OK is it just me or did this judge step off the trail

[Durthorin]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

[MorganJ]

What was that first amendment thingy again? Oh never mind it wasn't important. Forget it.

[Cynic Sage]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

First of all, I'd like to say I'm not a pluralist.

Secondly, yeah, that Judge was way off. It is a parent's right to teach their beliefs to their children.

[Piebald]

Parents should have the right to teach their children any religion they choose, regardless of what Judge Wackyjack has to say about it.

[Cyrus Johnson]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481


Now that's what I call judicial activism.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

And people think I am freaking crazy....

[jennio]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050526/NEWS01/505260481

yeah. this judge has gone too far.

[Darth Executor]

And people think I am freaking crazy....

You are. You find a few obscure lunatics once in a while and try to convince people it's mainstream thought.

[Cynic Sage]

You are. You find a few obscure lunatics once in a while and try to convince people it's mainstream thought.

Are you talking about the material CuMho presents about xtians, or is it the obscure CuMhorrigan that is falsely being presented as a mainstream Wiccan.:lol:

[jason]

This is no more reasonable than the judge that said an ex-lesbian could not take her child to any "homophobic" churches because her "partner" didn't want the child being exposed to that.

I guess one is as reasonable as the other.

I don't think either are reasonable actually.

Jason

[Darth Executor]

Are you talking about the material CuMho presents about xtians, or is it the obscure CuMhorrigan that is falsely being presented as a mainstream Wiccan.:lol:

Does it really matter?

[Meh_Gerbil]

If the parents were burned at the stake this wouldn't be an issue.

[Mark_S]

:haha:

If the parents were burned at the stake this wouldn't be an issue.

That was good....

Oh and what everybody else said. Looks to me like the judge was way out of bounds.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

You are. You find a few obscure lunatics once in a while and try to convince people it's mainstream thought.
I dunno the more you folk scream you are not out to form a theocracy we run across incidents like THIS that tells me that that is where this country is headed.
I am not expecting my beliefs to be accepted as mainstream thought within wicca, but you would be suprised how many people are scared witless by the tone the government is taking with all the dominionist fundies running for public office or being appointed.
It is only a matter of time before the US becomes "Jesus-Land".

[Cynic Sage]

I dunno the more you folk scream you are not out to form a theocracy we run across incidents like THIS that tells me that that is where this country is headed.
I am not expecting my beliefs to be accepted as mainstream thought within wicca, but you would be suprised how many people are scared witless by the tone the government is taking with all the dominionist fundies running for public office or being appointed.
It is only a matter of time before the US becomes "Jesus-Land".

I wonder what kind of rides they've got at "Jesus Land"?

[Piebald]

The Holy Roller Coaster
It's a Doomed World After All
Apostates of the Carribean
The Enchanted Confessional
Mr. Bonhoeffer's Wild Ride

[Meh_Gerbil]

The Holy Roller Coaster
It's a Doomed World After All
Apostates of the Carribean
The Enchanted Confessional
Mr. Bonhoeffer's Wild Ride

John the Baptist's Dunking Tank
Noah's Wave Pool (kiddies, be sure to visit the petting zoo)
Blessed Sacrament Snack Shoppe
Snow White and the Seven Deadly Sins
Your Face on the Shroud Picture Gallery ($8.99)

[Darth Executor]

I dunno the more you folk scream you are not out to form a theocracy we run across incidents like THIS that tells me that that is where this country is headed.
I am not expecting my beliefs to be accepted as mainstream thought within wicca, but you would be suprised how many people are scared witless by the tone the government is taking with all the dominionist fundies running for public office or being appointed.
It is only a matter of time before the US becomes "Jesus-Land".

Don't get me wrong, I believe the US is turning into the proverbial "Empire". The problem is, I believe both sides when they say the other is trying to take over. My displeasure comes when you draw opinions like this from a few isolated cases. There are 300 million people in this country. Even a hundred whackos (and I doubt you know of that many personally) is not enough evidence. If you actually looked at some decent studies and made insightful observations about social trends based on reliable statistics then maybe I'll stop dismissing your opinion as anything other than worthless blubbering. And learning a thing or two about history (like the fact that pagans persecuted Christians first and to complain about us doing the same is nothing short of hypocrisy) wouldn't hurt you either.

[lee_merrill]

John the Baptist's Dunking Tank
Noah's Wave Pool (kiddies, be sure to visit the petting zoo)...
Such scandalousishnesses! And after I went just yesterday to consider upgrading my cookery utensils with some Peter Pans...

Blessings,
Lee

[Richbee]

What was that first amendment thingy again? Oh never mind it wasn't important. Forget it.

The original version (of the First Amendment) proposed in the Senate on September 3, 1789, stated,

'Congress shall not make any law establishing any religious denomination.'

Their second version stated,

'Congress shall make no law establishing any particular denomination.'

The third version was very similar,

'Congress shall make no law establishing any particular denomination in preference to others.'

The final version passed on that day declared,

'Congress shall make no law establishing religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'

…According to their records, the word 'religion' was interchangeable with 'denomination.

[Durthorin]

The original version (of the First Amendment) proposed in the Senate on September 3, 1789, stated,

'Congress shall not make any law establishing any religious denomination.'

Their second version stated,

'Congress shall make no law establishing any particular denomination.'

The third version was very similar,

'Congress shall make no law establishing any particular denomination in preference to others.'

The final version passed on that day declared,

'Congress shall make no law establishing religionth or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.'

…According to their records, the word 'religion' was interchangeable with 'denomination.

Actually your example shows they saw religion and denomination as seperate concepts if religion and denomination were interchangable then

"religious denomination.' would be equal to "denominational denomination" Rather silly. What it shows is that they started out.. tightened it down, then extended outward. In a time when the written word was studied, examanined and carefully thought out the use of the word "religion" over the word "denomination" was hardly accidental, since denomination has never been a synonym for religion.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Cu Mhorrigan]

You would be suprised As to how many wackos I know personally.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Don't get me wrong, I believe the US is turning into the proverbial "Empire". The problem is, I believe both sides when they say the other is trying to take over. My displeasure comes when you draw opinions like this from a few isolated cases. There are 300 million people in this country. Even a hundred whackos (and I doubt you know of that many personally) is not enough evidence. If you actually looked at some decent studies and made insightful observations about social trends based on reliable statistics then maybe I'll stop dismissing your opinion as anything other than worthless blubbering. And learning a thing or two about history (like the fact that pagans persecuted Christians first and to complain about us doing the same is nothing short of hypocrisy) wouldn't hurt you either.
So in other words It's okay for you guys to persecute us because We did it to you first?
Gee that sounds Like something Jesus would say..
Oh wait a minute, He didnt, He said "Forgive So that your father in heaven will FORGIVE YOU your trespasses"
"Forgive your brother seventy times Seven times."
"Judge Not Lest YE be judged, the measure you use to judge others shall be used to Judge you."
Doing something to US just because a bunch of testosterone laden Romans Killed your founder and killed Only about 10,000 of your "Church fathers" (A rather small number compared to however many cultures and tribes and people groups the church has destroyed) Is just a pathetic and useless excuse by christians who want to avoid the fact that Jesus would smack them upside the head if He saw them doing half of the nonsense they do in churches.
What is it you folks LOVE to use when you lecture other people?
Oh yes, Two wrongs dont make a right.

[technomage]

Update

Court limit on parents' faith overturned (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050817/BREAK/508170493)

An Indianapolis father can share his Wiccan beliefs and rituals with his 10-year-old son, the state Court of Appeals ruled Wednesday in a unanimous decision upholding parents' rights to share their religion with their children. The court declared that a Marion County judge erred in approving a divorce decree last year that also directed the parents to shelter their son from "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."


I had confidence that this would be the result. I'm just sorry it took so long--and so much effort.

[Meh_Gerbil]

You would be suprised As to how many wackos I know personally.

Somehow I doubt that.
Ya'll tend to group.

:lol:

[Meh_Gerbil]

Update

Court limit on parents' faith overturned (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050817/BREAK/508170493)

An Indianapolis father can share his Wiccan beliefs and rituals with his 10-year-old son, the state Court of Appeals ruled Wednesday in a unanimous decision upholding parents' rights to share their religion with their children. The court declared that a Marion County judge erred in approving a divorce decree last year that also directed the parents to shelter their son from "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."


I had confidence that this would be the result. I'm just sorry it took so long--and so much effort.

The initial judge's ruling is an affront to anyone who wishes to teach their child anything whatsoever. The Christian and the Wiccan both have the same enemy in this case -- that being the type of judge that thinks they can hand down these kinds of lunatic decisions.

[Durthorin]

The initial judge's ruling is an affront to anyone who wishes to teach their child anything whatsoever. The Christian and the Wiccan both have the same enemy in this case -- that being the type of judge that thinks they can hand down these kinds of lunatic decisions.

I still have to wonder at a judge who would make such a decision.. it seems such a basic/foundational concept in law that parents can raise their children as they see fit as to religion. I'm glad it was overturned and expected it as well. I just wonder what he was thinking.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Darth Executor]

Good Stalin you're dumb.

So in other words It's okay for you guys to persecute us because We did it to you first?
Gee that sounds Like something Jesus would say..
Oh wait a minute, He didnt, He said "Forgive So that your father in heaven will FORGIVE YOU your trespasses"
"Forgive your brother seventy times Seven times."
"Judge Not Lest YE be judged, the measure you use to judge others shall be used to Judge you."
Doing something to US just because a bunch of testosterone laden Romans Killed your founder and killed Only about 10,000 of your "Church fathers" (A rather small number compared to however many cultures and tribes and people groups the church has destroyed) Is just a pathetic and useless excuse by christians who want to avoid the fact that Jesus would smack them upside the head if He saw them doing half of the nonsense they do in churches.
What is it you folks LOVE to use when you lecture other people?
Oh yes, Two wrongs dont make a right.


No idiot, it destroys your right to broad brush another religion. If you want to say "You christians are evil because look what you did <insert huge ammount of time here> years ago" then you're admitting you're evil because of what YOUR ancestors did. How stupid do you have to be not to get it?

[Meh_Gerbil]

I still have to wonder at a judge who would make such a decision.. it seems such a basic/foundational concept in law that parents can raise their children as they see fit as to religion. I'm glad it was overturned and expected it as well. I just wonder what he was thinking.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Secularists see the public school system as an institution of brian washing -- as a way to get kids away from the knowledge imparted by the parents and into thinking in government sanctioned ways. For some people, it is frustrating that parents have so much control over their kids.

Frankly, judges who make these kinds of decisions should be hung -- it goes against every grain and fiber of what this country is about.

[Soundsurfr]

You would be suprised As to how many wackos I know personally.

Yeah, there are quite few on my ward too. :wink:

[Soundsurfr]

Secularists see the public school system as an institution of brian washing -- as a way to get kids away from the knowledge imparted by the parents and into thinking in government sanctioned ways.

Horse manure. By the way, I sincerely doubt that this case was the work of a secularist.

For some people, it is frustrating that parents have so much control over their kids.

Like who?

[Meh_Gerbil]

Like who?

The judge in the OP.

*MadGerbil takes a pencil and slowly connects the dots on Soundsurfr's paper*

[MuggleOrSquib]

No idiot, it destroys your right to broad brush another religion. If you want to say "You christians are evil because look what you did <insert huge ammount of time here> years ago" then you're admitting you're evil because of what YOUR ancestors did. How stupid do you have to be not to get it?

Actually, the same pagans who persecuted the early Christians persecuted and nearly wiped out the druids. I know some Celto-Pagans whose antipathy towards Rome nearly exceeds that of Bob Jones, due mainly to the destruction of Brythonic and Gaulic culture, and the slaughter of the druids at Anglesey.

As far as I am aware, there was no persecution of Christians in Britain or Gaul by Celtic/druidic pagans. This was mostly because the pagan Romans had already destroyed the druid heirarchy by the time Christianity had much presence.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

[Meh_Gerbil]

Actually, the same pagans who persecuted the early Christians persecuted and nearly wiped out the druids. I know some Celto-Pagans whose antipathy towards Rome nearly exceeds that of Bob Jones, due mainly to the destruction of Brythonic and Gaulic culture, and the slaughter of the druids at Anglesey.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

People who get bent out of shape over ancient persecutions are people who need to invest a little bit more money in therapy. They are dishonest posers, IMHO.

[Pilgrim]

People who get bent out of shape over ancient persecutions are people who need to invest a little bit more money in therapy. They are dishonest posers, IMHO.
I'll second that.

[Meh_Gerbil]

I'll second that.

Well I'm angry with the Romans as well. They pushed around my ancestors (early germans) and I'm sick of it. I just HATE Italians to this day --- I cannot even hear an Italian name without wanting to twist someone's neck for the evil done to people I didnt know 2,000 years ago.

Sheesh.

Get a doctor already.

[Cynic Sage]

Well I'm angry with the Romans as well. They pushed around my ancestors (early germans) and I'm sick of it. I just HATE Italians to this day --- I cannot even hear an Italian name without wanting to twist someone's neck for the evil done to people I didnt know 2,000 years ago.

Sheesh.

Get a doctor already.

Being of Scottish descent, my ancestors clashed often with those of other nationalities.

English vs. Scots.

Welsh vs. Scots.

Irish vs. Scots.

French vs. Scots.

Italians vs. Scots.

Catholics vs. Scots.

Protestants vs. Scots

Japanese vs. Scots.

Scots vs. Scots.

Batman vs. Scots.

Capcom vs. Scots.

:hehe:

[Meh_Gerbil]

Being of Scottish descent, my ancestors clashed often with those of other nationalities.

English vs. Scots.

Welsh vs. Scots.

Irish vs. Scots.

French vs. Scots.

Italians vs. Scots.

Catholics vs. Scots.

Protestants vs. Scots

Japanese vs. Scots.

Scots vs. Scots.

Batman vs. Scots.

Capcom vs. Scots.

:hehe:

Dude, you should be able to rake in major repreations -- er sp? .. repr.. rep .. dough.

[jrstruthers]

People who get bent out of shape over ancient persecutions are people who need to invest a little bit more money in therapy. They are dishonest posers, IMHO.

Definitely got to agree with the Rodent on this one. Casees of folks slaughtering and repressing others in the name of religion (or any other thing they can justify) go way back. Rather than get all tistd out of shape about a past injustice, we might want to remember these events and TAKE STEPS SO THAT WE DON'T CAUSE THEM TO HAPPEN ANY MORE.

Just because somebody persecuted you first doesn't mean that they might not be ...senstive to trends in your theology or culture that allow the same types of things to go on today (although with slightly less fervor).