Islam is false

[FirstSunday33ad]

This is in response to a comment made by bhukkadakota but by the time I finished I realized it probably should be a seperate thread.

Islam can be proven false on its own writings; The Qur’an.

1) The Qur’an says that Allah gave two prior revelations to man, once to the Jews through Moses and once to the Christians through Jesus, but that both people corrupted the message and distorted its meaning.

But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them (2:59 AYA).

Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess. Therefore woe be unto them who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith (2:78-79 MP).

And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And vile was the bargain they made! (3:187 AYA)

Ignoring the problems and difficulties with this belief, is there any evidence to support it? No, there isn’t. There is sufficient textual documentation to prove that no significant corruption occurred in the NT and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls proved that the OT was faithfully handed down generation to generation. That there has been SOME corruption is not denied, but the Qur’an states the corruption was so bad that Allah had to reject the Christians and Jews as chosen people and choose the Arabs. If this were the case, we would expect that there would be evidence to support Allah’s statements. There is none.

2) The Qur’an describes the development of the fetus from “sperm” to “clot” to “lump” to “bone” to “flesh around the bone” to “human”. Muslims like to point to these verses as proof that only God could have given this information to Mohammed as – they say – this is how the fetus develops.

"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth, then placed him as a drop of seed in a safe lodging, then We fashioned the drop a clot, and of the clot We fashioned a lump, and of the lump We fashioned bones, and We clothed the bones (with) meat. Then We produced it as another creation."
Sura of The Believers (Al-Mu'minun) 23:12-14

But this in not in fact how a fetus develops. At no time can it be said to be a “clot” nor do the bones form before the muscles (meat). The entire description would match what an observer making a dissection of pregnant animals might see with the naked eye. So, was there such an observer? Yes. Hippocrates & Galen, a 2rd century physician described fetal development in exactly the same way: semen, clot, lump, bone, muscle, man.

3) The Qur’an has irresolvable contradictions that should not exist if it were a revelation from God. This is an especially important point as it is the most repeated charge made against the Bible by Muslims. Yet where the so-called contradictions in the Bible are often found to be more the mistake of the reader, this is not the case in the Qur’an. Here are a few of just some of the contradictions found within it.

Sura 4:79
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah;
but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself.
Sura 38:41
Commemorate Our Servant Job, behold he cried out to his Lord:
"Satan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!"

(If evil comes from us then why commemorate Job for saying it came from Satan?)

Sura 11:42-43
So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains,
and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest):
"O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!"
The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water."
Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah,
any but those on whom He hath mercy!" And the waves came between them,
and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.

(This is an impossible scenario. If the waves were “towering like mountains” and the Ark was already afloat, where was Noah’s son standing and how could he converse with his father and be heard?)

Sura 54:9
Before them the people of Noah rejected (their messenger):
They rejected Our servant and said, "Here is One possessed!"
And he was driven out.

Sura 11:38
Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark:
Every time that the Chiefs of his people passed by him,
they threw ridicule on him.

(If Noah was driven out by his people, how could the Chiefs of his people pass him by and ridicule him?)

Sura 4:157 - 158
That they said (in boast)
"We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah";
but they killed him not nor crucified him
but so it was made to appear to them
and those who differ therein are full of doubts
with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow
for of a surety they killed him not.

Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; ...

Sura 5:75
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; ...

Sura 3:144
And Muhammad is but a Messenger.
Verily all Messengers have passed away before him ...

(If all messengers have passed away, and Jesus was only a messenger, then how could he not have died but been raised up to Allah?)


There is in fact much more evidence that shows Mohammed invented Islam based on his own readings, personal philosophy and needs. So much so in fact that it is not surprising that Muslims have no desire to enter into any indepth examination of Islam and prefer to attack Christianity instead.

[mickiel]

I am curious, if you have the right to claim a religion false, then you are open to answer claims that your religion is just as false. State your religion and prove it is not false. This i can't wait to see.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 03:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=104743#post104743)
mickiel:

I am curious, if you have the right to claim a religion false, then you are open to answer claims that your religion is just as false. State your religion and prove it is not false. This i can't wait to see.

:shrug:

In case you don't know....that is exactly what sites like this set out to do.

Christianity is the only religion that doesn't run from the challenge that it "prove itself". Yes, it is open to the charge that it too is false, it is accused of this daily. The counter to this charge is being presented even as I type this response.

You want me to "prove" Christianity is not false? Okay, where would you like me to begin?

:solly:

[Jacob]

Today @ 06:05 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=104511#post104511)
FirstSunday33ad:

Islam can be proven false on its own writings; The Qur’an.

......

There is in fact much more evidence that shows Mohammed invented Islam based on his own readings, personal philosophy and needs. So much so in fact that it is not surprising that Muslims have no desire to enter into any indepth examination of Islam and prefer to attack Christianity instead.


But you quote from a translation. No translation can sufficiently convey the truth. You must learn Arabic in order to truly understand the Q'ran!

Or at least that's one way that Muslims avoid acknowledging that their book & their claims are contradictory.

My Indian Muslim friend was totally elusive whenever I'd point out verses like the ones you showed. The english never was right. I'd ask him for a better translation, and he'd say "No, you have to understand Arabic".

Islam has no need to examine itself, because it's the true religion. Just ask any Muslim if Mohammed could have been wrong. Oh, but don't ask that in a Muslim country, since it could get you legally murdered in the street.

Jacob

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 08:51 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=104748#post104748)
FirstSunday33ad:



:shrug:

In case you don't know....that is exactly what sites like this set out to do.

Christianity is the only religion that doesn't run from the challenge that it "prove itself". Yes, it is open to the charge that it too is false, it is accused of this daily. The counter to this charge is being presented even as I type this response.

You want me to "prove" Christianity is not false? Okay, where would you like me to begin?

:solly:

lets begin with you, prove to me that you are a christian, and if you cannot, then withdraw your claims against Islam.

[Jezz]

Jacob:
But you quote from a translation. No translation can sufficiently convey the truth. You must learn Arabic in order to truly understand the Q'ran!

Or at least that's one way that Muslims avoid acknowledging that their book & their claims are contradictory.
To be fair, most Christians do a similar thing (and with good reason). There are some seemingly difficult contradictions that are easily resolved with reference to the original Greek and Hebrew. I don't see anything wrong with a Muslim offering the same "excuse" for the Qu'ran.

My Indian Muslim friend was totally elusive whenever I'd point out verses like the ones you showed. The english never was right. I'd ask him for a better translation, and he'd say "No, you have to understand Arabic".
Well, if I understand you correctly, then this is perhaps where typical Christian apologists differ from your friend. A Christian will often claim that a translation is not 100% faithful to the original text, but will usually offer an alternative translation (albeit a verbose one). However, you seem to be saying that your Muslim friend refused to even provide a verbose translation, in which case I would see this as a shortcoming. Or perhaps he didn't personally understand Arabic, and thus couldn't give you the translation you were looking for?

[FirstSunday33ad]

Yesterday @ 10:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105185#post105185)
mickiel:



lets begin with you, prove to me that you are a christian, and if you cannot, then withdraw your claims against Islam.

This doesn't make sense. How do my claims against Islam become false - and therefore should be withdrawn - if I am not a Christian? :huh:

Oh well, nevermind. Here is my proof:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I put these beliefs into practice by prayer, communion, study of scripture and striving to live as Christ commanded.

That makes me a Christian in any book I’ve ever read. :hi:

[Jacob]

Today @ 03:34 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105185#post105185)
mickiel:



lets begin with you, prove to me that you are a christian, and if you cannot, then withdraw your claims against Islam.

This doesn't fit what he did.

He says that self-contradiction in the Q'ran proves that Islam is false. He did not say that something is false unless proven true. This is valid because the Q'ran claims to be without error. It is claimed that it existed in heaven (or wherever the Q'ran says that God exists) before it came to earth, and that it is as perfect today as when it existed in heaven.

You must show the contradiction in his life or belief in order to follow his example/logic. So, which contradiction in his life do you cite? Wait, Christians do no claim to be perfect. We agree with the Bible where it says that we are sinners in need of grace. So you can find contradictions/sins in his life, and you have not shown him to be a false Christian.

Jacob

[Jacob]

Today @ 06:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105285#post105285)
Jezz:


To be fair, most Christians do a similar thing (and with good reason). There are some seemingly difficult contradictions that are easily resolved with reference to the original Greek and Hebrew. I don't see anything wrong with a Muslim offering the same "excuse" for the Qu'ran.


Well, if I understand you correctly, then this is perhaps where typical Christian apologists differ from your friend. A Christian will often claim that a translation is not 100% faithful to the original text, but will usually offer an alternative translation (albeit a verbose one). However, you seem to be saying that your Muslim friend refused to even provide a verbose translation, in which case I would see this as a shortcoming. Or perhaps he didn't personally understand Arabic, and thus couldn't give you the translation you were looking for?

First, I studied Greek and understand the limitations of any translation. But Christians do not require understanding of Greek in order to understand the meaning of any passage.

The Muslim says that one must understand Arabic to understand the Q'ran. No translation, however verbose correctly conveys the meaning of the Q'ran. My friend reads & speaks Arabic, but refused to explain the problem.

In Muslim thinking, the Arabic language is the perfect language, and is spoken in heaven, & it has always been this way. They believe that Arabic language, culture, and Islam are superior to all other languages, cultures, and religions, in every way.

Jacob

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 01:56 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105285#post105285)
Jezz:


To be fair, most Christians do a similar thing (and with good reason). There are some seemingly difficult contradictions that are easily resolved with reference to the original Greek and Hebrew. I don't see anything wrong with a Muslim offering the same "excuse" for the Qu'ran.


Well, if I understand you correctly, then this is perhaps where typical Christian apologists differ from your friend. A Christian will often claim that a translation is not 100% faithful to the original text, but will usually offer an alternative translation (albeit a verbose one). However, you seem to be saying that your Muslim friend refused to even provide a verbose translation, in which case I would see this as a shortcoming. Or perhaps he didn't personally understand Arabic, and thus couldn't give you the translation you were looking for?

Actually, although Muslims do say this, their alternative translations are no better at explaining the problems. For example, they cannot deny that the fetal development described in the Qur'an is "bone then muscle” and that this is not accurate. Nor can they deny that this development was initially described by the Greeks centuries before Mohammed.

The translation explanation also does nothing to explain the "prior revelations were corrupted" statements in the Qur'an. Since the historic record shows that this did not happen as the Qur'an claims, translation difficulties do not help.

The fact is Muslims do recognize many serious problems with what the Qur'an says and generally avoid discussing these problems. In any debate with a Muslim they will try to focus on the difficulties in the Bible and try to avoid discussing the Qur'an completely.

But an important point to remember, generally Christians do not say the Bible is exactly as it was written and is uncorrupted. We say it is inerrant – namely that the message has not been changed. Muslims say the Qur'an is exactly as it was written, that it is incorruptible and perfect. It is this claim that proves their undoing.

[bhukkadakota]

Christianity is the only religion that doesn't run from the challenge that it "prove itself".

what about buddhism?
i really respect this religion because they are welcoming to everyone whether there buddhists, non buddhists and animals etc.
its not corrupted at all because they are such peaceful people.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 12:14 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105566#post105566)
bhukkadakota:

Christianity is the only religion that doesn't run from the challenge that it "prove itself".

what about buddhism?
i really respect this religion because they are welcoming to everyone whether there buddhists, non buddhists and animals etc.
its not corrupted at all because they are such peaceful people.

Have you ever tried to debate a Buddhist?

Seeker: How do you know Buddhism is true?
Buddhist: First you must find yourself then you will find your truth.
S: So let’s say I find myself and conclude that Buddhism is false?
B: Then for you it will be false and that will be your truth.
S: So Buddhism is false?
B: If you wish it.
S: Do you find it false?
B: I find it as I find it, what it is for me is my truth.
S: But if I find it false and you find it true, which of us is right?
B: Both.

In other words you can’t say it “doesn’t run from the challenge to prove itself”, it doesn’t even recognize that there is such a challenge.

And although your stereotypical Buddhist may be a sweetheart (no debate there) so is your stereotypical monk.

[Bob Jenkins]

Seeker: How do you know Buddhism is true?
Buddhist: First you must find yourself then you will find your truth.
S: So let’s say I find myself and conclude that Buddhism is false?
B: Then for you it will be false and that will be your truth.
S: So Buddhism is false?
B: If you wish it.
S: Do you find it false?
B: I find it as I find it, what it is for me is my truth.
S: But if I find it false and you find it true, which of us is right?
B: Both.

Fairly well captured.


In other words you can’t say it “doesn’t run from the challenge to prove itself”, it doesn’t even recognize that there is such a challenge.

Exactly! Thou art that!

[mickiel]

05-23-2003 @ 03:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=105505#post105505)
FirstSunday33ad:



This doesn't make sense. How do my claims against Islam become false - and therefore should be withdrawn - if I am not a Christian? :huh:

Oh well, nevermind. Here is my proof:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I put these beliefs into practice by prayer, communion, study of scripture and striving to live as Christ commanded.

That makes me a Christian in any book I’ve ever read. :hi:

So anyone who writes these same words to me that you have writtened, is a christian?

Concerning your own christianity and religion, if you cannot prove you are a christian, and that your religion is true, any claim you make against another religion can be ignored. Why you do not understand that logic, i just don't know.

According to what you have written above, belief makes you a christian, i cannot accept that claim, the devil believes in everything you have listed, then you claim you put these beliefs into practice, explain to me how i can believe that you are telling the truth?

[FirstSunday33ad]

Yesterday @ 11:52 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=107758#post107758)
mickiel:



So anyone who writes these same words to me that you have writtened, is a christian?

Concerning your own christianity and religion, if you cannot prove you are a christian, and that your religion is true, any claim you make against another religion can be ignored. Why you do not understand that logic, i just don't know.

According to what you have written above, belief makes you a christian, i cannot accept that claim, the devil believes in everything you have listed, then you claim you put these beliefs into practice, explain to me how i can believe that you are telling the truth?

“So anyone who writes these same words to me that you have writtened, is a christian?”

No, anyone who believes and puts into practice these words is a Christian.


“Concerning your own christianity and religion, if you cannot prove you are a christian, and that your religion is true, any claim you make against another religion can be ignored. Why you do not understand that logic, i just don't know.”

I can’t understand your logic because there is no logic in your opinion. How does my being a Christian or my ability or inability to “prove” my beliefs affect the truth or fiction of anything else? Why, if I am unable to “prove” my “religion” is true, can we ignore any other claim against any other religion I may make? Your statement doesn’t make sense.



”According to what you have written above, belief makes you a christian, i cannot accept that claim, the devil believes in everything you have listed, then you claim you put these beliefs into practice, explain to me how i can believe that you are telling the truth?”

You divided my statement of faith into parts, disregarded the first part and questioned my truth regarding the second part. I have made my statement of faith; I have declared how this statement of faith affects my behaviour. You are free to question it all you want, it makes no difference. But again – even if I am lying and am a complete hypocrite and neither believe or put into practice any of these articles of faith – HOW DOES THIS AFFECT ISLAM?

If something is false, it is false. What I may believe or disbelieve doesn’t affect this reality. It is an objective truth that Islam is provably, demonstratably false. Christianity doesn’t have to be true for Islam to be false. They can both be false.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 02:09 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=107989#post107989)
FirstSunday33ad:



“So anyone who writes these same words to me that you have writtened, is a christian?”

No, anyone who believes and puts into practice these words is a Christian.

So you are claiming the actions of a person defines their christianity, or their conversion. What makes one a christian-- is what they DO! This is not the biblical definition of conversion, its traditional response. Conversion is not defined by works.


“Concerning your own christianity and religion, if you cannot prove you are a christian, and that your religion is true, any claim you make against another religion can be ignored. Why you do not understand that logic, i just don't know.”

I can’t understand your logic because there is no logic in your opinion. How does my being a Christian or my ability or inability to “prove” my beliefs affect the truth or fiction of anything else? Why, if I am unable to “prove” my “religion” is true, can we ignore any other claim against any other religion I may make? Your statement doesn’t make sense.

Perhaps i underestimate your ability to comprehend - me. Allow me to put it in this manner; You have claimed another religon as false, rather than dispute that claim, i have asserted my right as a reader of your thoughts, to question the validity of the the personage and personal religon of the accuser. In my view, if you cannot validate yourself or your own religon, i see no value in reading your thoughts. Incidently, i learded this approach from the bible itself, it advises to prove ALL things, but many christians do not like having to do that. You claim your religon can prove itself, then its followers should do the same. Of course, most get insulted when asked. They are very comfortable condemning other religons, but stiff necked when asked to defend their own.






”According to what you have written above, belief makes you a christian, i cannot accept that claim, the devil believes in everything you have listed, then you claim you put these beliefs into practice, explain to me how i can believe that you are telling the truth?”

You divided my statement of faith into parts, disregarded the first part and questioned my truth regarding the second part. I have made my statement of faith; I have declared how this statement of faith affects my behaviour. You are free to question it all you want, it makes no difference. But again – even if I am lying and am a complete hypocrite and neither believe or put into practice any of these articles of faith – HOW DOES THIS AFFECT ISLAM?

It affects Islam by people as yourself asserting claims that influence the minds of others. It affects Islam by damaging a reputation based on your opinon. Your statement of faith proves nothing according to the bibles definition of conversion, in fact it is complettely oppisite of the biblical definition of christianity.



If something is false, it is false. What I may believe or disbelieve doesn’t affect this reality.

I agree with this statement. I never stated Islam to be true, i just know you cannot prove it to be anything, you can't even prove your own, much less disprove another. You need to turn from the habit of claiming others false, until you find your own self definition.

It is an objective truth that Islam is provably, demonstratably false. Christianity doesn’t have to be true for Islam to be false. They can both be false.

They both are. But the followers of either cannot see it. And what you need to see is that one false religon cannot prove another false, its called the blind accuseing the blind.

[FirstSunday33ad]

Christianity does not "prove" Islam false, Islam's own words prove it is false.

I am beginning to see that you did not read my first post. You made an assumption - based on the fact that I am a Christian -that I was claiming that because Chrisitianity is true Islam must be false. I made no such claim.

Go back to the top of this thread and read my original message. You will see that the truth or fiction of Christianity does not even enter the arguement.

Islam is false because of what IT says, not because of what Christianity says.

[Jacob]

Today @ 07:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=108678#post108678)
mickiel:



They both are. But the followers of either cannot see it. And what you need to see is that one false religon cannot prove another false, its called the blind accuseing the blind.


FirstSunday33 didn't say that Christianity proves Islam to be false. He is saying that Islam's holy book, the Q'ran, proves Islam false.

But it sounds like you actually agree with FirstSunday33 (any myself), that Islam is false. Why do you believe that Islam is false? Or did you come to that conclusion through prejudice instead of through reason?

Jacob

[zionstructure]

There are only 3 real choices in the way of religion... 1. none are absolutely right, but all have some truth, and all can lead to enlightenment/salvation. 2. only 1 is right and everyone else is wrong. or 3. all are right because the world is a relative place.

When a christian says they can prove islam wrong with thier own scripture, well it must be acknowledged that a jew can prove christianity wrong with thier own scripture. and a sumerian can do the same with a jew...it keeps going and going and its all rather pointless. So why not just accept the golden rule that is strung through all religions? Islam has the same idea as Judaism, worship, ritual, submit. While christianity has "Believe and be saved"...and neither idea really helps mankind out very much in the end.

As i've said before...every mystic tradition in the monotheistic faiths have the same truths.... kabbalah, gnosticism, and the sufis all agree on the primary things...and these were the sources of the ritual part remember...so maybe you all would benefit from looking at the cause and not the effect.



:cheers:

[Jacob]

Today @ 03:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109928#post109928)
zionstructure:

There are only 3 real choices in the way of religion... 1. none are absolutely right, but all have some truth, and all can lead to enlightenment/salvation. 2. only 1 is right and everyone else is wrong. or 3. all are right because the world is a relative place.


Correct, these are the basic choices.



When a christian says they can prove islam wrong with thier own scripture, well it must be acknowledged that a jew can prove christianity wrong with thier own scripture. and a sumerian can do the same with a jew...it keeps going and going and its all rather pointless. So why not just accept the golden rule that is strung through all religions? Islam has the same idea as Judaism, worship, ritual, submit. While christianity has "Believe and be saved"...and neither idea really helps mankind out very much in the end.


Wrong. Simply wrong. Purely wrong. Foolishly wrong.

Did I mention that your proposition is wrong? Perhaps if you gave an argument instead of simply making a proposition we'd have something to discuss.



As i've said before...every mystic tradition in the monotheistic faiths have the same truths.... kabbalah, gnosticism, and the sufis all agree on the primary things...and these were the sources of the ritual part remember...so maybe you all would benefit from looking at the cause and not the effect.



:cheers:

What golden rule is that? That infidels must convert or be killed?

The "golden rule" is part of the Judeo-Christian heritage, and is not truly repeated in Islam. The Sufi's don't represent all Islam.

Your arrogance in this matter is truly disturbing, to all members of all the faiths you implicate. Do devout Muslims, Jews, Christians, kabbalah (?), gnostics, etc., agree with you? No, we all disagree with you. You dismiss most of what each of us believes and tell us that most of what we hold dear is actually unimportant or simply wrong. You're doing exactly what you find fault with in people of faith.

Jacob

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 10:00 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=109279#post109279)
Jacob:




FirstSunday33 didn't say that Christianity proves Islam to be false. He is saying that Islam's holy book, the Q'ran, proves Islam false.

But it sounds like you actually agree with FirstSunday33 (any myself), that Islam is false. Why do you believe that Islam is false? Or did you come to that conclusion through prejudice instead of through reason?

Jacob

Rev. 12:9, the whole world is deceived. I do not see ant religon on eart as representing God, none of them. His true flock is scattered and un-noticed by the world, the scripture teaches no other description of the true church.

[Jacob]

Yesterday @ 09:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=110332#post110332)
mickiel:



Rev. 12:9, the whole world is deceived. I do not see ant religon on eart as representing God, none of them. His true flock is scattered and un-noticed by the world, the scripture teaches no other description of the true church.

How can you consider Rev 12:9 to be true while dismissing the parts of the Bible you dislike?

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Or is this part that you dismiss as untrue or without authority?

Jacob

[JardinPrayer]

True or false, isn't tolerance really where we want to go here? I mean, Christians are told that we are to "love one another." I don't believe Jesus was just talking about other Christians when He said that. After all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans and everyone else are all creations of the one true God. It's okay to disagree with the religion, but it's not okay to judge the people who follow it.

I submit two scriptures I believe support the notion that God provided for all His people, some of them in different ways than Salvation or Christianity in general:

John 14:2: In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

and

John 10:16: 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Needless to say, I get into trouble with this philosophy, and I expect to do so here. Still, I believe love conquers all, God is love, and I cannot accept the notion that God would not provide for cultures where Christianity is either not allowed or not widely known. Did He create the aboriginal cultures living in isolated communities just hoping a missionary would come and teach them about Jesus? Did He just leave them out there as wretches with a meaningless existence? Man is God's favorite creation, above the angels and all others. ALL men. Everyone.

JardinPrayer

[Jacob]

Today @ 06:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111601#post111601)
JardinPrayer:

True or false, isn't tolerance really where we want to go here? I mean, Christians are told that we are to "love one another."

What's love got to do with it? If you're talking about tolerance, then find verses about tolerance. But you're not talking about "tolerance", you're talking about ignoring those passages which teach that there is one way to God, through Christ, and that the consequences of not following this way leads to eternal death.

I don't think it's loving to let a baby crawl into traffic. In the same way, I don't think it's loving to let a Muslim believe he is going to Paradise when I believe he is going to eternal hellfire.

Jacob

[mickiel]

Today @ 06:17 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111601#post111601)
JardinPrayer:

True or false, isn't tolerance really where we want to go here? I mean, Christians are told that we are to "love one another." I don't believe Jesus was just talking about other Christians when He said that. After all Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans and everyone else are all creations of the one true God. It's okay to disagree with the religion, but it's not okay to judge the people who follow it.

I submit two scriptures I believe support the notion that God provided for all His people, some of them in different ways than Salvation or Christianity in general:



and



Needless to say, I get into trouble with this philosophy, and I expect to do so here. Still, I believe love conquers all, God is love, and I cannot accept the notion that God would not provide for cultures where Christianity is either not allowed or not widely known. Did He create the aboriginal cultures living in isolated communities just hoping a missionary would come and teach them about Jesus? Did He just leave them out there as wretches with a meaningless existence? Man is God's favorite creation, above the angels and all others. ALL men. Everyone.

JardinPrayer

Very well written Jardin, you are correct, it will not be received here at this place. This place is powered by the christian elite, they view themselves as right, and of course all others as condemned. This mindset cannot be reached or reason with, but i like trying anyway.

[mickiel]

Today @ 04:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111536#post111536)
Jacob:



How can you consider Rev 12:9 to be true while dismissing the parts of the Bible you dislike?

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

Or is this part that you dismiss as untrue or without authority?

Jacob

These verses have absolutely nothing at all to do with the deception of a whole world. It shows the future of mankind, it shows salvation, but it also shows that satans church accuses the bretheren. Christianity is the most accuseing church on earth, it condemns the vast majority of mankind and teaches that to be Gods will. Christianity is the satanic influenced accuser of the bretheren, it has accused more men of being sinfully condemn that any other group i have studied.

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 05:56 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=111960#post111960)
Jacob:



What's love got to do with it? If you're talking about tolerance, then find verses about tolerance. But you're not talking about "tolerance", you're talking about ignoring those passages which teach that there is one way to God, through Christ, and that the consequences of not following this way leads to eternal death.

I don't think it's loving to let a baby crawl into traffic. In the same way, I don't think it's loving to let a Muslim believe he is going to Paradise when I believe he is going to eternal hellfire.

Jacob

Firstly, if you live in the USA, we do have something called Freedom of Religion here. Even Christians cannot agree on something as simple as salvation, baptism, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, I am by no means ignoring the scriptures that say Jesus is the only way to the Father and the Kingdom and eternal life. For goodness sakes, that's why I'M a Christian!

Thirdly, and most importantly, God has certainly tolerated an awful lot from His favorite creation over the course of our existance. I'd call that a pretty enormous demonstration of His love. God IS love...if He does it, it is of love. Hence, tolerance is part of love. Do you have a spouse? Don't you tolerate things about her out of love? Or, anyone you love, for that matter? Even when Abraham and Sarah showed little enough faith to try to "help God along," in His promise, producing Ishmael (the line from which Muslims descend), God told him, (paraphrasing, before you get all huffy) "Hey, he's not the son I promised you, but he is yours and I'll give him a nation, too." Wouldn't you call that tolerance? I mean, gee whiz, if God were as rigid, intolerant, and unforgiving as some of the Christians I've encountered in these boards, I would be cowering in a corner fearing for my immortal soul!

Blessings,

JardinPrayer

[Jacob]

Yesterday @ 11:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112042#post112042)
JardinPrayer:



Firstly, if you live in the USA, we do have something called Freedom of Religion here. Even Christians cannot agree on something as simple as salvation, baptism, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Right. I believe that Muslims should be able to practice their religion, unless it infringes on the rights of others. They've still got problems with their holy book contradicting their theology.



Thirdly, and most importantly, God has certainly tolerated an awful lot from His favorite creation over the course of our existance. I'd call that a pretty enormous demonstration of His love. God IS love...if He does it, it is of love. Hence, tolerance is part of love.


Could you cite some verses on God being tolerant? I agree that we perceive tolerance, but how about some verses.

God is tolerant and God is love.
God is wrathful and God is love.
God is judge and God is love.
God is jealous and God is love.

To select tolerance as the best descriptor of God's love is to presume that what feels loving to you elevates it above God's other attributes. Some of the most loving ways I interact with my children are ways that they complain about the most.

Jacob.

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 09:50 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112588#post112588)
Jacob:

To select tolerance as the best descriptor of God's love is to presume that what feels loving to you elevates it above God's other attributes. Some of the most loving ways I interact with my children are ways that they complain about the most.

Well, for starters, how about John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

The whole reason this dramatic act was necessary was because we had racked up so much offense and sin, we could never properly atone for it by God's standards on our own. So, like He did in the Old Testament, He made a contract (covenant) with Himself - the only kind that cannot be broken - to cover us from His very wrath!

When He decided to destroy the world in the days of Noah (for many of the same reasons he later sent Jesus), He responded to Noah's appeal that there must be SOMETHING worth saving in man. God was turned by Noah's plea and in fact promised never to destroy mankind again. So, now He's in a pickle...He's made a promise and God does not break His promises. Hence, Jesus...the supreme sacrifice...made out of love AND TOLERANCE. Since God cannot abide sin and has promised not to destroy us, He has provided a path by which we can be cleansed no matter how much we mess up. Wouldn't you call that tolerance? I absolutely love the poetry and perfection in God's ways.

Also, as we move from the Old Testament into the New, we see God showing less and less wrath, more and more mercy and grace. He is demonstrating to us with the New Covenant exactly what he wants us to do and leaves us with just the warning that if we do not allow Him to circumcize our hearts with Christ, the wrath will come in the end time. There really isn't any more smiting and plagues of locusts once we get to Jesus. There is healing and favor and love. The only time you see Jesus get angry is when the temple is defiled...even when He is being persecuted, beaten, and crucified, He does not show anger or wrath...He does not hurl threats...He offers Himself up FOR US.

Hope this comes close to helping illustrate my point, Jacob.

Blessings,

JardinPrayer

[Jacob]

Today @ 04:45 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112696#post112696)
JardinPrayer:



Well, for starters, how about John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

The whole reason this dramatic act was necessary was because we had racked up so much offense and sin, we could never properly atone for it by God's standards on our own. So, like He did in the Old Testament, He made a contract (covenant) with Himself - the only kind that cannot be broken - to cover us from His very wrath!

Indeed. He is today wrathful toward our sin, and we need the covering of Christ's blood.



When He decided to destroy the world in the days of Noah (for many of the same reasons he later sent Jesus), He responded to Noah's appeal that there must be SOMETHING worth saving in man. God was turned by Noah's plea and in fact promised never to destroy mankind again. So, now He's in a pickle...He's made a promise and God does not break His promises. Hence, Jesus...the supreme sacrifice...made out of love AND TOLERANCE.

Where's the verse on "tolerance"? This word describes "putting up with" something we don't like. God is not putting up with anything. Without Christ, we are under His wrath. With Christ, we are completely forgiven.



Since God cannot abide sin and has promised not to destroy us, He has provided a path by which we can be cleansed no matter how much we mess up. Wouldn't you call that tolerance? I absolutely love the poetry and perfection in God's ways.

Mercy & Grace, as you note below, not tolerance.


Also, as we move from the Old Testament into the New, we see God showing less and less wrath, more and more mercy and grace. He is demonstrating to us with the New Covenant exactly what he wants us to do and leaves us with just the warning that if we do not allow Him to circumcize our hearts with Christ, the wrath will come in the end time. There really isn't any more smiting and plagues of locusts once we get to Jesus. There is healing and favor and love. The only time you see Jesus get angry is when the temple is defiled...even when He is being persecuted, beaten, and crucified, He does not show anger or wrath...He does not hurl threats...He offers Himself up FOR US.

Hope this comes close to helping illustrate my point, Jacob.

Blessings,

JardinPrayer

I understand your point. God is loving & gracious & merciful. I still don't see "tolerance" as a Biblical attribute of God. I also disagree about God's wrath. He's not showing it toward His people or their enemies, instead he's storing it for the day of judgement.

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Joh 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Rom 3:5; 5:9; 9:22; 12:19; 13:4-5
Eph 5:6
Col 3:6
1Thess 1:10; 2:16; 5:9
Heb 3:11; 4:3
Rev 6:16-17; etc....


I think we'll end up having to agree to disagree if you insist on "tolerance" as an attribute of God. But about the Muslim issue, they are under God's wrath. The only loving thing for me to do is to persuade them to come to Christ.


Jacob

[Undomiel]

Jacob,

Where's the verse on "tolerance"? This word describes "putting up with" something we don't like. God is not putting up with anything. Without Christ, we are under His wrath. With Christ, we are completely forgiven.

:yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

[FirstSunday33ad]

Today @ 01:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112805#post112805)
Undomiel:

Jacob,

Where's the verse on "tolerance"? This word describes "putting up with" something we don't like. God is not putting up with anything. Without Christ, we are under His wrath. With Christ, we are completely forgiven.

:yipee: :yipee: :yipee:

Just a small clarification - without Christ, we are under the Law and judgment. I understood what you meant but non-believers love to jump on words like "wrath".

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 01:31 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=112803#post112803)
Jacob:

Where's the verse on "tolerance"? This word describes "putting up with" something we don't like. God is not putting up with anything. Without Christ, we are under His wrath. With Christ, we are completely forgiven.

Okay, so He doesn't call himself Tolerant in His word...but you should know by now that there's an awful lot of reading between the lines in scripture. If I had a child who just insisted on being disobedient every day, I would chastize (which, scripture says, is something we should be honored by when God does it because it shows He's interested in us), but I would tolerate a good deal of it out of love. I don't think we're in disagreement that tolerance is an attribute of love and that God IS love. Are we? Maybe we are.


I understand your point. God is loving &amp, gracious & merciful. I still don't see "tolerance" as a Biblical attribute of God. I also disagree about God's wrath. He's not showing it toward His people or their enemies, instead he's storing it for the day of judgement.

"Storing" is an interesting word to choose. I don't think God's wrath increases with time, since he is timeless and sees from the foundations of the earth to the last days. He said he would not destroy us again. He's also saying that when the world ends there will be a judgement. In the meantime, He's TOLERATING. Once we're saved, we continue to sin. Sometimes we ask forgiveness, sometimes we don't. But, our salvation doesn't come and go with this disobedience. It is TOLERATED.


I think we'll end up having to agree to disagree if you insist on "tolerance" as an attribute of God.

Guess we do disagree on that after all!

But about the Muslim issue, they are under God's wrath. The only loving thing for me to do is to persuade them to come to Christ.

I agree and I say exactly that in the Religious Tolerance section of the website mentioned in my footer. However, as Christians, we are to Love One Another and, as I've said, I don't believe that means just other Christians. If love isn't meant for all mankind, how would we go forth as disciples and spread the Good News? No sense talking to ourselves. But, I go on to say on my site that, should someone not have ears to hear, it is not for us to withdraw our love or to judge or condemn. We are told over and over in the New Testament that it is not for us to judge but for God. We are to love. We can warn the way Jesus did about the last day, but we must also love the way Jesus did.

Blessings,

JardinPrayer

[Undomiel]

It's good news to my earbones. :teeth: err, eyebones? Eh, it's GOOD NEWS FOR PEOPLE.

[zionstructure]

05-28-2003 @ 05:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=110035#post110035)
Jacob:


Correct, these are the basic choices.


Wrong. Simply wrong. Purely wrong. Foolishly wrong.

Did I mention that your proposition is wrong? Perhaps if you gave an argument instead of simply making a proposition we'd have something to discuss.



What golden rule is that? That infidels must convert or be killed?

The "golden rule" is part of the Judeo-Christian heritage, and is not truly repeated in Islam. The Sufi's don't represent all Islam.

Your arrogance in this matter is truly disturbing, to all members of all the faiths you implicate. Do devout Muslims, Jews, Christians, kabbalah (?), gnostics, etc., agree with you? No, we all disagree with you. You dismiss most of what each of us believes and tell us that most of what we hold dear is actually unimportant or simply wrong. You're doing exactly what you find fault with in people of faith.

Jacob

What golden rule Jacob?

There is a passage in the Qu'ran that says Anyone who does harm or kills one man is infact killing all of humanity. And if you save one man or help one man, you are saving the rest of humanity as well. The Jewish Teacher Hillel around the same time as Christ said "Love your neighbor as yourself, the rest is just commentary"...And we both know Jesus two commandents for man kind....so now how again is it that all three don't have the same basic golden rule? You are correct that not all muslims, jews, and christians agree with me...but kabbalists do agree with sufis on many issues, and the gnostics ..well...there aren't many around to ask now is there? but thier gospels agree with the kabbalistic and sufi teachings.

There are extremists in every faith...and if they think i'm wrong...Good. because as buddha teaches...If you pull the string to tightly, it will break, if you don't pull it at all...it won't play...Any extremism is wrong. i take the idea of "i'm right, you are wrong, you are going to hell because my 2000 year old collection of writing says so" as very extremist.

:cheers:

[Jacob]

Today @ 12:39 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=113970#post113970)
zionstructure:

There are extremists in every faith...and if they think i'm wrong...Good. because as buddha teaches...If you pull the string to tightly, it will break, if you don't pull it at all...it won't play...Any extremism is wrong. i take the idea of "i'm right, you are wrong, you are going to hell because my 2000 year old collection of writing says so" as very extremist.

:cheers:

I'm as extremist as Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jacob

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 06:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114551#post114551)
Jacob:



I'm as extremist as Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jacob

Actually, my biggest objection, Jacob, is that you're dug in so deeply in your position, there is no room for broadening your experience. Even Jesus was turned, we are told in Matthew 15:24, when a Caananite woman pleaded with him for her daughter's healing:

24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." 27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Granted, this was a test of her faith (after all, Jesus later told his apostles to go and make disciples of all who hear), but it is also a lesson, as is everything Jesus did. It is a lesson not to judge on first impressions. It is a lesson that human beings are all entitled to the same love and consideration as everyone else.

Sure, Jesus told us there is no way to the Father but through him. But, you never addressed my quotes earlier in this thread about "other sheep about which you know nothing...I must bring them, too." Don't you think it is at least POSSIBLE that God provided for those who might not hear? Don't you think he wants to give his favorite creation every chance to be in Heaven with Him eternally? He DID create us all, didn't he?

I think I'm echoing what zionstructure was trying to say...there may be a reason for the common-ness in the world's great deities and belief structures. Look closely at the birth of Buddhism...you can even watch the movie version: Little Buddha starring Keannu Reeves if you prefer. Siddhartha, the Dalai Lama's, walk was awfully similar to that of Jesus in a whole lot of ways. Is that an accident? Loving one another and respecting life and being honorable are tenets of most major religions, most especially the chain of Judaism...to Christianity...to Islam. If all three religions worship the same God and honor scripture (Muslims even hold Jesus in very high regard, although as a great prophet of God, not the Messiah) - can this be all bad?

Hey, I'm a Christian. I believe I am following the path laid out for me by God. I also believe it is my responsibility as a Christian to go and make disciples of all I can. BUT, I believe it is possible (indeed, it would be very much like the God I serve) that he laid out very different paths for other sheep about which we know nothing. Isn't there any room in your heart, mind, and soul to entertain that notion? Okay, Jesus warns us that everyone who does not follow Him will burn eternally in the lake of fire. He also says he was sent specifically to address the chosen people - Jews (as mentioned in the above scripture). He was sent to teach them how to be and then they were sent out to make the gospel available to everyone who would hear it. Perhaps, though, the warning was only meant for those who heard and did not follow. God already knows who His own are...ONLY God. That exclusive club may possibly include people you would not approve of. We'll see in Heaven...should you meet with His approval on the Last Day. Don't forget, Jesus also told the Pharisees who made great public shows of faith but had blackness in their hearts that He did not know them and they would not be admitted to Heaven. The thief on the cross beside him, though, would.

I just don't get the feeling you're motivated by love. It feels more like rigidity to me. The battle is not yours, God said, It's mine. We are to love and REST in the Lord. Don't be so arrogant as to believe you're the only one with the right answer. Only God has them all. Relax. Open your heart. I'd suggest walking in Christ, but your image of Him seems to be as a wrathful tyrant. Why would you worship that?

Blessings

JardinPrayer

[FirstSunday33ad]

What does this mean? Be nice or seek God? Love your brother or do to those as you want done to you?

Although not all have heard of Jesus, in their hearts they are His sheep and hear His voice. But the person who hears His voice - either through the Gospel or intuitively - and does not come to Him is not one of His sheep and is lost.

The Buddhist who keeps to the four fold path dismissing Jesus as just another Buddha, the Muslim who continues to follow Mohammed dismissing Jesus as just another messenger, the Jew who continues to follow Rabbinic Law dismissing Jesus as a false prophet, have all made their claim and all are in the same position. They have heard the call and have not followed.

You may not have to be a "Christian" to be saved, but you do have to have ears and eyes. You do have to follow the Shepard to be one of His sheep.

That is why Christ healed the woman's daughter - she heard and followed.

[Jacob]

Yesterday @ 11:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=114583#post114583)
JardinPrayer:



Actually, my biggest objection, Jacob, is that you're dug in so deeply in your position, there is no room for broadening your experience. Even Jesus was turned, we are told in Matthew 15:24, when a Caananite woman pleaded with him for her daughter's healing:
....

My experience in Christ is not really your concern. I am a member of a church where I am involved in small group ministry. In this context I bare my soul & ask for advice & prayer from those I know & trust, who walk with the Lord in integrity & perseverance amidst failure & compromise alongside God empowered righteousness.

I find it amusing that we weren't talking about my spirituality, and now this is now your biggest concern.



I just don't get the feeling you're motivated by love. It feels more like rigidity to me.


You may not "feel" that I'm motivated by love. Such is the nature of internet discussion boards. But how have you come to judge my heart & motives through the internet? You took offense that I argued for the position that the Q'ran contradicts Islam. Then you suggested "tolerance" as the way to best deal with Islam & Muslims.





The battle is not yours, God said, It's mine. We are to love and REST in the Lord.



Ahem. We are to rest in the work of Christ for our salvation. We are not so rest from working for the Kingdom.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Gal 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Phi 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
Col 1:29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;


Don't be so arrogant as to believe you're the only one with the right answer. Only God has them all. Relax. Open your heart.



Are you done with your impersonation of the Holy Spirit?

This is the precious part... In your arrogance you judge me, then call me arrogant.

As to arrogance.... I don't presume I'm the only one with the right answer. I join with Methodist, Baptist, Bible Church, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Ev. Free, Ev. Covenant, etc., etc., etc. and recognize the truth of the Gospel. You'd have me think there is either no truth to recognize, or it is beyond us to have confidence in knowing the truth. Scripture teaches otherwise...

1Ti 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

...or more to the point, you appear to suggest that we become like those Paul criticizes...
2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.



I'd suggest walking in Christ, but your image of Him seems to be as a wrathful tyrant. Why would you worship that?

Blessings

JardinPrayer


Another judgment. You must have the gift of judging others...

I suggest you learn the Biblical meaning of walking in Christ. It includes coming to particular truth.

I don't worship a wrathful tyrant. I worship the One who is rightfully wrathful, in loving holyness. You appear to worship some God who is not mentioned in the Bible.


Jacob

[JardinPrayer]

Today @ 01:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115103#post115103)
Jacob:


My experience in Christ is not really your concern...
I find it amusing that we weren't talking about my spirituality, and now this is now your biggest concern.

Read my post again, Jacob. What I said had nothing to do with your experience in Christ or your spirituality...I described my concern that your manner of expression, your unwillingness to open yourself to the ideas of others (whose experiences with Christ and their spirituality are as valid as your own) was a downright, stinkin', dirty shame.


You may not "feel" that I'm motivated by love. Such is the nature of internet discussion boards. But how have you come to judge my heart & motives through the internet?
What leads you to state that this is the nature of internet discussion boards? There are a whole lot of people on internet discussion boards (indeed, this very one) who are motivated by love and education and expansion of their experience through idea exchange. And, I haven't judged anything at all about you. I have made an observation about your conduct and your stated viewpoints, which you have put on display for us to exercise our first amendment rights in response to. I don't know what's happening in your heart, but I do know what I read. As for your motives, I said I didn't get the feeling you are motivated by love. I was stating an impression based on the way you express yourself. Gee, you start a paragraph defending your right not to be motivated by love because it is the nature of internet discussion boards and then you follow up by hurling an accusation at me for being judgemental. I think that pretty obviously backs up my impression. You're stating your opinions and impressions, too. Did I call you judgemental? And if I did, does that make either of us any more or less accountable for judging others? I suggest a good look in the mirror.

You took offense that I argued for the position that the Q'ran contradicts Islam.

I did no such thing.


Ahem. We are to rest in the work of Christ for our salvation. We are not so rest from working for the Kingdom.

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Yep. To lovingly spread the gospel...not do drag people kicking and screaming to it or to condemn them for not hearing it. We were told to spread the GOSPEL...which means Good News. We are to preach salvation. Then, you can hand them a bible and leave the fire and brimstone to the prophets and apostles. Hard sell doesn't work in the secular world and I'd be doubtful that anyone came to accept Jesus into their hearts because someone warned them if they didn't, they'd burn in the lake of fire for eternity. Sure, some people become Christians because they want to feel they're "covered," but that's not the same thing as receiving Him and making daily efforts to decrease that He might increase as he dwells within you.

Phi 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Worthy of the gospel of Christ - walking in love. By your words and works demonstrating that you are participating in a collective effort to see God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.
Standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, striving together - where all of us align perfectly as the body of Christ to support and work for the benefit of the head. Not brow beating each other...cooperating in such a way that everyone who comes in contact with you cannot help but see the Holy Spirit shining out of you and want to be part of it.

Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.
Read a little further:
1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
1:27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1:28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.

Sufferings refers to the author of the epistle being in prison, not that suffering is a terrific thing...just something he cheerfully endures because the result is for the sake of others.

It doesn't say anything about what we are to preach except the good stuff: Christ in you, the hope of glory. And before you get all worked up about it, "Admonish" is simply saying we are to point out to those unsaved that their ways are incorrect and the verse goes on to say we offer wisdom.

Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
He's talking about shedding your own blood as Jesus shed his on the cross...being willing to make a sacrifice that great in His name. And, I don't believe that is meant to be taken literally...it is an illustration of a degree of commitment. If you were saying we should shed the blood of those who do not hear and follow...well, I'm just praying you weren't saying that.

Are you done with your impersonation of the Holy Spirit?
Absolutely not! And, it's not an impersonation. The Holy Spirit dwells within me and I pray it increases every single day. Why would anyone chastize another for being an expression of that?

This is the precious part... In your arrogance you judge me, then call me arrogant.
I am no more guilty of this that yourself. Take a fresh look at your words...and you can add sarcasm, insult, and name-calling to your list when you take a good look at how you deal with others in this forum.

As to arrogance.... I don't presume I'm the only one with the right answer. I join with Methodist, Baptist, Bible Church, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Ev. Free, Ev. Covenant, etc., etc., etc. and recognize the truth of the Gospel. You'd have me think there is either no truth to recognize, or it is beyond us to have confidence in knowing the truth. Scripture teaches otherwise...
Not even other Christians agree with one another...take us as a case in point. Your statements in this thread, however, are written in an absolute and declarative manner that suggests your perception of truth is somehow less flawed (if flawed at all) than mine or anyone else who sees it differently.

Of course there is a truth to recognize...but it is a lifetime's walk. And, it is an ongoing process. It's not, "Oh, I get it all," and then forcing down the throats of others. How much disagreement do you see at T-Web? And, how much genuine effort to align ourselves and join in one accord to form the body of Christ? That means pooling our knowledge, in my opinion. Knowing the truth of salvation is easy. That is the truth referred to in the bible. That is the new covenant: eternal life in Heaven with God in exchange for belief and works in line with God's will. The rest of the bible is, has been, and shall continue to be, mysterious, difficult to understand in its entirety, and something no two people will agree on word for word. That's why we should take in each others' ideas and make it our life's work to understand what we can. Our truth is salvation, what we are told to preach is salvation, and what we are to do as saved souls is to walk in salvation. Period.

2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
With gentleness. We teach with gentleness and God grants them the repentance, not you. Granting them the repentance could easily mean He grants them the will to repent...certainly he does not grant repentance until someone does repent...how do you get to that moment? Faith is a gift from God.

...or more to the point, you appear to suggest that we become like those Paul criticizes...
2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Absolutely not. The word "learning" here refers to the gentle teaching referred to in the previous quote (that's not my interpretation...I looked it up). Hence, it is saying some will hear and not follow. Of course I'm not suggesting that. Mostly, I'm just saying we are to preach the good news, with gentleness and love, correcting the ways of the lost GENTLY. We came to know the consequences we believe in because Jesus told those He was preparing to start the church. The apostles speak of them to those who have already started local churches and need to be built up and encouraged in their faith. I can't come up with a scripture off hand that says we are to discuss that in the process of spreading the gospel. Bring them into the fold and let them experience it for themselves.

Yes, I've also said above that there may be other options for other sheep about which we know nothing. I also said that my personal belief is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I also said that our job as Christians is to love one another as ourselves...regardless of who hears and who does not. That's between them and God. Would you cut off your hand if it did something that disagreed with your brain? Those people are part of humanity...treat them the way you would want to be treated. More importantly, you and I belong to the body of Christ...we are members of the same body. I am not trying to cut off your hand...I am striving to find a place of agreement. Not that you have to agree completely with me, nor I with you...a place where we are united in Christ...a place we can join in giving Glory to God.

You must have the gift of judging others...
Just plain insulting and childish.

I suggest you learn the Biblical meaning of walking in Christ.
Not a judgement? What would you call that?

I don't worship a wrathful tyrant. I worship the One who is rightfully wrathful, in loving holyness. You appear to worship some God who is not mentioned in the Bible.
Yes, God is wrathful...we are not to be. Oh, and I don't recognize your God either. We must be reading different bibles.

Sorry. I got a little heated there at the end. One can only stand so much hostility before losing some of their grace. That's a sin I shall repent for when I pray in about 5 minutes. What about you.

Blessings and peace,

JardinPrayer

[Jacob]

Today @ 07:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115141#post115141)
JardinPrayer:
One can only stand so much hostility before losing some of their grace.


Sugar coated hostility is still hostility, and you've dished out a good helping.

But to the point: Re-read the thread. The topic is Islam being proved false by the Q'ran. You suggested that being "tolerant" is relevant to this point. I disagree. While I must be kind, I will not be "tolerant" of heresy and lies on an internet discussion board. THE POINT HERE IS TO DEBATE, not to just grin at what we believe is false.

Either your call for tolerance suggests that we quit noting where the Q'ran contradicts Islam, which is all I was doing, or it suggests something else. What exactly were you suggesting, I'd like to know?

I displayed no lack of tolerance toward Muslims practicing their faith. I also noted their right to practice their religion. I have not been unkind toward any Muslims I know.

I admit to being intolerant to your vague call to "tolerance." How have I been intolerant regarding Muslims or Islam?

If you care to reply to my two questions in bold, I'll reply. Otherwise, I will not continue this meaningless debate about tolerance.

Jacob

[Epoetker]

My only addition to this discussion would be to note these:

1. Jesus says the only way to the Father is through him. His work, Himself, His deal.

2. While I do believe that Christianity is the best gateway for this process, mainly because it goes straight to the Source, the way he deals with people whom we have not been able to reach is His business.

3. However, this is no excuse for laxity in witnessing! Systems far removed from an understanding of Him are going to warp their adherents badly in the wrong direction, often setting them on the quite deadly path of religiosity and morality as substitute for Christ!

4. Once truth is known, followed up, and pressing in upon your head to acknowledge its existence, there is no salvation for those who choose to reject it, or worse, deny the existence of truth altogether. Both states are dangerous for those hoping to keep themselves mentally and spiritually alive, let alone ensuring the eternal connection of the soul to its Maker.

5. Hell creeps onto earth in this form wherever it can. The less Truth-capitalized and non-capitalized-in action to prevent it from taking root, the worse it gets. Many can and have come out of extremely hellish situations alone, but it is the duty of those in Love to bring as much of it as possible to the places drowned in misery brought on by ignorance.

6. Christianity is a prism that focuses the light of Christ onto our previous attempts to reach Him. While this process may reveal many revelations and avenues to pursue down one's own walk with Christ, it remains irrevocably self-sufficient for the one of humble heart and sound mind. All experience("experience" can well be defined as "knowledge gained through wrong decisions") tends to enrich one's life and mind, but only one Person ensures the salvation of human beings.

7. Thus, while Jesus's individual deals with those you believe unsaved may provide some comfort in times of doubt, it is not an excuse for laziness or patronization of ignorance. You have no knowledge of the divine status of the unsaved, so no possible "fair" conclusion should influence your actions toward them. Preach Christ, speak as truly as you know how of the hope that is in you, and God will deal with the saved and unsaved as He sees fit.

[Jacob]

Epoetker,

Good post. Thanks for the insights.

Jacob

[Epoetker]

Your welcome. I should also note that I see very little problems with sites like, say, these:

www.littlegreenfootballs.com

Check the weblog for continuous updates. The news is rather nasty sometimes.

[Pneuma]

Alright alright alright alright.

So long as we're arguging about Chrisitianity being "true" or "false", a topic that will bounce back and forth endlessly, I'll put it all to a stop right now.

First off, a religion based on an ideology can't be "true" or "false" to begin with. In every way, it's nothing more than a collection of complementary opinions. It's when we begin stirring literal mythology in the pot that things get fuzzy. NewsFlash: Jonah and the Whale never happened, folks. It's a story with a moral not unlike The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

I have a feeling that will not settle the argument. So, is Christianity "True", or is it "False"?

Here's your answer, a one word question:

Dinosaurs?

[FirstSunday33ad]

NewsFlash: Jonah and the Whale never happened, folks.

Yes it did, except it was Jonah and the Great Fish - big difference.

So, is Christianity "True", or is it "False"?

Here's your answer, a one word question:

Dinosaurs?

Here's your three word answer: What about them?

[notquiteEinstin]

Mick, what's your religion, if any?

[BBrad]

The debate seems to be going no where. First we have to establish if there is such a thing as truth and if so is there absolute truth?

Postmodernists claim that there is no such thing as truth. They believe that anyone who says that their particular view is right and every one elses view is wrong is arrogant. But there is only one problem with saying such things, the postmodernist is saying that they are right about this and anyone disagrees with them is wrong. So they are guilty of what they condemn.

If reason (logic) is to be trusted (and we all believe it is trustworthy, that is why we use it to try and convince others of our position, whether it be in a university classroom or in theological debate), and sound reasoning can be trusted, then we have to conclude there is such a thing as truth. The man or women who really believes reason cannot be trusted cannot trust their own reasoning abilities, they call this insanity.

For those whose logic is still so poor that they cannot accept the above and yet still argue (because they believe they are right) that there is no such thing as right and wrong or truth and falsehood I suggest you read a great little book called "Time for Truth" by Os Guinness
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801064031/qid=1071795733/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3397612-4244737?v=glance&s=books

For those who are interested in the evidence for and against Christianity I suggest "Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship reinvents the historical Jesus" by Wilklin and Moreland
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310211395/qid=1071795697/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3397612-4244737?v=glance&s=books

And for those who are interested in Islam
"Light in the Shadow of Jihad" by Ravi Zacharias
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1576739899/qid=1071795944/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3397612-4244737?v=glance&s=books
I think this is the most sensitive book on the issue. Ravi, an Indian, was born and bread in India and left India when he was about 20 years of age. He lived near a large Muslim community and he had some Muslim friends. The book was written after September 11. It is, however, only an introductory book to the subject but it will make you think.

If you want a more indepth look at Islam from a Christian perspective I highly recommend
"Christians, Muslims, and Islamic Rage: What Is Going on and Why It Happened" by Christopher Catherwood
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310251389/qid=1071796295/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-3397612-4244737?v=glance&s=books
This book is also sensitively written. Some authors can't write about Islam without making out that all Muslims are terrorists. I have a very good Sunni (Muslim) Iraqi friend so I know that many Muslims do not sympathize with Islamic terrorists. Other writers, however, ignore some the verses and traditions on which Bin Ladin and other extremists base their activities. Catherwood avoids both extremes and does not run from the tough questions.

But for those who are convinced that Islam is indeed a way, or just as relevent as any other religion I have a question.

Here are some Islamic hoaxes
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/index.html
Why are they so widely spread throughout the Islamic world and why are so many people so quick to believe what Muslims say about Islam when clearly many Muslims have no trouble lying to other Muslims ?(Should we expect people who believe lies to tell us nothing but the truth? How can anyone tell you the truth about a subject if they repeat the lies which they believe to be true?) (For verification about the hoaxes see the site policy http://www.answering-islam.org/policy.html )

Or perhaps these people cannot be trusted at all because they are non-Muslims pointing out Islamic hoaxes (though some of them are not). Perhaps Muslims can be believed in regards to their statements about Islam?

Here are some Muslims who are pointing out some problems with Islam.

The Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society
http://secularislam.org/

Secular Islam.NET
http://www.secularislam.net/

And if you choose not to believe these people you can always look up the verses in the Quran and Hadith which they are constantly reffering to.

The Quran and Hadith have been made available on-line by the Muslim Students Association of the University of Southern California.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/


I am sorry if I offended anyone here with some of the things I have written. I know it is not popular to say that there is only one way but I happen to believe that if you have unjustly offended someone (whether that be a human being or God) the only way to make things right is to admit you were wrong (confession) and then set about doing what is right (repentance). It should be noted that though confession and repentence is the only way it can be done in different ways (eg. written, spoken etc.).

I hope these words are of some help on this difficult and emotionally charged issue.

[Dr T]

Wow, talk about going off topic.

This thread is the in the Islam forum.

The original post proved that by the defintion in the Koran, Isalm is false.

This was done based on the contents of the Koran, and translations of the Koran.

You can not attack the arguments on the basis of the religion of the poster, unless that was used in the original argument. It was not, so most of the posts on this thread are off topic. The call for a Christianity is false thread is fine, provided you put in the right forum / thread (i.e. not the Islam forum) and you present a case for it.

I would suggest if you wish to challenge the 'Islam is false' you do so on the basis for the evidence provided and the logic used.

The relevance of the Koran for Muslims is far greater than the Bible for Christians. Mohammed openly admitted that he did no miracles, and had no proofs of his divine message, instead the fact that the Koran was without error was the sole proof that his message was from God.

The fact that it is riddled with contraditions, and factual errors, shows that it is not from God, or at least not from any kind of God a Christian would understand, nor would it be the all powerful God descriped in the Koran.

[Jude3b]

Dear Mickiel: Islam is false because its book is wrong. The Koran states things that are not true. Example- In the Koran, Jesus is regarded as only a prophet. That is wrong, because Jesus is God!
Muhammad had written in the Koran, the great lie... that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. That is not correct, if your will check the Holy Bible, you will see that Isaac was the sacrifice.
The Muslim multitudes look to their religion and Muhammad (whose body is still lying in Medina) and with all their hearts look towards Mecca for their salvation. But, the Bible, God's infallible and inspired Word, tells us that Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) You will not get to heaven by looking to Mecca! Therefore it is a false religion.

Proof of being a Christian- I know that I am a Christian because Jesus Christ died for me, I have received Him as my personal Lord and Savior and He lives in me.

Sincerely, Jude 3b

[geneticperfecti]

Unfortunately there are many weaknesses with the situations you pointed out. I'm going to show you a few...I'm also going to ignore a few, because it would mean more research than I'm willing to do for a post on the internet.

This
Sura 4:79
Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah;
but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thyself.
Sura 38:41
Commemorate Our Servant Job, behold he cried out to his Lord:
"Satan has afflicted me with distress and suffering!"

(If evil comes from us then why commemorate Job for saying it came from Satan?)

Heres the problem. According to the first sura, G*d said that evil is of our own creation. According to the second sura, *Job* said Satan put evil on him. Is Job=G*d? No? Then this doesnt hold.


Sura 11:42-43
So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains,
and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest):
"O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!"
The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water."
Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah,
any but those on whom He hath mercy!" And the waves came between them,
and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.
(This is an impossible scenario. If the waves were “towering like mountains” and the Ark was already afloat, where was Noah’s son standing and how could he converse with his father and be heard?)

This is just asnine. Were you expecting a history of the world in 2 lines? There could easily have been a time gap between the conversation and the son being wiped out. I'm sure they moved a bit too, yet I see no mention of that. Perhaps one of them exhaled? Nope, no mention. Hence Noah was
capable of living without oxygen? Its ridiculous to expect every single second of life to be mentioned. Look for highlights my friend. We dont hear all that much of Christ's great grand uncle twice removed in the Bible, but I'm sure he had one.

I think that should be sufficient to prove that there is a problem with your reasonings.