Genesis creation account disproves theistic evolution and millions of years theory

[Thedonhopeless]

Part one:

Bare with me, as I take you on a ride through The first chapter of Genesis. I am going to kill two birds with one stone here. The birds are that God created life using evolution, and that the days mentioned in Genesis do not consist of 24 hour periods, but thousands,millions or billions of years. The stone being a literal read of Genesis chapter 1 and some of chapter 2.

Buckle up, here we go. :lol:

Gen 1. 1-2 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The first thing that is important to consider, is that God is in the universe as we know it. He is no longer dwelling in His spiritual realm, but existing within the confines of the universe. This is proved by the fact that He is hovering over the waters of the earth.

As of right now, no telling how long God hovered, because no time existed until the next few verses. So it is moot to even talk about how long He was there.

Gen 1 3-5 And God said, " Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning- the first day.

So, now we get to the part where the tone for the rest of creation is set. These verses above, show that the first thing on God's mind was to create time. He created light to contrast the darkness, and separated them. Now, remember from the first verses, it showed that God was within the earth, not in his own "space", wherever that may be. He was in the construction zone, and now He was creating the orderly rules that zone were to follow.
There was evening, and there was morning, by saying this, it shows time passed..there was evening, then morning, so it was not static, we have the the first universal day. This cannot in any way be seen as anything but 24 hour days, for that is how the rules are right now within the earth's framework. He created time for us, and it hasn't changed since. Evening, then morning, the first day.
Let us move on.

Gen 1 6-8 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.

OK, now the earth had water and sky. Nothing really to add here except I don't think it took to long to separate the two spaces. He separated the red sea in a blink of an eye, therefore no reason at all to think it took millions of years to separate water here. With the principle already stated, we have the second day that has passed. A short day, a short night, we call it 12 hours each, 24 hours total. No life yet. Moving on.

Gen 1 9-13 And God said, " Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters He called "seas." And God saw that is was good.
Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their kinds." And it was so.
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.

Still with me? Ok, God did a few things this day, he made seas and land. Then he created vegetation according to their kinds. The fact that he created them to their kinds is the first evidence we have that evolution was not in existence here. Besides the facts that I already stated about time, and that plants couldn't evolve in 24 hours, the passage is clear that God created each and every kind of vegetation, trees and plants. The plants didn't evolve here, they were created separately according to what they were. God did not create one little microbe and all the plants sprouted from it after millions of years, for one there was only 24 hours in that day, for two he created them with seeds and what fruit to bear.
It was part of a pre-planned blue print of the universe. What tree will bear what fruit. There is no principle of trees forming fruit based on a slow evolution or even speciation. They were there, completely and fully formed with exactly what they were supposed to have according to their various kinds.
Another compelling point is that there existed plants on land under water and land that was separated from water. There is no reconciliation for this, that some how the progeny of water based plants spread across dry land, or vise versa.
No life yet.

(note: I was manually typing verses from my bible, now I am just copying and pasting from an on line bible of the same version to save time.) Gen 1 14-19 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Now, this is interesting. First, there was light without the use of the sun and stars. I can only give my best guess on how there was light without such things, and that is that it was sustained by God. This is not far fetched as in verses we will touch upon soon, He does the same thing for life until he gets around to creating food.
Here though, we see that He gives up this sustaining light so that the universe can govern time itself, instead of his power. This is more proof that the days are 24 hour days not millions of years. For now there is a specific sunrise and sunset, being the fourth day. The world is quickly becoming autonomous, as autonomous as God allows it to be that is. Now the time system is fully revealed. Now not only are there days, but years and seasons.
I will not touch upon the astronomy of how stars were created or used. Using scripture alone, we see that the stars had to be created within a 24 hour period, therefore the light from such stars were readily available to the earth, to illuminate and to show signs and seasons. There is no way one can say, well it takes light this amount of years to reach us so that day took that many years to pass after reading the verses we have already read and interpreted. Time was the first thing God created in this universe, it is by that time we must interpret the rest of the creation account.

Gen 1 20-23 20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Ah! Life at last! So, now the waters are teeming with life and birds fly above the earth, within 24 hour period. Again we see that God created these things according to their kinds, within 24 hours, and that no evolution was involved. That means He created little minnows and halibut (mmm) and all those different kinds of fish and birdies. They did not evolve. Why you ask? Because fish, and water mammals, and all the sea creatures dwelt at the same time. There are no land animals. None. at all. So there was no land animals to evolve into birds. Or are you going to tell me, that birds evolved from fish? In 24 hours? Evolution is taking a serious spanking here. Bad evolution bad! No din din for you! Now go to your room, oh wait never mind..you don't exist.

the fifth day. 24 hours. one day one night.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:24-31;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26a)] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


The sixth day is a doozie! Now we have animals, according to their kinds. Each one different and unique to another, but all resembling the same base foundation. A true testament to design!


Now we have Humans! weeeeeeee! Here we are, our moment to shine! God created us from dirt, so that right there excludes evolution. God gave us dominion over the land and animals, we are not an animal, that excludes evolution. God Created us the most unique thing in the universe. We are special, and we are blessed by God, made in His image.


Now, after all this, God once again relinquishes a part of His sustaining power over life,allowing it some autonomy. God gives us plants to eat, and fruit to eat. Vegetarians. Yea, life really evolved from a bunch of vegetarians. there really was loads of death before this moment, lots of disease and pain and things eating each other! All those things that would happen in millions of years. I think not. This beautiful day proves that there was no death, there was no millions of years of evolution, there was no survival of the fittest, there was no sin. There was only God, creating life, the universe and everything, in a way that was very good, and awesome. We are beautifully made.


The sixth day, another very good day, another very good 24 hours. God rules, God is awesome, God is all powerful. Thank God for creating us!

Gen 2 1-3 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%202:1-3;&version=31;#fen-NIV-33a)] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done

Phew, the day of rest. The seventh day. This is the bullet to the millions of years theory. God rests here, on this day. The seventh day, after day 1-6. Everything is made, fishies swim in the sea, birdies fly in the air, creepy crawlies creepy crawl, animals frollick around eating plants, dinosaurs stomp loudly through fields of grain, eating fruits and veggies. And humans, humans do what humans do, they live, eat and love God. Perfect and sinless. Here is the kicker, how can the seventh day, which is described exactly like day 1-6, be millions of years with Adam and Eve? They did not have sons and daughters and did not populate the earth in that time. Millions of years was impossible, with the reading of all these verses. they didn't populate on the 6th day after God told them to, so the sixth day certainly could not have been millions of years. So to, the seventh day could not as well. It simply was no time longer then 24 hours.

In closing part one, God created life the universe and everything in 6 24 hour period days. Reading scripture is so clear on this, it is so clear of the power of God, the majesty and awe inspiring way in which He works, and that Genesis was written in a historical fashion, so a literal interpretation we must take, and taking it in such a way, we must concede that days, by virtue of evening and morning, were 24 hours. It is also clear that God did not use evolution to create us, it was also clear that there was no death and suffering, that all life was sustained through God's power, and that when He let go of some of that control, everything and everyone (all of two people) were vegetarians.

Friends, meditate on the scripture, pray to God for understanding in this, while you read, and see the absolute clear message given to us by God. That we were fearfully and wonderfully made in 6 days time.

[kuboes1831]

Part one:

Bare with me, as I take you on a ride through The first chapter of Genesis. I am going to kill two birds with one stone here. The birds are that God created life using evolution, and that the days mentioned in Genesis do not consist of 24 hour periods, but thousands,millions or billions of years. The stone being a literal read of Genesis chapter 1 and some of chapter 2.

Buckle up, here we go. :lol:

Gen 1. 1-2 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The first thing that is important to consider, is that God is in the universe as we know it. He is no longer dwelling in His spiritual realm, but existing within the confines of the universe. This is proved by the fact that He is hovering over the waters of the earth.

As of right now, no telling how long God hovered, because no time existed until the next few verses. So it is moot to even talk about how long He was there.

Gen 1 3-5 And God said, " Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning- the first day.

So, now we get to the part where the tone for the rest of creation is set. These verses above, show that the first thing on God's mind was to create time. He created light to contrast the darkness, and separated them. Now, remember from the first verses, it showed that God was within the earth, not in his own "space", wherever that may be. He was in the construction zone, and now He was creating the orderly rules that zone were to follow.
There was evening, and there was morning, by saying this, it shows time passed..there was evening, then morning, so it was not static, we have the the first universal day. This cannot in any way be seen as anything but 24 hour days, for that is how the rules are right now within the earth's framework. He created time for us, and it hasn't changed since. Evening, then morning, the first day.
Let us move on.

Gen 1 6-8 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning-the second day.

OK, now the earth had water and sky. Nothing really to add here except I don't think it took to long to separate the two spaces. He separated the red sea in a blink of an eye, therefore no reason at all to think it took millions of years to separate water here. With the principle already stated, we have the second day that has passed. A short day, a short night, we call it 12 hours each, 24 hours total. No life yet. Moving on.

Gen 1 9-13 And God said, " Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters He called "seas." And God saw that is was good.
Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their kinds." And it was so.
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.

Still with me? Ok, God did a few things this day, he made seas and land. Then he created vegetation according to their kinds. The fact that he created them to their kinds is the first evidence we have that evolution was not in existence here. Besides the facts that I already stated about time, and that plants couldn't evolve in 24 hours, the passage is clear that God created each and every kind of vegetation, trees and plants. The plants didn't evolve here, they were created separately according to what they were. God did not create one little microbe and all the plants sprouted from it after millions of years, for one there was only 24 hours in that day, for two he created them with seeds and what fruit to bear.
It was part of a pre-planned blue print of the universe. What tree will bear what fruit. There is no principle of trees forming fruit based on a slow evolution or even speciation. They were there, completely and fully formed with exactly what they were supposed to have according to their various kinds.
Another compelling point is that there existed plants on land under water and land that was separated from water. There is no reconciliation for this, that some how the progeny of water based plants spread across dry land, or vise versa.
No life yet.

(note: I was manually typing verses from my bible, now I am just copying and pasting from an on line bible of the same version to save time.) Gen 1 14-19 14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Now, this is interesting. First, there was light without the use of the sun and stars. I can only give my best guess on how there was light without such things, and that is that it was sustained by God. This is not far fetched as in verses we will touch upon soon, He does the same thing for life until he gets around to creating food.
Here though, we see that He gives up this sustaining light so that the universe can govern time itself, instead of his power. This is more proof that the days are 24 hour days not millions of years. For now there is a specific sunrise and sunset, being the fourth day. The world is quickly becoming autonomous, as autonomous as God allows it to be that is. Now the time system is fully revealed. Now not only are there days, but years and seasons.
I will not touch upon the astronomy of how stars were created or used. Using scripture alone, we see that the stars had to be created within a 24 hour period, therefore the light from such stars were readily available to the earth, to illuminate and to show signs and seasons. There is no way one can say, well it takes light this amount of years to reach us so that day took that many years to pass after reading the verses we have already read and interpreted. Time was the first thing God created in this universe, it is by that time we must interpret the rest of the creation account.

Gen 1 20-23 20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Ah! Life at last! So, now the waters are teeming with life and birds fly above the earth, within 24 hour period. Again we see that God created these things according to their kinds, within 24 hours, and that no evolution was involved. That means He created little minnows and halibut (mmm) and all those different kinds of fish and birdies. They did not evolve. Why you ask? Because fish, and water mammals, and all the sea creatures dwelt at the same time. There are no land animals. None. at all. So there was no land animals to evolve into birds. Or are you going to tell me, that birds evolved from fish? In 24 hours? Evolution is taking a serious spanking here. Bad evolution bad! No din din for you! Now go to your room, oh wait never mind..you don't exist.

the fifth day. 24 hours. one day one night.

24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%201:24-31;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26a)] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.


The sixth day is a doozie! Now we have animals, according to their kinds. Each one different and unique to another, but all resembling the same base foundation. A true testament to design!


Now we have Humans! weeeeeeee! Here we are, our moment to shine! God created us from dirt, so that right there excludes evolution. God gave us dominion over the land and animals, we are not an animal, that excludes evolution. God Created us the most unique thing in the universe. We are special, and we are blessed by God, made in His image.


Now, after all this, God once again relinquishes a part of His sustaining power over life,allowing it some autonomy. God gives us plants to eat, and fruit to eat. Vegetarians. Yea, life really evolved from a bunch of vegetarians. there really was loads of death before this moment, lots of disease and pain and things eating each other! All those things that would happen in millions of years. I think not. This beautiful day proves that there was no death, there was no millions of years of evolution, there was no survival of the fittest, there was no sin. There was only God, creating life, the universe and everything, in a way that was very good, and awesome. We are beautifully made.


The sixth day, another very good day, another very good 24 hours. God rules, God is awesome, God is all powerful. Thank God for creating us!

Gen 2 1-3 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis%202:1-3;&version=31;#fen-NIV-33a)] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done

Phew, the day of rest. The seventh day. This is the bullet to the millions of years theory. God rests here, on this day. The seventh day, after day 1-6. Everything is made, fishies swim in the sea, birdies fly in the air, creepy crawlies creepy crawl, animals frollick around eating plants, dinosaurs stomp loudly through fields of grain, eating fruits and veggies. And humans, humans do what humans do, they live, eat and love God. Perfect and sinless. Here is the kicker, how can the seventh day, which is described exactly like day 1-6, be millions of years with Adam and Eve? They did not have sons and daughters and did not populate the earth in that time. Millions of years was impossible, with the reading of all these verses. they didn't populate on the 6th day after God told them to, so the sixth day certainly could not have been millions of years. So to, the seventh day could not as well. It simply was no time longer then 24 hours.

In closing part one, God created life the universe and everything in 6 24 hour period days. Reading scripture is so clear on this, it is so clear of the power of God, the majesty and awe inspiring way in which He works, and that Genesis was written in a historical fashion, so a literal interpretation we must take, and taking it in such a way, we must concede that days, by virtue of evening and morning, were 24 hours. It is also clear that God did not use evolution to create us, it was also clear that there was no death and suffering, that all life was sustained through God's power, and that when He let go of some of that control, everything and everyone (all of two people) were vegetarians.

Friends, meditate on the scripture, pray to God for understanding in this, while you read, and see the absolute clear message given to us by God. That we were fearfully and wonderfully made in 6 days time.

I will agree to this if you accept that Exodus 20 vs4 literally teaches a flat earth.

[Constantine]

I am a Theistic Evolutionist. I believe the Bible to be divinely Inspired, and I believe Genesis to be consistent with biological evolution and the mainstream scientific view of natural history. Let me show you where you've overlooked somethings.

So, now we get to the part where the tone for the rest of creation is set. These verses above, show that the first thing on God's mind was to create time. He created light to contrast the darkness, and separated them. Now, remember from the first verses, it showed that God was within the earth, not in his own "space", wherever that may be. He was in the construction zone, and now He was creating the orderly rules that zone were to follow.
There was evening, and there was morning, by saying this, it shows time passed..there was evening, then morning, so it was not static, we have the the first universal day. This cannot in any way be seen as anything but 24 hour days, for that is how the rules are right now within the earth's framework. He created time for us, and it hasn't changed since. Evening, then morning, the first day.
Let us move on.

How do you know how long a day was back then? Was the earth's rotation the same as it is now, before the sun existed? How can you know with certainty that a "day" that existed before stars was really a 24 hour period? What evidence do you have for this dogmatic claim?


Still with me? Ok, God did a few things this day, he made seas and land. Then he created vegetation according to their kinds. The fact that he created them to their kinds is the first evidence we have that evolution was not in existence here.

Lets go back to the text. From your quote:

Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their kinds." And it was so.

Here God is commanding the earth to bring forth life. He is not "poofing" plants into existence, he is using an indirect and natural means to create plants. Otherwise, why the explicit statement that it was the "land" that produced plants?

No life yet.

Um ya.... plants are lifeforms. Hoping this was a typo.

I will not touch upon the astronomy of how stars were created or used. Using scripture alone, we see that the stars had to be created within a 24 hour period, therefore the light from such stars were readily available to the earth, to illuminate and to show signs and seasons. There is no way one can say, well it takes light this amount of years to reach us so that day took that many years to pass after reading the verses we have already read and interpreted. Time was the first thing God created in this universe, it is by that time we must interpret the rest of the creation account.

So then, how did the light from stars thousands of lightyears away get here? Did light travel faster then? Was it created "in transit"? Or do you adhere to the "white hole" cosmology of Humphry? It is a HUGE question that needs an answer.

Ah! Life at last!....

Yeah it was kinda already there with the plants. Not to mention the countless numbers of microorganisms that would have to be there to support plant life. Why does Genesis, if it is suppose to be literal, not mention the creation of bacteria? They are very important....why are they left out?


The sixth day is a doozie! Now we have animals, according to their kinds. Each one different and unique to another, but all resembling the same base foundation. A true testament to design!

Actually lets go back to the text:

And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds:

There is that pesky phrase again. Why is it there if not to convey the truth that God used indirect and natural means of creation to create life on earth? Why the explicit statement of indirect creation? Could it be, that perhaps God is trying to tell us that he didn't "poof" everything into existence? But instead made His Creation self-suficient and capable of producing life as He saw fit?

Another point about Genesis:

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Does God have an image? Of course not. So then, how were we literally created in God's image? We weren't. We were created in his spiritual image. Here is an excellent example of a metaphor in the height of the Creation account.

Now we have Humans! weeeeeeee! Here we are, our moment to shine! God created us from dirt, so that right there excludes evolution. God gave us dominion over the land and animals, we are not an animal, that excludes evolution. God Created us the most unique thing in the universe. We are special, and we are blessed by God, made in His image.

Actually Genesis 1 doesn't mention anything about us being made from dirt. Thats the Eden story. :wink: However, the idea of our bodies being made of dust is right in line with what we know from science. The carbon and other compenents of our bodies were made in the interior of stars. When those stars exploded the elements were released as stardust. We are made of dust, star dust.

Again, if Genesis is literal, then what is God's image? Does he have a body with four limbs? Eeven YEC's must admit that it is a metaphor or atleast a symbol of our spiritual nature...not our physical one.

About death. Are you sure there was no physical death before the Fall? If the fall meant physical, not just spiritual death then God lied when He said to Adam:

except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
(Gensis 2:17)

Yet Adam lived on after the Fall, according to the text, for several centuries. So it seems that the death that entered Creation with the Fall was not physical, but strictly spiritual.

My view on interpreting Genesis is the Framework view. I'll discuss that if you would like but my post is already very lengthy as it is.

[quote]
I will agree to this if you accept that Exodus 20 vs4 literally teaches a flat earth.

kuboes1831, that is a very good point and I am interested to see how "thedon" responds.

[Jack777]

Constantine wrote,

" Does God have an image? Of course not. "

Really?

[Barry Desborough]

Gen 1. 1-2 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The first thing that is important to consider, is that God is in the universe as we know it. He is no longer dwelling in His spiritual realm, but existing within the confines of the universe. This is proved by the fact that He is hovering over the waters of the earth.

In what sense do you use the word 'proved'?

[Darth Executor]

Before I read all that is there any science in it or just subjective opinion about which interpretation of Genesis is true?

[Thedonhopeless]

I am a Theistic Evolutionist. I believe the Bible to be divinely Inspired, and I believe Genesis to be consistent with biological evolution and the mainstream scientific view of natural history. Let me show you where you've overlooked somethings.

k



How do you know how long a day was back then? Was the earth's rotation the same as it is now, before the sun existed? How can you know with certainty that a "day" that existed before stars was really a 24 hour period? What evidence do you have for this dogmatic claim?

I thought I explained how the bible comes up with 24 hour periods. The first thing God did was create light in the darkness, then time passed, it was not static, an evening and a morning. time passed within the scope of the new laws crated for this universe. The first day. God was creating the order and universe with rules, rules that we still follow today. regardless of the fact that there was yet any sun, or stars or moon, it is clear that time passed, so it is a moot point. God sustained the light himself, there is no other interpretation available from the text at all.
God created time as we know it, he created the time system at the moment when this universe saw its first evening and day. Tada, time.



Here God is commanding the earth to bring forth life. He is not "poofing" plants into existence, he is using an indirect and natural means to create plants. Otherwise, why the explicit statement that it was the "land" that produced plants?

Remember that AFTER God created these things, then he gives the command to " be fruitful and increase in number". This is after He fills the water and the air! This is irrefutable proof that evolution was not a process God used to create life, because life was created before they were even commanded to reproduce!

Just as God created adam from dust, from the land, so he created animals. The fact that he created animals, within 24 hours as the scriptures are clear about, with their various kinds, tells us He created them individual and without a long process of evolution.
From the land is an important statement, because it shows we humans and animals are made of the same basic substance of the land. That is how the land can benefit from animals and vise versa.
It is harmonious, characters must blend in seamlessly with their environments. We would be some weird people if we were not compatible with the earth.

There is a separation of these things that are created..water life, flying life, land life. They are all separate, and created at different times. This also shows they are not one large system of reproduction, but independent kinds of life forms.



Um ya.... plants are lifeforms. Hoping this was a typo.

They have no souls, they do not think, they are brainless. They are not life forms. They were created as a reproducible fuel, not life.



So then, how did the light from stars thousands of light years away get here? Did light travel faster then? Was it created "in transit"? Or do you adhere to the "white hole" cosmology of Humphry? It is a HUGE question that needs an answer.

God placed stars for signs and seasons, this clearly shows that they were readily available to witness, or else they would not serve the purpose intended. So pick your poison how God managed this. It is, however, clear that they were there, and based on the principle of 24 hour periods, they were there pretty quickly.



Yeah it was kinda already there with the plants. Not to mention the countless numbers of microorganisms that would have to be there to support plant life. Why does Genesis, if it is suppose to be literal, not mention the creation of bacteria? They are very important....why are they left out?

There is no reason to think that living microorgs were not created as well in the water when God populated the water or as well when God created plants.. God created all things seen and unseen, no matter how minute, if you deny this, well go elsewhere because this part of the website is for theists only.
So there is no reason to think that God did not create microorgs, in the time he created other things.
The definition of "alive" i go by is the principle God uses when addressing things that have souls and can "die". Plants look as if they die to us, but this is not so according to biblical principles. I'm pretty sure this goes for microorgs as well.
There can be an argument that microorganisms are like plants, but do not serve as "food" but mindless reproducing workers instead. they fill the air and land and water, working endlessly doing many tasks.



There is that pesky phrase again. Why is it there if not to convey the truth that God used indirect and natural means of creation to create life on earth? Why the explicit statement of indirect creation? Could it be, that perhaps God is trying to tell us that he didn't "poof" everything into existence? But instead made His Creation self-sufficient and capable of producing life as He saw fit?

We have to look elsewhere for meaning, what it meant when He said " Let there be.." and that is when God created us from dust, from the land. He gave us a sneak peek exactly how He formed us special, with care and his own life force. He breathed life into us. This little peak later shows the principle in how He creates. Because remember, before an elaboration, he said "let there be humans..." The elaboration of "let there be.." is how he made us from dust. From the land. We are made compatible with His previous work of building the earth. We are harmoniously configured to live here seamlessly, this is why animals and humans and plants come "from the land"
this in no way shows that he used drawn out systems of evolution. There is plenty of proof as I am stating that no evolution was involved or could have been involved.




Does God have an image? Of course not. So then, how were we literally created in God's image? We weren't. We were created in his spiritual image. Here is an excellent example of a metaphor in the height of the Creation account.

This does not mean we can't take Genesis literally, it only means within the literal confines of the historical writings, there were certain verbiage used. When He made us in His image, this image is by nature, in his nature of knowing and having autonomous thinking. That is a literal use of portraying something. It can literally mean a physical image or a metaphysical image. There is no contradictions here.



Actually Genesis 1 doesn't mention anything about us being made from dirt. Thats the Eden story. :wink: However, the idea of our bodies being made of dust is right in line with what we know from science. The carbon and other components of our bodies were made in the interior of stars. When those stars exploded the elements were released as stardust. We are made of dust, star dust.

I don't believe that for a second, nor does the scriptures say this. From dust we were made, and to dust we will return, into the infinite that is the essence of "land", the creation of this worldly place.
you take many things here to convienanatly make your little theory work, like placing a big bang into scriptures. Guess what, the universe and earth already existed in Genesis 1:1, so there is no reason at all to think, or even try to think, how this was done. It is not written, it is not observable, it is not testable.
however, the eye witness account of God in scriptures is plenty to go by when dealing with specific creations that we know for sure of.

Again, if Genesis is literal, then what is God's image? Does he have a body with four limbs? Eeven YEC's must admit that it is a metaphor or atleast a symbol of our spiritual nature...not our physical one.

If God's image is spiritual, or a physical image like Jesus matters not, either interpretation does not weaken a literal reading of Genesis. We were literally created in his spiritual image or literally created in his physical image.

About death. Are you sure there was no physical death before the Fall? If the fall meant physical, not just spiritual death then God lied when He said to Adam:

except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."
(Gensis 2:17)


I will touch upon this in part 2. Part 1 touched upon the creation account and how it disproves evolution and long time days, part 2 will deal with how the fall of man disprove evolution, and that there really was no death before adams sin. So forgive me if I do not answer this right now.

Yet Adam lived on after the Fall, according to the text, for several centuries. So it seems that the death that entered Creation with the Fall was not physical, but strictly spiritual.

again, I will touch upon this in part 2, which will be called, the fall of man proves evolution was not used by God to create life.

My view on interpreting Genesis is the Framework view. I'll discuss that if you would like but my post is already very lengthy as it is.

No problem, it is long lol, took me forever to answer each point. But I am always ready to here opposing views, so whenever you feel like posting it I will read.

[Thedonhopeless]

I will agree to this if you accept that Exodus 20 vs4 literally teaches a flat earth.

I don't understand how exodus 20:4 even hints at a flat earth? Please enlighten me on this so I can better answer you.

[Thedonhopeless]

In what sense do you use the word 'proved'?

That it shows it to be true? Whatever prove means. It says He floats on the surface of the waters. This shows He is there physically.

[Thedonhopeless]

Before I read all that is there any science in it or just subjective opinion about which interpretation of Genesis is true?

For the scope of this article, I am only using scripture. Science does not supercede the word of God, it only compliments it, proves it, and is 100% harmonious with the creation account. However, I am not defending that particular claim in this thread.

[technomage]

Genesis interpretation. Nothing to see here, move along....

[Thedonhopeless]

Genesis interpretation. Nothing to see here, move along....

Uhm, I guess thats true if you don't believe the bible, or have no care for the subject matter..then I would ask why would you state the obvious, and my only conclusion is that you are beeing mean.

[technomage]

Uhm, I guess thats true if you don't believe the bible, or have no care for the subject matter..then I would ask why would you state the obvious, and my only conclusion is that you are beeing mean.
The statement was in reply to Darth's question of whether or not this dealt with science, or "just subjective opinion about which interpretation of Genesis is true?" I answered him succinctly.

[wfaber]

So then, how did the light from stars thousands of lightyears away get here? Did light travel faster then? Was it created "in transit"? Or do you adhere to the "white hole" cosmology of Humphry? It is a HUGE question that needs an answer.
Could you explain what you meant by "cosmology of Humphry"?

I admit that I have problems with both sides of this issue. And being an astronomy enthusiast, I sometimes wonder if, looking at the milky way galaxy, I am looking at actual stars or an illusion. As I mentioned in another post some time ago, we don't see stars popping into existence 6,000 light years away.

[technomage]

Could you explain what you meant by "cosmology of Humphry"?

Dr Russell Humphreys, of the Creation Research Society.

[wfaber]

Dr Russell Humphreys, of the Creation Research Society.


That tells me enough. I may have problems taking a position on the issue, but some of the logic used by ICR is far fetched.

[HRG_new]

Part one:

Bare with me, as I take you on a ride through The first chapter of Genesis. I am going to kill two birds with one stone here. The birds are that God created life using evolution, and that the days mentioned in Genesis do not consist of 24 hour periods, but thousands,millions or billions of years. The stone being a literal read of Genesis chapter 1 and some of chapter 2.

The only dead bird around is the assumption that a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 has anything to do with reality.

But you did not kill that bird. It has been dead for years.

[Constantine]

Constantine wrote,

" Does God have an image? Of course not. "

Really?

Sorry Jack, I was not as clear as I should have been. What I meant was that God does not have a physical image. Not until Jesus' birth that is. But Genesis was written long before that, so at the time there was no physical image of what God looks like.


I thought I explained how the bible comes up with 24 hour periods. The first thing God did was create light in the darkness, then time passed, it was not static, an evening and a morning. time passed within the scope of the new laws crated for this universe. The first day. God was creating the order and universe with rules, rules that we still follow today. regardless of the fact that there was yet any sun, or stars or moon, it is clear that time passed, so it is a moot point. God sustained the light himself, there is no other interpretation available from the text at all.
God created time as we know it, he created the time system at the moment when this universe saw its first evening and day. Tada, time.

My point was that the Bible doesn't give us a definate time period for any "days". Yes it says evening and night, but these were clearly not the normal days considering three of them happened before the sun was created. So saying that those "days" are the exact same length, down to the minute, of modern days is a bit of a stretch and is not supported by the text. Also consider that days and nights throughout the year are not always 24 hours. In the winter, the nights are longer...in the summer the days are longer. So to immediately conclude that "creation days" are equal to 24 hours when a "day" (meaning the amount of time the sun is out) here on earth can change according to location and season. So then to conclude that the "night" and the "day" of creation days were 12 hour periods is completely arbitrary.

In modern times we record a "day" as 24 hours. But before clocks, you could only go by the amount of time the sun stayed in the sky. So again I say it is arbitrary to assign exactly 24 hours to each creation day.

Remember that AFTER God created these things, then he gives the command to " be fruitful and increase in number". This is after He fills the water and the air!

I am talking about the physical origin of the vegetation and the land animals. They were "brought forth" from the earth. It did not say God molded them like clay from the dust of the earth. Genesis clearly states that God commanded the earth to bring forth life. I'm not saying this "proves" that Genesis teaches what modern science calls biological evolution. What I am saying is that Genesis teaches that God used natural means to create life. That God's creation was capable of producing life. And that is directly in line with theistic evolution.

This is irrefutable proof that evolution was not a process God used to create life, because life was created before they were even commanded to reproduce!

After their origin, it is not inconsistent for God to command the animals to be fruitful and multiply. Once the first animals were created through nature, there is no problem with God telling them to reproduce. Yes, for evolution to work they must already be reproducing, but once they reached what we would call an animal...God can command them to reproduce in order to fill the earth.


They have no souls, they do not think, they are brainless. They are not life forms. They were created as a reproducible fuel, not life.

You might want to consult a biology textbook for the definition of life. Plants undoubtedly fit.

God placed stars for signs and seasons, this clearly shows that they were readily available to witness, or else they would not serve the purpose intended. So pick your poison how God managed this. It is, however, clear that they were there, and based on the principle of 24 hour periods, they were there pretty quickly

I'm not going to play "go fish" for YEC theories. As a former YEC I've done that many times before. I was asking what you personally believe regarding starlight. So, which is your (ironically termed) "poison"?


This does not mean we can't take Genesis literally, it only means within the literal confines of the historical writings, there were certain verbiage used.

So what you are saying is that in the literal account of Genesis, there are some metaphors. But those metaphors are "literal" metaphors and that makes it all ok. Well, if there is one metaphor...could there not be others? What if the entire creation account is one giant metaphor? I for one do believe Genesis to be historical. So then, could Genesis 1 really be a "literal" metaphor for how God created life and the universe? Not my personal opinion per say, just another idea to float around.

I don't believe that for a second, nor does the scriptures say this. From dust we were made, and to dust we will return, into the infinite that is the essence of "land", the creation of this worldly place.

I was merely pointing out that the Bible and mainstream science are in perfect agreement regarding the fact that human bodies are made of dust. I just mentioned what dust is made of.

you take many things here to convienanatly make your little theory work

Well then If that is true, I ain't the only one :wink:

like placing a big bang into scriptures. Guess what, the universe and earth already existed in Genesis 1:1, so there is no reason at all to think, or even try to think, how this was done

Um, I have to disagree. Genesis 1:1 states:

In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth

Yup. God created the heavens and the earth. God can't create something that already exists. And why is it unacceptable to ask how God created?

It is not written, it is not observable, it is not testable.
however, the eye witness account of God in scriptures is plenty to go by when dealing with specific creations that we know for sure of.

It may not be written, but it is observable and it is testable. Astronomers can "see" the microwave background radiation that tells us about the Big Bang. We can literally see early Galaxies as they formed billions of years ago. So denying that we can observe the distant past in the universe is rather odd.

I will touch upon this in part 2. Part 1 touched upon the creation account and how it disproves evolution and long time days, part 2 will deal with how the fall of man disprove evolution, and that there really was no death before adams sin. So forgive me if I do not answer this right now.

Fair enough. Sticking to one topic at a time is probably a wise idea.

I understand that here in cosmogony the discussion is mainly theological. But what about the scientific considerations? Are we just to sit here and read Genesis, then decide that our fallible human interpretation of Genesis is 100% correct and never consult outside sources? What about the opinions of the Early Fathers of the Church? What did they have to say and should we listen to them? Would it surprise you to know that a great many of them did not subscribe to a YEC interpretation?

Maybe I'll start a thread about my view on interpreting Genesis witht he Framework idea. But in the meantime let me clarify my own beliefs so we can avoid misunderstandings. From Genesis, the theological truths that I believe and that you probably will mostly agree with are:

1. That the universe is finite and had a begining. And that God is the creator of the universe.

2. No matter how man's body got here, God specially created man's immortal soul.

3. Whether the Eden story is literal or symbollic, there really was an Adam and Eve and there really was a historical Fall.

Those are beliefs I hold and I believe are vital to Christian theology. So in your response, please keep in mind that I believe the above statements so we can have a better idea on where we agree and disagree. That way we can have a more productive dialog. Also thank you, Thedon, for your civility in your reply.

[JimmieBlue]

The birds are that God created life using evolution

Once a YEC, I’ve been sitting on the fence regarding this issue for quite some time.

I can now say that it is probable that God could have used evolution as a viable tool in the Creation Process.


I have no doubt that God could have spoken everything into existence all at once – or in six days, however, IMO (1) Observable evidence does not support this and (2) The text infers indirect process (“Let there be…” / “Let the land produce vegetation…” / “Let the land produce living creatures…”e.t.c.).

I believe that God can and does directly intervene in the natural world in a supernatural way, (the raising of Lazarus from the dead and other miracles) but IMHO, the theme here and also repeated throughout the Bible is that God uses agents in the progressive accomplishment of His Plans be they human (prophets, rulers, e.t.c.), spiritual (angles) or natural (laws of nature).

I would therefore say that evolution is highly probable, and does not diminish the Deity, Power and Authority of God.

[bigsplit]

First, let's think of the time and culture in which Genesis was written. How many pages do you think it would have taken for evolution to be explained to a culture that did not even know what a molecule or gene was? Suppose that the author of Genesis had a vision or dream of the entire process of creation, how do you think he would describe it? Do you think he might break it down into sceens or some chronology of events that people of his time might understand....like say days or sceens in a movie?

"The earth was void and without form", what does that mean? I understand that to mean that the earth as in the planet did not exist at all.

It just amazes me that intelligent people would believe that God is some sort of Great Merlin in the sky.....He is more like a great Einstein in the sky.

[Jugulum]

First, let's think of the time and culture in which Genesis was written. How many pages do you think it would have taken for evolution to be explained to a culture that did not even know what a molecule or gene was?Hmm...

"And lo, even as a child may differ from his parent, so did the animals of each generation differ from theirs. And the scales of creeping things did grow thin and protrude from their bodies, and change into feathers, and their arms did stretch wide, and the LORD did lift them up to soar in the very heavens."

No?

[runtmc2jc]

thedonhopeless;
i find nowhere in the bible the duration of a 'day' of creation. between the opening and closing of each 'day' i'm willing to accept anything from a split-second to an era. this is especially so the first several 'days' where the means to measure time as given by G-d (celestial bodies) weren't even in existance yet. to assume 24 hours is reading way too much into the text. and where did you get the idea that genesis ch. 1 is so easy to understand/interpret. i find it one of the most compelling, difficult passages in scripture.