Hebrews 11:6 Does God hide?

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:31 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=121693#post121693)
Xmansmommy:

Hebrews:11:6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

No one can come to God on their own will, John 6:44. God DEFINETLY HIDES, Is. 42:7, 45:15, 54:7, 42:14, Isaiah 45:15 just comes flat out and says it in plain simple word for word english, you are a God who hides himself, but people cannot see this, they do not understand simple scripture. A carnal mind, or a human mind, cannot understand God on its own will, God must remove the veil that hides himself. But christianity teaches against this, they teach who ever SELF WILLS themselves to God gains his Spirit or sight of him. They teach we can see God whenever we get ready to. Notice the above listed verse of example, Heb. 11:6, Christians think faith is self generated, belief is self generated, so their view of God and salvation is self generated effort, or a self improvement search for God that is generated by a free willed self deceided choice. I understand this misconception, they understand faith to come by hearing the word of God, and that process cannot begin unless the person opens their own ears, this is basically why they view salvation as a humans choice, the option of the human is the emphisis of Gods reaction, thinking God only responds to those who first come to him.

The faith OF GOD, placed within the human, is stronger than human self generated faith. The calling and drawing of God is NOT based on what the human thinks or does, Paul is a great example of that. Paul was a killer, a muderous man, God placed HIS OWN FAITH within Paul, that is the process of real conversion, God moves first, and the condition or belief of the human does not matter to him. Christianity teaches against this, they teach WE must be good, we must first change ourselves, they teach self generated repentance, this is one reason so many of them think highly of themselves, they deserve salvation because of what THEY did, they fourced God out of hideing, and made him convert them, ...; or so they believe.

[yxboom]

I think you have failed to realize you are posting in the Liberal Arts section, debate amongst responders is NOT allowed. If you wish to address the thread starters question feel free to however do not post rebuttals of other respondants as your posts will be deleted. If you wish to debate XMM's points than take it to the appropriate area. Thanks.

[mickiel]

Today @ 06:53 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122178#post122178)
yxboom:

I think you have failed to realize you are posting in the Liberal Arts section, debate amongst responders is NOT allowed. If you wish to address the thread starters question feel free to however do not post rebuttals of other respondants as your posts will be deleted. If you wish to debate XMM's points than take it to the appropriate area. Thanks.

I had no ideal of this, i retract my statement and request it be deleted, i am not one to break rules.

[Xmansmommy]

Thank you :yx: Mickiel, I am not one to debate, but if you wish we can discuss this in the theology section. Perhaps you might address lostseptember's question here and if you further wish to discuss, create a new thread in the appropriate area. I will join in on the discussion there. Thanks Mickiel! :smile:

[Xmansmommy]

Oh no need to retract it Mickiel, you are more than welcome to address the original question posted by lostseptember. It's just that the LA dept is for questions only, not for debate. Thanks.

[Xmansmommy]

I'm sure lostseptember would appreciate your input Mickiel. I think your input would be exactly what he/she is looking for. Hope that helps.

[mickiel]

Today @ 07:01 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122184#post122184)
Xmansmommy:

Oh no need to retract it Mickiel, you are more than welcome to address the original question posted by lostseptember. It's just that the LA dept is for questions only, not for debate. Thanks.

I think God does hide, or perhaps better stated, he does not reveal himself to the world. The reason the world is in the shape it is in now , is directly related to God not revealing himself. The bible is defintel proof that God is dealing with individuals, as he has always done in the existance of the physical world. When sin is dominant in any area of existance, it is so because God is not revealed in that area. Oh God may be involved in that area, but i wonder at times, why God does this? Why does stay hiddened. I have a personal view that when we see harsh evil troubles in certain areas on earth, that it is so because more demons congregate there. The more demons that group together in a human geographical area, the more sin or chaso we will see.

The middle east in certain areas, America , in certain areas, or just any place on earth, not having to single any particular nation out, its everywhere, but more dense in some areas. I think it reasonable to assume where we see more demons, there is less of God. Not to say God is not involved with individuals there, because he is, but i question the notion of demons being around when God is. They will scatter when God comes, or they will come to him when summoned. Demons have got to be involved in something, remember when Christ stummbled across the legion of demons that had jumped on a certain human. They requested to enter the pigs and left. Why couldn't they just leave? Why go into the pigs? I don't understand that, but it implys they must be involved in something physical.

I see the majority of involvement on earth as demonic, not Godly, and it has always been this way according to the bible or mans history books. I think when God reveals himself , every eye shall see him, and understand him. Where God is, peace is, love is, unity and glory is. I do not see this on earth now. I think it is not here, because God is not here, but remember, not to suggest that he is not in individuals, because he is, i just don't personally know any of them.

[yxboom]

There is a statement above the reply box that will tell you that you must agree to the terms of this section to post. Anyway I am going to move the responses to a new thread so you both can discuss it.

[centuri0n]

While I agree with your point that saving faith is not self-generated, I think you take the doctrine too far to say that God "hides".

Consider Rom 1 or John 5: the testimony is evident to the listeners, but they are not willing to accept it. Consider Paul at Mars Hill: God is not very far away from anyone, he says.

God is not the one who is hiding: it is man who "hides". John 1 says the Light comes into the whole world but men hate the light because their deeds are evil. Rom 1 says men turn away from general revelation of God because they are deceived by their own reasoning.

Man does not come to God on his own, but it is not because God is running away from him.

[mickiel]

God is nowhere near earth. Where God is, there is peace and harmony, no sin, no confusion, no evil. Now these things are on earth in amazing levels. The sin and evil on earth is absolute proof , to a reasonable mind, that God IS NOT even near earth. His presence is not even close to earth.

He sent his son here, and we killed him, hung him on a tree. We distort his gospel and speak evil things of God himself. We hate and mistreat each other. We are predigous, lying, disrespectful creatures who don't even know the meaning of love. Then we fool ourselves into thinking that God is here on earth. Pure maddness is the only thing that can even suggest that God is here. God has distanced himself from this maddness, and when he does come to earth, the whole surface of this planet will change, as will the nature of mankind itself.

[centuri0n]

I'd like to begin by saying that the oddly-threatening tone of your post seems rather out of line here in my short visit thus far to TheologyWeb, but everyone has his own style of internet interaction. I am tempted to address every line of your current post, but there's an important question to ask so that I am not talking past you:

Do you posit any authority in the text of the Christian Scriptures? If so, what is the extent of that authority? If not, what is an authority we can trust to settle or mediate the dispute you and I are clearly about to have?

[mickiel]

Today @ 10:28 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=358383#post358383)
centuri0n:

I'd like to begin by saying that the oddly-threatening tone of your post seems rather out of line here in my short visit thus far to TheologyWeb, but everyone has his own style of internet interaction. I am tempted to address every line of your current post, but there's an important question to ask so that I am not talking past you:

Do you posit any authority in the text of the Christian Scriptures? If so, what is the extent of that authority? If not, what is an authority we can trust to settle or mediate the dispute you and I are clearly about to have?






I'll begin by saying I highly disagree with calling the scriptures "christian". The holy bible is not christian. Christianity is a religon that seeks to corner the market on the bible. None of the bible writers were christians, that is a modern-day term. The scriptures are the word of God, not christians. They simply label them to equate themselves with Gods word.

That being said, I will use the new Scofield study bible, new American version, as the basics of my arguement, and common sense. If these are acceptable to you.

[centuri0n]

I'll begin by saying I highly disagree with calling the scriptures "christian". The holy bible is not christian.

That's a diversion from both my question and the original point of my post. We can debate the "Christianity" of the Bible at another time.

Christianity is a religon that seeks to corner the market on the bible. None of the bible writers were christians, that is a modern-day term. The scriptures are the word of God, not christians. They simply label them to equate themselves with Gods word.

Again, a diversion from my original point, but the followers of Christ were called "Christians" first in Antioch in the lifetime of the Apostles -- if we trust the NASB, Acts 11:26.

Calling the Bible "Christian Scriptures" is simply a way to distinguish it from (as two examples) The Quran or the Tanach and Torah without the NT. Why rail on about it?

That being said, I will use the new Scofield study bible, new American version, as the basics of my arguement, and common sense. If these are acceptable to you.

Great! You listed 4 passages in your original post -- the post to which I originally responded:
Is 42:7
Is 42:14
Is 45:15
Is 54:7

In context, we have Is 42:7 --
Is 42:5 Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,
6
"I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
7
To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
8
"I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.
9
"Behold, the former things have come to pass,
Now I declare new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."

Now consider this -- you say v. 7 says "God is hidden". Yet that passage in the first place does not directly reference God, and it appears in the context that God is active and present in this current world. v.5 begins the section by describing God in 3 ways: Creator of the very heavens and Earth; Creator of the very living things on the Earth; and Sustainer of all life, both physical and spiritual. Moreover, Isaiah reports, "Thus says God". Not only is God present in an ontological way (that is to say, in a way necessary to the very being of all things), but He is active and present in that very world as evidenced by His action in speaking out in acts of special revelation.

That issue is not less obvious in v. 6 which begins "I have called you ... I will also hold You by the hand and watch over you". How can God, if not present, do any of these things?

In that context, when God say that he will appoint Israel "as a light to all nations, to open blind eyes, to bring prisoners from the dungeon" in v. 6-7, it is by God's own intervention that those who are blind are enlightened. To say that this passage demonstrates God's inetntion "hiding" is to turn it on its head -- because it is speaking of God's intentional revelation, not His intentional ducking out when or if man seeks Him out.

Is 42:14
"I have kept silent for a long time,
I have kept still and restrained Myself.
Now like a woman in labor I will groan,
I will both gasp and pant.
15
"I will lay waste the mountains and hills
And wither all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers into coastlands
And dry up the ponds.
16
"I will lead the blind by a way they do not know,
In paths they do not know I will guide them.
I will make darkness into light before them
And rugged places into plains.
These are the things I will do,
And I will not leave them undone."
Certainly this passage from Isaiah says "I have kept silent" and "I have restrained myself" -- but in what sense has God done this? Is this an admission from God that He is avoiding all men and seeks to hide Himself from them and not participate in the world? Certainly not! God is here saying that He has kept silent and restrained Himself from punishing Israel for its infidelity. He has been silent and has restrained Himself against their inequities, but now He will "groan," "gasp," and "pant" (v. 14) to punish them with hardships (v.15) and to lead them into "rugged places" and leave no necessary deed undone (v.16).

To say this passage says God hides and always hides -- that simply reckless. This passage says that God turns aside His wrath for a while but will not forever avoid punishing wicked deeds.

Is 45:12
"It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I ordained all their host.
13
"I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward," says the LORD of hosts.
14 Thus says the LORD,
"The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush
And the Sabeans, men of stature,
Will come over to you and will be yours;
They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains
And will bow down to you;
They will make supplication to you:
'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else,
No other God.'"
15
Truly, You are a God who hides Himself,
O God of Israel, Savior!
16
They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them;
The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.
17
Israel has been saved by the LORD
With an everlasting salvation;
You will not be put to shame or humiliated
To all eternity.
18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
"I am the LORD, and there is none else.

It is the bold text, above, that you cite as sure proof that God "hides Himself", but here the prophet is not reporting that God is distance and unidentifiable: he is saying that God's counsel -- God's purpose and intention -- is above man's knowing. When Isaiah says in v. 15 that "You are a God who hides Himself," he is not saying "you are a God who is not here with us" because he is about to assert that Israel has been saved by the work of God -- saved when the other great nations (Egypt, Cush) have been (and will be) humilitaed by God. The prophet is saying that God rasies up nations and their fate is in His hands (v. 12), but the reason God does thsi is God's own reason and not one man influences or somehow reckons.

Is 54:6
"For the LORD has called you,
Like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit,
Even like a wife of one's youth when she is rejected,"
Says your God.
7
"For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
8
"In an outburst of anger
I hid My face from you for a moment,
But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you,"
Says the LORD your Redeemer.
9
"For this is like the days of Noah to Me,
When I swore that the waters of Noah
Would not flood the earth again;
So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you
Nor will I rebuke you.

And in your last citation, God has certainly not "hidden" himself so as to be recused from this creation He has made. In Is 42, the prophet said that God hid his wrath from Israel, but now pours it out; here, Isaiah says that God has "hidden his face" from Israel in a moment of anger -- but even this is only for a moment. In the first case, God hid His wrath; in this case, He has hidden His mercy in order to punish. He has not extracted Himself from the mortal plane or the from the sinful Earth but plays a central and critical roll.

I think you point, as exemplified by these passages is poorly made. I look forward to your response as it may teach all readers about your method of reading the Bible.

[mickiel]

Today @ 03:29 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=360660#post360660)
centuri0n:





Again, a diversion from my original point, but the followers of Christ were called "Christians" first in Antioch in the lifetime of the Apostles -- if we trust the NASB, Acts 11:26.

Calling the Bible "Christian Scriptures" is simply a way to distinguish it from (as two examples) The Quran or the Tanach and Torah without the NT. Why rail on about it?



If I called it the Black bible or the white bible or the Jewish bible or the Russian bible, in my view, these terms are just as inncorrect as a christian bible. Why rail on about it, because I have discovered that in conversations with christians, their dialog is full of "little things" I view as inncorrect, that they view as either truth or "nothing to rail about". If you let these things pile up, the conversation becomes more useless to me as it goes futher. So I take issue with each deception as I see it. As Acts 11 points out, they were called christians BY OTHER PEOPLE, NOT themselves. And that only after Antioch. It was first called the "way". The bible never calls itSELF christian. It calls itself the word of God, and christianity is not the word of God personified. They just think they are.








Great! You listed 4 passages in your original post -- the post to which I originally responded:
Is 42:7
Is 42:14
Is 45:15
Is 54:7

In context, we have Is 42:7 --


Now consider this -- you say v. 7 says "God is hidden". Yet that passage in the first place does not directly reference God, and it appears in the context that God is active and present in this current world. v.5 begins the section by describing God in 3 ways: Creator of the very heavens and Earth; Creator of the very living things on the Earth; and Sustainer of all life, both physical and spiritual. Moreover, Isaiah reports, "Thus says God". Not only is God present in an ontological way (that is to say, in a way necessary to the very being of all things), but He is active and present in that very world as evidenced by His action in speaking out in acts of special revelation.

That issue is not less obvious in v. 6 which begins "I have called you ... I will also hold You by the hand and watch over you". How can God, if not present, do any of these things?


I never said God was not present in the biblical days, because he was. I said God IS NOT present on earth today, and has not been since Christ. The bible is very plain in that only God knows when he will return. His Holy Spirit is here, but not he himself. Now christians, well most of them, think God and the Holy Spirit is the same, I disagree with that belief. The bible is very graphic as to describing Gods return to earth, it will be an awesome day to behold, read Revelations.





.


Certainly this passage from Isaiah says "I have kept silent" and "I have restrained myself" -- but in what sense has God done this? Is this an admission from God that He is avoiding all men and seeks to hide Himself from them and not participate in the world? Certainly not! God is here saying that He has kept silent and restrained Himself from punishing Israel for its infidelity. He has been silent and has restrained Himself against their inequities, but now He will "groan," "gasp," and "pant" (v. 14) to punish them with hardships (v.15) and to lead them into "rugged places" and leave no necessary deed undone (v.16).

To say this passage says God hides and always hides -- that simply reckless. This passage says that God turns aside His wrath for a while but will not forever avoid punishing wicked deeds.


It is not reckless, it is revealing, and it is plain. To show other scriptures on the subject, takes a more wider understanding, which I have not seen in christians. They are shallow , in my view. God does not change, but our understanding of him does. If you place something under a magnifying glass, that does not change what that something is, YOUR VIEW of it changes, your sight of it is improved. Spiritual wisdom is like this experience. Once you understand God, you understand that he is constant, it is we who are shallow. Gods thoughts are nothing like ours, Is. 55:8-11, that fact of reality will never change, ever. He keeps silent for very long periods of time, Is. 42:7- that fact of reality will never change, ever.

The highest heaven cannot contain God, 2 Chron. 6:18, this means God will be in and out of all realitys as he wills, not just earth. There will be times he just will not be around. But we will always be in his care, which is his presence. If God cares for something, it is always covered. And he does hide himself, Isaiah 54:7, 45:15, that will never change. What he does when he goes away, most of us will just never know. Because we do not need to know.









It is the bold text, above, that you cite as sure proof that God "hides Himself", but here the prophet is not reporting that God is distance and unidentifiable: he is saying that God's counsel -- God's purpose and intention -- is above man's knowing. When Isaiah says in v. 15 that "You are a God who hides Himself," he is not saying "you are a God who is not here with us" because he is about to assert that Israel has been saved by the work of God -- saved when the other great nations (Egypt, Cush) have been (and will be) humilitaed by God. The prophet is saying that God rasies up nations and their fate is in His hands (v. 12), but the reason God does thsi is God's own reason and not one man influences or somehow reckons.




I disagree totally here. The prophet was being exact in his description of Gods relation to humans, here it was Isreal. God hid himself from Isreal in many ways, most importantly he denied them his Holy Spirit. Only certain leaders were given the Holy Spirit of God in the entire old testement. No group was given it, God stayed hiddened to them all. And he is still this way even now. He has not changed in that reguard. There was no nation that God revealed himself as a whole back then, and there is none now. If you disagree with this fact of reality-- simply produce them.

And in your last citation, God has certainly not "hidden" himself so as to be recused from this creation He has made. In Is 42, the prophet said that God hid his wrath from Israel, but now pours it out; here, Isaiah says that God has "hidden his face" from Israel in a moment of anger -- but even this is only for a moment. In the first case, God hid His wrath; in this case, He has hidden His mercy in order to punish. He has not extracted Himself from the mortal plane or the from the sinful Earth but plays a central and critical roll.


Where God is, there is the spirit of harmony. Produce anywhere on earth there is a spirit of harmony. Jesus came to earth with a sword, not to bring everlasting human peace. The peace will be of Gods kingdom, only the seeds of that is here now, and not many of them. The bible calls them firstfruits, I have yet to meet any of them neither. God didnot extract himself FROM the mortal plane, he was never in it. The mortal plane cannot even be in Gods presence. No human can look at him and live. And satan must be filtered when he is allowed into Gods presence. No sin can even begin to get through Gods glory, must least his Holy Angels surrounding him.





I think you point, as exemplified by these passages is poorly made. I look forward to your response as it may teach all readers about your method of reading the Bible.




I seek to teach none here. The seduction of the christian mind must be removed before real truth can penertrate its deep deception. To even suggest that God comes to earth is pure unreason. God has many eyes and servants who carry out his will. He will not set his feet in corrouption. The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, but those eyes are Angels, not his. In my personal view, God doesn't even look at earth. God hates sin, and the earth is full of it. When he comes back, he will burn sin from the face of this planet, THEN he will step down on it.

[centuri0n]

If I called it the Black bible or the white bible or the Jewish bible or the Russian bible, in my view, these terms are just as inncorrect as a christian bible. Why rail on about it, because I have discovered that in conversations with christians, their dialog is full of "little things" I view as inncorrect, that they view as either truth or "nothing to rail about". If you let these things pile up, the conversation becomes more useless to me as it goes futher. So I take issue with each deception as I see it. As Acts 11 points out, they were called christians BY OTHER PEOPLE, NOT themselves. And that only after Antioch. It was first called the "way". The bible never calls itSELF christian. It calls itself the word of God, and christianity is not the word of God personified. They just think they are.


Well, again I ask you what this has to do with the topic at hand. Whether I can convince you or not that people who followed Christ have called themselves "Christian" a long time prior to 1901 AD, what has this to do with the issue of God being in hiding?


I never said God was not present in the biblical days, because he was. I said God IS NOT present on earth today, and has not been since Christ. The bible is very plain in that only God knows when he will return. His Holy Spirit is here, but not he himself. Now christians, well most of them, think God and the Holy Spirit is the same, I disagree with that belief. The bible is very graphic as to describing Gods return to earth, it will be an awesome day to behold, read Revelations.


What you did say was that this passage -- and the others that you provided as evidence which I reviewed here -- indicates that God hides. It does not indicate that at all, and neither do the other passages.

These are not texts I decided were the best case for my own affirmation: these were the texts you provided to support your assertion. To now change your tune and blanketly offer "read Revelations," (it's Revelation, btw: technically the Revelation of John) is a little random.

Your assertion was that God is hiding, and that this passage from Is 42 supports that. I have taken good time to examine that idea, and my examination has found your assertion unfounded. If your best response is, "well, God was certainly present in the Biblical days," you are conceding your first piece of evidence does not support your claim.

That's fine with me; we can consider Is 42:7 closed and resolved -- it says God is present.


It is not reckless, it is revealing, and it is plain.


In what way? What is plain is that this passage, when we read it as a complete statement and not as a single phrase lifted out of context, is that God is not hidden. Simply asserting the contrary is, well, contrary but not argumentation.


To show other scriptures on the subject, takes a more wider understanding, which I have not seen in christians. They are shallow , in my view.


Again: These are not texts I decided were the best case for my own affirmation: these were the texts you provided to support your assertion. To now change your tune and blanketly offer "christians (sic) are shallow," is a little random -- even more random than your previous response, which was "well, not this scripture but another scripture," because this response diverts from your particular argument to a faceless group that frankly you reject as a category.


God does not change, but our understanding of him does. If you place something under a magnifying glass, that does not change what that something is, YOUR VIEW of it changes, your sight of it is improved. Spiritual wisdom is like this experience. Once you understand God, you understand that he is constant, it is we who are shallow. Gods thoughts are nothing like ours, Is. 55:8-11, that fact of reality will never change, ever. He keeps silent for very long periods of time, Is. 42:7- that fact of reality will never change, ever.

The highest heaven cannot contain God, 2 Chron. 6:18, this means God will be in and out of all realitys as he wills, not just earth. There will be times he just will not be around. But we will always be in his care, which is his presence. If God cares for something, it is always covered. And he does hide himself, Isaiah 54:7, 45:15, that will never change. What he does when he goes away, most of us will just never know. Because we do not need to know.


This has nothing to do with Is 42:14! You offered Is 42:14 as evidence for your assertion, and here, in reviewing it, you have simply not addressed one word of the examination of that passage. You have ignored the examination and simply re-asserted you premise.

Why should one bother to move on to 2 Chr 6:18 or any other passage when you do not even confront the case made against your preliminary proof texts?


I disagree totally here. The prophet was being exact in his description of Gods relation to humans, here it was Israel. God hid himself from Isreal in many ways, most importantly he denied them his Holy Spirit. Only certain leaders were given the Holy Spirit of God in the entire old testement. No group was given it, God stayed hiddened to them all. And he is still this way even now. He has not changed in that reguard. There was no nation that God revealed himself as a whole back then, and there is none now. If you disagree with this fact of reality-- simply produce them.


Well, you could even say, "God didn't give them Ice cream or motor cars, so he must have hidden Himself," and it would have as much to do with Is 45:15 as what you say here. You do not touch a single word mentioned by the prophet to make this point: you only roll out your view and say It applies to this passage". There is no logical, textual, literal or metaphric reason to say what you say here -- and my first reason to say so is that you don't offer any. It is you case: it is up to you to support it.

I do not want to repeat myself to the point of stultification, but you offered this passage to evidence that God hides. The passage does not say that God hides -- which I have already demonstrated. You have addressed neither my examination nor the text itself.

If you'd like to discuss some other topic, we can tp that when this one is resolved. Until then, please try to at least support your own case.


Where God is, there is the spirit of harmony.


Chapter and verse, please.


Produce anywhere on earth there is a spirit of harmony.


I wonder how Jesus was crucified if "Where God is, there is the spirit of harmony." I wonder how the Israelites could slaughter their enemies, or how they could have had any enemies, if "Where God is, there is the spirit of harmony." I wonder how the battle of Armegeddon will happen at all if "Where God is, there is the spirit of harmony."

Maybe your premise is simply flawed.


Jesus came to earth with a sword, not to bring everlasting human peace.


You must be someone who rejects the deity of Christ, I guess. This is a contradictory statement to "Where God is, there is the spirit of harmony", if Jesus is God.


The peace will be of Gods kingdom, only the seeds of that is here now, and not many of them. The bible calls them firstfruits, I have yet to meet any of them neither. God didnot extract himself FROM the mortal plane, he was never in it. The mortal plane cannot even be in Gods presence. No human can look at him and live. And satan must be filtered when he is allowed into Gods presence. No sin can even begin to get through Gods glory, must least his Holy Angels surrounding him.


The last time you said this, you provided 4 passages of Scripture that allegedly proved this out: in examination, none of them did so. Why repeat something you have not yet supported?


I seek to teach none here. The seduction of the christian mind must be removed before real truth can penertrate its deep deception. To even suggest that God comes to earth is pure unreason. God has many eyes and servants who carry out his will. He will not set his feet in corrouption. The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, but those eyes are Angels, not his. In my personal view, God doesn't even look at earth. God hates sin, and the earth is full of it. When he comes back, he will burn sin from the face of this planet, THEN he will step down on it.


I suggest you compare the "humble" tone of this closing statement with your over-bolsterous warning at which I scoffed. You "seek to teach none"? How does that compare to you calling to me, "study these words well centurion (sic)". You are not seeking to teach, but you caution others to "study well" your words? I'd like to treat you like a serious person -- but that's a two-way street. Please try to respond in a serious way.

[mickiel]

[QUOTE]Yesterday @ 11:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361277#post361277)
centuri0n:


But I cannot give you my mind. You see as you see, the comments and scriptures I have already given are sufficent. I am not interested in changing your point of view. I will not argue in your format, only in my own.In Revelation 22:7, Jesus says he is comming quickly. He says this because he is simply not here, or he wouldnot have to come. In Zech. 14:4, a prophecy of God returning to earth is given, he will actually stand on it. This day has not come, because God has not. God does not come to earth outside of the time he has revealed he will. Its just that simple. However, I cannot explain this to your understanding, and as you have noticed, neither am I trying to.

God is alpha amd omega, he first made earth and visted it, he will lastly do it, there is no inbetween, except between your ears.

[mickiel]

It is described in Isaiah 40:17 and Dan. 4:35. The earth right now is meaningless to God and LESS than nothing. All the people on it are accounted as nothing, which is absolute zero. God is aware of our future, so our past and present is meaningless to him. Of course we don't feel this way ourselves, but its how God thinks that counts as a value.

This reality is hard for christians to accept because they think they are meaningful to God now. They believe now is the day of salvation, and they believe that they themselves have chosen that day to be so. This is self realization at its highest level, to actually believe they control salvation itself with their free will. This kind of thinking sees God differently. It is this thinking that created the eternal hell fire doctrine. They teach come to Jesus now. The bible teachs one can only be drawn to Jesus. Jesus said he will draw all men to him. This simply has not yet occured. This world is so plainly obvious of this truth that christianity cannot digest.

[centuri0n]

You simply have not addressed a single thing I've said.

Sorry to have bothered you.

[centuri0n]

Today @ 08:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362246#post362246)
mickiel:

[QUOTE]Yesterday @ 11:33 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=361277#post361277)
centuri0n:


But I cannot give you my mind. You see as you see, the comments and scriptures I have already given are sufficent. I am not interested in changing your point of view. I will not argue in your format, only in my own.In Revelation 22:7, Jesus says he is comming quickly. He says this because he is simply not here, or he wouldnot have to come. In Zech. 14:4, a prophecy of God returning to earth is given, he will actually stand on it. This day has not come, because God has not. God does not come to earth outside of the time he has revealed he will. Its just that simple. However, I cannot explain this to your understanding, and as you have noticed, neither am I trying to.

God is alpha amd omega, he first made earth and visted it, he will lastly do it, there is no inbetween, except between your ears.

If this is the method by which you have "encountered" other Christians, it is no wonder you have never been either understood nor understand.

Thanks again, and sorry to have used up your valuable time.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 11:13 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=362332#post362332)
centuri0n:



If this is the method by which you have "encountered" other Christians, it is no wonder you have never been either understood nor understand.

Thanks again, and sorry to have used up your valuable time.



Most of the time I engage christians, in my view, it is a complette waste of time. But there are exceptions, and I keep those private. When people want to really speak with you, they know how that is done. The progress occurs mostly there. But now Centurion, as you leave this conversation, which I am accoustomed too when dealing with most christians, I'll leave you with this. I know you will understand. Doctrines and theological differences are what seperates all religons of this world.

We are better at understanding grace and love and hope. But those things are not more powerful that the dissagreements. Now they should be, but they are not. Why? Because the grace and love and hope we have is not real, therefore they have no real staying power. But the disagreements are real, and they have staying power. They are what motivates us, what substains us, what dictates us. This is why I know that this world is not Gods, he is not here and neither is his pressence. This worlds is satans, he is the present god here. Many cannot accept this truth because its too hurtful. They would rather bask in their perceived pressence of God, stay in their religous dream world, than too wakeup. This is another reason christians do not speak with me for long. What fellowship has a sleeper with one who is awake?

I ask the questions of God that christians do not even dream of asking. I reject foolishness that christians teach children in sunday school. Its like holding on to santa claus. Its like trying to take a pacifier away from a baby. Instead of removing the dream, you just let them stay sleep. Instead of removing the pacifier, you just let them nurse themselves on nothing nutrcional. I do not expect to be understood by dreamers and babys. I often grow tired of the pain it causes to take away a pacifier, but when one is awoken, it makes it all worth it. You just never know when and where God will awaken.

So you join your brothers who ignore me and enjoy the sleep.

[ollie]

"No one can come to God on their own will, John 6:44."


John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How does the Father draw?

He calls.

1 Corinthians 1:9. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


How does God call?

2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


God calls with the gospel.

[mickiel]

Today @ 09:10 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=363041#post363041)
ollie:

"No one can come to God on their own will, John 6:44."


John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How does the Father draw?

He calls.

1 Corinthians 1:9. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


How does God call?

2 Thessalonians 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


God calls with the gospel.



God calls with his Holy Spirit, not the sermon men preach. Men can preach the truth, but one cannot receive the truth in a sermon, reading a book or any other way they are exposed to it, UNLESS they are GIVEN ears to hear, John 3:27. The gospel is meaningless to the listener unless GOD OPENS THEM, they cannot open themselves. The gospel is foolishness to the ear uninspired by God, and foolishlessness comming out of the preachers mouth , unless his mouth is inspired also. God-- God is the basics of understanding, not the gospel. God is the key, not the bible being preached.

In Acts 2, the giving of the Holy Spirit was the miricle, not the speaking in tounges. Each person was able to HEAR the other person, even though they were speaking in their own native lanquage, they understood each other. The miricle was in the HEARING, they could understand lanquages they didnot even speak. The spirit must first be given from above, THEN the person who it is given to can rightly devide or understand or receive the gospel being preached.

[jason]

06-13-2003 @ 06:50 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=122169#post122169)
mickiel:

Christians think faith is self generated, belief is self generated, so their view of God and salvation is self generated effort, or a self improvement search for God that is generated by a free willed self deceided choice.

Umm ... not to burst your bubble but going back at least as far as the 300's we have Augustine of Hippo holding to a strict Monergism that is the exact reverse of what you are claiming here (I would add that this teaching goes back to the words of Christ and the Apostles, but Augustine is the first to really spell it out).

So your claim is simply false that "christians believe". It is true some do, but there is a very strong monergistic tradition in christendom that modern Calvinists and Lutherans are heirs to at the very least.

I understand this misconception,

What I don't understand is why you have this misconception.

Christianity teaches against this, they teach WE must be good, we must first change ourselves, they teach self generated repentance, this is one reason so many of them think highly of themselves, they deserve salvation because of what THEY did, they fourced God out of hideing, and made him convert them, ...; or so they believe.
Don't know where you are getting any of this from, but you don't know what you are talking about when applying it to "christians" in a generic sense of the word.

Jason

[centuri0n]

Are you refering to my intellectual state or my ability to cope?

You think an awful lot of yourself for a person who isn't "trying to teach anybody". You have yet to answer that, or any, question posed to you (by me) in this thread, yet you have the chutzpah to chide me for leaving this exchange?

Sorry, friend: if you think you have challenged my view of God in any way, you do not understand the meaning of the word "challenge".

Good luck to you.

[mickiel]

Today @ 01:21 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=363619#post363619)
centuri0n:

Are you refering to my intellectual state or my ability to cope?

You think an awful lot of yourself for a person who isn't "trying to teach anybody". You have yet to answer that, or any, question posed to you (by me) in this thread, yet you have the chutzpah to chide me for leaving this exchange?

Sorry, friend: if you think you have challenged my view of God in any way, you do not understand the meaning of the word "challenge".

Good luck to you.






And I could careless how you interpit whatever you think I am doing in any conversation with you or anyone. I have answered every question, but you are blind to my answers, because they are so unknown to you, so you see nothing comming from me. I understand this reality. We speak different lanquages, thats basically it in a nutshell. I was referring to your ability to spiritually understand others. I do not insult your intellect, nor do I care about it. Your view of God is transparent, I see right through it. I see no value in it.

[mickiel]

Yesterday @ 10:11 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=363131#post363131)
jason:



Umm ... not to burst your bubble but going back at least as far as the 300's we have Augustine of Hippo holding to a strict Monergism that is the exact reverse of what you are claiming here (I would add that this teaching goes back to the words of Christ and the Apostles, but Augustine is the first to really spell it out).

So your claim is simply false that "christians believe". It is true some do, but there is a very strong monergistic tradition in christendom that modern Calvinists and Lutherans are heirs to at the very least.




You need to study christianity, or you are simply unaware of its realistic state of being and its root system. monergism is a minority influence on christianity, I consider Lutherism stronger in its effect. Lutherism is minute in its influence also, but its history began with a much lager influence that has since waned. Christianity is a melting pot of influences, thats what makes it a whore. It has laied in bed with all doctrines at one time or another, an unholy mixture. The resultsof this is posted every day on this board, no unifying doctrine exist in christianity.



What I don't understand is why you have this misconception.



Because I have eyes, and I exist in reality. The pied piper of deception has passed over me. Wisdom is knowing how it really is.



Don't know where you are getting any of this from, but you don't know what you are talking about when applying it to "christians" in a generic sense of the word.

Jason



When it comes to christians, their is no generic sense, only senselessness. I do not expect the spiritually unreasonable to understand spiritual reason, that is contridition. I believe God wanted the history of mankind spiritually confused, which they always have been. He called christianity to help build on this confusion. This is reality as it is. This is an exact description of mankinds history and its present state. And the scriptures back this up. When god blinds something from truth, it cannot see it. The scriptures that support this I assert, cannot be understood by christianity.

[GrayPilgrim]

Dude! Mickiel, can you say anything nice? Is it your goal in life to allienate everyone?

[Pilgrim]

Ole Mick can't even spell correctly or use proper english in his posts so don't let it get on your nerves too much centuriOn. The general sloppyness of his syntax and inability to put anything together in a cogent form should be an indication to you as to how little he really understands. And of course, since he is spiritually blind to the reality of Christ we should not expect him to understand all of this. It's only natural as Mick would say.

[centuri0n]

Given the sin-state of my own spelling, I wouldn't discredit him too much for that problem ...

Today @ 09:40 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=364251#post364251)
Pilgrim:

Ole Mick can't even spell correctly or use proper english in his posts so don't let it get on your nerves too much centuriOn. The general sloppyness of his syntax and inability to put anything together in a cogent form should be an indication to you as to how little he really understands. And of course, since he is spiritually blind to the reality of Christ we should not expect him to understand all of this. It's only natural as Mick would say.

However, I'll be glad to adopt a thicker skin in the future as I observe the latitude of the administators here at TWEB.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

[Pilgrim]

In general we try to let things go. If someone starts getting really nasty with inflamatory language then we'll step in. This stuff here, however, is more pedantic than it is mean.

But a thick skin is recommended, we're trying to promote a place where people can really speak their minds.

In regards to the spelling, you are right on there and I am the worst of them all. (Mainly because I type quickly with out checking before posting.) I only pointed it out in this case to try to bring the egos down a few notches.

Typically you can tell when something is a simple typo or if it is a sign of something worse.

In Mick's case these posts are the typical last resort of someone who knows they've been called out and have no answer. Some say the last resort is sacrcasm or ad hom attacks. Mick has taken it one step beyond. By simply dismissing folks as not capable of understanding you avoid all responsablity for your words.

Of course a person truly full of grace and understanding would make all efforts to help others understand. I mean come on, if you were the only one alive with the real truth, and you knew it beyond doubt, wouldn't you make every effort to show it to others so they could understand it as well?

[centuri0n]

... I'd bet that, like the prophet, God would show me that I wasn't the only one -- that I had puffed myself and that it is actually Hid faithfulness that matters.

But that's just me. I have applied another thick layer of rawhide and will continue unimpeded.

:)

[mickiel]

Today @ 09:55 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=364276#post364276)
centuri0n:

... I'd bet that, like the prophet, God would show me that I wasn't the only one -- that I had puffed myself and that it is actually Hid faithfulness that matters.

But that's just me. I have applied another thick layer of rawhide and will continue unimpeded.

:)




The things I am not: a prophet, a christian, the only one who claims to know truth, a good speller, a humble nice person, a person who knows God.


The things I am: a sinner, a confused person, one who hungers and thrist for righteousness( because I do not have righteousness) a man, growing in the wisdom of God, controlled by God, weird, arrogant, angry at traditional knowledge of God, very strong minded.

I offer my apoligies to any I have offended, in complette senserity. I tend to spell words as they sound to me. I am a janitor, only two years of University study, then I had enough of that learning, I only seek spiritual knowledge. Have NEVER CLAIMED exclusive knowledge of God but will seriously stand by what I believe is truth.

[jason]

Today @ 08:12 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=364148#post364148)
mickiel:

When it comes to christians, their is no generic sense, only senselessness. I do not expect the spiritually unreasonable to understand spiritual reason, that is contridition.

Mick,

Could you please use the wet squishy thing between your ears and make some sense.

As far as I can tell your entire reply had nothing at all to do with my post.

If it did then could you please translate it as I could not see the point of your reply.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I have fish who are better able communicate ideas than this (Although it is true to say the idea tha usually communicate is, "We are so happy to see you, Your putting food in the tank right ?".)

Jason

[mickiel]

Today @ 09:34 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=364244#post364244)
GrayPilgrim:

Dude! Mickiel, can you say anything nice? Is it your goal in life to allienate everyone?




I am able to be nice when I discern it calls for it. My allienation was predetermined by powers not of my choice or control. I am no fool. Who wants to be allienated? Thats one reason I doubt that homosexuality is just all choice, who wants allienation? Don't misunderstand, I am not homosexual, but I cannot accept that people allienate by choice out of a rational mind. What we are seeing here is a conflict of intrest. I am interested in the total rehabilitation of all mankind--- because I see God as interested in the same. I confront those who see God differently. Those here see God as interested in the small minute rehabilitation of those who survive his created obstical course called the survival of the human fittest. I reject such view of God, that rejection pesters the traditional mind of limited atonement believers.

[mickiel]

Today @ 11:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=364356#post364356)
jason:



Mick,

Could you please use the wet squishy thing between your ears and make some sense.

As far as I can tell your entire reply had nothing at all to do with my post.

If it did then could you please translate it as I could not see the point of your reply.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I have fish who are better able communicate ideas than this (Although it is true to say the idea tha usually communicate is, "We are so happy to see you, Your putting food in the tank right ?".)

Jason



I understand bluntness. We just have no fellowship of the mind. Our learning is complettly different, far from each other. I have understood all you have said, you, none I have said. Suffice it to say that your view is the majority here, your lanquage understood. I am unable to bridge the gap between me and traditional views, least I would. You see apples, I oranges. I mean no offense, but such is reality.

The will of man was created and constructed by God. I reject any teaching that suggest that God has created something that he does not complettely control. God created choice, but not in salvation or our eternal future, only in areas that do not concern him, such as what candy bar we choose to buy today. Our salvation is a free predetermined inheritance that was sealed before any of us were born.

God created every membrain that helps us think and reason and decide, he is the master of all those intriquet nuances. Nothing is outside of his will, including our limited free thinking we think we own. God possesses all he creates, and totally influences all things. He is the master of all mankinds leaders, kings, governments, from the most important of us to the least of us, God rules supreme. Nothing that lives shares power with God, or is outside of his influence. Nothing has happened that God didnot want to happen, including the world trade center bombings. No world war happened against Gods will.

No human mind can reason without him. None of us can independantly decide anything outside of Gods will. Such are the stuffings of truth that men cannot see.

[centuri0n]

I agree with you that God is utterly in control. I would in fact go farther than you as say that God does in fact even control which candy bar we choose to eat.

The part that I disagree with is that God is hidden. It is a very strange path that you are taking here. You offered 4 scriptures, and I addressed all 4 for them on the topic of God's hiddenness.

We do not disagree on God's Sovereignty. We disagree on whether He hides. Not one of your first 4 verses said that God hides: when you can in any way deal with that issue without simply saying, "well, you're blind" -- that is to say, when you can do what you said you would do and use the NASB as we receive it to prove out your point rather than pontificate about your superiority to "Christians" -- you will be a credible person.

[centuri0n]

... credibility is the key.

Good luck to you.

[lostseptember]

Mickiel and Centuriun,
Thank you for your responses. I've been away from Tweb for some time and I'm surprised this thread has progressed at all!
I asked the original question last spring, because I'm troubled by the degree of harshness with which we Christians treat each other when we disagree on questions about God. I wondered why God can't be more clear about who God is and who we are supposed to be. What I've learned on Tweb is that there is plenty of convincing and worthy evidence for any position we care to take! If that tells me anything about God, I think it is that God must be much bigger that I thought and in some way encompasses multiple positions at the same time without contradiction. Maybe God isn't hiding after all, maybe if we keep comparing the individual glimpses we've each received of God we'll gain a clearer picture of the whole. At least, I hope so.