Challenge My Beliefs?

[Robyn Banks]

Challenge My Beliefs?

- Philosophy instructor Richard Reilly talks to students about questioning God

Far more often than I'd like - for I live and teach in a conservative religious community - students express the notion that it is wrong for me to question God. "Who are we to question God?" they ask. This puzzles me. Strictly speaking, it seems to me that in all my years of teaching I have never once questioned God in the classroom, and this for a very good reason: he or she (the divinity, that is) has not been in the classroom for me to question, at least not in a form that I can talk to! Not that I would likely question the Supreme Being were he or she to appear. Probably, I'd be too busy grovelling with everyone else. Now I have, I'll admit, poked fun at God in the classroom. But he's a big guy; I'm sure he can deal with it, and truthfully, I mean no disrespect when I do it. I'm sure the Greatest Conceivable Being must at least have a sense of humor - for laughter is pure joy, as Spinoza said. God must therefore be infinitely amused and have a pretty thick skin as well. In fact the only time I ever directly question God is when I'm alone with myself, in silence, typically late at night when I can't sleep and I've got too many troubles weighing upon me. Then I will sometimes question God and ask: so what's this all about? What do you expect from me now? Could you help me out a little bit? I'd really like to get some sleep.

So I wonder what students can mean when they say we shoudn't question God, and even more do I wonder why. After all, in the literature of the world, it is not so often the philosophers who question God, but rather the characters in the scriptures of the world's religions. Consider Abraham, in the Bible, who questions God several times (in Genesis 18.23-32). The latter, you may recall, had stopped by Abraham's place for dinner on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham seems to have doubts about what God intends to do there (namesly, kill every living inhabitant) and challenges him about it. Indeed, not only does he question God, he apparently changes God's mind. God is convinced, it seems, by Abraham's questioning that if there are even a few innocent people left in the city, God should not destroy them. Perhaps, of course, this is what God had planned all along; if he is really omniscient, he must have known Abraham would question him and change his mind. Nevertheless, the fact remains that Abraham questions God and does not seem to get in any trouble for it.

And then, of course, there is Job. I have found that my Christian students are fond of pointing out that Job never loses faith; that, they say, is why he was rewarded in the end. Perhaps so, but Job not only questions God but challenges him to come down for a trial. Does Job get punished for it? On the contrary, he gets rewarded, and his friends, who had insisted that Job should not question the almighty, are punished. God says clearly to them: you have not said the truth about me, as my servant Job has (Job 42.7).

So what's this business about not questioning God?

The thing is, it's not God - never God - that I'm questioning in the classroom, nor usually are the philosophers we study. What we are questioning, rather, are the beliefs we've been taught about God. As I've already said: God is not there to be questioned, at least not in a form from which we can expect a reply - but students are. What, then, can a student really mean in saying "you should not question God" other than: "you should not question my God," or "you should not question my beliefs about God." This fills me with amazement. Why shouldn't I question your beliefs about God?, (I want to ask). Do you mean to tell me that you are infallible, incapable of making a mistake about God? Are you saying that you know God better than all the millions of people in the world who disagree with you, including the rest of us in the classroom who may be just as sincere in our faiths as you are in yours, but who experience God in ways different than you do? Or perhaps you think you have some special connection with God? Are you a prophet, then, or a Messiah? Does God really speak through you? If not, if you are a mere mortal human like the rest of us, and your knowledge of God comes from the mouths or writings of other human beings who are just as fallible, then how can you insist that we not ask questions? How can you be sure that there is no more to be learned about God and that those of us who ask questions - not from arrogance, not from a perverse desire for disputation, but from a sincere desire to know and understand the Truth - are fools?

And then there are the students who think that, although perhaps it is not wrong to ask questions about God, there is no point in it. Why, for example, should we try to prove the existence of God? Why engage in these senseless debates about the nature of God's attributes or the problem of evil, about the afterlife, miracles, and religious experience? Isn't it all just a matter of faith and no more? If believing in God makes a person happy, makes his or her life better, should not that be what matters? And anyway, don't we each have the right to believe whatever we want?

Yes, you do have that right, od course, and I would not want to take it from you. And I agree with you as well that, in the end, God's existence cannot be proven or disproved. Yet I deny the suggestion that one should not think about such things. I even dare to suggest that this attitude, this rejection of reason, of the necessity of careful thought about matters of religion, is perhaps immoral and based on a fundamental delusion about the nature of human beings. No man is an island, John Donne pointed out, yet we often act as if it were so, and this defense of faith, of the right of the individual to believe without question whatever he or she wants, seems to presuppose it. Yes, it's true that faith makes many people happy - or at least that they have an emotional attachment to their belief - but perhaps we ought to consider more than just that. For people of faith must still live in the world; perhaps they speak with God alone in their hearts, but with people they must speak and act in public. This is to say that their beliefs about God do not affect only them. Beliefs have consequences. A belief that has no impact on life, if such a belief exists, is probably not meaningfully held. What we believe about ourselves and the world and people around us influences how we feel and how we behave, how we treat and talk to others, how we judge things, how we vote. What we believe, in other words, has an impact not just on who we are, but on who others are as well. We are less like islands and more like pieces in a puzzle, in which the shape of one piece determines the shape of the next. We have friends, family, children. We exist in relation to them, they to us. In defining ourselves, we define those around us as well.

And yet we speak and act as if we were isolated beings, alone and unaccountable to anyone but ourselves. Yes, it is true that in some ways we are alone, and perhaps each of us must make that leap of faith - or not - by ourselves. The decision is up to you. Yet I insist that if we are going to live together in society, you ought to explain to me why you believe what you do, as will I to you. If you are going to vote for leaders who will enforce your view of the world, who will pass laws and impose your morality on me and those for whom I care, I think I have a right ot know what can be said for your views and why I should listen to your laws or accept your judgment. I must further admit that I take offense to your suggestion that you need not do so, or indeed, that your do not have to because it is the word of God, or the Bible, that it is your belief as a Christian. What makes you think you speak for all Christians? I'm a Christian too, but I don't believe what you believe. Oftentimes it seems to me that your beliefs are frighteningly un-Christian. I'm sure you feel the same of mine. In America, people say whatever they want and attribute it to Jesus. It is the highest offense for you to suggest that you are somehow 'in with God' and that I am not.

But what are we to do then? I fear the retreat into faith because of what it might lead to: holy war. If you will not try to justify your ways to me, nor I to you, what recourse do we have, in the end, but the use of power? How long will it be, I wonder, until frustration with the failure of politics to transform the world as you like leads to violence, to God telling your people to kill mine, to a crusade, an inquisition? How long until I'm thrown in jail for not hearing the God who speaks to you?

How long should I wait, I wonder, before coming after you? When will it be too late.

I don't want that. I hope you don't either. So let's talk about this. Let's engage in dialogue. Tell me what you believe and how you know it's true. I'll do the same. Let's put our guns away and spar with pens, not swords. We might both learn something. And maybe we'll discover that we've not as far apart as we thought.

- Richard Reilly, Philosophy Now 40: Mar/Apr 03 (London: Anja Publications, 2003), 30-31

[themuzicman]

I think the point about questioning God isn't asking God to have mercy on someone, or pleading justice.

It's about a person demanding that God explain why He did or didn't do something, generally something the person considered important. Frequently, it has to do with a loved one dying.

To this, the only answer is that God knows what is best, and since He's God, who are we to question Him? In the end, we must have the faith to believe that God is good and does what is righteous and holy at all times, and that our perspective isn't big enough to demand that God explain Himself.

Certainly we can question God about wisdom or petition for things in His name. I don't think that was ever an issue.

The author has obviously taken a Christian phrase which has specific context, and clearly misunderstood it.

As for my belief, the author also fails to comprehend that the bible is the standard for understanding what we might hear from or believe about God, and our guide and boundary to keep us from wandering off into the weird. Something Mr. Reilly apparantly doesn't have.

"In America, people say whatever they want and attribute it to Jesus." Oh, and that statement is bigotted and offensive, probably a clear reflection of the author's belief about Americans and Christians.

Michael

[FirstSunday33ad]

You're wrong....

You don't have too beg Christians to discuss God with you or to defend their faith, they have shown themselves all too willing to do just that.

[Bob Jenkins]

Posted: 06-02-2003 at 02:21 PM
From FirstSunday33ad
Mr. Reilly?
[post#3]

You're wrong....

You don't have too beg Christians to discuss God with you or to defend their faith, they have shown themselves all too willing to do just that.

I find that a strange answer to Robyn Banks especially coming from this poster. Reference the entirity of the thread "Doctrine of Inerrancy".
http://theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121369#post121369


His willingness to discuss is evidenced by a solitaty link and then silence.

[kkawohl]

Let's try a little humor...cause people have a tendency to complicate things...and kill each other in the name of Allah/God.

...I suppose we’all have to live by the word of Allah/God because someone told it...it's in the Qur’an, Torah, and the Bible...and we have to believe it...if we didn't believe it...we’all would be condemned to hell...do I have it straight?

And...This God...HE magically appeared out of nowhere...HE then created the whole universe, magically...out of nuthin'...cause he was lonely by HIMSELF...cause there was nuthin' but himself floatin' around in nuthingness...do I have it straight?

Y’all need to think straight...y’all have been duped...and need to get rid of superstitions...it's the 21st Century.

My spirit has seen the face of God and if I'm lying I'm risking the survival of my soul...and I KNOW that my soul will be with God...God is spiritual and is the progressive and accumulative spiritual intelligence of the universe; of all the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm. God does not and never has meddled in the tangible universe.

It is of no importance during our physical life whether God exists or not if one so chooses. Whether or not one believes in a spirit or God really makes no difference to God. Righteous living will determine the continuance and destiny of our spirit/soul.

One's life can be enhanced by receiving solace and being comforted during life's trials and tribulations by having our spirit inspired and blessed by the Spirit of God. This is normally man's only connection with God except when God’s Spirit interacts with a person’s spirit directly; God’s messenger. However, the Ultimate Truth is indecipherable by the human mind and can only be divulged to the spirit which also often misinterprets its meaning, hence we have various religions and beliefs.

All religions have the same goal. Our intelligence compared to God is like that of a 2 year old child. God will make allowances for our ignorance.

The Scenario

The souls of a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Islamic cleric appeared at the gates of heaven at the same time and they eye each other suspiciously. The gatekeeper asked if there is a problem.

The Rabbi tells St. Peter , "Ours is the true religion. We have the word of God that this is so and it is written in the Torah that God said that we are the chosen children of God, not the Christians or the Muslims."

The Christian minister says, "Jesus told us that he is the son of God and that the only way to God was by following his teachings and that unless one is born again, one would not get into heaven. What Jesus said is the word of God and it is written in the holy Bible".

The Muslim cleric says, "God has told Muhammad that he was the last true prophet and that everything that God told him was written in the Qur’an and that those who did not follow what was written there, would not get into heaven. Islam is the only true faith which has been promised to be free from being wiped away from its true path. We believe in a Prophet, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad , to be the Messiah that was foretold by all faiths, and he sowed the seeds for our community to guide all of the various faiths under the banner of Islam, towards allah.”

Other souls appeared and some sided with and gathered around each of their leaders, while some other souls who sided with no one entered directly through the gates of heaven.

The gatekeeper told the souls who had gathered around the souls of their clerics, "In heaven there can be no disagreement and until you all are in agreement, you have to move to the Purgatory area".

No agreement was reached and eventually the souls died (Hell) because souls who were not with God could not exist.

The lesson is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be bad for the body and suicide to the soul.

**************

Transcendentalism is not a religion. It is the rationality and logic that should be applied to All religions. One needs to keep an open mind and allow the spirit to absorb the logic of who/what God is without being inhibited by what should be considered outdated religious dogma and conditioning that has been a major contributing factor to the causes of terrorism.

The phrase “I Am A Transcendentalist” can influence the beginning of a new realization in many religions. If humanity would ever accept a completely logical deity called God, Allah, etc., ALL BORDERS between opposing religious factions could be eliminated and peace thereafter could possibly be a reality.

Namaste,
Kurt Kawohl

[Ezraarah]

Challenge My Beliefs?

- Philosophy instructor Richard Reilly talks to students about questioning God

Far more often than I'd like - for I live and teach in a conservative religious community - students express the notion that it is wrong for me to question God. "Who are we to question God?" they ask. This puzzles me. Strictly speaking, it seems to me that in all my years of teaching I have never once questioned God in the classroom, and this for a very good reason: he or she (the divinity, that is) has not been in the classroom for me to question, at least not in a form that I can talk to! Not that I would likely question the Supreme Being were he or she to appear. Probably, I'd be too busy grovelling with everyone else. Now I have, I'll admit, poked fun at God in the classroom. But he's a big guy; I'm sure he can deal with it, and truthfully, I mean no disrespect when I do it. I'm sure the Greatest Conceivable Being must at least have a sense of humor - for laughter is pure joy, as Spinoza said. God must therefore be infinitely amused and have a pretty thick skin as well. In fact the only time I ever directly question God is when I'm alone with myself, in silence, typically late at night when I can't sleep and I've got too many troubles weighing upon me. Then I will sometimes question God and ask: so what's this all about? What do you expect from me now? Could you help me out a little bit? I'd really like to get some sleep.

So I wonder what students can mean when they say we shoudn't question God, and even more do I wonder why. After all, in the literature of the world, it is not so often the philosophers who question God, but rather the characters in the scriptures of the world's religions. Consider Abraham, in the Bible, who questions God several times (in Genesis 18.23-32). The latter, you may recall, had stopped by Abraham's place for dinner on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham seems to have doubts about what God intends to do there (namesly, kill every living inhabitant) and challenges him about it. Indeed, not only does he question God, he apparently changes God's mind. God is convinced, it seems, by Abraham's questioning that if there are even a few innocent people left in the city, God should not destroy them. Perhaps, of course, this is what God had planned all along; if he is really omniscient, he must have known Abraham would question him and change his mind. Nevertheless, the fact remains that Abraham questions God and does not seem to get in any trouble for it.

And then, of course, there is Job. I have found that my Christian students are fond of pointing out that Job never loses faith; that, they say, is why he was rewarded in the end. Perhaps so, but Job not only questions God but challenges him to come down for a trial. Does Job get punished for it? On the contrary, he gets rewarded, and his friends, who had insisted that Job should not question the almighty, are punished. God says clearly to them: you have not said the truth about me, as my servant Job has (Job 42.7).

So what's this business about not questioning God?

The thing is, it's not God - never God - that I'm questioning in the classroom, nor usually are the philosophers we study. What we are questioning, rather, are the beliefs we've been taught about God. As I've already said: God is not there to be questioned, at least not in a form from which we can expect a reply - but students are. What, then, can a student really mean in saying "you should not question God" other than: "you should not question my God," or "you should not question my beliefs about God." This fills me with amazement. Why shouldn't I question your beliefs about God?, (I want to ask). Do you mean to tell me that you are infallible, incapable of making a mistake about God? Are you saying that you know God better than all the millions of people in the world who disagree with you, including the rest of us in the classroom who may be just as sincere in our faiths as you are in yours, but who experience God in ways different than you do? Or perhaps you think you have some special connection with God? Are you a prophet, then, or a Messiah? Does God really speak through you? If not, if you are a mere mortal human like the rest of us, and your knowledge of God comes from the mouths or writings of other human beings who are just as fallible, then how can you insist that we not ask questions? How can you be sure that there is no more to be learned about God and that those of us who ask questions - not from arrogance, not from a perverse desire for disputation, but from a sincere desire to know and understand the Truth - are fools?

And then there are the students who think that, although perhaps it is not wrong to ask questions about God, there is no point in it. Why, for example, should we try to prove the existence of God? Why engage in these senseless debates about the nature of God's attributes or the problem of evil, about the afterlife, miracles, and religious experience? Isn't it all just a matter of faith and no more? If believing in God makes a person happy, makes his or her life better, should not that be what matters? And anyway, don't we each have the right to believe whatever we want?

Yes, you do have that right, od course, and I would not want to take it from you. And I agree with you as well that, in the end, God's existence cannot be proven or disproved. Yet I deny the suggestion that one should not think about such things. I even dare to suggest that this attitude, this rejection of reason, of the necessity of careful thought about matters of religion, is perhaps immoral and based on a fundamental delusion about the nature of human beings. No man is an island, John Donne pointed out, yet we often act as if it were so, and this defense of faith, of the right of the individual to believe without question whatever he or she wants, seems to presuppose it. Yes, it's true that faith makes many people happy - or at least that they have an emotional attachment to their belief - but perhaps we ought to consider more than just that. For people of faith must still live in the world; perhaps they speak with God alone in their hearts, but with people they must speak and act in public. This is to say that their beliefs about God do not affect only them. Beliefs have consequences. A belief that has no impact on life, if such a belief exists, is probably not meaningfully held. What we believe about ourselves and the world and people around us influences how we feel and how we behave, how we treat and talk to others, how we judge things, how we vote. What we believe, in other words, has an impact not just on who we are, but on who others are as well. We are less like islands and more like pieces in a puzzle, in which the shape of one piece determines the shape of the next. We have friends, family, children. We exist in relation to them, they to us. In defining ourselves, we define those around us as well.

And yet we speak and act as if we were isolated beings, alone and unaccountable to anyone but ourselves. Yes, it is true that in some ways we are alone, and perhaps each of us must make that leap of faith - or not - by ourselves. The decision is up to you. Yet I insist that if we are going to live together in society, you ought to explain to me why you believe what you do, as will I to you. If you are going to vote for leaders who will enforce your view of the world, who will pass laws and impose your morality on me and those for whom I care, I think I have a right ot know what can be said for your views and why I should listen to your laws or accept your judgment. I must further admit that I take offense to your suggestion that you need not do so, or indeed, that your do not have to because it is the word of God, or the Bible, that it is your belief as a Christian. What makes you think you speak for all Christians? I'm a Christian too, but I don't believe what you believe. Oftentimes it seems to me that your beliefs are frighteningly un-Christian. I'm sure you feel the same of mine. In America, people say whatever they want and attribute it to Jesus. It is the highest offense for you to suggest that you are somehow 'in with God' and that I am not.

But what are we to do then? I fear the retreat into faith because of what it might lead to: holy war. If you will not try to justify your ways to me, nor I to you, what recourse do we have, in the end, but the use of power? How long will it be, I wonder, until frustration with the failure of politics to transform the world as you like leads to violence, to God telling your people to kill mine, to a crusade, an inquisition? How long until I'm thrown in jail for not hearing the God who speaks to you?

How long should I wait, I wonder, before coming after you? When will it be too late.

I don't want that. I hope you don't either. So let's talk about this. Let's engage in dialogue. Tell me what you believe and how you know it's true. I'll do the same. Let's put our guns away and spar with pens, not swords. We might both learn something. And maybe we'll discover that we've not as far apart as we thought.

- Richard Reilly, Philosophy Now 40: Mar/Apr 03 (London: Anja Publications, 2003), 30-31
Ques ; Is There A Difference BetweenThe Father And The Son In The Bible ?
If you ask any Christian who are these Verse pertaining to they would Answer
( WithOut A Doubt In Their Minds ) . that these Verse are Speaking of The Messiah Yashua , Also Take A LQQk At The Many Titles Which Are Attributed To Him . < Biblical Names Attributed To The Messiah Yashua >
The seed of woman < Genesis 3 ; 15 > The caption of Savation < Job 5 ; 13 - 14 > Wonderful < Isaiah 9 ; 6 ; Judge 13 ; 8 > I am that I am < Ex odus 3 ; 14 > The mighty God < Isaiah 9 ; 6 > Emmanuel < Isaiah 7; 14 > The Rose of Sharon lilly of the valley < Song of Solomon 2 ; 1 > Theprince of pace < Isaiah 9- 6 > The Mediator < 1Timothy 2 ; 5 > The helper < Hebrew 13 ; 6> The Rewarder of Faith < Hebrew11 ; 6 > The Branch < Zachariah 6 ; 12 > A Man of sorrows < Isaiah 53 ; 3 > The Bringer of Good Tidings < Isaiah 41 ; 27 > The Chief Cornerstone < Isaiah 28 ; 16 > The Redeemer < Job 19 ; 25 >
This is only a small list of the different names that are Attributed to The Messiah Yashua Without Even His Name Being Mentioned . I Repeat The Name '' Yashua / Jesus '' IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THESE VERSE . HowEver , You Have Christian Will Undoubtedly Tell You That These Verse Are In Fact Speaking About The Messiah Yashua < NOT >
I Again Repeat The Name '' Yashua / Jesus '' IS NOT FOUND IN ANY OF THESE VERSE .. OverStand SomeThing Ok I Deal Only In Facts Ok
Ans. There is a distinction made between the father , And the son John 5 ; 19 ''Then Answered Jesus And Said Unto Them , Verity , Verily , I Say Unto You The Son ( Hwee - Os ) . Can Do Nothing Of Himself , But What He Seeth The Father ( Pat - Ayr ) Notice Greek Word For Son is Spell ( Hwee - Os )
Bible - New Testament , 2John 1 - 3 ( With Greek Insert ) states , Grace be with you , mercy , and peace , from God the Father , and from the Lord Jesus Christ , theSon of the Father , in truth and love , '' .... Then when you go to 1John 4 ;14 - New Testament ( With Greek Insert ) A Letter To His Girl Friend Cyria , You Read ;... And We Have Seen And Do Testify That The Father Sent The Son To Be The Saviour Of The World '' And In 1John 2 ; 22 - New Testament ( With Greek Insert ) You Read , '' Who Is A Liar But He That Denieth That Jesus Is The Christ ? He Is Antichrist , That Denieth The Father And The Son '' These quotes above aremaking it clear that Jesus and God are not the same being or person , NoMore Then You And Your Father Are TheSame Person . LQQking at these quotes from Your King James Version of the Bible , Jesus could not have possibly been The Son And The Father . He has to be Either one or the other , And it is very clear which one is The Son That's All Just like all of Us are Children Of God ( John 10 ; 34 - 36 ) . So now as far as when They say in The Greek Translation John 1 ; 1 - New Testament ( With Greek Insert ) , It States ... '' In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God and the Word was God , <> They are really saying '' In The Beginning Their Was An Oath And That Oath Was The Word , ;....The Greek Word For In Is
'' En '' Which is also The Sumerian Word '' En '' or An '' Name Of The Highest And It Denotes A Position '' In Place , Time Or States Thus God Must Have Been At A Specific Place , At A Specific Time '' In The Beginning '' And Was God The Word ( Logos ) or Was The World ( Logos ) With God . Because It Couldn't Be With God And Be God . < Statement In Itself Would Contradict Itself ; The Word In Greek Log -Os Was A '' Speech , Saying , Decree '' From the Root Word Leg - O meaning '' Say , Speak '' Which In Hebrew would be Daw - Bar '' Word , Saying , Speech , Utterance '' Genesis 15 ; 1 , 4 , And The Greek Word Used For Beginning Is Ar - Khay Meaning '' Chief ( Order , Time , Place , Or Rank ) ;....Beginning , Corner ( At The , The ) First ( Estate ) Magistrate . Power , Principality . Principle , Rule ''
American Heritage Dictionary Defines Arch . As ;
Chief , Principal . From Middle English . Arche From , Old English , Arce , Erce , From Latin , Archi - Arch - , Fr Greek Arci . Are , Meaning '' Leader , Chief Ruler ' From The Stem Of Arceiv , To Begin , Rule '
In Serveral Quotes In The New Testament Jesus Made It Clear That You Are To Worship God And Not Him When He Made Reference To God He Used The Third Person Singular '' Him '' Not The First Person Singular Me In Luke 4; 8 Jesus Says And I Quote He Said Worship Him Not Me
In John 4 ; 23 - 24 Jesus States Againt In The Red Letter Writting Of Your Bible And I Quote He Said Worship Him And Not Me .
And In John 14 ; 10 Jesus Gives All Praise And Gratitude To His Heavenly Father And I Quote He Used The Word He Not Me
The ( Trinity ) Is Of ( Pagan ) Origion And Every ( Pholytheistic ) Culture Has Their Own Reprentation Of It ... Common Sense Should Tell You That Three Person Yet One God Theory Is Impossible ..
( 1 ) Plus ( 1) Plus 1
God The Father God The Son God The Holy Ghost
Three Cannot Go Into One , With Yashu'a Was God How Could He Forsaken Himself (Matthew 27 ; 46 ... Mark 15; 34 ) And If He Was God Who Was He Calling Out To Himself ? I Thought God So Loved The World , That He Sent His Son To Die For You .. If That's True As John 3; 16 Says , Then Jesus Had Nothing To Do With It It Was That Father That Sent Him . In Matthew 6 ; 9 As Jesus Say '' Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' Because Jesus Say In John 13 ; 16 '' I Am Not Greater Than He Who Sent Me '' And In John 5; 30 He Says Again That '' I On My Own Accord Can Do Nothing '' Call No Man Father , Because There Is One Father Who Art In Heaven And Jesus Says Clearly In Matthew 23; 9 '' And Call No Man Your Father Upon The Earth
Truth Is Truth And If It Was About His Father's Will Then Why Did Jesus SAy In Matthew 26; 38 >> If Be Possible Let This Cup Pass By Me ; Nevertheless Not As I Will , But As Thou Wilt ''
Let Me Point Out A Few Points From Your Bible Stating That Jesus Couldn't Possibly Be God ..
Mark 15 ; 34 >> Jesus cried out with a loud voice My God , My God Why have thou Forsaken Me . <<< If Jesus was God who could he be praying to if he is the only God , and to cry is a human Weakness .
Mathew 4; 1 >>Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil << If Jesus was God how could the devil Possibly be able to tempt him without him knowing >> And What Could The Devil Possibly Offer The Creator Of Everything .
Luke 14 ; 26 >> If anyman come to me , and hate not his Father And Mother And Wife And Chrildren And Brethren And Sister , Yea And His Own Life Also , He Cannot Be My Disciple . <<< If Jesus was God and he so loved the world why would you have to hate your family And even yourself , when it say in Leviticus 19 ; 1 That Hatred Is A Sin
John 14 ; 2 >> In My Father House Are Many Mansions .>>> Jesus Said In My Father's House , He [ Didsn't Say In My House ] Would It Have Made Sense To Say In My House [ If He Was God ? ]
Luke 2; 49 >> That I Must Be About My Father's Business '>> If Jesus Was God Why Did He Say I Must Be Of My Fathers Business , He Indicated . [ The Distinction Between Him And His Father .
I'm Should You Can Find More If You Open Your Eyes , Thoughout Your Bible It Speak About Jesus Being The Son Of God , And Not God Himself
What Other Proof Do I Have That Jesus And The Father Are Two Separate Beings ..?
Was Only A Man >> Matthew 1 ; 25 ...... Was Baptized >>>> Matthew 3; 13
Was Tempted >>>> Matthew 4; 1 ...... Slept >>>> Matthew 8 ; 24
Ate >>> Luke 24 ; 42 ...... Hungered >>>> Matthew 21 ; 18
Weakened >>> John 4; 6 .... Said Something He Shouldn't Have John 20; 17
Cried At Lazarus Grave >> John 20; 17
What Is A Trinity ?
The Word For Trinity In Aramic / Hebrew Is Shelesh , And ;; Triad '' It Is Mentioned Only In 1Chronicles 7; 35 And Thalaathatin In Ashuric / Syriac / Arabic Found In The Koran 4 ; 171 , 5;73 And Means ; Trinity , Triad , Triple , The Greek Word For Trinity Is Triad ( 1John 5 ; 7 ) . Triad Simply Means Tri Which Means Three ( 3 ) . When You Take Any Three Things And Say They Make Up Any One Thing That Would Be A Trinty , There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .
The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Is Not Alive And The Father Is God Not The Son .. The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Accodring To The Christian Teaching Die At The Age Of 33 , By Saying That He Is '' Alive Again '' Mean God Died Before ????? !!!!!! < Mrs. Nancy > Smileing >> That Make Absolutely No Sense . You Stated Now That He Is Alive Again Forever He Is God . So What You're Saying Is That God Died And Came Back To Life , And At Some Point He Stopped Being God God Is All Existing . And Made It Possible For All Things To Exist . If He '' Dies '' What Do You Think Would Happen To The Rest Of Us . Exactly . We Would All Cease To Exist As Well Because We Are All Apart Of The Heavenly Father . Also , If The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Is God The Who Was He Praying To In Matthew 6 ; 9 - 13 He Says Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' , So He's Not God Or Otherwise He Would've Been Praying To Himself . Let Me Point Out To You That The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Was And Israelite . It Is Common Sense That The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Would Not Violate Such A Powerful Israelite Judaic Command As The Worship Of God Alone ( Exodus 20; 3 - 4 ) By Claiming To Be That Very God Whom He Pray To In Matthew 26 ; 39 .
'' AND HE WENT A LITTLE FARTHER
AND FELL ON HIS FACE AND PRAYED
( SAYING , O FATHER MY FATHER )
Think About It . It Doesn't Make Much Sense For Jesus To Pray To Himself . If Jesus Was God , He Wouldn't Have No Need To PRAY . In Several Quotes In The New Tesament The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Made It Clear That Your Are To Worship God AndNot Him . When He Made Reference To God , He Used The THIRD Person Singular '' Him '' Not The First Person Singular '' Me '' In Luke 4 ; 8 JesusSaysAnd I Quote ;
AND JESUS ANSWER AND SAID
UNTO HIM GET THEE BEHIND ME
SATAN ; FOR IT IS WRITTEN , THOU
SHALT WORSHIP THE LORD THY GOD
AND HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE ''
He Said Worship Him Not Me
In John 4 ; 23 - 24 Jesus States Again In The Red Letter Writting Of Your Bible And I Quote
'' BUT THE HOUR COMETH AND NOW IS WHEN THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH ; FOR THE FATHER SEEKETH SUCH TO WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH . < He Said Worship Him And Not Me .
And In John 14 ; 10 JesusGive All Praise AndGratitude To His Heavenlt Father And I Quote ;
BELIEVEST THOU NOT THAT I AM IN
THE FATHER , AND THE FATHER IN ME ?
THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I
SPEAK NOT OF MYSELF ; BUT THE FATHER
THAT DWELLETH IN ME , HEDOETH THE WORKS
He Used The Word He Not Me
No Man's Body Can Contain God , Not If You Mean That He Has The Essence Of His Father In Him , Then All Man Are God's Son And Daughter , Read Genesis 2 ;7 When God Breathe Into Man The Breath Of Life '' And The Lord God Formed Man From The Dust Of The Ground , And Breathed Into His Nostrils The Breath Of Life ; And Man Became A Living Soul . .. However , Getting Back To The Point Whether He Incarnated Or Came Himself There Still Wouldn't Be Any Need For Him To Pray Or Ask For Assistance From Anyone If He Was God , The Creator . Can't You See That ?Not Only Would He Not Need To Pray He Would Have No Desire To Eat Meat
Luke 24 ; 41 , Beg That Death Passes Him Matthew 26 ; 39 , Feared AndRan For His Life John 18 ; 3 Which Means That '' God Has To Run From His Creation . It Seems Like You Totally Ignored All Of These Scriptures And Found One That Sound Good To You , And Built A Whole Doctrine From It . Another Quality That The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Did Not Possess According To Roman 13 ; 1 And
2Corinthians 1 ; 23 Is The Power To Assign The Soul Their Positions In The Hereafter According To The Author Of These 2 Books Which Was Paul . Only The Heavenly Father Possess Such Power . Exalting Jesus Beyond The Truth Is Shown To Be A Form Of Idolatry . Once Again In Matthew 7 ; 21 Jesus Tells People To Do The Will Of The Father . ... In Both Luke 4 ; 8 And Mathew 4; 10 We Come Across An Incident That Clearly Contradicts The Concept Of Jesus Claining Absolute Divinity . According To These Two References Matthew 27 ; 46 And Mark 15 ;34 Jesus Was Put On The Cross Left To Die . Then According To Those Who Believe The Crucifixion Story , At That Time Jesus Cried In A Loud Voice . If Jesus Was God He Would Not Have To Say Any Of These Things In The First Place . How Could You Possibly Forsake Your Ownself ? If HeWas God Or Eli As It Is Used In This Quote , He Would Not Need Consent From Anyone . Overstand ... This Could Not Possibly Be The Words Of A person Who Saw Himself As The The Controller Of All Life And Death Because He Cried Out '' My God '' It Simply Isn't Logical . The Prophet Messiah Yashu'a / Jesus Never Encouraged Anyone To Worship Him Instead , He Taught Others To Worship His Father .. As I Have Just Shown You By Useing The Scripture .

.

[Xavier]

:stop:

ATTENTION, ATTENTION:

Please stop spamming our forum with the SAME post over and over and over and over...

No one is responding for two reasons:
1) It's unintelligable... Spend some time of FORMATTING...
2) You've posted it in EVERY thread with the word Trinity...

:stop:

[EvoUK]

I thought it was looking familiar...

Still haven't bothered to read it yet though... maybe tomorrow... maybe the next day...

[apologetics]

I thought it was looking familiar...

Still haven't bothered to read it yet though... maybe tomorrow... maybe the next day...

for me....it is maybe never.....

the guy is off his rocker......

[BurntOffering]

In fact GOD said; "My people perish for lack of knowledge" and also said We have Not; because We ASK NOT!

So you can ASK GOD for Wisdom, Guidance, Understanding, Knowledge, and anthing else you want to know; just understand that sometimes the GODs answer is NO!

So if you have ANY question that pressing on your heart, I would suggest you go into a Prayer and Fast so you can get your answers quick. Or just ask me; cause I do know GOD personally and a bunch of other stuff.

As told by GODs other kid, Escape Goat, Burnt Offering, 1/3 of the Trinity family aka Satan

Peace out

[Ezraarah]

Challenge My Beliefs?

- Philosophy instructor Richard Reilly talks to students about questioning God

Far more often than I'd like - for I live and teach in a conservative religious community - students express the notion that it is wrong for me to question God. "Who are we to question God?" they ask. This puzzles me. Strictly speaking, it seems to me that in all my years of teaching I have never once questioned God in the classroom, and this for a very good reason: he or she (the divinity, that is) has not been in the classroom for me to question, at least not in a form that I can talk to! Not that I would likely question the Supreme Being were he or she to appear. Probably, I'd be too busy grovelling with everyone else. Now I have, I'll admit, poked fun at God in the classroom. But he's a big guy; I'm sure he can deal with it, and truthfully, I mean no disrespect when I do it. I'm sure the Greatest Conceivable Being must at least have a sense of humor - for laughter is pure joy, as Spinoza said. God must therefore be infinitely amused and have a pretty thick skin as well. In fact the only time I ever directly question God is when I'm alone with myself, in silence, typically late at night when I can't sleep and I've got too many troubles weighing upon me. Then I will sometimes question God and ask: so what's this all about? What do you expect from me now? Could you help me out a little bit? I'd really like to get some sleep.

So I wonder what students can mean when they say we shoudn't question God, and even more do I wonder why. After all, in the literature of the world, it is not so often the philosophers who question God, but rather the characters in the scriptures of the world's religions. Consider Abraham, in the Bible, who questions God several times (in Genesis 18.23-32). The latter, you may recall, had stopped by Abraham's place for dinner on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham seems to have doubts about what God intends to do there (namesly, kill every living inhabitant) and challenges him about it. Indeed, not only does he question God, he apparently changes God's mind. God is convinced, it seems, by Abraham's questioning that if there are even a few innocent people left in the city, God should not destroy them. Perhaps, of course, this is what God had planned all along; if he is really omniscient, he must have known Abraham would question him and change his mind. Nevertheless, the fact remains that Abraham questions God and does not seem to get in any trouble for it.

And then, of course, there is Job. I have found that my Christian students are fond of pointing out that Job never loses faith; that, they say, is why he was rewarded in the end. Perhaps so, but Job not only questions God but challenges him to come down for a trial. Does Job get punished for it? On the contrary, he gets rewarded, and his friends, who had insisted that Job should not question the almighty, are punished. God says clearly to them: you have not said the truth about me, as my servant Job has (Job 42.7).

So what's this business about not questioning God?

The thing is, it's not God - never God - that I'm questioning in the classroom, nor usually are the philosophers we study. What we are questioning, rather, are the beliefs we've been taught about God. As I've already said: God is not there to be questioned, at least not in a form from which we can expect a reply - but students are. What, then, can a student really mean in saying "you should not question God" other than: "you should not question my God," or "you should not question my beliefs about God." This fills me with amazement. Why shouldn't I question your beliefs about God?, (I want to ask). Do you mean to tell me that you are infallible, incapable of making a mistake about God? Are you saying that you know God better than all the millions of people in the world who disagree with you, including the rest of us in the classroom who may be just as sincere in our faiths as you are in yours, but who experience God in ways different than you do? Or perhaps you think you have some special connection with God? Are you a prophet, then, or a Messiah? Does God really speak through you? If not, if you are a mere mortal human like the rest of us, and your knowledge of God comes from the mouths or writings of other human beings who are just as fallible, then how can you insist that we not ask questions? How can you be sure that there is no more to be learned about God and that those of us who ask questions - not from arrogance, not from a perverse desire for disputation, but from a sincere desire to know and understand the Truth - are fools?

And then there are the students who think that, although perhaps it is not wrong to ask questions about God, there is no point in it. Why, for example, should we try to prove the existence of God? Why engage in these senseless debates about the nature of God's attributes or the problem of evil, about the afterlife, miracles, and religious experience? Isn't it all just a matter of faith and no more? If believing in God makes a person happy, makes his or her life better, should not that be what matters? And anyway, don't we each have the right to believe whatever we want?

Yes, you do have that right, od course, and I would not want to take it from you. And I agree with you as well that, in the end, God's existence cannot be proven or disproved. Yet I deny the suggestion that one should not think about such things. I even dare to suggest that this attitude, this rejection of reason, of the necessity of careful thought about matters of religion, is perhaps immoral and based on a fundamental delusion about the nature of human beings. No man is an island, John Donne pointed out, yet we often act as if it were so, and this defense of faith, of the right of the individual to believe without question whatever he or she wants, seems to presuppose it. Yes, it's true that faith makes many people happy - or at least that they have an emotional attachment to their belief - but perhaps we ought to consider more than just that. For people of faith must still live in the world; perhaps they speak with God alone in their hearts, but with people they must speak and act in public. This is to say that their beliefs about God do not affect only them. Beliefs have consequences. A belief that has no impact on life, if such a belief exists, is probably not meaningfully held. What we believe about ourselves and the world and people around us influences how we feel and how we behave, how we treat and talk to others, how we judge things, how we vote. What we believe, in other words, has an impact not just on who we are, but on who others are as well. We are less like islands and more like pieces in a puzzle, in which the shape of one piece determines the shape of the next. We have friends, family, children. We exist in relation to them, they to us. In defining ourselves, we define those around us as well.

And yet we speak and act as if we were isolated beings, alone and unaccountable to anyone but ourselves. Yes, it is true that in some ways we are alone, and perhaps each of us must make that leap of faith - or not - by ourselves. The decision is up to you. Yet I insist that if we are going to live together in society, you ought to explain to me why you believe what you do, as will I to you. If you are going to vote for leaders who will enforce your view of the world, who will pass laws and impose your morality on me and those for whom I care, I think I have a right ot know what can be said for your views and why I should listen to your laws or accept your judgment. I must further admit that I take offense to your suggestion that you need not do so, or indeed, that your do not have to because it is the word of God, or the Bible, that it is your belief as a Christian. What makes you think you speak for all Christians? I'm a Christian too, but I don't believe what you believe. Oftentimes it seems to me that your beliefs are frighteningly un-Christian. I'm sure you feel the same of mine. In America, people say whatever they want and attribute it to Jesus. It is the highest offense for you to suggest that you are somehow 'in with God' and that I am not.

But what are we to do then? I fear the retreat into faith because of what it might lead to: holy war. If you will not try to justify your ways to me, nor I to you, what recourse do we have, in the end, but the use of power? How long will it be, I wonder, until frustration with the failure of politics to transform the world as you like leads to violence, to God telling your people to kill mine, to a crusade, an inquisition? How long until I'm thrown in jail for not hearing the God who speaks to you?

How long should I wait, I wonder, before coming after you? When will it be too late.

I don't want that. I hope you don't either. So let's talk about this. Let's engage in dialogue. Tell me what you believe and how you know it's true. I'll do the same. Let's put our guns away and spar with pens, not swords. We might both learn something. And maybe we'll discover that we've not as far apart as we thought.

- Richard Reilly, Philosophy Now 40: Mar/Apr 03 (London: Anja Publications, 2003), 30-31
Question ; Does God Have A Beginning ?