Question for Roman Catholics?

[Ric]

What are the 13 levels of purgatory? :shrug:

[spl_cadet]

They are as follows:
Ghigb
WEtgdf
Ohntergf
uohxcvj
5wetsduhtgf
rdhgfdgds
97hgcbv5rj,
re0gdfhotf
oijkl
ewads
oiujh
terfg
uyhgfv

Obviously you need to know the secret Vatican Code to know the names :)

And Ric, there is no Church teaching about levels or any such. As far as I can tell, Danet started that.

[Ric]

Hey spl,
I know you answer this on the other board (www.carm.org), but I'm just putting this out everywhere to see what comes up. :smile"

This was given to me that made me ask this question:

I MET A SOUL FROM PURGATORY (By R.E.T.)


It was Monday, the day before Christmas Eve, 1996. I was sitting at my office desk going over some sales reports when I realized that I needed to go to confession. It had been over a month and so I began to make an exam of conscience. I wondered why I put off going to confession so long because it only makes it more difficult. I wrote down a list of my sins and went over them a few times so as not to forget anything in the confessional.

I drove to a nearby Catholic Church which was having confessions. I parked my car in the lot, went inside and was surprised to see that there were only about 25 people who were waiting for the priests to come. I sat in the back and began to make an Act of Contrition when all of a sudden a man, perhaps in hi seventies, sitting across the aisle began to cry very loudly. I thought something tragic must have happened for him to cry so hard. I and I’m sure the other people in church said a prayer for him. Then with his head bowed he cried quietly but steadily.

The priests came into the church and I went in line. There wasn’t time to review my list again so I took it inside the confessional with me because I didn’t want to miss anything. After confession I made another Act of Contrition, said my penance, and made a firm purpose of amendment. I thanked God for His forgiveness, knelt down before the Blessed Sacrament in the tabernacle and began to make my exit when I noticed the man who was crying was wailing out ahead of me. I blessed myself at the font and went to the door which he was still holding open as if waiting for me. When we were outside I asked him if he was alright, and he said he was fine. I asked him his name and he said: “John.” John walked very slowly as though not in a hurry. I asked him whether he lived nearby. He paused before answering and then said: “No, I came up from purgatory.” I stopped walking for a moment and looked at him. He looked just like any other person. Then I said: “Well, how come you’re up here on earth going to church. He paused and then said: “Our good God permits us to come and visit Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament of the Alter. With our guardian angels we also come to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When you go to Mass and there are some vacant places --- those places are filled with souls from purgatory and our angles hover above us just like yours and the church is packed for the greater honor and glory of God.”

“Why were you crying in church?” “Those were tears of joy and sorrow. Joy to be able to honor Him in the Blessed Sacrament and sorry for my having offended such a good and loving god.”

“Do you suffer much?” “Yes, but I’m glad to atone for my sins and I look forward to the time when I’ll be with God in Heaven. My guardian angel is helping me to answer your questions. In purgatory we can no longer pray for ourselves; instead, we pray for our family members and for all the church militant on earth.”

“What is purgatory like?” I asked. He answered: “There are thirteen levels in purgatory. The thirteenth is the lowest and located next to hell down in the center of the earth. It’s called the Chamber of Justice. The lower levels of purgatory are very difficult and souls can be in these lower levels for years before they advance to the middle levels. In the middle levels souls atone for specific sins of commission or omission and they suffer a lot but not as greatly as in the lower levels. I’ve been in purgatory for fifteen years and am looking forward to going up to the fifth level because the Blessed Virgin Mary visits the souls in the top five levels. When She comes, all suffering stops while Our Holy Mother and Queen is present. In the top-level souls no longer suffer, they pray and wait until they are taken to heaven. In the fourth level Jesus asks some souls if they wish to say in the fourth level in order to save their family members on earth. Then, when sufficient suffering and prayers are done, they go directly to heaven without going through the top three levels.”

“When in sorrow you confess your sins, God forgives you, but there is a stain or residue on the soul which must be cleansed by prayer, fasting, penance and sacrifice. It is much easier to do these things on earth. In purgatory it takes many years to cleanse. I was a businessman on earth just like you are. But my business became an obsession with me. I neglected my faith and prayer and if it were not for the Mercy of God and the prayers, sacrifices and Masses offered for me by a pious lady, my housekeeper, I would have been lost forever. When I died she then had Gregorian Masses said as well as arranged a funeral Mass for me. I was present at my funeral mass. Yes, God permits the souls to be present at their own funeral and at other family gatherings also. God is so good! Sad to say, but today many children do not even have a funeral mass for their parents or elders. They deprive them of a great grace and consolation.”

“In purgatory, your soul is a spirit that resembles your body, arms, legs and all. You can see, smell, and feel heat, cold and pain more acutely than if you had a body.”

John went on to say: “My guardian angel says to tell you that when a person dies and stands before Jesus, the soul clearly knows the sins and unatoned sins they committed against God, other people and themselves. At this time of immediate judgment Jesus takes into account all the good you have done and all the prayers and Masses that are being said for you. And you know exactly to what level you must go to in purgatory.”

John said: “The people who are incapacitated and say they want to die in dignity by taking their own lives or having someone help them to die are so sadly mistaken. There is no dignity in suicide or murder. Almighty God is the Creator of life and He determines when a life shall end. The person who ends his or her life will have to suffer a great deal for that. If they accepted their condition and pain and offered it to God in atonement, they could shorten their time in purgatory a great deal because suffering in the right way purifies one’s soul.”

“My angel says to tell you that since we come to your churches, we see what’s going on. People should dress modestly in the presence of Jesus. The church is the house of God, a place of prayer and great reverence should be shown to God. People should not talk or socialize in church. That should be done afterward, outside the church proper. Confession and atonement must be made for immodesty and irreverence in church. Those women who cover their heads in the presence of the Lord will be rewarded for it.”

We walked a few blocks and came to the entrance of a Catholic cemetery. John said: “This experience, this grace was given to you by God for more than one reason; one of the reasons is the holy water and the chaplet.” He then entered the cemetery and disappeared before my eyes. I said: ‘I’ll pray for you. John!”

I walked back to the church, went inside and thanked God for what just happened. I prayed the rosary in thanksgiving to God and for the soul of John.

When I was a little boy, my mother would take me with her to the cemetery. She always took a container of holy water. She would go to the grave of a relative or friend, say an Our Father, Hail Mary and Eternal rest and sprinkle holy water over the grave. She told me that the souls in purgatory receive much relief from this. My mother also did (something similar to) this every night at home for the souls in purgatory especially for those dear to her. Years later, in memory of my deceased mother, I took up the practice daily and I also prayed the Chaplet for the Holy Souls in Purgatory.

After this amazing experience, I made an appointment with a priest and made a general confession to make sure that all the sins of my life were confessed and forgiven. Then I began to go to confession every week or no longer than two weeks. I went to visit Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and I began to offer up all my work, aches and pains, irritations, annoyances, frustrations, even my driving, to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, with and through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, to God our Father in reparation as my purgatorial suffering.

And if this is just an devotional, remember truth must be in any devotional.

[themuzicman]

As long as we're on the subject of purgatory, where in the bible does it say that the wages of sin for the Christian is purgatory?

Seems to me that Paul said that there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Michael

[Ric]

Today @ 11:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=124422#post124422)
themuzicman:

As long as we're on the subject of purgatory, where in the bible does it say that the wages of sin for the Christian is purgatory?

Seems to me that Paul said that there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Michael

Right you are my friend! :thumb:

[spl_cadet]

06-16-2003 @ 08:05 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=124422#post124422)
themuzicman:

As long as we're on the subject of purgatory, where in the bible does it say that the wages of sin for the Christian is purgatory?

Seems to me that Paul said that there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Michael

There's a difference in how Catholics view sin and how Protestants do. We hold that there are two effects to sin. The first is shared with Protestants, the moving away from God. The second is the temporal effect of sin, which is removed in purgatory. A good explanation from a friend of mine (it's on the subject of penance but works here):
A little boy throws a ball through his neighbor's window. His mother repeatedly told him not to play ball in this location because she was concerned that a ball might go through the neighbor's window. The boy is faced with a dilemma; run and hide and deny or tell the truth and face the consequences. He decides to face the consequences and tell the truth. He goes to the neighbor and confesses. The neighbor is understanding and forgives the little boy for what happened. This act of forgiveness did not fix the window - it is still broken. Some "reparation' needs to be done. (this is also a good thing for indulgences as well). The boy's "pennance" could be do to yard work for the neighbor to make up for breaking the window. Refardless, some "reparation" needs to be done.

[Bill the Cat]

I thought that's what the blood did, washed away all of the signs of guilt...:huh:


Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
and

Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


There is no interim. We go to God with filthy rags and He immediately exchanges them for pure robes:


Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
Zec 3:4 He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes."

[spl_cadet]

"He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).

"In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45)

"nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).

[Bill the Cat]

Today @ 02:44 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=127953#post127953)
spl_cadet:

"He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).

"In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45)

"nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).


1Co 3:5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
1Co 3:7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Paul is referring to the teachings of others in our life being tested. This has nothing to do with purgatory.


This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (2 Macc 12:42) and sacrifices (2 Macc 12:43) for the dead are efficacious. The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Macc 7:9, 14, 23, 36). That is, he believed that expiation could be made for certain sins of otherwise good men-soldiers who had given their lives for God's cause. Thus, they could share in the resurrection. His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
Footnotes NAB study Bible


Not the same as purgatory.


Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


This is after the resurrection and the judgement, so nothing unholy will be there.. But see here:


Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."


Satan is before the Lord, not on Earth, because that's where Satan came from but in Heaven.

[Belteshazzar]

What are the 13 levels of purgatory? :shrug:

Church doctrine does not establish the various levels of purgatory, only its existence. The levels or degrees of purgatory are open to interpretation. Therefore, your question is flawed and appears to be baited. I suppose I could post a similarly baited question in the form of:

Question for Protestants?

Whats the name of the UFO behind the Hale-Bopp comet?

Except for the Heaven's Gate rapturists, not all Protestants believe there was a UFO behind the Hale-Bopp comet.
Jerry

[Bill the Cat]

06-21-2003 @ 02:04 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=129555#post129555)
Belteshazzar:



Question for Protestants?

Whats the name of the UFO behind the Hale-Bopp comet?

Except for the Heaven's Gate rapturists, not all Protestants believe there was a UFO behind the Hale-Bopp comet.
Jerry

Ah, but you assume that these rapturists were protestants, and not some wacko cult following of a single guy. Be careful who you group together.

[themuzicman]

At least they're admitting that the doctrine of purgatory is on the same level has the UFO trailing the Hale-Bopp comet. :hrm:

Michael

[Belteshazzar]

Bill the Cat:

Ah, but you assume that these rapturists were protestants, and not some wacko cult following of a single guy. Be careful who you group together.

Bill The Cat: (Nice name!)

It was really a rhetorical question. The Heaven's Gate wacko was indeed a Protestant rapturist gone crazy, or stopped taking his meds, or something. My point was, that I can't logically draw any conclusions about Protestantism, as a whole, by looking at the wacko actions of some of their individuals. The same goes for wacko Catholic Bishops that run over people and leave the scene of an accident, or child molestors, or Jim Jones, or David Koresh. They're wackos, lock 'em up, but don't claim any institutional generalizations from them.

Jerry

[Bill the Cat]

Agreed. :thumb:

[Ric]

Yesterday @ 08:53 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=130622#post130622)
Bill the Cat:



Ah, but you assume that these rapturists were protestants, and not some wacko cult following of a single guy. Be careful who you group together.

Right On!

[Rushing Jaws]

As long as we're on the subject of purgatory, where in the bible does it say that the wages of sin for the Christian is purgatory?

Seems to me that Paul said that there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Michael
## "The wages of sin", as surely you know :smile: "is death". Not purgatory. In the long run, the second death - if sin is unrepented.

Purgatory does not punish sin - it cleans out the roots of sin.

That reference to St. Paul is of course true - but not immediately relevant. It is sin that is punished, in Hell.

One of the best descriptions of what purgatory is "all about" that I know of, was written by Dorothy Sayers (who was an Anglican) in the Introduction to her translation of Dante's "Purgatorio". ##

[Rushing Jaws]

As long as we're on the subject of purgatory, where in the bible does it say that the wages of sin for the Christian is purgatory?

Seems to me that Paul said that there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Michael## There isn't - purgation is for the redeemed - not for the damned. Those in purgatory are not condemned. They are saved already. The Father loves them; they too love Him, in His Son. All who are "in Purgatory", are in Christ.

Hell is the reward of those who die in unrepented sin - that is, who have died outside the friendship of God, which we can have through the Mediator Jesus Christ, Who bestows His Spirit upon us, Whom the Father has given us.

Certainly death is the wage for sin. The dogma of Purgatory is no denial of this.

The crucial difference between Purgatory and Hell is, that Hell punishes sinners: they have to endure forever the fruits of the evil they chosen - which is simply sin, without illusion or dilution. They, like the Blessed in Heaven, "know as they are known" - but they have chosen to know God's Holiness as Wrath, not as Love. So they get what they asked for. For sin has consequences - just like anything else. They are outside Christ, but they still have to bear their sin - but without His help. They refuse to be helped.

Purgatory, burns away the roots of the sinful attitudes that biassed the Christian to sin. All the evil in us is to be purged, thoroughly, unrelentingly, completely, unreservedly. Nothing is to come between those who died "in the Lord", and the Glory laid up for them. Not even the tendencies that bias us to love self in place of God. All our selfishness will be utterly destroyed; no longer will it be latent in us, as on earth. Then we will be able to see God "face to face" - forever. And this cannot possibly be, except through and in Christ.

Purgatory simply gets rid of all the filth, the rust, the spiritual coarsening, in those who die in Christ: all the pollution contracted on earth from habits of sin. It is for sinfulness - not for sins.

God loves us far too much, to condemn us to see Him while we are not purged of all evil. Only if we are fully remade according to the likeness of Christ, Who is utterly sinless, can we endure to see God face to face. The Father loves us - so of course we are not condemned.

There is a Purgatory for us, because God loves us. Moses could not see God's face - it would have destroyed him. He would have been unable to endure such happiness, because he was not free of sinfulness. So with us - we sin too, even though we have been cleansed by the blood of Christ, we are still capable of rolling in the filth again. Even though we do not always go the full way into loathing God. But the slightest of sins is still worse than anything - the Puritans knew that.

As to what Purgatory is - one certain thing is, that it purifies us completely. It's not eternal, obviously, so it cannot be Hell; whether it is a place or a state or what, we don't know. ##

[scholasticus]

Hey Rushing Jaws,

That's a beautiful, calm exposition of a most comforting and righteous doctrine... but why have you got a girl in a fishing hat as your avatar?!

Another point to remember is that actually, it's entirely possible to pray "give me my purgatory here on earth" and prepare ourselves for heaven while we live out our daily lives! Hence the doctrine and practise of canonising saints. Just because someone isn't canonised, however, doesn't mean they didn't live a hidden life of holiness and *self-purification* through prayer and self-denial (as St. John urges us to do in his *inspired* letters - read 'em!). I think it's safe to say that the Catholic (and Orthodox?) Church acknowledges a great host of "anonymous saints" who simply laid down their lives for others and for Christ and never made it into history... but did make it straight into heaven, and now pray and thank God on our behalf!

It's the feast of All Souls tomorrow, celebrating the great numbers of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are in bliss right now, waiting to finally see God face to face. May their prayers help us who struggle here below.

It's important to note that there is a difference between the official beliefs of the Church and strange, anachronistic hangovers from a Mediaeval culture... thankfully we have the new Catechism as an important guidepost to what is essentially Catholic, and I don't remember reading about the "13 Levels" in there at all!

Peace

Keir

[jonfan]

What are the 13 levels of purgatory? :shrug:


The section on purgatory in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is only three paragraphs long (CCC 1030-1032). In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living. Among the things the Church does not insist on are the ideas that purgatory is a place or that it takes time.

Thank you for your question.
God Bless,
Jon

[Jeannot]

Dante has seven levels to Mount Purgatory in the Purgatorio. Thus the title of Thomas Merton's autobiography, THE SEVEN-STORY MOUNTAIN.

[elysian]

Dante's writings are not to be confused with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. :sigh:

Not all Catholics agree on Purgatory, what or where it is or what it entails, but the gist of it is that it is the process in which we are fully conformed and transformed to God's will. Most Protestants should agree that from the moment we are called to follow Jesus, He begins transforming and refining us, sanctifying us and making us more like Him.

My view (and yes, I am heavily influenced by that "heretic" Luther :ahem: ) is that we undergo Purgatory in this lifetime in the trials we face and in picking up our own cross as we follow Jesus here on this earth. I believe as the apostle Paul tells us that this is a mystery- the trumpet shall sound, the dead will be raised and we will be given new, incorruptible bodies at the End of Days. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=51&end_verse=53&version=31&context=context)

And as someone said earlier, Dante proposed seven levels of Purgatory (as well as seven circles of Hell.) The Inferno is one of my fave classics, but it's fiction, and more of Dante's theology in the book comes from imagination and folklore rather than specifically from the RCC of his day. In other words, if you want theological instruction go to the Bible, but be careful reading Dante. :tongue:

[Jeannot]

Dante's writings are not to be confused with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. :sigh:

Not all Catholics agree on Purgatory, what or where it is or what it entails, but the gist of it is that it is the process in which we are fully conformed and transformed to God's will. Most Protestants should agree that from the moment we are called to follow Jesus, He begins transforming and refining us, sanctifying us and making us more like Him.

My view (and yes, I am heavily influenced by that "heretic" Luther :ahem: ) is that we undergo Purgatory in this lifetime in the trials we face and in picking up our own cross as we follow Jesus here on this earth. I believe as the apostle Paul tells us that this is a mystery- the trumpet shall sound, the dead will be raised and we will be given new, incorruptible bodies at the End of Days. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&verse=51&end_verse=53&version=31&context=context)

And as someone said earlier, Dante proposed seven levels of Purgatory (as well as seven circles of Hell.) The Inferno is one of my fave classics, but it's fiction, and more of Dante's theology in the book comes from imagination and folklore rather than specifically from the RCC of his day. In other words, if you want theological instruction go to the Bible, but be careful reading Dante. :tongue:
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Dante was or is doctrinal--but evidently I did. Yes, Dante's depiction of Purgatory is an imaginative construct for the purposes of art, as are his depictions of Heaven and Hell.

And as I said earlier, this life is more like Purgatory than it is like Heaven or Hell.

[LindaK]

Dante's Divine Comedy is an excellent read and I highly recommend it. I make no comment with regard to its correlation to or with the Catholic Church.

Purgatory might be a place where one might go for a period of time or for eternity. It is a place that is not definite.

If one believes in heaven and hell upon death of one's physical person and those are the only two choices, then those who would otherwise believe there is a purgatory are likely to call it heaven (perhaps a lower heaven) because it is perhaps not a place of torture and spiritual death, but rather of a final chance for reconciliation before communion with the ultimate light.

If one believes that there is more than black or white...then perhaps there is room for a purgatory for them.

[Jeannot]

Dante's Divine Comedy is an excellent read and I highly recommend it. I make no comment with regard to its correlation to or with the Catholic Church.

Purgatory might be a place where one might go for a period of time or for eternity. It is a place that is not definite.

If one believes in heaven and hell upon death of one's physical person and those are the only two choices, then those who would otherwise believe there is a purgatory are likely to call it heaven (perhaps a lower heaven) because it is perhaps not a place of torture and spiritual death, but rather of a final chance for reconciliation before communion with the ultimate light.

If one believes that there is more than black or white...then perhaps there is room for a purgatory for them.
I'd like to think so, since none of us is all black or all white.

--Dirty Gray

[TDLefty]

I have nothing to add to this tread, but wanted to thank you all for giving me much to ponder.
I've noticed there are a lot of very knowledgeable people here, and a few who just think they know it all! Since I'm not too knowledgeable I suppose I must be one of the latter. But I'm learning in spite of my affliction.
TDLefty

[David Kaiser]

Dante's Divine Comedy is an excellent read and I highly recommend it. I make no comment with regard to its correlation to or with the Catholic Church.

Purgatory might be a place where one might go for a period of time or for eternity. It is a place that is not definite.

If one believes in heaven and hell upon death of one's physical person and those are the only two choices, then those who would otherwise believe there is a purgatory are likely to call it heaven (perhaps a lower heaven) because it is perhaps not a place of torture and spiritual death, but rather of a final chance for reconciliation before communion with the ultimate light.

If one believes that there is more than black or white...then perhaps there is room for a purgatory for them.

Speaking of Purgatory, I just wonder if the TV series "Lost" is a dramatic depiction of Purgatory. All those people surviving the crash (highly improbable) and dealing with their personal issues on this strange island, where cripples are healed. I would not be surprised if by the end of the series we found out that they were in purgatory and in the process of getting their lives together, before they are allowed in heaven. We will see. If some never get their lives together, will they go to hell?

[adopted heir]

Speaking of Purgatory, I just wonder if the TV series "Lost" is a dramatic depiction of Purgatory. All those people surviving the crash (highly improbable) and dealing with their personal issues on this strange island, where cripples are healed. I would not be surprised if by the end of the series we found out that they were in purgatory and in the process of getting their lives together, before they are allowed in heaven. We will see. If some never get their lives together, will they go to hell?
No. If you make it to Purgatory, that means you're on your way to Heaven, barred out of Hell. I've read Purgatory described as an anteroom of Heaven as opposed to a kind of middle ground between the two. You're already in the house of heaven, but not in the main. My understanding is that since all three are removed from time, you have an indefinite amount of time to get it right. And besides that, seeing as you're on your way to heaven, you want to be cleaned.

Interesting hypothesis on "Lost." Now I wish I had more than two channels and could watch it! (We get Fox and TBN--yeggghh. There's a podunk town for ya, though.)

[CounterReformer]

What are the 13 levels of purgatory? :shrug:
Confusion with Dante's picture of the seven mountains in Purgatory. The whole point of the Purgatorio is to contrast the virtuoisity of those being cleasened by God in Purgatory with the reprobate residing in the Seven circles of Hell, there are also seven heavens in the Paridisio making the contrast even more pointedly suscinct.

[Jeannot]

Confusion with Dante's picture of the seven mountains in Purgatory. The whole point of the Purgatorio is to contrast the virtuoisity of those being cleasened by God in Purgatory with the reprobate residing in the Seven circles of Hell, there are also seven heavens in the Paridisio making the contrast even more pointedly suscinct.
Thomas Merton's autobiography is called THE SEVEN-STOREY MOUNTAIN--title taken from Dante's Purgatorio.

[Ric]

What are the 13 levels of purgatory? :shrug:

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary-store/Components/596/59624_2.jpg

[CounterReformer]

http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary-store/Components/596/59624_2.jpg
Actually, it looks to me like a pcture of Hell. The biggest clue is that that all the levels are underneath Jerusalem. There was speculation in the middle ages that Hell was not only a real place but an earthly place located underneath the Holy City of Jerusalem.

Infact there seems to be connected dots throughout the the paiting running from the top to the bottom. This suggests that this is artwork of the Inferno by Dante giving us a visual aid as to where Dante went.

In fact it's a dead giveway that this is artwork of the Inferno because of the fact that near the center it has a three faced figure with the word lucifer right next to it. Obviously this isn't purgatory.

[joshuadrox]

What are the 13 levels of purgatory? :shrug:

Why '13' ... what's the deal with that number ?

[Ric]

Why '13' ... what's the deal with that number ?
I don't know. As you see I posted the original post back on June 16th 2003. I remember hearing something about that on the radio - but that was then.

[Jeannot]

The theory behind the doctrine of Purgatory is that NO ONE dies good enough to see God. Thus, there has to be a cleansing or preparation.

Luther believed that our sins are "covered" by conversion or regeneration. But if they're only covered, they're still there in some form. Christ's imputed righteousness does not take away personal guilt, but only means that the way to Heaven is opened. For Catholics, this way goes through life and purgatory. And it may be possible to say that Purgatory begins on earth.

[joshuadrox]

I don't know. As you see I posted the original post back on June 16th 2003. I remember hearing something about that on the radio - but that was then.

Oops, I see that now. I'll watch for dates now. Glad you still replied!

[Essence]

I've been a devout Roman CATHOLIC all of my life and even with all my years of holy catechism eduction, I don't even know what the 13 levels of purgatory are...didn't even know there were more than 4.

[adopted heir]

I've been a devout Roman CATHOLIC all of my life and even with all my years of holy catechism eduction, I don't even know what the 13 levels of purgatory are...didn't even know there were more than 4.


i think essentially that's something no one can know, at least not on this side of it. i think all guesses as to number of levels or even if there are levels is purely philosophical conjecture.

[David Kaiser]

I've been a devout Roman CATHOLIC all of my life and even with all my years of holy catechism eduction, I don't even know what the 13 levels of purgatory are...didn't even know there were more than 4.

The theology of purgatory is a doctrine that developed in the RCC in mideavel times. Orginally the early church had a slightly different view of the intermediate state (the time between death and the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return. I think Hippolytus does a great job of summarizing the early church's belief on the subject of the intermediate state. Other early church fathers also comment on what happens after death, some the details defer but in the general principles, they all agree. Hippolytus does the most comprehensive job of giving the ancient tradition I think is handed down from the apostles:

"Now we must speak of Hades, in which souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which thelight of theworld does not shine in this place, there is necessaily perpetual darkness there. this place has been destined to be, as it were, a guardhouse for souls (see ancient Hebrew belief in sheol ). The angels are stationed there as guards distributing temporary punishments for characters, according to each one's deeds. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast... (no one is in gehenna fire of the lake of fire yet until the final judgment) But the righteous ( who will obtain the incorruptible and unfading kingdom) are indeed presently detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one decent , at the gate of which we believe an archangel is stationed with an army. And when those who are conducted by the angels who are appointed unto the souls have passed this gate, they do not all proceed down one and the same path. Rather, the righteous are conducted into the light toward the right. And being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, they are brought to a locality full of light. And there all the righteous persons from the beginning dwell... IN that locale there are neither fierce heat, cold, nor thorns. But the faces of the fathers and the righteous are seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven that follow this location ( the advent of Christ's return). And we call this place by the name of "Abraham's bosom." However the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment. these souls no longer go of their own accord. Rather, they are dragged as prisoners by force. And the angels appointed over them hurry them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower level of Hades. And when the souls are brought there, those appointed to that task drag them on to the vicinity of Gehanna. And those who are so brought near hear the incessant agitation, and the feel the heat of it. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectatcle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, living in foreboding of that judgment (remember these are disembodied souls, so they can not experience torment of the senses or have a sense of time passing, it is a spiritual and soulish torment of forboding of what is ahead). And again, when they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they also suffer punishment merely seeing what they do not have of the bliss of paradise. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst (of Hades),so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to cross it, nor do any of the unrighteous dare to cross it. I think I have said enough on the subject of Hades, in which ALL souls are detained until the time that God has determined (for the final judgment). And then He will accomplish a resurrection of all... by the raising of the bodies of all. " (Hippolytus, AnteNicene Fathers volume 5, page 222.) (italized comments are mine.)

Once we understand the tradition of the Fathers about Hades, the parable of Jesus about the Rich Man and Lazarus begins to make sense. What Jesus is describing here is not a heaven and hell situation, but the state of souls in the intermediate state between death and the return of Jesus in trumph. I do not see any place for a purgatory for the righteous, just for the unrighteous in the dark side of Hades. It is interesting that this is before the final judgment. Could it be that those on the dark side of Hades, could have a second chance to come to their senses, before the final judgment? I see it already happening in the case of the Rich Man in Jesus' parable. While he did not repent in the parable, we see a real change in attitude on his part. Given this time of questioning and examination in his life, when the time of final judgment comes before the throne of God, would he repent? It is a possiblity. I think this is line with the mercies of God to suppose it. It makes a lot more sense to me than the belief that once we die, we go to heaven or hell and that is it.

I really think the RCC doctrine of purgatory obscures the traditional teaching of the church fathers and is one of the reasons, I could not become RC. However, I notice the Orthodox Church keeps to the older tradition, so I am seriously looking at that faith.

[Soundsurfr]

At least they're admitting that the doctrine of purgatory is on the same level has the UFO trailing the Hale-Bopp comet. :hrm:

Michael

Yeah. Now if we could only get them to admit that all of their doctrine is on the same level as the UFO trailing the Hale-Bopp comet, we'll have made some progress.

:wink:

[Eleazar7]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

If faith is what saves you in the first place I do not see why purgatory would exist. If works are not enough to save you in the first place why would working off your sins in purgatory be required to gain your final entrance into heaven?
If you are saved why would God put off your salvation?

Just a few questions I have a about Catholicism. I have many more. I do not mean to sound agressive. I just don't understand where these beliefs are coming from.

Your brother in Christ,
Eleazar

[adopted heir]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

If faith is what saves you in the first place I do not see why purgatory would exist. If works are not enough to save you in the first place why would working off your sins in purgatory be required to gain your final entrance into heaven?
If you are saved why would God put off your salvation?

Just a few questions I have a about Catholicism. I have many more. I do not mean to sound agressive. I just don't understand where these beliefs are coming from.

Your brother in Christ,
Eleazar

Sorry I don't have time to go into a lot here but only offer a stupid tease of an answer, but it isn't faith, or works, that saves. It's grace. So it's not even a matter of if faith saves, then etc. We also know that faith without works is dead, useless, and definitely of no benefit to Him in whom we have that faith.

Let me ask you, is it wrong to strive to be holy?

[Eleazar7]

I have exposed my inexperience by saying faith when I meant grace as you pointed out. And the obvious answer is no it is not wrong to strive to be holy. But if you wouldnt mind, I would like another explanation for the need for purgatory. I just don't see the point.

[adopted heir]

I have exposed my inexperience by saying faith when I meant grace as you pointed out. And the obvious answer is no it is not wrong to strive to be holy. But if you wouldnt mind, I would like another explanation for the need for purgatory. I just don't see the point.

I hope I didn't offend you in that post, E. I'll try to give a longer explanation of at least my reasons.

For me it's a matter of logic. This may not be good enough for anyone else, but it makes sense to me as more than just a "Well this is what I think so it's right" kind of way. Personally I've had a problem reconciling a lot of Protestant theology with what the Bible actually says--after I had become a Christian in a non-denominational church and before I had converted ultimately to Catholicism. I guess one of the benefits of Protestantism is that there's so many different flavors, there's almost guaranteed to be one that tastes just right. :bl: Unfortunately for me, none of them showed complete faithfulness to the whole Bible--you know how some sects can pick and choose ideologies to fit their preconceived notions and any verses that suggest otherwise are conveniently forgotten.

For me, I've always had a problem reconciling the fact that we are all sinners, that we continue throughout our lives, even after we've been saved, to sin. It never made sense to me that after we were supposedly "covered" as Luther proposed, that we still sinned. If we're new creatures, made pure, why do we still go back to those ways? All of us have some sin that we hold onto, no matter how earnestly we try, and it can take years, our whole life, to beat the desire for that sin. How can someone be simultaneously free from sin and succumb to it? Add to this that no sin, in any form, can come into the presence of God, and what does that make of the believer who still falls to temptation?

Since no sin is allowable in God's presence, in any form, since He will not tolerate it, under any circumstances, the proposition of "covering" our iniquity seems superficial at best. I mean, do we really think we can trick God into not seeing that we are still sinful creatures, like Jason and the Argonauts hiding under sheep to escape the Cyclops? While Christ's blood through the redeeming sacrifice is more than sufficient for my sins and the sins of all the world, so far, I still sin (I don't say this as an excuse but a statement of fact--I still do stupid, selfish things, and I know a lot of other people who do, too) and I know that while I am marked as belonging to Him, I KNOW I am not spotless, and if I tried to pass it off like I was, God would probably laugh. And then smite me. Not really, but you see what I mean.

Now, I realize that I may not, as many people do not, eradicate sin from my behavior during my lifetime. I don't mean to sound like our salvation depends on our works, but our state of grace does. If we sin, that affects the cleanliness of our soul. If we do not sin, that likewise affects the cleanliness of our soul. But if I get to my deathbed and I still, for example, think really mean things about certain people even though I know it's wrong, that's sinful, there's still the desire to sin in my imperfect being. Now I die. Now what? Is there some magical poof! and then I don't have the desire to sin? Because with that still on my heart, I'm unallowable before God--I have the mark of sin on me, however big or small or superficial--and have to be made pure. Without getting into things like Extreme Unction or Confession or any of that, because, keeping in mind, this is still me in my pre-Catholic reasoning, there has to be something that purifies me, that doesn't just cover (because that won't fool God) but actually burn up and destroy the very urge in me to sin (concupisense, or spelled very closely to that) so that I can stand pure and spotless and unashamed in front of my Father.

The answer to that, for me, came in the form of the idea of Purgatory. It's not a punishment, or an alternative to hell, or working off sins in order to impress God. It's not like pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps to God's level, which would be works-based salvation (which there is none). Purgatory is like the anteroom of Heaven--you're on your way in, you're sealed into where you are going, you just need a little preparation before you can go in. It's like you're going to a wedding, but on the way there, your car broke down and you had to walk, and fell in a mud puddle and got your pants caught on a pokey thing of some sort and they tore, and it rained and your hair got all soggy and stringy, and by the time you got to the wedding, you looked like something the cat coughed up. The father of the groom sees this mess in the foyer, and says, "Whoa! Where are you going looking like that? Let's get you cleaned up so you'll be a joy for my son and his bride to see." So you're washed and scrubbed and get your hair fixed and some new threads, and bam, you're GQ. You were still coming to the wedding, you just needed a lot of sprucing up before you got there.

The purpose of Purgatory, then, is not to earn your way in, but to polish yourself to present the best possible you you can when you are brought into the Father's presence, because none of us want to get there and be destroyed in fiery righteousness or anything like that. And who of us in good conscience can think of standing before Him on that day and knowing we were trying to pass ourselves off as less than He requires? Again, not as a "I'm good enough because of what I did" but "Finally, by God's grace and the intercession of all the people who have prayed for this, and the changes that have come into my life and how I conduct myself and control my urges, I can honestly stand before my Maker and know that I am as He intended."

I hope that is a better explanation. I don't expect it to persuade you, but that's what it was for me. There just wasn't an alternative that made sense. Even if you don't necessarily agree, does that at least answer the question?

Thanks,
AH

[Eleazar7]

Fortunately I was not offended in the least bit by anything that you posted.

In terms of a protestant denomination that has complete faithfulness in the bible I would put of Evangelical Presbyterian. I have not fully researched all of what they believe but the church I grew up in was EP. And yes I know all to well about different sects picking and choosing or just doing stupid things. We used to be a reformed church but other reformed churchs near us had people publically denouncing Christ. Great thing for a church to do!

Personally I have never heard about Martin Luther saying our sins are "covered". To me it was always more of a wiping away of sins, a clean slate. I understand what you are saying about purgatory and it does make some good sense. In the end it does answer my question.

On another note it comes down to what you believe is necessary for entrance into heaven. Personally I don't think that purgatory is required. In order to go to heaven you obviously would have had to choose christ. In heaven we would have already chosen him and will be stripped of our sinful nature to the level of Adam was. Heaven will be such a place where the choice not to sin is apparent. You may speculate that what is to say that you won't still choose sin that you are still not up to God's level as you propose. In speculation maybe entrance into heaven requires that you are to the point where you won't ever choose sin once you are in. This does a terrible job of speculating. I understand where you are coming from and I realize your position probably has more thought put into it than my own. However I find it hard to believe in purgatory simply because Jesus and the Bible never mention it. They mention Heaven and Hell many times but never is it indicated that there is more required to enter Heaven. If you get what I mean? If this doesn't make sense then so be it, I am quite tired right now but wanted to respond to your post anyway. If I had had more time I might have looked up what C.S. Lewis or Peter Kreeft said about heaven in some of their books but I just dont have the time.

Eleazar

[adopted heir]

Fortunately I was not offended in the least bit by anything that you posted.

In terms of a protestant denomination that has complete faithfulness in the bible I would put of Evangelical Presbyterian. I have not fully researched all of what they believe but the church I grew up in was EP. And yes I know all to well about different sects picking and choosing or just doing stupid things. We used to be a reformed church but other reformed churchs near us had people publically denouncing Christ. Great thing for a church to do!

Personally I have never heard about Martin Luther saying our sins are "covered". To me it was always more of a wiping away of sins, a clean slate. I understand what you are saying about purgatory and it does make some good sense. In the end it does answer my question.

On another note it comes down to what you believe is necessary for entrance into heaven. Personally I don't think that purgatory is required. In order to go to heaven you obviously would have had to choose christ. In heaven we would have already chosen him and will be stripped of our sinful nature to the level of Adam was. Heaven will be such a place where the choice not to sin is apparent. You may speculate that what is to say that you won't still choose sin that you are still not up to God's level as you propose. In speculation maybe entrance into heaven requires that you are to the point where you won't ever choose sin once you are in. This does a terrible job of speculating. I understand where you are coming from and I realize your position probably has more thought put into it than my own. However I find it hard to believe in purgatory simply because Jesus and the Bible never mention it. They mention Heaven and Hell many times but never is it indicated that there is more required to enter Heaven. If you get what I mean? If this doesn't make sense then so be it, I am quite tired right now but wanted to respond to your post anyway. If I had had more time I might have looked up what C.S. Lewis or Peter Kreeft said about heaven in some of their books but I just dont have the time.

Eleazar


Okay, good. It's hard to read vocal inflections in writing, you know? So it's hard to tell when something I wrote may have come across as snooty and whatnot. :teeth: I do see where you're coming from as well, and I'm so glad to finally have a non-full-of-b.s. conversation on differing views. And, once again, I'm going to have to reply in more detail later when I have a little more time. :D

[David Kaiser]

I hope I didn't offend you in that post, E. I'll try to give a longer explanation of at least my reasons.

For me it's a matter of logic.

For me, I've always had a problem reconciling the fact that we are all sinners, that we continue throughout our lives, even after we've been saved, to sin.

Since no sin is allowable in God's presence, in any form, since He will not tolerate it, under any circumstances, the proposition of "covering" our iniquity seems superficial at best. I mean, do we really think we can trick God into not seeing that we are still sinful creatures, like Jason and the Argonauts hiding under sheep to escape the Cyclops? While Christ's blood through the redeeming sacrifice is more than sufficient for my sins and the sins of all the world, so far, I still sin (I don't say this as an excuse but a statement of fact--I still do stupid, selfish things, and I know a lot of other people who do, too) and I know that while I am marked as belonging to Him, I KNOW I am not spotless, and if I tried to pass it off like I was, God would probably laugh. And then smite me. Not really, but you see what I mean.

Thanks,
AH

If I may add my two cents. Cent one: When you die the flesh with its sinful nature will die with it. You will not be dragging that sinful nature with you into God's presences. And at the return of Christ, you will have a new body added to your soul that is sinless as well as immortal and imperishable. You will not have to go through a wash and spin cycle with this rag of a garment to try to get it presentable to God. (By the flesh I am not just talking about the body, but the nature of the soul that has at the present time a proclivity for sin. ) Cent two: Purgutory may seem logical to the mind. But is nowhere as hinted in scripture and flys in the face of the Pauline theology.

[RCNicholas]

As long as we're on the subject of purgatory, where in the bible does it say that the wages of sin for the Christian is purgatory?

Seems to me that Paul said that there is therefore NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Michael
Since Purgatory isn't a condemnation, I'm not seeing you're point.

[adopted heir]

Since Purgatory isn't a condemnation, I'm not seeing you're point.

Exactly---Purgatory is assurance of Heaven. You can't go backward out of it. If you're in, you're on your way up. That's not condemning at all.