Anyone have any experience with Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel?

[Piebald]

I used to "study" with the Shepherd's chapel when I was first converting/reconverting to Christianity.

When I got the internet, though, I was able to do my own research, and I found most of the Shepherd's Chapel's teachings to be terribly corrupt, and in line with the Christian Identity movement.

Anyone else familliar with them?

[brother vinny]

I used to "study" with the Shepherd's chapel when I was first converting/reconverting to Christianity.

When I got the internet, though, I was able to do my own research, and I found most of the Shepherd's Chapel's teachings to be terribly corrupt, and in line with the Christian Identity movement.

Anyone else familliar with them?

CARM has a listing of their teachings, (http://www.carm.org/chapel/serpent_seed.htm) which place them (and thus, this thread) outside the pale of orthodox Christianity.

[Piebald]

Vinny, can you report this thread? I can't report my own thread. Please report it and have it moved to Unorthodox-Land

[Sparko]

Moved to Unorthodox Theology

[brother vinny]

The Guest of Honor hasn't showed. Wonder if he knows the gig is up?

[Krusader]

Murray's doctrine of the "serpent seed," is also found among Branhamites, the followers of the Oneness evangelist, William Branham, whose followers believe he is the 7th Angel of the Book of Revelation.

The serpent seed doctrine is a terrible distorition of Genesis - and although I don't think it is actually Identity movement, it is related in some ways.

[Piebald]

The identity movement embraces it because it gives them a rationalization for anti-semitism. The people we call "Jews" are actually evil kenites, whereas the Whites In Britain and the U.S. are the true Israel.

[Krusader]

The identity movement embraces it because it gives them a rationalization for anti-semitism. The people we call "Jews" are actually evil kenites, whereas the Whites In Britain and the U.S. are the true Israel.

I don't think the Branhamites are into the British Isrealite thing - which I've often thought of as really strange (although, the Mormons seem to consider themselves Ephramites!).

Did Murray teach that all Jews were Kenites, or simply some?

[Sparko]

Murray's doctrine of the "serpent seed," is also found among Branhamites, the followers of the Oneness evangelist, William Branham, whose followers believe he is the 7th Angel of the Book of Revelation.

The serpent seed doctrine is a terrible distorition of Genesis - and although I don't think it is actually Identity movement, it is related in some ways.

Actually the Branhams think that he was one of the two witnesses in Revelation. I know the son of William Branham. Their headquarters is about 3 miles from here.

[Krusader]

Actually the Branhams think that he was one of the two witnesses in Revelation. I know the son of William Branham. Their headquarters is about 3 miles from here.

I never heard the fact that he was one of the two witnesses. The book I have at home on him, and the local sect, also agree that he's the 7th angel of the Book of Revelation. Actually, we have two separate groups here, so maybe there is some variation.

One thing I know for sure, they are very assertive regarding their Oneness doctrine.

[Piebald]

Did Murray teach that all Jews were Kenites, or simply some?


He was always purposely vague. People have documented him more or less saying it -- that the Jews in Israel are not really Jews at all. Whenever he is questioned on anti-semitism, he will say "I would never badmouth my brother Judah." .. of course, who he considered his "brother Judah" is also unknown. I suspect that "brother Judah" is actually just a subset of White Christians that he considers descended from the tribe of Judah. So he plays a semantic shellgame in order to escape criticism of anti-semitism.

[Pythagoras]

Holding's followers are a peculiar bunch indeed-- hamster ,Jonnny Eccentric, alley cat, fat pig or something, crazy foxy, and other such misfits.

it must be the trinitarian fountain they drink from .

No offense,

[Piebald]

Holding's followers are a peculiar bunch indeed-- hamster ,Jonnny Eccentric, alley cat, fat pig or something, crazy foxy, and other such misfits.

it must be the trinitarian fountain they drink from .

No offense,


Pythagoras your lunatic non sequitors are adorable

[Krusader]

Pythagoras your lunatic non sequitors are adorable

Pyth can find some kind of Trinitarian conspiracy in anything!

[Piebald]

He sees trinitarianism everywhere except where it's most apparent: In the Bible.

But let's not let him turn troll this thread by taking it off topic.

[Krusader]

He sees trinitarianism everywhere except where it's most apparent: In the Bible.

But let's not let him turn troll this thread by taking it off topic.

Okay. Did Arnold Murray teach the Triune Godhead, or was he Oneness?

[Bill the Cat]

Holding's followers are a peculiar bunch indeed-- hamster ,Jonnny Eccentric, alley cat, fat pig or something, crazy foxy, and other such misfits.

it must be the trinitarian fountain they drink from .

No offense,
Alley cat? That's the best you could come up with? Heck, Troy's Bill the Gnat was FAR better. If you can top his nickname for my user name, I'll give you 3 pearls.

Until then, may I offer you a glass of water??

[Piebald]

Okay. Did Arnold Murray teach the Triune Godhead, or was he Oneness?
Frankly, I don't think Arnold Murray could theologize his way out of a paper bag. He definitely believes that Jesus Christ is God, however, he says that God has "three offices" -- he doesn't use the term "persons." He says that he doesn't reject the Trinity, but he still uses "offices" and not "persons," which leads many to believe that he is oneness. To be honest, I think he just made up his own theology which resembles trinitarianism. He never/rarely uses language of a learned Christian theologian. Not that a good teacher has to use sentences loaded with 20 dollar words, but I am highly suspicious that he just kind of makes it up as he goes a long.

Whenever he gets chided for being ignorant or criticized, he falls back on the common "I don't answer to the words of men" or "The traditions of men!"



I teach YHVH ("I Am That I Am" and Hebrew for the Sacred Name of God), Yahshua (Hebrew for God's Saviour Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. When you speak the Truth it is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself through you. Matthew 10:20 explicitly says "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." The meaning, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit as in Mark 13:11 which notes, "but when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do you premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost (Spirit)." I make no apology for teaching the Godhead in this manner, and I certainly do not need an endorsement or approval or further interpretation of my words from any man or group of research witch hunters.

[Cynic Sage]

Holding's followers are a peculiar bunch indeed-- hamster ,Jonnny Eccentric, alley cat, fat pig or something, crazy foxy, and other such misfits.

it must be the trinitarian fountain they drink from .

No offense,

Where the heck did THAT come from? :hrm:

[Krusader]

Frankly, I don't think Arnold Murray could theologize his way out of a paper bag. He definitely believes that Jesus Christ is God, however, he says that God has "three offices" -- he doesn't use the term "persons." He says that he doesn't reject the Trinity, but he still uses "offices" and not "persons," which leads many to believe that he is oneness. To be honest, I think he just made up his own theology which resembles trinitarianism. He never/rarely uses language of a learned Christian theologian. Not that a good teacher has to use sentences loaded with 20 dollar words, but I am highly suspicious that he just kind of makes it up as he goes a long.

Whenever he gets chided for being ignorant or criticized, he falls back on the common "I don't answer to the words of men" or "The traditions of men!"

The use of the term "offices" and non-use of the term "Persons," means this guy has redefined the Trinity to fit into Oneness theology. This coupled with his "serpent seed" doctrine leads me to believe that he has aligned with Branhamites somewhere along the line.

Many Branhamites are backwoods types, living in rural areas. Those drawn to this teaching do not usually come from theologically educated backgrounds, as far as I can tell. They are generally lured into the group because of its emotional appeal (it prophetic ministry, etc.), and adopt Oneness teaching because they don't really understand Trinitarian theology.

The Branhamite women wear dresses (always), and don't cut their hair. For the most part, they seem to me like Stepford wives. Is Murray into this as well?

[Piebald]

From what I could tell by watching the videos of his passover meetings, he didn't seem to be too controlling with what people wore. I don't recall him making any rules about clothing (he even argued that it was okay for women to wear pants from time to time).

He did believe in imposing the food laws of the OT, though, because he believed that "unclean" food would get you sick. He denies that the New Testament makes all foods clean.

[Krusader]

From what I could tell by watching the videos of his passover meetings, he didn't seem to be too controlling with what people wore. I don't recall him making any rules about clothing (he even argued that it was okay for women to wear pants from time to time).

He did believe in imposing the food laws of the OT, though, because he believed that "unclean" food would get you sick. He denies that the New Testament makes all foods clean.

Gee, sounds like a pick and choose type group! A little heresy here, a little there, mixed in with some Bible and there you go!

[Sparko]

I never heard the fact that he was one of the two witnesses. The book I have at home on him, and the local sect, also agree that he's the 7th angel of the Book of Revelation. Actually, we have two separate groups here, so maybe there is some variation.

One thing I know for sure, they are very assertive regarding their Oneness doctrine.

I just went to their website and they are claiming he is Elijah, come again. And I think I remember hearing someone say that Elijah would be one of the two witnesses in Revelation and mixed the two up in my head.

Basically they think he is the last prophet of God before Christ comes again.

www.branham.org

[Krusader]

I just went to their website and they are claiming he is Elijah, come again. And I think I remember hearing someone say that Elijah would be one of the two witnesses in Revelation and mixed the two up in my head.

Basically they think he is the last prophet of God before Christ comes again.

www.branham.org (http://www.branham.org)

Hey, thanks for the link, Sparko. I think Branham falsely prophesied the end of the world for sometime in the 70's.

One of my clients was employed by Branhamites. She felt very pressured to go to their church, even though she was an RC. She swore to me that the Branhamite men were always talking about polygamy being biblical. I researched it, and found a little bit on the net - but most of it was speculation. Do you know anything about that?

[Sparko]

no I haven't heard anything about Polygamy. But I do know that there are various splinter cults from the Branham's

[RumTumTugger]

Where the heck did THAT come from? :hrm:

A :troll: doesn't need a reason to to do his trolling Johnny you know that.

[Pythagoras]

What is this nonsense about "troll" and "trolling" ?

Isn't it a fact that holding's trinitarians are a bunch of misfits ? freaks. Why are they and their supporters getting upset?-- overreacting.


best wishes,

[Piebald]

Pythagoras, please limit your trolling to the intellectual wastelands that you call your threads, okay? Thanks, bye.

[RumTumTugger]

What is this nonsense about "troll" and "trolling"


:offtopic:
You tell us Pythagoras, it is you that keeps trying to hijack any thread you reply in no matter what topic is being discussed with your heretical nonsense like any other troll.

So why do you keep trollishly posting your heretical nonsense in threads on other topics hmm?

[Bill the Cat]

What is this nonsense about "troll" and "trolling" ?


If the shoe fits... Pythagoras = :troll2:


Isn't it a fact that holding's trinitarians are a bunch of misfits ?

mis·fit ( P ) Pronunciation Key (msft, ms-ft)
n.
Something of the wrong size or shape for its purpose.
One who is unable to adjust to one's environment or circumstances or is considered to be disturbingly different from others.

Trinitarians in the world = almost 1 Billion
Pythagoras' heretical bretheren = a WHOLE lot less

So you and those few who believe like you are "disturbingly different" which makes YOU the misfit.

[Sparko]

OK, this is semi official,

Everyone, Stop FEEDING the Troll.

Hamster has requested that Pythagoras stay out of his thread with his nonsense. Any further disruption by him will be reported for moderation.

[Rayado]

There is a wild audio clip (http://www.carm.org/chapel/arnold_murray.htm) on CARM's website of Murray actually threatening someone with a 9mm.

:eek:

[mfoster]

Arnold Murray's Shepherd's Chapel existed prior to the Christian Identity movement, so I would not want to call Murray a proponent of Identity theologies.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Murray and the leaders of the Christian Identity movement are cousins (a few times removed). They were influenced by some of the same thinkers, but each movement took their ideas in very different directions.

Mark Foster

[Piebald]

Arnold Murray's Shepherd's Chapel existed prior to the Christian Identity movement, so I would not want to call Murray a proponent of Identity theologies.

I think it would be more accurate to say that Murray and the leaders of the Christian Identity movement are cousins (a few times removed). They were influenced by some of the same thinkers, but each movement took their ideas in very different directions.

Mark Foster
Cousins is a good way to put it :smile: