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Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 08:14 AM
Gideon says: Firstly, this article from Heathen Dawn's sadly now abandoned (http://eclecticsatyr.hostultra.com/thatday.htm) website:

In Defence of Christian Wicca
http://eclecticsatyr.hostultra.com/cwdefend.htm
Words fail to describe the scorn heaped upon the practitioners of Christian Wicca or Catholic Craft, not only on part of the Christians, who are bound by their religion to be suspicious (at best) of other religions, but also on part of the Wiccans, who are supposed to be tolerant and accepting. It has been said time and again on pagan and as well as Christian forums, that a Christian Wiccan is neither a good Christian nor a good Wiccan.

Now, I do not practice Christian Wicca or Catholic Craft, but I have deep respect for those who do, and I am absolutely shocked to see them denigrated on both sides. It is my conviction that Christian Wicca is a legitimate tradition of the Wiccan religion, on the one hand, and that its practitioners often display a more Christ-like character than so many Christians, on the other. Between Wicca and the Pharisaical religion of Protestant Christianity a great gulf is fixed, but Catholic Christianity and Wicca share many similarities.
Catholic Magic of Body and Blood

First I want to express two comments on the Eucharist, both on its kinship to paganism rather than Jewish (Old Testament) roots: it is a ritual involving magic, and it is contrary to Old Testament law.

The Catholic priest performs magic: he holds the bread and wine and, upon uttering incantations, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of the deity. That transformation is magic of the kind that any witch would take pride in. And it is in contrast to the Old Testament model of miracles, for there the miracles were one-time occasions, whereas the transformation of bread and wine into flesh and blood happens every week. The idea that magic could be performed frequently is a pagan one.

Another point is that the Old Testament forbids the eating of human flesh and the drinking of all blood. The implications of this are so clear that Protestants have militated against the idea that the bread and wine turn into literal flesh and blood—did not Jesus himself say not one jot or tittle of the law would ever be annulled? (they do eat pork, though) But Catholics insist on the pagan ritual of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of their human-form deity. A Wiccan can feel much more at home in the Catholic Eucharist than a Protestant would.
Incense and Candles

The churches of Catholicism are also different from what we find in the Protestant world. At the centre of the Protestant church is the pulpit, a stand for reading from the Bible; the centre of the Catholic church is the altar, where the ritual sacrifice of the God is reënacted every week. The spirit of the Catholic churches is different too: there the censers have incense burning, and candles are lighted—no strange features for a Wiccan! Add to this the fact that Catholic churches are often situated where pagan temples once stood, and you have a real energetic feast.
Mary the Goddess

Whereas Protestants are stuck with an all-male Godhead, all of whose three persons they call “He”, the Catholic Church has listened to its members’ plea for a female divinity and christened Mary, the mother of Jesus, as Co-Redemptrix, as sinless, as Queen of Heaven. The doctrine of Immaculate Conception, whereby Mary was born without sin, effectively makes her a Goddess, for only deities are without sin. The title “Queen of Heaven” was originally given to a pagan Goddess, Ashtoreth, as recorded in the Old Testament, and is what Wiccans call their Triple Goddess.
The Christ-Like Way

The virtues of being like Jesus, turning the other cheek and dining with the lowly, are ever praised in Christian circles. But whereas Christian love is often “tough love”, thumping one’s Bible in the non-Christians’ ears and giving them the profound spiritual message of “believe or burn”, Christian Wiccans can display true love, charity that is not given with an invitation for conversion. If such is done, and the doer says “I worship Jesus”, then the hearer receives an invitation to Christianity far more compelling than a million Chick tracts.

I am not saying, as many irenic proponents would say, that Jesus preached the Wiccan Rede; in fact he talked much about hell and the necessity of obedience to God. But he reserved his harsh words to the religious leaders, to the scripture-thumping Pharisees so similar to their successors the modern-day Protestants. With the common man he dined, showing him the better way by example, by deed and not by word. The Christian Wiccan knows that actions speak louder than words and heals people instead of drumming the Bible into their ears.
Summary

I have shown the similarity of Catholic Christianity to Wicca, and the difference between the way of Jesus and the way of modern born-again Protestants. Having shown those points, it should be clear that the gulf between Wicca and Christianity is not as impassable as many would hold, and that the practitioners of Christian Wicca and Catholic Craft should be more respected by Christians and Wiccans alike. In an ideal world…

He has changed his mind in recent times, here is his 'retractiones'

I now object to the term “Christian Wicca” because I hold that Wicca is a very specific religion—but that’s the same reason I object to the term “Eclectic Wicca” too. I’d call them Christopagans and be done with it. But, I still deeply admire those people, and I think they’re the bravest souls in the entire neopagan scene.

Wicca and Christianity are quite different. Christianity was a mystery religion only in its very first centuries, but now it’s a revealed religion, while Wicca, real Wicca, is a mystery religion. See Skytoucher’s article for more about the difference. There are lots of things in the New Testament that can inspire us, but the basic differences should be acknowledged.

Secondly, HD also provides a link to http://www.christianwicca.org/index.html a website promoting it, and providing some essays.

And from there one can go to: http://p199.ezboard.com/bchristianwicca a discussion board.

While the reactions of most Christians can be pre-determined, and therefore needs little comment here, I was wondering what the resident Wiccans/Pagans think of this venture. Is this a matter of religious eclecticism they would liike to see come to pass, or is this mixing oil and water?

Richbee
April 21st 2005, 08:58 AM
Gideon says: Firstly, this article from Heathen Dawn's sadly now......

.....While the reactions of most Christians can be pre-determined, and therefore needs little comment here, I was wondering what the resident Wiccans/Pagans think of this venture. Is this a matter of religious eclecticism they would liike to see come to pass, or is this mixing oil and water?

Wiccans are deceived from the get go, so without any standard for truth, there are countless more deceptions. (The article you posted misrepresented God's nature, as both Males and Females are created in God's likeness.)

Without a doubt, you could post an endless list of lies and twisted beliefs related to wiccan. Some have even asserted that Jesus used "magick", and this is how they explain miracles.

Here are a few solid facts, and I rejoice in the generous joy of “Dare 2 Share”, and they have granted permission for me to post this full article, but I post in part:

Consider:

My Wiccan Friend (101) - By Greg Stier

Most witches (often called Wiccans) are part of the contemporary neo-pagan movement which is rooted in the ancient god and goddess worship of several pre-Christian cults and religions (Greek, Celtic, [Norse] Egyptian, Roman and Sumerian). While there is much diversity of beliefs among witches (because it, like the New Age movement, is not one centrally organized religion with a set creed or belief system) there are several common beliefs widely held among witches.

Some common beliefs among witches:

1. Rejection of absolute truth.

Witches believe that experience and mysticism are the final authority not some book or creed. Each person must find and define their own reality and belief system.

Biblical View:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus...I give you this charge: Preach the Word, be prepared in season and out of season....For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy 3:16-4:4

2. Tolerance

Witches believe that acceptance of other belief systems and religions (as long as those religions and belief systems are tolerant of theirs) is a must. Diversity is a virtue, dogmatism a sin.

Biblical View:

There is right and wrong. "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil...." Isaiah 5:20

Some things should not be tolerated. "I will set before my eyes no vile thing. The deeds of faithless men I hate; they will not cling to me. Men of perverse heart shall be far from me; I will have nothing to do with evil." Psalm 101:3,4

Most witches believe that they can cause changes in people and circumstances through invoking spirits, forces or gods in the unseen world. This is usually done through some prescribed ritual or incantation.

Various questions to ask witches:

"How do you know that neo-paganism (witchcraft) is true?"

"What if you are wrong?"

"If there are such things as gods and goddesses why have they not revealed themselves physically like Jesus Christ has?"

Dare 2 Share Ministries - Click Here and Adopt a Wiccan (www.cbn.com/spirituallife/ChurchAndMinistry/Evangelism/My_Wiccan_Friend.asp)

technomage
April 21st 2005, 09:31 AM
While the reactions of most Christians can be pre-determined, and therefore needs little comment here, I was wondering what the resident Wiccans/Pagans think of this venture. Is this a matter of religious eclecticism they would liike to see come to pass, or is this mixing oil and water?

I would not condemn those who practice Christian Wicca, but I admit that I don't understand how such a thing can be. The Christian scriptures are explicitly opposed to witchcraft, and witchcraft is part of Wicca.

That being said, there are many things that I feel Wiccans have learned from Christianity--the "priesthood of the believers" being the first one right off the top of my head. And I feel that there are many things that Wicca can learn from Christianity--the social responsibility; the sense of community; and the willingness to take a stand for what is right, and the realization that truth and ethics are, indeed, absolute, not relative.

"Harm None" or "Love Thy Neighbor" ... what's the odds? :wink:

Justin

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 09:36 AM
Gideon says: I was particularly interested to see how the Goddess is brought in via the Wisdom imagery of the OT, and Mary [Theotokos or Magdalene] in Catholic practice. Would you say that this is something Christianity stands in need of learning from Wicca/Paganism, remembering that Judaism and some branches of Christianity take a determined stand against exalting the feminine in this way.

technomage
April 21st 2005, 09:44 AM
Gideon says: I was particularly interested to see how the Goddess is brought in via the Wisdom imagery of the OT, and Mary [Theotokos or Magdalene] in Catholic practice. Would you say that this is something Christianity stands in need of learning from Wicca/Paganism, remembering that Judaism and some branches of Christianity take a determined stand against exalting the feminine in this way.

Gideon, I'd be ... extremely leery of saying that Christianity "stands in need" of anything. First and foremost, Christianity is not of a piece, and what may be suitable for some Christians may be quite inappropriate for others. Secondly, as I no longer practice Christianity, I'd be very hesitant to express any "Christians should do thus and so...."

I'm not sure that including some sort of "Divine Feminine" would be at all workable for Christianity at all: even the Roman Catholics do not call Mary "Divine," though there is a great deal of respect for her. That being said, if an individual Christian feels that he will be better able to love God, and to love his neighbors, by having a greater recognition of the feminine, this can be done within the context of liturgy (as the Roman and Greek churches have done, by recognizing the Theotokos), or outside of that context (by something as simple as recognizing and trying to fill the needs of the women in the congregation).

Could Christianity adapt some of the practices and outlooks of Wicca? Well, theoretically yes ... the question then remains "Is it still Christianity, or is it something else?"

Justin

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 09:51 AM
Gideon says: Sorry, I didn't mean to be so definite as to assert that Christians do stand in need of such, just counter-voicing your thought that Wicca can learn from Christianity. Some would say that, though not called divine, the role of Mary does supply a feminine element said to be missing in comparison with other religions. Would you say there is anything Chrisitans can learn from Wicca. Perhaps, along with your own doubts about the veracity of Christianity, there were elements you felt were not addressed by it, but which are addressed in Wicca; not in the sense of cosmology, doctrines, etc, but emphases, as you have mentioned regarding social responsibility, etc.
I am wondering if CW is trying to have the best of both worlds, or will only be the worst of both, or just eventually become one or the other.

Cu Mhorrigan
April 21st 2005, 09:54 AM
Well I know I am about to sound like a pagan fundie, but Who cares? IMNSHO Christianity and Wiccan Cannot nor Should not Mix. The two REligions are Highly antithetical to one another. (More accurately Christianity Is antithetical to Wicca) Much of the beliefs and Dogma associated with christianity have made it very clear that if it is not derived from the Male Dominated Hierarchy then it is Evil (Meaning Not Christian).
Christians (Fundie Christians at any rate) make it clear that what ever is not in their little black book is not to be practiced at all.

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 10:00 AM
Cu Mhorrigan said: Christians (Fundie Christians at any rate) make it clear that what ever is not in their little black book is not to be practiced at all.

Gideon says: Cu, would you consider Luther a fundamentalist? He said something along the lines of (and it became Lutheran policy) What is not forbidden is allowed. thus he justified the use of images, etc in Churches. Obviously he was not referring to Wicca. However, just as there are those who say that the sodomy referred to in the Bible is not that which we have today in committed relationships, so the witchcraft of the OT is not necessarily that which is practiced today by committed Christians, anymore than the fact that Christians are involved in philosophy despite some bad press in the Bible.
If Wicca is not just a language game, but reflects an objective reality as Justin has written in other threads, then it is possible that that reality includes both Wicca and Christianity, in the same way that that reality includes Western medicine, and homeopathic medicine. Analagies i know, but hopefully serving the prupose of the argument.

Richbee
April 21st 2005, 10:04 AM
I would not condemn those who practice Christian Wicca, but I admit that I don't understand how such a thing can be. The Christian scriptures are explicitly opposed to witchcraft, and witchcraft is part of Wicca.

That being said, there are many things that I feel Wiccans have learned from Christianity--the "priesthood of the believers" being the first one right off the top of my head. And I feel that there are many things that Wicca can learn from Christianity--the social responsibility; the sense of community; and the willingness to take a stand for what is right, and the realization that truth and ethics are, indeed, absolute, not relative.

"Harm None" or "Love Thy Neighbor" ... what's the odds? :wink:

Justin


There is no "Christian wicca".

There might be heretics, promoting their Heresy du Jour".

Just as there are those who teach "Christ Consciousness" - New Age, Neognosticism, etc., Heaven's Gate.

These are false, illogical, irrational, and incoherant.

Cu Mhorrigan
April 21st 2005, 10:08 AM
I think My main issue is this, I left Chrsitianity four to Five years ago, and became a pagan about three years ago...I see no point in Using Christianity for anything within one's Personal growth in the craft. I guess My take is I left christianity for a reason and why would I now want to take it's beliefs and try to MacGuyver it to wiccan practice..(If I were I would not use mary as the goddess figure but rather the Holy Spirit to fit into the trinity concept (Mommy and Daddy Plus Babby makes three) but I digress into tangent land). Personally it is more grief than it is worth when you have to explain it to people. I have a hard enough time convincing christians I dont eat babies (They are too greasy and leave a nasty aftertaste) It's way too much work to convince them that I practice the craft and I still love jesus.

:nsm:

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 10:11 AM
Richbee said: There is no "Christian wicca".
There might be heretics, promoting their Heresy du Jour".
Just as there are those who teach "Christ Consciousness" - New Age, Neognosticism, etc., Heaven's Gate.
These are false, illogical, irrational, and incoherant.

Gideon says: Richbee, I did point out at the start that the general Christian response would be obvious, so I do hope that you won't keep repeating it, having made your point in one post already. Please do start a thread warning people of this new danger, but do not do it in my thread.
Though I do not favour this view, yet I like to find out about things, and convivial discussions can be hampered by such polemics.

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 10:15 AM
Cu Mhorrigan said: It's way too much work to convince them that I practice the craft and I still love jesus.

Gideon says: So you would not see any room or need for eclecticism in this area. Assuming for the sake of argument that Jesus was a historical figure who taught broadly what he did, yet he would be of no more significance to the Wiccan view than Karl Marx or Confucius. Would there be any room for a dialogue between the two?

technomage
April 21st 2005, 10:41 AM
Gideon says: Sorry, I didn't mean to be so definite as to assert that Christians do stand in need of such, just counter-voicing your thought that Wicca can learn from Christianity.

Ah. I misunderstood: thank you for clarifying.

Would you say there is anything Chrisitans can learn from Wicca.

Not with any great degree of comfort. Again, no longer being a member of the Christian community, I do not know where the needs are.

I am wondering if CW is trying to have the best of both worlds, or will only be the worst of both, or just eventually become one or the other.

Or, perhaps, become something totally new: their own path, informed by both Wicca and Christianity, but walking on their own.

:shrug: I do not know. It does make me nervous ... but I wish them well.

Justin

Cu Mhorrigan
April 21st 2005, 10:58 AM
Cu Mhorrigan said: It's way too much work to convince them that I practice the craft and I still love jesus.

Gideon says: So you would not see any room or need for eclecticism in this area. Assuming for the sake of argument that Jesus was a historical figure who taught broadly what he did, yet he would be of no more significance to the Wiccan view than Karl Marx or Confucius. Would there be any room for a dialogue between the two?
(Just a user tip, If you click quick reply on my posts, then check the box marked "Quote message in reply" then you will be able to quote me. Or if you click reply in my posts you can quote me and edit what part you quote from :wink:)

Im really the worst person to ask when it comes to Christian/ Pagan relations...(given the fact that I really dislike fundementalists...It's a whole long story that I have shared before.) IMNSHO Any dialogue between christians and pagans is possible, but not with the fundementalists (I am referring to conservative baptists, catholics, pentecostals, evangelicals etc.) as a group simply by virtue of their stance of anything Not liked by them is evil there for heretical and sinful. (Yes there are Nice fundies but I am speaking of Fundementalists as a group.) to even attempt to blend the two religions would be at best a jury rig trying to accomidate one at the expense of the other. Dialogue on the other hand would take an extreme amount of work with the fundementalist needing to deal with the issues in their history that they are unwilling to admit. They still cannot bring themselves to admit that their support of slavery and trhe slaughter of indigenous peoples was even attempted by their ancestors.

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 11:06 AM
Gideon says: Thank you both for your replies. And the advice; I can be a bit of a style merchant at times.

Cu Mhorrigan
April 21st 2005, 11:08 AM
YW Gideon glad I could help if I did.

Gideon Brook
April 21st 2005, 11:17 AM
YW Gideon glad I could help if I did.

I was not looking for closure on this, or anything, just what the view of Wiccans is on the matter. I have been Christian long enough that I sometimes forget what I used to think of Christians before I was one, and how easily I combined things from different views to my liking. Plus, one can tend to think that only Christians would seek the purity of their view, and everyone else is just mixing it up as they like. I am interested in the idea of how much common ground can be found between different views, and where one must most certainly draw a line in the sand.