Holy Ghost vs. Holy Spirit

[sonofyah]

Definition: Ghost
Ghost
Noun
1. A mental representation of some haunting experience.

Is the Spirit of Yahshua a Holy Haunting Experience? You decide.

[The Other Guy]

I'm not sure, but I think the only translation that uses the term 'ghost' to translate the Greek pneuma is dear old King Jimmy. Any others that use it would probably be from a similar time period to the KJV or follow its translation closely. That would mean that when is was translated 'ghost' in 1611, it probably was a more generic term like 'spirit' is today. I would suggest that reading a modern definition of 'ghost' into the word while reading a 400 year-old translation is not a good idea. I may be wrong on this, but that would be my guess. If there are any other versions or translations that use it (NKJV and KJ21 don't count because of their close association with the KJV), please let me know.

As to whether or not we should use the term 'Holy Ghost' to refer to the third member of the Trinity today, I can't see any problems with it. Christians generally recognise that it's used as a proper name for him and not just a description. The same works for the second member of the Trinity - Jesus Christ. In reality, Christ is not a surname, it was originally his title: Jesus the Christ, or Jesus the Anointed. However, it very quickly became not just a title, but intrinsic to his identity, so the church dropped the definite article and referred to him as Jesus Christ. I hope this helps.

[The Other Guy]

Another point: I think the KJV used the terms spirit and ghost interchangeably in some circumstances when referring to the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

[Timothy Leary]

Definition: Ghost
Ghost
Noun
1. A mental representation of some haunting experience.

Is the Spirit of Yahshua a Holy Haunting Experience? You decide.

A "spirit" can be defined the same way.

[Yamyam]

I wonder about that too...when translating Heilige Geest to English I'm always thinking: should it be Ghost or Spirit because I see people call it different here...

[Provoker]

Definition: Ghost
Ghost
Noun
1. A mental representation of some haunting experience.

Is the Spirit of Yahshua a Holy Haunting Experience? You decide.
Hello sonofyah:
The modern meaning of Ghost, or spirit, does not have anything to do with the meaning of the Greek word "pneuma", which means "wind", or more commonly, "breath which gives life(normal respiration)", so the bible word "spirit", or "ghost", is used as a metaphore for "that which is in one's heart and mind, which is the *breath which gives life* to his attitude and actions".
This is not a message from God...LOL just my honest opinion:-)

[kiwimac]

Ghost From www.dictionary.com

[Middle English gost, from Old English gst, breath, spirit.]


Spirit from www. Dictionary.com

[Middle English, from Old French espirit, from Latin spritus, breath, from sprre, to breathe.]

In English we have a lot of double words, words that come from our Germanic languages (of which Old English was one) and others from the Norman (French) invasions. Ghost is the SAME word as Spirit in its original meaning but like many another double word it has come to have a difference in meaning from the French word which replaced it for several centuries.

Another example of this is 'Heathen' and 'Pagan' , one of which is Germanic and the other Norman French. Again English at one time had three words for 'Handbook', handbook itself coming to us as the Anglo-Saxon translation of manualis which itself was the latin version of the Greek egheiridion. During the Middle English period 'handboc' was dropped in favour of the French 'Manual' and then in the sixteenth century the Greek word 'enchiridion' was introduced as well. Indeed it is only since 1814 or so that 'Handbook' has made a reappearance.

Kiwimac

[swos]

I wonder about that too...when translating Heilige Geest to English I'm always thinking: should it be Ghost or Spirit because I see people call it different here...

They're interchangeable. I've heard song lyrics with terms such as "geistlos", which certainly wouldn't translate to "Ghostless" but rather "spiritless".

Considering the close similarity of Dutch to German, you can apply the same logic.

The post above this is more than sufficient to explain the reasons we use one or the other, and the interchangability of each.

[themuzicman]

Ghost From www.dictionary.com

[Middle English gost, from Old English gst, breath, spirit.]


Spirit from www. Dictionary.com

[Middle English, from Old French espirit, from Latin spritus, breath, from sprre, to breathe.]

In English we have a lot of double words, words that come from our Germanic languages (of which Old English was one) and others from the Norman (French) invasions. Ghost is the SAME word as Spirit in its original meaning but like many another double word it has come to have a difference in meaning from the French word which replaced it for several centuries.

Another example of this is 'Heathen' and 'Pagan' , one of which is Germanic and the other Norman French. Again English at one time had three words for 'Handbook', handbook itself coming to us as the Anglo-Saxon translation of manualis which itself was the latin version of the Greek egheiridion. During the Middle English period 'handboc' was dropped in favour of the French 'Manual' and then in the sixteenth century the Greek word 'enchiridion' was introduced as well. Indeed it is only since 1814 or so that 'Handbook' has made a reappearance.

Kiwimac
Not to be picky or anything, but the bible wasn't written in English. If you want to get down and dirty regardng the meaning of a word in the bible, you gotta go back to the Greek.

Michael

[kiwimac]

Actually we were discussing "Holy Ghost" as opposed to "Holy Spirit." This dichotomy does not exist in Greek or Hebrew. It is purely a construction of the English Language.

Kiwimac

[sonofyah]

Not to be picky or anything, but the bible wasn't written in English. If you want to get down and dirty regardng the meaning of a word in the bible, you gotta go back to the Greek.

Michael

You are on the right track but I think we should be looking at what the Hebrew says first and then look at the Greek.

Ruach Hakodesh:

Ruach(spirit)-breath;air;strength;wind;courage;and temper....

there is no "ghost there"

When you see the "holy ghost" this is another example of the Anglo-saxon identity crisis.

Old English bibles like King James(version) brings about consistant error. But what is most important to take notice too is the facts listed below:

1. The 1611 KJV had the Apocrapha in it
2. The 1611 did not have jesus in it
3. The 1611 did not have Jehovah in it
4. The 1611 had and illusrtation of Yod Hay VAV Hay in one of the pictures

Now if Your KJV doesnot have any of the things listed above, what we have is a bunch of people re-writing the scriptures and finding error and/or removing truth. Since that time the KJV is now the New KJV and people still donot get the picture. ERROR.

Futhermore how can you trust the doctrine of a people who's langauge borrows from the German, Latin, French, Arab and so on....how do you rightly divide the truth which has been presented if you trust the english VERSION, thats the question you should be asking. What does version mean?

[Menachem]

You are on the right track but I think we should be looking at what the Hebrew says first and then look at the Greek.

Ruach Hakodesh:

Ruach(spirit)-breath;air;strength;wind;courage;and temper....

there is no "ghost there"


Actually Ruach can mean Ghost in hebrew. Since a Ghost is a spirit of sorts.

Ruach doesnt have the meaning of Courage or Temper. it is however a part of phrase expressing the english word courage in a way.

For a type of "courage" it is "o'z ruach" literally saying "strong spirit." not Simply Ruach. Courage doesnt even fully explain this expression either. simply saying "courage" in English causes the Hebrew to lose meaning in translation.

The word Ruach is not listed in any dictionary that I have as comprising a phrase nor even the word itself meaning "Temper."

Strenght it definately does not mean. lets see that is all I have top say on the Subject of the Hebrew word "Ruach."

Shalom,

[sonofyah]

Actually Ruach can mean Ghost in hebrew. Since a Ghost is a spirit of sorts.

Ruach doesnt have the meaning of Courage or Temper. it is however a part of phrase expressing the english word courage in a way.

For a type of "courage" it is "o'z ruach" literally saying "strong spirit." not Simply Ruach. Courage doesnt even fully explain this expression either. simply saying "courage" in English causes the Hebrew to lose meaning in translation.

The word Ruach is not listed in any dictionary that I have as comprising a phrase nor even the word itself meaning "Temper."

Strenght it definately does not mean. lets see that is all I have top say on the Subject of the Hebrew word "Ruach."

Shalom,

Actually Ruach can mean Ghost in hebrew

Either it means ghost or it doesnt.

Home > Lexicons > Hebrew Lexicon > Ruwach
The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 7307 xwr
Original Word Word Origin
xwr from (07306)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Ruwach roo'-akh
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Feminine 2131a
Definition
wind, breath, mind, spirit
breath
wind
of heaven
quarter (of wind), side
breath of air
air, gas
vain, empty thing
spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
courage
temper, anger
impatience, patience
spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
prophetic spirit
spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
spirit (as seat of emotion)
desire
sorrow, trouble
spirit
as seat or organ of mental acts
rarely of the will
as seat especially of moral character
Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
as endowing men with various gifts
as energy of life
as manifest in the Shekinah glory
never referred to as a depersonalised force


This from an Interlinear Bible. I don't see "ghost" anywhere.

[Menachem]

Either it means ghost or it doesnt.

Home > Lexicons > Hebrew Lexicon > Ruwach
The Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 7307 xwr
Original Word Word Origin
xwr from (07306)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Ruwach roo'-akh
Parts of Speech TWOT
Noun Feminine 2131a
Definition
wind, breath, mind, spirit
breath
wind
of heaven
quarter (of wind), side
breath of air
air, gas
vain, empty thing
spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
courage
temper, anger
impatience, patience
spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
prophetic spirit
spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
spirit (as seat of emotion)
desire
sorrow, trouble
spirit
as seat or organ of mental acts
rarely of the will
as seat especially of moral character
Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
as endowing men with various gifts
as energy of life
as manifest in the Shekinah glory
never referred to as a depersonalised force


This from an Interlinear Bible. I don't see "ghost" anywhere.

A Ghost is a disembodied being is it not? Concordinances are not dictionaries. All of the Hebrew dictionaries that I have say this word can mean Ghost. Strongs gives only things from the "Bible" and it gives meanings to this word that simply arent accurate. Unless it provides and instance in the Tanakh where it is used as such which it doesnt from what I can tell from your post. And I cannot think of any place that uses the word "Ruach" to mean the terms I listed below.


to further my objection of many of the meanings above I will provide you with the phrase describing a form of "Patience" and show you why it does not mean "patience. For example to say "patience" in hebrew is not simply the word "Ruach" in hebrew it is אֹרֶךְ-רוּחַ "Orek-Ruach" it comprises a part of the expression that means a form of "patience" and literally reads "long spirit" or "lenghten [your] spirit." but is not the word for "patience" but part of the expression meaning a form of "patience."

these words:
desire
sorrow, trouble
temper, anger
animation, vivacity, vigour

the word does not mean. the rest the word could in context connotate. concordinances except for this part:

"the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son"

Which it never had to begin with. Hebrew word.....Greek Idea....doesn't mix.

[The Other Guy]

eliyosef


the word does not mean. the rest the word could in context connotate. concordinances except for this part:

"the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son"

Which it never had to begin with.



Couldn't agree with you more. It's a gross error to anachronistically read later trinitarian thoughts back into the semantic range of a classical Hebrew word. This also pretty much renders sonyofah's statement about having to go back to Hebrew as incorrect. The only place where it the phrase "Holy Ghost/Spirit" took on any titular sense was the New Testament, for a distinct person within the Godhead.

Hebrew word.....Greek Idea....doesn't mix.

I can't agree with this statement fully though, for two reasons. First, it was Jewish Christians who first used the the term hagion pneuma as a titular phrase. The very point that this was in Greekpreempts my second point: ideas are not bound by linguistics. Actually, this idea was most likely originally communicated in Aramaic, considering it was the first language of both Jesus and his first disciples, thus rendering any statement about original language determining the culture for the term moot. Again though, this is a later use of the word in a phrase, so that doesn't invalidate your argument from the Tanakh. It does not mean that that word can't be used in that way though. The difference is that the titular phrase was not in the Tanakh, or cannot be read back into it. It obviously can be used of God's spirit though. Thus ends my rant on language and culture :teeth:.

Sonyofah, the point is people have provided evidence from the development of the English language, contemporary usages of the terms 'spirit' and 'ghost' when the KJV was written, from Koine Greek AND Classical Hebrew. Though I believe retreating th classical Hebrew is the wrong place to go, because you would need to prove that ruach, when used in reference to God's spirit, constitutes the use of a personal titular phrase. I know of nowhere in the Tanakh that used it that way of the third member of the Trinity (BTW, I AM a trinitarian, just so no strawmen are burnt :noid:), reference to the Tanakh on the titular phrase (most likely even the third member himself) is anachronistic. Were not in a KJ-only conspiracy here :noid:, it's just that your point has been dealt with well enough to know there was no conspiracy set up by the translators of the KJV. As for your point about the evils of English speakers, just tell me what language you are posting in?:eek:

[The Other Guy]

Sorry for spelling your nickname wrong, Sonofyah :sigh:.

[Timothy Leary]

Either it means ghost or it doesnt.

Incorrect. A word can have multiple meanings, depending on the context.

For an example in English:
Go wind up the radio.

The wind is ferocious tonight.

In both those sentences, the meaning of wind was completly different.

Now let's try one in Hebrewעל לא דבר דבר השם
In the first, which is a way of saying "Thank You" in hebrew, דבר means "thing".

In the second, it means "word"

[The Other Guy]

dead.hobbit

Incorrect. A word can have multiple meanings, depending on the context.

For an example in English:
Go wind up the radio.

The wind is ferocious tonight.

In both those sentences, the meaning of wind was completly different.


I cant' comment on your example in Hebrew, I don't know enough about it. However, the example you give for the English word 'wind' doesn't really apply. Firstly, these words are homonyms - words that are spelled or pronounced the same but have different meanings. 'Wind' in the first sentence means: "move in or have a curving or twisting course" (www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)); in the second sentence it refers to moving air with no connotation as to the direction of the action. The two words have completely different realms of meaning, and can't mean the same thing.

In my opinion, a far better analogue to the discussion here would be the two words 'sun' and 'star'. General usage refers to the central body of our solar system as the sun, and other such objects outside our solar system as 'stars'. This is not a complete dichotomy though. Our sun can be referred to as a star, and other stars can also be referred to as suns. Therefore, there is significant overlap in their meaning. However, there are certain linguistic contexts where the two words are generally used differently. For instance, the sun is never really referred to as "the star" because the primary thought behind the word 'star' is usually referring to all large, spherical nuclear fusion reactors in the universe in a more generic sense. We will often say "our star", just as we often say "our sun", but an equivalent reference to the same body as those two descriptions is "the sun". Basically, the two words refer to the same sorts of bodies, but there is a little difference in how they refer to them in some contexts. My suggestion is that that was how the words 'ghost' and 'spirit' were understood relation to each other in 17th century English. This is a very convoluted way of saying that they were synonymous. No two words are ever exactly the same, but ghost and spirit did appear to come about as close in meaning as two words would, perhaps even closer than 'sun' and 'star'.

Note also that I'm referring specifically to the literal meanings of the words 'sun' and 'star'. I'm not referring to any subsequent meanings of either of these words (eg: 'a star', referring to a celebrity actor).

[LambofElohim]

Greetings,

Holy Ghost V.S. Holy Spirit? They are the same thing aren't they? Well what if they are not? What if one is just that a GHOST and the other is only a figment of man's imaginations created by retranslating the word "Ghost" into "Spirit" bringing life to the dead out of ignorance to The Truth? A Spirit of pride, clouded by grace and mercy just to deceive man into believing they have "God's" or "Jesus Christ's" presence within them. A famous trick by YeHeVeH the deviLORD in the Old Testament of the bible. Neither one are the Spirit of God spoken of in Genesis 1:2.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton

[Xian Pugilist]

Why not neither word, ghost or spirit, and go back to just WIND. Or Breath. It's a moving air. but that is too wordy.

You can see the wind's effects in the ocean, the prairies, your hair, the trees, the flag, the car during santa su. winds in so cal. You can see the wind's effects as it carries dirt, cut grass, trash, smoke, flickers flames, moves tumbleweeds....

But you can't see the wind.

you can feel the effects of the spirit in your life, you can see the effects of the spirit in the world, but you can't see the spirit.

A word, is to express a thought. We use words to form thoughts and pictures in our head. The argument over words should always be relative to the thought of the speaker, not on what else it could have mean if the speaker misspoke. :|

What is the intent of the word in scripture. I think spirit or ghost, or wind, would work. I wouldn't care what you called, even the Holy Fart, if it got the image across to the audience who He was, what He was doing.

[mirth man]

Holy Ghost is an idiom of the times from 19th century or eariler. It meant then, exactly the same thing Holy Spirit means today. You have to put things in historical context, that's all.

[Xian Pugilist]

Holy Ghost is an idiom of the times from 19th century or eariler. It meant then, exactly the same thing Holy Spirit means today. You have to put things in historical context, that's all.


Well, ummm, yeah? I'll meet you at the ragnarok!

The point is, either word draws images that are just bad at this time. In 3rd world countries, the use of the word "SPIRIT" affects them and pushes them more to the Charismatic movements, and some of them are less than ummmm pious. But, if you worded it as WIND or MOVEMENT or something else, it might avoid those issues.

Ghost, Spirit, wind, all are anthropomorphisms, none work as well as they could.