spells

[junipersilver]

This is kind of a rant, but only a miniature one.
As far as spells go, in my opinion even if they don't "work" in a way where you can float an object or something ridiculious like that, can't they still be considered the equivalent of a prayer? The only differences(in the type I would use anyway) are the use of objects, days, times, etc to symbolize different things. That could just be considered a way to focus your mind on the prayer.
I don't see why prayers are so widely accepted, but if someone mentions doing a spell people see it as foolish. I guess it's just things they've heard from the media...but it's still kind of annoying.

[tmancour]

This is kind of a rant, but only a miniature one.
As far as spells go, in my opinion even if they don't "work" in a way where you can float an object or something ridiculious like that, can't they still be considered the equivalent of a prayer? The only differences(in the type I would use anyway) are the use of objects, days, times, etc to symbolize different things. That could just be considered a way to focus your mind on the prayer.
I don't see why prayers are so widely accepted, but if someone mentions doing a spell people see it as foolish. I guess it's just things they've heard from the media...but it's still kind of annoying.
Spells and prayer are both magick; the difference is that Wiccan spells are often thaumaturgic, while prayer or spells invoking the aid of specific deites are theurgic. But the both involve exactly the same mental mind-set, and they both follow the same ritual pattern. Don't worry about what the Christians say about magick -- they are self-delusional when it comes to this topic.

Shocker, isn't it?

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

[junipersilver]

Yeah I guess I shouldn't be too worried about it. I was just thinking about how many people did their final report in school on Christianity, so I did mine on Wicca. Not a single person didn't have a serious face when the reports on Christianity mentioned prayer, but the minute I mentioned spells everyone starts snickering. They must not have even heard what I said about spells because later they were looking at me & chanting gibberish while waving their hands around. Small towns are so peaceful :lol:
Oh well, c'est la vie

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

If I may ask...

Isn't there an essential difference between spells and prayer, though? In spells, it's like "You do this, you get that," in prayer, it's a request, which is then up for review. But magic is said to be like machinery, as I have heard, not like a letter to the alderman about the potholes, but a description on How To Fix Potholes, only by using supernatural power, instead of a rake and a shovel.

Blessings,
Lee

[junipersilver]

Hi everyone,

If I may ask...

Isn't there an essential difference between spells and prayer, though? In spells, it's like "You do this, you get that," in prayer, it's a request, which is then up for review. But magic is said to be like machinery, as I have heard, not like a letter to the alderman about the potholes, but a description on How To Fix Potholes, only by using supernatural power, instead of a rake and a shovel.

Blessings,
Lee

This is just an opinion, but I think spells are a request like prayers are. It would be pretty arrogant to think that you're going to get everything that you want. Though who's being prayed to has different names than the Christian God, someone is still hearing you. It's up to them to decide if you really need whatever you're asking for. I'm not sure I follow your whole pothole analogy. Can you please reexplain?

[tmancour]

Isn't there an essential difference between spells and prayer, though? In spells, it's like "You do this, you get that," in prayer, it's a request, which is then up for review. But magic is said to be like machinery, as I have heard, not like a letter to the alderman about the potholes, but a description on How To Fix Potholes, only by using supernatural power, instead of a rake and a shovel.


Thaumaturgically speaking (Thaumaturgy is the study of the science of magick, for the uninformed) prayers and spells are essentially the same thing; the difference is in the power and control, the two vital elements of any magickal working.

In theurgic magick, where a deity is invoked and asked for assistance, there is usually little control ("thy will be done") and a lot of power, as the power is based on the belief in the deity and its willingness to intercede on behalf of the spellcaster. In thaumaturgic magick, on the other hand, there is usually a great deal of control ("my will be done") but not usually a lot of power.

Christian churches are great at raising power through belief; anyone who has been to a rockin' black Baptist musical service will attest to that. But the control of the power is lacking. The people have little understanding of how or what they are supposed to do with it, and they usually leave it up to the deity to push it where he wants it. In most Wiccan and ceremonial magick circles it is the opposite: lots of control, but comparatively little juice. Remember that even a very large Wiccan gathering will only have the numbers of a medium-sized church.

There is a difference in understanding of spiritual technology like this. By pushing the control of the spell to the deity, the Christians also push the responsibility for the results there. In Wicca the control stays with the spellcasters, but so does the responsibility for the outcome.

The best merging of the two I've ever seen is actually at a little Catholic church in Durham that is predominantly black. They combine the energy of traditional southern black churches with the control of the Roman Catholic liturgy. And the music is great.

Arion

[Durthorin]

It has always been my understanding that Magik is the manipulation of energy via will. As such when your doing a spell your attempting in a purly mechanical sense to move the universe to match your will. Your also attempting via that act of will to overcome the inertia of the universe itself and effect the councious and unconciess will of others that may modify or oppose the spell your working. Note: That may even include the different Gods you and others worship. Where the Gods come in during spellcraft as augmentation.. they help and strengthen will. An that in many ways is a form of Faith.

A prayer on the other hand is a direct appeal. It is asking the Gods for an outcome that you do not have the power or skill to effect. Its also an act of Faith in that you are leaving the manner of that outcome up to the Gods or even if you get it at all. Sometimes as the saying goes, the The Gods always hear you, sometimes the answer is no.

Danu Bless, Dur

[Darth Executor]

It has always been my understanding that Magik is the manipulation of energy via will.

Actually that sounds like psychic ability.

[tmancour]

Actually that sounds like psychic ability.
The two are essentially the same, thaumaturgically. Magick is just the word we use for the complex use of psychic abilities to change the universe the way we want it.

I rarely rely on the gods in my workings for more than guidance and protection. Perhaps that is because I understand the magickal process a little better than most adherants. The mechanism in spellcasting is pretty straight forward: get yourself into a slightly altered state of consciousness, manipulate a symbolic system to spell out a formula for action, pour into that action as much properly tuned power as you can, and try to get the God Mind (the superconscious mind) involved, as that is the part of the mind that actually can work your psychic energy into a form that can do stuff the way you want it done.

It's tricky. Most prayers don't get that involved, they are simply part of the worshipper/deity relationship.

I've always taken the tack that the gods don't answer prayers; they grant you opportunities.

Arion

[lee_merrill]

It has always been my understanding that Magik is the manipulation of energy via will.
That is what I have heard, and there could certainly be overlap between spells and requests, but these two do seem to be distinct concepts. That's what I meant by the fix-the-pothole analogy, just causing some effect in this world, by following a prescribed procedure, to active supernatural power, to fix the pothole. Though the alderman might be consulted too, to see what they could also do...

I've always taken the tack that the gods don't answer prayers; they grant you opportunities.
Do you mean opportunities for you to do something? I've had prayers answered that were more direct than this, but all I did was ask! And I think that is the power in Christianity, I agree that it isn't wielded like what we hear of magic, and I believe that's because it can't be wielded that way.

By pushing the control of the spell to the deity, the Christians also push the responsibility for the results there. In Wicca the control stays with the spellcasters, but so does the responsibility for the outcome.
So maybe the different amounts of power here indicates that the first approach might be intended to be the one to choose? This might be a design decision. And an inability to wield Christian power at will may well indicate that the sources of power are even different...

Blessings,
Lee

[tmancour]

That is what I have heard, and there could certainly be overlap between spells and requests, but these two do seem to be distinct concepts. That's what I meant by the fix-the-pothole analogy, just causing some effect in this world, by following a prescribed procedure, to active supernatural power, to fix the pothole. Though the alderman might be consulted too, to see what they could also do...

Note a bad analogy.

Do you mean opportunities for you to do something? I've had prayers answered that were more direct than this, but all I did was ask! And I think that is the power in Christianity, I agree that it isn't wielded like what we hear of magic, and I believe that's because it can't be wielded that way.

The Path of Wisdom is winding trail sprinkled with Magick. When a witch first starts out learning the Craft, they are all gung-ho to build all sorts of ritual tools and altars and wands and such, and are very eager to "do a lot of magick". Wiser (and usually -- but not always -- older) heads know that the tools are not the essential thing, they are merely a focus. And they know that most of the time you don't really need to do magick if you are wise enough to recognize a gods-given opportunity when it bites you on the metaphysical ass. Basically, the more magick you know, the more you realize that it is often more trouble to tinker with the nature of reality than it is to avoid the problem that necessitated the intervention in the first place.

For example, doing a "jobs" spell won't get you a job -- unless you get a haircut, buy a suit, write a resume, apply for jobs and actually show up for an interview. Once you do all the pre-requisites a job spell may work out fine for a job you really want, but you can't do one and expect the CEO of Disney to call with a six-figure offer. Or a money spell -- new witches love these, and they can work -- but if you can't balance your checkbook, it is unlikely that your power or even the will of the gods is going to grant you money. Why should they? But they may provide an opportunity, say a chance encounter with someone who knows a department that is searching for someone with your skills for a lucrative position.

I guess what I'm saying is that magick is at its most effective when it is least needed. The gods aren't going to hand you a thick wad of cash or true love or a new house or a college education, but they might help you on your own way towards these things. And if you can muster the power to cast a really potent spell, you can get your lazy butt down to Fantastic Sams and get a haircut the day before an interview.

I quite agree, Christian magick doesn't usually work like this. There is a lot of power there, but so much gets bled off in undirected ways that the net effect is the same. And I don't discount either system being able to produce spectacular results: I've known a Christian man who prayed himself out of cancer. And remind me to tell you about how the Goddess gave me socks one time.


So maybe the different amounts of power here indicates that the first approach might be intended to be the one to choose? This might be a design decision. And an inability to wield Christian power at will may well indicate that the sources of power are even different...


I wouldn't go that far. Power means little if you can't control it. Nuclear power in a fission bomb is a lot of power. Nuclear power in a fission plant is less overall power, but it is more useful. Now, some people like nukes in their spiritual life -- I just want to keep the lights on.

Arion

[betzerg]

This is kind of a rant, but only a miniature one.
As far as spells go, in my opinion even if they don't "work" in a way where you can float an object or something ridiculious like that, can't they still be considered the equivalent of a prayer? The only differences(in the type I would use anyway) are the use of objects, days, times, etc to symbolize different things. That could just be considered a way to focus your mind on the prayer.
I don't see why prayers are so widely accepted, but if someone mentions doing a spell people see it as foolish. I guess it's just things they've heard from the media...but it's still kind of annoying.

The REALLY BIG question for the wiccan is "who answers the spell/prayers that you use?" If you say "the G-d of creation"...then you must acknowledge that in the area of sorcery G-d states "why do you seek mediums and sorcerers, SHOULDN"T A PEOPLE SEEK THEIR G-D!"

But if the prayers/spells are evolked and presented to the god and goddes...then ...you are pagan and comparing spells with PRAYER is like comparing apples and oranges.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Darth Executor]

Maybe I should go to catholic mass and see if I can channel the energy into something cool like a fireball. :grin:

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

if you can't balance your checkbook, it is unlikely that your power or even the will of the gods is going to grant you money. Why should they?
But that's a prayer, not a spell! I do think this is a distinction here. Spells might conceivably fail because of a veto, or a failure to follow the procedure, but (at least theoretically) not because the spell was wrong.

Magic is machinery! So Arthur Clark I think had the right idea in saying "Sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." We can fly now, not on broomsticks or in a mortal and pestle, but flight is there, just the same, and not subject to a deities veto, not as a matter of course, anyway.

I quite agree, Christian magick doesn't usually work like this. There is a lot of power there, but so much gets bled off in undirected ways that the net effect is the same.
Then there can't be spectacular results?

And I don't discount either system being able to produce spectacular results: I've known a Christian man who prayed himself out of cancer.
Then there can be spectacular results from Christian prayer! Well, I have been healed several times, and the Bible speaks of Pharaoh's magicians doing the first two or three miracles that Moses did. But Betzerg's point is pertinent here, if one source says the other source is different, and forbidden, then we have to wonder if all this power is the same. Especially if we can see spiritual sources of power in opposition...

Luke 11:20-23 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up the spoils. He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Blessings,
Lee

[tmancour]

The REALLY BIG question for the wiccan is "who answers the spell/prayers that you use?"

The big question for you, perhaps -- we're pretty sure who answers. Of course we could begin our invokations with "To Whom it may concern," but that would be lame. We invoke the God and The Goddess, the divine Masculine and Feminine Principals.


If you say "the G-d of creation"...then you must acknowledge that in the area of sorcery G-d states "why do you seek mediums and sorcerers, SHOULDN"T A PEOPLE SEEK THEIR G-D!"

Actually, if you are speaking of Jehovah, the national god of Israel, then no, we don't. Creation isn't a big deal for us, and the cosmology of creation is ultimately unknowable and really unimportant to our daily lives. We know we were created -- now what? Our focus is not to blindly adore some distant demiurge, but to live our lives fully, and to the best of our ability.

And we don't have to acknowlege any stray bit of scripture from any text of whatever pedigree. We are not a text based religion, and we do not hold the Bible in any of its myriad forms as the ultimate truth, literally interpreted. We've seen the problems that radical monotheism and closed-canon text-based religions have visited on the world, and we don't see why we should knuckle under to Jehovah's Law. Sorry, he isn't ours, we don't live by his rules.

And this whole business about "seeking" is rather revealing, don't you think? Why seek a deity who is supposed to be omnipotent and omnipresent? We prefer to conceive of our deities as all around us. We don't seek the gods -- they are the air we breath, the water we drink. A god that must be sought -- you'd have to wonder what the point is, wouldn't you?

Now, we do seek a deeper understanding of the gods, but that is a different story. Indeed, it is the primary focus of most of our practice. We are a mystical religion, meaning we seek a direct union with the godhead. But we have eschewed the fasting, sackcloth, ashes, and other other depredations that desert-born mystics are so fond of. We seek our divine union in the development of our own characters, the living of our own lives. In my case, it is in the relationship I have with my wife, and the three children that our love has produced. I can look at them and know that the Goddess is present -- I need not seek Her.



But if the prayers/spells are evolked and presented to the god and goddes...then ...you are pagan and comparing spells with PRAYER is like comparing apples and oranges.

Actually, I am a Pagan, and fiercly proud of it. And the difference between spells and prayer is academic (but not uninteresting) to a thaumaturge. They are not apples and oranges, they are, say, Granny Smiths and Red Delicious. They are extremely similar in form, function, intent, and purpose, and they obey similar thaumaturgical laws. Sure, you as an adherant of Jehovah can shout about how different they are, but that's to be expected: your whole rational belief system is utterly dependant upon Jehovah utterly dominating any shred of an idea that he claimed credit for first, and demonizing everything else. If Jehova works just like any other deity in your mind, you lose faith, he loses power, and your magick dims.

It's OK. We understand. You can't help it. It's how your religion was built.
Some of us were monotheists once, too. You'll get over it.



Shalom,

BETZER


Blessed Be,

Arion

[tmancour]

Maybe I should go to catholic mass and see if I can channel the energy into something cool like a fireball. :grin:
Somehow I don't think you're that good.

[Darth Executor]

Somehow I don't think you're that good.

I made a coin levitate when i was a deist (so no divine intervention). Any mystical experiment I've made usually gave off surprising results. Heck, my friend thinks I'm a curse generator. Thought I killed some dude's grandmother back in grade 5.

[tmancour]

I made a coin levitate when i was a deist (so no divine intervention). Any mystical experiment I've made usually gave off surprising results. Heck, my friend thinks I'm a curse generator. Thought I killed some dude's grandmother back in grade 5.
Well, maybe you are that good. Go ahead and try it, and let me know the results.

Arion

[betzerg]

The big question for you, perhaps -- we're pretty sure who answers. Of course we could begin our invokations with "To Whom it may concern," but that would be lame. We invoke the God and The Goddess, the divine Masculine and Feminine Principals.



Actually, if you are speaking of Jehovah, the national god of Israel, then no, we don't. Creation isn't a big deal for us, and the cosmology of creation is ultimately unknowable and really unimportant to our daily lives. We know we were created -- now what? Our focus is not to blindly adore some distant demiurge, but to live our lives fully, and to the best of our ability.

And we don't have to acknowlege any stray bit of scripture from any text of whatever pedigree. We are not a text based religion, and we do not hold the Bible in any of its myriad forms as the ultimate truth, literally interpreted. We've seen the problems that radical monotheism and closed-canon text-based religions have visited on the world, and we don't see why we should knuckle under to Jehovah's Law. Sorry, he isn't ours, we don't live by his rules.

And this whole business about "seeking" is rather revealing, don't you think? Why seek a deity who is supposed to be omnipotent and omnipresent? We prefer to conceive of our deities as all around us. We don't seek the gods -- they are the air we breath, the water we drink. A god that must be sought -- you'd have to wonder what the point is, wouldn't you?

Now, we do seek a deeper understanding of the gods, but that is a different story. Indeed, it is the primary focus of most of our practice. We are a mystical religion, meaning we seek a direct union with the godhead. But we have eschewed the fasting, sackcloth, ashes, and other other depredations that desert-born mystics are so fond of. We seek our divine union in the development of our own characters, the living of our own lives. In my case, it is in the relationship I have with my wife, and the three children that our love has produced. I can look at them and know that the Goddess is present -- I need not seek Her.




Actually, I am a Pagan, and fiercly proud of it. And the difference between spells and prayer is academic (but not uninteresting) to a thaumaturge. They are not apples and oranges, they are, say, Granny Smiths and Red Delicious. They are extremely similar in form, function, intent, and purpose, and they obey similar thaumaturgical laws. Sure, you as an adherant of Jehovah can shout about how different they are, but that's to be expected: your whole rational belief system is utterly dependant upon Jehovah utterly dominating any shred of an idea that he claimed credit for first, and demonizing everything else. If Jehova works just like any other deity in your mind, you lose faith, he loses power, and your magick dims.

It's OK. We understand. You can't help it. It's how your religion was built.
Some of us were monotheists once, too. You'll get over it.





Blessed Be,

Arion

Just curious....have you read the book of Enoch? According to this account, the "watchers" left their heavenly position and mated with women on earth. Then, these fallen beings began to teach the men of earth sorcery and magick, they taught men to "worship" them in a sense. This is the origins of paganism. It was actually ALMOST as early as the mon theism of Judaism.

And the apples and organges think. I get what you're saying. It is the inate part of every person created in the image of HaShem, to possess the ability to transend spiritually in an attempt to connect with others spiritually.

So we could say...spells and prayer could be compared to"
"I Pledge alligance to the flag of the united states of American, and to the republic for which it stands...ONE nation, under G-d with liberty and justice for all"

AND

"Heil Hitler"

Shalom,

BETZER

[Cu Mhorrigan]

One of the things I was taught about magic, (And this is via a comic book,) is that Magic responds to need. If a man is thirsty, would you give him a Flooding river, or a cup of water? the obvious answer is of course a cup of water. It's kind of the sme principle. the use of magic and the raising of energy is based upon what thaat energy is to be used for. Like If I want some one to be romantically involved with me, I would not cast the Infamous "Love" spell, and make that person all obsessed with me. Why? because It would eventually create a stalker situation (And having had stalker girlfriends, I can tell you it is NOT fun).
Rather I would perfom a spell to arrainge for us to meet together regularly so that we could get to know one another, and let her affection grow from there.

Or If I wanted to get someone out of my life. I wouldnt do a "Death Spell", because again that is Yet another BAD IDEA (Cops kind of frown on that); but rather a spell to guide them to their higher purpose, and their happiness AWAY FROM ME. This kind of Keeps My Life balanced and the cops away from my house.

[Darth Executor]

One of the things I was taught about magic, (And this is via a comic book,) is that Magic responds to need.

You were taught wrong.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Okay Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd? What else do you have to say about it? only four words in your vocablulary?

[tmancour]

Just curious....have you read the book of Enoch? According to this account, the "watchers" left their heavenly position and mated with women on earth. Then, these fallen beings began to teach the men of earth sorcery and magick, they taught men to "worship" them in a sense. This is the origins of paganism. It was actually ALMOST as early as the mon theism of Judaism.

Yes, I've read it. While interesting, it is neither terribly valid, nor does it fit with the historical facts. Paganism is thousands of years older than Judaism and monotheism in general. A conservative estimate would place a coherent pagan religion existing from at least the early neolithic, if not before. Enoch only works if you take the surrounding apocrypha as Real History, and not as folklore and fable.

And the apples and organges think. I get what you're saying. It is the inate part of every person created in the image of HaShem, to possess the ability to transend spiritually in an attempt to connect with others spiritually.

So we could say...spells and prayer could be compared to"
"I Pledge alligance to the flag of the united states of American, and to the republic for which it stands...ONE nation, under G-d with liberty and justice for all"

AND

"Heil Hitler"

Not the analogy I would have chosen -- but if you want to equate prayer with a nazi salute, that's your thing. My point is that THAUMATURGICALLY they are so closely related as to be indistinguishable. All the factors are identical, save for the perceived source of power and the perceived moral responsibility for the working. Prayer is magick, from a technical standpoint.

[tmancour]

You were taught wrong.


So magick doesn't respond to need? My experience has been otherwise. Indeed, trying to cast a spell for something you don't really need rarely works, regardless if you are doing theurgic or thaumaturgic magick. Whereas when the need is sincere and great, sometimes it happens without much conscious thought on the part of the practitioner.

Arion

[Darth Executor]

So magick doesn't respond to need? My experience has been otherwise. Indeed, trying to cast a spell for something you don't really need rarely works, regardless if you are doing theurgic or thaumaturgic magick.

Arion

I can only speak for thaumaturgic magic since Christian prayer is extremely unpredictable and completely out of our control (unless you're a monk who dedicated his life to God, which I am not). No, as far as I can tell thaumaturgic magic does not require "need". Did I need to make a coin levitate? Did I need to leave my body? Nope. I did it "for the heck of it" and it worked.

Whereas when the need is sincere and great, sometimes it happens without much conscious thought on the part of the practitioner.

No, however need and effect are not necessarily proportional which was what Cu was implying. I find that in thaumaturgic magic willpower is what pretty much powers the spell. Your theurgic magic, I would not know. I find most pagan deities weak and there is nothing they can do for me that I can't do on my own without the need to grovel at their feet.



PS - for my paranoid Christian brethren that might think I'm into "witchcraft", I'm not. I use a loose meaning of the word "magic" and the type of magic forbidden in the bible is theurgic magic involving any deity other than God.

[Darth Executor]

Okay Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd? What else do you have to say about it? only four words in your vocablulary?

I don't feel the need to back up my words when rebuking an opinion taken from a comic book.

[tmancour]

I don't feel the need to back up my words when rebuking an opinion taken from a comic book.


I've seen Biblical comic books -- does the same reasoning apply?

Arion

[tmancour]

I can only speak for thaumaturgic magic since Christian prayer is extremely unpredictable and completely out of our control (unless you're a monk who dedicated his life to God, which I am not). No, as far as I can tell thaumaturgic magic does not require "need". Did I need to make a coin levitate? Did I need to leave my body? Nope. I did it "for the heck of it" and it worked.

I don't think it requires need, I just think that need makes it that much more effective. Of course, levitation and astral projection could be construed as a "need" -- such as, "I need to know magick exists".



No, however need and effect are not necessarily proportional which was what Cu was implying. I find that in thaumaturgic magic willpower is what pretty much powers the spell. Your theurgic magic, I would not know. I find most pagan deities weak and there is nothing they can do for me that I can't do on my own without the need to grovel at their feet.


But need feeds willpower. Your Will is strongest where your perceived Need is greatest. As far as pagan deities and theurgic magick, I'd say it depends largely on the work in question and the deity in question. Want your garden to grow well? Vegetation gods are ideal. Want to cast a healing spell? Apollo and Brighid are good, Morrigan and Thor, not so much. And for pure, raw thaumaturgy, I suggest Hermes and Hecate, among others; plenty of gods devoted to magick.

BTW, can't speak for all pagans on this, but my gods really hate it when I grovel. The relationship is more mentor/student than anything else.


PS - for my paranoid Christian brethren that might think I'm into "witchcraft", I'm not. I use a loose meaning of the word "magic" and the type of magic forbidden in the bible is theurgic magic involving any deity other than God.

Can't argue with that.

Arion

[Darth Executor]

I've seen Biblical comic books -- does the same reasoning apply?

Arion

If somebody wants to critique or back up a point using a comic book I'd laugh my way out of the discussion. I don't care what the subject is, including the bible.

[tmancour]

If somebody wants to critique or back up a point using a comic book I'd laugh my way out of the discussion. I don't care what the subject is, including the bible.
Well, I respect your opinion, even if I think it's narrow-minded to exclude graphics from a debate. There are some really profound comics out there. But some people are touchy about "graven images" . . .


Arion

[Darth Executor]

I don't think it requires need, I just think that need makes it that much more effective. Of course, levitation and astral projection could be construed as a "need" -- such as, "I need to know magick exists".

I didn't need to know though. I was literally bored out of my mind. I'll discuss need in more detail in response to your next point.




But need feeds willpower. Your Will is strongest where your perceived Need is greatest.

I find that need and emotional blabbering weakens willpower. Of course, I can't speak for everybody but my will is strongest when there is no immediate danger or need. What need is good at is "accelerating" willpower. You can pack a lot of it very fast but it won't be as good as a calmer situation.

As far as pagan deities and theurgic magick, I'd say it depends largely on the work in question and the deity in question. Want your garden to grow well? Vegetation gods are ideal. Want to cast a healing spell? Apollo and Brighid are good, Morrigan and Thor, not so much. And for pure, raw thaumaturgy, I suggest Hermes and Hecate, among others; plenty of gods devoted to magick.

Hermes? He's not exactly devoted to magic, his domain is travelling and the like. Maybe Isis? Anyway it doesn't matter to me since I'm not allowed to use them nor do I need to.

[Darth Executor]

Well, I respect your opinion, even if I think it's narrow-minded to exclude graphics from a debate. There are some really profound comics out there. But some people are touchy about "graven images" . . .
Arion

It's not about "excluding graphics". The point is that comics are usually made for entertainment, not education. And being Greek Orthodox, the line between icon and graven image is rather blurred. =P

[Cynic Sage]

If somebody wants to critique or back up a point using a comic book I'd laugh my way out of the discussion. I don't care what the subject is, including the bible.

I remember one time, Minnesota refuted a Jack Chick tract. Showed it to us bunch of xtians on Tweb, and was surprised that we didn't really care.:lol:

[Darth Executor]

I remember one time, Minnesota refuted a Jack Chick tract.

:rofl:

[tmancour]

I didn't need to know though. I was literally bored out of my mind. I'll discuss need in more detail in response to your next point.


Hey, boredom is a powerful motivator. That's how I wrote my first book.


I find that need and emotional blabbering weakens willpower. Of course, I can't speak for everybody but my will is strongest when there is no immediate danger or need. What need is good at is "accelerating" willpower. You can pack a lot of it very fast but it won't be as good as a calmer situation.


Emotional blabbering, no. Need, yes. A true, sincere, and deeply felt need can, indeed, add to your will. But I take your point. An unfocused, emotional need can fuzz your focus big time.


Hermes? He's not exactly devoted to magic, his domain is travelling and the like. Maybe Isis? Anyway it doesn't matter to me since I'm not allowed to use them nor do I need to.


Actually, Hermes is as much a god of magick as he is a god of traveling, crossroads, etc. Perhaps more so. But for the last 1000 years it has been discouraged to talk about that aspect of his deityhood. Hermes was the Greek trickster deity. His patronage of magic and magicians is reflected in Hermes Trismagestes, "Hermes the Thrice Great", a ceremonial magick/alchemical tretise. One of the three Hermes was the original Greek god; the second was the Egyptian Thoth. I forget the third.

Arion

[Darth Executor]

Hey, boredom is a powerful motivator. That's how I wrote my first book.

Point taken. :lol:



Actually, Hermes is as much a god of magick as he is a god of traveling, crossroads, etc. Perhaps more so. But for the last 1000 years it has been discouraged to talk about that aspect of his deityhood. Hermes was the Greek trickster deity. His patronage of magic and magicians is reflected in Hermes Trismagestes, "Hermes the Thrice Great", a ceremonial magick/alchemical tretise. One of the three Hermes was the original Greek god; the second was the Egyptian Thoth. I forget the third.
Arion

The only hermes was the original Greek god. The greek gods were rumored to have run to Egypt and hide in the shape of animals (kind of interesting to note that many egyptian deities had an animal head) when Typhon assaulted Olympus. What I don't understand is what link he has with Thoth. Wasn't Thoth the god of wisdom? Hermes was sneaky but it's not that kind of intelligence that the word wisdom implies.

[tmancour]

Point taken. :lol:





The only hermes was the original Greek god. The greek gods were rumored to have run to Egypt and hide in the shape of animals (kind of interesting to note that many egyptian deities had an animal head) when Typhon assaulted Olympus. What I don't understand is what link he has with Thoth. Wasn't Thoth the god of wisdom? Hermes was sneaky but it's not that kind of intelligence that the word wisdom implies.
Both Hermes/Mercury and Thoth were gods of Magick. Thoth was the god of "wisdom", true, but his best talent was for the mathematics that made the pyramids possible to build -- which was indistinghuisable from magick to a bunch of copper-age Egyptians. Hermes was also a god of shamanic magick in his proto-Olympian days in Thrace. Hermes Trismagestes was the mythical author of the Emerald Tablet, a famed alchemical text in the Middle Ages. That's why the Western Occult tradition is known as Hermetic Magick. Interesting side note: computer analysis of the Emerald Tablet established that it was essentially the same text (accounting for multiple translations and meaning drift) as the Tao Te Ching, the Classic of the Way and its Power, one of the cornerstones of Taoism. Legend says that Lao Tzu, the author of the Tao Te Ching, departed China at its westernmost gate and was never seen again. He was supposed to have inscribed the Tao Te CHing on a series of jade plaques -- which would look an awful lot like Emerald Tablets to westerners who had never seen jade before. So Lao Tzu may have been responsible for one of the seminal texts in Western Occultism.

Arion

[junipersilver]

The REALLY BIG question for the wiccan is "who answers the spell/prayers that you use?" If you say "the G-d of creation"...then you must acknowledge that in the area of sorcery G-d states "why do you seek mediums and sorcerers, SHOULDN"T A PEOPLE SEEK THEIR G-D!"

But if the prayers/spells are evolked and presented to the god and goddes...then ...you are pagan and comparing spells with PRAYER is like comparing apples and oranges.

Shalom,

BETZER

Well, though I believe that the God & Goddess hear my spells/prayers, what if someone did believe that it was only God answering the spells? What makes you presume that everyone that believes in God believes in your God/has the same idea about what he enforces?

As for people seeking their God instead of mediums or sorcerers...they really aren't seeking a medium, it's more like they are acting as one. But what's the point of a meduim? To communicate with God(dess) in this case, so really they ARE seeking their God.

As for the rest, Arion said it better than I could.

[Darth Executor]

Well, though I believe that the God & Goddess hear my spells/prayers, what if someone did believe that it was only God answering the spells?

You shouldn't believe, you shoud know.

As for people seeking their God instead of mediums or sorcerers...they really aren't seeking a medium, it's more like they are acting as one. But what's the point of a meduim? To communicate with God(dess) in this case, so really they ARE seeking their God.


Why mediums though? Why can't they do it themselves?

[junipersilver]

You shouldn't believe, you shoud know.



Why mediums though? Why can't they do it themselves?

Well, I really don't know. I'm not going to lie about it. But I believe & that's enough. Being 100% sure about something would leave no space for me to consider other peoples ideas. So someone could give me indisputable evidence that I was wrong & I would be too wrapped up in being dogmatic to even take it into consideration. I want to be able to actually listen to people & understand them.

That was my point about mediums. They are doing it themselves. Unless I'm missing your point.

[tmancour]

That was my point about mediums. They are doing it themselves. Unless I'm missing your point.


That's an important thing about Wicca and the emergent Earth Religions: they are overtly magickal and inherently mystical. It is a religion of the clergy; there is little room for a laity. In most traditions becoming a witch means also becoming a priest/ess. The focus is on direct experience of the godhead. They aren't going to mediums (if necromancy is their thing) they are becoming them. Skills that were once known by only a few have become widely known, and crafts that had been painstakingly developed over a lifetime are now familiar to millions. Kind of like a martial art or stained glass making or automotive mechanics.

The fact is, our economy has evolved to the point where more people have the resources and time to devote to spiritual pursuits.

Arion

[Darth Executor]

Well, I really don't know. I'm not going to lie about it. But I believe & that's enough. Being 100% sure about something would leave no space for me to consider other peoples ideas. So someone could give me indisputable evidence that I was wrong & I would be too wrapped up in being dogmatic to even take it into consideration. I want to be able to actually listen to people & understand them.

The comment was in reference to the gods hearing your prayers when you cast a spell. It has nothing to do with "dogmatism". How can you unleash any kind of power and not know what you're doing?

That was my point about mediums. They are doing it themselves. Unless I'm missing your point.

Actually you were defending those that seek out mediums. They are not doing it themselves, they have a medium do it for them.

[junipersilver]

The comment was in reference to the gods hearing your prayers when you cast a spell. It has nothing to do with "dogmatism". How can you unleash any kind of power and not know what you're doing?



Actually you were defending those that seek out mediums. They are not doing it themselves, they have a medium do it for them.

If my deities don't exist then I'm not unleashing power. If they don't exist then there is no power. Are you saying that it's dangerous?

No, I wasn't talking about people who seek out mediums at all. What I said was "they really aren't seeking a medium, it's more like they are acting as one." Meaning they don't go to a medium, they ARE a medium.

[betzerg]

If my deities don't exist then I'm not unleashing power. If they don't exist then there is no power. Are you saying that it's dangerous?

No, I wasn't talking about people who seek out mediums at all. What I said was "they really aren't seeking a medium, it's more like they are acting as one." Meaning they don't go to a medium, they ARE a medium.


I guess I've never really taken the ideology of paganism or wicca seriously, the main reason being that I KNOW several pagans and they all seem to be stuck at an emotional maturity level of an 18 year old. Dancing naked in the woods around a fire and chanting incantations....smoking marjuana...and disliking christians ..not just disliking...actually dispising. Most wiccans are either under the age of 30 or..being over 30..look much like left-over hippies from the 60's.

I'm sure you're nothing like this.

If you ask a wiccan who created the heavens and the earth..they just seem to shrug and act like intellectual pursuits are LEAST on their list of activities.


You've proven yourself to be a different sort of Wiccan...and I can appreciate the position a little more.

I still disagree with it...but I understand now that it does make sense to those with an IQ over 90.

Shalom,

betzer

[junipersilver]

I guess I've never really taken the ideology of paganism or wicca seriously, the main reason being that I KNOW several pagans and they all seem to be stuck at an emotional maturity level of an 18 year old. Dancing naked in the woods around a fire and chanting incantations....smoking marjuana...and disliking christians ..not just disliking...actually dispising. Most wiccans are either under the age of 30 or..being over 30..look much like left-over hippies from the 60's.

I'm sure you're nothing like this.

If you ask a wiccan who created the heavens and the earth..they just seem to shrug and act like intellectual pursuits are LEAST on their list of activities.


You've proven yourself to be a different sort of Wiccan...and I can appreciate the position a little more.

I still disagree with it...but I understand now that it does make sense to those with an IQ over 90.

Shalom,

betzer

Thanks Betzer, that's a really nice thing to say. I'm glad you don't think my IQ is below 90. :teeth: Honestly, if I had the maturity level of an 18 year old though...it'd be considered a compliment since I won't be 18 until October. But I'm not so much for dancing naked, smoking any sort of drug, or despising religions. I'm assuming you're not into that stuff either. :tongue:

[Darth Executor]

If my deities don't exist then I'm not unleashing power. If they don't exist then there is no power. Are you saying that it's dangerous?


You should know, at least at an instinctual level if you're releasing power. If you have no idea what you're doing then yeah, you bet it's dangerous. :glare:

No, I wasn't talking about people who seek out mediums at all. What I said was "they really aren't seeking a medium, it's more like they are acting as one." Meaning they don't go to a medium, they ARE a medium.

ok gotcha

[tmancour]

I guess I've never really taken the ideology of paganism or wicca seriously, the main reason being that I KNOW several pagans and they all seem to be stuck at an emotional maturity level of an 18 year old. Dancing naked in the woods around a fire and chanting incantations....smoking marjuana...and disliking christians ..not just disliking...actually dispising. Most wiccans are either under the age of 30 or..being over 30..look much like left-over hippies from the 60's.


Much the same could be said about teen-aged Christians. Some of them are so hard-core and evangelistic that it is painful, others play the "I'm so tight with jesus that we go bowling" game. It isn't so much a function of religion as it is teenaged hormones.

And as far as the older Wiccans -- most of them ARE leftover hippies from the 60s and 70s. That doesn't automatically make them intellectually invalid. many, if not most, went to college of some kind, and there is avery high percentage of advanced-degree holders.

One thing that non-Pagans need to understand is that most Pagans have a commitment to living a Magickal Life, and for many this includes clothes and jewelry that you might consider strange, speech patterns and hairstyles that are not exactly mainstream, and practices that, let's face it, weren't covered in Sunday School. Dancing naked around a bonfire is no sillier, objectively speaking, than plunging into a stream, creek, or pond fully clothed as many local Baptist churches insist upon. It's all a matter of perspective.


If you ask a wiccan who created the heavens and the earth..they just seem to shrug and act like intellectual pursuits are LEAST on their list of activities.


I'm not denying that that could be true; there are some pretty dim Pagans out there. On the other hand, the very nature of the question is of little interest to Pagan theology. We are not wrapped up in the Creation, we are far, far more concerned aboutliving our daily lives in accordance with our Divine Will, discussing ethics, magick, poetry (lots of good Pagan poets out there -- and lots of bad ones, too), music, ritual, mystical experience, and all of that jazz. Creation is only of concern to Gods of History, such as Jehovah/Jesus/Allah. More cyclically based religions don't place a lot of importance in it. See how Hinduism, Buddhism, and Chinese Folk religion deals with the subject.
[/QUOTE]

You've proven yourself to be a different sort of Wiccan...and I can appreciate the position a little more.

I still disagree with it...but I understand now that it does make sense to those with an IQ over 90.[/QUOTE]

Breakthrough, Betzer!

Blessed Be,

Arion

[junipersilver]

You should know, at least at an instinctual level if you're releasing power. If you have no idea what you're doing then yeah, you bet it's dangerous. :glare:



ok gotcha

So praying is dangerous? Because that's what I consider spells. I don't see how praying could be dangerous. I'm sure their are many who pray not only without knowing 100% who's listening, but also many who pray that don't have a clue who's listening at all. I don't see how that's bad if it helps them feel better and maybe even helps their situation.

[tmancour]

So praying is dangerous? Because that's what I consider spells. I don't see how praying could be dangerous. I'm sure their are many who pray not only without knowing 100% who's listening, but also many who pray that don't have a clue who's listening at all. I don't see how that's bad if it helps them feel better and maybe even helps their situation.


If the person praying makes no effort to record and track their prayers, then results good or bad are difficult to perceive. Oh, sure, there are plenty of people who get what they pray for -- one time out of a hundred, say -- and start talking about how efficacious prayer is. In contrast, most Witches keep track of the spells that they do in their Book of Shadows and record any results. It helps us find what works best for us.

And sure, if praying makes someone feel better, what's the harm? The same could be said of spellcasting. I've seen people "pray against" someone in what is known as a "retributive prayer", a fancy word for a curse -- definatley not something I think Jesus would favor -- and sometime their prayers are answered, too. And I've also encountered people who believe their prayers have been answered, but the answer was so off-the-wall and contrary to their best interests I would have to wonder how effective the prayer was in the first place.

Arion

[Darth Executor]

So praying is dangerous? Because that's what I consider spells. I don't see how praying could be dangerous.

Praying to my God is not dangerous because He usually ignores anything that He doesn't see fit to give (which is why I rarely, if ever ask for anything when I pray). I can't say the same for your gods though.

I'm sure their are many who pray not only without knowing 100% who's listening, but also many who pray that don't have a clue who's listening at all. I don't see how that's bad if it helps them feel better and maybe even helps their situation.

I was thinking more of the use of psychic ability actually. Doing magic without invoking gods through your will alone.

[junipersilver]

Praying to my God is not dangerous because He usually ignores anything that He doesn't see fit to give (which is why I rarely, if ever ask for anything when I pray). I can't say the same for your gods though.



I was thinking more of the use of psychic ability actually. Doing magic without invoking gods through your will alone.

So you are admitting that you think my Gods exist? If they are giving me all sorts of dangerous things then they must exist. Also, my ideas of the God & Goddess is that they don't randomly give out whatever people want. I have the same belief as you do about your God...that they ignore things that they don't see fit to give. Just because some Wiccans believe that the Gods give people what ever they ask for doesn't mean that I believe that. Just like other religions, most peoples ideas of God are varied even within just that religion.

[Darth Executor]

So you are admitting that you think my Gods exist? If they are giving me all sorts of dangerous things then they must exist.

Yes, I am. I'm not particularly impressed with them as deities though.

Also, my ideas of the God & Goddess is that they don't randomly give out whatever people want. I have the same belief as you do about your God...that they ignore things that they don't see fit to give. Just because some Wiccans believe that the Gods give people what ever they ask for doesn't mean that I believe that. Just like other religions, most peoples ideas of God are varied even within just that religion.

If that were the case people wouldn't be asking anything of them. You are so I'm a bit suspicious.

[junipersilver]

Yes, I am. I'm not particularly impressed with them as deities though.



If that were the case people wouldn't be asking anything of them. You are so I'm a bit suspicious.

If what were the case people wouldn't be asking anything of them? If they didn't give everyone what they want? You pray to your God who you just said doesn't give people everything they want.
My point was that people in Wicca believe different things, just like Christians believe different things. For example, you think that other Gods exist & that's not generally a "Christian" belief. It's your belief.
I don't really get what you mean in the 2nd part of your entry.

[Darth Executor]

If what were the case people wouldn't be asking anything of them? If they didn't give everyone what they want? You pray to your God who you just said doesn't give people everything they want.

I don't pray asking for stuff.

For example, you think that other Gods exist & that's not generally a "Christian" belief.

The existance of other gods is not denied in the bible (in fact, i think it is subtly implied but I won't get into that.

It's your belief. I don't really get what you mean in the 2nd part of your entry.

What I mean is that if your gods only give you what you need why bother asking for anything?

[junipersilver]

I don't pray asking for stuff.



The existance of other gods is not denied in the bible (in fact, i think it is subtly implied but I won't get into that.



What I mean is that if your gods only give you what you need why bother asking for anything?

Probably mostly to make myself feel better. I think that's a big part of why prayer helps people. They feel that they are doing something to help their situation.
Don't get me wrong, it's not that prayer is only about asking for stuff, but for me that's part of it.
Just out of curiousity, what do you pray about most? I'm not trying to start another debate with this, I just want to know.

[Darth Executor]

I don't pray about anything, actually. To me, prayer is just focusing on my connection to God. Nothing I can explain with words.

[betzerg]

So praying is dangerous? Because that's what I consider spells. I don't see how praying could be dangerous. I'm sure their are many who pray not only without knowing 100% who's listening, but also many who pray that don't have a clue who's listening at all. I don't see how that's bad if it helps them feel better and maybe even helps their situation.

Two observations:

1.) According to Judaism the use of the LaShon Hora..the evil tongue...actually diminishes the light of HaShem in the world. It is the same as "murdering" another person and is a very negative thing. So...we see the same concept that speaking badly of another human being brings negativenesss to the earth.

And on the other hand...doing Tikkun Olam (acts of mitvah or good deeds), does not just bring help to the persons involved...Tikkun Olam, acts of loving Chesed ...actually restore the presence of HaShem to the earth.

In summary...our words do have power.

2.) I have met some "christians" who USE G-d, in a sense, to try and get what the want. "Please G-d, give me a raise, or a mercedez, or a winning lottery ticket" and I promise to .....Fill in the blank.... This is NOT prayer..this is a form of manipulation. Our prayers to HaShem are always mindful of HIS ORDER and HIS PURPOSES...not our own. This is most likely the biggest difference between prayer and spells. We ask HaShem for the things that HE has already told us we can ask for. I'm not sure,...in Magick spells...are the wishes of the god and goddess involved?

Shalom,

BETZER

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

I have met some "christians" who USE G-d, in a sense, to try and get what the want. "Please G-d, give me a raise, or a mercedez, or a winning lottery ticket" and I promise to .....Fill in the blank.... This is NOT prayer..this is a form of manipulation.
There are indeed Christian folks who treat God's power as if it was magical! Pray this prayer three times a day, pass this email on to ten other people, send me a donation of $50, and you will get (blank space here intentionally left blank).

Our prayers to HaShem are always mindful of HIS ORDER and HIS PURPOSES...not our own. This is most likely the biggest difference between prayer and spells.
Yes, I agree, and God's power cannot be used apart from God, Jesus called those who did "many wonderful works" in his name, apart from obedience to him, "workers of iniquity."

I'm not sure,...in Magick spells...are the wishes of the god and goddess involved?
That might be the definition of a Wiccan, but I don't think that's the meaning people tend to associate with spells! Just as applied science is indistinguishable from magic (applied working of nature), spells are applied working of supernature, this series of gestures and words and potions at this time brings this result.

Only we may note the fact that such spells are not infallible! In fact, they seem to fail more often than they work, indicating that indeed, there are other factors here, there are factors that tend to trip up spells in general, showing that even such power is not really in the hands of the spell-caster, not really, which is a basic idea in spells...

Blessings,
Lee

[tmancour]

There are indeed Christian folks who treat God's power as if it was magical! Pray this prayer three times a day, pass this email on to ten other people, send me a donation of $50, and you will get (blank space here intentionally left blank).


My point is that it IS magickal, from a "scientific" (thaumaturgic) point of view. That's easy to see when the requests are for material goods; but it also holds true for requests for healing, changing someone's heart, spiritual guidance, mystical enlightenment, and personal spiritual growth.


Yes, I agree, and God's power cannot be used apart from God, Jesus called those who did "many wonderful works" in his name, apart from obedience to him, "workers of iniquity."


Goddess, what an ego!



That might be the definition of a Wiccan, but I don't think that's the meaning people tend to associate with spells!

emphasis mine

Perhaps not in the mainstream, which has been tainted by a millenium of bad press about magick. The reality of the practice is a little different. To address the earlier point, the wishes of the God and the Goddess are always at play. But don't forget that the relationship between worshipper and deity is different in Paganism. Instead of throwing up all the decisions to "God's Will", the purpose of the relationship is to fully realize and develop the Divine Will of the worshipper. So instead of all powerful deities and insignificant, puny humans, the relationship is more like a mentor/student thing. So if you ask for something outrageous and not in your best interest, it is highly unlikely that the Goddess will see fit to help you out.

The Divine Will in Wicca and other overtly magickal western traditions is one of the most misunderstood subjects we deal with. It is the Will in the Rede, "An it harm none, do what thy Will". It isn't a justification for licentiousness. On the contrary, it is a call for the worshipper to discover that "One True Thing" that they were put here at this time to learn. It means if you want to be a concert pianist, and your dad wants you to go to welding school, you need to find a way to overcome your obstacles and become a concert pianist.

In general the gods cooperate with spells designed to further your Divine Will, and withhold their support of requests that go counter to this. But that doesn't mean that those requests are without merit, as we often learn far, far more from our mistakes than our successes.


Just as applied science is indistinguishable from magic (applied working of nature), spells are applied working of supernature, this series of gestures and words and potions at this time brings this result.


This is an overly simplistic and mechanistic view of spellcasting. While the symbolism of the mudra, mandala, and mantra are helpful, they are not, indeed, the thing that activates the spell. Magick is mental in nature, and if the psychology of the spellcaster is out of synch with the magickal "weather", then the desired effect is unlikely to occur. I would also dispute the idea that these workings are supernatural -- they are completely natural, just poorly understood -- a lot like electromagnatism before the 19th century. When it comes to the nature of the mind and congnative function we still have a lot to understand. But magick uses good "rule of thumb" engineering to accomplish things, without the need to understand the mechanism behind it.

That's left to us thaumaturges.


Only we may note the fact that such spells are not infallible! In fact, they seem to fail more often than they work, indicating that indeed, there are other factors here, there are factors that tend to trip up spells in general, showing that even such power is not really in the hands of the spell-caster, not really, which is a basic idea in spells...


You got that right, dude. But no one said spells were infallible -- just as prayer isn't infallible. I've hear Christians say "God answers all prayers; sometimes the answer is no." Same rule applies to magick. The point is not always the results; sometimes the process is just as important as the results.

And magick is used best when it is used sparingly, with wisdom. Trying to get the sun to stand still in the sky or similar cosmic workings are not only pointless, but they are so difficult that most good wizards wouldn't even attempt it. But doing a working to improve your chances of a favorable court verdict, on the other hand, can often have a beneficial effect.

But so can having a good attorney. The Wise wizard will have both.


Arion

[junipersilver]

I'm not sure,...in Magick spells...are the wishes of the god and goddess involved?

Shalom,

BETZER

I think that in a way the wishes of the God & Goddess are involved, but maybe they aren't the major influence? What I mean by they aren't the major influence is what they want is most important, but in most peoples opinion that's just that no one can be harmed. So after you follow that, you can pretty much go anywhere with the spell. What do you think about their wishes being involved?

[betzerg]

I think that in a way the wishes of the God & Goddess are involved, but maybe they aren't the major influence? What I mean by they aren't the major influence is what they want is most important, but in most peoples opinion that's just that no one can be harmed. So after you follow that, you can pretty much go anywhere with the spell. What do you think about their wishes being involved?

Another question:

Can a spell or incantation CAUSE someone to do something other than what they have intended to do, ie. LOVE SPELLS>

IF so, this seems a violation of free will and a higher form of manipulation than just prayer. So what is the purpose of spells? Because currently it seems very SELF-GRANDIZING and selfish.

BETZER

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Another question:

Can a spell or incantation CAUSE someone to do something other than what they have intended to do, ie. LOVE SPELLS>

IF so, this seems a violation of free will and a higher form of manipulation than just prayer. So what is the purpose of spells? Because currently it seems very SELF-GRANDIZING and selfish.

BETZER
Love spells work differently, they work at binding you to the other person making you tink about them often until you cant help but want to be with them. there are differing view on the love spell within the pagan communitty, Personally, I avoid them like the plague. I won't cast them and when I find one cast on me I cleanse myself Immediately. That kid of Magic is very dangerous becauser it create stalkers in a big hurry. And they are a real bear to Undo. Never mind the chaos you put that poor recipient through.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: There are indeed Christian folks who treat God's power as if it was magical! Pray this prayer three times a day, pass this email on to ten other people, send me a donation of $50, and you will get (blank space here intentionally left blank).

Arion: My point is that it IS magickal, from a "scientific" (thaumaturgic) point of view. That's easy to see when the requests are for material goods; but it also holds true for requests for healing, changing someone's heart, spiritual guidance, mystical enlightenment, and personal spiritual growth.
It's not magical if it doesn't work! As demonstrated by the blessing-promisers being the only ones driving up to the meetings in the gold Cadillac. Certainly God does answer prayers for provision, for healing, for blessings, yet not like a machine would! This is not mechanical, though people would try and treat it this way, there are no Christian spells.

Leviticus 19:26 Do not practice divination or sorcery.

Lee: Jesus called those who did "many wonderful works" in his name, apart from obedience to him, "workers of iniquity."

Arion: Goddess, what an ego!
Well, if the source of this power says his power cannot be used in that way, then we may reasonably conclude his power cannot be used apart from obeying him, that was the point being argued for here.

Arion: In general the gods cooperate with spells designed to further your Divine Will, and withhold their support of requests that go counter to this.
Then let's not call them spells, which people understand as saying something different. Just call them prayers! We don't really need two different words for these similar concepts...

Blessings,
Lee

[betzerg]

Love spells work differently, they work at binding you to the other person making you tink about them often until you cant help but want to be with them. there are differing view on the love spell within the pagan communitty, Personally, I avoid them like the plague. I won't cast them and when I find one cast on me I cleanse myself Immediately. That kid of Magic is very dangerous becauser it create stalkers in a big hurry. And they are a real bear to Undo. Never mind the chaos you put that poor recipient through.

Exactly...and this is the danger of spells vrs. Prayer...

What of those who don't know about the "cleansing" thing...Isn't it just WRONG to try to manipulate someone elses' thinking process through a magickal incantation. This is why hebrew scriptures says "manipulation is a sin next to witchcraft". It is all well and good to find a wiccan who only does spells that are "good" and or "valuable"....but then we read that G-d is the one who makes the ultimate decisions about those who belong to HIM. It is HE who brings blessing and curses.

I'm really not even sure what you can use a "good" spell for. Can you explain what that kind of a spell would look like.????

Shalom,

BETZER

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Exactly...and this is the danger of spells vrs. Prayer...

What of those who don't know about the "cleansing" thing...Isn't it just WRONG to try to manipulate someone elses' thinking process through a magickal incantation. This is why hebrew scriptures says "manipulation is a sin next to witchcraft". It is all well and good to find a wiccan who only does spells that are "good" and or "valuable"....but then we read that G-d is the one who makes the ultimate decisions about those who belong to HIM. It is HE who brings blessing and curses.

I'm really not even sure what you can use a "good" spell for. Can you explain what that kind of a spell would look like.????

Shalom,

BETZER
It's all about the intent.
Magic and Prayer are similar because both rey on chants, songs, movements, and symbols to work them.
"Pleading the blood of Jesus" is a metaphorical act, you dont really PUT jesus' blood over soemthing but you use the symbolism of the blood to cleans ore protect you from something bad.
Within My understanding of paganism, People who dont know how to cleanse themselves are kind of out of luck. It is up to the person to learn how to protect themselves not only physically (Learning at least how to throw a puch or kick someone in the doodads) but also mentally and spiritually.
The use of magic is just like any other dicipline such as the martial arts. Some people use that knowledge for good, others use that knowledge for Not so good purposes, it is all in the intent with which you use it.
Example: My Mother inlaw wound up marrying a man who by all accounts was a great guy, he was a minister, a scholar and a therapist. All of her family including myself are no slouches when it comes to reading people, well a couple years later it turned out the guy was a greedy, two timing jerk who was more interested in a position in ministry than actully Doing the work of the ministry. He wound up cheating and stealing from her and He hurt ALL of us in the process.
I knew that if He continued to remain in her life she would be miserable so I did a spell to get him out of her life. Long story short, He is out, and He hasnt been back since. My Mother in law is now a free woman and a little more wiser.

[tmancour]

What of those who don't know about the "cleansing" thing...Isn't it just WRONG to try to manipulate someone elses' thinking process through a magickal incantation.


Well, yes, it is. That's why an experienced and reputable witch knows better than to muck around with THAT kind of love spell. Not to mention the fact they have a tendancy to blow up in the spellcaster's face. The very first spell I ever tried was that kind of spell and it worked great -- for a week. Then things got so bad that I never tried a manipulation spell again. There was no lasting harm and it taught me a valuable lesson.

Most good love spells (I collect them) focus on improving the self-image and self-confidence of the caster, or work to allow the possibility of love into someone's life. I've done plenty of both. But manipulation like that runs counter to the spirit of the Rede, and therefore shouldn't be attempted without a willingness to accept the inevitable messy consequences.


This is why hebrew scriptures says "manipulation is a sin next to witchcraft". It is all well and good to find a wiccan who only does spells that are "good" and or "valuable"....but then we read that G-d is the one who makes the ultimate decisions about those who belong to HIM. It is HE who brings blessing and curses.


In your book, yeah. Not in mine.


I'm really not even sure what you can use a "good" spell for. Can you explain what that kind of a spell would look like.????


There are tons of perfectly good, morally correct spells that involve warding, protection, healing, self-realization, winning legal cases, removing pimples and warts, finding lost pets and car keys, finding a good parking spot, granting confidence to speak in public, attracting a soul-mate, protecting your comics against pests, acheiving weight loss goals, working for world peace, keeping Jehovah's Witnesses from banging on your door, protecting your kids from accidents, ensuring a positive verdict in a court case, avoiding detection of radar-gun toting police, making your whites come out whiter than white, convincing the President not to be such an ass, healing the Earth, attracting faeries, repelling faeries, keeping your chimney from catching on fire, convincing your advisor to sign your registration form, bring spice back to a failing marriage, clense a kitchen of negative influences brought on by a particularly bad lasagna, and much, much more.

Arion

[lee_merrill]

... ensuring a positive verdict in a court case...
What if both sides cast a spell for this, may I ask?

Blessings,
Lee

[betzerg]

It's all about the intent.
Magic and Prayer are similar because both rey on chants, songs, movements, and symbols to work them.
"Pleading the blood of Jesus" is a metaphorical act, you dont really PUT jesus' blood over soemthing but you use the symbolism of the blood to cleans ore protect you from something bad.
Within My understanding of paganism, People who dont know how to cleanse themselves are kind of out of luck. It is up to the person to learn how to protect themselves not only physically (Learning at least how to throw a puch or kick someone in the doodads) but also mentally and spiritually.
The use of magic is just like any other dicipline such as the martial arts. Some people use that knowledge for good, others use that knowledge for Not so good purposes, it is all in the intent with which you use it.
Example: My Mother inlaw wound up marrying a man who by all accounts was a great guy, he was a minister, a scholar and a therapist. All of her family including myself are no slouches when it comes to reading people, well a couple years later it turned out the guy was a greedy, two timing jerk who was more interested in a position in ministry than actully Doing the work of the ministry. He wound up cheating and stealing from her and He hurt ALL of us in the process.
I knew that if He continued to remain in her life she would be miserable so I did a spell to get him out of her life. Long story short, He is out, and He hasnt been back since. My Mother in law is now a free woman and a little more wiser.

I see....so your spell freed your mother in law of her own stupidity and cleansed this man of the evil that influenced his life and others....NO???
NO, you say. This is the problem with magick...intellect, wisdom, doing the right thing...this is SO SO SO much more powerful than spells. When man can see his mistakes....this is a MIRACLE.

I guess spells will have to do if one lack understanding and wisdom...or the recepiant lacks the capablity to understand right from wrong....but in my book the PRINCIPLES on which we build our life are more influential to others than any kind of SPELL...can ever accomplish.

And sorry about your mother in laws bad luck.

Shalom

BETZER

[betzerg]

Well, yes, it is. That's why an experienced and reputable witch knows better than to muck around with THAT kind of love spell. Not to mention the fact they have a tendancy to blow up in the spellcaster's face. The very first spell I ever tried was that kind of spell and it worked great -- for a week. Then things got so bad that I never tried a manipulation spell again. There was no lasting harm and it taught me a valuable lesson.

Most good love spells (I collect them) focus on improving the self-image and self-confidence of the caster, or work to allow the possibility of love into someone's life. I've done plenty of both. But manipulation like that runs counter to the spirit of the Rede, and therefore shouldn't be attempted without a willingness to accept the inevitable messy consequences.



In your book, yeah. Not in mine.



There are tons of perfectly good, morally correct spells that involve warding, protection, healing, self-realization, winning legal cases, removing pimples and warts, finding lost pets and car keys, finding a good parking spot, granting confidence to speak in public, attracting a soul-mate, protecting your comics against pests, acheiving weight loss goals, working for world peace, keeping Jehovah's Witnesses from banging on your door, protecting your kids from accidents, ensuring a positive verdict in a court case, avoiding detection of radar-gun toting police, making your whites come out whiter than white, convincing the President not to be such an ass, healing the Earth, attracting faeries, repelling faeries, keeping your chimney from catching on fire, convincing your advisor to sign your registration form, bring spice back to a failing marriage, clense a kitchen of negative influences brought on by a particularly bad lasagna, and much, much more.

Arion

Most of these things are "cured" with a good education and some common sense.

The others are magickal thinking with no proven results...I know several wiccans who have had terrible accidents...fires in the home...for one...a son in a car wreck..for another.

And as for attracting faeries...I'll have to think about that one. Relating to humans seems to be quite enough for me.

shalom,

BETZER

[Darth Executor]

It's all about the intent.
Magic and Prayer are similar because both rey on chants, songs, movements, and symbols to work them.
"Pleading the blood of Jesus" is a metaphorical act, you dont really PUT jesus' blood over soemthing but you use the symbolism of the blood to cleans ore protect you from something bad.
Within My understanding of paganism, People who dont know how to cleanse themselves are kind of out of luck. It is up to the person to learn how to protect themselves not only physically (Learning at least how to throw a puch or kick someone in the doodads) but also mentally and spiritually.
The use of magic is just like any other dicipline such as the martial arts. Some people use that knowledge for good, others use that knowledge for Not so good purposes, it is all in the intent with which you use it.
Example: My Mother inlaw wound up marrying a man who by all accounts was a great guy, he was a minister, a scholar and a therapist. All of her family including myself are no slouches when it comes to reading people, well a couple years later it turned out the guy was a greedy, two timing jerk who was more interested in a position in ministry than actully Doing the work of the ministry. He wound up cheating and stealing from her and He hurt ALL of us in the process.
I knew that if He continued to remain in her life she would be miserable so I did a spell to get him out of her life. Long story short, He is out, and He hasnt been back since. My Mother in law is now a free woman and a little more wiser.


Oh man your mother in law got scammed and get this, Cu needed to cast a spell to free her. What were the odds that she would have left him regardless of Cu's spells? Must have been astronomically low. :ahem:

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Oh man your mother in law got scammed and get this, Cu needed to cast a spell to free her. What were the odds that she would have left him regardless of Cu's spells? Must have been astronomically low. :ahem:
Before the spell He kept trying to call her to get money from her, He also tried to do some other things to her which would have wound up costing her alot more of her sanity. Oh yeah let's not forget that this guy was extremely manipulative.
After the spell His life completely fell apart to the point where He wants nothing to do with her at all. yeah I think it worked.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

I see....so your spell freed your mother in law of her own stupidity and cleansed this man of the evil that influenced his life and others....NO???
NO, you say. This is the problem with magick...intellect, wisdom, doing the right thing...this is SO SO SO much more powerful than spells. When man can see his mistakes....this is a MIRACLE.

I guess spells will have to do if one lack understanding and wisdom...or the recepiant lacks the capablity to understand right from wrong....but in my book the PRINCIPLES on which we build our life are more influential to others than any kind of SPELL...can ever accomplish.

And sorry about your mother in laws bad luck.

Shalom

BETZER
In other words your book contains principles to practice your magic. your book also recommends that you kill witches, not to eat shellfish, pork, and to allow rapists to marry their victims. Sorry I prefer My religion better, At least I can work magic with out all the manipulative mindgames that your religion seems to thrive on.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

At least I can work magic with out all the manipulative mindgames that your religion seems to thrive on.
Isn't a spell a type of manipulation, though?

In other words your book contains principles to practice your magic. your book also recommends that you kill witches, not to eat shellfish, pork, and to allow rapists to marry their victims.
This marriage could indeed be refused, though (Ex. 22:17). Pork actually must be cooked properly, in order to be free of trichinosis, cooking over an open fire might not assure that.

And some spell-casters claim they can make people mad (read: insane), with spells! Is it true? I may have encountered such a spell, myself. What would be an appropriate penalty, for wielding a weapon like that?

You can kill people with this power, actually. Not too many yesterdays back, in another thread here, someone was claiming that there wouldn't even be any feathers left, if they were to shoot the spell-gun...

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes." Obi-Wan Kenobi
And this is ... absolutely true?

Blessings,
Lee

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Nope a spell is simply using tools to help you and others. No different than you praying.

Oh yeah the marraige can be refused It still does not change the fact that this LAW EXISTS to begin with, the bride cannot refuse the marriage the decision is left up to the father. In other words, as usual with your religion, the woman has no say over her own destiny.
17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins. The rapist is NOT punished, He simply has to pay the "Bride Price" No incarceration, no death penalty, not even castration. Just a sum of gold and a "Boys will be boys".

And some spell-casters claim they can make people mad (read: insane), with spells! Is it true? I may have encountered such a spell, myself. What would be an appropriate penalty, for wielding a weapon like that? If the person actively tried to drive someone insane it would depend on a) what the reason was. (IE Self Defence?) and B)Whether or not there was proof of some kind of the spell work.


You can kill people with this power, actually. Not too many yesterdays back, in another thread here, someone was claiming that there wouldn't even be any feathers left, if they were to shoot the spell-gun...Which can safely be said to be a bunch of Hooey. an example of someone who has played way too much D+D and desperatel;y needs the attentions of a "friendly" girl.
As to the Quote from star wars, I wouldnt know I dont deal with any Sith.

[betzerg]

In other words your book contains principles to practice your magic. your book also recommends that you kill witches, not to eat shellfish, pork, and to allow rapists to marry their victims. Sorry I prefer My religion better, At least I can work magic with out all the manipulative mindgames that your religion seems to thrive on.

No, My BOOK forbids the practice of magic. Though prayer and magick do look similiar, they are of totally different principles. When you look at the sorcerers of Egypt and compare them with MOSES...you find that while it looks as if they have the same source...the pagans definitely come in second place. Because HaShem has order and reasonableness to his "laws"..*.ie. shellfish is not really food, you're angry? You see....G-d created certain FUNCTIONS for all of his creation. SCAVENGERS clean up debris and have thier purpose...but being food for humans is not one of them. G-d KNOWS this because HE CREATED THEM. So to keep his people healty he makes a distiction between what "looks like food" and what is "valueablely real food".........

In fact...G-d visited back on Egypt what their own sorcery had established.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Darth Executor]

No, My BOOK forbids the practice of magic. Though prayer and magick do look similiar, they are of totally different principles. When you look at the sorcerers of Egypt and compare them with MOSES...you find that while it looks as if they have the same source...the pagans definitely come in second place. Because HaShem has order and reasonableness to his "laws"..*.ie. shellfish is not really food, you're angry? You see....G-d created certain FUNCTIONS for all of his creation. SCAVENGERS clean up debris and have thier purpose...but being food for humans is not one of them. G-d KNOWS this because HE CREATED THEM. So to keep his people healty he makes a distiction between what "looks like food" and what is "valueablely real food".........

In fact...G-d visited back on Egypt what their own sorcery had established.

Shalom,

BETZER


Biblical sorcery is basically invoking the aid of gods other than Yahweh. It's no different from praying.

[betzerg]

Biblical sorcery is basically invoking the aid of gods other than Yahweh. It's no different from praying.

Oh contrare...it was just stated that spells can be "evil" and "destructive" so there must be some difference. That you can't see that is an indication that you have a misconstrued view of prayer and the G-d of the bible.

invoking G-d is NOT the purpose of prayer. The purpose of prayer is to bring G-d's presense into the world to accomplish HIS purposes according to HIS WILL. Prayer other than this is witchraft. WE ask G-d,( because His will has stated that "I will heal your diseases") to heal our sickness...we ask G-d to forgive our sins...because he has made a promise that he would do so.

G-d has never indicated that he wants us to "make" someone else love us or that we have a right to change the free will statis of another human being.
I can see how some "chrismatic" approaches to G-d can make one perceive that prayer uses G-d in a magical way to get what one wants....but this is not TRUELY PRAYER.....this is witchraft.

Shalom,

BETZER

[tmancour]

Most of these things are "cured" with a good education and some common sense.


We call it Wisdom, and it goes hand-in-hand with magick. We elevate that to the status of sacrament, however, and not leave it as a mere virtue.


The others are magickal thinking with no proven results...I know several wiccans who have had terrible accidents...fires in the home...for one...a son in a car wreck..for another.

Sure, bad things happen to good Pagans. The best anti-fire spell in the world is not going to impede the fates if they decide that your house should burn down, nor is magick a substitute for wisdom. But using magick to augment already sound preparedness is wisdom, too. Every little bit of advantage helps.

But bad things happen to good Abrahamics, too. Plenty of blessed and consecrated buildings have burned, and plenty of believing Abrahamics have met their end violently -- usually at the hands of other Abrahamics.


And as for attracting faeries...I'll have to think about that one. Relating to humans seems to be quite enough for me.



Actually, for me as well. I'm not the faerie-keeping kind of witch. But there are those who have elaborate relationship with them, and I felt compelled to include them without judging as to the efficacy of the spells.

[Darth Executor]

Oh contrare...it was just stated that spells can be "evil" and "destructive" so there must be some difference. That you can't see that is an indication that you have a misconstrued view of prayer and the G-d of the bible.

I don't think so.

invoking G-d is NOT the purpose of prayer.

It's not the only purpose but somebody needs to read his psalms again. Do you really think nobody ever requests God's aid through prayer?

The purpose of prayer is to bring G-d's presense into the world to accomplish HIS purposes according to HIS WILL.

And this differs from invoking God how? You don't need to invoke God for selfish reasons.

Prayer other than this is witchraft. WE ask G-d,( because His will has stated that "I will heal your diseases") to heal our sickness...we ask G-d to forgive our sins...because he has made a promise that he would do so.

No, prayer to other gods is witchcraft. On the other hand, I believe that prayer for anything misses the point unless you are a saint as dictated by the church (IE, almost sinless).

G-d has never indicated that he wants us to "make" someone else love us or that we have a right to change the free will statis of another human being.

I guess somebody should tell the desperate old ladies whose children have fallen into sin to stop praying for them because they're satan worshipping witches.

I can see how some "chrismatic" approaches to G-d can make one perceive that prayer uses G-d in a magical way to get what one wants....but this is not TRUELY PRAYER.....this is witchraft.

Depends on who you are. Christ said that if you have enough faith you can tell mountains to move. I believe Him.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Oh yeah the marraige can be refused. It still does not change the fact that this LAW EXISTS to begin with, the bride cannot refuse the marriage the decision is left up to the father.
Well, let's not get too far afield, but not all laws are at the boundary between sinning and not sinning!

Matthew 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

But we were talking about spells...

If the person actively tried to drive someone insane it would depend on a) what the reason was. (IE Self Defence?) and B)Whether or not there was proof of some kind of the spell work.
That's just the problem with a count on an indictment of casting a spell, though, isn't it? What evidence can you bring that a person cast an invisible, inaudible spell on person X, quite possibly while chatting pleasantly with a friend on the other side of town?

Which points out the other problem with witchcraft, that if it is indeed real, it is like what people do in imagining retributions in their thoughts. Need it be said that people do not usually conduct a fair trial before carrying out their imagined punishments? This indicates that the power of witchcraft would be just as tempting to use in the wrong way, as vengeful thoughts are in our imaginations, which implies it should not be used, at all.

There are other reasons this power should be avoided! But that's one of them. If you disagree, I will only ask if you have ever conducted a fair trial, before imagining a retribution for someone in your thoughts...

Lee: You can kill people with this power, actually. Not too many yesterdays back, in another thread here, someone was claiming that there wouldn't even be any feathers left, if they were to shoot the spell-gun...

Cu: Which can safely be said to be a bunch of Hooey. an example of someone who has played way too much D+D ...
It was Cu who said this (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51819&page=1), actually: "You dont get it, you dont use a 50mm canon to go shooting Ducks (There wont even be feathers left), or a bunker buster to do demolition (you will blow up many city blocks.) I am not about to waste the energy or the time to cast a spell on you because quite frankly you havent done anything so annoying..."

As to the Quote from star wars, I wouldnt know I dont deal with any Sith.
But you are dealing with a person who believes in absolutes, and I mention this because almost invariably, when people make a statement espousing relative values, they will make an absolute statement...

Blessings,
Lee

[tmancour]

Oh contrare...it was just stated that spells can be "evil" and "destructive" so there must be some difference. That you can't see that is an indication that you have a misconstrued view of prayer and the G-d of the bible.


Actually, it is you who have a misconstrued view of Magick and Wisdom. Spells, in and of themselves, are not evil, although like any natural force they can be destructive.

So can Jehovah, as you pointed out when you spoke of him visiting misery on the Egyptians. Ramses' priests call down destructive magick from their gods and they are sorcerers. Moses calls down destructive magick from his god and he's a holy man. Indeed, Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, which means he was educated in temple schools, where he learned Egyptian "sorcery". He was no doubt completely conversant in the ancient and prestigious Egyptian schools of magick when he met Jehovah in a smouldering shrubbery and found a new power source. No doubt he was a little miffed at the Egyptian pantheon, who exiled him, and needed a some new juice. This faceless god of the nomads worked with his anger and his bitterness and allowed him to come back and wreck genocidal vengeance.

But that's not sorcery.


invoking G-d is NOT the purpose of prayer. The purpose of prayer is to bring G-d's presense into the world to accomplish HIS purposes according to HIS WILL.

You'd think that wouldn't be necessary for an omnipotant, omniscient deity.

Our gods are already within the world. Their Will is that we learn and have fun. Pretty straightforward.



Prayer other than this is witchraft. WE ask G-d,( because His will has stated that "I will heal your diseases") to heal our sickness...we ask G-d to forgive our sins...because he has made a promise that he would do so.


So we ask our gods to help us, it's sorcery. You ask your god for help, it's divine intervention.


G-d has never indicated that he wants us to "make" someone else love us or that we have a right to change the free will statis of another human being.


Then why all the gospel spreading and proselytizing? I've seen some pretty severe acts of coercion done under the guise of evangelical fervor. Their attitude is usually "Yes, yo uhave the right of a free will -- as long as you exercise it to join us. Otherwise you are damned and it doesn't really matter to me what happens to you." Proselytizing is one of the scariest, most potent forms of Christian magick there is. Using the end of saving a soul can justify pretty much any means -- including murder, genocide, coercion, kidnapping, and economic devestation.



I can see how some "chrismatic" approaches to G-d can make one perceive that prayer uses G-d in a magical way to get what one wants....but this is not TRUELY PRAYER.....this is witchraft.


Wow, then these "witches" wear crosses, build churches, post the ten commandments on public buildings, lobby against pornography, protest abortion clinics, and vote Republican. 'Cause there is a whole lot of praying to Jehovah going on, where the invokations involve not only rewarding the faithful materially (in order to further Jehovah's Divine Will) but also the smiting of their theological enemies.

To us, it's just more Abrahamic magick.

And it is distinctly unethical, not to mention usually futile and almost always an unwise, bad idea, for a witch to use a spell to change someone's mind. Words are usually more persuasive and effective. But yes, there are some instances where direct manipulation of a person's mind is warrented: the semi-legendary Lammas Night Working during WWII, where all the magickal lodges and witchcraft circles combined to alter Hitler's mind and get him to stop bombing British airfields (he turned instead to bombing civilian populations -- which allowed the RAF to keep flying and keep an invasion at bay) comes to mind. But there were consequences to those actions, and very dire ones.

[betzerg]

Actually, it is you who have a misconstrued view of Magick and Wisdom. Spells, in and of themselves, are not evil, although like any natural force they can be destructive.

A previous post cited the ability to "cleanse" oneself from bad spells as a necessity makes me wonder just how destructive spells can be.

So can Jehovah, as you pointed out when you spoke of him visiting misery on the Egyptians. Ramses' priests call down destructive magick from their gods and they are sorcerers. Moses calls down destructive magick from his god and he's a holy man. Indeed, Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, which means he was educated in temple schools, where he learned Egyptian "sorcery". He was no doubt completely conversant in the ancient and prestigious Egyptian schools of magick when he met Jehovah in a smouldering shrubbery and found a new power source. No doubt he was a little miffed at the Egyptian pantheon, who exiled him, and needed a some new juice. This faceless god of the nomads worked with his anger and his bitterness and allowed him to come back and wreck genocidal vengeance.

I think you need to re-read the account. Moses does not tell G-d what to do. In fact, it is the sorcerers own words that incur judgement on Egypt. Wht they wish to happen to israel happens right back to them....IN other words....the lesser gods of the egyptians must submit to the rule of G-d.

It is a bit presumptiouss to assume that Moses practiced magick. There is no evidence of such. And If you read the story again you will find that Moses was not looking for a "power source."..G-d had chosen Moses since birth to deliver the Hebrews from the bondage of the Egyptians. Moses was not looking for a "power source" , in fact, he at first inclination wanted to decline the role of deliverer. And if you remember...(or have you read the account) that MOSES did not have a faceless G-d....he spoke with HaShem face to face, as a man speaks to his brother.

But that's not sorcery

RIGHT..



You'd think that wouldn't be necessary for an omnipotant, omniscient deity.

Our gods are already within the world. Their Will is that we learn and have fun. Pretty straightforward.

YHVH is outside of space and time...He created the universe and all that is in it. Which includes your gods...so even they are subject to HIM. Seems strange that the jews make up LESS than one percent of the population and they are responsible for over ...OVER 40 percent of the noble prizes. So...even in the area of learn do jews outshine pagans. AS for fun...fun is a bit arbitrary. JOYFULLNESS and CONTENTMENT are the fruits of HaShem's ways.




So we ask our gods to help us, it's sorcery. You ask your god for help, it's divine intervention.

Asking your gods to "help" you....right. The difference...you make the decision in the area of what you wish to accomplish. Even christians are taught to pray "Not my will, but yours be done".



Then why all the gospel spreading and proselytizing? I've seen some pretty severe acts of coercion done under the guise of evangelical fervor. Their attitude is usually "Yes, yo uhave the right of a free will -- as long as you exercise it to join us. Otherwise you are damned and it doesn't really matter to me what happens to you." Proselytizing is one of the scariest, most potent forms of Christian magick there is. Using the end of saving a soul can justify pretty much any means -- including murder, genocide, coercion, kidnapping, and economic devestation.

Jews do not proselytize. We have never instigated a pogram, a crusade, a holocost. IN fact, Jews believe that all those who do good have a place in the world to come. Those who disagree with us...not an issue...because Judasim is not about "theology' ...it's about DOING what is right. Tikkun Olam...to heal the world...is a major concern of judaism. Doing mitvah's...making the world a better place.

Did you think I was "christian".????




Wow, then these "witches" wear crosses, build churches, post the ten commandments on public buildings, lobby against pornography, protest abortion clinics, and vote Republican. 'Cause there is a whole lot of praying to Jehovah going on, where the invokations involve not only rewarding the faithful materially (in order to further Jehovah's Divine Will) but also the smiting of their theological enemies.

I think those who use manipulation techniques are not the "average" christian. Most christians, as I have said before adapt the view of "no my will but yours be done".

To us, it's just more Abrahamic magick.

And it is distinctly unethical, not to mention usually futile and almost always an unwise, bad idea, for a witch to use a spell to change someone's mind. Words are usually more persuasive and effective. But yes, there are some instances where direct manipulation of a person's mind is warrented: the semi-legendary Lammas Night Working during WWII, where all the magickal lodges and witchcraft circles combined to alter Hitler's mind and get him to stop bombing British airfields (he turned instead to bombing civilian populations -- which allowed the RAF to keep flying and keep an invasion at bay) comes to mind. But there were consequences to those actions, and very dire ones.



what is "unethical" to a pagan. Do god and goddess give instructions? ARe there "rules" in paganism. How are the ethics of pagans determined. Manipulation of a persons mind is not possible. You pagans sound more like calvanists all the time. G-d gave all men free will. Fatalism (or predestination) is not an acceptable understanding in judaism. And if pagan spells are so powerful...why is Bush still in office?

I once had a pagan who used "black magic" threaten to put a spell on me. Nothing ever came of it...but two months later...he tried to committ suicide. This pagan stuff is dangerous...and in the hands of unstable, guilable people it is very destructive. G-d asks that all of us live according to certain principles of compassion and acceptance...you don't find any principles in wiccan thought...at least not conistent ones. Sorry about your bad luck.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Darth Executor]

I once had a pagan who used "black magic" threaten to put a spell on me. Nothing ever came of it...but two months later...he tried to committ suicide.

:lol: This is why I like being a Christian. Huge magic resistance bonus.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hi everyone,


Well, let's not get too far afield, but not all laws are at the boundary between sinning and not sinning!

Matthew 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

But we were talking about spells...


That's just the problem with a count on an indictment of casting a spell, though, isn't it? What evidence can you bring that a person cast an invisible, inaudible spell on person X, quite possibly while chatting pleasantly with a friend on the other side of town?

Which points out the other problem with witchcraft, that if it is indeed real, it is like what people do in imagining retributions in their thoughts. Need it be said that people do not usually conduct a fair trial before carrying out their imagined punishments? This indicates that the power of witchcraft would be just as tempting to use in the wrong way, as vengeful thoughts are in our imaginations, which implies it should not be used, at all.

There are other reasons this power should be avoided! But that's one of them. If you disagree, I will only ask if you have ever conducted a fair trial, before imagining a retribution for someone in your thoughts...


It was Cu who said this (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=51819&page=1), actually: "You dont get it, you dont use a 50mm canon to go shooting Ducks (There wont even be feathers left), or a bunker buster to do demolition (you will blow up many city blocks.) I am not about to waste the energy or the time to cast a spell on you because quite frankly you havent done anything so annoying..."


But you are dealing with a person who believes in absolutes, and I mention this because almost invariably, when people make a statement espousing relative values, they will make an absolute statement...

Blessings,
Lee
Lee, the difference between an abrahamic and a sith, is that there are (According to the books) No good Sith. while good christian fundies (Though Rare) do exist.

As to My Allusion to the use of High Powered weaponry for Hunting, If you actually Look at the context of that staterment (I know that context is really difficult for fundies to grasp so I will speak slowly). This was about you being a Dummy and daring one of Witches to cast a spell on you. If you recall we witches kept refusing and finally I pointed out to you, that FOR ME to cast a spell on you, I would have to be extremely Mad at you. and when I cast spells (As in the case of My MOther in law's Ex-husband) My spells tend to be a bit destructive. WHY? because I have a very destructive side to My anger which I am still working to keep in check. It also translates into My magic especially if it is against a really STUPID individual who has done something so horrendous, I have no other choice but to work magic against them. Which means that Me casting a spell on YOU would be like using a 50mm gun to go shooting Ducks. Or using a Bunker Buster to do some demolition. I get some really nasty results when I do spell work AGAINST someone. (For some one on the other hand I tend to get more moderate things happening.) When I was a pentecostal My "Prayers" worked the exact same way. Especially when There was an ENORMOUS amount of energy gathered and raised during worship. Essentially In Pentecost, and in Paganism, you both rely on raising up energy but through different means. Only in the case of Pentecost you dont properly disperse the energy once you are done with it.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Cu,

Lee, the difference between an abrahamic and a sith, is that there are (According to the books) No good Sith. while good christian fundies (Though Rare) do exist.
Well, whether fundies are good, or bad, or even fun! The question still must remain, are there absolute values? It seems there are, given the insistence on absolute values that people do have, even when they are espousing relative ones!

Essentially In Pentecost, and in Paganism, you both rely on raising up energy but through different means. Only in the case of Pentecost you dont properly disperse the energy once you are done with it.
Well, no, God's power can't just be wielded! There is an essential difference, all exercise of God's power, has, at its root, a request. Not like this:

Acts 8:19 "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

Read the rest of what follows, to see Peter's response! But it is instead, like this:

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

1 Kings 18:42-44 But Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees. "Go and look toward the sea," he told his servant. And he went up and looked. "There is nothing there," he said. Seven times Elijah said, "Go back." The seventh time the servant reported, "A cloud as small as a man's hand is rising from the sea." So Elijah said, "Go and tell Ahab, 'Hitch up your chariot and go down before the rain stops you.'"

John 15:16 Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name...

And this is therefore not raising energy, and therefore not a spell...

Blessings,
Lee

[technomage]

Only in the case of Pentecost you dont properly disperse the energy once you are done with it.

Almost completely off topic--but this doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a problem in Pentecostal churches: from what I've seen, it's mostly when someone attempts Pentecostal-style working outside of consecrated ground. However, that may just be the particular Pentecostal churches I had experience with.
.

[Cynic Sage]

:lol: This is why I like being a Christian. Huge magic resistance bonus.

Magic resistance for Xtians:

Evangelist +3

Apologist Elf +3

Preterist Mage +6

Baptist +4

Dark Baptist +8

Theologian +7

Arminian Assasin +5

Calvinist Archer +4

Dispensational Dwarf +1

Unitarian -17

[Darth Executor]

So can Jehovah, as you pointed out when you spoke of him visiting misery on the Egyptians. Ramses' priests call down destructive magick from their gods and they are sorcerers. Moses calls down destructive magick from his god and he's a holy man. Indeed, Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, which means he was educated in temple schools, where he learned Egyptian "sorcery". He was no doubt completely conversant in the ancient and prestigious Egyptian schools of magick when he met Jehovah in a smouldering shrubbery and found a new power source. No doubt he was a little miffed at the Egyptian pantheon, who exiled him, and needed a some new juice. This faceless god of the nomads worked with his anger and his bitterness and allowed him to come back and wreck genocidal vengeance.

But that's not sorcery.


It's not actually. Moses was doing God's will, not the other way around. God rained death on the Egyptians for His own purpose, not Moses's. Moses didn't even want to lead Israel.

[Darth Executor]

Magic resistance for Xtians:

Evangelist +3

Apologist Elf +3

Preterist Mage +6

Baptist +4

Dark Baptist +8

Theologian +7

Arminian Assasin +5

Calvinist Archer +4

Dispensational Dwarf +1

Unitarian -17

Bleh, all protestants.

Greek Orthodox: +10, +2 spell reflection

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Almost completely off topic--but this doesn't seem to be nearly as much of a problem in Pentecostal churches: from what I've seen, it's mostly when someone attempts Pentecostal-style working outside of consecrated ground. However, that may just be the particular Pentecostal churches I had experience with.
.
Justin, Alot of the pentecostal churches I went to NEVER dispersed the energy they raised. (They said it "Quenched the Holy Spirit") Plus it was very Addictive to keep that kind of energy around you (Speaking as an ex-pentecostal) So it was raised and raised often (Especially in bible school). you were also expected to keep your own energy raised up through prayer and reading the word and other things.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hi Cu,
Well, whether fundies are good, or bad, or even fun! The question still must remain, are there absolute values? It seems there are, given the insistence on absolute values that people do have, even when they are espousing relative ones! I can ONly Speak for Myself Lee and My own Ethics. and while Mine are somewhat stern, (No cheating on the MRS., no lying IF it was not for a good cause like saving someone's life, No excessive Drinking, etc.) they are MY ethics based on MY experiences. I cannot say ask My High Priestess to live by the rules I set for myself. I cannot even ask a fellow Devotee of Morrigan to Live by the rules I set for myself. Why? They have a different set of experiences and challenges than I do. Nor can I or Should I tell someone else to live by a system of Morals that I Myself Dont live up to. nor should anyone do that to me.


Well, no, God's power can't just be wielded! There is an essential difference, all exercise of God's power, has, at its root, a request. Not like this:

Acts 8:19 "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

Read the rest of what follows, to see Peter's response! But it is instead, like this:

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

1 Kings 18:42-44 But Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees. "Go and look toward the sea," he told his servant. And he went up and looked. "There is nothing there," he said. Seven times Elijah said, "Go back." The seventh time the servant reported, "A cloud as small as a man's hand is rising from the sea." So Elijah said, "Go and tell Ahab, 'Hitch up your chariot and go down before the rain stops you.'"

John 15:16 Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name...

And this is therefore not raising energy, and therefore not a spell...

Blessings,
Lee
You seem to be misinterpretting a few things, One In the case of Simon the sorcerer, He did not understand that it was the intervention of A Deity, but also keep in mind that The apostles have been Building energy for fourty days when Christ ascended to heaven. Elijah had lived his entire life raising up the energy not only from His own actions but also through the belief of the people around him. Back then, Our ancestors did not entirely understand How raising enrgy worked which is why we had things like Animal and Human sacrifices. (That was the quick and Dirty Method). During the time of the Apostles and Prophets, they were a little better at raising that kidn of power because they had a base of p[eople to draw from and who constantly lent that kind of energy to their religious leaders freely.

[betzerg]

Justin, Alot of the pentecostal churches I went to NEVER dispersed the energy they raised. (They said it "Quenched the Holy Spirit") Plus it was very Addictive to keep that kind of energy around you (Speaking as an ex-pentecostal) So it was raised and raised often (Especially in bible school). you were also expected to keep your own energy raised up through prayer and reading the word and other things.

So, how long have you been an X pentecostal? What made you convert to the wiccan religion? Did you ever "speak in tongues"...and if so...how do you feel that affected your spirituality? Were people ever healed though the pentecostal thing that you knew about? And ....don't you have a grandma somewhere that is praying for you?

Shalom,

BETZER

[tmancour]

what is "unethical" to a pagan.


It is largely a matter of individual conscience. In general, the Wiccan Rede is used as a kind of touchstone guide for most ethical issues. However, as neo-paganism evolves, it is becoming clear that there are other ethical considerations at work. In my practice my ethics are informed not just by the Rede, but by the codes of Chivalry and Hospitality, and what I call the Path of Wisdom.

Do god and goddess give instructions? ARe there "rules" in paganism. How are the ethics of pagans determined.

In my practice my patroness, Brighid, occassionally gives me instruction -- it's her job -- but we don't really go in for the flashy Moses-style Commandments. There are rules in paganism, but they are not absolute -- they are "rules of thumb", useful guidelines to use for making an appropriate decision in any given circumstance. Note the emphasis on "appropriate". The ethics of paganism are focused on the development of the individual conscience and the concensus of Pagan society. There are things that will get you booted from any circle, but we don't generally phrase it in legalistic terminology. In one circle I sat in, the only rule was posted as :"Thou shalt not be an Ass." Violation was grounds for immediate expulsion.

The thing is, when you have written laws, you get lawyers to interpret and find loopholes in them, often violating the spirit of the law while adhering to the letter of the law. We don't think that is a productive way to run a religion. We emphasize personal development, introspection, meditation, and conscience. If you are still an ass after that, we'd rather not be around you.



Manipulation of a persons mind is not possible.


I take issue with that. I work in advertising.


You pagans sound more like calvanists all the time. G-d gave all men free will. Fatalism (or predestination) is not an acceptable understanding in judaism.


I'll ignore the insult. :lol: Spell casting does not contravene free will -- but it acknowleges that our will is subject to influence, both overt and covert. Just as someone can be persuaded to a course of action by reasoned debate and logical discourse, we feel that part of a person's mind (we call it the God Mind or the Superconscious) is also subject to a more subtle presuasion in the form of a spell. That doesn't mean that a spell will radically change their mind about something they feel strongly about, but sometimes if you place the right pebble in the right place at the headwaters of a stream you can divert the course of mighty rivers. They might not always go the way you want them to go, but . . .



And if pagan spells are so powerful...why is Bush still in office?


For one, not all Pagans voted against Bush. We're a diverse crowd. Secondly, in terms of "spiritual warfare", Bush is one of the best "protected" public figures of all time. He has organized prayer vigils praying for him around the clock as kind of a psychic secret service. Cutting through that would be a job for any religion.

And while I despise much about the current Bush Imperium, I cannot say unequivacally that it will necessarily be bad for Pagans in the long run. A strong blade is oft tempered by fire.



I once had a pagan who used "black magic" threaten to put a spell on me. Nothing ever came of it...but two months later...he tried to committ suicide.

You are partially right. There is a reason that there aren't more malignant spellcasters and black magicians running around. "Black" magick will burn you out.

There is a great deal of subtle psychology behind spellcasting, and without understanding it you are, indeed, playing with fire. If your heart is determined to put forth ill feelings and negative emotions, then you can expect to reap a healthy helping of negativity in return. One of the first things I teach my students is that every spell has an effect -- it will effect the spellcaster, if nothing else. I've also noticed that those who are most willing to throw around that kind of magick are also those who are most likely to suffer from mental illness of some sort. While annoying, this type of person is luckily a rarity in rank-and-file paganism. Once they find out that magick has lots of hard work and discipline involved, they get annoyed and go elsewhere.


This pagan stuff is dangerous...and in the hands of unstable, guilable people it is very destructive. G-d asks that all of us live according to certain principles of compassion and acceptance...you don't find any principles in wiccan thought...at least not conistent ones. Sorry about your bad luck.


The same could be said about this Abrahamic stuff, in the hands of the unstable and guilable. I need not list the amount of nastiness that has come out of monotheism.

And I take issue with your finding. The Goddess is compassion, incarnate; She is the Universal Mother, the Uber-Mommy who kisses our boo-boos and loves us unconditionally. She always accepts you the way you are, for that is the way She raised you to be. She may not like the direction your life is going at various points, but being a good Mommy She understands that all children go through phases. No matter what you do She will always be there for you.

I think that part of your problem is the way you phrase the question. Coming from a pure Abrahamic perspective, you only see value in a belief system if there is a comprehensive and codified system of laws and rules on which to base your life. Pagans have given up on Legalism as a beneficial religious practice. I think that as you encounter more Pagans and listen to our philosophy and see our practice, you will find that we spend an inordinate amount of time on ethics and morals.

Our principals are based on personal responsibility, which is not easily codified. Instead of a "one-size-fits-all" template on which to base our ethics, we spend a lot of time developing our personal ethics by assuming responsibility for our lives -- the good and the bad. Remember, Paganism is an orthopractic religion, not an orthodoxic one.

Arion

[technomage]

Justin, Alot of the pentecostal churches I went to NEVER dispersed the energy they raised.

No, that's exactly what I mean--the Pentecostal churches I knew of also don't "formally" disperse the energy, but up north (Northern Indiana area), they didn't have the instability problem that usually goes with that: the frequent hysterical ailments, the emotional and behavioral problems in the youths. The ones down south (North and South Carolina) do. I have to wonder if it's just anecdotal, or if there's something specific that's causing a problem ... maybe a difference in technique. :shrug:

It's just something I happened to think about. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. :wink:

[technomage]

What made you convert to the wiccan religion?

Shalom, Betzer,

Neither Cu nor Arion are "Wiccan"--Arion is of a different discipline entirely called Druidism, and Cu is "generically" Pagan, though I believe he has started classes with a Wiccan group. (Correct me if I'm wrong, guys.) While there are similarities, there are also differences--some of which are quite extreme.

Justin

[technomage]

Bleh, all protestants.

Greek Orthodox: +10, +2 spell reflection
Catholics: +5 (if devout), +10 (if devout priest), +10 (if on consecrated ground).

[tmancour]

Neither Cu nor Arion are "Wiccan"--Arion is of a different discipline entirely called Druidism, and Cu is "generically" Pagan, though I believe he has started classes with a Wiccan group. (Correct me if I'm wrong, guys.) While there are similarities, there are also differences--some of which are quite extreme.


Actually, I am both a Wiccan and a Druid. That can be confusing, I know, but it is one of the underlying basis of Paganism. I was trained in a Neo-Alexandrian Wiccan Coven (Dragonmoon Coven, Durham, 1987) and after the coven imploded I continued my studies on my own, occasionally augmenting them with mentors in specialized areas. I have loose affiliations with several groups, mostly practice solitary these days, and am developing an authentic Family Tradition to teach my kids and my niece.

Wicca, properly done, provides an excellent base for building upon. I still use many of my Wiccan meditations in my everyday practice, but my celebration of the holidays tends to be more Druidic in character. While on the surface there are indeed some profound differences, I incorporate both into my personal practice and benefit from the best of both of them.

This can be confusing to Abrahamics who are used to an exclusive denomination affiliation. But Wicca is a body of lore, and witchcraft is a skill, and Druidry is as much a philosophy and spiritual discipline as it is a religion. So a good Pagan can accumulate traditions as they grow and syncretize them into a system that works for them.

Blessed be,

Arion

[technomage]

Actually, I am both a Wiccan and a Druid. That can be confusing, I know, but it is one of the underlying basis of Paganism. I was trained in a Neo-Alexandrian Wiccan Coven (Dragonmoon Coven, Durham, 1987) and after the coven imploded I continued my studies on my own, occasionally augmenting them with mentors in specialized areas. I have loose affiliations with several groups, mostly practice solitary these days, and am developing an authentic Family Tradition to teach my kids and my niece.

Wicca, properly done, provides an excellent base for building upon. I still use many of my Wiccan meditations in my everyday practice, but my celebration of the holidays tends to be more Druidic in character. While on the surface there are indeed some profound differences, I incorporate both into my personal practice and benefit from the best of both of them.

This can be confusing to Abrahamics who are used to an exclusive denomination affiliation. But Wicca is a body of lore, and witchcraft is a skill, and Druidry is as much a philosophy and spiritual discipline as it is a religion. So a good Pagan can accumulate traditions as they grow and syncretize them into a system that works for them.

Blessed be,

Arion
:brood: I was hoping not to confuse folks any more than they already were. :rasberry:

[tmancour]

:brood: I was hoping not to confuse folks any more than they already were. :rasberry:


Hey, I'm a druid. Confusion is third nature to us. Good for the soul and all.

[technomage]

Hey, I'm a druid. Confusion is third nature to us. Good for the soul and all.
Listen, Arion, I know that, and YOU know that, but now you just told EVERYONE that!!!

:poke:

[Darth Executor]

Why would we be confused?

[technomage]

Why would we be confused?
Hush! Nothing to see here, move along.... :innocent:

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Cu: I cannot even ask a fellow Devotee of Morrigan to Live by the rules I set for myself. Why? They have a different set of experiences and challenges than I do. Nor can I or Should I tell someone else to live by a system of Morals that I Myself Dont live up to. nor should anyone do that to me.
Well, is this an absolute value? To let people pick their own standards? Or may I be relative here, and choose to hold people to absolute standards, because that's best for me?

So whenever people espouse relative values, they will almost immediately, propose an absolute value, in their defense of it.

And if your high priestess decides to remove someone's head (mine? yours?!) as part of her value system, shall we reply, "Well, we must allow for everyone's point of view?"

Or "Cannibals have to live, too"?

Cu: In the case of Simon the sorcerer, He did not understand that it was the intervention of A Deity, but also keep in mind that The apostles have been Building energy for fourty days when Christ ascended to heaven.
Well, it can't be both ways here! If the power is by God's discretion (which Scripture and the apostles say it is), then they aren't generating energy they can dispense. Now they might be mistaken! So how can we tell?

We seem to be agreeing that deities have a veto here, it's not "Do whatever you wish, whenever you wish," with supernatural power. Then the next question is, is there war among the powers? Among the deities? Are they ever opposed to each other?

Perhaps in the Pentecostal church, you may remember prayers that might indicate that they are. Then we have to inquire as to whether the gods are wielding the same power, or different power.

If scriptural power cannot be wielded at all, even in principle, and wiccan/pagan/druidical power can be, then we must conclude that these are different sources of power, not just different ways of wielding the same power, as is also indicated by one power being opposed to the other, as is typical, and, I must say, as I have also experienced...

Cu: Elijah had lived his entire life raising up the energy not only from His own actions but also through the belief of the people around him.
Why did the prophets of Baal fail then, where Elijah succeeded?

1 Kings 18:22-24 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the Lord's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire-- he is God." Then all the people said, "What you say is good."

Baal really should have won this contest, if it was based on the number of people believing, and on the power they could raise, and the lone prophet, who had only doubtful people watching, should not have been the one who was answered by fire.

Blessings,
Lee

[tmancour]

Well, is this an absolute value? To let people pick their own standards? Or may I be relative here, and choose to hold people to absolute standards, because that's best for me?

So whenever people espouse relative values, they will almost immediately, propose an absolute value, in their defense of it.

Well, I'd say the only absolute value I espouse is that hurting other people and the land unnecesarily is a bad idea. I think letting people pick their own standards is fine, providing that we are willing to live with the consequences -- we don't do so in a vacuum. We are influenced by everyone and everything around us, and we deviate from the commonly accepted standards of behavior at our peril. And you may indeed choose to hold me to an absolute standard; just don't be surprised when I completely ignore it.


And if your high priestess decides to remove someone's head (mine? yours?!) as part of her value system, shall we reply, "Well, we must allow for everyone's point of view?"

Or "Cannibals have to live, too"?


Well, it is no more arbitrary or acceptable when a pagan priestess does it as it is when a Christian pastor does it as a part of his value system: he gets away with it until he annoys his neighbors, and then they do something about it before it happens again. That is the consequence of the action, and a real HP would understand that making that kind of determination invokes a terrible responsibility, one she had better be willing to live up to.

Again, personal responsibility is the key, here. Of course we know such horrible crimes do not happen in societies that enjoy the benefits of an absolute value system . . .

Arion

[lee_merrill]

Hi Arion,

Well, I'd say the only absolute value I espouse is that hurting other people and the land unnecesarily is a bad idea.
That pretty much sums up all morality, though! All absolute standards are just an expression of this idea. And I agree! This should be an absolute standard, and should be expressed by any and all laws, that apply to all people.

I think letting people pick their own standards is fine, providing that we are willing to live with the consequences ...
Is it fine for a person to pick a value that involves hurting other without cause, then? I'm not sure now what you consider absolute.

And you may indeed choose to hold me to an absolute standard; just don't be surprised when I completely ignore it.
Then all value systems do not have equal validity? Only relative value systems are equally valid?

... and a real HP would understand that making that kind of determination invokes a terrible responsibility, one she had better be willing to live up to.
Yes, but not every cannibal gets indigestion. But I'm more concerned with pointing out that if you or I were on the menu, we would not say "Well, let's live and let live." So to speak. Indicating that we do consider some values really absolute.

Of course we know such horrible crimes do not happen in societies that enjoy the benefits of an absolute value system . . .
Certainly all absolute moralists do not follow their absolute morals, I agree. But there is at least more hope of not being on the dinner plate of the human souffle society, if these people can at least be convinced that no one should ever eat another person, if this, in principle, is wrong.

Saying it's not so, means no one has a right to condemn us (that's the advantage), and we have no right to condemn anyone else, not even, say, Hitler, and that's the disadvantage, especially if you happen to be a communist, a preacher, a gypsy, or a Jew...

Blessings,
Lee

[Cu Mhorrigan]

No, that's exactly what I mean--the Pentecostal churches I knew of also don't "formally" disperse the energy, but up north (Northern Indiana area), they didn't have the instability problem that usually goes with that: the frequent hysterical ailments, the emotional and behavioral problems in the youths. The ones down south (North and South Carolina) do. I have to wonder if it's just anecdotal, or if there's something specific that's causing a problem ... maybe a difference in technique. :shrug:

It's just something I happened to think about. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. :wink:
It kind of depends on the emotional make up of the pentecostals involved, here in new york we have quite a few FLAKES within the pentecostal church. Great at raising up energy, but they burn out and eventually turn way freaky. The More emotionally stable you are the more you are able to deal with the excess energy.
And no you raised a perfectly valid question. that being said, you know how you get those witches that kind of seem to not know how to properly ground themselves during ritual, they kind of become chatter boxes and extremely Hyper? It's kind of like that, except since pentecopstals have service nearly all the time and encourage personal devotions to keep the level of energy up their chakras and auras get really clouded.
(Happens to me alot when I dont focus on what I am doing., one thing I do is listen to some really loud Hard rock or some sisters of Mercy, that clears me right up. Yes I know it's Shamanic but it really helps.)

[technomage]

Yes I know it's Shamanic but it really helps.

Heck, whatever works! Too bad most Pentecostal churches don't approve of the loud music, eh? :hehe:

[Cynic Sage]

Heck, whatever works! Too bad most Pentecostal churches don't approve of the loud music, eh? :hehe:

I thought Pentecostals were always loud.

[technomage]

I thought Pentecostals were always loud.
That's right. It's the Baptists that sing like they're six weeks dead, and no one told them to lay down yet.

(Speaking on my authority as a former Baptist ... :hehe: )

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hi everyone,


Well, is this an absolute value? To let people pick their own standards? Or may I be relative here, and choose to hold people to absolute standards, because that's best for me?

So whenever people espouse relative values, they will almost immediately, propose an absolute value, in their defense of it.

And if your high priestess decides to remove someone's head (mine? yours?!) as part of her value system, shall we reply, "Well, we must allow for everyone's point of view?"

Or "Cannibals have to live, too"?
And here we go taking things to their extremes once again.
Cannibals have to eat, but I have the right to not be eaten.
A lion may have the right to hunt the zebra, but the zebra has the option to run or use their powerful hind legs to kick the lion breaking the big kitty's jaw.
you have the right to hand me a tract, I have the right to refuse or accept it.
It's all a matter of balancing One's ethics with the rights of those around them.
I cannot tell Justin what to believe any more than He can me.
Justin Likes to try and play nice with christians, I like to tick them off and get into knock down drag out theological arguments. Justin has every right to call me an agry immature idiot, I have every right to call him a Christiaqn loving wiccan wannabe poser (You know I love you right Justin? :wink: ). That does nto mean that he has the right to infect the computer I use for my business as well as for Role playing with a nasty virus that will destroy my hard drive.


Well, it can't be both ways here! If the power is by God's discretion (which Scripture and the apostles say it is), then they aren't generating energy they can dispense. Now they might be mistaken! So how can we tell? it's both, there is energy I raise for My own working, then there is energy I would use if I was Invoking Morrigan for a spell. She has the right to tell me to "Go have a nice Day". However I still have the option of using My own energy for a spell but Mine is limited to some degree.

We seem to be agreeing that deities have a veto here, it's not "Do whatever you wish, whenever you wish," with supernatural power. Then the next question is, is there war among the powers? Among the deities? Are they ever opposed to each other? Depends on the deity, Morrigan is a war goddess, hence a "Peaceful" deity wont like me being around her folowers. Since Morrigan is also a Dark Goddess, I would have a problem with those who worship a "Love and Light everything is wonderful and I give everyone fairie kisses and pansies" type of Goddess. I personally respect but stay away some of the other dark goddesses like Kali-Ma or Sekhmet if I can help it because Dealing with Morrigan gives me all the Spiritual freak outs I can handle.
It's not so much a "War between the gods" as it is dealing with different dynamics. Plus there is the fact that Some gods and goddeses are and can be real Jerks.
Perhaps in the Pentecostal church, you may remember prayers that might indicate that they are. Then we have to inquire as to whether the gods are wielding the same power, or different power.

If scriptural power cannot be wielded at all, even in principle, and wiccan/pagan/druidical power can be, then we must conclude that these are different sources of power, not just different ways of wielding the same power, as is also indicated by one power being opposed to the other, as is typical, and, I must say, as I have also experienced... It essentially is energy.
think of it this way, Energy is energy whether it is generated by a Spell, or by a machine. it is simply a matter of what that energy is used for. While I may be able to generate my own, I Can theoretically ask Morrigan to give me what I may need incase My best efforts dont yield up a whole lot, and it depends on what I plan on doing with that energy.


Why did the prophets of Baal fail then, where Elijah succeeded?

1 Kings 18:22-24 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the Lord's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire-- he is God." Then all the people said, "What you say is good."

Baal really should have won this contest, if it was based on the number of people believing, and on the power they could raise, and the lone prophet, who had only doubtful people watching, should not have been the one who was answered by fire. Remember what I said previously about Magic responding to need? Plus there is also a little something that you may have forgotten, it was in the Hebrew Shaman's best interest to have the story of elijah and the prophet of baal story end the way it did. It was to "Prove once and for all" which god was superior so of course the writters had to say that YHWH did since they were YHWH's servants, it would nto have been as impactful if it turned out Baal answered but His flame was smaller than YHWh's

[tmancour]

And here we go taking things to their extremes once again.
Cannibals have to eat, but I have the right to not be eaten.
A lion may have the right to hunt the zebra, but the zebra has the option to run or use their powerful hind legs to kick the lion breaking the big kitty's jaw.
you have the right to hand me a tract, I have the right to refuse or accept it.
It's all a matter of balancing One's ethics with the rights of those around them.
I cannot tell Justin what to believe any more than He can me.
Justin Likes to try and play nice with christians, I like to tick them off and get into knock down drag out theological arguments. Justin has every right to call me an agry immature idiot, I have every right to call him a Christiaqn loving wiccan wannabe poser (You know I love you right Justin? :wink: ). That does nto mean that he has the right to infect the computer I use for my business as well as for Role playing with a nasty virus that will destroy my hard drive.

Bravo! Couldn't have said it better. That's another Pagan principal frequently misunderstood: the concept of Balance. Abrahamics deify the spectrum between positive and negative, then all gang up on one side whilt secretly haunting the other. Paganism acknowleges the purposeful existance of both, and strives to find a comfortable balance in between. Hey, it's less crowded here in the middle!


Depends on the deity, Morrigan is a war goddess, hence a "Peaceful" deity wont like me being around her folowers. Since Morrigan is also a Dark Goddess, I would have a problem with those who worship a "Love and Light everything is wonderful and I give everyone fairie kisses and pansies" type of Goddess. I personally respect but stay away some of the other dark goddesses like Kali-Ma or Sekhmet if I can help it because Dealing with Morrigan gives me all the Spiritual freak outs I can handle.

Lol. I have a pretty close relationship with Brighid myself, and there are definately times when I can feel Her opinion of something.

For the unenlightened, Brighid is a Pan-Celtic goddess that lent Her name to the word "briton", among others. She was quite popular throughout the Celtic world, and there are hundreds of place names associated with Her. She continued to be popular even after Her demotion to Sainthood, as St. Brigit. In Her primary aspect She is an elemental fire goddess (Her name means "firey arrow", and when using Her elemental aspect I refer to Her as Brigit) but She is also a primary craft goddess, and She reigns as well over childbirth, newborns, and fosterlings. She is patroness of poets and writers, and is in charge of poetic inspiration. In these aspect I usually refer to Her as Brighid.

But she, too, has a dark side; She is a war goddess and a goddess of just vengeance. In this aspect I refer to Her as Brigantia. She is roughly cognate to Athena, who was also an Indo-European craft/war/wisdom goddess. Brigantia is usually a goddess of defensive war, protection of the tribe, fortifications, etc. Much different in Her aspect than the Morrigan (whom I also have an affection for -- my 3 year old little girl is named Morrigan.).

Regardless of which aspect is presenting, I can almost always tell when She is unhappy with my course of action or who I am hanging out with. She prefers smart people, intellectuals, and the technically competent. She dislikes idiots and flaming arseholes even more than I do. It's an interesting relationship.



It's not so much a "War between the gods" as it is dealing with different dynamics. Plus there is the fact that Some gods and goddeses are and can be real Jerks.

Trickster deities in particular. Sure, fun to read about, but the metaphysical reality is usually poor. Even then there are better and worse ones to encounter: Odiin and Hermes are pretty decent; Coyote and Anansi can be tricky (kind of like Wile E. Coyote) and obnoxious. Virgin Goddesses are all right, generally, but we don't get along. And Sea gods can be a right pain in the butt when you live in hurricane country.


Remember what I said previously about Magic responding to need? Plus there is also a little something that you may have forgotten, it was in the Hebrew Shaman's best interest to have the story of elijah and the prophet of baal story end the way it did. It was to "Prove once and for all" which god was superior so of course the writters had to say that YHWH did since they were YHWH's servants, it would nto have been as impactful if it turned out Baal answered but His flame was smaller than YHWh's

I wonder what that battle would have looked like from the Canaanite point of view? Can we really trust the Hebrews to give a journalistically accurate account?

Arion

[technomage]

I wonder what that battle would have looked like from the Canaanite point of view? Can we really trust the Hebrews to give a journalistically accurate account?

That wasn't Hebrews vs. Canaanites: that was Hebrew Yahweh worshipper vs. Hebrew Ba'al cult. And I think we can safely relegate the story to the land of etiological myth, but YMMV.

[Darth Executor]

I wonder what that battle would have looked like from the Canaanite point of view? Can we really trust the Hebrews to give a journalistically accurate account?


Yes you can. The jews had no trouble recording both their defeats and their leaders' immoral action in the bible. I don't see why they'd cover up the events in Canaan particularly since nobody at the time cared about brutal warfare anyway.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Yes you can. The jews had no trouble recording both their defeats and their leaders' immoral action in the bible. I don't see why they'd cover up the events in Canaan particularly since nobody at the time cared about brutal warfare anyway.
The reason they would cover it up just like any other time is because the Hebrew Shamans NEEDED some kind of Victory and some kind of justification for the Eradication of "Idolatry". Here is a clue Darthie, Never trust the propagandaa of the Oppressors. They will tell you Nothing which will jeapordise their little hold on authority. So they brought out one or two well known exampls of bd leader ship. so what? when there was more that they did NOT deal with.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: Or "Cannibals have to live, too"?

Cu: Cannibals have to eat, but I have the right to not be eaten.
Do they have a right to eat (you?!), though? According to their value system? That is the question I am after here. Are relative values always acceptable, within their own system, and should we always acknowledge that?

Arion: That's another Pagan principal frequently misunderstood: the concept of Balance. Abrahamics deify the spectrum between positive and negative, then all gang up on one side whilt secretly haunting the other. Paganism acknowleges the purposeful existance of both, and strives to find a comfortable balance in between.
So how much evil will be comfortable? How many people should (comfortably?) let cannibals have their way occasionally, and not jump off the menu?

How many predatory people are required, for the Pagans to be comfortable? Many questions come to mind. If there are not enough murders to keep the system balanced, should a few such people be released from prison?

Lee: Well, it can't be both ways here! If the power is by God's discretion ... then they aren't generating energy they can dispense.

Cu: it's both, there is energy I raise for My own working, then there is energy I would use if I was Invoking Morrigan for a spell.
Well, I meant Christian power, not Wiccan power. It might be that Pentecostals don't know how to focus the energy they are (we have heard) raising. But some try to do just that! I went to a meeting where a speaker bound the spirit of greed over Chicago. I have not noted, that the spirit was especially disabled, though, if it did exist. This is done a lot, and when people try and wield Christian power, the results are dramatic, dramatically ineffective.

Acts 19:13-16 They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." ... Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all.

Lee: If scriptural power cannot be wielded at all, even in principle, and wiccan/pagan/druidical power can be, then we must conclude that these are different sources of power...

Cu: It essentially is energy.
think of it this way, Energy is energy whether it is generated by a Spell, or by a machine. it is simply a matter of what that energy is used for.
Well, I do agree that this applies to spell-casting, and I'm saying there are no Christian spells, even when people print prayers-that-you-pray-to-get-this, they don't work out, indicating a distinct difference.

A person I spoke with once said to me that they now thought the reason their prayers had not been answered, it that they were not using the correct name for God, it should be Jehovah (I don't remember the exact name they said they now would use). Need I say that I heard no mention of an improved result? But this was exactly like a Christian spell.

Cu: it was in the Hebrew Shaman's best interest to have the story of elijah and the prophet of baal story end the way it did.
I have heard other, similar stories, though, of evangelists (usually in other countries) seeing sacrificed lizards on stakes, and such, at the place of their meetings, and finding power in God, to overcome this, time and again.

Or some shamans throwing live coals into the crowd at a showing of the Jesus film! The people then observed that blossoms were falling among them, flower blossoms. Neat incident, when this time, the miracle was that the fire did not fall...

Blessings,
Lee

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hi everyone,
Do they have a right to eat (you?!), though? According to their value system? That is the question I am after here. Are relative values always acceptable, within their own system, and should we always acknowledge that? they have the right to try, just as I have the right to kick their teeth in.


So how much evil will be comfortable? How many people should (comfortably?) let cannibals have their way occasionally, and not jump off the menu?

How many predatory people are required, for the Pagans to be comfortable? Many questions come to mind. If there are not enough murders to keep the system balanced, should a few such people be released from prison?
You seem to be equating Balance with tolerating harmful acts being done to another person. The Idea of Balance is not so much tolerating evil as it is understanding that their actions have consequences. It's like this, I personally Choose not to cheat on my wife. Not because I am afraid fo some thinderous judgement from one of the gods, but because I know the Drama and consequences afterwards make the act Unpallatable to me. Yes the Sex may be better, and the woman (Or man) I have the affair with may be more visualy appealing to me but in the end I wind up with alot more Drama than I want to deal with. In thinking through each individual act and wieghing the consequences, each person decides whether or not the act is worth the penalty and the price they will have to pay afterwards.
Back to the idea of casting Love spells, If you cast a spell to make a person fall head over heels in love with you, you deny that person the right to decide for themselves if they actually WANT to be with you. In other words you take away their right to weigh the consequences of their actions and just blindly want to have mad, passionate, sex with you.
and in the end they wind up becomming psychotic stalkers or they pine away in quiet desperation.

Well, I meant Christian power, not Wiccan power. It might be that Pentecostals don't know how to focus the energy they are (we have heard) raising. But some try to do just that! I went to a meeting where a speaker bound the spirit of greed over Chicago. I have not noted, that the spirit was especially disabled, though, if it did exist. This is done a lot, and when people try and wield Christian power, the results are dramatic, dramatically ineffective. There is no "Christian Power" or "Wiccan Power" there is Just "POWER". which is a common fallacy, Power, Energy etc. Is the same no matter who generates it. the difference is the intent and the effectiveness.
(Chigago has never really been a strong hold for greed so much as there is more of a desire for power (Gangsters).)
Raising Power is easily done in Pentecostal churches (This was something I began noticing while I was still in pentecostal churches) through the use of "Praise and Worship" to get people into an altered emotional state. If you think about it Watch what goes on during the service and notice how sometimes the service gets sluggish and how sometimes there seems to be almost a palpable feeling of "Heat" in the room.

Well, I do agree that this applies to spell-casting, and I'm saying there are no Christian spells, even when people print prayers-that-you-pray-to-get-this, they don't work out, indicating a distinct difference. and there are countless spells on the internet that are complete and utter hogwash. that does not take away from the reality of magic in our universe. the problem is you are looking at things through the eyes of Dogma which prevents you from seriously observing what goes on.

A person I spoke with once said to me that they now thought the reason their prayers had not been answered, it that they were not using the correct name for God, it should be Jehovah (I don't remember the exact name they said they now would use). Need I say that I heard no mention of an improved result? But this was exactly like a Christian spell.


I have heard other, similar stories, though, of evangelists (usually in other countries) seeing sacrificed lizards on stakes, and such, at the place of their meetings, and finding power in God, to overcome this, time and again.

Or some shamans throwing live coals into the crowd at a showing of the Jesus film! The people then observed that blossoms were falling among them, flower blossoms. Neat incident, when this time, the miracle was that the fire did not fall...

Blessings,
Lee
One of the things we in the craft learn is not to believe everything you read and hear. The term "Speaking Evangelistically" came about from the evangelist's eagerness to sometimes exaggerate their stories to make them sound more exciting.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Cu,

they have the right to try, just as I have the right to kick their teeth in.
And if not enough people are being eaten by cannibals, we should propose (be?) some candidates? Our rights should bend to their rights? Balance, you know, being an absolute value...

In thinking through each individual act and wieghing the consequences, each person decides whether or not the act is worth the penalty and the price they will have to pay afterwards.
That's an absolute value, though, marital infidelity has a price and an penalty, those aspects are always bad, really wrong, and this is not optional, or someone's opinion.

Back to the idea of casting Love spells, If you cast a spell to make a person fall head over heels in love with you, you deny that person the right to decide for themselves if they actually WANT to be with you. In other words you take away their right to weigh the consequences of their actions and just blindly want to have mad, passionate, sex with you.
and in the end they wind up becomming psychotic stalkers or they pine away in quiet desperation.
And thus it really is essentially wrong to cast such a spell, well, I agree, absolutely!

More to follow in a few hours, I'm at work right now...

Blessings,
Lee

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hi Cu,


And if not enough people are being eaten by cannibals, we should propose (be?) some candidates? Our rights should bend to their rights? Balance, you know, being an absolute value... **Buzz** Wrong answer, We encourage the cannibal to seek out other options for their diet. SInce Most of their prey would most likely Fight back and eventually someoen with big guns will start killing them off. (Again Nature balancing herself). Just like We would encourage a fat person to modify their diet and exercise regimine to live a healthier life. Or a person with anorexia to deal with the issues making her anorexic and learn to have a healthy body image. The purpose of balancing things out is to make life better for all involved


That's an absolute value, though, marital infidelity has a price and an penalty, those aspects are always bad, really wrong, and this is not optional, or someone's opinion. It depends on the type of marraige a couple will have. if it is one where both are allowed "Outside" relationships then such an arraingement would be worked out between them. The idea being one of respect. Going back to My previous example; I Choose not to cheat on My spouse, Not because of some Sexually frustrated old man screamming at me behind a pulpit but because a) I love My spouse b)we have a monogamous marriage c) It's too much work to actually go around and cheat on her. (I have to find a woman, then I have to sneak around and arrainge for trysting places, where we wont be spotted by My family, her family our respective loved ones, etc. .


And thus it really is essentially wrong to cast such a spell, well, I agree, absolutely!

More to follow in a few hours, I'm at work right now...

Blessings,
Lee
Exactly that is because I THINK my actions through and bring them to their most logical consequences. I then decide if such an action is warranted or not.

[markporter]

And I think we can safely relegate the story to the land of etiological myth

On what basis?

[nyaminche]

I saw a good bit about prayer compared with spells in this thread but I've not seen Christian prayer really explained - I thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Let me say right off that I know absolutely nothing about spells.

Christian absolute values have nothing to do with personal opinion and everything to do with the teachings of Scripture and what God has to say about it.
The essence of being a Christian is that God's Spirit comes to dwell inside you, and transforms you into God's servant. This involves what you desire, how you act, how you relate to others, and, well, everything actually. Bear in mind that this is a process, the thing that holds it back is human frailty. (And the deceits and workings of the devil)

I do have a point that I'm slowly working towards. The final goal of a Christian is to become a *servant*, focused on God's will and working towards his glory. This is important when it comes to prayer.

Why does prayer work?
It works because God listens to those that he loves. When a Christian prays, they actually have an advocate (Jesus) speaking on their behalf, and an interpreter (God's spirit inside them) who translates our puny words into something greater.
Prayer is most effective when we are truely seeking what God wants. Looking at the
Lord's prayer (the ultimate template for prayer), it covers:
Hallowed be your name - God wants us to recognise his claim to total glory.
Your kingdom come - God's ultimate plan.
God's will be done(on earth) - Yes, God wants that
Give us our daily bread - God promises to provide for us - daily sustainance (not always luxury) is something he wishes for us
Forgive us as we forgive others - God wants to forgive us
Lead us not into temptation - God wants to keep us on the straight and narrow
Deliver us from evil - a no brainer

The things listed are all things that God wants. When we pray for something that is in accordance with his will, of course he provides it! The way to know (and pray) what he wants, of course, is to allow him to transform us into his servants!

There is absolute emphasis on praying for what God wants to further his glory (ie, bring all people to the realization of who he is). No matter what is specifically asked for, that is the only goal, and the only result of true, Spirit guided, Christian prayer.

God always answers prayer. Sometimes it's not what we expect. For example, I've seen any number of threads on this forum where someone asks a poor question, perhaps one that doesn't make sense.
The result? They don't get the answer that they expected. They get someone telling them, "You asked the wrong question." This isn't because people don't want to help them solve the question they asked, but rather it's something that must be resolved before the actual question they have can be solved.

In the same way, when we're not praying according to what God wants, he'll still answer, but it might be something to help teach us something. It might be (shock, horror) disciplinary or painful in nature. But our feelings aren't the point.

Prayer can also have other purposes - simply praising God for who he is, claiming what he has promised us.

It is also the #1 weapon to be used against the Devil.
The idea that there is just power is a common fallacy.

That's my understanding of what the Bible teaches about prayer.
Biblical theology with respect to spells puts them in a completely different realm.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

I saw a good bit about prayer compared with spells in this thread but I've not seen Christian prayer really explained - I thought I'd give my 2 cents.

Let me say right off that I know absolutely nothing about spells.

Christian absolute values have nothing to do with personal opinion and everything to do with the teachings of Scripture and what God has to say about it.
The essence of being a Christian is that God's Spirit comes to dwell inside you, and transforms you into God's servant. This involves what you desire, how you act, how you relate to others, and, well, everything actually. Bear in mind that this is a process, the thing that holds it back is human frailty. (And the deceits and workings of the devil)

I do have a point that I'm slowly working towards. The final goal of a Christian is to become a *servant*, focused on God's will and working towards his glory. This is important when it comes to prayer.

Why does prayer work?
It works because God listens to those that he loves. When a Christian prays, they actually have an advocate (Jesus) speaking on their behalf, and an interpreter (God's spirit inside them) who translates our puny words into something greater.
Prayer is most effective when we are truely seeking what God wants. Looking at the
Lord's prayer (the ultimate template for prayer), it covers:
Hallowed be your name - God wants us to recognise his claim to total glory.
Your kingdom come - God's ultimate plan.
God's will be done(on earth) - Yes, God wants that
Give us our daily bread - God promises to provide for us - daily sustainance (not always luxury) is something he wishes for us
Forgive us as we forgive others - God wants to forgive us
Lead us not into temptation - God wants to keep us on the straight and narrow
Deliver us from evil - a no brainer

The things listed are all things that God wants. When we pray for something that is in accordance with his will, of course he provides it! The way to know (and pray) what he wants, of course, is to allow him to transform us into his servants!

There is absolute emphasis on praying for what God wants to further his glory (ie, bring all people to the realization of who he is). No matter what is specifically asked for, that is the only goal, and the only result of true, Spirit guided, Christian prayer.

God always answers prayer. Sometimes it's not what we expect. For example, I've seen any number of threads on this forum where someone asks a poor question, perhaps one that doesn't make sense.
The result? They don't get the answer that they expected. They get someone telling them, "You asked the wrong question." This isn't because people don't want to help them solve the question they asked, but rather it's something that must be resolved before the actual question they have can be solved.

In the same way, when we're not praying according to what God wants, he'll still answer, but it might be something to help teach us something. It might be (shock, horror) disciplinary or painful in nature. But our feelings aren't the point.

Prayer can also have other purposes - simply praising God for who he is, claiming what he has promised us.

It is also the #1 weapon to be used against the Devil.
The idea that there is just power is a common fallacy.

That's my understanding of what the Bible teaches about prayer.
Biblical theology with respect to spells puts them in a completely different realm.

The study of Magic is much the same way I dont study it to "Gain mastery over other people" I study it because it is something to Help me out. As I become more proficient I gain more confidence and I learn things about myself and my motives (Both Good and bad). The difference is that I learn to not only rely on myself but also on my goddess as I work with her. It is not so much as a "Mistress/Slave" relationship but one of "Teacher/Student", That means that I am instructed and I learn even from my mistakes, however I dont live in fear of them. (She isnt going to send me to hell, that would be letting me off too easily.)

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Cu: There is no "Christian Power" or "Wiccan Power" there is Just "POWER". which is a common fallacy, Power, Energy etc.
It seems odd that there are no Christian spells, then, nor does Christian power seem to be able to be wielded, even by those who try to wield it.

Cu: If you think about it Watch what goes on during the service and notice how sometimes the service gets sluggish and how sometimes there seems to be almost a palpable feeling of "Heat" in the room.
I have indeed sensed the presence of God in times of worship, and that is the power of God, and why prayer brings it, not words or incantations, but inviting his presence.

And similarly also, with other powers, with Wiccan deities, Hindu deities, pagan/druidical deities, they bring their power with their presence, and spells are a sleight of hand! Now that we are propounding our views.

A pertinent question to ask here is why are these non-Christian deities being so generous? What do we bring to the table, that makes them so anxious to assist us in acquiring powers? What's in it for them, if the power is free for everyone, and at their disposal, and even, for the most part, they embody it?

They have our best interest in mind? But well, they squabble, this would not assure me of their best interest, regarding lesser beings, those who oppose each other for bad reasons, must be considered willing to oppose myself, similarly, at times.

Lee: Our rights should bend to their rights? Balance, you know...

Cu: Wrong answer, We encourage the cannibal to seek out other options for their diet.
Wouldn't that be unbalanced, though, if human predators stopped eating other people? Lions should not eat meat?

Not enough harmful acts means some murderers should be released? Encouraged?! An excess of kindness and good will must not be allowed to happen?

Do you measure the good you have done for your friends each week, and trip them up or something, to restore balance to the force, if need be?

"An it harm no one, do as you please" is actually rather unbalanced, too, the predators indeed, would starve.

The purpose of balancing things out is to make life better for all involved...
Yes, and cannibals gotta live, too? Must their point of view be excluded?

Lee: That's an absolute value, though, marital infidelity has a price and an penalty, those aspects are always bad...

Cu: It depends on the type of marraige a couple will have. if it is one where both are allowed "Outside" relationships then such an arraingement would be worked out between them.
Well then, it's not always bad, and this value is indeed relative. But we can't have it both ways! If this is bad because of unavoidable consequences, then we have an absolute value, and "each person decides whether or not the act is worth the penalty and the price they will have to pay afterwards." Not "might have to pay!"

Cu: Exactly that is because I THINK my actions through and bring them to their most logical consequences.
Yes, and that produces, well, absolute values, if the deductions are correct, and I do believe such correct deductions can be made.

Blessings,
Lee

[technomage]

It seems odd that there are no Christian spells, then, nor does Christian power seem to be able to be wielded, even by those who try to wield it.

Says who?

[betzerg]

One of the things we in the craft learn is not to believe everything you read and hear. The term "Speaking Evangelistically" came about from the evangelist's eagerness to sometimes exaggerate their stories to make them sound more exciting.

How funny...I've had the same advice about Pagans. It's a small world, huh.

One questions...in describing the gods and goddess...they each seem to have distinct personalities and functions...how does one know about these functions...is there a book written that describes who these dieties are?

ACTUALLY, two questions....when were you "pentecostal" and what happened that caused you to leave that group and become wiccan. Just curious.

Shalom,

BETZER

[technomage]

How funny...I've had the same advice about Pagans. It's a small world, huh.

Maybe it's not a specifically Christian trait, or Jewish trait, or Pagan trait. Maybe it's a specifically human trait. :wink:

One questions...in describing the gods and goddess...they each seem to have distinct personalities and functions...how does one know about these functions...is there a book written that describes who these dieties are?

Hmmm. I could point you towards a slew of books for that purpose, because no, there is no "one official book." However, that's looking at the letters, not at the words they make.

There is a saying in some branches of Neo-Paganism: "All Gods are One God, and All Goddesses are One Goddess, and the God and Goddess are One." Betzerg, how familiar are you with the Kabbalah? If you aren't, then this explanation will make no sense whatsoever, and I apologize for that.

We cannot understand this primal Creator any more than you can perceive what is beyond the Ain. But we can partially understand God as projected into the various emanations that form the Tree of Life. Now, we know that the Tree of Life is not God's "actual" shape--after all, we recognize that the map is not the terrain--but it is a useful way to represent what we can discover about God in a systematized manner. Those who study the ToL assiduously may understand more than one who studies diffidently, yet neither the scholar nor the lazy student will ever have complete understanding.

In the same way, many Pagans look not to the Tree of Life, but to Word Mythology to understand the various "emanations" where God may be found. These various "mythologies" are, like the Tree of Life, not the "real" face of God, but they can be useful in understanding.

[betzerg]

Maybe it's not a specifically Christian trait, or Jewish trait, or Pagan trait. Maybe it's a specifically human trait. :wink:

very human...creatively human...and it comes in very handy at times. :wink:



Hmmm. I could point you towards a slew of books for that purpose, because no, there is no "one official book." However, that's looking at the letters, not at the words they make.

There is a saying in some branches of Neo-Paganism: "All Gods are One God, and All Goddesses are One Goddess, and the God and Goddess are One." Betzerg, how familiar are you with the Kabbalah? If you aren't, then this explanation will make no sense whatsoever, and I apologize for that.

We cannot understand this primal Creator any more than you can perceive what is beyond the Ain. But we can partially understand God as projected into the various emanations that form the Tree of Life. Now, we know that the Tree of Life is not God's "actual" shape--after all, we recognize that the map is not the terrain--but it is a useful way to represent what we can discover about God in a systematized manner. Those who study the ToL assiduously may understand more than one who studies diffidently, yet neither the scholar nor the lazy student will ever have complete understanding.

In the same way, many Pagans look not to the Tree of Life, but to Word Mythology to understand the various "emanations" where God may be found. These various "mythologies" are, like the Tree of Life, not the "real" face of God, but they can be useful in understanding.


Yet the 10 serferot are actual emanations of G-d and ultimately of the Eyn SOF....and they are function in balance to make them Echad. EVen Kabbalah teaches that to be on one side of the tree of life, to the exclusion of the other...is EVIL>

In other words, to have a myth depliciting only one aspect of the seferot of say "judgement" to the exclusion of any kind of "mercy" or compassion is to make that seferot function in an evil way...because the tree of life is all about balance...and the balancing of the serferot bringing G-d's KINGDOM into the earth.

So...if we have myth about a "goddess" who is war-like and strong...and this is to reflect the serferot of Gueverah...strength...then to have her be a separate entity is evil. Because strength must be tempered with "lovingkindness". When we personify the serferot we make another G-d unlike the TRUE G-d...which is the balance of all in perfect order.

The holy name of G-d, the tetragrammatron, is unlike any other god...or goddess. It is the balance of ALL the emanations into one perfect, holy and set apart Unity. To worship only one "aspect" of G-d in the form of a smaller god or goddess is evil in that it creates imbalance.

There is a created order to all of existence. Looking for that order in the lesser gods is not the path to what is true. Using spells and incanatations to change the world ...or just your own world...is the lazy way to influence our world. It does not bring Tikkun ...healing. The only restoration of the order of G-d in creation that is available is by telling men what is true. What is "good", what is right. No spells can dispell that damage mankind has done to G-d's world..and to himself. To believe that some connection with a lessor god will somehow give meaning to life is to worship the creature...instead of the creator.

G-d bless you in your search for what is true.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Cu Mhorrigan]

How funny...I've had the same advice about Pagans. It's a small world, huh.

One questions...in describing the gods and goddess...they each seem to have distinct personalities and functions...how does one know about these functions...is there a book written that describes who these dieties are?

ACTUALLY, two questions....when were you "pentecostal" and what happened that caused you to leave that group and become wiccan. Just curious.

Shalom,

BETZER
DIsgust and Dissilusionment really seeing how things really were behind the scenes, the emotional manipulation and things of that nature, I finally had enough. I kind of did nothing for two years and then I met people online who were Wiccan so I decided to check it out. that is the short version.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Hi everyone,


It seems odd that there are no Christian spells, then, nor does Christian power seem to be able to be wielded, even by those who try to wield it.They do they are called "The Psalms" and "Scriptures to COnfess". WHen you make it a point to memorise and quote scripture you are actually casting spells.


I have indeed sensed the presence of God in times of worship, and that is the power of God, and why prayer brings it, not words or incantations, but inviting his presence.

And similarly also, with other powers, with Wiccan deities, Hindu deities, pagan/druidical deities, they bring their power with their presence, and spells are a sleight of hand! Now that we are propounding our views.

A pertinent question to ask here is why are these non-Christian deities being so generous? What do we bring to the table, that makes them so anxious to assist us in acquiring powers? What's in it for them, if the power is free for everyone, and at their disposal, and even, for the most part, they embody it?

They have our best interest in mind? But well, they squabble, this would not assure me of their best interest, regarding lesser beings, those who oppose each other for bad reasons, must be considered willing to oppose myself, similarly, at times. I think of it like this, In my Coven, half worship the Goddess Hecate (Goddess of the crossroads) and some of us worship the Goddess Morrigan (GOddess of War) While it would seem Odd to have Celts and Hellenes working together, the two groups actually get along since Hecate and Morrigan have different but similar functions and out looks. Both are "Dark Goddesses" but One is more oriented towards War and Hecate is more oriented towards the Aspect of learning that which is hidden.
Speaking only for my self, When Morrigan called Me it was pretty much along the lines of "Hey, You're Cute and funny I'm keeping you around." It wasnt really this "Deep Metaphysical Moment" where I saw signs under every tree and bush and ravens kept showing up everywhere, with the stink of death and battle wafting through My apartment, and the Undead walking up to protect my apartment. It was really more of a casual conversation she and I had been having for quite some time. Basically Morrigan called me because I was Funny.


Wouldn't that be unbalanced, though, if human predators stopped eating other people? Lions should not eat meat? Lions eat meat because it is in their NATURE to eat meat. Cannibals eat humans for a variety of reasons, One being that there are no other large animals to prey on.and, of course there are metaphysical reasons. to the pagan mindset if we show them there are other methods of gathering energy (As opposed to stealling it from their enemy) we help them find other avenues of gaining what they need.

I'd ofer more but I have an inteview comming up.

[technomage]

Yet the 10 serferot are actual emanations of G-d and ultimately of the Eyn SOF....and they are function in balance to make them Echad. EVen Kabbalah teaches that to be on one side of the tree of life, to the exclusion of the other...is EVIL>

All true. Betzerg, most Wiccans and Pagans are functionally monotheists. The balance you speak of--refusing to prefer hadin over ha'rahamin--is exactly the same balance that we seek. This is the balance that Cu speaks of, and that Lee misunderstands and misconstrues so badly.
The holy name of G-d, the tetragrammatron, is unlike any other god...or goddess. It is the balance of ALL the emanations into one perfect, holy and set apart Unity. To worship only one "aspect" of G-d in the form of a smaller god or goddess is evil in that it creates imbalance.

Betzerg, is it "evil" for a child to have to learn to walk before he can learn to run? And in the face of such a wealth and depth and heighth of our human ignorance concerning the Creator, is it at all amazing that as we learn to walk, we take steps that one more experienced would consider "baby steps?"

Cu is young (I'm almost twice his age), and he's Gentile (as I am) ... you know as well as I do that there are plenty of students of the Torah who wouldn't count Cu important enough to give him the time of day! Yet Cu loves the Creator, and he tries--perhaps feebly, or childishly, or even foolishly--to do the best that he can.

As do I. As do we all.

[nyaminche]

They do they are called "The Psalms" and "Scriptures to COnfess". WHen you make it a point to memorise and quote scripture you are actually casting spells.

I"ll have to disagree with you there. The Psalms are songs which skillfully express how the writer was feeling. The reason people flock to them in droves is because they so accurately mirror our own emotiions of distress, elation and wonder. Similarly, Scriptures to Confess are ones that eloquenlly state what you already feel or acknowledge. You could speak them out in plain english or <insert favourite language here> or even just *think* them.
The reason that Scripture is so often used is that it's usually just that much more eloquent than we are. In addition, being God's own true word, it is usually a more accurate reflection of affairs than our own paraphrases. But the only reason to "Confess" a scripture is that *you've already realized that it is true*. That's the only thing that's important.
With regard to memorizing and quoting Scripture, I'll pull an example.

"I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." Psalm 119:11

Now when I quote this verse (that I had actually memorized) I don't see how it applies as a spell. Rather I memorized the verse because it's a wise teaching that reveals *why* to memorize scripture. Namely, so that you know what it says, so that you will not sin against God. Granted, you might still sin, but education is the key to prevention, right?

If you consider that this post counts as a spell than I"m obviously missing something on your end of things.


The study of Magic is much the same way I dont study it to "Gain mastery over other people" I study it because it is something to Help me out. As I become more proficient I gain more confidence and I learn things about myself and my motives (Both Good and bad). The difference is that I learn to not only rely on myself but also on my goddess as I work with her. It is not so much as a "Mistress/Slave" relationship but one of "Teacher/Student"

Ultimately the "Help me out" approach to Christianity will fail miserably. People don't need help, they need changed. God does help out his children and lead them, but the focus is *always* on God. God has a plan for my life, a path that he wants me to follow. His help is always directed at getting me back on his course.

If I think of my relationship with God as something to "help me out" as I go along my life, I will quickly become frustrated, jaded and angry because the point is not to go along *my* life. The point is to abandon my life and ask God what he wants me to do.
As I gain more understanding of God's truth, i learn that relying on myself at all will result in failure. The relationship is that of a Father/Son. And when I say a son, I mean a small child who is utterly dependent.

God hears our prayers because he *loves* us, which is a different kind of love spell entirely.

Apologies for the excessive use of dark text but,

"Therefore, sInce we have such a hope we are very bold." 2 Corinthians 3:12

:wink:

[Cu Mhorrigan]

I"ll have to disagree with you there. The Psalms are songs which skillfully express how the writer was feeling. The reason people flock to them in droves is because they so accurately mirror our own emotiions of distress, elation and wonder. Similarly, Scriptures to Confess are ones that eloquenlly state what you already feel or acknowledge. You could speak them out in plain english or <insert favourite language here> or even just *think* them.
The reason that Scripture is so often used is that it's usually just that much more eloquent than we are. In addition, being God's own true word, it is usually a more accurate reflection of affairs than our own paraphrases. But the only reason to "Confess" a scripture is that *you've already realized that it is true*. That's the only thing that's important.
With regard to memorizing and quoting Scripture, I'll pull an example.

"I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you." Psalm 119:11

Now when I quote this verse (that I had actually memorized) I don't see how it applies as a spell. Rather I memorized the verse because it's a wise teaching that reveals *why* to memorize scripture. Namely, so that you know what it says, so that you will not sin against God. Granted, you might still sin, but education is the key to prevention, right?

If you consider that this post counts as a spell than I"m obviously missing something on your end of things. Think of it this way, taking said scripture, you verbalise it in your mouth until it becomes ingrained into your memory, then as you memories the scripture more it begins to change your mental faculties until the reality of the words you have been repeating bears out in your behaviour. (Do you follow so far?)
As your mind and your soul focus on this scripture you then generate the energy you gather during worship and other exercises, to empower your belief and the patytern you have created in your mind. Sort of Like building a microchip and then attaching it to your computer to perform a specific function. Until ultimately, you create the desired result.
Voilla, Manifestation and you begin to not want to "Sin against God", hence you want to "Hide more of his word into your heart." you have just cast your first spell.


Ultimately the "Help me out" approach to Christianity will fail miserably. People don't need help, they need changed. God does help out his children and lead them, but the focus is *always* on God. God has a plan for my life, a path that he wants me to follow. His help is always directed at getting me back on his course. there is the difference between how our two religions percieve things. We are the ones who change our own behaviour. Not Our gods/goddesses. It's like this, MOrrigan asked me to quit smoking as a sacrifice to her on Halloween. (You would be amazed as to how few sacrificable virgens there are in NYC). I could have easily said No, and she would have not said anythign about it. but Since I agreed to do so She helped me out in different ways so that I actually was able to quit cold turkey.
As We grow in our relationship with our deities, sure they give us instructions but ultimately we are responsible for our own behaviour and we are the ones who will change it or not. We dont need some cosmic sugar daddy to come and rescue us from guilt. these are things we do for ourselves and take control of our lives. Why? because you really cannot discern the true motives of someoen who is willing to change you and not let you learn aything from it.

If I think of my relationship with God as something to "help me out" as I go along my life, I will quickly become frustrated, jaded and angry because the point is not to go along *my* life. The point is to abandon my life and ask God what he wants me to do.
As I gain more understanding of God's truth, i learn that relying on myself at all will result in failure. The relationship is that of a Father/Son. And when I say a son, I mean a small child who is utterly dependent.

God hears our prayers because he *loves* us, which is a different kind of love spell entirely.

Apologies for the excessive use of dark text but,

"Therefore, sInce we have such a hope we are very bold." 2 Corinthians 3:12

:wink:
Bold as in Not timid, Not bold as in excessive use of the bold feature.

[Cu Mhorrigan]

Justin you are 72 years old?

[technomage]

Justin you are 72 years old?
Good heavens, I thought you were 21 or 22. :lol:

[markporter]

Think of it this way, taking said scripture, you verbalise it in your mouth until it becomes ingrained into your memory, then as you memories the scripture more it begins to change your mental faculties until the reality of the words you have been repeating bears out in your behaviour. (Do you follow so far?)As your mind and your soul focus on this scripture you then generate the energy you gather during worship and other exercises, to empower your belief and the patytern you have created in your mind. Sort of Like building a microchip and then attaching it to your computer to perform a specific function. Until ultimately, you create the desired result.
Voilla, Manifestation and you begin to not want to "Sin against God", hence you want to "Hide more of his word into your heart." you have just cast your first spell.


This seems to reduce spells to virtually nothing. That description sounds like an entirely natural mental process with no mystical connotations at all other than the fact that it occurs in the context of worship. It's just thought processes.

[nyaminche]

Think of it this way, taking said scripture, you verbalise it in your mouth until it becomes ingrained into your memory, then as you memories the scripture more it begins to change your mental faculties until the reality of the words you have been repeating bears out in your behaviour. (Do you follow so far?)
As your mind and your soul focus on this scripture you then generate the energy you gather during worship and other exercises, to empower your belief and the patytern you have created in your mind. Sort of Like building a microchip and then attaching it to your computer to perform a specific function. Until ultimately, you create the desired result.
Voilla, Manifestation and you begin to not want to "Sin against God", hence you want to "Hide more of his word into your heart." you have just cast your first spell.

There are a couple points that I don't think come out in your statement. For one thing, you attribute everything that God does, to me.
As far as "generating energy" and "gathering energy", the only thing that Christians have to do in that sense is ASK.
The entire Christian Energy Management Strategy comes down to "Ask God for it."
Worship and "other exercises"(what are these) are not a source of "energy". God is *the* source of spiritual replenishment.
If I memorize a phrase of scripture, I may be building a microchip. But I can't plug it in and have it work for me. Only God can do that. The proof is in the fact that no amount of Scripture memorization will enable a non-Christian to change their will, and make them not want to "Sin against God". Only God can ever do that, and he can (and does) do that with Scripture.

Notice that there are also all sorts of extremely knowledgable jaded Christians who have not experienced this sort of change of will, because although they've memorized Scripture they've not allowed God to change them.

there is the difference between how our two religions percieve things. We are the ones who change our own behaviour. Not Our gods/goddesses. It's like this, MOrrigan asked me to quit smoking as a sacrifice to her on Halloween. (You would be amazed as to how few sacrificable virgens there are in NYC). I could have easily said No, and she would have not said anythign about it. but Since I agreed to do so She helped me out in different ways so that I actually was able to quit cold turkey.
As We grow in our relationship with our deities, sure they give us instructions but ultimately we are responsible for our own behaviour and we are the ones who will change it or not. We dont need some cosmic sugar daddy to come and rescue us from guilt. these are things we do for ourselves and take control of our lives. Why?

Christians are also responsible for our own behaviour. When we sin, God lets us know about it (for sure!) and we have to confess it, renounce it, and repent from it. That's our part. The best analogy I can think of is that God represents a light bulb in our life, and we control the dimmer switch. We don't produce any light, but we are the ones responsible for making sure that light shines(On an individual level).

I agree that we come to a glaring contrast between doctrines. Guilt and conscience can be suppressed and even killed, if you diligently work at it. But there's only one way to kill SIN and the consequences of it.

The Bible is clear in its teaching with respect to controlling our own lives. We are never in control of our own lives - we are always servant to a master. We are either servants to sin or servants to Jesus. There is no middle ground.

The evidence of this is quite simply unmistakable. A glance at any newspaper today reveals that the world is serving sin's (and the devil's) purposes, at home and abroad. At the same time, this state results from people who will tell you that they are not serving sin's purposes, but their own. They will say that they are in control of their own life. But when you look at the result of people's own 'control', you see chaos, murder, rape, starvation, war, and death, reigning over the world.
because you really cannot discern the true motives of someone who is willing to change you and not let you learn aything from it.
God's motives are clear. He loves us and he wants us to be close to him spiritually. He doesn't want us to suffer or die, and he is grieved when we choose that route for ourselves.

Not let us learn anything from it?????
God wants us to learn from the changing process. His Spirit is actively involved in teaching us. In fact, he opens our spiritual eyes and makes us alive.

And the bit about the bold was a bad pun, wink wink.

:wink: :wink:

[nyaminche]

This seems to reduce spells to virtually nothing. That description sounds like an entirely natural mental process with no mystical connotations at all other than the fact that it occurs in the context of worship. It's just thought processes.

Memorization is a natural process, but I think that what we're talking about goes a little bit further than rote learning. Here's what I think is going on.

I do in fact memorize scripture exactly as I memorize other things (eg. bold words(sorry, couldn't resist the reference) from a textbook). Memorization is a thought process involving storing something in neurons parked above you left eye (I think that's where they hang out). Anyone can do this, this is what I did when I quoted the verse, it is the same as if I was regurgitating the definition of enthalpy(or what have you).There's nothing inherantly spiritual about it.

My choice of verse and my accompanying blurb were a bit ambiguous as the verse in question does not speak about memorization alone.

Hiding God's word in my heart does not mean just memorizing it. If so, it would not be able to change me any more than memorizing said definition of enthalpy would do. I'd be able to regurgitate the definition (or the verse) but that would be as far as things went.

What it does mean is meditating on it. I can meditate on it from dawn 'til dusk if I like, but if God doesn't give me an understanding of it, I may as well think about enthalpy for 8 hours instead. The beauty of the situation is that when we're keen on listening to what God has to say, he will give us understanding that is true, spiritual, and greater than anything we can come up with.
Again the model is well described by a son ASKING his father a question (Maybe something he heard at school). Sometimes the father will tell the son that he's asking the wrong question, sometimes he will direct the son to what is relevant, and often (if the son is going on the right track) he will give the son the answer that the son needs. Sometimes he will tell the son to go paint a fence or to go make his bed, because he knows that halfway through the task, the son will twig on to to the answer.

If the Son has his heart set on a specific answer and isn't really interested in listening to his father's reply, something will go awry. Often it results in a spanking somewhere along the line. (Ain't it the case!)

Again, all the wisdom comes from the father. Someone who is not the Man's son will surely not (a) understand the answer and (b) get the answer, because they don't know the Man (he's a grownup stranger) and they're not willing to subject themselves to his discipline.

So knowledge or memorization of Scripture is far separated from understanding of it. The only way to gain a true understanding of it is for God to teach it to you. And God *does* want to teach us.

The process is not one of: memorize scripture -> have it change our mental faculties -> focus our mind and soul to generate gathered energy -> use this to empower the pattern we constructed.
(If I'm misrepresenting the process you described, please let me know)

The process is *closer to* memorize scripture -> it sits there like a dull fact -> God gives us understanding that makes the scripture spiritually real and alive to us -> we go off and act on this understanding, as God directs us.

Christianity is concerned with what (1)God wants and (2) Jesus (See #1). It has nothing to do with what humans want. Spell casting seems to have everything to do with what *we* want, and seeking a deity's help in obtaining it.

The beauty is realizing that the best thing that we can ever want, is what God wants.

[tmancour]

It seems odd that there are no Christian spells, then, nor does Christian power seem to be able to be wielded, even by those who try to wield it.


Sure there are -- you guys just don't like acknowleging them. There are plenty of instances, from the earliest days of the Church, of people accessing the power of Jehovah in an essentially magickal way. 2nd century Egyptian papyri have been found with Christian and OT texts used as talismans, amulets, and more direct spells. Thaumaturgically speaking there is no real difference between Christian and Pagan magick.


I have indeed sensed the presence of God in times of worship, and that is the power of God, and why prayer brings it, not words or incantations, but inviting his presence.

And similarly also, with other powers, with Wiccan deities, Hindu deities, pagan/druidical deities, they bring their power with their presence, and spells are a sleight of hand! Now that we are propounding our views.


Same thing. The invocations, rituals, and words are merely a focus for the psychological trick of inviting the deity into your presence. The words themselves don't contain the power, nor does the mudra, but the practitioner behind the words and actions is what manipulates the power. Spells are just a much more efficient way of manipulating that power psychologically than most people have with prayer. (There are exceptions -- I've known some powerful pray-ers in my time!)


A pertinent question to ask here is why are these non-Christian deities being so generous? What do we bring to the table, that makes them so anxious to assist us in acquiring powers? What's in it for them, if the power is free for everyone, and at their disposal, and even, for the most part, they embody it?

They have our best interest in mind? But well, they squabble, this would not assure me of their best interest, regarding lesser beings, those who oppose each other for bad reasons, must be considered willing to oppose myself, similarly, at times.


a) They help us because we are Their children. They want to see us mature and prosper. What they get out of it is the satisfaction that they raised us right.

b) You are confusing Myth with Religion. The stories you read about the gods squabbling are morality tales and mystery teachings, intended as profound allegory -- but they are not, in and of themselves, Religion, i.e. our daily and personal relationship with the deity. Does the sea oppose the shore? Does the Sky oppose the Land? You can look at it that way, I suppose, if it was theologically useful, but the reality is that all of nature, and by extension, all of the gods, are all part of one big highly efficient system.


Not enough harmful acts means some murderers should be released? Encouraged?! An excess of kindness and good will must not be allowed to happen?

Do you measure the good you have done for your friends each week, and trip them up or something, to restore balance to the force, if need be?

"An it harm no one, do as you please" is actually rather unbalanced, too, the predators indeed, would starve.


The Rede is intended as a guideline for humans, not animals -- death in the service of the lifeforce is inherently noble. Your ideas about balance are a little dualistic.

[tmancour]

Yet the 10 serferot are actual emanations of G-d and ultimately of the Eyn SOF....and they are function in balance to make them Echad. EVen Kabbalah teaches that to be on one side of the tree of life, to the exclusion of the other...is EVIL>

In other words, to have a myth depliciting only one aspect of the seferot of say "judgement" to the exclusion of any kind of "mercy" or compassion is to make that seferot function in an evil way...because the tree of life is all about balance...and the balancing of the serferot bringing G-d's KINGDOM into the earth.

So...if we have myth about a "goddess" who is war-like and strong...and this is to reflect the serferot of Gueverah...strength...then to have her be a separate entity is evil. Because strength must be tempered with "lovingkindness". When we personify the serferot we make another G-d unlike the TRUE G-d...which is the balance of all in perfect order.

The holy name of G-d, the tetragrammatron, is unlike any other god...or goddess. It is the balance of ALL the emanations into one perfect, holy and set apart Unity. To worship only one "aspect" of G-d in the form of a smaller god or goddess is evil in that it creates imbalance.

There is a created order to all of existence. Looking for that order in the lesser gods is not the path to what is true. Using spells and incanatations to change the world ...or just your own world...is the lazy way to influence our world. It does not bring Tikkun ...healing. The only restoration of the order of G-d in creation that is available is by telling men what is true. What is "good", what is right. No spells can dispell that damage mankind has done to G-d's world..and to himself. To believe that some connection with a lessor god will somehow give meaning to life is to worship the creature...instead of the creator.


One of the axioms of almost every mystical system is that the easiest way in which to change and influence the world is by changing yourself. Spells, in and of themselves, are not the purpose of Paganism and Wicca. They are a useful and sometimes convenient tool for acheiving the higher purpose of mystical enlightenment, the attainment of wisdom, and the pursuit of the meaningful and happy life.

Your historically based tribal tradition tells you that looking at seperate emanations of the godhead is evil; my tribal tradition (currently evolving) tells me that as each of us is an individual, the means by which we achieve balance will be different in every case. My focus on Brighid is very important to me -- in this lifetime. But it is one small part of a continuum of growth and development that spans many lifetimes, and it has many more to go. Next time around I might have an affinity for a masculine deity with a less wisdom-oriented principal. Or a deity whose aspect represents another matter which my soul needs to be tempered with. Telling me that my adoration and relationship with my Goddess is evil is like saying that it is evil to read just one word at a time.

Arion

[nyaminche]

Sure there are -- you guys just don't like acknowleging them. There are plenty of instances, from the earliest days of the Church, of people accessing the power of Jehovah in an essentially magickal way. 2nd century Egyptian papyri have been found with Christian and OT texts used as talismans, amulets, and more direct spells. Thaumaturgically speaking there is no real difference between Christian and Pagan magick.

Yes there is - the difference is that Christian magick (the use of texts and amulets as you describe) is unbiblical. Simply put, it's not part of sound Christian doctrine. Neither is it acceptable.
They are a useful and sometimes convenient tool for acheiving the higher purpose of mystical enlightenment, the attainment of wisdom, and the pursuit of the meaningful and happy life.

It's interesting that you call them a tool. Christians are not to use tools (the implication with a tool is that you use it yourself, with appropriate wielding skill) to reach enlightenment, wisdom, or meaning. We are meant to ask God (which is made possible by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross) for all of these things. And we are meant to turn *exclusively* to God for these things.

Same thing. The invocations, rituals, and words are merely a focus for the psychological trick of inviting the deity into your presence. The words themselves don't contain the power, nor does the mudra, but the practitioner behind the words and actions is what manipulates the power. Spells are just a much more efficient way of manipulating that power psychologically than most people have with prayer. (There are exceptions -- I've known some powerful pray-ers in my time!)

God indwells every Christian. The extent that they realize this and choose to respond to this varies, but no psychological trick is required to invite him into our presence. Neither do we manipulate God or his power. That is absurd. When people try to do that through prayer, is when pray fails! (Eg, O please God, let me win the lottery)

Powerful pray-ers are the ones who don't attempt to manipulate at all, but ask God to exercise his will and power.

[markporter]

Thaumaturgically speaking

The next time in this thread someone says that I'm going to scream.

[technomage]

The next time in this thread someone says that I'm going to scream.
Really? Promise? :grin:

[nyaminche]

This is kind of a rant, but only a miniature one.
As far as spells go, in my opinion even if they don't "work" in a way where you can float an object or something ridiculious like that, can't they still be considered the equivalent of a prayer? The only differences(in the type I would use anyway) are the use of objects, days, times, etc to symbolize different things. That could just be considered a way to focus your mind on the prayer.
I don't see why prayers are so widely accepted, but if someone mentions doing a spell people see it as foolish. I guess it's just things they've heard from the media...but it's still kind of annoying.
Sorry, junipersilver, I've gone on quite a bit but I've never really addressed your question. I guess I should, seeing as how I'm posting in this thread :wink:

I would say it comes down to a widely misinformed public. I wouldn't be surprised if most people probably thought that Wicca was just a minimal expansion on animist/"primitive" beliefs, but I can't speak for the general clueless public.

Anyway, I would chalk it up to a general lack of understanding about Wicca in general, and a widespread skepticism about the spiritual forces involved.
Also, in popular culture spellcasting is lumped in the same fairytale storybook as hansel and gretel and the three little pigs.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Best wishes on your interview, Cu...

Lee: It seems odd that there are no Christian spells, then, nor does Christian power seem to be able to be wielded, even by those who try to wield it.

Justin: Says who?
Says you! Well, implies you, and others, in saying that Christians invariably dissipate the power they raise, instead of focusing it. Maybe, since people do try and focus (read "wield") it, as everyone also acknowledges, the failure is simply because it can't be done.

Arion: 2nd century Egyptian papyri have been found with Christian and OT texts used as talismans, amulets, and more direct spells.
And these talismans are not, apparently, being sought by Christians nowadays. Perhaps these ideas fell into disuse. Perhaps there is a reason these ideas fell into disuse.

Cu: When you make it a point to memorise and quote scripture you are actually casting spells.
The prayer of Jabez (1 Chr. 4:10) comes to mind, I saw posts that did say "Pray this prayer every day and XX and $$ and !! will happen." I have also noted that I have not read any such posts for a while now. Why would that be, if this was a real spell, with real power? You would think the volume would have intensified, as people found it worked that way.

Lee: They have our best interest in mind? But well, they squabble...

Cu: Basically Morrigan called me because I was Funny.
And if you cease being funny? Would she still have your best interest in mind, and protect you from any consequences of wars she might be involved in?

Lee: Wouldn't that be unbalanced, though, if human predators stopped eating other people?

Cu: to the pagan mindset if we show them there are other methods of gathering energy (As opposed to stealling it from their enemy) we help them find other avenues of gaining what they need.
Then this value of theirs is incorrect! It really is absolutely wrong to steal spiritual power (assuming cannibalism really does work as they expect), and thus stealing is absolutely wrong? I do agree.

Nyaminche: There are a couple points that I don't think come out in your statement. For one thing, you attribute everything that God does, to me.
That is the essence of the difference between spells and prayers, yes.

Arion: The invocations, rituals, and words are merely a focus for the psychological trick of inviting the deity into your presence.
Invitation, yes, focus, well in Christian prayer, the focus must be on God, trick, well, if you know what is happening, it's not a trick.

Arion: The stories you read about the gods squabbling are morality tales and mystery teachings, intended as profound allegory...
What can be profound about petty jealousy, double-crossing, slurs and lust and foolishness? Days of Our Lives is not profound, and that kind of soap just gets you dirty.

Does the sea oppose the shore? Does the Sky oppose the Land?
Hurricanes come to mind.

Lee: "An it harm no one, do as you please" is actually rather unbalanced, too, the predators indeed, would starve.

Arion: The Rede is intended as a guideline for humans, not animals -- death in the service of the lifeforce is inherently noble.
Predation, too? Why is Gaia not to be imitated, here? If she is right there along with the goddesses?

If you must tell me that human predation is wrong, I shall agree! Absolutely wrong, this is not a value that is subject to opinion.

That's the whole problem with relative values, when they impinge on each other, then people do not say "Let the strongest/luckiest/cleverest win!" They make such statements as you and Cu have made above, as if in some instances, one value is indeed to be rejected, as really wrong.

Cann I. Bal: "Nothing personal! Everyone has their own frame of reference, and we must be tolerant of each other's views. Now would you have any suggestions, by way of spices?"

Well, no...

Your ideas about balance are a little dualistic.
And if you tell me of balance, I shall think of two opposites...

Now I do believe in balance! Enjoy a feast now and again, but don't be gluttonous. All work and no play is not good, nor is all play and no work. Exercise some, and then take a nap.

But making balance a principle value (an absolute one!), won't do, for then we have some awkward balances to maintain, balances no one would consider acting and correcting.

The Wiccans should be picketing the disease control centers, for a release of some of that smallpox?

"The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone." (G.K. Chesterton)

To speak of balance as if it was the primary virtue is to be, well, unbalanced...

Blessings,
Lee

[technomage]

Says you! Well, implies you, and others, in saying that Christians invariably dissipate the power they raise, instead of focusing it.

Ah, but I don't say that. I have noted it among the Pentecostal churches in the South, but have noted the power does not behave the same up North. So maybe some Christians are more successful than others...

:ponder:

[betzerg]

All true. Betzerg, most Wiccans and Pagans are functionally monotheists. The balance you speak of--refusing to prefer hadin over ha'rahamin--is exactly the same balance that we seek. This is the balance that Cu speaks of, and that Lee misunderstands and misconstrues so badly.


Betzerg, is it "evil" for a child to have to learn to walk before he can learn to run? And in the face of such a wealth and depth and heighth of our human ignorance concerning the Creator, is it at all amazing that as we learn to walk, we take steps that one more experienced would consider "baby steps?"

Cu is young (I'm almost twice his age), and he's Gentile (as I am) ... you know as well as I do that there are plenty of students of the Torah who wouldn't count Cu important enough to give him the time of day! Yet Cu loves the Creator, and he tries--perhaps feebly, or childishly, or even foolishly--to do the best that he can.

As do I. As do we all.

Oh contrare...every person is of value in Judaism. To the point of stating that to kill one person is to kill an entire universe. And Cu presents as much opportunity to teach us about life as a torah scholar...only in differing ways.

It is the "trying"...it is the "attempting" that is pleasing to HaShem...not even so much as being "right"...or "correct". In fact, judiasm teaches that it is the questions that bring us greatest joy....not necessarily the "answers".

At shabbot tonight we were asking for responses to a conference date, and a little girl about 7 raised her hand. The rabbi ask if she had a question and she began...in front of the entire congregation...to express a need for us all to pray for her friend willie. All around her...her mother..her friends...we're saying to her "this is not the time for this...this is not about prayer". The rabbi hushed them all and said to the little girl. "now what was the name of your friend...WILLIE?...yes..we will pray for willie tonight..the rabbetzn and I...but now is not the time. We will remember this request..thank you."

I have never felt more respected as a person...as a HUMAN BEING..and less expected to be "perfect" or "spiritual" as I do right now in this community. It is this that brings healing to the world. All the spells and incantations in the world could not have touched the heart of myself..or this child..as much as the simple acceptance and love shown by rabbi.

And when I hear of the scwabbles of the gods and the goddesses and the less than human aspects of their divine arrogance and disrepect for their creator...It saddens me. IN all of antiquity there has NEVER been a G-d like YHVH. He presents HIMSELF as the balance of all that is REAL and TRUE. HE alone is HOLY and set apart...HE alone brings order and dignity to his creatures.

IN response to the reasons you don't cheat on your wife...that it's too much trouble...I think the deeper issue here is that you would GO to the trouble because there is something intrensic in man that wants to protect those they love. This is called morality. And when you LOVE the world...all the world...you will not engage in certain sexual/emotional manipulations because this MORALITY keeps you from doing so. The ten commandments are not a judicial decree to "judge" the world...they are a covenantal agreement between HaSHEM and his people that show us what MORALITY and LOVE really looks like. It is something so beautiful and so powerful...the ten WORDS.

SO I look god and goddess directly in the face and say...you, also will stand before the judgement seat of HaShem and you will reap the rewards of your actions on earth. To be worshipped...to seek power...to disregard the order of G-d's creation....these are IMMORAL acts..."on that day all abominations will cease...and idoltry will be banished...and G-d will be ONE...and his name ONE"

Shalom,

BETZER

[tmancour]

The next time in this thread someone says that I'm going to scream.


We are discussing spells and magick here. Thaumaturgy is the study of magick. To look at the spells vs. prayer question without recourse to a thaumaturgical view would be pointless.

Scream away.

Arion

[markporter]

We are discussing spells and magick here. Thaumaturgy is the study of magick. To look at the spells vs. prayer question without recourse to a thaumaturgical view would be pointless.

Scream away.

Arion
No one seems to have the need to bring up the phrase 'theologically speaking' once every post in any of the christian areas of the site.

[tmancour]

No one seems to have the need to bring up the phrase 'theologically speaking' once every post in any of the christian areas of the site.


But when you continuously try to look at a thaumaturgical issue through a theurgic (theologic) viewpoint, it bears repeating for emphasis.

A

[scarlett]

comparing spells to prayers?!?!?! mwhahahahahaha :lol:

[scarlett]

i might be a lil late for this but coulndt keep myself from laughing sorry
blessed be.

[junipersilver]

i might be a lil late for this but coulndt keep myself from laughing sorry
blessed be.

just curious, why do you think that's so ridiculous?

[Red Mark]

I think the original question by Junipersilver is excellent. I have noticed that prayers and spells often have in common the desire for power. I would like to present my thoughts, but please be patient with my limited understanding.

Requests of God are often treated more like demands or manipulation and so approach something akin to what some might consider magick. Some believe that an "effective" prayer is a good prayer because it causes or forces God to do something. All this really starts to sound like a spell.

My limitation is knowing about spells. Within some systems, there do seem to be spells that call on an impersonal force. This does not seem to be a request proper. Requests are made of beings who have freedom of will, freedom to decide what they themselves think and feel and will do. Within some magick traditions, there is a place for this.

Spells seem to be a means of gaining or using power. Prayers are often for gaining power too. Inner belief and concentration seems to be a requirement of magick. Inner belief or trust is a requirement of God's greater and personal power. I say "greater" not as a contrast to magick, though I do believe that, but I say "greater" because I believe God's power is already at work without our belief or trust. Within spells, some people do use spells to try to rebalance perceived injustices. Within prayer, people will ask God for justice. I wonder if there is a place for mercy within spellcraft?

The distinction of prayer is that the practitioner behind the words/actions is NOT what manipulates the power. Magick seems to reflect a desire to change/influence the world by changing oneself. Spells reflect an assumption that one can change oneself. Within many systems, prayer reflects instead a desire to have oneself be changed by God. Prayer then reflects the assumption that one cannot change oneself. Where magick reflects a belief of independence, prayer reflects one's dependence on God.

Spell seems to reflect human potential within, and prayer reflects the potential of God who comes to live within. But spell also sometimes reflects dependence on lesser spiritual beings of this world. Christianity has a place of belief in this, but most Christianities consider the practice to be immoral. I suspect the reasoning is that, on the one hand, the lesser beings are believed to be untrustworthy, opposed to our ultimate success, and so dangerous to welcome; that is, they offer short-term gain to us only at long-term greater loss. Another reason might be that turning to lesser spiritual beings implies a lack of trust in God's response. It makes little sense to turn to lesser beings created by God to oppose God Himself; it makes no sense to return to lesser beings for help when God has just rescued me from the damage and enslavement caused by the lesser spiritual being who I trusted.

Yes, people make requests of God for change in the world. And this aspect seems to answer the desires one might have within spellcasting. Prayer is also a means of communication, and so not for the purpose of power/change in the sense of spellcraft. Spell, as far as I understand, is always a request or attempt to gain power. Prayer is not.

Take seriously the existence of a person who values, loves, and cares about you; someone trustworthy who created you, wants you, respects you, accepts you, and sees you as of great worth. Frustrating attempts to manipulate this person through speech and ritual no longer make sense. You see, the deeper respectful caring relational connection with this person is the goal itself. Manipulation would be against one's desire for a healthy loving respectful relationship. Requests outside that goal are secondary. And so then it should also be clear that prayer is not merely request; prayer is sharing and connection with someone who loves us, accepts us, knows us, wants to know us more; someone we desire to love, accept, know, and want to be closer with. But again, prayer is a reflection of one's need and dependence on God--because we are not powerful or able independent of God.

For some reason, spellcasting, within its religious framework, does not seem to reflect those important aspects of prayer found within many forms of Christianity. I would be curious to hear more about other traditions though. Spellcasting as tools toward enlightenment, wisdom, and happiness appears to reflect similiar Christian goals. Though "tool" sounds more manipulative and independent than simple sharing of thought and emotion with another person. If I said that my words are a "tool" I use to gain something from my wife, most would say something is going on different than merely my sharing of thoughts and feelings with her. But if the spell itself is impersonal, then we have a found a distinct difference between prayer and spell. Prayer is personal and thus words like "tool" become disrespectful when used in personal settings.

Christians have many desires that are expressed in prayer, and I wonder if there is a similar parallel in spellcasting. For example, personal meaning, inner peace, living forever, change of the world, the rebalance of justice for injustices we ourselves cause, change of soul in this life, repair and rescue of relationships between people, loss of greed, self-control, escape from addiction, freedom from demonic control, rescue from the traps of lesser spiritual beings, enjoyment in other people's successes, enlightenment of knowing oneself, being patient and gentle with others, truly caring and loving others, personal safety, accepting other people, being kind and helping others with needs, listening and spending time together, not judging or looking down on others, finding the beauty and good things we see in one another, loving physical touch that is not for selfish gratification, giving gifts without expecting anything in return.

Right now, many of those just don't seem to fit into what I know of magick practices. I could be wrong, but within the magick religious traditions even something as simple as gift-giving seems to be presented as something with expectations or strings attached. That just doesn't make sense to me. The very purpose of power desired from prayer is so that one might give gifts of love. The very purpose of power is so that one might be at peace and love others. Ultimately, the purpose of power is so that one might love and trust God, and find pleasurable happiness in one's relationship with Him.

[tmancour]

I think the original question by Junipersilver is excellent. I have noticed that prayers and spells often have in common the desire for power. I would like to present my thoughts, but please be patient with my limited understanding.


Not a problem. But from your post, you seem to have a limited grasp of what magick and spellcasting are all about. While it is true that many types of magick are concerned with "power" of one form or another, most Pagan types use the techniques of magick to develop what we call "Power from Within", not "Power Over _____." In essense, we use magick as a way of changing the universe -- and the easiest way to change the universe is to change ourselves.

The idea here is not whether or not a divinity changes you or you change yourself, but that the change happens. It's not manipulative, like you make it sound. To quote Tros of Samothrace, "The Gods don't answer prayers, they grant opportunities." Usually magick is a way of arranging an opportunity. The same could be said of prayer.


Spell seems to reflect human potential within, and prayer reflects the potential of God who comes to live within. But spell also sometimes reflects dependence on lesser spiritual beings of this world. Christianity has a place of belief in this, but most Christianities consider the practice to be immoral. I suspect the reasoning is that, on the one hand, the lesser beings are believed to be untrustworthy, opposed to our ultimate success, and so dangerous to welcome; that is, they offer short-term gain to us only at long-term greater loss. Another reason might be that turning to lesser spiritual beings implies a lack of trust in God's response. It makes little sense to turn to lesser beings created by God to oppose God Himself; it makes no sense to return to lesser beings for help when God has just rescued me from the damage and enslavement caused by the lesser spiritual being who I trusted.


I would say that what you perceive as "turning to lesser spiritual beings" (i.e., The Gods, as opposed to Jehovah) is a simplistic view of polytheistic theology. It is not that we do not trust in some ultimate divine force -- something has to keep the atoms together, after all -- its that we, as human beings, have a difficult time relating to that force on a personal level, and we, as Pagans, object to that force being personified by a Semetic tribal divinity with delusions of grandeur at the expense of all other representations.

In twenty years of practice, I have not once seen a case of a "lesser spiritual being" damaging and enslaving anyone. I have seen my fair share of idiots who talk their way into psychosis. The unconditional love of the Goddess (Caritas) is not an "enslavement", nor is it damaging. If it is, then every human who had a mother is damaged somehow, and I refuse to believe that.


Yes, people make requests of God for change in the world. And this aspect seems to answer the desires one might have within spellcasting. Prayer is also a means of communication, and so not for the purpose of power/change in the sense of spellcraft. Spell, as far as I understand, is always a request or attempt to gain power. Prayer is not.


Spellcasting is not always an attempt to gain power; Spellcasting can be used as a means of communication between us and the Gods. Paganism is replete with rituals of thanksgiving and honor for the divine, without really asking for anything.



Take seriously the existence of a person who values, loves, and cares about you; someone trustworthy who created you, wants you, respects you, accepts you, and sees you as of great worth. Frustrating attempts to manipulate this person through speech and ritual no longer make sense. You see, the deeper respectful caring relational connection with this person is the goal itself. Manipulation would be against one's desire for a healthy loving respectful relationship. Requests outside that goal are secondary.


Which is why it galls us Pagans when Christians reject the very idea of the Goddess, who is a representation of all motherhood -- the very definition of unconditional love -- in favor of an alliance with a preachy, coercive deity like Jehovah who lays down a lot of silly, easy-to-transgress laws concerning this whacky notion called "sin" and then punishes the slightest deviation with an eternity of pointless, hopeless suffering. Our Goddess does not tell us how to live. She guides us in the best way to live, and holds us personally responsible for our personal actions. She never stops loving us, and would never condemn Her children to needless suffering.


And so then it should also be clear that prayer is not merely request; prayer is sharing and connection with someone who loves us, accepts us, knows us, wants to know us more; someone we desire to love, accept, know, and want to be closer with. But again, prayer is a reflection of one's need and dependence on God--because we are not powerful or able independent of God.


By your definition, Pagans pray, too. But we are at peace with our personal power, not willing to abdicate the responsibility of that power to a divinity perceived as all-powerful. There is a certain amount of independence from the Goddess (one cannot stay a child forever, after all) but our Divine Will, a reflection of Her own, is omnipresent.


For some reason, spellcasting, within its religious framework, does not seem to reflect those important aspects of prayer found within many forms of Christianity. I would be curious to hear more about other traditions though. Spellcasting as tools toward enlightenment, wisdom, and happiness appears to reflect similiar Christian goals. Though "tool" sounds more manipulative and independent than simple sharing of thought and emotion with another person. If I said that my words are a "tool" I use to gain something from my wife, most would say something is going on different than merely my sharing of thoughts and feelings with her. But if the spell itself is impersonal, then we have a found a distinct difference between prayer and spell. Prayer is personal and thus words like "tool" become disrespectful when used in personal settings.

Christians have many desires that are expressed in prayer, and I wonder if there is a similar parallel in spellcasting. For example, personal meaning, inner peace, living forever, change of the world, the rebalance of justice for injustices we ourselves cause, change of soul in this life, repair and rescue of relationships between people, loss of greed, self-control, escape from addiction, freedom from demonic control, rescue from the traps of lesser spiritual beings, enjoyment in other people's successes, enlightenment of knowing oneself, being patient and gentle with others, truly caring and loving others, personal safety, accepting other people, being kind and helping others with needs, listening and spending time together, not judging or looking down on others, finding the beauty and good things we see in one another, loving physical touch that is not for selfish gratification, giving gifts without expecting anything in return.

Right now, many of those just don't seem to fit into what I know of magick practices. I could be wrong, but within the magick religious traditions even something as simple as gift-giving seems to be presented as something with expectations or strings attached. That just doesn't make sense to me. The very purpose of power desired from prayer is so that one might give gifts of love. The very purpose of power is so that one might be at peace and love others. Ultimately, the purpose of power is so that one might love and trust God, and find pleasurable happiness in one's relationship with Him.


You're right. There is much you do not understand about magick.

One of the principles of magick is that everything is connected to everything else, and that every action has consequences -- mostly unforeseen. It is not a cold, calculated balance sheet with a spiritual profit/loss ratio, it's more an acknowlegement of natural laws that govern how the universe works. You can think of both spells and prayer as "spiritual technologies" if you like, a series of spiritual techniques and disciplines. The major difference is that prayer leaves much of the technique open to the whims of fortune, while magick attempts to be more efficient by considering those (super)natural laws which govern the universe.

But there are differences, the greatest being the Radical Monotheistic tendancy towards giving up personal responsibility in favor of Divine Will, while Pagans tend to view exploration of their personality and development of their own personal Divine Will as more desirable and ethically proper.

[shootsj1]

I have to ask you say spells is like yo u do this and you get it does that mean that your getting what you want before it is time, (for your personal gain).
And prayer is something that comes when you work hard and be patient for it?
I looked at wicca, and I've seen christianity, They are both hard to understand in the beginning and whatever someone decides to follow is being human. Yeah it says god turns away from those who practice majick. But also god doesn't hate anyone. So even if you are a "witch", there's still hope people shouldn't hate people who decide to be witches and witches shouldn't hate christians. We has humans have no right to pre-judge someone. So christians that pre-judge someone cause of their religion has commited a sin and in god's eye are bound to hell. But 2000 years ago as in christianity religion "jesus christ" died on the cross for sin. He knew we as humans are not perfect and will be more easily tempted by sin, So he died on the cross thats were we as humans have a chance to come to god. Cause through christ we were saved. If this did not happen, think about this what would happen if we did something wrong there's no hope at all. And this world would be so much more corrupt. The balance of good vs evil would not be equal.
Evil would have probaly the upper hand, look around everyday when you leave your home. I know it is very hard to be christian and believe in something that we can't physically see, but in wicca it's the same way when you start out you can't see things you have to believe in your heart. So no matter what religion you are, it doesn't matter just like what crime you have commited there's repent. Sure when you sin it hurts god, every sin that we commit against god is one lash or mark on jesus christ. Before anyone says anything about this "thread" would you take a test? Go to www.wayofthemaster.com Next time you run into someone who is a witch and you despise hate towards them as a christian you should know that's like breaking one of the ten commandments. I'll have to get back to you on that commandment, I can't think which one it is. Hatred towards someone is like murder. And all murders will not enter into god's kingdom also known as ( spirit world). So please don't have hatred towards anyone or pre judge anyone. There's only one that has judgement over us. So whatever you do in this life just remember believe in yourself, others have no judgement over you. No one can hurt you spirtually only one can have the final say so over you. Man can hurt your physical body only. So go out into this world and do not Fear man.

Thanks to all and be safe, Jason.

Were all on the same planet together were family under one place.
So let's get along, it is evil's grand design to get us to hate each other but if we confuse evil with love towards those that have done bad things and forgive then maybe one day evil ways will be no more and we can all know the truth about this world.





Hi everyone,

If I may ask...

Isn't there an essential difference between spells and prayer, though? In spells, it's like "You do this, you get that," in prayer, it's a request, which is then up for review. But magic is said to be like machinery, as I have heard, not like a letter to the alderman about the potholes, but a description on How To Fix Potholes, only by using supernatural power, instead of a rake and a shovel.

Blessings,
Lee

[tmancour]

I have to ask you say spells is like yo u do this and you get it does that mean that your getting what you want before it is time, (for your personal gain).
And prayer is something that comes when you work hard and be patient for it?
I looked at wicca, and I've seen christianity, They are both hard to understand in the beginning and whatever someone decides to follow is being human. Yeah it says god turns away from those who practice majick. But also god doesn't hate anyone. So even if you are a "witch", there's still hope people shouldn't hate people who decide to be witches and witches shouldn't hate christians. We has humans have no right to pre-judge someone. So christians that pre-judge someone cause of their religion has commited a sin and in god's eye are bound to hell. But 2000 years ago as in christianity religion "jesus christ" died on the cross for sin. He knew we as humans are not perfect and will be more easily tempted by sin, So he died on the cross thats were we as humans have a chance to come to god. Cause through christ we were saved. If this did not happen, think about this what would happen if we did something wrong there's no hope at all. And this world would be so much more corrupt. The balance of good vs evil would not be equal.
Evil would have probaly the upper hand, look around everyday when you leave your home. I know it is very hard to be christian and believe in something that we can't physically see, but in wicca it's the same way when you start out you can't see things you have to believe in your heart. So no matter what religion you are, it doesn't matter just like what crime you have commited there's repent. Sure when you sin it hurts god, every sin that we commit against god is one lash or mark on jesus christ. Before anyone says anything about this "thread" would you take a test? Go to www.wayofthemaster.com Next time you run into someone who is a witch and you despise hate towards them as a christian you should know that's like breaking one of the ten commandments. I'll have to get back to you on that commandment, I can't think which one it is. Hatred towards someone is like murder. And all murders will not enter into god's kingdom also known as ( spirit world). So please don't have hatred towards anyone or pre judge anyone. There's only one that has judgement over us. So whatever you do in this life just remember believe in yourself, others have no judgement over you. No one can hurt you spirtually only one can have the final say so over you. Man can hurt your physical body only. So go out into this world and do not Fear man.

Thanks to all and be safe, Jason.

Were all on the same planet together were family under one place.
So let's get along, it is evil's grand design to get us to hate each other but if we confuse evil with love towards those that have done bad things and forgive then maybe one day evil ways will be no more and we can all know the truth about this world.


Jason,

While your good intentions are obvious, your Radical Monotheistic bias is, as well. I see where you are coming from -- but please note that it comes across as a little condescending to us pagan folk.

You speak of judgement, judging, prejudice, sin, and redemption. While I'm sure they have worlds of meaning for you, you have to understand that in the Pagan religions these overly legalisitc concepts don't really apply to our spiritual life. Our lives are not one big court case. They are a master's class in Advanced Humanity. It's an entirely different perspective than the Judeo-Christian-Islamic point of view. Our Goddess is not our judge; She teaches us that our own conscience is our only judge.

Arion

[Science 0f Time]

It's an entirely different perspective than the Judeo-Christian-Islamic point of view. Our Goddess is not our judge; She teaches us that our own conscience is our only judge. Arion

I am totally with you on this one Arion. This means the only true practitioner of paganism posting on this forum is Big Gal Al's homosexual dog "Sparky", lest we do homage to him to spare ourself from his Big Gay Wrath!

"Sparky" teaches us that our own being is our own un-doing!