Repentance: the One Essential Thing

[davidmichaels]

Being new to Theology Web, I was not sure where to start this thread. I would like the discussion to be opened up to any who are interested, no matter how their beliefs are defined, because I feel this is the One Essential Thing not only for all followers of Jesus, but for all of mankind.

Given the increase in frequency and intensity of the disasters occurring in our world, it is pretty obvious that we are in the end times. And though the message that God has most often delivered to us is Repentence, this essential thing seems to be lacking when looking around the message boards here.

If I may start the discussion with the following and invite anyone to join in who has a thought to share.

Before a man is sincerely able to enter into the place of true Repentance, with his heart turned solely towards God, he must first seriously consider the state of his own Soul. How at present it is wholly and altogether turned away from God, having become faithless to Him, bent instead upon this temporary and frail earthly life of material possessions and temporal appearances and pleasures. And in bearing no true or sincere love towards God or its fellow human beings; he walks in the ways of selfish ignorance, contrary to the Laws and the ways of God, seeking only to fulfill himself through the temporal and transitory lusts and desires of the lower self nature (flesh).

He should consider deeply how his very life in this world of separation and death is in utter enmity against God. He should also consider how lucifer and his dark brotherhood have made a home in him through his ill and selfish choices, leading his own Soul and the greater Soul of humanity further into ignorance, darkness, entropy and spiritual death, becoming bound and trapped in a fallen world where suffering and death are the norm.

He should likewise consider the many chains and bindings that restrain his Soul during its life on earth. And of the desire that lucifer has against his Soul, whereby he continually tempts it away from God without respite, striving to throw it from Truth and from the Path of return to God, down into his own evil and vile nature of darkness, selfishness and anger; while seeking to enkindle in his Soul this evil nature, causing it to turn away from God’s Light, Freedom and Truth, thus entering ever more deeply into the darkness and density of the temporal world of self and separation from God.

Here, the Soul is bound to the corrupt and altogether vain, mortal flesh and blood, filled with its desires and inclinations towards its lower self nature. And so a man must, in order to repent, understand how it is that his Soul lays prisoner in the mire of sinful filth within the darkness and ignorance of self; wherein desire burns within his Soul and lights up his body with naught but the urges of self satisfaction. He must come to see in the light of all honesty how it is that he has become a loathsome creature, having spent and consumed his Father's Inheritance, namely, the precious Love and Mercy of God, with the fatted swine of earthly pleasures, through not staying True to that which God has put into his heart.

He must also consider that he has all but totally forgotten that he had promised to be Faithful and True to God, and instead he has wholly defiled and obscured His Righteousness with sin, so now he stands before the Face of God as a dirty, ragged, and patched keeper of swine, that has continually eaten the husks of selfishness and greed and is no longer worthy to be called a Son of the Father and Member of the body of Christ.

He should earnestly consider that judgment of his unrepentant nature, according to Law, awaits him every hour and moment, and will lay hold on him in his sins, his ragged clothing, further binding him to the outer darkness of separation as a liar and thief, a breaker of faith, who justly deserves his dark imprisonment.

He should consider that these are the end times, as prophesized, and that the approaching Day of Judgment draws ever nigh to this world and its humanity, and that its arrival will cause his heart and the heart of all to be laid bare and naked before God and is holy Angels, revealing his trespasses and error before the Lord and His Righteous Ones. All those whom he has offended or injured by thought, word, or deed, and caused to do evil, (for by his instigation they also have trespassed against their brother), will know justice in condemnation according to Law before all Men and all Angels alike, and the entire Body of Christ. That there he will stand in his shame and guilt, continuing in fear and separation to the bitter end; and that it will grieve him to the depths of his Soul to realize how he has fooled away the glorious and eternal state of Salvation and Happiness (which has been offered to him) in favour of his self seeking ways and the sensory pleasure found in so short a life here on earth.


David

[Provoker]

Hello David:
That was quite a sermon...LOL
As I understand it, the word "repent" is a secular word which simply means to change one's mind, and in the context of the bible story, it refers to the backslidden lost sheep of Israel(the Jews), changing their minds about the coming kingdom.
The Jews learned, and taught, about the coming kingdom, but they had lost faith in the message, sometime after they returned from Babylon to Judea.
John the baptist, and Jesus, were simply re-proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, which the prophet proclaimed over 500 years before; that the messiah was actually coming to resurrect the Davidic kingdom.
Repentance was the changing of their minds, from seeing the coming kingdom as a religious myth, to seeing it as the true goal of Judaism after the messianic prophecy was made.
Since the resurrection of the kingdom will be the resurrection of covenant Israel, it will be a return to God's favour, because remember, when covenant Israel ceased to exist, it no longer kept God's laws, and could not repent because of the national division, and God was obliged, by the terms of the everlasting(old) covenant, to turn His face away from Israel, and by the same terms of the old covenant, He cannot turn His face back to Israel until Israel exists again as a covenant nation.
Once enough people repent(change their minds and accept the gospel of the kingdom), to be viable as a sovereign nation, the messiah can come and lead spiritual Israel to the resurrection of literal, covenant Israel, and the Davidic kingdom.
Of course, if one has the kingdom of Israel in his heart and mind, he will certainly have it in his heart to love God, and love his neighbour...What do you think?

[Zxcv Bnm]

Biblical repentance means to turn from our sinful disobedience against God to trusting obedience (Ezekiel 18:21).

Through faith in God's promise to forgive our sins do we repent (Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 1:17).

Through the murder of the Messiah on the cross (Romans 4:25; Philippians 2:8), who was the fulfillment of the Old Testament ceremonial laws (Hebrews 9-10) and perfect Passover sacrifice (John 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:7), through whom the penalty for our sins have been paid in full (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 20:28), are our sins forgiven and we are justified before God (Romans 5:1-2).

Only through Jesus Christ can our sins be forgiven (John 3:17-18; Matthew 7:14; John 10:9; John 14:5-6; Acts 4:10-12).

Repentance through Jesus Christ is available to everyone (John 3:16; Galatians 3:28-29).

[The Philippian Jailer asked Paul and Silas], "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

[Provoker]

Hello Zxcv Bnm:
Do you have any scriptures which define biblical repentance?
The verses you offer do not appear to claim to define repentance.
What do you think?


Biblical repentance means to turn from our sinful disobedience against God to trusting obedience (Ezekiel 18:21).

[Zxcv Bnm]

Hello Zxcv Bnm:
Do you have any scriptures which define biblical repentance?
The verses you offer do not appear to claim to define repentance.
What do you think?I agree with the secular definition you gave, but was attempting to show that the repentance that God wants from us is from disobediance to obediance. The Ezekiel verse I gave in the NIV uses the word "turn" which is the concept of repenting.

But you might also consider these verses, which indicate what is meant when the Bible uses the word "repent":

[Solomon's prayer] "and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their conquerors and say, 'We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly'; and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul....forgive all the offenses they have committed against you." (1 Kings 8:47-50; 2 Chronicles 6:37-39)

[Elihu said] "He [God] makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil." (Job 36:10)

"The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD (Isaiah 59:20)

"Therefore, O house of isreal, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall." (Ezekial 18:30 NIV)

"I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Luke 5:32 NIV)

"I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling." (Revelation 2:21)

"Remeber, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent." (Revelation 3:3)


Repentance is also associated with faith in Christ, and is commanded of all people:

"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." (Acts 20:21)

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

[davidmichaels]

Hello David:
That was quite a sermon...LOL
As I understand it, the word "repent" is a secular word which simply means to change one's mind, and in the context of the bible story, it refers to the backslidden lost sheep of Israel(the Jews), changing their minds about the coming kingdom.
The Jews learned, and taught, about the coming kingdom, but they had lost faith in the message, sometime after they returned from Babylon to Judea.
John the baptist, and Jesus, were simply re-proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, which the prophet proclaimed over 500 years before; that the messiah was actually coming to resurrect the Davidic kingdom.
Repentance was the changing of their minds, from seeing the coming kingdom as a religious myth, to seeing it as the true goal of Judaism after the messianic prophecy was made.
Since the resurrection of the kingdom will be the resurrection of covenant Israel, it will be a return to God's favour, because remember, when covenant Israel ceased to exist, it no longer kept God's laws, and could not repent because of the national division, and God was obliged, by the terms of the everlasting(old) covenant, to turn His face away from Israel, and by the same terms of the old covenant, He cannot turn His face back to Israel until Israel exists again as a covenant nation.
Once enough people repent(change their minds and accept the gospel of the kingdom), to be viable as a sovereign nation, the messiah can come and lead spiritual Israel to the resurrection of literal, covenant Israel, and the Davidic kingdom.
Of course, if one has the kingdom of Israel in his heart and mind, he will certainly have it in his heart to love God, and love his neighbour...What do you think?

Hello Provoker,

To add to the verses ZB listed…


From Job …

“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”

And then these words of Jesus...

Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

And Peter…

You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.

And Paul…

Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me .

And from Revelation…

Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.


Since the only words found of one who is repentant are those of Job, the rest being commandments or instructions, his look to offer the best description of what it means to be repentant – to see oneself for what we are and turn away from our previous conduct and thought. And since for Job this occurred well before the Davidic Kingdom, repentance is something that runs much deeper than changing ones thoughts regarding an earthly kingdom, would you not agree?

And if I may ask, Provoker, are you saying that the Kingdom Jesus said was at hand is the re establishment of the literal Davidic Kingdom, a nation of Israel under the old covenant?


David

[Provoker]

Hello David:
Not to get into hair splitting, but simply to clarify my position, repentance is a principle, a turning of the mind, and the natural response will probably be a turning of one's actions. If a person was a parapalegic by the time he repented, his actions would not have changed because he repented...the point being simply that repentance is strictly a matter of the heart and mind. While one might say; "but a change of heart is synonymous with a change of actions", I would agree, but "repent" simply means to change one's mind, and what happens after that is something else.
The more we use specific words, non-specificly, the less likely we will understand what the bible records. It is already a problem for bible scholars, because our English bibles are basicly interpretive translations of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, sentences, paraphrased into English sentences, and on top of that, virtually every bible word which is associated with bible religions, has not actually been translated at all, but simply transliterated.
**"are you saying that the Kingdom Jesus said was at hand is the re establishment of the literal Davidic Kingdom, a nation of Israel under the old covenant?"**
Yes David, that is what I am saying, but the Davidic kingdom was not "a nation of Israel", it was "THE" chosen, covenant, nation, of the children of Israel, which no longer existed after the national division when Solomon died.
The bible was written to the children of Israel, who have been in sin since they broke their agreement with God, in the everlasting(old) covenant.
The Children of Israel never repented, because if they had, they would have returned to being one nation/kingdom, and the fact that they were two separate and warring kingdoms, meant that they could not repent. Sort of a catch 22 situation.
When the kingdom of Judah was finally destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, the Judeans had to face the fact that they were not God's covenant people, because if they had been, God would have made them into a great nation.
The purpose of the everlasting(old) covenant, was for God to bless all the nations of the world, through the example of Israel becoming a great nation, by loving God, and loving one another.
Ever since the fall of Israel(at Solomon's death), the goal of those who kept the spirit of the kingdom alive in their hearts and minds(spiritual Israel), has been to build a body of people, which has the spirit of the kingdom, and is watching and waiting with it's lamps trimmed, for the messiah to arrive and lead them to kingdom resurrection.
Covenant Israel does not exist in fact, but it still exists in spirit, and when the body of spiritual Israel(the body of the Christ) is large enough to become a sovereign nation/kingdom again, the messiah will come and lead spiritual Israel to becoming literal, covenant, Israel, resurrected from the dead. At that point, Israel will again be a repentant nation(remember, the old covenant was made with "A" people, not individual people, and God's everlasting(old) covenant plan will go back into motion.
The new covenant(Jeremiah 31:31-34), will be made when Israel is resurrected, and it will simply be God's writing of His laws on the hearts of resurrected Israel, so that they will forever do by nature the things contained in the law, thus fulfilling the everlasting(old) covenant forever.
Do you see how the changing of people's minds about the kingdom, builds the body of the Christ, which will bring about the coming of the Christ, which will bring about the resurrection of covenant Israel from the dead, which will cause God to turn His face back toward Israel, and while Israel is right with God, and has the will to keep His laws, God will then, by His grace, requiring nothing in return from Israel, will write His laws on their hearts forever(new covenant), and God's old covenant plan will proceed to the blessing of all the nations of the world...What do you think?

[Provoker]

Hello Zxcv Bnm:
Consider all those good verses, in the context of the continuous story which the bible relates:
Somewhere in the middle of Solomon's reign, the kingdom became divided against it'self, but through the internal strife, Solomon managed to keep the kingdom together till he died, and then all hell broke loose in a civil war which literally split the nation of Israel, into two, separate, warring, nations(Jesus said that a kingdom divided against it'self will fall). Two separate nations at war with one another, was hardly a people which loved God and loved one another, which was Israel's obligation according to the everlasting(old) covenant, and the fact that they both went down hill till each was destroyed by other nations, is proof positive that neither kingdom was covenant Israel, and certainly not both of them...LOL The everlasting(old) covenant still continued of course, but no covenant nation existed for God to make into a great nation.
The restarting of God's covenant plan to bless all the nations of the world, is dependant on covenant Israel being resurrected, and that has been the goal of those who had the spirit of the kingdom of Israel in their hearts, since Solomon's death.
All the scriptures you quoted, fit smoothly into the context of this clearly obvious bible theme, and if one interprets those verses in the context of pre-conceived church doctrines, rather than in the context of the bible story, he may simply miss the story of the bible.
This is why I think it is important to recognize that the kingdom can only be divided while it was a kingdom, which in the case of Israel, was during the last part of Solomon's reign, and after Solomon's death, it split into two separte, unified, kingdoms, and they ***WERE NOT*** a divided kingdom.
The impliction that the two warring kingdoms resulting from the civil war, were actually one kingdom, but divided, covers up the context in which the scriptures you quoted, must be interpreted. This allowed bishops of the official Roman empire religion, to blatantly mis-interpret the very scriptures you quoted, and stop the buildup of a Zealot force which could possibly overthrow Rome.
What do you think?

[davidmichaels]

Hello David:
Not to get into hair splitting, but simply to clarify my position, repentance is a principle, a turning of the mind, and the natural response will probably be a turning of one's actions. If a person was a parapalegic by the time he repented, his actions would not have changed because he repented...the point being simply that repentance is strictly a matter of the heart and mind. While one might say; "but a change of heart is synonymous with a change of actions", I would agree, but "repent" simply means to change one's mind, and what happens after that is something else.

Hello Provoker,

Would you not agree that actions are not exclusively the movement of arms and legs, but are also the words spoken and the direction and focus of our will force?


The more we use specific words, non-specificly, the less likely we will understand what the bible records. It is already a problem for bible scholars, because our English bibles are basicly interpretive translations of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, sentences, paraphrased into English sentences, and on top of that, virtually every bible word which is associated with bible religions, has not actually been translated at all, but simply transliterated.

And would this not be why we cannot limit our understanding of God and His Creation to what our minds determine with human rationale and reason, but look to our conscience and hearts where we are guided by soul and spirit?

**"are you saying that the Kingdom Jesus said was at hand is the re establishment of the literal Davidic Kingdom, a nation of Israel under the old covenant?"**
Yes David, that is what I am saying, but the Davidic kingdom was not "a nation of Israel", it was "THE" chosen, covenant, nation, of the children of Israel, which no longer existed after the national division when Solomon died.
The bible was written to the children of Israel, who have been in sin since they broke their agreement with God, in the everlasting(old) covenant.
The Children of Israel never repented, because if they had, they would have returned to being one nation/kingdom, and the fact that they were two separate and warring kingdoms, meant that they could not repent. Sort of a catch 22 situation.
When the kingdom of Judah was finally destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, the Judeans had to face the fact that they were not God's covenant people, because if they had been, God would have made them into a great nation.
The purpose of the everlasting(old) covenant, was for God to bless all the nations of the world, through the example of Israel becoming a great nation, by loving God, and loving one another.
Ever since the fall of Israel(at Solomon's death), the goal of those who kept the spirit of the kingdom alive in their hearts and minds(spiritual Israel), has been to build a body of people, which has the spirit of the kingdom, and is watching and waiting with it's lamps trimmed, for the messiah to arrive and lead them to kingdom resurrection.
Covenant Israel does not exist in fact, but it still exists in spirit, and when the body of spiritual Israel(the body of the Christ) is large enough to become a sovereign nation/kingdom again, the messiah will come and lead spiritual Israel to becoming literal, covenant, Israel, resurrected from the dead. At that point, Israel will again be a repentant nation(remember, the old covenant was made with "A" people, not individual people, and God's everlasting(old) covenant plan will go back into motion.
The new covenant(Jeremiah 31:31-34), will be made when Israel is resurrected, and it will simply be God's writing of His laws on the hearts of resurrected Israel, so that they will forever do by nature the things contained in the law, thus fulfilling the everlasting(old) covenant forever.
Do you see how the changing of people's minds about the kingdom, builds the body of the Christ, which will bring about the coming of the Christ, which will bring about the resurrection of covenant Israel from the dead, which will cause God to turn His face back toward Israel, and while Israel is right with God, and has the will to keep His laws, God will then, by His grace, requiring nothing in return from Israel, will write His laws on their hearts forever(new covenant), and God's old covenant plan will proceed to the blessing of all the nations of the world...What do you think?


It feels that your conclusions do not include what we learned from Jesus regarding God's Purposes and ultimate Will for humanity...

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.

And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”
Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

If God were looking to establish a physical kingdom, why would Jesus then be preparing a place for his disciples that was not of this world and promising to come and take them there?

Is not God's desire that every last one of His lost children be redeemed from their existence in this world? And if you agree that this is The Goal, then perhaps you might want to consider that the literal kingdom of Israel was only a means to achieve that Goal.

Indeed, God covenanted with Israel to establish a Holy Nation in the physical on earth...

From Exodus...

You yourselves have seen what I DID in Egypt, how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if YOU OBEY ME FULLY and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be FOR ME a kingdom of priests and a HOLY NATION.

And that failed, yes? And so a new covenant was established as prophesied in Jeremiah 31 and known by Paul...

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple to the Lord.

If God's Kingdom is not of this world and His ultimate Goal is for the redemption of His lost children and their return to that Kingdom which existed since the foundation of this world, what is the intent of the covenants and the establishment of a holy temple or nation, comprised of the righteous?

Any ideas how this fits into the God's Plan for Salvation?



David

[Provoker]

Hello Provoker,

Would you not agree that actions are not exclusively the movement of arms and legs, but are also the words spoken and the direction and focus of our will force?[\quote]
Hello David: Yes, of course. My point is only that while a repentant person will change his actions if he can, repentance it'self is simply a change of mind, and a change of actions is a response to that change of mind.
The focus of one's will is also simply a principle, which needs to be put into action. It is simply the difference between the spiritual(what is in one's heart and mind), and the physical(one's outward response to the spirit).



[Quote]
And would this not be why we cannot limit our understanding of God and His Creation to what our minds determine with human rationale and reason, but look to our conscience and hearts where we are guided by soul and spirit?
The way I see this David, is that when an author, who cannot lie, writes a book in known languages, he makes an implicit guarantee that it is completely understandable according to the common rules of communication in those languages...and an understanding of the context, of course. So I do not believe that it is written in some kind of spiritual code, because that would be lying to those who assume that, because it is written in known languages, that it can be understood in those languages.
The other thing is, that you and I were blessed with God given logic, without which, neither of us would have lived very long, and would have been killed in some stupid accident...LOL
"Holy" is basicly the same thing as "righteous", or simply "right". When one has it in his heart and mind to become right, he will honestly, and without bias, read scripture to determine the truth of what it relates. It is my opinion that if one honestly attempts to understand the bible in the context of the consistant and continuous story it tells, he has a holy spirit.
Whether a holy spirit is The Holy Spirit or not is a whole nuther discussion...LOL





It feels that your conclusions do not include what we learned from Jesus regarding God's Purposes and ultimate Will for humanity...

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.

And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”
Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

If God were looking to establish a physical kingdom, why would Jesus then be preparing a place for his disciples that was not of this world and promising to come and take them there?

Is not God's desire that every last one of His lost children be redeemed from their existence in this world? And if you agree that this is The Goal, then perhaps you might want to consider that the literal kingdom of Israel was only a means to achieve that Goal.

Indeed, God covenanted with Israel to establish a Holy Nation in the physical on earth...

From Exodus...

You yourselves have seen what I DID in Egypt, how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if YOU OBEY ME FULLY and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be FOR ME a kingdom of priests and a HOLY NATION.

And that failed, yes? And so a new covenant was established as prophesied in Jeremiah 31 and known by Paul...

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple to the Lord.

If God's Kingdom is not of this world and His ultimate Goal is for the redemption of His lost children and their return to that Kingdom which existed since the foundation of this world, what is the intent of the covenants and the establishment of a holy temple or nation, comprised of the righteous?

Any ideas how this fits into the God's Plan for Salvation?



David
If you consider the proper word meanings and the context, Jesus simply said that the kingdom will not be resurrected at this time, or era. "World" does not mean "the earth", it simply refers to the time, place, culture, etc. The context is that Jesus had already lamented about the previous prophets who were killed by the Jerusalem Jews, so when Jesus was arrested by the chief priests, Pharisees, and soldiers, was delivered to the high priest, and then delivered to the Romans, he knew that he was not going to resurrect the kingdom at that time.
The bible was not written in verses, it was written in context, which is the story which runs with continuity from end to end in the bible. Single verses can be interpreted any way one wants to interpret them, and that is why there is thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations. It is also why I do not quote single verses, or single passages, but simply relate the story as a chronological series of events, which will be recognizable to anyone who went to Sunday school, and which represent the actual context in which the sentences were written. Without the whole story, verses mean nothing...LOL
Not only that, but everything that Jesus said, must also be understood in the context of the story, not simply on single verse interpretations.
A lot of people give lip service to "interpreting in context", but most simply mean; "read the verse before and the verse after"...LOL
However, I have no proof for anything I write, but can only claim to have honestly considered opinions:-)
What do you think?

[davidmichaels]

The way I see this David, is that when an author, who cannot lie, writes a book in known languages, he makes an implicit guarantee that it is completely understandable according to the common rules of communication in those languages...and an understanding of the context, of course. So I do not believe that it is written in some kind of spiritual code, because that would be lying to those who assume that, because it is written in known languages, that it can be understood in those languages.
The other thing is, that you and I were blessed with God given logic, without which, neither of us would have lived very long, and would have been killed in some stupid accident...LOL.
Holy" is basicly the same thing as "righteous", or simply "right". When one has it in his heart and mind to become right, he will honestly, and without bias, read scripture to determine the truth of what it relates. It is my opinion that if one honestly attempts to understand the bible in the context of the consistant and continuous story it tells, he has a holy spirit.
Whether a holy spirit is The Holy Spirit or not is a whole nuther discussion...LOL.
If you consider the proper word meanings and the context, Jesus simply said that the kingdom will not be resurrected at this time, or era. "World" does not mean "the earth", it simply refers to the time, place, culture, etc. The context is that Jesus had already lamented about the previous prophets who were killed by the Jerusalem Jews, so when Jesus was arrested by the chief priests, Pharisees, and soldiers, was delivered to the high priest, and then delivered to the Romans, he knew that he was not going to resurrect the kingdom at that time.
The bible was not written in verses, it was written in context, which is the story which runs with continuity from end to end in the bible. Single verses can be interpreted any way one wants to interpret them, and that is why there is thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations. It is also why I do not quote single verses, or single passages, but simply relate the story as a chronological series of events, which will be recognizable to anyone who went to Sunday school, and which represent the actual context in which the sentences were written. Without the whole story, verses mean nothing...LOL
Not only that, but everything that Jesus said, must also be understood in the context of the story, not simply on single verse interpretations.
A lot of people give lip service to "interpreting in context", but most simply mean; "read the verse before and the verse after"...LOL
However, I have no proof for anything I write, but can only claim to have honestly considered opinions:-)
What do you think?


I think that none of us will get anywhere if we continue to seek with our intellect!

Much of humanity has lost connection with their soul and hence with Spirit. Spirit does not talk to us through our minds or intellect or rational reasoning, but through our hearts which is the seat of the child of God within us.

Of course the mind is necessary to translate what is felt and discerned into thoughts and actions. But if we look solely into our minds for the answers, we will only find opinions and ideas. Not His Truth nor right (or holy!) understanding.

Inspired words are filled with Spirit and so speak to our hearts. This is how we discern the true meaning behind them.

That said, logic tells me that the same Greek word is used in reference to the place that His Kingdom is not of as is used in reference to the place that God loved and sent His ony begotten Son (John 3:16). Even then whose to say that the Greek translators had a clue!

Best to look to our hearts, eh? What does your say?


David

[Provoker]

Hello David:
I don't think that one can separate the heart from the mind. The fleshly heart sustains the life of the body, and the "biblical" heart, is a metaphore for the part of the mind which sustains one's purpose in life. If one has evil in his mind, he has an evil spirit...and if he has holiness in his mind, he has a holy spirit.
Theology is an academic discipline, which if pursued with reason and logic, would result in a unified church, but when churchmen ignored their God given logic, and discerned the "true" meaning of scripture by the whims of their hearts, they spawned 30,000+ doctrinally opposing denominations.
My heart tells me to apply my God given logic to understanding the continuously flowing story, which runs all the way through the bible, and the individual sentences will automaticly be clear in that context, and will not require individual interpretations...LOL
What do you think, eh?

[Ken1Burton]

David.

(HOSEA 13:14) I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I
will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O
grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (KJV)

(ROMANS 11:29) For the gifts and calling of God are without
repentance. (KJV)

Now as long as people want to do their own works and get Salvation, I guess Jesus is not needed. But with Repentance HID from God’s eyes. YOU have a Problem.

To REPENT is to tell God, Jesus was NOT ENOUGH. I have to get Salvation by my works, Not by His. Repentance is a LACK OF FAITH in the Salvation given mankind by Jesus taking upon Himself our sins as His Own.

For the law required in Deuteronomy 24:16 that EVERY MAN shall be put to death for His OWN SIN. And God laid upon Jesus the iniquity of us all. So “Behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.

So repent and turn the spotlight on you, Leave Jesus and the true Sacrifice in the dark. And after you have added Repentance to YOUR Righteousness, REMEMBER, All OUR Righteousness is as Filthy rags. Our Baptism is as Filthy water, Jesus rendered to man His righteousness in Job 33:26 which is looking at Jesus on the cross.

Jesus took the Baptism of Repentance for US, Preparing what we needed for when He rendered to man His righteousness, and all us WICKED SHEEP seen in Jeremiah 12:1/3 now with the righteousness of Christ on us, fed the Hungry, clothed the naked, Etc because Jesus did the works, we got the credit.

For by Grace are we saved, Through Faith, and that not of ourselves, Jesus gave us HIS. So Repentance is just a way we can boast as if we got our own salvation, But Salvation is a GIFT, and the Gifts and Callings of God are WITHOUT REPENTANCE.

Our Salvation comes by our being conceived, the moment that happened we were written in the Lamb’s book of Life. His grace is sufficient to cover anything a person will do in their lifetime on earth. His love is greater then our hate.

At death we all go to God, Hell ended the third day, it was a place of sleep till Jesus died for sin, At Heaven’s broken down gate, you will see those who came out of hell taking to the enemies in the gate as they tell of the love and Mercy of God. Seen in Revelation as those who came out of great tribulation.

We do not need to see how terrible we are, See How loving God is. And as far as selfish. Repenting to save yourself is still Selfish. The one in the temple did not ask “God forgive me, and give me salvation.” But just to be forgiven.

Be careful with the Prodical Son similitudes. Know one Parable, Know them all, they are all for Jesus, Took all the Father gave and gave unto us, Riotous living was eating and drinking with publicans and sinners, Being in want is to want all mankind saved, not just the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Feed the Swine, Speak to Non-Jews.

(MARK 4:13) And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and
how then will ye know all parables? (KJV)

Build bigger barns=reach for all mankind. The day of the cross is seen as 3 pictures, as leaven hidden in three measures of wheat. The day seen as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26. First as 4 6-hour periods as 4 beasts with 6-wings, Second as 2 12-hour periods as 2 witnesses, third as 1 24-hour period seen as 24 Elders. So the three pictures are days, the 7 time periods are days, so there are ten days Total, He shall have tribulation 10 days,

Likened to 10 Virgins, Like Ten lepers, WHERE ARE THE NINE?

The day as 4 types of ground in the Sower, Wayside is where the Disciples as seeds fell, Good Ground is noon to sunset as Jesus died, The day as 3 pictures, 30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold.

As a man who went into a far country to receive a Kingdom and return, Jesus went into hell to get them all out, There He received a Kingdom. Over and over the same pictures.

Ken

[davidmichaels]

Hello David:
I don't think that one can separate the heart from the mind. The fleshly heart sustains the life of the body, and the "biblical" heart, is a metaphore for the part of the mind which sustains one's purpose in life. If one has evil in his mind, he has an evil spirit...and if he has holiness in his mind, he has a holy spirit.
Theology is an academic discipline, which if pursued with reason and logic, would result in a unified church, but when churchmen ignored their God given logic, and discerned the "true" meaning of scripture by the whims of their hearts, they spawned 30,000+ doctrinally opposing denominations.
My heart tells me to apply my God given logic to understanding the continuously flowing story, which runs all the way through the bible, and the individual sentences will automaticly be clear in that context, and will not require individual interpretations...LOL
What do you think, eh?

Hi Provoker,

I recall feeling just as you have described, seeing the Bible as one whole continuous story. And a good place to begin is with Genesis. Actually, you will find much if you look just at Genesis and Revelation, because Revelation is Genesis in reverse.

We will return to the Garden following the same steps that brought us out.

There is much God wants to show us about the Garden. I would suggest prayer and meditation, including much stillness and listening. Truth is in the rocks and trees and everything that surrounds us in this world, if we will only but listen...

And when our heart is awakened, we see how a mind operating without the heart is lost for the heart is the seat of Christ within.

Thank you for sharing your insights.


David

[davidmichaels]

David.

(HOSEA 13:14) I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I
will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O
grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (KJV)

(ROMANS 11:29) For the gifts and calling of God are without
repentance. (KJV)

Now as long as people want to do their own works and get Salvation, I guess Jesus is not needed. But with Repentance HID from God’s eyes. YOU have a Problem.

To REPENT is to tell God, Jesus was NOT ENOUGH. I have to get Salvation by my works, Not by His. Repentance is a LACK OF FAITH in the Salvation given mankind by Jesus taking upon Himself our sins as His Own.

<snip>

Over and over the same pictures.

Ken

Hey Ken,

I appreciate your input.

May I suggest you take another look at the verse from Hosea mentioned at the top of you post? God is not referring to our repentance there, but His own, repentance is hid from My eyes means that He feels no pity or compassion for us.

And with the Romans verse, again it is referring to God's repentance, that he will not change His mind and revoke His gifts and calling.

I understand what you are saying about us not being saved by works, but in the case of repentance, this is not a work of the flesh, but an inner work. God cannot go against our free will and if we choose this world and its blessings, then He will not impose and redeem us.

Repentance is a reversal, turning our hearts away from this world back towards Him. Only then can we receive His Saving Grace.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


David

[Ken1Burton]

David.

Jesus sent the Disciples forth preaching repentance. But does Repentance need to be done?

(ISAIAH 42:19) Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my
messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and
blind as the Lord's servant? (KJV)
(ISAIAH 42:20) Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening
the ears, but he heareth not. (KJV)
(ISAIAH 42:21) The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness'
sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. (KJV)

And Isaiah 41:19/21 be speaking of anyone other then Jesus? This is God telling us something about Jesus, He missed things.

Daniel 9:24 had to be fulfilled, Making an end of sins, and bringing in Everlasting righteousness, and it had to be fulfilled the day of the cross.

With all sin paid for, and His righteousness on man, Why would God see repentance anyway?
Sin is paid in full, Over as accountable unto man.

What we now have is things which would have separated us from God, Had Jesus not taken away the sin of the world.

Hell ended. Zechariah 9:11 shows them with Christ being set free. Isaiah 26:19 shows them raising with Christ. Death and hell were cast into the Lake of fire, and God’s word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. They have been fulfilled and ended.

This repentance theology does not need Jesus. NOT ONE BIT:

(EZEKIEL 18:27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his
wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful
and right, he shall save his soul alive. (KJV)

This was BEFORE Jesus came to mankind. This allowed a man to keep his SOUL ALIVE. Sorry, Jesus is not needed here. Just do right and you have made Salvation for your own soul. Repentance Theology is turn from being wicked, and do that which is right. NOW? Show where Jesus is needed here? God already made the offer in Ezekiel.

Or is there a Problem? Could it be our doing right has a bit of a Temporary existence? That it does not last too long till our Human Nature eats away at our temporary righteousness.

Is that why “No man cometh unto the Father, But by Me.”? That Jesus had to take all our sins as His own, Past, present, and all future sins at Golgotha. And only by that do we have access to God, and all have access because Jesus took away all sin.

Christ took all our sins, and there is NO WAY anyone can get the smallest one back. Trying to deal with what Jesus has already dealt with in full is in VAIN.

God did not tell us, Jesus paid it all, If you murder, steal, cheat, Commit every sin known unto mankind, I will still love you. Impart no sin unto you, and the Righteousness of Christ is upon you all. That is, Did not tell us plainly, But He did say it in Scripture.

Being separated from God would not hurt us anywhere near to what it would hurt God. We are God’s Children, that is why Jesus was sent, So He would not lose a single one.

Jesus is given the heathen as an inheritance in Psalms 2:8. “Of all the Father has given Jesus, He loses none but the Son of Perdition. Guess who has the sin of the world? Guess who had to go into hell, Guess who God was referring to when He said “I will seek and save He who is lost.”?

That is why Zechariah 9:11 starts with “AS for THEE ALSO.”

And the prophecy for Judas not going to hell in Job 33:27/29. Jesus was given 12 Disciples and HIMSELF. He is the one who is lost as God could not even look upon Him with iniquity as Jesus hung upon the cross.

Ken

[davidmichaels]

David.

Jesus sent the Disciples forth preaching repentance. But does Repentance need to be done?

(ISAIAH 42:19) Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my
messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and
blind as the Lord's servant? (KJV)
(ISAIAH 42:20) Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening
the ears, but he heareth not. (KJV)
(ISAIAH 42:21) The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness'
sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. (KJV)

And Isaiah 41:19/21 be speaking of anyone other then Jesus? This is God telling us something about Jesus, He missed things.

Daniel 9:24 had to be fulfilled, Making an end of sins, and bringing in Everlasting righteousness, and it had to be fulfilled the day of the cross.

With all sin paid for, and His righteousness on man, Why would God see repentance anyway?
Sin is paid in full, Over as accountable unto man.

What we now have is things which would have separated us from God, Had Jesus not taken away the sin of the world.

Hell ended. Zechariah 9:11 shows them with Christ being set free. Isaiah 26:19 shows them raising with Christ. Death and hell were cast into the Lake of fire, and God’s word is like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. They have been fulfilled and ended.

This repentance theology does not need Jesus. NOT ONE BIT:

(EZEKIEL 18:27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his
wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful
and right, he shall save his soul alive. (KJV)

This was BEFORE Jesus came to mankind. This allowed a man to keep his SOUL ALIVE. Sorry, Jesus is not needed here. Just do right and you have made Salvation for your own soul. Repentance Theology is turn from being wicked, and do that which is right. NOW? Show where Jesus is needed here? God already made the offer in Ezekiel.

Or is there a Problem? Could it be our doing right has a bit of a Temporary existence? That it does not last too long till our Human Nature eats away at our temporary righteousness.

Is that why “No man cometh unto the Father, But by Me.”? That Jesus had to take all our sins as His own, Past, present, and all future sins at Golgotha. And only by that do we have access to God, and all have access because Jesus took away all sin.

Christ took all our sins, and there is NO WAY anyone can get the smallest one back. Trying to deal with what Jesus has already dealt with in full is in VAIN.

God did not tell us, Jesus paid it all, If you murder, steal, cheat, Commit every sin known unto mankind, I will still love you. Impart no sin unto you, and the Righteousness of Christ is upon you all. That is, Did not tell us plainly, But He did say it in Scripture.

Being separated from God would not hurt us anywhere near to what it would hurt God. We are God’s Children, that is why Jesus was sent, So He would not lose a single one.

Jesus is given the heathen as an inheritance in Psalms 2:8. “Of all the Father has given Jesus, He loses none but the Son of Perdition. Guess who has the sin of the world? Guess who had to go into hell, Guess who God was referring to when He said “I will seek and save He who is lost.”?

That is why Zechariah 9:11 starts with “AS for THEE ALSO.”

And the prophecy for Judas not going to hell in Job 33:27/29. Jesus was given 12 Disciples and HIMSELF. He is the one who is lost as God could not even look upon Him with iniquity as Jesus hung upon the cross.

Ken

Hi Ken,

Are you saying the through Jesus, God has already taken away all the sins of the world? So we are all splotless in His eyes now, perfect, and nothing needs to be done? The whole now just sits and waits, for what? For us all to be raptured and taken back to Heaven?

Why then have we all sat and waited for 2000 years?

Or is the taking away of sins contingent on some action on our part?


David

[Provoker]

This repentance theology does not need Jesus. NOT ONE BIT:



Hello Ken:
I agree with your statement above, but not for the same reason that you do...LOL
"Repentance theology" refers to the repentance of national Israel, which is necessary to re-start God's everlasting(old) covenant plan to bless all the nations of the world. However, national Israel(the chosen, covenant nation/kingdom) has not existed for over 29 centuries, and it's repentance cannot take place until national Israel(the kingdom) is resurrected into existence again.
"Personal repentance" is when an individual "changes his mind", and accepts the good news that the resurrection of the kingdom is actually going to take place...the good news that Jesus proclaimed, and which he commissioned his disciples to preach to everyone in the world.
When an individual repents(believes in his heart that the kingdom is coming), his heart and mind becomes full of the spirit of the coming kingdom, and he is then part of spiritual Israel(Israel in spirit), and he begins to watch and wait for the Christ, who will lead spiritual Israel to national resurrection/repentance, at which point spiritual Israel will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, into literal, covenant Israel, resurrected from the dead.
The resurrection of covenant Israel will be Israel's national repentance...which fell because it failed to love God and love one another, but could not repent, because it split into two enemy nations, both of which perished without ever reuniting to repent.
What do you think?

[Ken1Burton]

David.

God’s word has said God through Jesus took all sin away, Made an End of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness. Just as Daniel 9:24 shows, That is a Prophecy, it concerns Jesus, and had to be fulfilled the day of the cross and it was:

(LUKE 18:31) Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them,
Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by
the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. (KJV)

(DANIEL 9:24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon
thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of
sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in
everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy. (KJV)

The 70 weeks in a diversion. This concerns Jesus, This is a prophecy, This had to be fulfilled the day of the cross. The SEAL worked also, It kept the Disciples and Paul from seeing sin ended as Accountable unto mankind.

The Rapture was also Old Testament. Which means that also had to be fulfilled the day of the cross.

Is there any doubt that these old Testament prophecies concern Jesus, and had to be fulfilled as Luke 18:31 showed?

(HOSEA 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he
will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. (KJV)

(ISAIAH 26:19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body
shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy
dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (KJV)

God fulfilled everything in one day. He made the day as a week in Isaiah 30:26. The first picture is as 4 6-hour periods. They are seen as 4 days. Sunset to Midnight is the First day. It is the Creation story also, a Similitude.

Let there be Light: I am the true Vine, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, In My Father’s House are many mansions. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me, as Jesus pours out the Light to the Disciples at the Last Supper.

Jesus has to take sin. That is what Jesus is praying about on the Mount of Olives, He would like a loophole. He does not want to be separated from God because of sin. He does not want to die and go into hell. If there is another way.

The first seal, is the White horse, the White horse coming in clouds is Jesus taking sin during this time period. Sunset to Midnight, Sin likened to Clouds, Taking sin is the White horse coming in clouds:

(ISAIAH 44:22) I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy
transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I
have redeemed thee. (KJV)

Midnight to Sunrise is the Second day. The Second physical day will be a Future similitude, Jesus has just taken sin, He is Spiritually DEAD. Or as in hell. Midnight to sunrise is Outer Darkness. Jesus has sin, He has no wedding Garment. He is SPEECHLESS. Disciples weeping as they flee, 144 with Judas Gnashing their teeth.

Second day in Genesis, Waters divided above and below the Firmament, Jesus is the Firmament. Disciples flee as Islands. People as waters. 144 with Judas, (seen as a wall in Revelation 21:17. added the Cubit or reached Angel Status) they are the Angels given charge over THEE. Sinners are waters under Jesus. Multiplied by 1,000 in Deuteronomy 1:11= 144,000

Ezekiel said in that day, Every wall shall fall to the Ground. When Jesus said “I am He.” They went backwards and fell to the Ground. BECAUSE they are likened to a Wall:

(REVELATION 21:17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and
forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is,
of the angel. (KJV)

The Third day is Sunrise to noon. Third seal is the Black Horse with Balances. The Judgment of Christ. One Measure of Wheat for a penny (day’s wage) Three measures of Barley for a penny. See the day as one day or as 3 pictures.

Third day in Genesis, The Waters are gathered together. Or we are all in Christ. “With His stripes we are healed.” Or as in Resurrected to life from being spiritually dead. Third physical day is a future similitude for that which has already been fulfilled in Scripture. Jesus giving us life.

(PSALMS 69:1) Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my
soul. (KJV)

As God had poured out His Spirit (Jesus) upon all flesh. So we all became as an Unclean thing, then with His stripes we are healed.

Third angel sounds the Star (Stars are for signs) Wormwood falls, This is a Sign of the Judgment falling on Christ. Jesus made all things cursed, Even as the Earth, God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. Earth destroyed by fire is as Jesus died at Golgotha.

(AMOS 5:7) Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off
righteousness in the earth, (KJV)
I almost forgot the Rapture concept:

Trumpet sounds:

(ISAIAH 58:1) Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a
trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of
Jacob their sins. (KJV)

Jesus as He cries out at death, is the Trumpet sounding, This is also Jesus crying from the End of the earth. Then went Jesus raises, We have a New Earth. His days as Heaven also. Third heaven is Sunrise to noon, Words not lawful for a man to speak that Paul spoke of it Jesus saying He is the Son of the Blessed, The Priests rent their clothes, all said He is worthy of death for the words He spoke.

The Rapture is seen in Jeremiah:

(JEREMIAH 4:19) My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart;
my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou
hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. (KJV)

Jesus as He cries out at Death, His heart either ruptured or a main artery broke, and the Blood pumped into the Body Cavity as the Spear piercing His side showed, Dead people do not bleed a lot. Jesus bleed to death at Golgotha. The trumpet is the Death cry.

(JEREMIAH 4:20) Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the
whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my
curtains in a moment. (KJV)

Jesus was made all things cursed, so all is destroyed in Christ. The tents are spoiled, as Jesus and God now dwells with mankind. The Curtains is the Veil in the Temple ripped, Paul’s MOMENT is also seen. In a Moment, in the Twinkling of an Eye, The trumpet shall sound, the Lord shall descent (Jesus has to go into hell) and we are changed. (converted as Children in 4:22)

(JEREMIAH 4:21) How long shall I see the standard, and hear the
sound of the trumpet? (KJV)

Jesus still crying out as the blood is being pumped into the Body Cavity, the Standard is the Cross at Golgotha.

(JEREMIAH 4:22) For my people is foolish, they have not known me;
they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they
are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. (KJV)

Converted as Children by God’s word. Rebellious Children, But Children none the less.

(JEREMIAH 4:23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form,
and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (KJV)

Looking at the Dead Body of Jesus, This is the BEGINNING. This is where John 1:1 belongs. The Heavens have no light because the Light of the World just descended into hell.

(JEREMIAH 4:24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and
all the hills moved lightly. (KJV)

The day is all the Sevens in Revelation, it is seen as 7 mountains also.

The day of the cross is as a thousand years, so the rest of the dead lived not again till the 1,000 years was over, that is the Second day.

(HOSEA 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he
will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. (KJV)

The Fourth day is Noon to sunset. fourth seal is the Pale Horse, Death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended int hell. Fourth day is the MIDST of the Week. Jesus causes The Daily Sacrifice to cease then. No more daily sin offering, No more daily burnt offering, etc.

Fourth day in Genesis, God makes two great lights. Sun seen as the Throne in Psalms 89:36. Sun darkened as Jesus died and they think that is the end. Moon seen as the Establishment of the Throne in Psalms 89:37. Moon is turned to blood as the Blood of Christ establishes the Throne.

Fourth angel sounds in Revelation, Third of the Sun and the moon is smitten, or one of the three pictures is complete.

We are in the New World which BEGAN the day of the cross, The New World has a Beginning, the Old world did not, the Old World ended the day of the cross, The New World is World without end.

So Jesus is the Beginning and the Ending. Like a Jasper and Sardine stone, the First and last stones to be placed in the Breastplate or Righteousnesss.

With all sin paid in full, With all the righteousness of Christ already on you, Will you of your freewill serve God for NOTHING? Here is the Bottom line. What are you doing serving God? Trying to get? Trying to avoid? Or sharing the love you have for Jesus and God?

Freewill does not really exist if we could go to hell for not loving God, And Freewill does not exist if there are rewards we can earn, For they are things which would sway us. But after knowing the Love of God, and no one can see this point without knowing that love, Will you still serve God?

Telling a person God has forgiven them in full, and the Righteousness of Christ is on them means nothing. They would never believe it UNLESS, They already know God is that loving. So no one will take it as a licence to do evil. And if you know God is that loving, You do not desire to hurt others, So you would not use Grace as a licence to hurt others.

We have World without end, Generation after Generation. We can share God. New people coming in all the time.

The Jewish nation was put into a Deep Sleep from seeing Jesus. The Alarm clock is about to ring. God does NOTHING Without showing it FIRST. 2029 A.D. the Jewish nation will see Jesus is the Messiah, They will look on Him that they have pierced. A future similitude for what had already been fulfilled at Calvary.

It will start about 8 years earlier, They start burning their weapons for seven years, all the Arguments will be consumed with God’s word like as a fire, then for seven months they bury the bones, or put all the prophecies in the right order. Then they FOLLOW the ARK. (This is not a Second coming for Jesus, He is already here, Look inside your heart)

(JOSHUA 3:3) And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the
ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the
Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go
after it. (KJV)
(JOSHUA 3:4) Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about
two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may
know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way
heretofore. (KJV)

This is a Similitude, For when they see the ARK which is Jesus Christ, and the Priests lifting Jesus upon the Cross, Follow in 2,000 years, Cross was 29 A.D. 2029 A. D. The Alarm clock rings. Then most of the World will see Jesus is the Christ, seen in Ezekiel’s temple vision. Fishers of men better get HUGH NETS.

(EZEKIEL 47:9) And it shall come to pass, that every thing that
liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall
live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because
these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and
every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:10) And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall
stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place
to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds,
as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. (KJV)

There are hundreds of more interlocking pieces of the Puzzle God inspired through the Prophets:

(JOHN 19:28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now
accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I
thirst. (KJV)

Jesus has to drink the VINEagar, or fruit of the Vine, and allow Himself to die.

(JOHN 19:29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they
filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to
his mouth. (KJV)
(JOHN 19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he
said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus took away sin as God had arraigned. All we need to do is be Conceived. We are written in the Lamb’s book of life then. We were not written in before we were conceived, God’s word like as a fire, We are Immersed in God’s word when we begin life. or cast into the lake of fire. Baptized with fire is also immersed in God’s word.

Ken

PS. God did not lie:

(MALACHI 3:10) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that
there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith
the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven,
and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to
receive it. (KJV)

This is a Similitude, it is to bring or see everyone is saved by grace, Bring them all into the Storehouse or into Christ. His days are as heaven, and God will open those windows so you can see the Love of God there.

[Ken1Burton]

Provoker.

As far as the Nation of Israel. God knows who belongs to it:

(NEHEMIAH 1:9) But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments,
and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost
part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will
bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there. (KJV)

Look close at what God is saying, He is saying this to JESUS. God starts taking to “YOU” but ends up Gathering THEM. “There were OF YOU” or part of the Body of Christ seen born the day of the cross in Psalms 2:6/7, Given the Heathen in 2:8.

The day of the cross seen as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26. The first picture as 4 6-hour periods, seen as the Four corners of the Earth, as four Kingdoms. The Children of the Kingdom are cast into Outer Darkness. Or do not see Jesus is the Christ because God blinded them in Deep sleep in Isaiah 29:10/12. 2029 A.D. the Alarm clock goes off.

Outer Darkness is Midnight to Sunrise, Jesus took sin, No wedding Garment. He is Speechless.

(MATTHEW 8:12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out
into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (KJV)

Jesus said “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.” So they are blinded from seeing Jesus is the Messiah, and Blinded from seeing they are saved by grace through Christ. So guess who just slew His brother?

(PSALMS 78:34) When he slew them, then they sought him: and they
returned and inquired early after God. (KJV)

Returned early is while Jesus is still alive on the Cross, REMEMBER they told Pilate Write not King of the Jews but that He said He was King of the Jews, Look what Wording THEY USED:

(MARK 15:32) Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the
cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified
with him reviled him. (KJV)

Because Jesus had to fulfill all the prophecies. And “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.” as a requirement for Belief, a Covenant. God voided it, all saved by grace, All come to God by all sin placed on Jesus.

(PSALMS 89:35) Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie
unto David. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:36) His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as
the sun before me. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:37) It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as
a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:38) But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been
wroth with thine anointed. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:39) Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant:
thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground. (KJV)

God voided the Covenant, God concluded all in Unbelief, that He might have Mercy on all, and He does.

Because God doubles twice to establish His words, Many things are seen in different ways to establish them.

Like Jesus being the Street. First seen as a way for those who are alive, Second seen as a way for those who have died and gone to hell (we all fell short) third as a way to Heaven. The day as three pictures is as Gold, So the Street is paved with Gold, seen as 7 time periods is as Silver tried in the fire seven times.

(ISAIAH 51:23) But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict
thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over:
and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to
them that went over. (KJV)

Ken

[davidmichaels]

David.

God’s word has said God through Jesus took all sin away, Made an End of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness. Just as Daniel 9:24 shows, That is a Prophecy, it concerns Jesus, and had to be fulfilled the day of the cross and it was:
<snip>

Jesus took away sin as God had arraigned. All we need to do is be Conceived. We are written in the Lamb’s book of life then. We were not written in before we were conceived, God’s word like as a fire, We are Immersed in God’s word when we begin life. or cast into the lake of fire. Baptized with fire is also immersed in God’s word.

Ken

PS. God did not lie:

(MALACHI 3:10) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that
there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith
the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven,
and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to
receive it. (KJV)

This is a Similitude, it is to bring or see everyone is saved by grace, Bring them all into the Storehouse or into Christ. His days are as heaven, and God will open those windows so you can see the Love of God there.

Hello Ken,

I became a little dizzy reading all your quotes and just want to say that I think all the rituals and stories of the Old Testament are shadows or reflections of God's Truth and I actually don't think we can see it's fulfillment here in this world. These images are offered to point us in the right direction.

And so while we may see things as you have seen and pointed out, it is best not to get stuck there, but keep seeking. For there is always something higher.

This may not be the sort of reply you are seeking, and maybe something else will come to me. But right now all I am feeling to say is that all of God's lost children will be saved by Grace. We will not see this in any one generation, where each time only a few will be in place to receive His Grace, but eventually all will repent and be saved. This is why the imagery is sometimes confusing. The time element is not clear. Sometimes the image is looking at one generation and sometimes it is looking across all time.


David

[Provoker]

As far as the Nation of Israel. God knows who belongs to it

Hello Ken:
I agree, but I'm afraid that I'm not up on contemporary Christian lingo, and your post mostly went over my head.
I am more familiar with the story which runs through the bible, than with individual verses, and the only way I can understand individual verses, is according to how they fit with the bible story.
According to my reading of the bible story, the covenant nation of Israel was an assembly of people, united by loving God and loving one another, and sovereign on the land between the Euphrates and the Nile.
Covenant Israel has not existed since it split up at the end of Solomon's reign, because it no longer loved God, or loved one another.
The two nations resulting from the split of Israel, were not able to repent, because they remained enemies till their own destruction.
God's plan to bless all the nations of the world, is dependant on covenant Israel's repentance, so that God can make Israel a great nation again.
Those who believe the good news that the kingdom of Israel will be resurrected from the dead, become Israelites in spirit, and they are watching, waiting, and preparing, for the messiah, who will come to resurrect the kingdom of his father David.
When covenant Israel is finally resurrected from the dead, God will, by His grace, requiring nothing from Israel, make a new everlasting covenant with Israel, the result of which is God writing His laws on the hearts of Israel, so that Israel will forever do by nature, the things contained in His laws, thus fulfilling forever, the everlasting(old) covenant, and all the other promises of God.
I can only understand individual verses in the context of the story which runs through the bible.
What do you think?

[Ken1Burton]

Provoker.

God wanted to reveal Himself to Mankind, He chose Abraham, Working with Abraham, He grew in knowledge with more and more people. By the time of Jacob with his 12 Children, God sent them into Egypt. Where a lot of the World was gathered because of the Famine.

There using Joseph, He showed Himself through the Children of Israel unto a much larger portion of mankind. Though Egypt had many gods, He showed them what the only Real God was like.

Bringing the Children of Israel out of Egypt, Giving them laws to show them Himself, and how they should be to others. no matter how many times Israel rejected God, God dealt with them, But never totally rejected Israel, and never has.

Bring in Israel to the promise land. God then delivers them to Babylon. Also where most of the world has be gathered. Showing more and more people that He alone is God. And desires a relationship with man.

In 70 years in Babylon, God showed His power in many ways, and mainly in protecting those He loved. And even having their enemy send them back to Israel to rebuild the Temple. God has scattered them, and Gathered them time and time again. Each time showing Himself to more and more people.

As the Children of Israel grew and multiplied, Many prophets foretold of events, Many of a Messiah which would come. How God would deal with mankind through Him. Israel got in trouble a lot, and God would sent them a deliverer. Over and Over, But spoke of one who would deliver them, once and for all time to be God’s chosen people. The Messiah, the Christ.

But the Messiah was to come, But Israel would not see Him as the Messiah. God would blind Israel for a time.

(ISAIAH 29:10) For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of
deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your
rulers, the seers hath he covered. (KJV)
(ISAIAH 29:11) And the vision of all is become unto you as the
words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is
learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot;
for it is sealed: (KJV)
(ISAIAH 29:12) And the book is delivered to him that is not
learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not
learned. (KJV)

God said through Malachi, He would send Elijah, then what Christians call 400 Silent years. But it has be 2400 Silent years to the Jewish Nation.

The Messiah Came, He fulfilled every jot and tittle, But Israel did not see. The vision had been sealed by God.

When Jesus said “No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.”, Scripturally they were slain. For Salvation by belief was a Covenant. God voided that Covenant. He did it under the law also. God likened Jesus to His wife, and the Covenant or vow of a wife could be disallowed by the Husband under the law.

(ISAIAH 62:5) For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy
sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so
shall thy God rejoice over thee. (KJV)

(PSALMS 89:35) Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie
unto David. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:36) His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as
the sun before me. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:37) It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as
a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:38) But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been
wroth with thine anointed. (KJV)
(PSALMS 89:39) Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant:
thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground. (KJV)

The Covenant of belief had to be broken, God concludes ALL in unbelief, so He may have Mercy on all. They could not come to Jesus, God blinded them from seeing Jesus is the Messiah.

The Jewish Nation have a job, and they have done it well. They are Witnesses to Jesus Christ (But they do not know it) They have kept the books we call the Old Testament, The Jewish Holy Scriptures. They are intact and not changed to fit Jesus. This is their witness, Had they followed Jesus, Their witness would not be reliable.

There are two different groups in the book of Revelation, Both keep the commandments of God. But they are not the same.

(REVELATION 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and
went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (KJV)

The Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 is the Nation of Israel, the 12 Stars are the 12 Children of Jacob. The Moon is under her feet. The Moon seen in Psalms 89:37 is likened to the Establishment of the Throne. Israel is who God used to offer the Lamb for the sins of the world. The Moon is turned into blood as the Blood of Christ establishes the throne. The Jewish nation has the TESTIMONY of Jesus which is the old Testament.

The other group are Christians, these have the FAITH of Jesus.


(REVELATION 14:12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are
they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (KJV)

God speaks in Similitudes, One was for Israel to Follow the ARK into the promise land:

(JOSHUA 3:3) And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the
ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the
Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go
after it. (KJV)
(JOSHUA 3:4) Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about
two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may
know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way
heretofore. (KJV)

The Similitude is for “When you see the ARK who is Jesus Christ, and the Levite or Priests bearing Him up on a Cross at Golgotha, Follow after Him, But stay back 2,000 years. The Cross was in 29 A.D. The Alarm clock from the Deep sleep is set for 2029 A.D.

It will be proceeded by burning of weapons for seven years, Every argument against Jesus being the Messiah will be consumed by God’s word like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29. Then for seven months they will bury the bones, or every prophecy will be put into it’s place.

(EZEKIEL 39:9) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go
forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields
and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and
the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 39:10) So that they shall take no wood out of the field,
neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the
weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them,
and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 39:11) And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will
give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the
passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of
the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his
multitude: and they shall call it the valley of Hamongog. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 39:12) And seven months shall the house of Israel be
burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. (KJV)

We have had the Messiah for almost 2,000 years. We are the ones who spoiled them, We are about to be spoiled ourselves. What they come up with, Will stop up a lot of our noses. We do not have what we think we do. We have not put the Scriptures together right. They will.

Not only will they put it together right, But most of the World will follow. That is seen in Ezekiel’s temple vision, that is also dated for 2029 ad. As a river measured at 4 1,000 cubit measurements. The day of the cross seen as 2,000 years in Psalms 90:4. Then 2,000 to 2029 A.D.

When Israel sees Jesus is the Messiah in Scripture, it is likened to the waters covering the sea, The people as waters:

(ISAIAH 11:9) They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy
mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea. (KJV)

Here is the 4,000 cubit measurement, 2029 ad, Fishers of Men, Get the Biggest nets you can. A few will be left as holdouts so we do not put away our Bibles.

(EZEKIEL 47:8) Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward
the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea:
which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:9) And it shall come to pass, that every thing that
liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall
live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because
these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and
every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:10) And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall
stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place
to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds,
as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. (KJV)
(EZEKIEL 47:11) But the miry places thereof and the marishes
thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt. (KJV)

The Woman in Revelation chapter 12 is kept from seeing the Serpent for Time, Times, and the Dividing or half a time, WHO CAN ISRAEL NOT SEE? Here is why the smell might bother a few noses, God uses that which is despised.

(1CORINTHIANS 1:28) And base things of the world, and things which
are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to
bring to nought things that are: (KJV)

Time=Creation story in 3975 B.C. till the Baptism in 25 A.D. or 4,000 years
Times is the day of the Cross as 2,000 years
Dividing or half a time is the Cross in 29 A.D. Till 2029 A.D. or 2,000 years from seeing Jesus is the Christ.

(JOHN 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (KJV)
(JOHN 3:15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but
have eternal life. (KJV)

Ken

[Provoker]

Hello Ken:
The story as you tell it, sounds very familiar to me, but much of it does not fit with the context of bible story.

no matter how many times Israel rejected God, God dealt with them, But never totally rejected Israel, and never has.
Anytime Israel rejected God, God turned His face away from Israel(rejected Israel) until such time as Israel repented. God was obliged to do this because of the terms of the everlasting covenant He had made with Israel.
The last time that Israel rejected God, was when it ceased to love one another, became divided, and split into two enemy nations.
Because Israel had split into two enemy nations, which both went to their destruction without ever repenting and becoming one nation again, God's face has been turned away since the death of Solomon, and the fall of national Israel. Since then, national Israel has only existed in the hearts and minds of the body of people which watchs, waits, and prepairs, for the coming of the Christ, who will lead it to kingdom resurrection.
The apostolic church existed for the purpose of building that body to a size large enough to successfully re-possess the promised land, resurrecting the Davidic kingdom, as prophesied.
Bring in Israel to the promise land. God then delivers them to Babylon. Also where most of the world has be gathered. Showing more and more people that He alone is God. And desires a relationship with man.
When the subjects of the kingdom of Judah(not Israel) were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar, it was not deliverance, but simply the result of God having turned His face away from the children of Israel.
In 70 years in Babylon, God showed His power in many ways, and mainly in protecting those He loved. And even having their enemy send them back to Israel to rebuild the Temple. God has scattered them, and Gathered them time and time again. Each time showing Himself to more and more people.
It was more like 40 years. God still had His face turned away, Cyrus of Persia was not their enemy, and he didn't send them anywhere. Cyrus simply ended their captivity. The majority of them stayed in Babylon, the next largest group went north into Asia Minor and Europe, and a relatively small group went to Palestine.
The temple that Cyrus helped them build, was not God's temple, because God's temple was the seat of God's government, but Persia was their ruler, not God, who still had his Face turned away from them. The Jews were allowed to govern themselves and have a temple, to make their living on Persian land seem like they were a Jewish nation. It was for the purpose of suppressing Jewish nationalism, and it worked, because the Judean Jews backslid from faith in the good news of the kingdom.
As the Children of Israel grew and multiplied, Many prophets foretold of events, Many of a Messiah which would come. How God would deal with mankind through Him. Israel got in trouble a lot, and God would sent them a deliverer. Over and Over, But spoke of one who would deliver them, once and for all time to be God’s chosen people. The Messiah, the Christ.
The one and only messianic prophesy was made while the Jews were captive in Babylon, and it predicted that the kingdom of David would again be ruled by a son of David, and the Jews at that point became "messianic", which in Greek, is "Christian".
The gospel of the kingdom which John the baptist and Jesus proclaimed, was simply a reiteration of that messianic prophecy, because they were attempting to revive the spirit of the kingdom, among the backslidden Judean Jews.
But the Messiah was to come, But Israel would not see Him as the Messiah. God would blind Israel for a time.
Israel did not exist, but the Jews who were "spiritual Israel" saw Jesus as the coming messiah.
The chief priests and Pharisees saw Jesus as someone who might attempt to overthrow Rome, and endanger all the Jews, so they had Jesus killed(John 11 + 12).
The Messiah Came, He fulfilled every jot and tittle, But Israel did not see. The vision had been sealed by God.
Jesus did not fufill anything. He simply preached about the new covenant which will come into effect when the kingdom is resurrected, and will fulfill the everlasting(old) covenant forever. Israel did not exist in Jesus' day, except in spirit.

Maybe we should discuss the old covenant which God made with Israel, to find out what the purpose of the old covenant is, what the obligation of both parties is, also to confirm that the old covenant is everlasting, and that God cannot lie.
Because the story as you tell it, tends to ignore everything the bible teaches us about the old covenant, and one cannot understand the new covenant, if he doesn't understand the old.
What do you think Ken?

[Ken1Burton]

Provoker.

You have ONE prophecy for the Messiah?

There is a problem with an Everlasting covenant. WHICH Everlasting? “From Everlasting, to Everlasting.”

Like “For ever and ever.”

Like Time, Times and the Dividing of time.

“For ever” was a very long day. It started at Sunset when Jesus and the Disciples started the Last Supper. It ended at Sunset when Jesus had just been placed in the Sepulchre.

“For ever and ever is the day of the cross and everlasting future.

Before the day of the cross was Everlasting past. That is where the Everlasting covenant with Israel belonged.

Jesus who is David’s son, Born outside wedlock, died 7 days after Birth, Reborn the first begotten of the dead (Revelation 1:5) 1,000 years later. the day of the Cross is the House of David, and He is AS GOD.

(ZECHARIAH 12:8) In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants
of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be
as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of
the Lord before them. (KJV)

As Jesus will be dead part of the day, He is also seen as the Angel of the Lord. So “From Everlasting to Everlasting (or the day of the cross in between the two) Thou (Jesus) art God.

The Old Covenant was based on God’s laws. The New Covenant is based on Grace. As the law justified no man, There was a need for a new Covenant.

Write what is in your heart, we will go from there.

Ken

[Provoker]

Hello Ken:
How long was the everlasting(old) covenant to last?
It obviously did not end every time Israel broke it, because every time Israel repented, God forgave His covenant people...Israel, and Israel continued according to God's everlasting covenant plan(becoming a great nation, in order to become a blessing to all the nations of the world).
Israel ceased to be "A" people, by splitting into two separate enemy peoples which obviously did not "love God and love one another", and remained unrepented to their destruction. Did the old covenant end at that point, or did it continue to exist, simply waiting for Israel's repentance?
This is not a question which can be simply answered by quoting a single verse, it can only be answered by understanding the story that the bible tells(bible context).
Israel could not repent because it no longer existed, so the fist thing on the repentance agenda, and the continuance of God's covenant plan to bless all the nations of the world, is the resurrection of Israel from the dead.
Christianity correctly teaches that Jesus did not come to resurrect the literal kingdom of David, but that the kingdom he did bring was spiritual, but that is as far as the church's truth about Jesus goes.
Jesus, like John the baptist, was preparing the way for the messiah, by proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews who had backslidden from faith in kingdom resurrection. In order for the coming messiah to resurrect the Davidic kingdom, he will require large body of people which is motivated to resurrect the kingdom. People who are motivated to resurrect the kingdom, have the spirit of the kingdom in their hearts, and are therefore; spiritual Israel, the spiritual kingdom, and the body of Christ, and they are watching, waiting, and preparing, for the coming of the messiah.
So Jesus was indeed establishing a spiritual kingdom, but only because that is necessary in order to resurrect the literal kingdom.
The only people who would have been interested in such a misinterpretation of Jesus' mission, were the Romans, who wanted to find a way to suppress the constant rebellion of Jews who were zealous for the kingdom. If the zealots could have been convinced that the kingdom resurrection they sought was actually a spiritual kingdom, they would have laid down their arms, and become good Roman citizens.
If you read the story that John 11+12 tells, you will find that the chief priests and Pharisees had Jesus killed, because they were afraid that if he got a large enough following, he would march on Rome, and then the Romans would come to Jerusalem and destroy all the Jews, thus causing the chief priests and Pharisees to lose their place(jobs).
Jesus was not David's son, but he would have received that title if he had resurrected the kingdom and ascended David's throne. The messiah who resurrects the kingdom, will be Solomon's immediate successor on David's throne, and will receive Solomon's titles: Son of David, Son of God, etc...