[split thread] Wright and the Identity of Jesus

[betzerg]

I've been reading a bit of NT Wright online this week about his views of Jesus' self-understanding, and was wanting a bit of input - what do you all make of him. Here are a couple of quotes

and one not from Wright, but summarising...
Now, whilst Wright does have a high christology in that he is a trinitarian, these quotes seem to reveal quite a low self-understanding on the part of Jesus - he doesn't seem to be aware in any sense that he is the one through whom all things were made, that he is worthy of the same worship as the father etc. the picture Wright shows is more of one who feels themselves called to act for God and do God's deeds, worthy of some form of exultation - this seems to be quite a way short of the Jesus we encounter in the beliefs of the early church, it is a very tentative self-understanding which somehow has to bloom into a full-blown revolution of the church's picture of God.

Anyone with me here? Or am I just misreading Wright?

Yeshua made several statements that would indicate he did not view himself as "G-d on earth". He said "only one is good,my father in heaven"...he made the statement " only my father knows the day and the hour"...he said "I have ONLY come to do the will of my father". His reference to being "ONE" with the father was immediately followed by "I pray that YOUwill be one." (to his talmidine) He was consistently refering to "the will of the father, thy will be done, etc.".

Yeshua compared HIMSELF to MOSES, who was also a deliverer of Israel. The anointed messiah of Israel was NEVEr to be "G-d"..and YESHUA knew this.
The reason for the confusion in christian ciricles is this: YESHUA WAS NOT ONE OF THE THREE PERSONS IN THE TRINITY...that is a pagan concept and not compatable with judaism EVER.

Shalom,

BETZER

[betzerg]

I, too, have been reading NT Wright. He is not a easy read. Listen to some of his sermons on his main page listed under Wright Audio/Video.

I don't think that anyone will appreciate what he is saying and why until you read his books. I have "The New Testament and The People of God," "Jesus and The Victory of God," "The Resurrection of The Son of God," "What Saint Paul Really Said," and "The Challenge of Jesus, Rediscovering Who Jesus Was and Is." The first three books I mentioned are long--about 700 pages each.

If you want to get a little introductory to Wright's thinking start with "The Challenge of Jesus, Rediscovering Who Jesus Was and Is." It is less than 200 pages.

I have found that I need to read his books and listen to his sermons a couple of times in order to understand what he is saying. I have no problem with Wright's theology.

Wright is a serious historian and has spent the majority of his lifetime studying the historical Jesus. I think that I can safely say that I have a better understanding of who Jesus was and is by reading his books. In order to understand Jesus and what He was trying to do--His mission, or vocation, as Wright calls it--we must understand first century Judaism. Wright is excellent at explaining this.

I wish I were further enough along with my study of Wright to be able to discuss his position in an intelligent way, but I am not.

Good luck and best wishes.

I took a course at our synagogue called "the jewish roots of the christian faith" the textbook for that class was called "Our Father Abraham" It is an excellent book about the person "Yeshua" who was a Jewish rabbi and "anointed teacher" of Israel in the first century. This rabbi made several statements that can ONLY be understood in the light of first century judaism and brings an entirely different understanding of the faith He taught.

I can also get a list of other books about the historical "jesus" monday night at class.

Shalom,

BETZER

[Darth Executor]

betzerg, this section is for non heretical Christians. Please keep that in mind.

[Pilgrim]

I took a course at our synagogue called "the jewish roots of the christian faith" the textbook for that class was called "Our Father Abraham" It is an excellent book about the person "Yeshua" who was a Jewish rabbi and "anointed teacher" of Israel in the first century. This rabbi made several statements that can ONLY be understood in the light of first century judaism and brings an entirely different understanding of the faith He taught.

I can also get a list of other books about the historical "jesus" monday night at class.

Shalom,

BETZER
I am a personal friend of the author (http://www.jewsandchristiansjourney.com/marvin_wilson.htm) of that text book, in fact, my wife was his teaching assistant and she herself used the book as resource in courses she teaches.

Indeed, Dr. Wilson does a fantastic job of linking Christians to their Jewish roots, but at the same time, as informed as he is about judaism, he does not find trinitarianism to be at odds with it. In fact, he is a trinitarian Christian.

Your statment that there is no place for trinitarianism with in a Judaic understanding is simply not accurate. You are right that there are varying understandings or interpretations, but just because you in particular hold a different view does not mean that there is no place for the others.

[Christian2]

I am a personal friend of the author (http://www.jewsandchristiansjourney.com/marvin_wilson.htm) of that text book, in fact, my wife was his teaching assistant and she herself used the book as resource in courses she teaches.

Indeed, Dr. Wilson does a fantastic job of linking Christians to their Jewish roots, but at the same time, as informed as he is about judaism, he does not find trinitarianism to be at odds with it. In fact, he is a trinitarian Christian.

Your statment that there is no place for trinitarianism with in a Judaic understanding is simply not accurate. You are right that there are varying understandings or interpretations, but just because you in particular hold a different view does not mean that there is no place for the others.

I agree with you. In my study of Judaism and Christianity I did find evidence of a trinitarian view within Judaism--the conception is there.

[Christian2]

Yeshua made several statements that would indicate he did not view himself as "G-d on earth". He said "only one is good,my father in heaven"...he made the statement " only my father knows the day and the hour"...he said "I have ONLY come to do the will of my father". His reference to being "ONE" with the father was immediately followed by "I pray that YOUwill be one." (to his talmidine) He was consistently refering to "the will of the father, thy will be done, etc.".

Yeshua compared HIMSELF to MOSES, who was also a deliverer of Israel. The anointed messiah of Israel was NEVEr to be "G-d"..and YESHUA knew this.
The reason for the confusion in christian ciricles is this: YESHUA WAS NOT ONE OF THE THREE PERSONS IN THE TRINITY...that is a pagan concept and not compatable with judaism EVER.

Shalom,

BETZER

Maybe you will get something out of this article: http://www.greatcom.org/resources/areadydefense/ch22/default.htm

which addresses whether Jesus was Messiah and God.

Did you notice that Jesus didn't say that He wasn't good? In fact, He called Himself the Good Shepherd and He received worship. If Jesus was only a prophet, He was obligated to correct those who worshipped Him, but He never did, not once.

Quote: "that is a pagan concept and not compatable with judaism EVER."

Perhaps you would like to read the following two articles.

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/answers/theology/trinityqna

The Trinity is Jewish: http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html

[betzerg]

I am a personal friend of the author (http://www.jewsandchristiansjourney.com/marvin_wilson.htm) of that text book, in fact, my wife was his teaching assistant and she herself used the book as resource in courses she teaches.

Indeed, Dr. Wilson does a fantastic job of linking Christians to their Jewish roots, but at the same time, as informed as he is about judaism, he does not find trinitarianism to be at odds with it. In fact, he is a trinitarian Christian.

Your statment that there is no place for trinitarianism with in a Judaic understanding is simply not accurate. You are right that there are varying understandings or interpretations, but just because you in particular hold a different view does not mean that there is no place for the others.

As I said earlier...I am having a struggle with the divinity of YESHUA...but, I'm working on it. And yes Orthodox jews DO have a very real problem with the "trinity"..especially as defined by the catholic church. It's called Paganism. I attend a Messianic congregation where the majority of believers have no problem with the "trinity" idea...but most refuse to use the word "trinity"...and refer to a somewhat Jewish mystical interpretation (Kabbalah) of the three pillars of the G-dhead to make the "three in one" concept fit into their theology. It works very well.

A dialogue concerning the jewish/christian debate over trinity is summed up in the book by pinchas Lepide and.....forget the christian author "Jewish monotheism and the Christian Trinity". Basically Lepide says he "understands" that christians are trying to remain monothesistic, but that the terminology used does not make this idea compatable with Judaism. Just read it.

Shalom,

BETZER