application of these symbolic arrangement, though, is the hidden manna in Torah.

[Vivian]

For me personally, I do--but when I am teaching students, I also need to remember that sometimes those layers of complexity are necessary.

There is a time and a place for the complexity--the details, the analyses, and the interpretations. And there are those people for whom that complexity allows them a more complete understanding--kofh2u being a splendid example, if I understand his point of view correctly.

Additionally, as human beings we have much in common ... but even with all we have in common, there is much that differs. People have different temperments, different world-views, and the sense of esthetic is completely individual; as members of our individual cultures, we have much that is different. We learn differently: some peopel learn best by doing; some learn best by reading; some learn best by lecture, or conversation. A lot of that deals with temperment, culture, and individual taste--all of which are important fators to consider.

The analyses, the interpretations, the details--this adds a level of complexity that interferes with some people's understanding fo the Divine, but actually helps others. If kofh2u gains a better understanding of the Divine through the complexity, or if you gain a better understanding by keeping things simple, then I am glad that both approaches--as well as the myriad others we have not discussed here--are available.

Justin

True, justin, the layers of complexity are necessary for most people.

There are two paths that a soul can walk and very few walk the latter. The first carries people life after life through the analyses and interpretations of Truth. These souls are not ready for the direct and revealing Light of God and so must have It diluted and filtered so that it does not overwhelm them.

The other path is the one of ego death or transfiguration. The few treading this path are not interested in seeking spiritual knowledge in all its multifarious dilutions. Instead they crave God Himself, the unadorned Truth, the great Living Field, His Realm and Body. All knowledge for them becomes sign posts, offering clarity for the mind and a vehicle with which to share with others the revelations and insights gained along the way, but the knowledge itself fails to stir their soul for God alone can set their hearts on fire.

Both paths eventually lead Home and each person knows what is right for their soul. For those walking the latter path, though, it is a lonely journey. They are usually shunned in their search and if they reach their goal, the Light they then bring into the world brings persecution for It disturbs men while they live in their shadows.



vivian

[Vivian]

Oh, admittedly. Oddly enough, that's one small benefit to my choice to explore spirituality in a format that valued the intuitional ... I spend too much time in the "intellectual realm," and Wicca has allowed me to balance the two.


Eh ... it certainly can be that way, and for many people it probably is. One of the goals of Wicca (as I understand it) is to be able to consciously "switch" from an intellectual to an intuitional format (or vice versa), and to be able to translate one's insights in either direction. Admittedly, that goal is way down the list, but it is on the list somewhere. :lol:



Hmmm ... again, I have to disagree--sort of. The things you listed are "baby steps"--and yes, I already know that you're aware of that. :wink: I have seen both Rabbis and Christian esotericists that would completely overwhelm either you or me with one brain lobe tied behind their back.

But the fundamental point for me is not knowledge. Knowledge is merely a tool--even perfect Gnosis is merely a tool. IMO, if you cannot put that knowledge into action in the material plane, then the knowledge is wasted. Case in point: you may know the words love, and agape, and ahav ... but unless you are able to "put wheels on it," that knowledge is wasted.

The symbols themselves vary from person to person, or from culture to culture. For instance, I can tell you a story that involves a tree, a woman, and a snake ... yet has nothing to do with the Garden of Eden. Yet that story is every bit as important to me as the story of the Fall is to you. We have, each, trained our minds and hearts (and souls) to respond to certain symbols, and the "power" is in the response, not in the symbol itself.

Which is why I, for the moment, respectfully decline to answer your question about Zerubbabel, the Fan, and the Keys ... these things mean different things to you than to me, and though neither meaning-set is wrong, my interpretation would not be terribly intelligible.

However, this also clarifies the disagreement we were having in the other thread: I know see that you were working with a different "symbol-set" than i was working with on those verses, and I apologize for trying to gauge your knowledge by my symbol-set.

Now, I fear I've very badly hijacked Vivian's thread (my apologies, Vivian). If you'd like to continue to explore symbols, I would be delighted to do so in another thread ... or even in this thread, if Vivian does not mind.

Justin


This thread is here to discuss anything that we feel inspired to share with one another.

I too have walked through symbols and images and may find a knick knack here or there to add to a discussion.

Justin, i felt to share the following discussion with you. gopi is one of those who could completely overwhelm us with one brain lobe tied behind his back...

> TEV: Ok. Everyone claims they have the Truth. Even us. So what? Are
you claiming you know the Truth, or just the truth? If so, what is
>this Truth or truth?

gopi: It is perhaps wise to remember that, as a general rule, no one
believes what others may tell him, no matter how apparent the truth
or how much the person may protest that he accepts that truth. Only
those truths which are wrought out individually in the crucible of
experience really penetrate into the living consciousness and bear
fruit. Truth is an experiential entity. "To speak the truth they will
have closed mouths." - Nostradamus.

The mental conceptions and images we make keep us prisoners. No mental
image is the truth of anything, only its symbol, though the invisible,
impalpable Truth may shine through it. We must not mistake our own
thoughts and ideas about Truth for the ultimate reality.

> Universal Truth is the teapot from which the cups of Buddhism, Taoism,
> Hinduism, Christianity, etc. are poured. While certain cups may appeal
> to different folks, the tea remains the same and tastes the same.
>
> TEV: What is this Universal Truth? Or is the Truth a generalization
like what you have stated in these lines?
>

gopi: Truth is like a star; it does not appear except from behind the
obscurity of night. Truth does not disclose its desirability except to
those who first experience and become dissatisfied by the influence of
falsehood.

> Most believers are like people skating on the surface of an
> ice-covered pond. Believers usually skate on the surface of Truth
> without plunging into its icy, transforming depths.
>
> TEV: Again, what is this "truth"?

gopi: Have you ever plucked a rose from R, O, S, E? Look for the moon in the
sky, not in the water! If you desire to rise above mere names, words
and definitions, make yourself free from self. Become pure from all
attributes of self. Then you will know what is Truth.

> However, to
> experience the Truth that sets you free, you must immerse yourself
> into the innermost depths. There is no other way. And when you do this
> you will be outcast by the world, which loves not Truth but fantasy.
>
> TEV: I would call this "truth that sets you free" simply >truthfulness.

gopi: Truth is One, the Sages - who are authorized to do so - call it by
many names.

"The attainment of Truth is possible only when self is recognized as
an illusion. Righteousness can be practised only when we have freed
our mind from the passions of egotism. Perfect peace can dwell only
where all vanity has disappeared." - Lord Buddha.

> The lover of Truth who makes a living contact with the field of Truth
> will find harmony on the inside but never on the outside, for Truth
> and this world/this humanity are incompatible.
>
> TEV: Lover of truth? Sounds like my assertion of "truthfulness."
Field of truth? What is this truth you profess? Isn't this field of
>truth created by truthfulness?

gopi: Is God created by prayer?

We all hear fish tales about the big one that got away. Truth is like
that fish in that we think we catch it when in reality it catches us,
and then it usually eludes us again. But happy and blessed indeed is
the fisher who grapples with this fish, hauls it securely into his
boat, filets it and consumes it: thus merging its Essence into his own.

> Very few people really seek knowledge in this world - few really ask.
> On the contrary, they try to wring from the unknown the answers they
> have already shaped in their own minds - justifications,
> confirmations, forms of consolation without which they can't go on. To
> really ask is to open the door to a whirlwind. The answer may
> annihilate the question, and the questioner. That is why Truth is
> unpopular with the masses.
>
>
> TEV: Now we are discussing knowledge as "Truth"? Are you suggesting
that knowledge and "Truth" are the same thing?
>

gopi: Spiritual wisdom and Truth arise from the glory within and have very
little to do with either formal education or book learning. The wisest
members of our society - the mystics and saints - may be illiterate,
but their great and pure love for God opens the door to their
innermost heart-knowledge. It is this that is the pearl of great price.

External things (books, therapy, workshops, internet forums) help us
only if they match or resonate or vibrate with our innermost being.
They help us only to the extent that they remind us or mirror for us
the Truth held within ourselves. At a certain point, the external
things we have used in the past enable us to freely access our heart
knowledge. When this occurs we are free of external things and we need
them no longer. Our growth then comes totally from within.

The true measure of intelligence is the ability of a person to
re-evaluate what they believe to be true when additional and
clarifying knowledge is received, and then apply this knowledge in
their life so as to intimately embrace the higher truth that has been
revealed in the endeavor to receive still higher Truth.

Spiritual vision comes to many but liberating Vision comes only to the
few who come in contact with the living Truth.


A true story:

A spiritual master and a new student sat together in a grove.

"I wish to be truthful always and to eventually become a teacher of
the Truth," said the student.

"Are you prepared to be ridiculed, ignored and starving till you are
forty-five?" asked the master.

"I am. But tell me: What will happen after I am forty-five?"

"You will have grown accustomed to it."


Nobody can be said to have attained the pinnacle of Truth until a
thousand sincere people have denounced him for blasphemy.

"He who would seek Truth and proclaim it to mankind is bound to
suffer." - Kahlil Gibran.




vivian

[Vivian]

Vivian, as I read the presentation I found myself rather amazed in its induendo and suggestion.

The Christian community is hardly ready for the serious consideration of just how this Tetragrammation might fit into the gospel message. In fact, tgey are seeped in a tradition that serves the security of their real earthly shepherd, the minister.
Few are well informed enough to be confident in the understanding of scripture. All are prorammed by dogma that first serves to build loyalty to a particular church. In this instruction, they are trained to check the opinion of their priest as it concerns new insights.

Whereas the protection from denominational heresies may be warranted, they submit to control of their own indeo=pendence in thought. Their shepherds keep a tight grip on the flock expected to pay the church rent, and new idea from new people are considered potential threats of "rustling."

Consequentially, the specific use of the symbolic esoteria of Tetragram permutations is not ea ily disseminated. The application of these symbolic arrangement, though, is the hidden manna in Torah.


I too was at one time caught up in YHWH and the deeper meanings contained therein. If something keeps playing in our mind, then it is best to play it out. There may be something there that will break us through to a greater awareness, free our subconsious a little more. Perhaps even allow us to have a taste of the Divine.

Eventually though, these tastes of Home will cause us to realize just how unsatisfying the shadow chasing is.


vivian

[barryrob]

Thought others might enjoy this insightful presentation of the Tetragrammaton -

Hi Vivan

You may find this thread of intrest:-

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46739&page=1&pp=16 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46739&page=1&pp=16)

Let me know what you think?

A thought or two:-

We should keep in mind that names then had real meanings to the Hebrews and were not just “labels” to identify an individual as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning “Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change being made because of God’s purpose concerning Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name to throw light on his purpose toward Israel and in future days to all peoples. Moses’ going to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him meant being the representative of that One, and the greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak would be determined by or be commensurate with that name and what it represented. (Compare Ex 23:20, 21; 1 Sam 17:45.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.

God’s reply to Moses (Exodus 3:13 "Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?) in Hebrew was: Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yah´, from which the word Ehyeh is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14, ftn.

This is an additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (Ex 3:15; compare Ps 135:13; Ho 12:5.) The name Jehovah comes from the Hebrew verb ha·wah´, “become,” and actually means “He Causes to Become.” This reveals Jehovah as the One who, with progressive action, causes himself to become the Fulfiller of promises. Thus he always brings his purposes to realization. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.



Barryrob

[technomage]

Justin:
Oh, admittedly. Oddly enough, that's one small benefit to my choice to explore spirituality in a format that valued the intuitional ... I spend too much time in the "intellectual realm," and Wicca has allowed me to balance the two.

KOFHY:
Wicca, as I understand it, is sort of worship of Mother Nature?
There are some Wiccans who see it so, and that is the popular conception, but Wicca, while being technically monotheistic, is functionally duotheistic. We worship a God and a Goddess as co-equal representatives of the Creative Power--"Mother Nature" is an extreme reification of Wiccan theology--nature is created, and while we believe that both the God and Goddess are immanent (meaning that They indwell nature), They are also transcendant (meaning that They are outside of nature).

But, it is hardly distinguishable from the Father.
Well ... it is distinguishable, even though it is no different. And that's not the paradox it seems to be--but to break free from the paradox, we must delve into some Wiccan theology.

There is one Creator, but none of us are capable of understanding the Creator: we are limited by our finite, fallable understanding. So we--each of us--create "symbols" for the Creator which allow us a measure of understanding. These symbols, or "God Names," allow us a measure of insight ... but at the same time, those symbols also have limitations: namely, these symbols are culturally driven, and reflect the biases and limits of the culture in which they originate.

Sidebar: Historical Example
The symbolism invoked under the name YHVH started out as the tribal God of the Hebrews ... and you can readily see in the early stories in the Tanach that the stories of YHVH were strictly for them, and the other Gods were for other cultures. When Israel was taken to Assyria, and Judah was taken to Babylon, the Jews (for this is now the name of the members of all twelve tribes) developed the idea that theirs was the only true God, and that all other Gods were false.

When James, John, Peter, and Paul started preaching Jesus Christ, at first this caused great confusion to the worshippers of YHVH: how could YHVH, who has always been One, have a Son? So Christianity became divided from Judaism, and most of the Jews rejected the concept that Jesus could be the Son of God (though some Jews converted). But when that split occurred between Judaism and Christianity, and the two faiths went their separate ways, the Christians started developing separate symbols to represent the Ultimate Reality--hence the doctrine of the Trinity (among many other doctrines).

And so when I speak of the God and Goddess, or you speak of YHVH, we are both speaking of the Creator--to the best of our understanding on this side of the Veils.

Nature, on the other hand, is the Creation: while I certainly feel that Creation has been granted, for a while, a portion of the Creator's power, and while I certainly hold Nature in great regard, to worship "Mother Nature" is to worship the Creation. In Christianity (as in Judaism), this is strictly condemned: it is not quite condemned in Wicca, but many Wiccans regard it as an inchoate and incomplete form of worship. We do not worship the Moon or the Sun, any more than you worship four letters: these are but symbols.

KOFHY:
We could start, then, with Ezekiel's attention to the Four Jungian
Functions of Thinking! We start, especially noting, that these
subconscious mediators are the basis for how we act, in terms of our thinking, as measured by the Myers/Briggs Type Test, the MBTT. Here we see that our four modes are ordered in a hierarchy, Feeling (F), Intuitiveness (N), Sensation (S), and Thinking (T).
Let me ask you, Kofhy--do you sometimes use the philosophic "Four Elements" when you discuss creation? Do you, at other times, speak of the 116 or so chemical elements? Both of these are "symbol sets," and you decide which symbol-set you will use in your discussions depending on the context of the discussion.

Similarly, you have applied the MBTT types to the Vision of the Four Creatures--absolutely nothing wrong with that, even though I highly doubt that Ezekiel understood it in quite that pattern. That does not mean that I feel your symbolism is wrong--indeed, it is obviously useful, in that it provides you with additional insight. To say, in a mythic sense, that this is the Wisdom of Ezekiel is perfectly accurate: to say, in a historical sense, that this is what Ezekiel was speaking about is only going to result in confusion. And that confusion will utterly and completely prevent others from understanding your insights in an intelligible fashion.

KOFHY:
Charlatans?
The Kabbalah is defined by the most esteemed of rabbi everywhere as:
"The Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel."

I have asked them, in particular, during classes of instruction on the kabbalah.

My question, is: Is kabbalah a "secret," the Esoteria of Israel, which they will not tell, or do they, themselves, not know?
They say that they have faith that someone somewhere unknown to them, yes, to him it is revealed.

I take that answer as a no.
Not all Rabbi study the Kabbalah--indeed, most do not. But of those who do, most will not discuss it with Gentiles. That does not make them charlatans: that makes them people who have had much stolen from them in history, and who do not wish to have this stolen as well.

And I can rather understand that: by their understanding, the Kabbalah was a gift, given specifically to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the last 2000 years, they have had everything else stolen from them and "perverted" in ways that they cannot accept: who can blame them if they do not choose to discuss their secrets with Gentiles?

But at the same time, while the specifics of the Kabbalah may not be willingly divulged, the Kabbalah is not a "monopoly" on gaining insight into the nature of the Creator. The teachings of orthodox Christianity allow insight ... the teachings of Wicca allow insight ... the teachings of Buddha, or Baha u'Llah, or ... any one of thousands of others.

Kofhy, why do you struggle after one path as if it is the only path, then when denied assert that those who follow that path are "charlatans?" You are placing these people as a barrier between yourself and the Creator, and--from what I can see--you present yourself as one who is upset, disappointed, or perhaps even angry. If my perception is accurate, then I can only advise you to let go. Let go of your upset. Let go of your disappointment. Let go of your anger. And if you can let go of these things, you will discover that your insight comes much clearer.

And if I am wrong ... well, there may still be a problem, even if that's not the specific problem. We all see through a glass darkly, as it were. Please, my friend, strive to make sure that your disagreements with other people is not a problem in your relationship with God.

Justin

[kofh2u]

KOFHY:
Hi Vi and et al.

1) Did you know that Nostradamus was a Hebrew-Christian AND a Kabbalahist?

2) I will try to respond to the cues of Vivian below. My effort will be,
IMO. to give a concrete substance to the language.

Vivian:
There are two paths that a soul can walk and very few walk the latter.

KOFHY:
The two paths seem to be a matter of attitude. One of the two overall behavioral attitudes, that is the objective behind life behavior, is self-centeredness. This is a very supportable point of view, that life is your own. That in the most basic analysis, having only one life to live as far as one is consciously aware, it is your "property" and your
only opportunity to invest it.
Whatever it is that you want from life, go for it.

The other outlook is that you are unselfish to a vice. Your outlook is
the through extreme altruism life will actually best serve you as you
serve it. Bread cast upon the waters of humanity are promised to return. The evil of Chas. Mason does not deny the coining of his
phrase, "What goes around, comes around."

Vivian:
The first carries people life after life through the analyses and
interpretations of Truth.

The other path is the one of ego death or transfiguration.

KOFHY:
Egoistic self-centerness is the first of these.
The egoism is often masked in a life after life quest.
Many hold to the promise of a faith in life afterwards, absence anything
but the most unbelievable of metaphysical convictions. It often is the case, that really, the fear of death, the mystery of death, the
intolerable idea of not having a tomorrow, excuses the fantasy of a self delusion. These people read interpretations of Truth, perhaps in Hebrew scripture, Egyptian Hieroglyphics, or the Vedas writings specifically for what they call a "salvation" for such an end. The symbolic Pyramid of Ghiza is a monument to such human fear.

Others can long ignore such fear of death, perhaps face it, and accept
it. They fill their life with a fickled attention to urges, desires, drives, and such. Close examination will bear out that they serve a master of the mind in one or two archetypally dominate psychic states.
They are bound up in the quests to satisfy the Pleasure Principle, or
maybe in a need to know driven by Superego curiosity of the self esteem of their own brilliance.

The altruistic path, the other way.

But the true altruistism, distinguishable from the doctrines of behavior that create the dogma of salvation from death, life after life, the fear of God instill in man; that altruism needs faith in the bread of life, returning good with joy abundant.

In order to die in the innate attitude of Egoism which is rooted in genetics, one must be re-born, as if starting again, using one's
perception, informed and open to options.
This is not the transfiguration. It is the road to transfiguration, to
clarity, to Total Consciousness.

Vivian:
These souls are not ready for the direct and revealing Light of God and so must have It diluted and filtered so that it does not overwhelm them.

KOFHY:
Or, God must have an audio-visual example, an illustration of the way to behave. Man must evolve into a new form, internally, in his
pre-cognitive outlook, by the workmanship of God's nature molding processes.
In other words, a model of what men must esteem and become needs be set before him.

Vivian:
... ego death or transfiguration.
The few treading this path are not interested in seeking spiritual
knowledge in all its multifarious dilutions.

KOFHY:
I define "spiritual" as meaning mental. The electromagnetic phenomena of thinking, the total absence of matter in this pure energy, is the connection with the Absolute, pre-Big Bang, Total Energy that transformed into the material Universe, the "became" and which is "becoming."
You would recognize this as Cosmic Consciousness, still, like limited
human Consciousness, now, a product of this "thinking."

Vivian:
Instead they crave God Himself,...

KOFHY:
I define God, a very over used and misleading term, as Reality. Reality
is our God. Reality is the God of the living, for if we fail to serve
Reality, we surely die.

Vivian:
...the unadorned Truth, the great Living Field, His Realm and Body.

KOFHY"
Truth is defined as that which we think which conforms to Reality.
Truth is the son of Reality. If you have seen the Truth, you have seen the Reality.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees (as Reality) his Father doing, because whatever the Father (who is Reality) does the Son (in knowledge we unddrstand is Truth) also does


Vivian:
All knowledge... (Truth about Reality)... for them becomes sign
posts,... (platonic Forms that are perhaps invisible but, nevertheless,
really there)... offering clarity for the mind... (yes... offering
sanity in that the false and unreal is crazy)... and a vehicle with
which to share with others the revelations and insights gained along the way,... (this is seen also in the discipline of Science)... but the knowledge,,, (particularly the cold science and the materialism of
technology)... itself fails to stir their soul... (I always refer to the
Hebrew and Greek when this word soul appears. Soul = psyke' in the
Greek)... for God.. (are we on the same wavelength, God = Reality?)... alone can set their hearts on fire... (Absolutely! The reality is that we are grass. The Reality is that in serving one master, perhaps the pleasure Principle, ot the SUperego need to know, we deny "life" to those other aspects of our psyche which we deny, ignore, and ultimately,
by such abuse, kill.)


Vivian:
Both paths eventually lead Home and each person knows what is right for their soul.

KOFHY:
Well, I will admit as far as this, we will all reach the point of
transcendence into the next species advancement for mankind. We will all come "home" to the next reality of a "flood" that is psychic, but is just as destructive to those who have made no psychic advancements, no psychic development or maturation.

Vivian:
For those walking the latter path, though, it is a lonely journey.

KOFHY:
The word "Holy" actually is Hebrew for separated out. It would seem
lonely, to those who seek comraderie in a Libidinal gregariousness.
But, I remind you of my opinion, in over attention to the Libidinal
demands for other people in one's life we deny other aspects of our
"soul." The sports enthusiasts come to mind, or rather, to the
mindlessness of their intense spectator-ism.

Vivian:
They are usually shunned in their search... (true, they are "holy" and
separated out from a madding crowd quite unperturbed by their
absence.)... and if they reach their goal,... (which is personal
meaningfulness?)... the Light they then bring into the world... (in
their reflections and proselytizing to a totally foreign and indifferent
audience?)... brings persecution... (that is exactly how they are to
conclude that they have reached to right decisions... Matthew 5?)... for It disturbs... (other?).. men while they live in their... (the Holy
Ones?).. shadows... (Hmmmm... yeah, there seems to be a Law of Egoism:
No good deed will go unpunished.").

[kofh2u]

There are some Wiccans who see it so, and that is the popular conception, but Wicca, while being technically monotheistic, is functionally duotheistic. We worship a God and a Goddess as co-equal representatives of the Creative Power--"Mother Nature" is an extreme reification of Wiccan theology--nature is created, and while we believe that both the God and Goddess are immanent (meaning that They indwell nature), They are also transcendant (meaning that They are outside of nature).


Well ... it is distinguishable, even though it is no different. And that's not the paradox it seems to be--but to break free from the paradox, we must delve into some Wiccan theology.

There is one Creator, but none of us are capable of understanding the Creator: we are limited by our finite, fallable understanding. So we--each of us--create "symbols" for the Creator which allow us a measure of understanding. These symbols, or "God Names," allow us a measure of insight ... but at the same time, those symbols also have limitations: namely, these symbols are culturally driven, and reflect the biases and limits of the culture in which they originate.

Sidebar: Historical Example
The symbolism invoked under the name YHVH started out as the tribal God of the Hebrews ... and you can readily see in the early stories in the Tanach that the stories of YHVH were strictly for them, and the other Gods were for other cultures. When Israel was taken to Assyria, and Judah was taken to Babylon, the Jews (for this is now the name of the members of all twelve tribes) developed the idea that theirs was the only true God, and that all other Gods were false.

When James, John, Peter, and Paul started preaching Jesus Christ, at first this caused great confusion to the worshippers of YHVH: how could YHVH, who has always been One, have a Son? So Christianity became divided from Judaism, and most of the Jews rejected the concept that Jesus could be the Son of God (though some Jews converted). But when that split occurred between Judaism and Christianity, and the two faiths went their separate ways, the Christians started developing separate symbols to represent the Ultimate Reality--hence the doctrine of the Trinity (among many other doctrines).

And so when I speak of the God and Goddess, or you speak of YHVH, we are both speaking of the Creator--to the best of our understanding on this side of the Veils.

Nature, on the other hand, is the Creation: while I certainly feel that Creation has been granted, for a while, a portion of the Creator's power, and while I certainly hold Nature in great regard, to worship "Mother Nature" is to worship the Creation. In Christianity (as in Judaism), this is strictly condemned: it is not quite condemned in Wicca, but many Wiccans regard it as an inchoate and incomplete form of worship. We do not worship the Moon or the Sun, any more than you worship four letters: these are but symbols.


Let me ask you, Kofhy--do you sometimes use the philosophic "Four Elements" when you discuss creation? Do you, at other times, speak of the 116 or so chemical elements? Both of these are "symbol sets," and you decide which symbol-set you will use in your discussions depending on the context of the discussion.

Similarly, you have applied the MBTT types to the Vision of the Four Creatures--absolutely nothing wrong with that, even though I highly doubt that Ezekiel understood it in quite that pattern. That does not mean that I feel your symbolism is wrong--indeed, it is obviously useful, in that it provides you with additional insight. To say, in a mythic sense, that this is the Wisdom of Ezekiel is perfectly accurate: to say, in a historical sense, that this is what Ezekiel was speaking about is only going to result in confusion. And that confusion will utterly and completely prevent others from understanding your insights in an intelligible fashion.


Not all Rabbi study the Kabbalah--indeed, most do not. But of those who do, most will not discuss it with Gentiles. That does not make them charlatans: that makes them people who have had much stolen from them in history, and who do not wish to have this stolen as well.

And I can rather understand that: by their understanding, the Kabbalah was a gift, given specifically to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the last 2000 years, they have had everything else stolen from them and "perverted" in ways that they cannot accept: who can blame them if they do not choose to discuss their secrets with Gentiles?

But at the same time, while the specifics of the Kabbalah may not be willingly divulged, the Kabbalah is not a "monopoly" on gaining insight into the nature of the Creator. The teachings of orthodox Christianity allow insight ... the teachings of Wicca allow insight ... the teachings of Buddha, or Baha u'Llah, or ... any one of thousands of others.

Kofhy, why do you struggle after one path as if it is the only path, then when denied assert that those who follow that path are "charlatans?" You are placing these people as a barrier between yourself and the Creator, and--from what I can see--you present yourself as one who is upset, disappointed, or perhaps even angry. If my perception is accurate, then I can only advise you to let go. Let go of your upset. Let go of your disappointment. Let go of your anger. And if you can let go of these things, you will discover that your insight comes much clearer.

And if I am wrong ... well, there may still be a problem, even if that's not the specific problem. We all see through a glass darkly, as it were. Please, my friend, strive to make sure that your disagreements with other people is not a problem in your relationship with God.

Justin

Justin, your intuition is working over time.

First, I am not interested in the opinions or the assistance of Jewish Kabbalahidts.

Second, I am none of your suspected "problems," neither rebliffed nor angry.

In regard to the Charliton remsrks between us, I am merely suggesting that the rabbi who teach classes on the subject, particularly at the University level, and to only Jews in attendence have admitted that the Kabbalah is a secret by definition and none of the "practicing" rabbi will identify a master in this discipline. Msny, many Jews read about it, research all sorts of commentary and search old manuscripts. Some, like Berg in LA, offer services and attract people like madonna/guy richie. The services are like the Pentacostal meetings.

On the other hand, Nostradamus was a converted Jew, a Christian who claimed to practice Kabbalah. We have none since to my knowledge with his fame for accuracy.

If you have a name, if you have someone who apply Kabbalah, as you said yourself, the useless knowledge not put into practice is 8nimpressive.

Again, all I am saying is that Jewish though supports a "Kabbalah." It remains undefined, never explained in the details of its practice, no admitting authority or respected expert. My on.y reason for mentioninbg this is the Christian believe tnere is a "hidden manna."

My hypothesis remains, simply:

These, Kabbalah and the Hidden Manna, are one in the same.

First, I am merely establishing the facts, as far as I know them. Both Jews and Christian speak of these things, they zre orthodox, not magic no roccult.

Secondly, as you already upstaged any "show 'n Tell, srating that:
Even if,... IF someone DID actually have an understanding and knowledge of these matters, ... "So?"

So, who cares? Who cares you said, unless it can be applied?

Am I wrong here?

Are you not on both d]sides of my commentary?

You believe there are wise Jews who protect their unannounced and unapplied wisdom. Tney have your respect, effortlessly, they are sharo enough to mzke "my head and yours spin in embarassment by comparision."

And, on the other hand, IF I do have a contributory knowledge well beyond anything I have found among these wisest of the wise, "So?

See what I mean? Probably not. It is OK for tbree reasons.

1) I don't care.
I didn't discover this "hidden manna" to get some external reward. And, I didn't set out to disvover any such a thing. In just came to me in contemplation of the Torah. It sort of confirmed certain fundamental assumption I had made about the Torah even before I began reading it. So, for me it was like validation of my preconceived notions.
Again, I don't care. I don't care whether others are interested or would like more information, there seems nothing in for me.

2) Though there is nothing in FOR me, there could be the normal human punishment Vivian alluded to, that those who separate thdmselves from the run of the milll "experts" in disciplines like this might get "hung from a tree."

3) The third reason that might not occur to people is that would be a lot of work to "educate" oyhers. Especially, when these others all have vested interest in NOT agreeing with the lessons.

Imagine the reaction of rabbi, not if they were the "students" of what I would have to say.
I mean, imagine the reaction of the rabbi AND now the Christian priests and ministers if a large body of people actually were very, very interested!

John 10:20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

Nevertheless, there is something about this "hidden manna" which seems would be very useful to our present society.
And, something else about it too, in that it seems very ecumenical. Something about it, relevent to the various beliefs held concerning all religious thought. Considering the bias against Judaism, and the resistance to support the sovereigny of Israel, the terrorism of an aroused Islam prepared to do the work of God in ridding infidels from the earth, the growing arrogance of a technological science community, the cabala of this "hidden manna" does scream out to be advertised widely.

Rev. 2:17 He that hath an ear, (listen to this clear meaning), let him hear what the Spirit, (the Sevenfold Psyche), saith unto the churches, (that is, the evolving body of Christianity); To him that overcometh, (he who sublimates beyond the archaic interpretations of scriptural misunderstandings), will I give to eat of (Kabbalah), the hidden manna, (the hidden organizational pattern in Genesis), and will give him a white "stone," and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[kofh2u]

Hello Justin,

I re-read one of your posts and I wanted to comment:

Justin:

..., you have applied the MBTT types to the Vision of the Four Creatures--absolutely nothing wrong with that, even though I highly doubt that Ezekiel understood it in quite that pattern. That does not mean that I feel your symbolism is wrong--indeed, it is obviously useful, in that it provides you with additional insight. To say, in a mythic sense, that this is the Wisdom of Ezekiel is perfectly accurate: to say, in a historical sense, that this is what Ezekiel was speaking about is only going to result in confusion. And that confusion will utterly and completely prevent others from understanding your insights in an intelligible fashion.

KOFHY:
Actually, Ezekiel seems to be speaking on as many as seven levels all and one at tge same time.

I won't go off and hit on every facet of that staement, but I will just say, here are few sentences to make my point.

The weird surrealistic descriptions in Ezekiel are on the level of fantasy, for one thing. They are intriguing, parallel universe type "science fiction" kind of reports. They were meant to serve the same purpose as our science fiction, too, IMO.

Interesting sci-fi four faced creatures, even invoking "flying saucer" ET speculation certainly assured Ezekiel a best seller book of the month readership.

Then, intuitive references to the interact of these spirit-like creatures hovering over the walls of the Temple must have been/still is taken by the deeply absorbed religious community for what Ezekiel literally says, Spirits before God.

And, yet these weird creatures are a little out of sinc with the practical instructions of emulating Christ and loving God and neighbors.

Symbolically the four faces raise another perspective ignored in all commentary I have read. The face of the Lion is found on the Tribal Banner of Judah. So be the case with the other three faces, eachnfound on a banner, Ox for Ephraim, Face for Ruben, and Eagle for Dan. These banners were planted in the sand to mark the vour compass directions and orient the locagion and direction of the Tabernacle, itself. This implies dome logical foundation for the relationship between the Book of Ezekiel and that of Numbers. The logical connection implying something more under the surface is compounded. Each of the four beasts has six wings attached, and each banner marks the distinct camping area of three tribes, perhaps in analogy, the men and the women give symbolic connection with six wings: north, south, east, west.

But there is way more reasons to add new and quite different perspectives because Ezekiel 37, the dry bones that come magically together also is connected to this symbolism, too. There is much more here than Solomon's Temple being approached by flying saucer like four faced creatures.

It turns out, after much reflection, that this is all useful in exaining the re-establishment of a lost priesthood, the ancestors of todays Cohanim active in the synagogues today. But that jump also raises the subject of a relationship between Ezekiel, Numbers, Revelation, Genesis, (for the Cherubim appear there also), and the Kabbalah of which we have been speaking.

[Vivian]

Hi Vivan

You may find this thread of intrest:-

http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46739&page=1&pp=16 (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46739&page=1&pp=16)

Let me know what you think?

A thought or two:-

We should keep in mind that names then had real meanings to the Hebrews and were not just “labels” to identify an individual as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning “Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change being made because of God’s purpose concerning Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name to throw light on his purpose toward Israel and in future days to all peoples. Moses’ going to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him meant being the representative of that One, and the greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak would be determined by or be commensurate with that name and what it represented. (Compare Ex 23:20, 21; 1 Sam 17:45.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.

God’s reply to Moses (Exodus 3:13 "Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?) in Hebrew was: Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yah´, from which the word Ehyeh is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14, ftn.

This is an additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (Ex 3:15; compare Ps 135:13; Ho 12:5.) The name Jehovah comes from the Hebrew verb ha·wah´, “become,” and actually means “He Causes to Become.” This reveals Jehovah as the One who, with progressive action, causes himself to become the Fulfiller of promises. Thus he always brings his purposes to realization. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.



Barryrob


Hi Barryrob,

I checked out the thread and link you provided there and can throw this information into the pot...

There is a school of thought that the Semetic NT texts in Aramaic and Hebrew are more accurate versions of the NT than their Greek counterparts (believing that many of the original writings were in Aramaic and Hebrew and not Greek as more commonly accepted). Several English translations have been made from these texts and which refer to Jesus as YHWH Yehoshua.

James Trimm and others have formed a concept of a greater and lesser YHWH, corresponding to God in the OT and Jesus in the NT.

Here is a link to one of his writings if you are interested -

http://www.nazarene.net/_halacha/Nazarenes_and_the_name.html

What do I think?

I actually found it difficult to look throught the internet for a link to Mr. Trimm's writings, indicating there is no inspiration in following this line of thought. If you or any one finds that such seeking brings you closer to God, then it is something that should be pursued. But if it is just an intellectual exercise, then maybe it is a waste of time to speculate on such things.



vivian

[Vivian]

From The Great Fall of the Spirits....

"Endless times before the material creation, first there arose - the spiritual world! For God is Spirit - and His creations are spiritual worlds!

At the beginning of all existence, GOD alone existed - HE is a Spirit which fills all infinity. HE is, in HIMSELF, pure love - and love always strives to give itself away, to love - but also has the desire to be loved.

Since God stood completely alone with His love, but He also possessed the Wisdom and Power, in order to fulfill His desire for love, He thus created for Himself a first spirit-being who, in miniature, corresponded completely to His Being. HE, until then, the only Being in infinity, thus placed a small part out of Himself into the spiritual space. Therewith existed now a second being - the first created spiritual being - for God Himself is an un-created spiritual being, who is without beginning and end.

Thus God created a being for Himself to whom He could give His love, but who could also return his love to God, which led to mutual bliss. The relationship between God and His, by Him created, spiritual being had, certainly, through the difference between both - an existing disadvantage which lay therein, that God could see His created being, but it could not see God. This, however, is unalterable, for God fills the whole of infinity with His Being, thus He is infinite - but a created spiritual being is not infinite, since it is only a part out of God. However, the infinite could, and can, see the finite, the finite or created (being) could not and cannot see the Infinite.

Notwithstanding this, God, as well as the first spiritual being, were filled with, for us unimaginable, bliss - since God loaned to this being the ability to create countless, similar to himself, spiritual beings. This first spirit or, as we could say - angel, received from God the name Lucifer, which means - the light-bearer. He should have, or better said, was allowed to carry the light of love into the infinite spaces of the Godhead.

Thus Lucifer was something like a woman to a man, He was the positive counter-pole to God - the emphasis lies upon positive and counter-pole. Thus both were positive - the difference existed only in that God was un-created, but Lucifer was created by God - and nothing negative could come out of God - thus also Lucifer was positive from the beginning."


vivian

[Vivian]

Not all Rabbi study the Kabbalah--indeed, most do not. But of those who do, most will not discuss it with Gentiles. That does not make them charlatans: that makes them people who have had much stolen from them in history, and who do not wish to have this stolen as well.

And I can rather understand that: by their understanding, the Kabbalah was a gift, given specifically to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the last 2000 years, they have had everything else stolen from them and "perverted" in ways that they cannot accept: who can blame them if they do not choose to discuss their secrets with Gentiles?

But at the same time, while the specifics of the Kabbalah may not be willingly divulged, the Kabbalah is not a "monopoly" on gaining insight into the nature of the Creator. The teachings of orthodox Christianity allow insight ... the teachings of Wicca allow insight ... the teachings of Buddha, or Baha u'Llah, or ... any one of thousands of others.

Justin

I understand that Kaballah was originally a gift of Light given to Israel, but as with all Light that comes into this world, in the hands of men it has been distorted. Original Kaballah may still exist but be well hidden from the masses - inlcuded the present day Jews.

There are excerpts from what is accessible, particularly from the Zohar, that resonate, but overall the documents available to the public have a dark vibe.

vivian

[Vivian]

KOFHY:
Hi Vi and et al.

Hi david.


KOFHY:
The two paths seem to be a matter of attitude. One of the two overall behavioral attitudes, that is the objective behind life behavior, is self-centeredness. This is a very supportable point of view, that life is your own. That in the most basic analysis, having only one life to live as far as one is consciously aware, it is your "property" and your
only opportunity to invest it.
Whatever it is that you want from life, go for it.

The other outlook is that you are unselfish to a vice. Your outlook is
the through extreme altruism life will actually best serve you as you
serve it. Bread cast upon the waters of humanity are promised to return. The evil of Chas. Mason does not deny the coining of his
phrase, "What goes around, comes around."

Yes. One path is an "I" oriented path and the other is selfless. The first, though, will eventually lead to selflessness, for the ego must die before one can Unite with the Divine.

Selflessness, while easy to conceptualize is most difficult to actualize. In fact it cannot be done without the workings of Grace, for we have become so ego identified that we are unable to imagine our True Self as separate from it.


KOFHY:
Egoistic self-centerness is the first of these.
The egoism is often masked in a life after life quest.
Many hold to the promise of a faith in life afterwards, absence anything
but the most unbelievable of metaphysical convictions. It often is the case, that really, the fear of death, the mystery of death, the
intolerable idea of not having a tomorrow, excuses the fantasy of a self delusion. These people read interpretations of Truth, perhaps in Hebrew scripture, Egyptian Hieroglyphics, or the Vedas writings specifically for what they call a "salvation" for such an end. The symbolic Pyramid of Ghiza is a monument to such human fear.

Others can long ignore such fear of death, perhaps face it, and accept
it. They fill their life with a fickled attention to urges, desires, drives, and such. Close examination will bear out that they serve a master of the mind in one or two archetypally dominate psychic states.
They are bound up in the quests to satisfy the Pleasure Principle, or
maybe in a need to know driven by Superego curiosity of the self esteem of their own brilliance.

From the Origin of Evil:

Perfect gems in mines, perfect flowers, perfect animals, and human soul-luminaries residing on perfect planets were thus created, brought forth as material manifestations from the heavenly astral and causal realms. That is why in the Christian Bible we find the ideal Adam and Eve communing with God, so naturally and simply in the abundant Garden of Eden. After a harmonious existence - a perfect expression of form, health habits, and modes of existence on the stage of time without suffering, disease, cruel accidents, or painful premature death - all created forms were to return to God. Just as rainbows come and go, or as motion-picture forms can be created for entertainment and electrically switched on or off at will, so all created things were to exist as pleasant, mutually entertaining pictures on the screen of space and time and were to resolve into their pure essence in God at the end of their cycle, after the drama of that period was perfectly played.



God made man immortal; to reign on earth as an immortal. Satan's evils bound man with the consciousness of mortality. Man was to behold the drama of change with a changeless immortal mind; and after seeing change dancing on the stage of changelessness, he was to return to the bosom of Eternal Blessedness by consciously dematerializing his physical form. If Adam and Eve, the symbolic first beings had not succumbed to the temptations of Satan, and their descendants had not allowed themselves to be influenced by hereditary ignorance, modern man would not have to experience heartrending painful deaths through accident and disease. Man, being out of tune with God, has lost the power of dematerialization given to the original human beings, so he lives with the frightening prospect of the movie of life being prematurely cut off before he has finished seeing the whole perfect picture of his changeful life.


Satan has blinded us to our True Eternal Identity, deluding us into thinking we are these ego personalities that glimmer and fade cycling between pleasure and pain and eventually dying. Hence the entire motivation for our existence has become self - self survival, self pleasure, self vanity.

The altruistic path, the other way.

But the true altruistism, distinguishable from the doctrines of behavior that create the dogma of salvation from death, life after life, the fear of God instill in man; that altruism needs faith in the bread of life, returning good with joy abundant.

In order to die in the innate attitude of Egoism which is rooted in genetics, one must be re-born, as if starting again, using one's
perception, informed and open to options.
This is not the transfiguration. It is the road to transfiguration, to
clarity, to Total Consciousness.

I find many of your words, david, similar to those found in DK's From Bethlehem to Calvary. Are you familiar with this writing? I'd be happy to send it to you if you are interested.

The physical being is merely a vehicle for the fallen soul which itself carries the karmic imprints where the innate attitude of egoism is rooted. This debt is carried from life to life, personality to personality.

While our consecration and devotion to walking the path is essential, it is not our effort that leads to the rebirth of Christ within and finally transfiguration and liberation. The efforts that you speak of can be summarized as making the choice for selflessness in every thought, word, and deed. But that does not make us selfless. These efforts will allow our selfish habits to be revealed and through not feeding them, through denying self, they will eventually dissolve. The point of crucifixion though, or death of the ego, is an act of Grace, for we cannot kill that which we think of as our selves. We can only allow it to become a living sacrifice.

From FBC -

"The Way from the Birth at Bethlehem to the Crucifixion Mount is a hard and a difficult one, but it is trodden with joy by the Christ and by those whose consciousness has been attuned to His. The joy of physical life is changed into the joy of understanding, and new values, new desires and a new love replace the old.
The Birth at Bethlehem marked the beginning of the long way of tragedy of the Savior. It made Him "a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief." (Isaiah, LIII, 3.) It was the beginning of the end, and marked His initiation into higher states of consciousness. This is apparent in the Gospel story."


KOFHY:
Or, God must have an audio-visual example, an illustration of the way to behave. Man must evolve into a new form, internally, in his
pre-cognitive outlook, by the workmanship of God's nature molding processes.
In other words, a model of what men must esteem and become needs be set before him.

Humanity cannot continue in its Evolution until it has been saved, liberated from this material prison. Only sons of God Evolve, not egos.


KOFHY:
I define "spiritual" as meaning mental. The electromagnetic phenomena of thinking, the total absence of matter in this pure energy, is the connection with the Absolute, pre-Big Bang, Total Energy that transformed into the material Universe, the "became" and which is "becoming."
You would recognize this as Cosmic Consciousness, still, like limited
human Consciousness, now, a product of this "thinking."

Perfecting our "I" identity will not bring liberation. The ego will never become, for it is just dust, like blades of grass, glimmering and fading, eventually falling into nonexistence.




KOFHY:
I define God, a very over used and misleading term, as Reality. Reality
is our God. Reality is the God of the living, for if we fail to serve
Reality, we surely die.


KOFHY
Truth is defined as that which we think which conforms to Reality.
Truth is the son of Reality. If you have seen the Truth, you have seen the Reality.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees (as Reality) his Father doing, because whatever the Father (who is Reality) does the Son (in knowledge we unddrstand is Truth) also does


Vivian:
All knowledge... (Truth about Reality)... for them becomes sign
posts,... (platonic Forms that are perhaps invisible but, nevertheless,
really there)... offering clarity for the mind... (yes... offering
sanity in that the false and unreal is crazy)... and a vehicle with
which to share with others the revelations and insights gained along the way,... (this is seen also in the discipline of Science)... but the knowledge,,, (particularly the cold science and the materialism of
technology)... itself fails to stir their soul... (I always refer to the
Hebrew and Greek when this word soul appears. Soul = psyke' in the
Greek)... for God.. (are we on the same wavelength, God = Reality?)... alone can set their hearts on fire... (Absolutely! The reality is that we are grass. The Reality is that in serving one master, perhaps the pleasure Principle, ot the SUperego need to know, we deny "life" to those other aspects of our psyche which we deny, ignore, and ultimately,
by such abuse, kill.)

Yes, Reality is really All there is. God is differentiated from the Father God as being all that is Divine, while the Father God is the Absolute Intelligence or Reality, for all else is creation and will eventually be dissolved back into the One Absolute Spirit, even Truth. So yes, Truth, like Love, and Wisdom come forth out of the One Reality.

The Father God, the Absolute Intelligence, the Cosmic Consciousness exists behond all vibratory creation. The only begotten Son or Christ Consciousness is the image of the Father or Cosmic Consciousness throughout creation.


KOFHY:
Well, I will admit as far as this, we will all reach the point of
transcendence into the next species advancement for mankind. We will all come "home" to the next reality of a "flood" that is psychic, but is just as destructive to those who have made no psychic advancements, no psychic development or maturation.

The flood is as real within as it is without. As above so below. There will a physical purgation of 3D earth just as there is an inner flood for purging within our own consciousness.

The earth, as is all that was created, is also a spiritual being.



KOFHY:
The word "Holy" actually is Hebrew for separated out. It would seem
lonely, to those who seek comraderie in a Libidinal gregariousness.
But, I remind you of my opinion, in over attention to the Libidinal
demands for other people in one's life we deny other aspects of our
"soul." The sports enthusiasts come to mind, or rather, to the
mindlessness of their intense spectator-ism.

Vivian:
They are usually shunned in their search... (true, they are "holy" and
separated out from a madding crowd quite unperturbed by their
absence.)... and if they reach their goal,... (which is personal
meaningfulness?)... the Light they then bring into the world... (in
their reflections and proselytizing to a totally foreign and indifferent
audience?)... brings persecution... (that is exactly how they are to
conclude that they have reached to right decisions... Matthew 5?)... for It disturbs... (other?).. men while they live in their... (the Holy
Ones?).. shadows... (Hmmmm... yeah, there seems to be a Law of Egoism:
No good deed will go unpunished.").


The goal that is reached is Oneness with the Universal Christ. Such Unity will allow Light to flow into this realm through the servant vehicle. This Light varies in intensity of vibration. It can either be joyous to bathe in or uncomfortable, even painful as it's burning fire purges away the selfish junk that is revealed. Most though are not able to bear such a purgation and turn away.


vivian

[Vivian]

There are some Wiccans who see it so, and that is the popular conception, but Wicca, while being technically monotheistic, is functionally duotheistic. We worship a God and a Goddess as co-equal representatives of the Creative Power--"Mother Nature" is an extreme reification of Wiccan theology--nature is created, and while we believe that both the God and Goddess are immanent (meaning that They indwell nature), They are also transcendant (meaning that They are outside of nature).


Well ... it is distinguishable, even though it is no different. And that's not the paradox it seems to be--but to break free from the paradox, we must delve into some Wiccan theology.

There is one Creator, but none of us are capable of understanding the Creator: we are limited by our finite, fallable understanding. So we--each of us--create "symbols" for the Creator which allow us a measure of understanding. These symbols, or "God Names," allow us a measure of insight ... but at the same time, those symbols also have limitations: namely, these symbols are culturally driven, and reflect the biases and limits of the culture in which they originate.

Sidebar: Historical Example
The symbolism invoked under the name YHVH started out as the tribal God of the Hebrews ... and you can readily see in the early stories in the Tanach that the stories of YHVH were strictly for them, and the other Gods were for other cultures. When Israel was taken to Assyria, and Judah was taken to Babylon, the Jews (for this is now the name of the members of all twelve tribes) developed the idea that theirs was the only true God, and that all other Gods were false.

When James, John, Peter, and Paul started preaching Jesus Christ, at first this caused great confusion to the worshippers of YHVH: how could YHVH, who has always been One, have a Son? So Christianity became divided from Judaism, and most of the Jews rejected the concept that Jesus could be the Son of God (though some Jews converted). But when that split occurred between Judaism and Christianity, and the two faiths went their separate ways, the Christians started developing separate symbols to represent the Ultimate Reality--hence the doctrine of the Trinity (among many other doctrines).

And so when I speak of the God and Goddess, or you speak of YHVH, we are both speaking of the Creator--to the best of our understanding on this side of the Veils.

Nature, on the other hand, is the Creation: while I certainly feel that Creation has been granted, for a while, a portion of the Creator's power, and while I certainly hold Nature in great regard, to worship "Mother Nature" is to worship the Creation. In Christianity (as in Judaism), this is strictly condemned: it is not quite condemned in Wicca, but many Wiccans regard it as an inchoate and incomplete form of worship. We do not worship the Moon or the Sun, any more than you worship four letters: these are but symbols.


Let me ask you, Kofhy--do you sometimes use the philosophic "Four Elements" when you discuss creation? Do you, at other times, speak of the 116 or so chemical elements? Both of these are "symbol sets," and you decide which symbol-set you will use in your discussions depending on the context of the discussion.

Similarly, you have applied the MBTT types to the Vision of the Four Creatures--absolutely nothing wrong with that, even though I highly doubt that Ezekiel understood it in quite that pattern. That does not mean that I feel your symbolism is wrong--indeed, it is obviously useful, in that it provides you with additional insight. To say, in a mythic sense, that this is the Wisdom of Ezekiel is perfectly accurate: to say, in a historical sense, that this is what Ezekiel was speaking about is only going to result in confusion. And that confusion will utterly and completely prevent others from understanding your insights in an intelligible fashion.


Not all Rabbi study the Kabbalah--indeed, most do not. But of those who do, most will not discuss it with Gentiles. That does not make them charlatans: that makes them people who have had much stolen from them in history, and who do not wish to have this stolen as well.

And I can rather understand that: by their understanding, the Kabbalah was a gift, given specifically to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In the last 2000 years, they have had everything else stolen from them and "perverted" in ways that they cannot accept: who can blame them if they do not choose to discuss their secrets with Gentiles?

But at the same time, while the specifics of the Kabbalah may not be willingly divulged, the Kabbalah is not a "monopoly" on gaining insight into the nature of the Creator. The teachings of orthodox Christianity allow insight ... the teachings of Wicca allow insight ... the teachings of Buddha, or Baha u'Llah, or ... any one of thousands of others.

Kofhy, why do you struggle after one path as if it is the only path, then when denied assert that those who follow that path are "charlatans?" You are placing these people as a barrier between yourself and the Creator, and--from what I can see--you present yourself as one who is upset, disappointed, or perhaps even angry. If my perception is accurate, then I can only advise you to let go. Let go of your upset. Let go of your disappointment. Let go of your anger. And if you can let go of these things, you will discover that your insight comes much clearer.

And if I am wrong ... well, there may still be a problem, even if that's not the specific problem. We all see through a glass darkly, as it were. Please, my friend, strive to make sure that your disagreements with other people is not a problem in your relationship with God.

Justin


I found much wisdom in this response, justin. Your words are not for just one individual but for all of us.

Thank you.

vivian

[kofh2u]

I understand that Kaballah was originally a gift of Light given to Israel, but as with all Light that comes into this world, in the hands of men it has been distorted. Original Kaballah may still exist but be well hidden from the masses - inlcuded the present day Jews.

There are excerpts from what is accessible, particularly from the Zohar, that resonate, but overall the documents available to the public have a dark vibe.

vivian

1:
Yes,...

"Original Kaballah may still exist but be well hidden from the masses - inlcuded the present day Jews."

2:True,...
"...excerpts from what is accessible, particularly from the Zohar, that resonate."

The Zohar is a 12th Century attempted reconstruction of the Kabbalah.

3:
A clue to the failed insights of what has reached us from writings of the past is that..."overall the documents available to the public have a dark vibe."

4: But, certain information has come forward with the attention given to this subject.

I consider certain things to be "reports" of Kabbalah. I mean, even the uninitiated observer could pass forward statements that inform. They probably did not know "how" the esoteric art worked, nor "What" was its secret. But, in symbols, in reports of alphabetical symbolic manioulaions of some sort, in certain graphics that have reached us they supply ideas that might support hypothesis that can occur o us.

5: Fertile ground for the Charlatins I mentioned. Justin winched at such a disrespect for so esteemed men, rabbi all.

Nevertheless they hardly convince me, even the Berg Family which maintains a world-wide Kabbalahistic society enjoying a faddish growth in interest and embracing world class gentiles like Madonna ans Guy Richie do not impress me.

All they offer beyond the most traditional of prayer services,... all they can expose that is impressive to a secular audience not already "spell-bound" by t
eir head spinning dialogue and induendo is "a dark vibe."

6: I ask you and particularly Justin, what would you expect as an answer from the Berg's of LA Kabbalah, fRom Madonna herself is you asked,..."So?"

7: This is what I would demand from those who say they can produce "the secret" of the Esoteric Knowledge of Israel:

Where is it explicitly explained in Scripture, itself, in the details?


8: FOR BARRYROB:

Your exposition on YHVH is correct. Howver, it does not allude to the mystery that is The Great Tetragrammation.

The Jews have always refused to speak any "name" derived from these four letters. They refer to it as four initials, a monogram, albeit using four leters, tetra.

How do you explain this rationally, for there is always an excusable idea that may or may not be submitted as a response. The concrete and ration hypothesis that names have real, and really informative meanings can not now be reduced to so commentary that is speculative.

This IS like a monogram, only specifically noting not a normal two letter monogram, but one of four letters, a tetrgram. Then, it is NOT a name at all, is it?

[technomage]

True, justin, the layers of complexity are necessary for most people.
Hmmm. Speaking as one who has been a teacher, I'll agree that some layers of complexity are necessary for most people. Most people would not benefit from as complex a study as David has undertaken--but I think even David will agree that he goes far more in depth than most people.

There are two paths that a soul can walk and very few walk the latter.
Vivian, here I must disagree ... but before I do, let me state that my disagreement is not "I'm right, and you're wrong," but more along the lines of "I've come to a different conclusion, let me present it to you and see what you think." My conclusion may be wrong ... indeed, both of our conclusions may be wrong ... but I offer it for insight in case it is useful.

It is my conclusion that at the end of every life is dissolution. The drop of rain that reaches the sea does not retain its individuality, no matter the insights (or lack) or the behavior within the life-span of that drop as a discrete entity. Similarly, when a person dies, that person is rejoined with the Creator ... no matter the Gnosis that they have obtained, or their behavior during life.

There is much evidence presented against that conclusion--past live memories, doctrines of various religious, or what have you. But think of it this way: if we are all "sparks" from the fire of the Creator, then how can the creater cast off parts of His?Her?Its? Self, and consign those parts to eternal torment, or destruction, or near-eternal incarnation?

The other path is the one of ego death or transfiguration. The few treading this path are not interested in seeking spiritual knowledge in all its multifarious dilutions.
But is not this insight your own "multifarious dilution?" Are not my insights yet another "multifarious dilution?" Vivian, none of us can have that craving for God satisfied in direct, unadorned form ... we would not comprehend the experience were we to be granted it.

Be at ease, Vivian ... I am not calling your quest into doubt. Yet I must wonder if you have set yourself a more difficult path than is necessary. You cite the "loneliness" of your path ... but I assure you, that path does not need to be lonely.

Justin

[technomage]

Justin, your intuition is working over time.
Perhaps it is ... indeed, I certainly hope it is. But I saw something in the words that you chose that made me concerned: if what I saw was inaccurate, then I am relieved.

For the rest, however ... David, I'll confess, I studied Kabbalah for three years (in conjunction with my training in Wicca), and consider myself to be nothing more than a rank student in the art. Yet your understanding is quite different from mine. It's different enough that I wonder if the two of us in a conversation of symbols would not sound like two people who have no common language, resulting in a babble full of sound and fury (to coin a phrase. :lol:)

So I'll leave you and Vivian to discuss symbols and paths. But I wish you both a fond adieu, for now.

Justin

[kofh2u]

Perhaps it is ... indeed, I certainly hope it is. But I saw something in the words that you chose that made me concerned: if what I saw was inaccurate, then I am relieved.

For the rest, however ... David, I'll confess, I studied Kabbalah for three years (in conjunction with my training in Wicca), and consider myself to be nothing more than a rank student in the art. Yet your understanding is quite different from mine. It's different enough that I wonder if the two of us in a conversation of symbols would not sound like two people who have no common language, resulting in a babble full of sound and fury (to coin a phrase. :lol:)

So I'll leave you and Vivian to discuss symbols and paths. But I wish you both a fond adieu, for now.

Justin

Thank you for the interesting responses. Fair well.

I agree that you experience in kabbalah school would be useless for the most part in dialogue with me. I too investigated those avenues, long after I had indepdndently discovered a great deal of information to support an insight.
The connection between my investigations and Kabbalah was a discovery that included the shock of finding that the Jews even respected such a system, and one they remembered historically but not explicitly.
If your "schooling" was like my own, the rabbi introduced us to readings Vivian might feel very comfortable with. And, perhaps the erudite discourses on symbolic trees, aphics, and definitions of terms might have appealled to you. But, for me the sessions were just lamentations for something long lost and even undescribable. The rabbi postured great respect, in prayer tremendois reverence. Rabbi Schmidt from NYC held a mini shiva for me in distain because I asked him what was the specific evidence (in the Bible) that there was a Kabbalah and was there a hint of its mechanics!

He hung his head. He stood silent for @ 5 minutes (a very long time before a class of 35 students). He appeared to be praying for me. Upon finishing, without a glance towards me, he resumed as if he had not previously responded to my hand held up for the question.


I assure you my question was rhetorical for had he answered either way, I was and am prepare to thoroughly demonstrate the entire disciple right in the Bible itself. It is not the words or verses that expose the secret manna, but the literary construction or a literary contrivance just beneath the surface of the text itself.

I am also impressed that you have been a teacher. I wonder what subjects your were trained in, perhaps language?

[Vivian]

Hmmm. Speaking as one who has been a teacher, I'll agree that some layers of complexity are necessary for most people. Most people would not benefit from as complex a study as David has undertaken--but I think even David will agree that he goes far more in depth than most people.


Vivian, here I must disagree ... but before I do, let me state that my disagreement is not "I'm right, and you're wrong," but more along the lines of "I've come to a different conclusion, let me present it to you and see what you think." My conclusion may be wrong ... indeed, both of our conclusions may be wrong ... but I offer it for insight in case it is useful.

It is my conclusion that at the end of every life is dissolution. The drop of rain that reaches the sea does not retain its individuality, no matter the insights (or lack) or the behavior within the life-span of that drop as a discrete entity. Similarly, when a person dies, that person is rejoined with the Creator ... no matter the Gnosis that they have obtained, or their behavior during life.

There is much evidence presented against that conclusion--past live memories, doctrines of various religious, or what have you. But think of it this way: if we are all "sparks" from the fire of the Creator, then how can the creater cast off parts of His?Her?Its? Self, and consign those parts to eternal torment, or destruction, or near-eternal incarnation?


But is not this insight your own "multifarious dilution?" Are not my insights yet another "multifarious dilution?" Vivian, none of us can have that craving for God satisfied in direct, unadorned form ... we would not comprehend the experience were we to be granted it.

Be at ease, Vivian ... I am not calling your quest into doubt. Yet I must wonder if you have set yourself a more difficult path than is necessary. You cite the "loneliness" of your path ... but I assure you, that path does not need to be lonely.

Justin


Hello Justin,

Your words are similar to those of Sri Dava Prakasha http://www.templeoffreedom.org/Pages/TheBook.html. Dava is one of the few offering uncompromised teachings in this present age, and so they can be helpful although there is error in his understanding.

The collective consciousness of humanity does have difficulty in accepting verities pointing to long durations of time, but if we understand that time itself is illusionary - God existing outside of it - we can begin to see the passage of time from an Eternal perspective.

Several points, justin, are offered here for your consideration.

The first is the two natures of mankind. The fallen/personality nature and the Divine spark nature. The former does mercifully dissolve at the end of each life and the latter will also dissolve, but only after it has evolved back into Oneness with the Divine.

The second point that is offered is free will. The Divine sparks of God are indeed God Himself and as such have free will. God respects Himself and He respects His Law, so these sparks have been free to choose to operate in accordance to His Will or in discord. It has been our choice to operate in discord hence we as Divine sparks have become imprisoned in this world of Lucifer's and our own creation.

But God's Law of Mercy and Love does intervene in our free will choices and so through the workings of Christ He will rescue His sparks, He will momentarily override our free will with His Divine Will.

For if you look around, even considering the words you have shared here, mankind desires this world, and since God grants us the desires of our heart mankind is born again and again into this fallen material existence. If mankind desired to dissolve into Oneness with God, he indeed would. But the lust for individualization is too strong.

This is the first path that most of mankind is walking, the path that encompasses desire for sensual fullfilment in the material world. The second is for those who no longer have desire for this world, but desire God. Even they know though that at some level within there remains desire for individualization so moving on from this world is a mere step in evolution towards dissolving into Oneness with our Creator.

Also, justin, because of man's desire for the material world, reincarnation is an act of Mercy. Man is so attached to this world by the end of his life, as seen in his attempts to stay here as here as long as possible, forced physical death and the subsequent reincarnation gives him a new personality and new life to try again for liberation.

So we can then see, justin, that the sparks of God are indeed drops of rain that will eventually dissolve into the Oneness of the Sea. But first what keeps them separate - their desire for individualization - must be completely dissolved through multiple existences in multiple planes.

Each reincarnated life here and each life in other planes of existence are merely links in one chain of individualization that will eventually lead to dissolution.

And because we have become stuck in this fallen existence the Source will intervene at this level, but will not force us to unite until we are make the choice to do so.

Forcing us to Love, to Unite, is not Love at all, is it?

If you have not read the Origin of Evil posted as another thread, you may want to. It explains in more detail what has been offered here for your consideration.


vivian

[kofh2u]

Hello vivian,

I read justin's remark, "There is much evidence presented against that conclusion--past live memories, doctrines of various religious, or what have you."

He raises an important factor that is in people's mind with regard to how they perceive this life, ideas of live sgain, and what happens at death.

Genetics has made this issue more important to religious people, and especially for so called skeptics/atheists.

We, us, our mental existence people call spirit, is encoded in the living tissue of the people we are supposed to love and serve, our neighbors.

We know this because we are born with instincts, the programmed thinking resulting in behavior. This is a clue that our minds are "stored" in the living matter of the Genetic Code, carried in the living bodies of our species.

The living Gene Pool of humanity is the dust from which we have been formed, and the dust to which we ultimately return. We are alive, even in death, everyday, in the sense that we are merely "resting" in the Gehenna of time between reconstitutions.

Justin is wrong in presenting the now archaic argument, ""There is much evidence presented against that conclusion--past live memories"...

Quite to the contrary, there is NOW much evidence presented FOR that conclusion--"past live memories are indisputably passed forward from the previous generations." We are born again.

Your comments add the important belief that this is the meaning of our existence. We, we humans are the very vehicle by which the Cosmic Consciousness, found long in the concept of God, is manifesting within the house of his own creation. And, that manifestation will be in His prize creation, man. Man will become more and more the mediator between this expression for God, Cosmic Consciousness, and the totality of the whole Creation. Man will be essentially the Transducer between his own Collective Unconscious and Cosmic Consciousness, like Father and Son.

Justin knows intuitively a great deal about this. He expresses a democratic acceptance of belief by others, too, in the spiritual dimensions of this existence. However, he ignors two bodies of concrete facts. He holds to his initial animism and excuses it by dismissing knowledge as unimportant, unless utilizable in some way.
In this, he is a proponent of the idea that useless kbowledge can actually exist. He does not take notice that technology breds on a sudden synthesis from an inventory of previously thoughts, a stock of useless knowledge.

To be more concrete in this constructive criticism, I elucidate upon these two bodies of knowledge I say Justin seems to ignor.
Each set of facts opposes his singular intuitive sense in wicca, Mother Nature lore.

His acceptance of wicca is useful only in dulling his deeper spiritual needs. Needs that might be served in his reflection upon these following two concepts of the "reality" we know.

These are Genetic Memory and the sociological consequences of patterns in human thinking.

The former I have referred to here and elsewhere. The latter I explain as the hidden manna of the Bible, the once secret and seemingly mystical, even occult wisdom that made prophecy possible.

As I pointed out, Nostradamus is testimony to a popular vote for my point: something seems to be at work which effects human behavior. This is especially noticable in sociological and historical occurences.

Nevertheless, even if it is arcane and impossible to know, Justin may still be held hostage to charges he ignors prophecy in scripture which supports the statement here, that something is afoot, and the Bible is the ONLY written, long established body of thought on the subject. That is to say, the only, EXCEPT for the personal intuitiveness of people in the short moment of their temporary flowering in this carnation.

So, it is not important whether there is a kabbalah available to us, unavailable, whether lost, hidden in the clutches of a selfish priesthood.

It is important that scripture is speaking the same idea as Genetics.

Am I sufficiently clear in this?

[Vivian]

Hello vivian,

I read justin's remark, "There is much evidence presented against that conclusion--past live memories, doctrines of various religious, or what have you."

He raises an important factor that is in people's mind with regard to how they perceive this life, ideas of live sgain, and what happens at death.

Genetics has made this issue more important to religious people, and especially for so called skeptics/atheists.

We, us, our mental existence people call spirit, is encoded in the living tissue of the people we are supposed to love and serve, our neighbors.

We know this because we are born with instincts, the programmed thinking resulting in behavior. This is a clue that our minds are "stored" in the living matter of the Genetic Code, carried in the living bodies of our species.

The living Gene Pool of humanity is the dust from which we have been formed, and the dust to which we ultimately return. We are alive, even in death, everyday, in the sense that we are merely "resting" in the Gehenna of time between reconstitutions.

Justin is wrong in presenting the now archaic argument, ""There is much evidence presented against that conclusion--past live memories"...

Quite to the contrary, there is NOW much evidence presented FOR that conclusion--"past live memories are indisputably passed forward from the previous generations." We are born again.

Your comments add the important belief that this is the meaning of our existence. We, we humans are the very vehicle by which the Cosmic Consciousness, found long in the concept of God, is manifesting within the house of his own creation. And, that manifestation will be in His prize creation, man. Man will become more and more the mediator between this expression for God, Cosmic Consciousness, and the totality of the whole Creation. Man will be essentially the Transducer between his own Collective Unconscious and Cosmic Consciousness, like Father and Son.

Justin knows intuitively a great deal about this. He expresses a democratic acceptance of belief by others, too, in the spiritual dimensions of this existence. However, he ignors two bodies of concrete facts. He holds to his initial animism and excuses it by dismissing knowledge as unimportant, unless utilizable in some way.
In this, he is a proponent of the idea that useless kbowledge can actually exist. He does not take notice that technology breds on a sudden synthesis from an inventory of previously thoughts, a stock of useless knowledge.

To be more concrete in this constructive criticism, I elucidate upon these two bodies of knowledge I say Justin seems to ignor.
Each set of facts opposes his singular intuitive sense in wicca, Mother Nature lore.

His acceptance of wicca is useful only in dulling his deeper spiritual needs. Needs that might be served in his reflection upon these following two concepts of the "reality" we know.

These are Genetic Memory and the sociological consequences of patterns in human thinking.

The former I have referred to here and elsewhere. The latter I explain as the hidden manna of the Bible, the once secret and seemingly mystical, even occult wisdom that made prophecy possible.

As I pointed out, Nostradamus is testimony to a popular vote for my point: something seems to be at work which effects human behavior. This is especially noticable in sociological and historical occurences.

Nevertheless, even if it is arcane and impossible to know, Justin may still be held hostage to charges he ignors prophecy in scripture which supports the statement here, that something is afoot, and the Bible is the ONLY written, long established body of thought on the subject. That is to say, the only, EXCEPT for the personal intuitiveness of people in the short moment of their temporary flowering in this carnation.

So, it is not important whether there is a kabbalah available to us, unavailable, whether lost, hidden in the clutches of a selfish priesthood.

It is important that scripture is speaking the same idea as Genetics.

Am I sufficiently clear in this?

If I may share this with you, david.

While our physical DNA defines many things - our appearance and gender related functioning for example - it does not define our personalities. You are right, though, that there is something inbred that defines our mental - as well as our emotional - uniquenesses but we are so much more than physical beings. We have a soul which is comprised of subtle bodies as well as an auric covering and it is in this covering that the karmic attributes from previous incarnations are carried.

No matter what physical DNA we carry, these karmic attributes that are carried in our soul will define the personality - including both the emotional and mental bodies - that is developed.

And it is through the auric covering that either spirit or lucifer inspires the soul which in turn functions in this world through our physical, emotional, and mental bodies. So then our mental functioning is not spirit, david, but merely one of the vehicles through with it manifests in the material realms.

The Old Testament, particularly the Torah, has been distorted more by omission that anything else, and so is not a trust worthy guide. The words of Jesus, though, that are contained in the Gospels, are felt by many of the enlightened to be some of the most important teachings that we have available in this day.

Jesus directed us to seek the Kingdom before all things. He told us that the Kingdom was within. And though He used OT scripture to prove a point to those who were scripturally stuck, to most he taught straight from His heart to theirs. It is the same today. Scripture can be useful, david, but true learning comes directly from the Master.

Seek the Kingdom first.


vivian

[kofh2u]

If I may share this with you, david.

While our physical DNA defines many things - our appearance and gender related functioning for example - it does not define our personalities. You are right, though, that there is something inbred that defines our mental - as well as our emotional - uniquenesses but we are so much more than physical beings. We have a soul which is comprised of subtle bodies as well as an auric covering and it is in this covering that the karmic attributes from previous incarnations are carried.

No matter what physical DNA we carry, these karmic attributes that are carried in our soul will define the personality - including both the emotional and mental bodies - that is developed.

And it is through the auric covering that either spirit or lucifer inspires the soul which in turn functions in this world through our physical, emotional, and mental bodies. So then our mental functioning is not spirit, david, but merely one of the vehicles through with it manifests in the material realms.

The Old Testament, particularly the Torah, has been distorted more by omission that anything else, and so is not a trust worthy guide. The words of Jesus, though, that are contained in the Gospels, are felt by many of the enlightened to be some of the most important teachings that we have available in this day.

Jesus directed us to seek the Kingdom before all things. He told us that the Kingdom was within. And though He used OT scripture to prove a point to those who were scripturally stuck, to most he taught straight from His heart to theirs. It is the same today. Scripture can be useful, david, but true learning comes directly from the Master.

Seek the Kingdom first.


vivian

Hello vivian,
We differ on a few of our personal opinions.

I see personality as the tip of the deeper mind-set, even basic philosphical outlook hiding under or behind face presented to us. Personality is really something we say aboutother people. We say they are this way and/or that way. They are introverted or extroverted, they are cold calm logical, or perhaps open to a ssiblity of hysteria due to the highly charges emotional outlook.

But, these qualities are souced in the psycho-chemistry of Jungian Functional Thinking apparati. Carl Jung's insights have allowed us to separate people into general classifications similar to what science does with various compounds manufactured by bonding the various constituient atoms composing them. We have Salts, Acids, Bases, Organics, etc.

So, with Jung, we have the permutations of basic genetically given and formed thinking mechanisms identified by Myers/Briggs as N,(Intuition), T, (Thinking), S, (Sensation), and F, (Feeling).

The pemutations ssible remind me of the kabbalah graphics and letter manipulations of YHVH, which have come down to us through the ages without any rational explanation.

We differ again in that you say, "The Old Testament, particularly the Torah, has been distorted more by omission that anything else, and so is not a trust worthy guide."

There is a "test" that we can set mich of the Torah to, it is premised on the fact that beneath the written text of Torah lies a literary contrivance.
I mean a contrivance,, like the hidden techniques of artistic composition used by master oil painters, unnoticed in viing the painting, but there if you know to look. I mean, artist lay-out the geometric relationships between different elements they intend to paint on the canvass before they start. There has been much discussion about incorporating the "golden ratio," for instance, in D'Vinci's work, and such composition considerations in all master works.

Well, Torah has a similar but literary contrivance too. It becomes a "fence" to wgat has come down to us, and helps as if a thread of continuity in its "geometries? to link the text messages together, and raise questions, too, where it seems absent of "broken."

The NT, among other things, supports what I have said and extends the implications of Torah further.

[Krusader]

Thought others might enjoy this insightful presentation of the Tetragrammaton -

Vivian, you are attempting to prove that Yod (some Father principle) was distorted into God, because they have a similar sound?

However, the English word for "God" is related to the German "Gott." Was Yod originally Yott?

Actually, the Anglo-Saxon "God" and the German "Gott, are probably rooted in the Sanskrit word for "to invoke or to sacrifice ', or the "one invoked."

A New Ager does not a linguist make!

[Vivian]

Hello vivian,
We differ on a few of our personal opinions.

I see personality as the tip of the deeper mind-set, even basic philosphical outlook hiding under or behind face presented to us. Personality is really something we say aboutother people. We say they are this way and/or that way. They are introverted or extroverted, they are cold calm logical, or perhaps open to a ssiblity of hysteria due to the highly charges emotional outlook.

But, these qualities are souced in the psycho-chemistry of Jungian Functional Thinking apparati. Carl Jung's insights have allowed us to separate people into general classifications similar to what science does with various compounds manufactured by bonding the various constituient atoms composing them. We have Salts, Acids, Bases, Organics, etc.

So, with Jung, we have the permutations of basic genetically given and formed thinking mechanisms identified by Myers/Briggs as N,(Intuition), T, (Thinking), S, (Sensation), and F, (Feeling).

The pemutations ssible remind me of the kabbalah graphics and letter manipulations of YHVH, which have come down to us through the ages without any rational explanation.

We differ again in that you say, "The Old Testament, particularly the Torah, has been distorted more by omission that anything else, and so is not a trust worthy guide."

There is a "test" that we can set mich of the Torah to, it is premised on the fact that beneath the written text of Torah lies a literary contrivance.
I mean a contrivance,, like the hidden techniques of artistic composition used by master oil painters, unnoticed in viing the painting, but there if you know to look. I mean, artist lay-out the geometric relationships between different elements they intend to paint on the canvass before they start. There has been much discussion about incorporating the "golden ratio," for instance, in D'Vinci's work, and such composition considerations in all master works.

Well, Torah has a similar but literary contrivance too. It becomes a "fence" to wgat has come down to us, and helps as if a thread of continuity in its "geometries? to link the text messages together, and raise questions, too, where it seems absent of "broken."

The NT, among other things, supports what I have said and extends the implications of Torah further.

Are you seeking Truth, david? Or are you seeking to prove you are right?

Do you want to Know from experience, or do you simply want to believe in what you have read?

We will not be able to find Truth as long as we are self invested in ideas and opinions, and beliefs.

That said, david, I emphathize with the need to follow our ideas to fruition. If you would like to pursue the contrivances of Torah and the rest of the Old Testament there are many teachers (false) who will gladly assist you. But be warned there is great darkness out there in this arena. And this is not a thought form created by mankind, but a very evil archon that is responsible for leading Israel astray. It still feeds off of anyone seeking Hebraic roots or deeper Torah understanding.

What is found in the deeper meaning of the Old Testament is a mental trap that has been set by this archon. I have encountered several followers of Jung that have been caught in it. The trap almost pulled me in at one time as well. The multiple layers of meaning are very enticing for we mental types!

What comes to mind are catacombs. The mind can get stuck wandering through these passageways of death, not being able to find its way out.

Be careful, david.



vivian

[shunyadragon]

Are you seeking Truth, david? Or are you seeking to prove you are right?

Do you want to Know from experience, or do you simply want to believe in what you have read?

We will not be able to find Truth as long as we are self invested in ideas and opinions, and beliefs.

That said, david, I emphathize with the need to follow our ideas to fruition. If you would like to pursue the contrivances of Torah and the rest of the Old Testament there are many teachers (false) who will gladly assist you. But be warned there is great darkness out there in this arena. And this is not a thought form created by mankind, but a very evil archon that is responsible for leading Israel astray. It still feeds off of anyone seeking Hebraic roots or deeper Torah understanding.

What is found in the deeper meaning of the Old Testament is a mental trap that has been set by this archon. I have encountered several followers of Jung that have been caught in it. The trap almost pulled me in at one time as well. The multiple layers of meaning are very enticing for we mental types!

What comes to mind are catacombs. The mind can get stuck wandering through these passageways of death, not being able to find its way out.

Be careful, david.
Statements of caution such as this are for the weak of mind fearing deeper understanding and meaning of what may be found in the third barrel.

Puting too much importance and emphasis on an ancient word from crumbling parchment is a far greater cultural egocentric mind trap then exploring the works of Jung. The infinite reality of the divine transcends any one name humans could come up with.

[kofh2u]

Hello shunyadragon,

I tend to agree with you, that the particular source from which we might seek illumination is a trap only to the weak.
Vivian herself is very taken with the most modern of ? ... new age..? writers and thinkers. I believe these people, too, have insights worthy of consideration, but as every deprogrammed Cult member will attest to, the danger lies within the mind of the investigator, not a written page.

One important point about new psychologies, new age insights, new movements, is that the audience for tnese ideas have demonstrated very short lives. For most if not all, interest in the insight disappears upon death of the originator. This is particularly true for pschological systems of treatments and expanded consciousness.

Though Teaching Schools review the works and investigations of the early 20th century researchers and indeed, still support much that they observed, the clinical treatment, and the state of the art concerning man's behavior, and the thinking processes behind that behavior, are hardly further than they were 4000 years ago.

With this observation, admitted to by Human Behavioralist themselves, my point is that we ARE STILL at the same starting gate today with the ancients who speak to us through their writings on this subject.

Those men, certainly, though long dead, are alive and as relevant as our own ideas, de facto that we still have no clue.

I would add that, these ancient writers have one up on us, today, too.

Maybe two up on us.

One,... their writings imply a knowledge of human behavior well beyond our own in that their writings have been best sellers for 3500 years and still demand current audiences.

A second observation concerns whatever success can be argued for their ability to predict sociological behaviors; i.e., predict the future.

But, I also see the failure to educate the common people about the recent insights of men like Freud and Ericson, Horney, Maslow, and others. What they found out has had little real preventive application or useful effect on social behavior.
The real "magic" of an Old World manuscript, or a New Age idea, would be measured by the size of the audience who would listen AND hear. The trick of the psychology to galvanize attention and universally inform would be witness to its validity, in that people would not act as if blind to what they would see!

For instance, Jung might be wider read if the meanings below were insisted upon:

Rev. 7:1 And after these things (just predicted in Chapter 6), I saw four angels (the four Collective Jungian Functions of World-wide Thinking) standing on the four corners of the earth, (N, S, E, AND W), holding the four winds of the earth [the world's Collective Jungian thoughts: FEELINGS, (N); SENSATION, (S); THINKING, (T); INTUITION, (N)] that the wind (OF THESE FOUR COLLECTIVE WORLD WIDE FUNCTIONS OF THINKING) should not blow on the earth (OF THE SECULAR WORLD), nor on the sea (OF THE COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUS MIND OF MEN), nor on any tree (meaning: SOCIAL INSTITUTION).

Matt. 24:31 And he shall send his (four, Rev. 7:1) angels (standing on the four corners of the earth, N, S, E, and W), with a great (wake up) sound (as) of a trumpet (of Bible interpretation), and (the churches), they shall gather together his (144,000) elect from the four winds (of Jungian understanding) from one end of (the) heaven (of man's collective mind) to the other.

[Vivian]

Vivian, you are attempting to prove that Yod (some Father principle) was distorted into God, because they have a similar sound?

However, the English word for "God" is related to the German "Gott." Was Yod originally Yott?

Actually, the Anglo-Saxon "God" and the German "Gott, are probably rooted in the Sanskrit word for "to invoke or to sacrifice ', or the "one invoked."

A New Ager does not a linguist make!

Actually, Crusader, no one is certain of the origins of the word "God". See http://wahiduddin.net/words/name_god.htm

Considering the source of the document in question, the revelation contained therein is more trustworthy than anyone else's speculation.


vivian

[kofh2u]

Hi Viv,
You sure explained that away,... god and gutt...

But, how do you relate this non-monotheistic idea of Gutt with YHVH and the mystery of the plural El-ohim?

[Vivian]

Hi Viv,
You sure explained that away,... god and gutt...

But, how do you relate this non-monotheistic idea of Gutt with YHVH and the mystery of the plural El-ohim?


The previous discussion was regarding word origins, david. We had not touched on the erroneous understandings behind the words!

It is interesting that the English language 'founding fathers' would use the first letter of the tetragrammaton to refer to the Elohim or Powers. But this does not mean that their understanding of these words was correct!

First there was One All Absolute Intelligence or Spirit, and that One had a thought to create a being with which to interact. There were then Two - the Infinite Absolute and a being that was the perfect image of the Infinite but in itself finite.

From the interaction of the Two, came the only begotten Son, Christ, Divine Love, and from the Christ came the Seven, which are also known as the Powers or the Elohim. They are not personages, but vibrational energies coming out of Christ. YHVH Elohim, the Creator of our initial physical bodies, is one of the Seven.

It is through Christ and by Christ that all creation was created - which includes all things of form, including the Seven Elohim.

Moses was a Christed being as was Jesus the Christ and through him a set of commandments was brought into this world for humanity to live by. These commandments were revolutionary at the time, but what remains from them has been distorted leading to misunderstandings such as the belief that an actual sacrifice of blood is required for the forgiveness of our karma/sin.

To understand Torah one must understand the nomadic tribe it was given to and the state of the world at the time. And also that the OT has been distorted/altered by an imposter YHVH, so that it is difficult to see where the Real one ends and the false one begins.


vivian

[kofh2u]

Vivian, you are attempting to prove that Yod (some Father principle) was distorted into God, because they have a similar sound?

However, the English word for "God" is related to the German "Gott." Was Yod originally Yott?

Actually, the Anglo-Saxon "God" and the German "Gott, are probably rooted in the Sanskrit word for "to invoke or to sacrifice ', or the "one invoked."

A New Ager does not a linguist make!

If we were to use the idea of Gott in a common way, forgetting religion, and someone asked, "What is your cardinal rule, what is you basic premise in the transactional world between yourself and others." Or, what is the basic "God," or rule, or concept that is your guiding light to survival?

If survival is the bottom line to life now and ever after, what is your "way" or daily direction?

These seem to me to be practical investigations into the question of whom one serves. Beyond the intellectualizing of God, in accord with the observable behaviors utilized by a person on a daily basis, isn't it clear what Concept of Life that person "worships." Isn't this the "God" in whose hands one has placed his life?

With this point of view in mind, it seems that the first large distinction, in regard to our instinct for survival, is that we choose either to serve ourselves or build a fortress of friends with service to them. Altruism vs Selfishness seems to divide us immediately into these two distinct camps. True?

[kofh2u]

KOFHY:
Vi, I like a number of this about the process you utilze in discussing these ideas.
Besides you democratic tolerance for the opinions of others, evidenced by the patience and courtesy in your replies, you are on the ready to produce defining doctumentation for what you say and mean.

Vivian:

The previous discussion was regarding word origins, david. We had not touched on the erroneous understandings behind the words!

KOFHY:
Haho.
Do you mean then that the words may still remain valid in the "author's" attempt to use them for his purposes, but no one has, as of yet, properly interpreted their definition?

Like God, Gott, Gutt, Hu, etc, these are gentile translations from the Hebrew. YHVH and Elohim have been superimposed upon an existing and long held cultural concept.
In its affect, this is much like the superimposition of Christianity through conversions from tribal and animistic superstitutious pre-existing religions.

Vivian:
It is interesting that the English language 'founding fathers' would use the first letter of the tetragrammaton to refer to the Elohim or Powers. But this does not mean that their understanding of these words was correct!

KOFHY:
Oh, I had no idea that they were so Jewish in avoiding the vocalization of the Great Tetragrammation.

Vivian:
First there was One All Absolute Intelligence...

KOFHY: We agree.
Imsee this entity as the unknowable First Cause. It transcends existence and is pre-existent of the material Universe.
It might be, or even may be, total pure Absolute Energy. Before the Big Bang, Absolute Energy was. This is very much Einstien's idea of energy transforming into matter.

I refer to this entity in a theological definition as the aspect of the concept of God which is Theistic.

This is the Father. This is what was before "In the beginning."

Vivian:
First there was One All Absolute Intelligence...or Spirit,...

KOFHY:
Here we differ. The "sporit" of this Theistic Entity is expressed in what we have come to understand as a set of Natural Laws.

The interactions of the energy-matter created by this pre-existant Theistic aspect is a defining quality of Him.

In other words, we "see" God by noting the effects of the His presence in the material Universe. His Spirit then, is seen in the way things are related and the way they happen. Things occur naturally, and are explicable, knowable, and describable in accord with Laws. This is pantheism by a monotheistic God.

I see Spirit as the pantheistic expression of our Theistic Father. Spirit is Pantheistic God.

Vivian:
... and that One had a thought to create a being with which to interact. There were then Two - the Infinite Absolute and a being that was the perfect image of the Infinite but in itself finite.

KOFHY:
Three.
Theistic God-form, Pantheistic God-expression, and now, Immanent, within the mind, God-form.

This is the Trinity, YHVH, that "is what it turns out to have evolved into"...


Vivian:
From the interaction of the Two, came the only begotten Son, Christ, Divine Love,...

KOFHY:
Yes.
Through a process of refining in the fire of Evolution, in the spirit of the Natural Laws which were at work, the Theistic God pantheistically formed a creature within which He, himself, was to be found. He is within, His kingdom is psychic. He is Mind. He is the Immanent God, His very image is Mind. By the mind, the spirit of His Natural Workings can, have been, and are being consciously understood.

Vivian:
... and from the Christ came the Seven, which are also known as the Powers or the Elohim.

KOFHY:
Hmmm...
Yes, in the Eden separate from the instinctual world of living organisms, the realm of man's mind was closed off, was a fenced off area from all other living organisms. It was heaven, a place of thoughts interacting with thoughts, and God was the Truth there. In this inner world of the mind,the image of God had pantheistic aspects.
The Reality of God, out there, pantheistically, in His external creation, the Universe beyond the inner man, was knowable by seven psychic entities.

Called the seven angels, seven spirits, seven stars of the inner drama, these entities are recognizably our Freudian Archetypes.

In reflecting the Truth in the image created in man's mind, (concerning what is real and what not), they were to serve Conscience, the mental spirit within man modeled by Jesus. In this service to Conscience, archetypal dominance was/is destructive to the process. Truth DEPENDS upon mutuality and fair expression of each of man's mental apparati. Truth is the sum of partial, individual, archetypal understandings. These seven must serve man's Conscience, which in turn serves Reality by deciphering its Truth.

Vivian:
They are not personages, but vibrational energies...

KOFHY:
Yes, they are purely electromagnetic energy manifestations. They have been personified, of course.

Vivian:
...coming out of Christ. YHVH Elohim, the Creator of our initial physical bodies, is one of the Seven.

KOFHY:
He, internalized in our psyche (soul), is the Eighth, Conscience.

Vivian:
It is through Christ and by Christ that all creation was created -

KOFHY:
Here is where the semantics get confused.

God, external to his inner Image inside the mind of man, is whatever is "out there," not inside our head. The reflection in our mind is God out there because we were created to be his Imag, but not exactly Him. So, image within is God, called Christ, and identified as the Truth seeker, Conscience,... in all men... if men will serve Conscience.

Vivian:
...which includes all things of form, including the Seven Elohim.

KOFHY:
I am a little hesistant to say I understand you here.

Elohim IS all there is external to man, Theistic and pantheistic God. Internally, imaged in Mind, the Immanent Gid, He is all. He is our total mind. He is our complete psyche, including our Unconscious Mind.

Vivian:
Moses was a Christed being as was Jesus the Christ and through him a set of commandments was brought into this world for humanity to live by.

KOFHY:
Yes, before Abraham Mind was.

Vivian:
These commandments were revolutionary at the time, but what remains from them has been distorted leading to misunderstandings...

KOFHY:
True. Men created an institution, a religion, a practice that remained after their death. It had a life of its own in transcending into each next generation. ,It enculturated, trained, and enforced behaviors that had been exterpolated from the Law given to Moses.
We see this practice of the Jewish patriarchy mirror in the Sharia of present day Islam.
This was what Jesus opposed.

Vivian:
...distorted, leading to misunderstandings..such as the belief that an actual sacrifice of blood is required for the forgiveness of our karma/sin.

KOFHY:
Well, in a way. The way the shedding of blood is necessary to the remission of sin is similar to the manner in which Martin Luther King Jr sacrificed himself in order to change institutionalized social practices and raise Conscious Awareness.
Sacrifice, in laying down one's life for the benefit of prosperity, is a voluntary blood offering which evidences the thinking of Conscience in the "martyr," himself.

Vivian:
To understand Torah one must understand the nomadic tribe it was given to and the state of the world at the time.

KOFHY:
Islam in its most fundamental form through Sharia illustrates exactly how the priest and practicioner of Torah can place the ritual begore the meaning.


Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and (Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe (in the synagogie) of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted (altruistic social interaction), the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these (major teachings of the Bible) ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other (ritual ceremonies) undone.

Vivian:
And also that the OT has been distorted/altered by an imposter YHVH,...

KOFHY:
?
The "distorting/altering imposters" are the cock-sure Behavioralists who insist they understand the rules for commanded human behavior. If you mean they assume authority and make themselves God...

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes, (writers of vain discourses of academians) and the Pharisees (in the robes of tradition) sit in Moses’ seat:

Vivian:
...so that it is difficult to see where the Real one ends and the false one begins.

KOFHY:
I take it you mean that you have no faith in the written scriptures? You set them aside as to vaguely perceived, to old, to suspect, too open to debate to be useful as an iron ruler by which to rule our understanding?
You seem to bebsaying that we ought start our quest for discovery by ignoring the past ideas from so long ago, written by Moses, and set out unimpeded by prior behavioral studies and sociology to be recognized as still with us today,meven. It appears you suggest we invent a new wheel evidencing past misfortune and recommending a new and more acceptable one?

[Vivian]

KOFHY:
Haho.
Do you mean then that the words may still remain valid in the "author's" attempt to use them for his purposes, but no one has, as of yet, properly interpreted their definition?

Like God, Gott, Gutt, Hu, etc, these are gentile translations from the Hebrew. YHVH and Elohim have been superimposed upon an existing and long held cultural concept.
In its affect, this is much like the superimposition of Christianity through conversions from tribal and animistic superstitutious pre-existing religions.

Yes. A little more simply put is that we cannot know for certain the thinking present in the consciousness's of those living at the time the English language was developed. We can collect data and speculate on that data but there is no way to know for certain using man's typical thinking processes.

The only way to know is to experience it through Spirit.

In addition, there may be no correlation between how present day thinkers define a word and how it was defined by those who first began using it. They could be different and equally incorrect.


Vivian:
First there was One All Absolute Intelligence...

KOFHY: We agree.
Imsee this entity as the unknowable First Cause. It transcends existence and is pre-existent of the material Universe.
It might be, or even may be, total pure Absolute Energy. Before the Big Bang, Absolute Energy was. This is very much Einstien's idea of energy transforming into matter.

I refer to this entity in a theological definition as the aspect of the concept of God which is Theistic.

This is the Father. This is what was before "In the beginning."

Vivian:
First there was One All Absolute Intelligence...or Spirit,...

KOFHY:
Here we differ. The "sporit" of this Theistic Entity is expressed in what we have come to understand as a set of Natural Laws.

The interactions of the energy-matter created by this pre-existant Theistic aspect is a defining quality of Him.

In other words, we "see" God by noting the effects of the His presence in the material Universe. His Spirit then, is seen in the way things are related and the way they happen. Things occur naturally, and are explicable, knowable, and describable in accord with Laws. This is pantheism by a monotheistic God.

I see Spirit as the pantheistic expression of our Theistic Father. Spirit is Pantheistic God.


I do not use the terms you are using, so let me pull up some definitions...


Pantheism: A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.

OK

Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

I'd cut the part about a personal God. Rest OK.


We are both speaking the same here, david, only a little different in semantics.

Let me know what you think…

Spirit is that which is formless. The formless Infinite Absolute Intelligence Cosmic Consciousness is the undifferentiated Spirit before creation - "The Word was with God, the Word was God". This feels to be the same that you mean by monotheistic God.

In manifesting creation, Spirit becomes differentiated as God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The latter perhaps being what your are referring to as the pantheistic God, for it is the Holy Spirit that carries the Word - first thought vibration – bringing forth the Christ or Divine Love - the image of the Cosmic Consciousness - into all creation.

And yes there are Universal, Divine Laws that govern all of creation. It is our disharmony with these Laws that causes our suffering. If you are hurting then you know that somewhere a Law has been broken by you.




Vivian:
It is through Christ and by Christ that all creation was created -

KOFHY:
Here is where the semantics get confused.

God, external to his inner Image inside the mind of man, is whatever is "out there," not inside our head. The reflection in our mind is God out there because we were created to be his Imag, but not exactly Him. So, image within is God, called Christ, and identified as the Truth seeker, Conscience,... in all men... if men will serve Conscience.

How is this for simplicity...

1...2...3...7...many

Instead of working your way backwards, start with One and go forth from there. What do you see?


Vivian:
...which includes all things of form, including the Seven Elohim.

KOFHY:
I am a little hesistant to say I understand you here.

Elohim IS all there is external to man, Theistic and pantheistic God. Internally, imaged in Mind, the Immanent Gid, He is all. He is our total mind. He is our complete psyche, including our Unconscious Mind.

Pantheistic God only exists because of creation. Before creation It and "us" were all part of the solely existing monotheistic God. It will be the same after creation, when all dissolves as One again. (Can you imagine the Bliss?)

A Universal Law: As above so below. As below so above.
Another Universal Law : There is always something Higher.

All that we are able to See/Feel/Think is an image of something higher, which is an image of something higher, which is an image of something higher.

Even Jesus, the Son of God, recognized that in His Oneness with the Father, there was still something Higher, and so He was not the Father, or at least not until He dissolved into the Father after His resurrection. "Do not touch me for I have not yet been to the Father." But then when He came back out into the physical realm, He was again something less, merely One with the Father while in this realm (if you can call that merely!), even in a resurrected state.

So then YHVH Elohim, as are all the Elohim, is an image of the Cosmic Consciousness. They together are the image of the Father just as Christ is the image of the Father in creation, for they came forth out of the begotten Son.


Vivian:
Moses was a Christed being as was Jesus the Christ and through him a set of commandments was brought into this world for humanity to live by.

KOFHY:
Yes, before Abraham Mind was.


ahah! Few are able to see that when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am!" Check the Greek. Jesus is saying that before Abraham became the I Am or One with the Father, I became the I Am. It is known that the soul incarnated as Jesus had also incarnated as Melchezidek.


Vivian:
...distorted, leading to misunderstandings..such as the belief that an actual sacrifice of blood is required for the forgiveness of our karma/sin.

KOFHY:
Well, in a way. The way the shedding of blood is necessary to the remission of sin is similar to the manner in which Martin Luther King Jr sacrificed himself in order to change institutionalized social practices and raise Conscious Awareness.
Sacrifice, in laying down one's life for the benefit of prosperity, is a voluntary blood offering which evidences the thinking of Conscience in the "martyr," himself.


Yes. God desires mercy not sacrifice. The Jews were so bound by their misunderstanding of the Torah that they could not understand what Jesus kept telling them.

This misunderstanding was carried forward into what became the Christian religion, seemingly validated by John's declaring Jesus as the lamb of God.



Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and (Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe (in the synagogie) of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted (altruistic social interaction), the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these (major teachings of the Bible) ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other (ritual ceremonies) undone.

Vivian:
And also that the OT has been distorted/altered by an imposter YHVH,...

KOFHY:
?
The "distorting/altering imposters" are the cock-sure Behavioralists who insist they understand the rules for commanded human behavior. If you mean they assume authority and make themselves God...

Matt. 23:2 Saying, The scribes, (writers of vain discourses of academians) and the Pharisees (in the robes of tradition) sit in Moses’ seat:

No the actual words have been distorted. Books lost. Moses actually wrote seven.



Vivian:
...so that it is difficult to see where the Real one ends and the false one begins.

KOFHY:
I take it you mean that you have no faith in the written scriptures? You set them aside as to vaguely perceived, to old, to suspect, too open to debate to be useful as an iron ruler by which to rule our understanding?
You seem to bebsaying that we ought start our quest for discovery by ignoring the past ideas from so long ago, written by Moses, and set out unimpeded by prior behavioral studies and sociology to be recognized as still with us today,meven. It appears you suggest we invent a new wheel evidencing past misfortune and recommending a new and more acceptable one?

True faith is based on experiential Knowing, not on blind belief in what others say. Remember Jesus' interactions with His disciples? He praised them for Knowing due to an inner connection with the Father. Not on reading scripture and figuring it out with mental gyrations.

Scripture is useful, but the Word is living, like a double edged sword.

Go back and read the Gospels. To those who studied scripture, who mostly did not recognize Him, He quoted it back to them merely to show they did not even understand what had been written. To those who recognized and followed Him, He taught from His heart without any scriptural references.

His disciples were not well versed in Torah! They did not need to be. They had eyes to See and ears to Hear.



"All the mind's arbitrary conceptions of matter, phenomena, and of all conditioning factors and all conceptions and ideas relating thereto are like a dream, a phantasm, a bubble, a shadow, the evanescent dew, the lightning's flash. Every true disciple should thus look upon all phenomena and upon all the activities of the mind and keep his mind empty and selfless and tranquil." - Lord Buddha.


vivian