Are there any Greek JW's?

[Skippy]

Over the past five or years, or so, I have tried to find out how many Greeks are members of the Watchtower Society. I can find information on how to obtain copies of their publications printed in Greek, but I have yet to find any demographic information.

My reason for trying to find this may be wrong, but it makes sense to me for now. The Russellites have claimed a mistranslation of The Bible (KJV, NIV, etc.) - It makes sense then that the largest group of JW's should be found in the country whose language is the dominant language of The New Ttestament. One would think that the Greek people would be the most accurate at understanding The Bible in its original meaning, right?

Skippy

[furay]

One would think that the Greek people would be the most accurate at understanding The Bible in its original meaning, right?

They are... that's why they're all Orthodox. :teeth:

[barryrob]

Over the past five or years, or so, I have tried to find out how many Greeks are members of the Watchtower Society. I can find information on how to obtain copies of their publications printed in Greek, but I have yet to find any demographic information.

My reason for trying to find this may be wrong, but it makes sense to me for now. The Russellites have claimed a mistranslation of The Bible (KJV, NIV, etc.) - It makes sense then that the largest group of JW's should be found in the country whose language is the dominant language of The New Ttestament. One would think that the Greek people would be the most accurate at understanding The Bible in its original meaning, right?

Skippy

Any one person understands the Bible via the Holy Spirit from Jehovah and not due to any language group!

Barryrob

[Skippy]

Any one person understands the Bible via the Holy Spirit from Jehovah and not due to any language group!

Barryrob
I totally agree. But my question refers to the JWs contention that their interpretation of scripture is the only correct version. It seems logical that Greeks would not need an interpretation of the bulk of New Testament scripture, so there is less chance for them to be led astray by a misinterpretation.

[barryrob]

I totally agree. But my question refers to the JWs contention that their interpretation of scripture is the only correct version. It seems logical that Greeks would not need an interpretation of the bulk of New Testament scripture, so there is less chance for them to be led astray by a misinterpretation.

1st I would not say that the NWT "is the only correct version (as it is not an inspired document) but that is more accurate than some other versions, to which some scholars agree for various reasons

2nd Wish that it was that easy, but that is not so. Interpretation is affected by many things, bias, preconceived ideas, doctrines, personal likes and dislikes, peer pressure, poor linguistics, or just plain dogma to name but a few. So to say that because one speak a language that is close to the original penmen of the Holy Texts are "less" likely to " misinterpretation " is to over simplify matters. Case in point is The Israelites had the Holy Texts to show them the Messiah was to come and when etc.* (they murdered Him), they speak a language close to that of the scriptures and they are more lost now than in Jesus day due to not understanding the Bible's message accurately.

*Matthew 15:7-9 . . .YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’"

Barryrob

[Shadow Phoenix]

1st I would not say that the NWT "is the only correct version (as it is not an inspired document) but that is more accurate than some other versions, to which some scholars agree for various reasons

I'd like to see these scholars, their credentials in Greek and/or Hebrew, and their reasons. Furthermore, are you aware of the stance of Bruce Metzger, the leading authority in biblical translation on the NWT?

2nd Wish that it was that easy, but that is not so. Interpretation is affected by many things, bias, preconceived ideas, doctrines, personal likes and dislikes, peer pressure, poor linguistics, or just plain dogma to name but a few. So to say that because one speak a language that is close to the original penmen of the Holy Texts are "less" likely to " misinterpretation " is to over simplify matters. Case in point is The Israelites had the Holy Texts to show them the Messiah was to come and when etc.* (they murdered Him), they speak a language close to that of the scriptures and they are more lost now than in Jesus day due to not understanding the Bible's message accurately.

Actually, when an overseer knocked on my door, he told me about the 25,000 JWs that speak Greek. I think Skippy has a great point though. What were the credentials of the translators of the NWT? Did they know Greek and Hebrew? I think we can find the answer out easily.

[sonofyah]

I totally agree. But my question refers to the JWs contention that their interpretation of scripture is the only correct version. It seems logical that Greeks would not need an interpretation of the bulk of New Testament scripture, so there is less chance for them to be led astray by a misinterpretation.

History teaches us that Charles Russell was a liar. He lied on the witness stand when asked if he knew any Greek. He said Yes. After tested they found out that he doesnt know any Greek. He lied and said he was ordained. They asked by whom. He did not have an answer. He also falsely prophesied about the Messiahs return more then 3 times. The point I am making is that the movement is built on a liar. They have magazines called "The Divine Name". Ask one of them to give you one. There own Bible on the very first page states:

These are the words of [YHWH] Jehovah...

So if you recognize the confusion started in the begining you will understand that one day someone in that organization will realize they are wrong and make a change.

Deut.4:2

[Skippy]

1st I would not say that the NWT "is the only correct version (as it is not an inspired document) but that is more accurate than some other versions, to which some scholars agree for various reasons.

Barryrob
Is it your contention that the King James, New King James, New International and North American Standard Versions are all incorrect translations? Referring back to your previous post, "Any one person understands the Bible via the Holy Spirit from Jehovah and not due to any language group," Doesn't it make sense that those who worked on those versions under the influence of the Holy Spirit would produce a correct interpretation?

[Skippy]

2nd Wish that it was that easy, but that is not so. Interpretation is affected by many things, bias, preconceived ideas, doctrines, personal likes and dislikes, peer pressure, poor linguistics, or just plain dogma to name but a few. So to say that because one speak a language that is close to the original penmen of the Holy Texts are "less" likely to " misinterpretation " is to over simplify matters. Case in point is The Israelites had the Holy Texts to show them the Messiah was to come and when etc.* (they murdered Him), they speak a language close to that of the scriptures and they are more lost now than in Jesus day due to not understanding the Bible's message accurately.

Barryrob
Good point...that is why we need to rely on the Holy Spirit and not man's interpretations.

Found this info on the NWT:
"The publisher of this version (NWT) has never made public the names of the translators. But former members of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization have identified the members of the committee as Nathan H. Knorr (President of the organization), Frederick W. Franz (Vice-President), George D. Gangas, and Albert D. Schroeder. According to Raymond V. Franz, the "principal translator of the Society's New World Translation" was Frederick W. Franz. (1) According to M. James Penton, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man, Frederick Franz." Franz afterwards became the President of the organization, from 1977 to 1992, and was responsible for the revisions."

Footnotes
1. Raymond V. Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), p. 50. The author, Raymond V. Franz, was from 1971 to 1980 a member of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and a nephew of vice-president Frederick W. Franz. He wrote Crisis of Conscience after being expelled from the organization. On page 50 of the book he adds the following information in a footnote: "Other members of that Committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas; Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew."" (Hardly an expert in Biblical languages - Skippy)

[barryrob]

Doesn't it make sense that those who worked on those versions under the influence of the Holy Spirit would produce a correct interpretation?

No. There in only one true faith Eph 4:3-4 who "worship the Father (Jehovah) in spitit and truth" (John 4:24) thus they are the only channel of Holy Spirit to mankind via Jesus Christ.

Barryrob

[Shadow Phoenix]

No. There in only one true faith Eph 4:3-4 who "worship the Father (Jehovah) in spitit and truth" (John 4:24) thus they are the only channel of Holy Spirit to mankind via Jesus Christ.

Barryrob

Are you saying unity = conformity?

Peter and Paul disagreed in the Galatian letter. Which one of them was in the true faith and which one wasn't? Please let me know whose epistles I need to rip out of my Bible.

[sonofyah]

Is it your contention that the King James, New King James, New International and North American Standard Versions are all incorrect translations? Referring back to your previous post, "Any one person understands the Bible via the Holy Spirit from Jehovah and not due to any language group," Doesn't it make sense that those who worked on those versions under the influence of the Holy Spirit would produce a correct interpretation?

Yes, if they were under the direction of the Holy Spirit

[barryrob]

Good point...that is why we need to rely on the Holy Spirit and not man's interpretations.

Found this info on the NWT:
"The publisher of this version (NWT) has never made public the names of the translators. But former members of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization have identified the members of the committee as Nathan H. Knorr (President of the organization), Frederick W. Franz (Vice-President), George D. Gangas, and Albert D. Schroeder. According to Raymond V. Franz, the "principal translator of the Society's New World Translation" was Frederick W. Franz. (1) According to M. James Penton, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man, Frederick Franz." Franz afterwards became the President of the organization, from 1977 to 1992, and was responsible for the revisions."

Footnotes
1. Raymond V. Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), p. 50. The author, Raymond V. Franz, was from 1971 to 1980 a member of the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and a nephew of vice-president Frederick W. Franz. He wrote Crisis of Conscience after being expelled from the organization. On page 50 of the book he adds the following information in a footnote: "Other members of that Committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas; Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew."" (Hardly an expert in Biblical languages - Skippy)

The LXX was translated by 70 or so unknown persons, but it is excepted as a work of some excelance, not because of the persons who translated it but on it’s own merits.



Some say the NWT is a good rendering of the ancient texts some do not. Those how do not mostly (not all) do so on doctrinal grounds e.g. the Trinity, Hellfire, or the like, as they do not agree with the rendering of some of the texts because they challenge their theology.



So any Bible translation stands or falls on it’s own merits, not anyone’s personal preferences, is that not so?



Barryrob

[Skippy]

Quote: Originally posted by Skippy
Doesn't it make sense that those who worked on those versions under the influence of the Holy Spirit would produce a correct interpretation?
No. There in only one true faith Eph 4:3-4 who "worship the Father (Jehovah) in spirit and truth" (John 4:24) thus they are the only channel of Holy Spirit to mankind via Jesus Christ.
Barryrob
That makes no sense in reference to this discussion. I agree with Eph 4:3-4 and John 4:24, but that does not rule out a group of men, under the influyence of The Holy Spirit, producing a true and correct version of The Bible. In fact, your references might bolster that argument.

Instead, the JWs use an interpretation made by basically one person with a limited amount of Greek language training and no Hebrew or Aramaic language training.

Now, back to the real question I had...noting what I just wrote, what do the Greeks believe is correct? The NWT or one of the other versions?

[barryrob]

Quote: Originally posted by Skippy
Doesn't it make sense that those who worked on those versions under the influence of the Holy Spirit would produce a correct interpretation?

That makes no sense in reference to this discussion. I agree with Eph 4:3-4 and John 4:24, but that does not rule out a group of men, under the influyence of The Holy Spirit, producing a true and correct version of The Bible. In fact, your references might bolster that argument.

Instead, the JWs use an interpretation made by basically one person with a limited amount of Greek language training and no Hebrew or Aramaic language training.

Now, back to the real question I had...noting what I just wrote, what do the Greeks believe is correct? The NWT or one of the other versions?

As recorded in our 2005 Year Book we have some 28,000 brothers and sisters in Greece that are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, if that answers your question. And as we produce the NWT in Modern Greek herein is your answer todate.

Barryrob

[Shadow Phoenix]

As recorded in our 2005 Year Book we have some 28,000 brothers and sisters in Greece that are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, if that answers your question. And as we produce the NWT in Modern Greek herein is your answer todate.

Barryrob

And we have well over 28,000 people in America that speak English and aren't English scholars. Some would write something in English so atrocious that any English professor would flunk it.

Hate to burst your bubble but Koine Greek is not the same as modern Greek. How many of those 28,000 know Koine Greek on a fluent level? If so, what part did they have in translating the NWT?

[Hail Mary]

Any one person understands the Bible via the Holy Spirit from Jehovah and not due to any language group!

What can you understand from this?

[Skippy]

As recorded in our 2005 Year Book we have some 28,000 brothers and sisters in Greece that are Jehovah's Christian Witnesses, if that answers your question. And as we produce the NWT in Modern Greek herein is your answer todate.
Barryrob
Thanks for the answer. As I said in the beginning of this thread I've never been able to find the number.

Population: 10,647,529 (July 2004 est.)
Net migration rate: 2.35 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.)

.0026297% of Greeks are JW Appears to make my point.

[barryrob]

Thanks for the answer. As I said in the beginning of this thread I've never been able to find the number.

Population: 10,647,529 (July 2004 est.)
Net migration rate: 2.35 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.)

.0026297% of Greeks are JW Appears to make my point.


But more importantly it shows what jesus said to be true at:-



Matthew 7:13-14

"Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

Barryrob

[Skippy]

But more importantly it shows what jesus said to be true at:-
Matthew 7:13-14

"Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.

Barryrob

Good try. But for your interpretation of that passage to be true, there would have been no TRUE Christian until Charles Russell came along in about 1879. So that leaves out Paul and the eleven Apostles, but your organization includes those men in the 144,000.?.?.? :poke:

[barryrob]

Good try. But for your interpretation of that passage to be true, there would have been no TRUE Christian until Charles Russell came along in about 1879. So that leaves out Paul and the eleven Apostles, but your organization includes those men in the 144,000.?.?.? :poke:


Not so, as there have always been some True Christians (few in number) on earth from Jesus down to today.

Barryrob

[Skippy]

Not so, as there have always been some True Christians (few in number) on earth from Jesus down to today.
Barryrob
But how could that be without the "Watchtower Society?" Without a Kingdom Hall OR a "correct" biblical interpretation (a.k.a. -NWT) to guide them? Without C.T. Russell and his Russellites pointing the way, from at least the early 1600's we know that people believed the King James Version which clearly shows Jesus to be God (John 1:1) and has Him crucified on a cross (Jesus said, "take up your cross (not pole) and follow me" Matt 16:24).

Everyone before Russell must have been deceived.

[barryrob]

But how could that be without the "Watchtower Society?" Without a Kingdom Hall OR a "correct" biblical interpretation (a.k.a. -NWT) to guide them? Without C.T. Russell and his Russellites pointing the way, from at least the early 1600's we know that people believed the King James Version which clearly shows Jesus to be God (John 1:1) and has Him crucified on a cross (Jesus said, "take up your cross (not pole) and follow me" Matt 16:24).

Everyone before Russell must have been deceived.





Holy Spirit gives understanding, most did except the KJV as accurate, some saw through its inaccuracies and did not believe that it was correct in all of its renderings e.g. Isaac Newton did not except the Trinity.


During the many centuries on Christendom’s apostasy in is said:-
WT 1999 2/1 p. 17 Our Treasure in Earthen Vessels
“We do not know how many of the anointed were gathered in the first century and from among the “weeds” during the dark centuries of Christendom’s great apostasy.”


re chap. 6 p. 31 Unlocking a Sacred Secret In his parable of the wheat and the "weeds, Jesus foretold the time of darkness that would exist while Christendom reigned supreme. Nevertheless, through all the centuries of apostasy, there would exist individual wheatlike Christians, genuine anointed ones. (Matthew 13:24-29, 36-43) Thus, when the Lord’s day dawned in October 1914, there were still true Christians on earth."


"Cross" deepens which Doctrine or Version you except as accurate!? “Execution stake” see Jewish N.T. by David H. Stern

Barryrob