Cross vs. Torture stake!

[Krusader]

How great have been the attempts of the Society to abandon the cross as a symbol of Christianity. However, eventually all their silly denials of Christ's cross fall mute in the face of hard, archeological evidence. To see the symbol used by the earliest Christians, read the following article:

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html

PS: bet you won't read this in "Awake."

[razzendahcuben]

How do JW's respond to John 20:25?

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

[Krusader]

How do JW's respond to John 20:25?

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

They just don't reply. As they won't to this thread either. Also, note that one thief was crucified on this left hand on one on his right.

[Darth Executor]

What's the point of denying the cross?

[Sparko]

What's the point of denying the cross?

cuz they want to be different and it gives them something to say we are wrong about?


===
Here is some more info about 1st Century evidence for the use of a cross, and that first century Christians believed that Jesus was God. And it comes NOT from a Christian, but from a pagan who is mocking a Christian!

It shows a grafitti someone drew of a man with a donkey head on a cross, and has the mocking inscription, Alexemos Worships His God!

http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/alex_graffito.htm

[Krusader]

cuz they want to be different and it gives them something to say we are wrong about?


===
Here is some more info about 1st Century evidence for the use of a cross, and that first century Christians believed that Jesus was God. And it comes NOT from a Christian, but from a pagan who is mocking a Christian!

It shows a grafitti someone drew of a man with a donkey head on a cross, and has the mocking inscription, Alexemos Worships His God!

http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/alex_graffito.htm

I checked that site out. This also proves that the early Christians worshipped the crucified Christ as God. Wow, a double wammy for the JWs.

[Tsmith]

They just don't reply. As they won't to this thread either. Also, note that one thief was crucified on this left hand on one on his right.


Not true at all. The answer is simply that scholars do not know how many nails were used, some say three, some say four, others say up to 14. As for the "left hand", the word is simply "left" as in his left side, not necessarily his hand.

[Sparko]

Not true at all. The answer is simply that scholars do not know how many nails were used, some say three, some say four, others say up to 14. As for the "left hand", the word is simply "left" as in his left side, not necessarily his hand.

So why are JW's so adamant that it was not a cross? As we have shown there is great evidence that the Romans DID use crosses in the first century. And the greek word stauros which means stake or pole does not mean that the pole cannot have a cross piece. We speak of poles that have cross beams even today.



The evidence is that Jesus was crucified on a cross.

Here is a pole with a cross piece that we still call a 'pole':

[Tsmith]

So why are JW's so adamant that it was not a cross? As we have shown there is great evidence that the Romans DID use crosses in the first century. And the greek word stauros which means stake or pole does not mean that the pole cannot have a cross piece. We speak of poles that have cross beams even today.



The evidence is that Jesus was crucified on a cross.

Here is a pole with a cross piece that we still call a 'pole':


Well I for one am certainly not dogmatic either way. However, one point that is key is that in execution the person carried the cross peice when killed on a cross, however what Jesus carried and what he died on are not distinguished

[Sparko]

Well I for one am certainly not dogmatic either way. However, one point that is key is that in execution the person carried the cross peice when killed on a cross, however what Jesus carried and what he died on are not distinguished

thanks, that is another point in favor of it really being a cross that Jesus was killed on. If it were a stake, then what was he carrying? The stake would be fixed permanently at the execution site. It must have been the cross piece.

[Krusader]

It's pretty obvious that the cross is shunned by JWs and others because it speaks volumes about grace and vicarious atonement.

Of course, the JWs believe that only the elite "anointed" class (known also as the 144,000) are in the New Covenant anyway. All the others, the Jonadab class, have to earn their right to live through Armageddon by sticking close to the anointed class and following their directives.

How sad!

[Topherlee]

I do not see how a thing that was used to torure and eventually kill someone can be used as a symbol of faith. Many people were put to death on such crosses, stakes or hung on a tree as the bible puts it. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the cross is a symbol of the Christian faith. Nowhere does it say that the cross is Holy.
The Bible clearly indicates that Jesus suffered on the cross. Then why is it held as a symbol of faith?
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Those that preach the cross are foolish; but those who preach the act of the cross and what Jesus accomplished is the power of God.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I do not see how a thing that was used to torure and eventually kill someone can be used as a symbol of faith. Many people were put to death on such crosses, stakes or hung on a tree as the bible puts it. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the cross is a symbol of the Christian faith. Nowhere does it say that the cross is Holy.
The Bible clearly indicates that Jesus suffered on the cross. Then why is it held as a symbol of faith?
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Those that preach the cross are foolish; but those who preach the act of the cross and what Jesus accomplished is the power of God.

WHAT?! Those that preach the cross are foolish? Then why did Paul say that he desired to know nothing save Jesus Christ and him crucified?

Remember the snake in the wilderness? That became a symbol of faith. What the symbol of faith is is that what was meant to be destruction turned into life for us.

[Sparko]

I do not see how a thing that was used to torure and eventually kill someone can be used as a symbol of faith. Many people were put to death on such crosses, stakes or hung on a tree as the bible puts it. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the cross is a symbol of the Christian faith. Nowhere does it say that the cross is Holy.
The Bible clearly indicates that Jesus suffered on the cross. Then why is it held as a symbol of faith?


Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


Looks like you answered your own question Topherlee. The preaching of the cross is foolishness for those who are perishing, but for those who are being saved, it is the power of God.

We hold the cross as a symbol of Christianity because it symbolizes that Jesus defeated death. That is especiallly why the protestant crosses are empty. Because Jesus is no longer on that cross. For those who are being saved it it the power of God, because without Jesus dying on that cross, we would be dead in our sins. But because Jesus did die as a sacrifice in our place, we can be forgiven of our sins through the power of God.

[Topherlee]

If you can agree that the cross was a torture device and was used to eventually painfully kill someone, turn to Deuteronomy 7:26
Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing.

The cross was a thing of destruction, an abomination, a detestable thing. It is not the cross that is the symbol of faith, but the person on the cross and what was accomplished. I think it is bible interpretation that leads one to believe in it. You are a Christian and not a Cross-bearer. Faith should be in Christ.

[Shadow Phoenix]

If you'll check the Torah though, it'll tell you what is an abomination and what isn't. Remember, weapons were kept in the temple. I know there wasn't a temple then, but David when he was fleeing from Saul went to the priests who had the very sword of Goliath that had been used to cut off his own head.

An abomination would be more like Antiochus Epiphanes IV. In that case, you had an altar to Zeus set up and a live pig brought in to be sacrificed.

[Sparko]

Deuteronomy 7:26 is specifically speaking about taking the gold and silver off of idols and bringing them into your house.

The cross is a symbol of Christ's defeat of sin and death. Nothing more. Nothing less. As Crusader's link in the OP shows it was used by first century christians. As you quoted, it was preached by those being saved. The message of the cross is only foolishness to those who are perishing.

Are you perishing Topherlee? Are you a Christian?

[Topherlee]

I see your points, but forgive me if I sound direct. I have been studying the Bible now for several months. But I have also studied the history around the Bible. The cross was first made an idol by the Roman Catholic Church. This is obvious in there rituals. Since then, many religions have departed because of the RCC and ritualistic ways. But they have kept some of the basic fundamentals of their teachings. One is the cross. Todays Christians, as you said, have removed the Body of Christ and termed it a symbol - being no longer an idol. The devil can be cunning, be alerted to his ways. There is a reason why God said to leave, flee from idolatry. Everything has it's beginning.

[Sparko]

I see your points, but forgive me if I sound direct. I have been studying the Bible now for several months. But I have also studied the history around the Bible. The cross was first made an idol by the Roman Catholic Church. This is obvious in there rituals. Since then, many religions have departed because of the RCC and ritualistic ways. But they have kept some of the basic fundamentals of their teachings. One is the cross. Todays Christians, as you said, have removed the Body of Christ and termed it a symbol - being no longer an idol. The devil can be cunning, be alerted to his ways. There is a reason why God said to leave, flee from idolatry. Everything has it's beginning.

If we prayed to the cross or worshipped it, you might have a point. But we don't. The cross is a symbol of what Jesus did for us. It represents his defeat of sin and death.


The devil had nothing to do with the cross being used as a symbol. He hates the thing because he knows that Jesus defeated death and sin upon it. It represents his defeat.

[Shadow Phoenix]

I see your points, but forgive me if I sound direct. I have been studying the Bible now for several months. But I have also studied the history around the Bible. The cross was first made an idol by the Roman Catholic Church. This is obvious in there rituals. Since then, many religions have departed because of the RCC and ritualistic ways. But they have kept some of the basic fundamentals of their teachings. One is the cross. Todays Christians, as you said, have removed the Body of Christ and termed it a symbol - being no longer an idol. The devil can be cunning, be alerted to his ways. There is a reason why God said to leave, flee from idolatry. Everything has it's beginning.

The problem is not the image itself. The problem is the misuse of the image. It was alright for Israel to have the bronze snake with them. It was wrong when they mistook the bronze snake for the one they should be worshipping.

Furthermore, this still would not argue against the main point, that Jesus died on a cross. If you believe he died on a torture stake, and soon images were made of that and some KHs began to worship them, would that change the fact? No.

I wear a cross necklace myself, but I sure don't worship it. It just always reminds me and the people I meet of who I serve and that Christ defeated death.

Now for the same question. Are you perishing?

[Topherlee]

Jesus defeated Satan by dying for his bretheren. Defeat was in death. If Jesus had been beheaded, would a sword or axe be used as a symbol of faith? If Jesus were beaten and whipped to death, would this be a reason to venerate a whip or a club?
I see we have different views on this. All I wish to do is provide a little insight from what I have learned and what the Word has revealed to me.

[Shadow Phoenix]

Jesus defeated Satan by dying for his bretheren. Defeat was in death. If Jesus had been beheaded, would a sword or axe be used as a symbol of faith? If Jesus were beaten and whipped to death, would this be a reason to venerate a whip or a club?
I see we have different views on this. All I wish to do is provide a little insight from what I have learned and what the Word has revealed to me.

Whatever had been used, Jesus was greater than it. That's the joy of it. They thought they were putting to death the author of life. Instead, he ended up defeating that which was used against him. The cross is the reminder of that. It reminds me that though I die, yet I will still live.

Are you perishing?

[Sparko]

Jesus defeated Satan by dying for his bretheren. Defeat was in death.

Well actually the defeat was in the death and RESURRECTION of Jesus. If he had just died, and stayed dead, then he would have defeated nothing. But he came back to life to show us that what he said was true, that he was God and that he had defeated death and sin for us all.


If Jesus had been beheaded, would a sword or axe be used as a symbol of faith? If Jesus were beaten and whipped to death, would this be a reason to venerate a whip or a club?

Well, no, we don't 'venerate' the cross. We worship Jesus. The cross is merely a symbol of what he did and it works as a 'logo' to help us identify and set ourselves apart from the world. If I wear a Dallas Cowboy's hat does that mean I worship the Dallas Cowboy's logo?

But yeah, if Jesus had been beheaded, we might be using a sword or axe as a symbol. Or if he were hung, an empty noose.

The symbol represents how he defeated death and sin. If my dad were killed by a gun, I would probably not go around wearing a gun symbol, but if he had beaten death and resurrected himself I might wear a gun symbol to show he had beaten death.


I see we have different views on this. All I wish to do is provide a little insight from what I have learned and what the Word has revealed to me.

Well Topherlee, keep studying and questioning. That is good. But you did mention that you had been studying for only a few months. Most of us here have been studying for years (and we still have much to learn)

Welcome to theologyweb!

God Bless.

[Krusader]

I do not see how a thing that was used to torure and eventually kill someone can be used as a symbol of faith. Many people were put to death on such crosses, stakes or hung on a tree as the bible puts it. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the cross is a symbol of the Christian faith. Nowhere does it say that the cross is Holy.
The Bible clearly indicates that Jesus suffered on the cross. Then why is it held as a symbol of faith?
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Those that preach the cross are foolish; but those who preach the act of the cross and what Jesus accomplished is the power of God.

Topherlee: Are you in the New Covenant? Is Jesus your Mediator?

[Topherlee]

I will keep studying. This website has helped gain understanding from a different point of view. I appreciate it.
As for a symbol being a remembrance of faith, I will continue to use every breath I take and my family and friends and the word of God as a reminder of what our Lord Jesus has accomplished. God has given us the Bible, I believe this is a greater symbol of faith and understanding.

[nytxn]

It's pretty obvious that the cross is shunned by JWs and others because it speaks volumes about grace and vicarious atonement.

Of course, the JWs believe that only the elite "anointed" class (known also as the 144,000) are in the New Covenant anyway. All the others, the Jonadab class, have to earn their right to live through Armageddon by sticking close to the anointed class and following their directives.

How sad!

Crusader, that speaks volumes about certain denomninations and organizations in 'churchianity' today as well...

How sad indeed...

[nytxn]

Taken from the Amplified version:



Mat 10:38 And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conforming wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also] is not worthy of Me.


Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to be My disciple, let him deny himself [disregard, lose sight of, and forget himself and his own interests] and take up his cross and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying, also].


Mar 8:34 And Jesus called [to Him] the throng with His disciples and said to them, If anyone intends to come after Me, let him deny himself [forget, ignore, disown, and lose sight of himself and his own interests] and take up his cross, and [joining Me as a disciple and siding with My party] follow with Me [continually, cleaving steadfastly to Me].


Luk 9:23 And He said to all, If any person wills to come after Me, let him deny himself [disown himself, forget, lose sight of himself and his own interests, refuse and give up himself] and take up his cross daily and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also].



Anyone wishing to follow Christ must bear their own cross. I don't see how it is 'evil' or 'foolish' to be able to keep something as a daily reminder of how we are supposed to deny ourselves and follow Him. I don't see that as idolatry, as it is ultimately pointing us toward Christ, not away from Him.



Now about the 'crucifix' some use, with an image of Christ on the cross, I'm not a big fan of it. He's ascended into heaven and neither the cross nor the grave was able to hold Him... however, I know that those are my thoughts, and its my conviction about the matter. I would never condemn someone who had a crucifix, instead of a bare cross.

[Topherlee]

Am I any less of Christian because I choose not to wear a symbol of faith? Does this not make me part of the elite class of Christians who choose to do so? Am I not judged by my works? Christ was not resurrected with the cross, only with the scars of it.

Am I speaking volumes or gaining understanding?

There are 144,000 in the book of Revelations that will be chosen to go to heaven. All the others will inherit the earth; on earth as it is in heaven. This is part of the Lords prayer.
Rev 14:1-3, 20:4-6.
Psalms 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. How long is for ever?

[nytxn]

Am I any less of Christian because I choose not to wear a symbol of faith?

Wearing a cross doesn't make someone a 'christian' any more than wearing a watch makes them a jeweler. As a matter of fact, lots of people that 'wear' a cross have no idea how to bear one.

I don't condemn you for not wearing one, so, based on the description I laid out to you above, please don't condemn me for having a cross above my door, so I see it before I leave my home...

[Topherlee]

Luk 9:23 And He said to all, If any person wills to come after Me, let him deny himself [disown himself, forget, lose sight of himself and his own interests, refuse and give up himself] and take up his cross daily and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also].

I can see your interpretation of scripture, but if you really want to take up your cross as Jesus did, don't wear it around your neck. Cut down a tree, bind it into a cross and then carry it. It's pretty heavy. The passage is not literal, it is a lesson.

[Sparko]

Am I any less of Christian because I choose not to wear a symbol of faith? Does this not make me part of the elite class of Christians who choose to do so? Am I not judged by my works? Christ was not resurrected with the cross, only with the scars of it.

well actually, if you don't have Jesus as your savior you will be judged by your works in regards to salvation or damnation. But if you do have Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you will only judged by your works as far as rewards in heaven go. There is no longer any condemnation for those who are in Christ.

Also whether you choose to wear a cross or not means nothing as far as your Christianity goes. I don't go around wearing a cross around my neck, and I don't even have any crosses hanging in my house. I do have a cross necklace made out of nails, but I never wear it. I don't like jewelry much. But your negative reaction to the cross might speak toward your legalism and works oriented faith.

Am I speaking volumes or gaining understanding?


Hopefully we all are gaining in understanding.

There are 144,000 in the book of Revelations that will be chosen to go to heaven. All the others will inherit the earth; on earth as it is in heaven. This is part of the Lords prayer.

Well that is way off of the topic of this thread, and is probably worthy of another thread of it's own, so if you want to discuss the 144,000 then feel welcome to start a thread on it. But suffice to say here that you are wrong about the 144,000.

[Krusader]

Am I any less of Christian because I choose not to wear a symbol of faith? Does this not make me part of the elite class of Christians who choose to do so? Am I not judged by my works? Christ was not resurrected with the cross, only with the scars of it.

Am I speaking volumes or gaining understanding?

There are 144,000 in the book of Revelations that will be chosen to go to heaven. All the others will inherit the earth; on earth as it is in heaven. This is part of the Lords prayer.
Rev 14:1-3, 20:4-6.
Psalms 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever. How long is for ever?

Topherlee: Look at Revelations one more time. The "great crowd" is worshipping God in the temple (naos) in heaven - they are in the same place as the elders.

Also, the 144,000 figure refers to Jews, and specifically mentions the tribes of Israel. How much clearer could the writer get?

As for being part of some "great crowd," according to the Watchtower, only the 144,000 have a Mediator:

'The New Covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The Great Crowd or Other Sheep that is forming today is not in that New Covenant. However, by their associating with the 'Little Flock' of those yet in that covenant they come under the benefits that flow from that New Covenant." WT, 1 Apr. 79, p.31

Pretty clear, isn't it. The Great Crowd is saved through associating with the Anointed. Not saved by Christ! Where on earth does the Bible teach this?

Further saith the Watchtower:

"When the last of these approved spiritual Israelites cease to be "men" because of earthly death and a resurrection to share in the heavenly kingdom, then the mediatoriship of Jesus Christ will cease also." WT, 15 Nov. 1979, 26-27.

And now for the final word on the subject. As a Great Crowd member, you are saved by your "attitude" toward those wheat-like (where do they get these words?) anointed:

"Your attitude towards the wheatlike anointed brothers of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into everlasting cutting-off or receive everlasting life." WT, 1 Aug. 1981, p. 26.

No wonder the cross is banned from the Hall - and the Mediator denied!

[nytxn]

Luk 9:23 And He said to all, If any person wills to come after Me, let him deny himself [disown himself, forget, lose sight of himself and his own interests, refuse and give up himself] and take up his cross daily and follow Me [cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also].

I can see your interpretation of scripture, but if you really want to take up your cross as Jesus did, don't wear it around your neck. Cut down a tree, bind it into a cross and then carry it. It's pretty heavy. The passage is not literal, it is a lesson.

You misunderstand my interpretation, friend.

A) I don't wear a cross.

B) I don't have a problem with someone wearing one.

C) I don't have a problem with someone not wearing one.

D) I have a problem with people taking their personal convictions and applying them to others, like you are doing here.

I take up my cross every day, friend.

When I look at a cross, it reminds me to keep doing it.



I think I've made my points... I'll let y'all get back to it now.

:tongue:

[Shadow Phoenix]

Topher. If you want to trust the WT as valid interpreters, I invite you to go to my threads here on "Who is Jesus Really?" and the one about the false prophecies of the WT and see if you really want to trust their interpretation. It is an eternal matter after all, and eternity would be a long time to be wrong.

[razzendahcuben]

I do not see how a thing that was used to torure and eventually kill someone can be used as a symbol of faith. Many people were put to death on such crosses, stakes or hung on a tree as the bible puts it. Nowhere in the bible does it say that the cross is a symbol of the Christian faith. Nowhere does it say that the cross is Holy.
The Bible clearly indicates that Jesus suffered on the cross. Then why is it held as a symbol of faith?
Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 Cor 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Those that preach the cross are foolish; but those who preach the act of the cross and what Jesus accomplished is the power of God.

The Bible doesn't explicitly mention a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily forbidden or condoned. Instead, we deduce truths from scripture, just as Christ did in Matthew 24:41-45. The Roman Catholic church did not first identify Christianity with the cross, Paul did:

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. -Gal. 6:14

How many people before Paul gloried in an instrument of torture and execution? The horrible death of crucifixion is your life.

Furthermore, there are certainly many issues within Christendom worth debating over, but this isn't one of them. If you are really a JW, you have a lot more to worry about, as ApologiaNick has pointed out, than whether the cross is a Christian symbol. I don't wear a cross because I don't need my faith prefaced by anything external---I want the lost to see that I'm a Christian by my actions. Still, as a born-again Christian I know what the cross really stands for, even when worn by some thug rapper or self-pious pew warmer.

[Tsmith]

thanks, that is another point in favor of it really being a cross that Jesus was killed on. If it were a stake, then what was he carrying? The stake would be fixed permanently at the execution site. It must have been the cross piece.

You're confused. When it was a state they would carry the beam. Jesus carried what he died on according to scripture, not a part of what he died on.

[Sparko]

hey Tsmith, it was YOU who said that the romans made their victims carry the cross piece. makes sense that that was what jesus carried. the vertical pole part would be too large to carry and would be permanently fixed at the execution site.

[Tsmith]

hey Tsmith, it was YOU who said that the romans made their victims carry the cross piece. makes sense that that was what jesus carried. the vertical pole part would be too large to carry and would be permanently fixed at the execution site.


What is your basis for that information? When executed on a stake, I can find no evidence that it was too big.

[Sparko]

What is your basis for that information? When executed on a stake, I can find no evidence that it was too big.

You were executed on a stake? :rofl:

[Tsmith]

You were executed on a stake? :rofl:

Dodging the question

[Sparko]

well, you said when executed on a stake you could find no evidence it was too big.

Anyway... It was YOU who brought up the fact that the romans had the victims carry the cross piece, smitty.

see post #9.

If he were killed on a stake, why would they make him carry the stake? Why would it not be left at the execution site? It would have to be, what? 7 or 8 foot in length? and about 8 to 12 inches in diameter? have you ever tried to carry a piece of wood that big? It would weigh about 400 pounds. It would be like two or three rail road ties put together. A rail road tie weighs more than 200 pounds.

But as we have already noted in this thread, all evidence points to him being executed on a CROSS and not a verticle stake without a cross piece.

[Tsmith]

well, you said when executed on a stake you could find no evidence it was too big.

Anyway... It was YOU who brought up the fact that the romans had the victims carry the cross piece, smitty.

see post #9.

If he were killed on a stake, why would they make him carry the stake? Why would it not be left at the execution site? It would have to be, what? 7 or 8 foot in length? and about 8 to 12 inches in diameter? have you ever tried to carry a piece of wood that big? It would weigh about 400 pounds. It would be like two or three rail road ties put together. A rail road tie weighs more than 200 pounds.

But as we have already noted in this thread, all evidence points to him being executed on a CROSS and not a verticle stake without a cross piece.


Of course you are ignoring now the point I am making. What Jesus carried is what he died on, not a part of what he died on.

[Sparko]

Of course you are ignoring now the point I am making. What Jesus carried is what he died on, not a part of what he died on.

Ahh. OK. I missed that you were making that specific point.

but the narrative in the gospels just isn't detailed enough for you to state that with certainty. The word for the cross piece and the main piece could be the same, basically using one word for part of the whole and the whole.

If he was carrying a cross piece it is perfectly normal to say he was carrying his cross.

but regardless, I think you are getting bogged down in irrelevant details. The evidence is much stronger for Jesus dying on a cross than a stake. All of the first century christian evidence we have shows they used a cross as a symbol (see post number 1 and the graffito I posted) and if he died on a stake, you have to explain how they started using a cross as a symbol for christianity in the first century.

[Tsmith]

Ahh. OK. I missed that you were making that specific point.

but the narrative in the gospels just isn't detailed enough for you to state that with certainty. The word for the cross piece and the main piece could be the same, basically using one word for part of the whole and the whole.

If he was carrying a cross piece it is perfectly normal to say he was carrying his cross.

but regardless, I think you are getting bogged down in irrelevant details. The evidence is much stronger for Jesus dying on a cross than a stake. All of the first century christian evidence we have shows they used a cross as a symbol (see post number 1 and the graffito I posted) and if he died on a stake, you have to explain how they started using a cross as a symbol for christianity in the first century.


It is though. It speaks of him carrying his STAROUS and then being killed on it.

Your images give no evidence that it was a Christian symbol in the 1st century. People died on them then, no doubt, but certainly no evidence of it being a Christian symbol. And of course that doesn't consider the Biblical points like the one I've here made.

[Sparko]

It is though. It speaks of him carrying his STAROUS and then being killed on it.

Your images give no evidence that it was a Christian symbol in the 1st century. People died on them then, no doubt, but certainly no evidence of it being a Christian symbol.


but it does, smitty. I mean, grave stones with crosses on them? that are in catacombs known to be used by early christians? with commemorative dedications to Yeshua?

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html


and the graffito of a pagan making fun of a Christian with a toon of a man worshipping before a cross with a man with a donkey head? saying Alexamenos worships his God? It not only supports the idea of a cross, but of Jesus believed to be GOD by first century christians. Well before the catholic church decided to make the trinity official.

When and Why did Christians begin to use the cross according to YOU? The evidence we have shows that it was right from the beginning.

[Tsmith]

but it does, smitty. I mean, grave stones with crosses on them? that are in catacombs known to be used by early christians? with commemorative dedications to Yeshua?

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html


and the graffito of a pagan making fun of a Christian with a toon of a man worshipping before a cross with a man with a donkey head? saying Alexamenos worships his God? It not only supports the idea of a cross, but of Jesus believed to be GOD by first century christians. Well before the catholic church decided to make the trinity official.

When and Why did Christians begin to use the cross according to YOU? The evidence we have shows that it was right from the beginning.

Just for example, how do you know when these etchings were made?

The pagan man making fun of a Christian.. ok.. what does that have to do with Jesus if Jesus isn't the one there being executed? I do not deny that people were executed on crosses.

[Sparko]

Just for example, how do you know when these etchings were made?

Well read the article, Tsmith. It gives evidence of when they were made. Now I suppose you can say the guy is lying or mistaken, but I see no reason to doubt him.


The pagan man making fun of a Christian.. ok.. what does that have to do with Jesus if Jesus isn't the one there being executed? I do not deny that people were executed on crosses.

Well it shows that even the pagans knew that the christians believed their God was crucified on a cross. And he was making fun of him. If even the enemies of Christianity in the first century knew that Jesus was killed on a cross and was considered our God, then it is a pretty good sign that the first century Christians did preach these things. And being very close to the actual event, there is not time enough for the message to be corrupted.

How do you explain the use of a cross as a religious symbol in early Christianity if Jesus was not killed on a cross? Why did they begin to say he was, and when? Give evidence please.

[David_A_Reed]

The Bible says about Christ on the cross, "Above his head they placed the written charge against him." (Matthew 27:37 NIV) Compare that verse to traditional Christian illustrations of Jesus on the cross and Jehovah's Witness illustrations of Jesus nailed to an upright stake with both hands together over his head. If the Watchtower were right, Matthew would have said that the written charge was placed "above his hands." The fact that the charges were place "above his head" proves that the Christian illustrations fit the Scriptures, while the JW illustrations do not.

The Watchtower organization took the cross out of their "Bible" (New World Translation) but they slipped up and elsewhere published evidence that proves themselves wrong -- a booklet that shows Romans used THE CROSS to execute Christians. A picture on page 7 of the 1990 Watchtower booklet How Can Blood Save Your Life shows early Christians dying on crosses in the arena.

[Topherlee]

Well, I don't think the specifics were written in this matter. A sign above his head can literally mean upward - above his hands does not determine where his hands were positioned.
Whether the JW's accurate account of biblical translation is correct, which is to my understanding, pretty close, coincides with history. You can turn to Wikipedia or the History Channel for that matter and what history has revealed is that the cross used for slaves and non-Romans (criminals) was a tau cross, in the shape of an upper case "T". I believe this method of deadly torture was taken from the Greeks - if memory serves.
The cross was eventually changed with the protruding beam years after the death of Christ is for the reason being; speculation. How did they fit the epitaph above the head of Christ? A number of ways.
Also, history has disclosed that in no way after receiving a severe beating, could no man, as Jesus, have carried a full cross to its final resting point. The word used was for a "piece of timber" that was carried - that was positioned at the top of the tau cross (my thoughts).
Again, I personally do not think that the physical cross needs to be immortalized. It is the act that took place upon the cross. Plainly spoken, we do not need to show proudly the tool that was used to painfully torture and kill the Son of God as a criminal over and over again. His message and spiritual strength is all we need. The cross is of this world, Jesus is not. Do not compare Christianity to anything of this world. The Kingdom of Christ has not yet arrived.

These are just my thoughts...

Love all,

[David_A_Reed]

A picture on page 7 of the 1990 Watchtower booklet How Can Blood Save Your Life shows early Christians dying on crosses in the arena.

This amounts to an inadvertent admission that Jesus did die on a cross—even though The Watchtower has been teaching to the contrary since the early 1930's.
http://www.cftf.com/online/1998JanMarp14top.gif
Here's an closeup enlargement from the right-hand side of the same picture. If the Romans used crosses to kill these Christians, they must have used a similar cross to kill Jesus:
http://www.cftf.com/online/1998JanMarp14bot.gif
How embarrassing! Their own booklet proves the Watchtower Society wrong in what it teaches about the cross.