Does God eternally punish the wicked?

[apostoli]

My premise is yes, but as a one off event that lasts eternally (as opposed to eternally perpetuated).

My aim is to get an understanding of the various views held in the various Christian churches.

------------------------------------

I've just dumped a heap of pages concerning "Hell" from the CE, JE and elsewhere (see links below) that might be useful in the discussion. I've yet to wade through them ;-)

Catholic Encyclopedia: Purgatory, Limbo, Hell
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Jewish Encyclopedia: Purgatory, Sheol, Gehenna, Abbadon, DEATH - VIEWS AND CUSTOMS
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=611&letter=P&search=sheol
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=614&letter=S&search=sheol
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=112&letter=A&search=sheol
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=179&letter=D&search=sheol

religioustolerance.org: see links in the section "Related essays on this web site:"
Conservative Christian beliefs about Hell
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hell_eva.htm

[JackC]

My premise is yes, but as a one off event that lasts eternally (as opposed to eternally perpetuated).

My aim is to get an understanding of the various views held in the various Christian churches.

------------------------------------

I've just dumped a heap of pages concerning "Hell" from the CE, JE and elsewhere (see links below) that might be useful in the discussion. I've yet to wade through them ;-)
Ha!

I don't think we need to wade through a bunch of writings written by others who may or may not have a clue as to what they are writing about! I certainly do not wish to.

I know that I am presently living in Hell, or at least a world on the outskirts of the outer darkness.

One taste of God and there is no doubt that we are the wicked and have already been condemned according to His Law.

It is from these depths of darkness that Christ seeks to redeem us.

And why would anyone feel that the fires of purgation are somehow a bad thing?

God is a burning fire.


Jack

[alam]

Hello Apostoli,

It should be an interesting thread. Maybe it will help me clarify my thinking which has drifted from the JW teachings without taking any definite shape of its own.

The default view seems to be that the "torment" of hell consists of directly and literally applied tortures of the Apocalypse of Peter sort, but what if God simply allows the wicked to torment themselves?

In other words the torment of hell is not positive torment by God, but the withdrawal by Him of all His mercies which currently mute and mitigate the hell of wickedness within? Through such allowance the punishment could be ascribed to Him as indirect cause. For example the afflictions of Job are ascribed to God (Job 1:21; 2:3) although God only allowed Satan to afflict Job.


For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke.

Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. Hear, ye [that are] far off, what I have done; and, ye [that are] near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that [it is] an evil [thing] and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

In the last verse the Hebrew (and English) describe a corrective punishment, so probably nothing to do with the final judgment...although my abridgement of Liddell and Scott defines the word kolasis used in Matthew as "chastisement, correction, punishment." It seems to be derived from kolazō (dock, prune) in the sense of a corrective punishment, like you prune a tree not to destroy it but get it "into shape"..

The best,

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=apostoli]My premise is yes, but as a one off event that lasts eternally (as opposed to eternally perpetuated).

My aim is to get an understanding of the various views held in the various Christian churches.



Why should he do that? What has God to gain for us by placing us into an eternal pain amphlifier and leaving us there for trillions of untold billions of years and he himself be at peace with that? That is suggesting that God will co-exist with evil forever. In Revelations 21:4, it plainly states that there shall no longer be any death, crying, pain or mourning - certainly that describes some eternal hell, but the verse states that will pass away. The beliefs of men simply desire to prolong what God desires to eliminate. Men simply believe their own desires and try to pass them off as Gods desires. God is benefical, eternal punishment is not. God is kind, eternal punishment is not. God is fair, good greif, eternal pain is not.

Peace, Mickiel.

[alam]

That is suggesting that God will co-exist with evil forever. In Revelations 21:4, it plainly states that there shall no longer be any death, crying, pain or mourning - certainly that describes some eternal hell, but the verse states that will pass away.

Hi Mickiel,

This is a credible point. At an intuitive level the oneness of God who is absolutely Good suggests the final unification of creation in goodness, an intuition that is supported in such scripture as Revelation 21:4 and 1 Cor. 15:28. This is the very thing that has kept me from being convinced in eternal torment.

The beliefs of men simply desire to prolong what God desires to eliminate. Men simply believe their own desires and try to pass them off as Gods desires. God is benefical, eternal punishment is not. God is kind, eternal punishment is not. God is fair, good greif, eternal pain is not.




But it does seem to be taught in some passages of the Bible doesn't it? OUr natural desire is to want to take the edge off these statements, soften them somehow. I see that in myself at least--admittedly would rather believe in universalism or annihilation of the wicked than eternal torment. But we cannot expect to achieve an accurate understanding of the Bible by starting from the premise that if God did that He would be unjust and therefore there must be another interpretation. If eternal torment is true, then there is a good reason for it which perhaps we cannot understand yet, perhaps because of our sinfulness itself.


God bless

[Pythagoras]

Greetings apostoli,

May God bless you.


My premise is yes, but as a one off event that lasts eternally (as opposed to eternally perpetuated).

However scriptures like the following seem to support eternal perpetuation of punishment.



"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:43-48). Also see Isaiah 66:22-24.


Have you ever considered the possibility that it is impossible to "annihilate", or that annihilation infringes upon God's integrity, something Satan would like to see happen to secure ultimate victory?

[Pythagoras]

In other words the torment of hell is not positive torment by God, but the withdrawal by Him of all His mercies which currently mute and mitigate the hell of wickedness within? Through such allowance the punishment could be ascribed to Him as indirect cause. For example the afflictions of Job are ascribed to God (Job 1:21; 2:3) although God only allowed Satan to afflict Job.



The best,

I tend to agree....

[Bernie]

Pythagoras' use of Mark 9 is a good example of the elusiveness of the Bible's teaching on the subject of salvation: I think Scripture's primary meaning is esoteric in nature. The literal is used by Christ in His teachings to lead to the more powerful and significant universal truths and principles underlying the literal. Swedenborg and other early mystics (not to be confused with most modern mystics, who tend to have little respect for or belief in the power and authority of Scripture) saw this truth, that the Bible was a book of correspondences.

In its strongest [esoteric] sense, the eternality of destruction for sin is enacted in the realm of universals, not particulars. In other words, God preserves the individual (the particular person) by enacting His righteous vengence upon each individual's constituent components, or each person's evil. For example, in proper esoteric fashion, the goats and sheep of Mat 25 (and wheat and tares of Mat 13) speak not to individual people, as the literal interpretation of the Bible only allows, but to the components of good and evil within each person. Once you get past this rigid literalist stumbling block, it's not that hard to see, and it's quite rational. It's all a matter of combining philosophical and theological dualisms to arrive at a rational, esoteric interpretation, which also happens to be epistemically sound. Old stuff, really, just looking at it with a little different slant.

God destroys evil. This is primarily a spiritual function, though the spiritual has a natural relation to the individual (we die physically for our sin, as a result, I think, of dying spiritually), just as particular has a relation to universal. We're being saved from our inherent evil, a bit at a time, so that the individual is restored to perfection....Christian, atheist, Hindu, etc. alike, as I see it.

[apostoli]

Alam, Pythagoras & All,

My niece's husband has had a heart attack, so I will be away for about a week or so trying to help her out. So, I'd appreciate it, if you guys would keep this discussion going until I get back.

The Jewish Encyclopedia discussion on Purgatory is worth a read (see links in Post #1). Seems the early Rabbis debated whether everyone went there for either 7 days or a year.

Another of the JE articles (see links in Post #1) may shed some light on the story of Lazarus and the Rich man. Seems there was a Jewish thought that shoel (KJV hell) is divided into sections. Abraham is in one and (if I recall correctly) intercedes for the dead.

This link might add some fuel for discussion - L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 5
http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html

Thanks and all the best.

[alam]

Alam, Pythagoras & All,

My niece's husband has had a heart attack, so I will be away for about a week or so trying to help her out. So, I'd appreciate it, if you guys would keep this discussion going until I get back.


Apostoli, you and your family are in our prayers. God bless.

[Pythagoras]

Apostoli, you and your family are in our prayers. God bless.

Indeed.

[.Mr.White.Socks]

For example, in proper esoteric fashion, the goats and sheep of Mat 25 (and wheat and tares of Mat 13) speak not to individual people, as the literal interpretation of the Bible only allows, but to the components of good and evil within each person.

Thank you for sharing this.

Maverick

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=alam]Hi Mickiel,





But it does seem to be taught in some passages of the Bible doesn't it? OUr natural desire is to want to take the edge off these statements, soften them somehow. I see that in myself at least--admittedly would rather believe in universalism or annihilation of the wicked than eternal torment. But we cannot expect to achieve an accurate understanding of the Bible by starting from the premise that if God did that He would be unjust and therefore there must be another interpretation. If eternal torment is true, then there is a good reason for it which perhaps we cannot understand yet, perhaps because of our sinfulness itself.




Agreed. I think there is a lake of fire, which many interpit to be hell. I think it highly possible that we misinterpit this lake, its purpose, and its destiny. Many of those I study with are beginning to view the lake in an entirely different vein, that of temporary punishment and stirlization. Everything that God does, even his punishments , are always theriputic in nature and purpose.

Peace, Mickiel.]

[Ken1Burton]

Apostoli.

Why would your aim be to get an understanding of the various views held by the Christian churches? Why not look for the Truth of the Matter FIRST? Then look at different Church Doctrines to see where the others are coming from, and aid them in seeing the Truth.

Is there also an Assumption? That one of their doctrines is right?

Remember? WE ALL AS SHEEP have gone astray.

Who are the SHEEP? The Good or the Wicked?

(JEREMIAH 12:1) Righteous art thou, O Lord, when I plead with thee:
yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way
of the wicked prosper? wherefore are all they happy that deal very
treacherously? (KJV)

Jeremiah want a LITTLE TALK with God, WHY? Are the Wicked Happy? Could it be that Jesus as seen in Job 33:26 just rendered to man HIS Righteousness?

(JOB 33:26) He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto
him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto
man his righteousness. (KJV)

With the Righteousness of Christ coming on say a “Wicked Sheep” Then what Jesus did, Would be credited to them. They would have fed the Hungry, Clothed the Naked, Visited the Sick and in Prison. BUT they would not REMEMBER they ever did that:

(MATTHEW 25:37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord,
when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave
thee drink? (KJV)
(MATTHEW 25:38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or
naked, and clothed thee? (KJV)

The Sheep enter the Kingdom prepared for them from the Foundation of the World. Which Foundation is located in a place called Golgotha.

(REVELATION 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship
him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

(JOB 38:4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the
earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (KJV)

The Question in Job 38:4 is for Jesus, a GOOD GUESS would be hanging on a cross outside Jerusalem. Make that the Right answer, it is not a guess.

(JOB 38:17) Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast
thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? (KJV)

(JOB 38:21) Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or
because the number of thy days is great? (KJV)

The BODY of Christ with us in that Body is BORN the day of the cross:

(PSALMS 2:6) Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. (KJV)
(PSALMS 2:7) I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me,
Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee. (KJV)

Now for the GOATS:

Zechariah 10:3/6 shows God used the Goats as His battle Horse. Then they would be as if they had not cast them off.

By the Grace of God, all mankind is saved. Hell ended the third day, Those in hell left with Jesus, Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, The day of the cross was as 1,000 years, the Rest of the Dead lived not again till the 1,000 years was over, that was on the Second day when He revived them.

(HOSEA 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he
will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. (KJV)

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I
have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 26:19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body
shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy
dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (KJV)

(PSALMS 7:9) Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end;
but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and
reins. (KJV)

With their WICKEDNESS GONE, And the Righteousness of Christ on them, they are saved by grace.


Alam.

Isaiah 9:18. “They shall mount up like the lifting up of Smoke.”

The Book of Revelation is looking at the day of the cross as seven time periods, the day seen as a week in Isaiah 30:26. made as three pictures. first as 4 6-hour periods, seen as 4 beasts with 6-wings, Second as 2 12-hour periods seen as 2 witnesses, Third as 1 24-hour period seen as 24 Elders.

So when the Bottomless pit is opened SMOKE comes out of the PIT. That is those in hell Mounting up and leaving with Christ (Zechariah 9:11)

Ever see a BOTTOMLESS PIT? You would see a person of China looking down the other end of a hole at you. Or else you would see a grain of Corn which fell into the earth and died, Make that a PEACH PIT. When the Bottomless pit is opened, Called SPROUTS. Now you have the SIDES of the PIT.

(JOHN 12:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat
fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it
bringeth forth much fruit. (KJV)

The parable of making the Tree Evil or Good, all parables are for the day of the cross. Jesus WILLINGLY took sin upon Himself. He made the Tree Evil. That Got Him the keys to death and hell He needed to get there. Then He bore Evil Fruit, or got them all OUT.

The Second picture for the day of the cross looks at Jesus in hell, Like the Second physical day, the Fifth angel is the first 12 hours of that picture.

(REVELATION 9:1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall
from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the
bottomless pit. (KJV)
(REVELATION 9:2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose
a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the
sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. (KJV)

(REVELATION 9:3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the
earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth
have power. (KJV)

One of the powers the Scorpions of the Earth has is LIFE.

NOW for the Locust:

(NAHUM 3:15) There shall the fire devour thee; the sword shall cut
thee off, it shall eat thee up like the cankerworm: make thyself
many as the cankerworm, make thyself many as the locusts. (KJV)

Jesus becomes many as the Locusts. They lift up like Smoke. And out of hell they came.

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I
have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 26:19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body
shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy
dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (KJV)


Isaiah 33:14 ended with a Question. “Who among us shall dwell with the Devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with Everlasting burnings?” The Answer is BEAUTIFUL and in the next verse:

(ISAIAH 33:15) He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly;
he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands
from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of
blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; (KJV)

God word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29, and Dwelling with Christ is BEAUTIFUL. Everlasting Beautiful.


Pythagoras.

“THEIR WORM LIVED”, He died not, He lived right through going to hell FOR US.

(JOB 25:6) How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man,
which is a worm? (KJV)

The day of the cross is all the Sevens in Revelation, made as a week in Isaiah 30:26. Only the day of the cross fits Isaiah 30:26, When God heals His people. It is all the Sevens in Revelation. The Lamb has Seven eyes. The first picture is as 4 6-hour periods, But when they are fulfilled, it goes back to ONE day. Or One EYE, to be cast into hell. as Jesus has to go into hell and be there the Second day.

The Fourth seal is noon to sunset, the Pale Horse, death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell. So the day is made as seven days, and the days are SHORTENED also. Jesus seen as underground, but also seen as alive, So God likened Him to a Worm which dieth not.

The First picture as 4 6-hour periods seen as Idols, They are cast to the Bats and moles, or critters who make their home Underground.

(ISAIAH 2:20) In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and
his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship,
to the moles and to the bats; (KJV)


“IN THAT DAY” and all prophecies are for the day of the cross. The day seen as 7 times is as SILVER tried in the Fire 7 times. The day as three pictures is as GOLD, the Streets are paved with GOLD because it is seen in the three pictures.

(ISAIAH 51:23) But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict
thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over:
and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to
them that went over. (KJV)

First picture Jesus is a Street to the Living, Second picture Jesus is a Street to the dead, Third Picture Jesus is a Street to Heaven.

All of God’s words through the prophets are coming to pass the day of the cross, So the STREET has to be REBUILT as the Second and third picture is formed.


Mickiel.

Jeremiah 23:29 “Is not My Word like as a Fire, saith the Lord.” To be immersed in God’s word is as Baptized with Fire. or cast into the Lake of fire. Death and hell are cast into or fulfilled in God’s word. Those not found written in the Lamb’s book of life are cast into the Lake of fire, or are already covered by God’s word and grace even though they have YET to be conceived. They will be written in when they are conceived.

We all have fallen short: We all have nothing we can repay God with.

(LUKE 7:42) And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave
them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? (KJV)
(LUKE 7:43) Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he
forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. (KJV)

You really want to see what Hell is? It is how God would feel if He lost even one of us.

(PSALMS 139:8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I
make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (KJV)

Hell seen as making a bed in because it was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin. Like Jonah, three days and three nights. which is one day seen as three pictures. like Jonah, a Similitude. Nineveh is a City of three days Journey, Jonah entered one days journey.

The day of the cross seen as 3 pictures, 1=anger, 2=fury, 3=wrath, So Jonah is GOOD to be Angry unto death, Gourd seen as Death.(2-Kings 4:39/40) Shadow of death is pleasant to Jesus after all the Suffering, Jesus as a Worm (Job 25:6) smites the Gourd or ends death. Weeds wrapped around Jonah’s head is the Crown of thorns for Jesus.


(ISAIAH 28:20) For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch
himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap
himself in it. (KJV)

So making His bed in hell is a bit short, Like three pictures of one day, seen as three days and three nights in the Belly of a whale. A penny is one days wages:

(REVELATION 6:6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four
beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of
barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (KJV)

Seeing the day of the cross as one day (wheat) or as three pictures (Barley)

Ken

[Augusta]

I would think those who reject and want nothing to do with God would greatly prefer an eternal separation from God. Even if it means they will experience torments. Maybe, in the end, God is giving individuals exactly what they want and those in hell will be grateful that they are there (as opposed to the alternative).

Just occurred to me. . . could one of the "torments" for some be the fact that they can no longer hurt the people who love God?

[Ken1Burton]

Agusta.

Just occurred to Me? Has it occurred to you, Them not being with the ones who love them and also Love God would also hurt those in Heaven?

No problem though, all go to Heaven, all saved by grace. Jesus rendered to mankind His righteousness as Job 33:26 shows. Making an end of sin, and bringing in Everlasting righteousness as Daniel 9:24 showed He would. The Seal in Daniel kept the Disciples and Paul from seeing sin ended as Accountable unto man, and I guess the Seal kept you from seeing the Love of God for mankind also.

GOD Does not desire to be Separated from them, no matter how they feel about it. Like our Little Children, They might get mad and want to leave, But we keep them anyway. God’s love is far greater then we can even imagine.

Hell ended the third day, all go to heaven, there is no option about that. Those out of hell are by the gates to tell of the love and mercy of God. They were in a sleep till Jesus died for sin, all left with Jesus.

(ISAIAH 26:19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body
shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy
dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (KJV)

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I
have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

When Jesus said “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.” Rejecting God was part of that.

And when you know there is a God, and He takes a love one away from you. You hurt. You know God could have prevented it, You know God could have prevented the Huricanes, Ect. So people get mad at God. That does not mean He has to take it personal.


Ken

[Augusta]

Hi Ken. My post was meant not as a response directed to you but rather a couple of thoughts I had on the main post topic. Your comments are quite interesting and I'll take another look at some of your earlier posts on the subject to get clarification. I am quickly finding here at Tweb there are many opinions on nearly every topic within our christian world view, even more than I previously thought. And I appreciate your opinion on this topic.

To address the emotional/feeling side of the issue (which you kind of asked me about). . it is hard for me to imagine God forcing a person who does not love him and does not want to be with him to exist in his close presence forever. And God would truly know what that person really wants, i.e., the difference between a person who is upset and angry and curses God because a loved one died, and a person who unequivocally wants nothing to do with God. I hope that nobody goes to hell, but at this point don't see--with certainty--that being the case.

[Bernie]

Ken1Burton, are you John of goodnewsinc? Your posts are very similar to his, quoting lots of scripture with little or no explanation....

[Bernie]

Augusta,

You said,
"I hope that nobody goes to hell, but at this point don't see--with certainty--that being the case."

Those same "all" who will be saved are also "all" going to hell. Quit thinking in terms of particulars (as in individual human beings) and think in terms of attributes or universals, where "the good" and "the evil" are no people but components within every human being. God's decrees for both mercy and destruction are dedicated to these components within each person.

[Augusta]

Augusta,

You said,


Those same "all" who will be saved are also "all" going to hell. Quit thinking in terms of particulars (as in individual human beings) and think in terms of attributes or universals, where "the good" and "the evil" are no people but components within every human being. God's decrees for both mercy and destruction are dedicated to these components within each person.

Thanks, Bernie. Honestly, I had not heard that viewpoint before (not surprising, as I'm a new christian). Anyone else like to comment. . . do you think it fits / doesn't fit with the whole of scripture?

[Bernie]

Hi Augusta,

To be honest with you, I have what is usually considered an unorthodox view of Scripture, though it's actually grounded quite firmly in the orthodoxy of the scholastics, my favorite being Aquinas and his intuitive translation of Aristotle's wisdom into a Christian framework.

This view works remarkably well with all the Bible, both Testaments. The Bible is primarily a spriitual book, and its deeper truths are hidden. Not hidden so one can't see them at all, but hidden especially from those [and from those elements wtihin each of us] who pretend to love truth and embrace Scripture as a tool to promote a personal theology. I contend for a Rational Esotericism which applies God's dualistic framework to Scripture as a means of seeing some measure of the esoteric sense of the Bible.

For example, Ezekiel, by the Holy Spirit, prophecied, "and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am against you; and I shall draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Because I shall cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore My sword shall go forth from its sheath against all flesh from south to north. Thus all flesh will know that I, the LORD, have drawn My sword out of its sheath. It will not return to its sheath again."‘ (Ezek 21:3-5)

The literal says this means some people get the axe, and some not. But this common theme in both Testaments (sheep and goats of Mat 25, wheat and tares of Mat 13, branches of the vine, some pruned and some burned in the fire in Jn 15, etc.) transcends the literal and particular to finger a much broader truth about salvation and humanity's relationship with the living God, pointing to components of good and evil within each human. Some don't care for this interpretive scheme--regardless of its relationship to truth--because it leads to conclusions many Christians are still uncomfortable with, I think.

Give it some thought. Testing different ideas is a good thing.

[Ken1Burton]

Ezekiel 21:3/5 is a Prophecy, all prophecies are for the day of the cross.

First God cuts off the Righteous. God pours out His Spirit (Jesus) upon all flesh, So we have all together become as an unclean thing, There is none righteous, No not one. No innocent babies, None righteousness because they are unable to reason, all ONE BODY, All guilty because of sin.

Then God cuts off the Wicked. (Wicked is turned into hell) so we are all dead in Christ or as in Hell. Then With His Stripes we are healed. So the Wicked are cut off as Jesus paid for all past and present sins then.

The third seal is the Black Horse with Balances, Sunrise to noon. the time Jesus is Judged. We are healed by His stripes. But “You are weighed in the Balance and found wanting.”

Jesus has healed the living as of then. But He wants to get the others out of hell which had died before. and He has to get there to do it to fulfill Zechariah 9:11 Jesus has to get Himself into Hell.

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I
have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

In order to get into hell, or get the keys to death and hell you HAVE to die a Sinner. Slight problem, Jesus just paid for all past and present sins. So Jesus takes FUTURE sins to Golgotha. or “While we were yet sinners (still being humans who would fail) Christ died for us.”

Under the law in Deuteronomy 24:16 every man would be put to death for His OWN SIN, So future sins belong to Jesus, and Ended at Calvary.

Fulfilling Daniel 9:24's making an end of sin, and bringing in everlasting righteousness. Daniel 9:24 has a SEAL which kept the Disciples and Paul, and most everyone else from seeing sin ended as Accountable unto mankind.

(DANIEL 9:24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon
thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of
sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in
everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy. (KJV)

The Seventy weeks is a diversion, Jesus had to fulfill every thing written by the prophets concerning Him when He went up to Jerusalem. Daniel also had a vision of an Evening and Morning which was for Many days, In Daniel’s eyes it was 70 weeks.

(LUKE 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them,
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by
the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (KJV)
The first 6-hours from Sunset to Midnight is as Alive, Midnight Jesus takes sin, the Second 6-hours is as Spiritually dead or as in Hell, Second physical day with Jesus in Hell is a Future similitude for what was fulfilled the day of the cross. The day made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26.

The Third 6-hour period from Sunrise to noon, “With His stripes we are healed.” or Resurrected from being spiritually dead, to Spiritually alive. The third physical day is a Future similitude for what was fulfilled already the day of the cross. Resurrected to Life.

All those out of hell left with Jesus, they are now at Heaven’s gate speaking to those who do not want to enter, Seen as Rebekah’s children, Speaking to the enemies in the gate. Speaking of the Love and Mercy of God, Hell was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, Hell ceased to exist on the third day.

(GENESIS 24:60) And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou
art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and
let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them. (KJV)

By taking any prophecy, and seeing it has to be fulfilled when Jesus went up to Jerusalem give insight to God fulfilling His Words, or the SWORD.

The Sword is also a keyword. Giving a hint to where to place the prophecies. The Sword is the Second 6-hour period seen as the second day. But with the day as 3 pictures, the Second day there is as 2 12-hour periods. that is the TWO EDGE Sword.

The first picture as 4 6-hour periods, as 4 beasts with 6-wings, the Second as 2 12-hour periods as 2 witnesses, the third as 1 24-hour period as 24 Elders.

The Second picture is also as the HEART. Jesus in the Heart of the Earth, Seen as 2 12-hour periods, BOTH is as the WHOLE HEART.

Jesus goes into hell, then “You shall seek Me, and Find Me, When You search for Me with Your WHOLE HEART. Or when Jesus has them all with Him.

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I
have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.(KJV)

Jesus had the power to take up His life again, But COULD NOT USE IT. He had to Wait on the Lord so He would be there with them to fulfill Zechariah 9:11. This is end times, Jesus sits as a sparrow on the Housetop on the Cross. “Let Not Him on th ehousetop come down to take anything out of His House.” as the Priests say “Let Christ the King now come down that we might see and Believe.” Jesus has to stay on the cross till death.

Let Him in the Field, Not return to take up His clothes, Jesus is in the Sepulchre, in a Garden or Field, He does not have clothes, Jesus the Linen cloth and the Napkin. He is to stay in the Sepulchre till the third day.

Every jot and tillte fulfilled the day of the cross, When all prophecies, Similitudes, Visions, Dreams, and the law is Fulfilled, Given over to serve the gods of wood and stone is a Cross and a Sepulchre.

Ken

[mickiel]

There is no religion that explains hell and eternal punishment to my acceptance, nor do they explain God. Since God does not explain himself, then my life is just now what it has always been, I understand nothing of God or hell. I have lived in hell all my life and have seen nothing but hell and suffering throughout human history. Why would a living God of wisdom and grace, place any human in some perpectual pain after they haved lived in misery all their human days? Religons that teach eternal punishment are just as mad as most religous concepts.

[Ken1Burton]

Mickiel.

Your in hell now? You have seen nothing but hell and Suffering? You are living every day in Misery?

I have seen a lot of people physically Suffering, Mentally Suffering. Some beyond what I could image, and many of them are happy.

You disabled? You in physical pain which can not be helped?

Or are you angry because God does not show you, He loves you?

Third person is used a lot. Why does God allow such things to people, when they are feeling “Why does God allow such things to me?”

We are all saved by grace, We do not need to do anything. It has come upon the Whole Human race. Even the really nasty people in this world. Jesus paid it all.

Ken

[mickiel]

[
You disabled? You in physical pain which can not be helped?

Or are you angry because God does not show you, He loves you?

Third person is used a lot. Why does God allow such things to people, when they are feeling “Why does God allow such things to me?”

We are all saved by grace, We do not need to do anything. It has come upon the Whole Human race. Even the really nasty people in this world. Jesus paid it all.

Ken[/QUOTE]





I am not disabled and in no physical pain whatsoever. I am angry that God has not done for me what much of the bible says he will do. I want him to reveal himself to me. Strengthen me, give me his Spirit, teach me his truth, change me from this ugly human nature and clean my mind from religous confusion. He has done none of this in any fashion that can help my mind. That will naturally make one feel like a dog, confused and neglected.

[Bernie]

Hello Mickiel,

"I am angry that God has not done for me what much of the bible says he will do. I want him to reveal himself to me. Strengthen me, give me his Spirit, teach me his truth, change me from this ugly human nature and clean my mind from religous confusion. He has done none of this in any fashion that can help my mind."

Count your blessings. Think about it for a moment...why are we all in such darkness? There are rays of light hither and yon today as it has been down through history, but God has always remained largely hidden. Why? Because in our present fallen state we're largely [spiritually] tinder to His pure, true Information, which is naturally a roaring fire to our filthiness. We're promised the things you wish for in due time, on that day we're given the crown of righteousness and white robes (being restored to Adam's original state of perfection or a perfect, true informational structure) and can come into His courts without fear of being roasted by His purity...as portrayed in type by Daniel's friends in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace.)

Paul, who suffered much for Christ, knew what he was talking about when he penned, "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb 10:31) To be regenerated to a state of illumination, where one has actual communion with truth from a darkened state, is a painful, affliction-filled process. Death naturally preceeds life (Jn 12:24). Are you willing to pay the price for your desire in this life? Be patient...it'll come in an instant for the believer when Christ comes for us.

[Ken1Burton]

Mickiel.

I thought that might be the case. Good, You have one of the hard lessons overcome. It is alright to get Angry with God. Part of a true relationship with another is allowing the other’s anger, and not having it effect your love for one another.

You love God, But you feel pushed away. That He will not let you close enough.

Now use that anger. Tell Him flat out, Your staying. Tell Him to push you away all He wants. You will keep coming.

When we see in our heart we love God and there is nothing we can do about it. Go for Him, Let nothing stop your loving Him. Even Him. He wants to act angry, No problem, He has to deal with that. We might not like Him at times, But our love will always be for God.

He keeps pushing you away to keep you wanting to be close. Till there is nothing that He or anyone else can say or do that will keep you away. Nothing that will turn you left or right. Your direction is fixed. Straight to God.

Would you be this determined, If He had not kept you feeling as pushed away?

One of the main lessons. He has us feel as cast out when He sees there is a reason we believe He will reject us. So He keeps us away till we know there is NOTHING that will separate us from Him.

God loves you, You can die as you are killing people and it will not stop God’s love for you one tiny bit. You can deny God, Curse God, but you can not stop His love for you.

You want His Truth. Start with His Lying Spirit.

(1KINGS 22:23) Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying
spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath
spoken evil concerning thee. (KJV)

The Similitude is He wants King Ahab to go up and die in Battle, which is really He wants Jesus to go to Calvary to die and fulfill all the prophecies and change them from lies, which is a prophecy before it is fulfilled, To Truth which is all prophecies when they were fulfilled the day of the cross.

(LUKE 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them,
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by
the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (KJV)

Jesus blinded the Disciples as in a Sleep. They did not see Daniel 9:24 being fulfilled, He made an end of sins, and brought in everlasting righteousness. The SEAL in Daniel 9:24 kept them from seeing.

The day of the cross is as Heaven, the day is made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26. as the days of Heaven. Seeing what is there, is looking in the Windows of Heaven. The Churches have almost NOTHING. God offers us Everything to be seen. Here is the requirement:

(MALACHI 3:10) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that
there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith
the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven,
and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to
receive it. (KJV)

God speaks in Similitudes. This is to see all mankind is saved by Grace, all are in Christ, Believer and non-believer. Good and Bad (Jesus took away all sin as accountable unto mankind)
Get them all in,

DO NOT leave the Devil outside. Drag Him in with you. What ever name you want to use. Satan, the Serpent, Lucifer, Get them all in the House. See a Loving God, And when you see a Loving God. He will open those windows of Heaven. and you will be able to receive, for you will Know He loves everyone.

Love your Enemy, You think the Devil is your enemy, Love Him. Pray for Him. Seek God’s mercy for Him also. And you never know what God might show you:

(MATTHEW 12:22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a
devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind
and dumb both spake and saw. (KJV)

(EXODUS 4:11) And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's
mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the
blind? have not I the Lord? (KJV)

STRENGTH is seeing the day of the cross as 3 pictures, Each strengthens the other, Like a three fold cord that is hard to break.

First as 4 6-hour periods as 4 beasts with 6-wings
Second as 2 12-hour periods as 2 witnesses
Third as 1 24-hour period as 24 Elders.

You still kicking His door in?

Ken

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Bernie]Hello Mickiel,



Count your blessings. Think about it for a moment...why are we all in such darkness? There are rays of light hither and yon today as it has been down through history, but God has always remained largely hidden. Why? Because in our present fallen state we're largely [spiritually] tinder to His pure, true Information, which is naturally a roaring fire to our filthiness. We're promised the things you wish for in due time, on that day we're given the crown of righteousness and white robes (being restored to Adam's original state of perfection or a perfect, true informational structure) and can come into His courts without fear of being roasted by His purity...as portrayed in type by Daniel's friends in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace.)





I can understand some of what you wrote, and I agree, but I dissagree that Adam was created perfect, he was not, neither physically or spiritually. If you believe he was, can you explain to me why you believe as such and give the evidence that led you to this belief?

Peace, Mickiel.

[mickiel]

Mickiel.

I thought that might be the case. Good, You have one of the hard lessons overcome. It is alright to get Angry with God. Part of a true relationship with another is allowing the other’s anger, and not having it effect your love for one another.

You love God, But you feel pushed away. That He will not let you close enough.

You still kicking His door in?

Ken



I understand what you mean, and I have not stopped persuing God, though I times I feel as such. I have left traditional views of God because they did me no good and I lost belief in them anyhow. The universalistic views I now believe are so far from tradition, that I need a great faith to believe such a great difference, I have not been given that. But my distaste for common theology will not go away. So I exist in an unstable reality, knowing only God can release me. I have no fellowship with common traditional believers, nor with universalist, so I basically walk alone.

Peace, Mickiel.

[Ken1Burton]

Mickiel.

Alone is the best place to find God. I think He is a bit shy.

God cups His hands over us, and in a sweeping motion with the back of His hands, He pushes everyone else away. One on One. The way God works best.

It is very hard to fellowship with God and with a denomination at the same time. Almost impossible. Walking alone is no problem with an Omni-Present God.

The Churches main point, Is be Good, and God will love you. Then belief, repentance and other requirements are added to shore up their concepts in case they are not quite right. Cover all the bases.

God takes you the first day to the Heat of the Battle. Thousands of believers fighting against every evil they can think of. He places you in the very front, and tells all the others to go Home.

For the Battle was never against Evil, God conquered that by Jesus taking away the sin of the world. The Battle is to get people to really want to Know God. And that is God as He really is, Not as others have said He is. Search out every jot and tittle.

Jesus has to fulfill all the Old Testament prophecies, He did not have to fulfill what Peter or Paul thought He did, He did have to fulfill Daniel, and Jeremiah, and Isaiah. And He had to fulfill them all the day of the cross.

(LUKE 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them,
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by
the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (KJV)


A lot of the Church is waiting to be Raptured. Cute trick seeing they are 1976 years too late, They all left with Jesus. Now it is Absent from the Body, Present with the Lord.

(ISAIAH 26:19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body
shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy
dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (KJV)

Jesus had to fulfill Hosea on the day of the cross.

(HOSEA 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he
will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. (KJV)

And Jesus had to leave hell with all those there as Zechariah said, all for the day of the cross:

(ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I
have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

God is with you, Take notes as He shows you things, and share them and He will give you more. And even if no one else sees it. He has showed it to you. And as soon as you share it, He will add the increase and you will know more of each concept.

He will send arguers, So you search for a better way to answer, that also works for Good.

Ken

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Ken1Burton]Mickiel.

Alone is the best place to find God. I think He is a bit shy


I understand, but I don't view God as shy, which connotates too many possible negative characther flaws. I think God intentionally keeps himself hidden, and I have read that in scripture.








It is very hard to fellowship with God and with a denomination at the same time. Almost impossible. Walking alone is no problem with an Omni-Present God.



I agree with this totally.





.

For the Battle was never against Evil, God conquered that by Jesus taking away the sin of the world. The Battle is to get people to really want to Know God. And that is God as He really is, Not as others have said He is. Search out every jot and tittle.


I agree.



He will send arguers, So you search for a better way to answer, that also works for Good.


I don't think God needs to send people to argue with others, that is nonsensical. I understand the other things you have written, I also understand the majority of people who claim to understand God, understand nothing. And I make no claims to understand him. I do not know God. I do not know Jesus. I would like too, but I do not. And I want his Spirit to teach me itself, not plastic self righteous people. But this has not happened.

I do not know what the future holds for me, but as of now, I don't have a clue about God, I can only say what I believe, and if what I believe is inspired by God or not, I have no ideal.

Peace, Mickiel.



]

[Ken1Burton]

Mickiel.

You do see that God hides Himself:

(ISAIAH 45:15) Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of
Israel, the Saviour. (KJV)

But do you see He had to Hide Himself from Jesus? Jesus had to go into hell to fulfill the Scriptures. So God had to Hide His Face from Jesus.

(PSALMS 143:7) Hear me speedily, O Lord: my spirit faileth: hide
not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into
the pit. (KJV)

Hiding His Face from Jesus is also Jesus not knowing God, Or God in one form.

NONE is a name for Jesus, None declareth, None showeth, When I called, None die answer, There is none beside Me. None can by any means redeem His brother.

Then God added a SURNAME to NONE:

(ISAIAH 45:4) For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect,
I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though
thou hast not known me. (KJV)
(ISAIAH 45:5) I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no
God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (KJV)
(ISAIAH 45:6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and
from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and
there is none else. (KJV)

(DEUTERONOMY 4:39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in
thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the
earth beneath: there is none else. (KJV)

Jesus was carried by the Spirit into the Wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. Jesus does not know WHO the Devil is. And He has to do all three of the things asked.

Command the Stones to be made bread is to fulfill all the prophecies.

Cast yourself down, is to allow the 144 with Jesus, seen as a wall, seen as Angels in Revelation 21:!7 to take You, Afflict You, and in their hands, Bear Thee up upon a Cross.

Fall down and Worship Me is to Allow your self to Die. When Jesus does, then all the Kingdoms of the world are given unto Jesus.

His Father is the One Asking.

The Wilderness is a House built the day of the cross. Then Jesus is given 42 Months to Continue, and Not knowing it was His Father speaking:

(REVELATION 13:5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking
great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to
continue forty and two months. (KJV)
(REVELATION 13:6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God,
to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in
heaven. (KJV)

The Name Devil means the Living God. So when Jesus told the Jews in John 8:44 “Ye are of your Father the Devil, What He was really saying, Not knowing it, was “Ye are Sons of the Living God.

(HOSEA 1:10) Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as
the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it
shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them,
Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the
sons of the living God. (KJV)

(PSALMS 99:3) Let them praise thy great and terrible name; for it
is holy. (KJV)

(LUKE 10:20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits
are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are
written in heaven. (KJV)
(LUKE 10:21) In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I
thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid
these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto
babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. (KJV)

The Words which Jesus spoke, God gave Him to speak, So Jesus may see these words as meaning something different.


Ken

[mickiel]

[QUOTE=Ken1Burton]Mickiel.

You do see that God hides Himself:

(ISAIAH 45:15) Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of
Israel, the Saviour. (KJV)

But do you see He had to Hide Himself from Jesus? Jesus had to go into hell to fulfill the Scriptures. So God had to Hide His Face from Jesus.



I wouldnot agree that God hid himself from Jesus, and have my doubts about Jesus going into hell for anything. Jesus told us that he would never leave us or forsake us, why would God the Father treat him any different than he treats us? Jesus just felt like God forsook him because he was life itself, dying. Life itself was loosing life, that is a tramatic experience for Christ and no time for God to forsake him. I disagree with the teaching that God forsook him.