Have You Received Since You Believed?

[RevSteve45]

Greetings All in the Wonderful name of Jesus!

The following is a message I have preached many, many times on EXACTLY how to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That method is, in short & simple terms:

1. Make sure you are saved.
2. Make sure that there is no known sin in your life. If there is, confess & repent of it, before asking for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
3. Raise both hands in the air, and ask the Lord Jesus to baptize you with the Holy Spirit, believing & expecting that He will do exactly that.
4. Thank Jesus for baptizing you with the Holy Spirit, BEFORE He does so.
5. Do NOT pray in English any more, but expect that the next words out of your mouth, will be in a prayer language, that the Holy Spirit will speak through you.

Very seldom do I preach this message, outlining this method, that one or more people (usually several) do not receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It works, folks!

At any rate, here is the message:

Have You Received Since You Believed?

B.R: John 16:71-15; Luke 24:29; Acts 19:1-7

Text: Acts 19:2, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Introduction: In our first Bible reading, we read of a time when Jesus was getting ready to leave His disciples, and to go to be with His Father. For about 3 years now, Jesus had been teaching His disciples. Whenever they had a problem, or when they needed wisdom or guidance, they would come to Jesus. But now, Jesus tells them that He is going away. But He also tells them that He will ask the Father to send them another Comforter. The word Comforter comes from the Greek word, parakletos, which means, “one who comes alongside to help.” When the Holy Ghost came, He would be the One who would lead and guide the disciples into all truth. He would be the One who would convince the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He would be the One to give them the boldness and zeal to witness to men and women. Then, over in Luke, Jesus is addressing His disciples for one of the last times here on Earth. He tells them not to leave the city of Jerusalem, until they were endued, which means clothed with like a garment, power from on high. They were not to go out and preach the Gospel in their own strength, wisdom & power. Instead, they were to wait until they were completely clothed with, empowered with, filled with the power of the Holy Ghost! Then, in Acts 19, Paul encounters a group of disciples, and he immediately begins to sense that there was something missing in their lives. So he asks them, “Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?” Their answer was much the same as that of many Christians today. They had not even heard of the Holy Ghost baptism. So Paul lays his hands upon them & prays for them, & 12 people received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Even years after the Day of Pentecost, God was still baptizing people with the Holy Ghost, and they were still speaking in tongues! Tonight, I want to preach about God’s conditions for receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost:

I. We Must Be Saved

A. They Had Repented
I Jn 1:8-9, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (KJV)

B. We Must Believe That Jesus Died For Our Sins
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (KJV)

C. 1 Tim 1:15, This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (KJV)

II. We Must Be Obeying God

A. Acts 5:32, And we are his witnesses of these things, and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. (KJV)

B. James 4:17, Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (KJV)

C. 1 John 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. (KJV)

D. Galatians 5:16, This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (KJV)

III. We Must Ask God

A. We Must Ask In Faith
Luke 11:9-13, And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (KJV)

B. Mark 11:23, For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. (KJV)

C. Thank God For The Holy Ghost Baptism BEFORE You Receive It
Phil 4:6-7, Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. (KJV)

D. Acts 2:39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (KJV)

Conclusion: Have you received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost since you believed? Do you need power from on high to live a holy life? Have you spoken in tongues, as the Spirit of God gave you the utterance. Tonight, if you are saved, this promise is for you. If there is any known sin in your life, confess it & make it right. Then believe God for this wonderful promise!

In His Service,
RevSteve45

[Bill the Cat]

YES

It was one of the most wonderful experiences of my life.

[Piebald]

Do NOT pray in English any more, but expect that the next words out of your mouth, will be in a prayer language, that the Holy Spirit will speak through you.

Is it really nescessary that we not pray in English?

[Solly]

Hmmm, strange, but I don't see people in the NT sitting around wanting to be "Baptised in the HSp", He came at a time of his own choosing. Funny how modern Christians need a method to get the Spirit to do the job He is supposed to do anyway.

ps, Don't mention the day of Pentecost, He could not have come any sooner, because that is the day of fulfillment.

[RevSteve45]

Is it really nescessary that we not pray in English?

Yes, it is, at least for the period of time that the seeker is asking for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. You see, the danger people fall into, if they do not receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit right away, is to start pleading with God for the Holy Spirit, i.e., "Please, God, Please God, baptize me with the Holy Spirit!" This pleading, or begging God for a promise which He is perfectly willing to give, does not demonstrate faith, but rather doubt.

By not praying in English any longer (for the period of time that they are seeking the Holy Spirit baptsm), it shows that they are waiting to speak the "tongue," or prayer language, that God is more than likely speaking into the person's mind at that very moment. They must have faith enough to speak OUT that language, even though they do not understand it.

I have shared this method of seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with Christian friends on the internet, and they have received the Holy Spirit Baptism this way as well. The first person I shared it with, after I had told her what to do, said that when she tried it, "I keep hearing these 'sounds' in the back of my mind. It sounds like baby talk!" I told her, "Yes, sister! That is the Holy Spirit trying to speak through you! Speak out those sounds!" She did so, and sure enough she got it! Her growth in the Lord was phenomonal after that. However, such is usually the case after a person receives the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In His Service,
Steve

[Warcraft3]

This is one of the problems with todays church. The "tounges" most people practice are not real. You can not "teach" someone how to recieve supernatural gifts. Ill be more specific in a later post, but for now my responce is.....:no:



Russ

[RevSteve45]

Hmmm, strange, but I don't see people in the NT sitting around wanting to be "Baptised in the HSp", He came at a time of his own choosing. Funny how modern Christians need a method to get the Spirit to do the job He is supposed to do anyway.

The believers in Samaria had to wait a few days before they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 8:14-17, Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

Also, please note that the believers in Corinth had received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and were not only exercising speaking in tongues, but ALL of the spiritual gifts. They simply had to be instructed in the proper way to exercise the gifts of the Spirit.

The confusion comes, because ALL believers receive the Holy Spirit when they believe:

John 20:22, And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (KJV)

However, that is not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is something that the believer asks for & receives. Notice that in Luke, Jesus said:

Luke 11:13, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK HIM? (KJV)

I have seen people receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, during the same altar call at which they get saved. I have seem it receved days, weeks, months, or even years later. But it is always at a point subsequent to salvation.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

This is one of the problems with todays church. The "tounges" most people practice are not real. You can not "teach" someone how to recieve supernatural gifts. Ill be more specific in a later post, but for now my responce is.....:no: Russ

Russ,

So you "know" that tongues are not "real," how, exactly? Do you pretend to know the heart of a man or a woman, whether the gift of the Spirit they are exercising is "real" or not? I would submit to you, that only GOD knows whether or not a particular gift is "real" or fake.

In His Service,
Steve

[joelkaki]

I am sorry, but I just totally disagree with what you have said, RevSteve. You don't see people in the New Testament "seeking" the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The normative standard is for it to accompany salvation anyway. And then there is no such "prayer language". Look at the use of tongues in Acts 2. It is not a bunch of gibberish, baby talk, but actual languages. Not to mention, spiritual growth is not something achieved by some specific ecstatic experience. It is gained by studying the Word, praying to the Lord (in your own tongue I mean), fellowshipping with believers, going through tough times and trusting in Him, etc. Sanctification doesn't come about quickly through an ecstatic experience.

Joel

[Solly]

Today @ 02:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=103104#post103104)
RevSteve45:
The believers in Samaria had to wait a few days before they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit:

Acts 8:14-17, Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (KJV)


Yes, Steve, but the point is that they weren't standing around with an instructor saying "Come on guys, stop praying in aramaic and let the spirit language just come. Faith boys, faith."

That ol' Samaria incident was about nonJews being brought into the church by the same Spirit, not about their personal "baptism in the Spirit". But that's another thread...
And I'm glad you said ALL believers have recived the Holy Spirit at salvation...however, the BotS is not something believers ask for...did the Samaritans, or Cornelius? In fact, it is not something we seek at all. Either he is here or he isn't; he doesn't say, Gosh I left my case of gifts at home, can you just ask God for them now, save me going back to get them.

But, again, that leads on to the whole Charismatic theology, which I don't have the time to discuss.

To Russ
So you "know" that tongues are not "real," how, exactly? Do you pretend to know the heart of a man or a woman, whether the gift of the Spirit they are exercising is "real" or not? I would submit to you, that only GOD knows whether or not a particular gift is "real" or fake.

You are arguing from the wrong point here Steve. Steadele and I know the tongues aren't real because there are no real tongues. It's not "this or that" it's none at all; as Joel has just said, the languages were real human languages.

[Warcraft3]

Oh I almost forgot.........


Welcome to TWEB RevSteve45 :thumb:


Russ

[RevSteve45]

And then there is no such "prayer language". Look at the use of tongues in Acts 2. It is not a bunch of gibberish, baby talk, but actual languages. Not to mention, spiritual growth is not something achieved by some specific ecstatic experience. Joel

What do you think a "tongue" is, if not a language? Just because tthe language that the Holy Spirit gives a believer to pray in, does not make sense to the natural man, does not mean it is not a language. Japanese sounds like "gibberish" or "baby talk" to the person who does not know it, as well. However, it is perfectly comprehensible to the Japanese.

Also, remember that Paul said that:

1 Cor 14:2, For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. (KJV)

So Paul ALREADY addressed this issue. The person who speaks in tongues is not speaking to people, but to God. Therefore, you need NOT understand what he is saying; only God understands. Paul freely admits that "no man understandeth him," but he does not seem to have a problem with it. Why is it that you do?

The only time that a person speaking in tongues needs to be "understood" by people, is iIF he is addressing a message to the Church. Then, he should pray for the interpretation, so the Church may be edified.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

And I'm glad you said ALL believers have recived the Holy Spirit at salvation...however, the BotS is not something believers ask for...did the Samaritans, or Cornelius? In fact, it is not something we seek at all.

Solly,

There is a difference between rge Baptism of the Holy Spirit in Samaria, Cornelius's house, and the believers from Ephesus. In each of those cases, the people did not know what to ask for. They had either just been saved, or they got saved & baptized in the Spirit at the same time.

However, the apostles DID know what to ask for. That is why they all praying with one accord on the Day of Pentecost. To those who KNOW about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said,

Luke 11:13, If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK HIM? (KJV)

In His Service,
Steve

[Solly]

Today @ 03:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=103189#post103189)
RevSteve45:
Solly,
However, the apostles DID know what to ask for. That is why they all praying with one accord on the Day of Pentecost. To those who KNOW about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said,


The Holy spirit was coming anyway - the appointment was already arranged. It wasn't a tarrying meeting as is sometimes portrayed. The Day of Pentecost would reach it's fulfillment with the coming of the Holy Spirit, just as Christ fulfilled the Passover by dying then. Just as Tabernacles will be fulfilled on his return. this isn't a huddle of believers trying not to pray in Aramaic and receiving by faith, he kicked the doors and windows in!!

[RevSteve45]

Solly,

You STILL have not explained why, if "the Holy Spirit was coming anyway," Jesus said in Luke that God would give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK Him.

It is just like prayer. God knows what we have need of, anyway, so why should we ask for it? Because some needs are greater than others. I may need a new job, a new car & the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, if I get the job & the car before I receive the Holy Spirit Baptism, I might have a problem with pride. But by asking for the Holy Spirit Baptism FIRST, it is much more likely that, if I ask for & receive the new job & car, I will have a good spirit about having them.

In His Service,
Steve

[Solly]

Today @ 04:35 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=103266#post103266)
RevSteve45:

Solly,

You STILL have not explained why, if "the Holy Spirit was coming anyway," Jesus said in Luke that God would give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK Him.

It is just like prayer. God knows what we have need of, anyway, so why should we ask for it? Because some needs are greater than others. I may need a new job, a new car & the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, if I get the job & the car before I receive the Holy Spirit Baptism, I might have a problem with pride. But by asking for the Holy Spirit Baptism FIRST, it is much more likely that, if I ask for & receive the new job & car, I will have a good spirit about having them.

In His Service,
Steve

Because you need to show first of all that what Jesus is referring to is what you are referring to.

1. ALL believers have the Holy Spirit.
2. Believers are to seek a second work of the Holy Spirit evidenced in certain signs and gifts and perhaps even a new level of Christian living - based on your anecdotal evidence above.

Now, When Peter said, Repent...and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2, he meant the first.
What does this first work of the Spirit do? He brings salvation and all that that entails for our growth in grace, union and conformity to Christ, work of sanctification and mortification of sin, the ability to pray, to believe, to hope, to love; in fact all the fruit of the Spirit and much more.

So, show how Jesus meant the second rather than the first.
Show how what you claim is a valid Christian experience adds anything more to what we already have through the Spirit's work.

As for: However, if I get the job & the car before I receive the Holy Spirit Baptism, I might have a problem with pride. But by asking for the Holy Spirit Baptism FIRST, it is much more likely that, if I ask for & receive the new job & car, I will have a good spirit about having them. Well, :doh: we're not going down the sinless perfection road are we?

[Warcraft3]

Solly:
Steadele and I know the tongues aren't real because there are no real tongues. It's not "this or that" it's none at all; as Joel has just said, the languages were real human languages.

Okay let me clear something up here.......While I do believe that miracles and tounges are something for today, and even believe that there is a difference between praying and speaking in tounges, I do not believe the majority of the current practises are the real thing.

Below are some posts I have made in other threads which will describe in mroe detail exactly where I stand...........

I dont think the problem is Benny Hinn, I think the problem is Christians. See the thing is since miracles are very rare in peoples lives they feel like they have to go to a goofball like Hinn to see something real. And miracles are rare because we arent ready to actually do them. People either believe miracles arent for today( which all the atheists Ive ever met think is a copout) or they say that miracles ARE happening and then point you to some pathetic example of a "real" miracle.

Notice that 95% of the supernatural gifts in the church are either "tounges" or "prophesying" (notice that these two are the easiest ones to fake and the most difficult ones to confirm) and the other gifts are rarely seen (indeed the gifts of miracles and healing are pretty much unheard of).

This should be obvious to people but it isnt. When I have spoken to people on this matter they always say" Well I cant speak for anyone else but MY speaking in tounges and prophesying is the real thing." ---------------Yeah sure it is bud. And that what EVERY SINGLE person who does it says to me.

So am I to believe that out of a church body (for example) of say 200 people that there are 80 people who speak in tounges and prophesy and ALL the other gifts are *just not being expressed*? Sound familiar?

Ive been to many churches and services where almost EVERY SINGLE PERSON had the two gifts of "tounges" and "prophesy" and NOT ONE PERSON and I mean not one single person had the gift of healing or miracles. This should be an indication that the tounges and prophesy that are currently expressed in the church are little more than strong emotions and good intentions.

The way to get rid of people like Benny Hinn is for Christians to pray for God to use them in the supernatural (none of this *well thats not for me *garbage or *well I just dont feel like I have that gift* excuse). Of course there is alot of stuff that comes along with praying that prayer so we must be prepared to pay the price for spiritual authority.

And the price is high.


Yes there is an "edification" component to the supernatural. But it is worthless without the evangelism component. We have churches where everyone can prophecy and speak in tounges for the "edification" of the church, but no one can raise the dead, cause limbs to grow, cause the blind to see, cause deformed limbs to become whole, etc. When only 3 of the gifts are expressed we are doing something wrong. I doubt the tounges and prophesy are real either.


Russ

[Warcraft3]

Here is another post relating my experience (one and only experience) with "tounges".

Okay here is the story of the one and only time in my life when I actually spoke in tounges.......

I was thirteen years old and I was at a youth convention with the assemblies of God in PA. During this time in my life I had been preaching alot and doing other types of ministry as well in several churches in my area. For about six months prior to my attending thsi particular youth rally I had been praying 3 times a day every single day. So my prayer life was in excellent shape during this time. (By the way I believe prayer is something that people DO need to be instructed on, since most prayers never get past the "starting line") Okay anyway.......

During one of the meetings their was an altar call/ worship time going on where thousands of people lined the front of the stage. I stayed in my seat and just prayed and worshiped to myself. While I was standing there the youth leader of my church came over to me and told me he believed I would speak in tounges that day. I told him "thats nice, but I dont WANT to speak in tounges anyway". He just smiled and told me to keep worshiping. I just kind of ignored the comment and said okay.

Now as I was worshiping something very strange happened. I would try to say a phrase like "Praise God" or "Thank you" or "Hallelujah" or something like that.....you get the idea. But one time when I tried to say something another word of the exact same length and number of syllables came out of my mouth. Now I want to stress this point... I WAS NOT CONTROLLING THE WAY MY MOUTH MOVED during this time. I had control to initiate and stop movement and I also supplied the sound, but SOMETHING WAS PHYSICALLY MOVING MY MOUTH A DIFFERENT WAY. And I could actually FEEL it physically forcing my mouth to move differently than I had intended.

The first time this happened I opened my eyes in surprise and said "wow that was really weird" and my youth pastor told me to not be startled and just continue praying. So I did.

In all I said about 5 words in tounges. Just 5. After six months of earnest prayer 3 times a day, and after seeing other supernatural events take place in my life my "tounges" experience consisted of no more than 5 words which werent even heard by anyone but me. Was there an interpretation? No there wasnt. Was one needed? No, because I did not say these things loud enough to be heard and also because I would describe the experience as more "praying" in tounges than really "speaking" in it.

After I had said the fifth word in "tounges" I sensed something different in the room so I opened my eyes. I looked and all around me people were laying on the floor, my youth pastor told me that after I said the last word people just fell down around me. What does that mean? LOL how should I know?

But that is what happened. I have never truly spoken or prayed in tounges before or since this event.



Russ

[Solly]

I used to be a charismatic; I prayed "in tongues", I interpreted, I was involved in a group prophesying.

I left it behind. I no longer see it as the work of God, but at best of men, and at worst...

[Warcraft3]

Today @ 11:58 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=103286#post103286)
Solly:

I used to be a charismatic; I prayed "in tongues", I interpreted, I was involved in a group prophesying.

I left it behind. I no longer see it as the work of God, but at best of men, and at worst...

I belive the first step towards the church regaining true spiritual power and authority is admitting that the current things we do ***aint it***. I think most Christians either.......

1. Do not truly seek after miracles
And since I believe praying for miracles is scriptural, I see this as a problem...

or

2. Think they have already obtained true spiritual power and authority
And since I do not believe they have obtained it and are just fooling themselves, I see this as a problem also.


So I think admitting the fact that miracles ARE NOT happening like they did in Acts (but should be) is half of the battle right there.


Russ

[RevSteve45]

Solly,

Actually, I do not need to show anything. In the time in which we are talking about, i.e., the First Century A.D., virtually ANYONE who received the Holy Spirit, did not know what to ask for. It was a brand-new thing in the world. It was only natural that the receiving of the Holy Spirit & the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, should occur at the same time.

During that time, the signs & gifts of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit were everywhere. People got healed by the laying on of hands, on a regular basis. Prophecy was considered a normal part of worship, no more uncommon than singing a hymn. Nor were mieracles unusual.

I simply do not believe that, when the last apostle died, that God said, "Ok! Time's up! No more miracles prophecies, gifts of the Holy Spirit, or Baptism of the Holy Spirit any more for you!"

Today, we have tens of thousands of born-again Christians, who are wondering how they can "walk in the Spirit," and live a deeper & richer life in God. The answer is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

No, I am not going down the road of Christian perfection. I was simply explaining, why we have to ASK, for things that God already knows we NEED. The reason is that all things that we need, are not equally needed, or even good for us, all at the same time.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

I used to be a charismatic; I prayed "in tongues", I interpreted, I was involved in a group prophesying. I left it behind. I no longer see it as the work of God, but at best of men, and at worst...

Solly,

How sad for you.

In His Service,
Steve

[dizzle]

I do not speak in tongues, and I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is simply God's empowerment for service. To stress tongues so much is divisive and makes "classes" of Christians.

[RevSteve45]

I do not speak in tongues, and I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is simply God's empowerment for service. To stress tongues so much is divisive and makes "classes" of Christians.

DeeDee,

What gives you the idea that anyone is "stressing tongues so much"?? My church does not "stess" tongues at all. It is simply one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but by no means the most important one.

Tongues are like any OTHER gift of the Holy Spirit. They can be used rightly or wrongly. They can be used or abused.

However, the Spiritled Christian will use them, and all OTHER spiritual gifts, properly.

In His Service,
Steve

[Wesley's son]

Today @ 12:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=103339#post103339)
Dee Dee Warren:

I do not speak in tongues, and I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is simply God's empowerment for service. To stress tongues so much is divisive and makes "classes" of Christians.


Could you explain further? This is very interesting. I have understood The Spirit's work in a believer as empowering for service and right living, that is enabling the Christian to overcome temptation.

[Socrates]

05-21-2003 @ 12:41 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=102693#post102693)
RevSteve45:

Greetings All in the Wonderful name of Jesus!

The following is a message I have preached many, many times on EXACTLY how to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Not necessary, since that happened when I was saved. It is clearly something that all true Christians have received at the moment of conversion. We must see what Scripture means by "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" rather than import modern baggage. 1 Cor. 12:13 says:

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body -- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free -- and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.


Also, Eph. 4:5:
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

This baptism unites believers into Christ's death and Resurrection (Rom. 6:1-10). There is no group of second-class Christians who haven't received this. And there is no evidence that the baptism of the Holy Spirit had to be proven by speaking in tongues or anything else, or that a believer had to feel some mysterious experience. The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith not by works (Eph. 2:8-9), not by having some religious experience, or by performing a work like speaking in tongues.

So if you are a Christian, the correct answer if anyone asks you whether you have received this baptism is 'yes, because I am a Christian', with an explanation of what baptism in the Holy Spirit really means.

RevSteve45:Do NOT pray in English any more, but expect that the next words out of your mouth, will be in a prayer language, that the Holy Spirit will speak through you.

And the biblical evidence for this is, what? Perhaps you are relying on Eugene Peterson's vile NT paraphrase called The Message, which renders the 1 Cor. 14 'tongues' as 'private prayer languages', which is disgraceful translator's bias.

And how does this fit with Paul's emphasis on intelligibility and using the mind? And Paul was only continuing what Jesus Himsef commanded: 'Love the Lord your God with all your ... mind.' For example, Paul said it is better to "speak five intelligible words to instruct others than 10,000 words in a tongue" (1 Cor. 14:19, NIV, which seems to convey the sense well here), and that it is better "to excel in gifts that build up the church" (1 Cor. 14:12) rather than be a speaker of an uninterpreted (untranslated) tongue who "edifies [only] himself" (1 Cor. 14:4). This would make sense if the tongue was a foreign language not known by the congregation. It can edify the speaker only because he understands it (his own language), but is useless to the rest of the church, because they don't *understand* it. Also, 1 Cor. 14:9: 'So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.' Paul's clear emphasis on intelligibility and using the mind should be kept in mind when interpreting the usual 'proof texts' for the charismatic practice. So this idea that we should not pray in English is contrary to the whole tenor of Paul's teaching here.

Why should tongues be rated so highly in some circles anyway? None of the Gospels (except that textually doubtful passage at the end of Mark) or doctrinal books of the NT touch on this phenomenon, of which such a huge deal is made by such a large segment of Christendom. If 'tongues' were so important, why are they never listed as the marks of spiritual maturity or criteria for becoming elders or deacons in 1 Tim. 3 or Titus 2?

Note also, Pentecostal-style tongues are not unique to Christianity, but are found in a number of non-Christian religions. So tongues are neither necessary for salvation, nor are they proof of salvation.

Paul even says "All do not speak in tongues, do they?" (1 Cor. 12:30, NASB), showing very clearly that tongues are not a requirement for Christian living. This must be taken into consideration when interpreting 1 Cor. 14:5: 'I would like every one of you to speak in tongues', where the word 'like' is thelo, which can mean 'take pleasure in'.

And Paul ranks 'tongues' way, way, behind speaking intelligibly as I've said. Really, some people major on minors.

RevSteve45: Very seldom do I preach this message,

Something to be thankful for, because the less often such a heterodox method is preached the better.

[Solly]

Yesterday @ 07:22 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=103397#post103397)
RevSteve45:


However, the Spiritled Christian will use them, and all OTHER spiritual gifts, properly.


Actually, the Spirited Christian will use the gifts as the Holy spirit distributes them. Do all pray in tongues? Do all prophesy? To one is given...to another is given... but all these worketh that one and the self same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[RevSteve45]

Socrates,

I am not going to attempt to answer all of your objections, since clearly you wish to find fault with those of us who believe Tongues, together with ALL of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, are for the Church today.

Suffice it to say that:

1. Pentecostals do not view people who have not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as "Second-class Christians." If they do so, they are wrong. Besides that, if they stay in a Pentecostal church long enough, they may receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for THEMSELVES, and see how wonderful & joyous it is, not to just speak in tongues, but to live a Spirit-filled, Spirit-led life!

2. Tongues is neither better nor worse than any other spiritual gift. However, Paul thankeed God that he spoke in tongues more than the Corinthians did. Jude exhorts us to build up our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost. Paul said that the person who prays in tongues edifies himself. Btw, that is not a bad thing, nor did Paul depict it as such.

3. As to how often I preach this message, I do so every time the Lord leads me to. I never fail to see results, when I do. I am not preaching any "new" teaching, but everything I preach, is found in the Word of God.

In His Service,
Steve

[RevSteve45]

Actually, the Spirited Christian will use the gifts as the Holy spirit distributes them. Do all pray in tongues? Do all prophesy? To one is given...to another is given... but all these worketh that one and the self same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Solly,

I agree completely. The gifts of the Spirit belong to God. No person can honestly say, "I HAVE the gift of healing." If he does, then he would be a brute, if he did not go around & lay hands on people in hospitals everywhere, so that they might be healed,

What is really happening, is that God USES a person through the gift of healing, or prophecy, or tongues, or whatever. Remember that God used a donkey to speak to Balaam as well, and a rooster to "speak" to Peter as well. So don't let it go to your head.

In His Service,
Steve

[Bill the Cat]

As a tongue speaker, I would like to weigh in a bit, if the good Rev doesn't mind..

From our IPHC doctrinal amplification page:

Spirit Baptism And Speaking With Other Tongues

We believe that the Pentecostal baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire is obtainable by a definite act of appropriating faith on the part of the fully cleansed believer (Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 1:5, 8; 2:38, 39). We believe that this great blessing, which provides the enduement of power to witness for Christ, is available to all believers whose hearts are cleansed from sin by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Since the Bible teaches that our bodies are temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 6:19, 20)-and that the temple of God is holy, which temple ye (believers) are (1 Corinthians 3:16, 17)-we do not believe that God will fill an unclean temple or vessel with His Holy Spirit. In other words, we believe, because the Bible teaches and requires it, that in order to receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost, a person must have a clean heart and life as a prerequisite for this great blessing. Remember, the blood of cleansing must first be applied, then the oil, which is a type of the Holy Spirit (Leviticus 14:14, 17).

Moreover, we believe that in order to live in the fullness of the Holy Spirit's power and possession, one must continue to live a clean and consecrated life, free from sin, strife, worldliness and pride, and must avoid attitudes and actions which tend to "grieve" or "quench" the Holy Spirit of God (Ephesians 4:29-32; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). We believe that the "initial" (or first) evidence of the reception of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (John 15:26, 27; Acts 2:1-4; 8:17, 18; 10:44-46; 19:6; 1 Corinthians 12:7). We do not believe this is the only evidence of the Spirit's baptism, but that it is the initial evidence just as it occurred in the repeated accounts of the Spirit's outpouring in the Acts of the Apostles. But there will be other evidences spelled out in our lives-the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22, 23), power to witness for Christ, power to endure the testings of faith and the oppositions of the world. We believe that the initial evidence of speaking with tongues is for everyone who receives the pentecostal baptism with the Holy Spirit, and we distinguish between this initial manifestation and the gift of tongues, which is not given to every Spirit-filled believer.

The Pentecostal Holiness Church believes in the gifts of the Spirit as set forth by the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14. We believe that they are "set in the Church" by the Holy Spirit; that He retains custody and control of the said gifts of "enablements," distributing or operating them "severally as He will." And we desire that our people may so live under the control of the Holy Spirit that these gifts may be manifested or used through consecrated individuals in the worship services where, when, and as they are needed, but all to the glory of God and the edifying of the body of Christ, and in accordance with the directions and decorum set forth in the chapters referred to above.