Sanely discussing the "burning times"?

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Yes this is a faavorite topic of people like myself, and an article posted by Dur (and Another Person who shall remain nameless) Did get me thinking somewhat. (No this is not an admission of being wrong.)
However, I read the article in question before and I think there needs to be some level of clarification.
When I discuss the "Burning times" period of christo-pagan history, I dont just start with Salem and the period in europe discussed by gardner and others.
Where I start with is the persecution of the hellenes by Charlemagne and other emperors in the holy roman empire.
My reasoning behind it is simple, this is where the fundie attitude of subjugation and oppression of other religions got started. I also try not to use the term "Burning Times" because quite frankly that is Not entirely accurate.
While some would say that this is Shoddy Historical work, allow me to poitn out I am not a Historian by the strictest definition of the word. I am just some Schmuck that had a bible school education and did alot of reading and learning on the internet and in some books. What I do try to do however is try to fit history in some kind of context.
The Burning Times did not only affect witches/Pagan but also jews, muslims, and even Moderate christians. This is kind of where alot of My smistakes do come in. There are SO many groups that suffered under the banner of the cross you really cannot wrap your head around the enormity of what the hell really happened. We are not talking about Isolated incidents here but really a systematic campaign by the fanatical elements of the christian church which are still in place Today as it was during the time of Charlemagne, the only difference now is that those fanatics have been restrained on some level.
Anyway I think I have ranted enough. Does anyone else have any Sane and reasonable thoughts to add?

[Tween]

Hope its not to late to reply, this is one of my favs too, and like you do not consider myself an historian, but have also read, thought, explored etc.this topic. My thoughts are: We have lost some of the greatest records of science philosophy, astronomy mathematics etc during these "Burning times" as you call them or not. Anything that threatened the Church's absurd, in my opinion, literalist interpretation of scripture was destroyed, burnt, pillaged, raped and so on (here I rant too). We have been taught that our ancestors were primitive with no understanding of science, the universe etc, however the latest researchers Hancock, Crichton-Miller, and many others are now demonstrating that these ancients had an understanding of and reverence for all creation, long before Adam was a thought.

Yes this is a faavorite topic of people like myself, and an article posted by Dur (and Another Person who shall remain nameless) Did get me thinking somewhat. (No this is not an admission of being wrong.)
However, I read the article in question before and I think there needs to be some level of clarification.
When I discuss the "Burning times" period of christo-pagan history, I dont just start with Salem and the period in europe discussed by gardner and others.
Where I start with is the persecution of the hellenes by Charlemagne and other emperors in the holy roman empire.
My reasoning behind it is simple, this is where the fundie attitude of subjugation and oppression of other religions got started. I also try not to use the term "Burning Times" because quite frankly that is Not entirely accurate.
While some would say that this is Shoddy Historical work, allow me to poitn out I am not a Historian by the strictest definition of the word. I am just some Schmuck that had a bible school education and did alot of reading and learning on the internet and in some books. What I do try to do however is try to fit history in some kind of context.
The Burning Times did not only affect witches/Pagan but also jews, muslims, and even Moderate christians. This is kind of where alot of My smistakes do come in. There are SO many groups that suffered under the banner of the cross you really cannot wrap your head around the enormity of what the hell really happened. We are not talking about Isolated incidents here but really a systematic campaign by the fanatical elements of the christian church which are still in place Today as it was during the time of Charlemagne, the only difference now is that those fanatics have been restrained on some level.
Anyway I think I have ranted enough. Does anyone else have any Sane and reasonable thoughts to add?

[jason]

Does anyone else have any Sane and reasonable thoughts to add?
I think :ahem: would best sum up my response.

Jason

[Zeluvia]

I think what you have to remember when you discuss any of this, is the mindset of the populace.

When bad things happened, it was because the God or Gods were angry, and probably mad at "someone" for "something". Ferrerting out who this was or why the Gods were mad and killing them, or punishing them, was the only solution. Take for example the Black Plague and some of the extremely superstitious reactions to it, like the Flagellates, who publicly whipped themselves to try to gain favor with God to end the Plague.

Now along with this mob hysteria and looking for "victims" to blame for disasters, was the "elite" who saw opportunity in the mob hysteria to promote agendas, or in some cases just grab property, and use the superstitions of the mob for power plays.

I certainly don't think you can say this is only a "Christian issue" although it was used quite a bit by them. I think you can find this reaction in alot of pre-christian and other religions before we started to understand the causes of natural disasters.

Just take a look at some of the Tsunami threads, people still tend to say "God" did it to "punish" so and so for such and such.

And while it is true that some of the "ancients" were quite civilized and technologically advanced, the mass of the populace was still pretty superstitious.

[Tween]

I think what you have to remember when you discuss any of this, is the mindset of the populace....


And while it is true that some of the "ancients" were quite civilized and technologically advanced, the mass of the populace was still pretty superstitious.


Zeluvia, I think you chould really have a look at the following websites: www.crichtonmiller.com/
www.crystalinks.com/crichtonmiller.html

Here we go back to the times before the "ancients". Hope you do have a look, let me know what you think, pls

[Cu Mhorrigan]

So let me ask this then, what patterns could be noted throughout the periods of "Burning Times" in earth's history can be detected here and Now in 21rst century america? Is ther any set pattern that we could look at and safely say "Gee this looks like so and so group is getting ready to start this nonsense again".

Can we tell if we are headed to another period of persecution? or does it just spring up out of nowhere?

[NeilUnreal]

I think one of the most important aspects of studying periods of atrocity and opression is to try to recognize what's common to all of them. Not to deflect blame from any one case, by playing tit-for-tat, but to recognize that it's something that any of us is capable of and to find ways to prevent it.

Let's face it, the thread of xenophobia runs deep in us. Chemical equivalents of it probably go back to before we were even prokaryotes. We at least have the mental and spiritual capacity to begin recognizing it and dealing with it.

-Neil

[Richbee]

In triuth, the first and most important question that must be answered first, is what was a "witch", or what was an average "witch"?

Did anyone really ever know?

Next, how did this tradegy happen? Or:

Who Burned the Witches?

BY SANDRA MIESEL

The stench of their burning is with us yet. The stakes and gibbets where witches perished by the tens of thousands during early modern times still stand in popular imagination. For historians, the so-called great European witch-hunt has been a much-vexed issue, one easily contorted to suit the prejudices of every age.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0056.html

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Richbee actually being CIVIL? wow dude the Goddess must be working on you.

Okay folks so this brings me to this question.
Does the fact that the Fanatics responsible for the traditional time period for the burning times were targeting other christians make the atrocities any LESS horrendous?
If certain individuals who are prone to religious hate crimes are willing to prey on members of their own religion, doesnt that speak volumes as to what they would do to people OUTSIDE their faith?

Take fanatical Muslims for example, they not only target us "Evil Imperialist Amricans" but also their own people who they claim they are trying to liberate.
Not to go into My usual alarmist rants, but what would you think of someone willing to kill his own to get to you?

[jason]

Does the fact that the Fanatics responsible for the traditional time period for the burning times were targeting other christians make the atrocities any LESS horrendous?
No but it puts the lie to the whole "burning times" nonsense.

If certain individuals who are prone to religious hate crimes are willing to prey on members of their own religion, doesnt that speak volumes as to what they would do to people OUTSIDE their faith?
No not really.

Jason

[Cu Mhorrigan]

No but it puts the lie to the whole "burning times" nonsense. actually it doesnt, My High Priestess went to salem a couple of times, and She kind of helped me to understand it a little better. Alot of the people were innocent victims and many of their souls still linger on.
The fact that the Salem Trials happened, and the reasoning behind it was so foul and based on such a desire for control and manipulation it really messed up Christianity's image for quite some time.
I think what some people neglect to observe, is that there are alot of situations where, the reputation and the image of the church was tarnished severely by the actions it has taken.
Think for a minute, Do we think of China as a Highly educated, and civilised or (For those of us OLD enough to remember or who have not watched PBS or similarly oriented programing) does the Images of Tianemen square still fill our minds? or the persecution of Falung Dafa?
What ever China may achieve on it's own It's blood thirsty reputation will preceed much of the image about that nation.
When we discuss Islam do we mention the acts of compassion and charity performed by Millions of Muslims? or do we still tink of the Fanatical Mobs and Homicide bombers?
If you tell the truth the images still haunt you no matter how hard you try to forget. That is the same image the church has. Whether the victims of the burning times were actual pagans, or christians, the effect is still the same.
People died under the banner of a man who taught peace and compassion for others.

(See I can be sane if people let me.)

[jason]

Whether the victims of the burning times were actual pagans, or christians, the effect is still the same.
Yes, open to distortion by those with an agenda :wink:

People died under the banner of a man who taught peace and compassion for others.
Yes people behaving at odds with and in defiance of what he taught.

That is the problem, Christians do evils like this exactly when they abandon the teachings of Christ to love your neighbour as yourself.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the Church does evil everytime is does the wrong thing and deviates from the Truth.

Jason

[Cu Mhorrigan]

What makes it worse is when people try to justify and act like Nothing is wrong.
I guess you are using the "Well they werent real christians" defense to kind of make yourself feel just a little better.
At any rate, Since you admit that the church has committed these crimes, then explain why you would follow a religion that would exploit the teachings of it's founder just to persue it's own goals? (Meaning the teachings were inconvinient for a pastor's building project or his affair with the secretary.)
You talk about other people having an agenda when bringing up the burning times, what agenda do you have in working so hard to deny them?
Why are you trying so hard to defend what your pastors and forefathers did and even go so far as to pretend it never happned?

[jason]

What makes it worse is when people try to justify and act like Nothing is wrong.
I didn't say the actions where not wrong, just that they do not reflect the teachings of Christ. Big surprise Christians go off the rails and do evil when they cease to follow Christ.

I guess you are using the "Well they werent real christians" defense to kind of make yourself feel just a little better.
No I have no doubt the people who did such things where genuine bonafide saved Christians. It was also genuine bona fide saved Christians who put an end to this as well. But you never tell that side of the story.

At any rate, Since you admit that the church has committed these crimes, then explain why you would follow a religion that would exploit the teachings of it's founder just to persue it's own goals?
Because all human beings are fallen and corrupt, Christianity admits as much and in that regard is closest to reality.

You talk about other people having an agenda when bringing up the burning times, what agenda do you have in working so hard to deny them?
Only the Truth. Reality is that the "burning times" are so much nonsense. Why Pagans seek to be taken so unseriously by harping on about such tripe puzzles me.

Why are you trying so hard to defend what your pastors and forefathers did and even go so far as to pretend it never happned?
When did I pretend anything didn't happen ? Just because I know that the Church in Europe never burnt witches like you are implying they did, doesn't mean I am "pretending" anything. I am quite familiar with the Salem witch trials and the 37 who died there. They hype you are carrying on with in regards to this event doesn't change it into something it is not.

Jason

[Cu Mhorrigan]

I didn't say the actions where not wrong, just that they do not reflect the teachings of Christ. Big surprise Christians go off the rails and do evil when they cease to follow Christ. but according to most christians, Christians NEVEr sin, their Poo never stinks and they made the world a better place just by giving their little platitudes.


No I have no doubt the people who did such things where genuine bonafide saved Christians. It was also genuine bona fide saved Christians who put an end to this as well. But you never tell that side of the story. because the "Bonafide Christians" are still trying to carry on the same behaviour.


Because all human beings are fallen and corrupt, Christianity admits as much and in that regard is closest to reality. Oh yes they go around telling everyone they are evil, stupid, worthless and god hates them and wants them to suffer for ever and ever through out all eternity, but he loves them and if they grovel and whine and plead and grovel some more, and plead some more, MAYBE he will forgive them.
And that christians are the only people who are perfect because they have a special friend living inside them called the holy spirit who helps them not make mistakes and makes their poo smell like lilacs.
(Yes this is all sarcastic.)
the fact of the matter is that they dont have the whole reality. if you constantly tell people they are evil, and if you constantly give grief and emotional black mail to a group, then yes they are going to re enact the behaviour you tell them. Many of the wanna be satanists are re-enacting the horror stories the church has told them for years about witch craft. (thank the gods for the internet) why? because the church always taught that if you rejected the church then you are evil.

Only the Truth. Reality is that the "burning times" are so much nonsense. Why Pagans seek to be taken so unseriously by harping on about such tripe puzzles me. because, Jason, The burning times did happen, from the time of constantine until now, and they still occur. (Albeit in small ways in some places.) part of the reason the burning times is brought up is the same reason Jews bring up the holocaust. Are you going to tell them that they jews should not harp of it just because you think it is a waste of time?


When did I pretend anything didn't happen ? Just because I know that the Church in Europe never burnt witches like you are implying they did, doesn't mean I am "pretending" anything. I am quite familiar with the Salem witch trials and the 37 who died there. They hype you are carrying on with in regards to this event doesn't change it into something it is not. I go back to the holocaust, Let's say it wasnt Six MIllion Jews but rather 10 or 100 thousand, does it make the holocaust any less wrong? does it make hitler any less of a monster? So what if only thousands instead of Millions burned to death on the stakes, does it change the fact that the church not only condoned it, but actively participated in these activities?
Does it change the fact that Innocent men women and children were killed regaurdless if they were witches or not?
Part of the reason the burning times are brought up is because we still see the seeds of it here and there, just like Jews see seeds of the holocaust here and there.
the last thing anyone wants to do is have that kind of atrocity happen ever again.
If you look at the totality of the christian history, you will find that for every persecuted christian group, there are just as many pagans, atheists, jews, and others being persecuted BY christians. It's not always obvious, and many times it's subtle, but it is still there.
If we forget what has gone on before we inevitably create the chain of events to bring back those events in our life time.

[jason]

but according to most christians,
Who are these mysterious MostChristiansTM ?

Take a poll here on the topic and I doubt you will find anyone (perhaps 1 or 2) who would side with that statement. So check your facts please.

because the "Bonafide Christians" are still trying to carry on the same behaviour.
:ahem:

Oh yes they go around telling everyone they are evil, stupid, worthless and god hates them and wants them to suffer for ever and ever through out all eternity, but he loves them and if they grovel and whine and plead and grovel some more, and plead some more, MAYBE he will forgive them.
You really are an idiot at times.

(Yes this is all sarcastic.)
No doubt it reflects what you think.

because, Jason, The burning times did happen, from the time of constantine until now, and they still occur.
You have quite the persecution complex going there. Why don't you get a big cross and nail yourself too it so you can play the martyr some more.

part of the reason the burning times is brought up is the same reason Jews bring up the holocaust. Are you going to tell them that they jews should not harp of it just because you think it is a waste of time?
No the Jew's are welcome to bring up a well documented atrocity like that.

What I have a problem with is people inventing persecutions that didn't really happen in the way they claim. Calling it the "burning times" is just stupid. But typical I suppose.

I go back to the holocaust, Let's say it wasnt Six MIllion Jews but rather 10 or 100 thousand, does it make the holocaust any less wrong? does it make hitler any less of a monster?
No it doesn't, but that is beside the point, if you want to play the body count game, plenty of christians have died at the hands of pagans. Probably more than the reverse actually. And you are leaving aside the historical reality that in Europe "witch burnings" went down in numbers when the Church was in force not up. The Church put an end to such things it did not commit them. Don't worry, I know you are impervious to reality.

If you look at the totality of the christian history, you will find that for every persecuted christian group, there are just as many pagans, atheists, jews, and others being persecuted BY christians. It's not always obvious, and many times it's subtle, but it is still there.
How convenient you can invent "subtle and otherwise invisible" persecution to make it always there :ahem:

There is a reason I don't take this sort of tripe very seriously.

Jason

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Of course not because it blemishes the idea of the "Perfect universal religion". The church is perfect the church NEVER makes a mistake. Christians NEVER ever do anything that bad do they?
I mean we've had adulterers in the church, Liars in the Church, thieves in the church, I mean there CAN'T be murderers in bigots in the church; right? I mean a christian would NEVER EVER harrass, persecute and even harm someone outside their religion. Never mind that there are scriptures in the christian bible like "Suffer not a Witch to Live" Ex 22:18 (Strange though, It's not in the jewish bible, I actually looked it up.)
Or the fact that Christians have defaced pagan book stores and even gone so far as to kill our pets, Or called police to come break up our rituals, Or come to our pagan pride festivals to harrass and protest our gatherings.
But that NEVER happens I mean Christians are all kind loving and perfect.

[Krusader]

Of course not because it blemishes the idea of the "Perfect universal religion". The church is perfect the church NEVER makes a mistake. Christians NEVER ever do anything that bad do they?
I mean we've had adulterers in the church, Liars in the Church, thieves in the church, I mean there CAN'T be murderers in bigots in the church; right? I mean a christian would NEVER EVER harrass, persecute and even harm someone outside their religion. Never mind that there are scriptures in the christian bible like "Suffer not a Witch to Live" Ex 22:18 (Strange though, It's not in the jewish bible, I actually looked it up.)
Or the fact that Christians have defaced pagan book stores and even gone so far as to kill our pets, Or called police to come break up our rituals, Or come to our pagan pride festivals to harrass and protest our gatherings.
But that NEVER happens I mean Christians are all kind loving and perfect.

No, Christians aren't perfect, except as they stand in Christ. However, Christians are forgiven. I believe you've probably had some really terrible experiences with "Christians" - I'm sorry.

I don't really know any true Christian who would deface any store, or especially kill any pets. If those acts have been done, I can tell you that it wasn't by true Christians.

[Darth Executor]

Cu used to be a fundy Christian. He is now a fundy Pagan instead. Some things never change.

[technomage]

Never mind that there are scriptures in the christian bible like "Suffer not a Witch to Live" Ex 22:18 (Strange though, It's not in the jewish bible, I actually looked it up.)

It's there, but the chapter and verse numbering systems might be different.

[Darth Executor]

It's there, but the chapter and verse numbering systems might be different.

Not that it matters since we're not bound by OT laws anyway.

[Ryokan]

I'd venture to guess the Israelites wouldn't recognize Justin or Cu as witches, but just some wacky Gentiles worshipping a second rate pagan god who couldn't get enough followers to get a decent temple.

[technomage]

I'd venture to guess the Israelites wouldn't recognize Justin or Cu as witches, but just some wacky Gentiles worshipping a second rate pagan god who couldn't get enough followers to get a decent temple.
Ryokan, that's naughty ... especially since you evidently haven't priced religiously-zoned real estate lately. :hehe:

[Ryokan]

Ryokan, that's naughty ... especially since you evidently haven't priced religiously-zoned real estate lately. :hehe:
I never said I wasn't naughty. I do my best to be polite, but even that is a stretch. As far religiously zoned real estate goes, I suppose it is difficult to build a pillared temple in a suburban area these days. And I don't even know what the safety codes on a Zigguarat would be.

[technomage]

I never said I wasn't naughty. I do my best to be polite, but even that is a stretch. As far religiously zoned real estate goes, I suppose it is difficult to build a pillared temple in a suburban area these days. And I don't even know what the safety codes on a Zigguarat would be.

Oy! The safety codes aren't that bad, but they just don't teach Ziggurat Building 101 in Engineering schools anymore. And have you priced raw marble lately? :shocked:

That's why we do our circles outside. Outside circles do have their own variety of risk, but I tell you what, after the first time you run across a patch of poison ivy in a skyclad circle, you'll never forgat what it looks like!

[Ryokan]

That's why we do our circles outside. Outside circles do have their own variety of risk, but I tell you what, after the first time you run across a patch of poison ivy in a skyclad circle, you'll never forgat what it looks like!
Ouch. I never really thought about that.
I remember in gradeschool we had an outdoor mass once, and a bird crapped on the priest head. You can't pay for that kind of entertainment when you are a third grader.

[technomage]

Ouch. I never really thought about that.

Believe me, I know a few people who can recognize poison ivy from half a mile away! :hehe:

I remember in gradeschool we had an outdoor mass once, and a bird crapped on the priest head. You can't pay for that kind of entertainment when you are a third grader.

:lmbo: The mental image is simply priceless!

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Nope I checked the Book itself (Wife has a copy of the Torah in English) In exodus The chapeter does not even have that verse in it. :)

[technomage]

Nope I checked the Book itself (Wife has a copy of the Torah in English) In exodus The chapeter does not even have that verse in it. :)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jps/exo022.htm
Jewish Publication Society: "22:17 Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."

Better check what the wife has ... while you're at it, check your glasses.

[tmancour]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jps/exo022.htm
Jewish Publication Society: "22:17 Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."

Better check what the wife has ... while you're at it, check your glasses.
I might be mistaken (it occasionally happens) but I think the literal translation was more like "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner of wells to live" -- not a bad rule in a desert-based herding society. King James is the one who got it translated as "witch" -- he was having issues with a certain grop of Scottish witches, and wanted biblical authority to smite them.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

[technomage]

I might be mistaken (it occasionally happens) but I think the literal translation was more like "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner of wells to live" -- not a bad rule in a desert-based herding society. King James is the one who got it translated as "witch" -- he was having issues with a certain grop of Scottish witches, and wanted biblical authority to smite them.

Greetings, Arion,

That is, indeed, the "urban legend" in our community, but there is little if any historical information to back it up.

As far as the translation, the word translated "witch" is haKasheph. It's the noun form of the root K-Sh-Ph, which means "to murmer or to mutter." The Hebrew haKasheph was translated as the Greek "pharmakeia" in the Septuigent--"pharmakeia" is related to our modern word "pharmacy," but also relates to making magic potions.

"Poisoner" is not a translation of the Hebrew, but a mistranslation of the Greek.

[tmancour]

Greetings, Arion,

That is, indeed, the "urban legend" in our community, but there is little if any historical information to back it up.

As far as the translation, the word translated "witch" is haKasheph. It's the noun form of the root K-Sh-Ph, which means "to murmer or to mutter." The Hebrew haKasheph was translated as the Greek "pharmakeia" in the Septuigent--"pharmakeia" is related to our modern word "pharmacy," but also relates to making magic potions.

"Poisoner" is not a translation of the Hebrew, but a mistranslation of the Greek.
I stand corrected. The only Semetic language I ever took was Elementary Akkadian, and I can't say I remember much -- or was ever very good at it. If only the Student Store had stocked up on styli and clay tablets . . .

But it's a nice urban legend, and I think I'll keep it. Despite the beauty of the KJV, I never cared much for the monarch, himself, and I enjoy the idea of a circle in Scotland hexing him. Petty of me, I know.

Arion

[technomage]

I stand corrected.

Oh, sit down ... it's more comfortable that way.

If only the Student Store had stocked up on styli and clay tablets . . .

Clay and styli I can do for myself ... but my handwriting is bad enough with Roman characters, I don't think I want to try cuneiform.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Greetings, Arion,

As far as the translation, the word translated "witch" is haKasheph. It's the noun form of the root K-Sh-Ph, which means "to murmer or to mutter." The Hebrew haKasheph was translated as the Greek "pharmakeia" in the Septuigent--"pharmakeia" is related to our modern word "pharmacy," but also relates to making magic potions.
Justin if that is the case then perhaps it should be translated as "Suffer not Stutterers, Complainers and Busy Bodies to live."

[technomage]

... Busy Bodies ...

Must ... resist. Too ... EASY!

Justin

PS: Yes, I know, we'd both be in trouble for that one. Pot ... kettle ... take your pick. :hehe:

[tmancour]

To get back to the topic at hand . . .

While there can be no doubt that most of the victims of the burning times were, in fact, Christian heretics, there can be no doubt that among the intended victims was anyone who practiced the old pagan religions -- and they did go underground. Since they were in no way organized with a bueracracy like Christianity, and they were highly localized to begin with, after a few generations their worship had seguyed into Morris Dances, folk plays, and the like.

But there is one indiginous European pagan culture that escaped the brunt of the Burning Times: the Norse religion in Iceland, which was "converted" to Christianity by a declaration of the king of Denmark somewhere in the 1400s. of course, the Icelanders did not find out about this until 10 years later, or so, and while they did have a few Irish monks show up, most continued the worship of pagan gods in the traditional Norse manner until the present day. So ingrained into their culture is the old way that Reykjavik phonebooks still list everyone by their first name, because they keep the tradition of firstname-father's name (Jorl Sigurdson, Helga Leifsdottir). They also eschewed the traditional marriage patterns of Christian Europe: marriage was largely a financial deal, while sexual relations were a seperate matter. This continued pretty much until WWII, when Allied naval and air bases supplying Britain were built in Iceland, and soldiers from both sides of the pond were astonished at the number of perfectly happy unwed mothers there.

I bring this up because it is indicative that not everywhere was subject to the Christian oppression. Iceland, the Transpolar culture of the Lapps, the Hebrides, and places in Eastern Europe all maintained a quiet pagan culture while "officially" Christian.

Comments?

Arion