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joelkaki
June 24th 2003, 12:23 AM
I asked for critique on one of my messages on Jeremiah 9:23-24 a while back in my "Good Sermons" thread, and due to comments there, comments elsewhere, and my own thinking and reading, I completely reworked that sermon. So, if any of you who critiqued last time would like to do so again, please do so. And any of you who did not, please do so as well. And please, only honest opinions are wanted.
Thanks.

JEREMIAH 9:23-24

There was once a brilliant young man who was born a little less than two hundred years ago. He was accepted into the United States Military Academy at West Point, and through his four years there, never received a single demerit. He graduated from West Point as one of the most promising young officers, and fought in Mexico in the mid-1800's. He distinguished himself there, and was, before the start of the Civil War, offered the command of the whole United States military by President Abraham Lincoln. Instead, though, he took command of the Confederate forces. He was a military genius, praised by men from both sides of the conflict as one of the best generals of all time. His name was Robert E. Lee. He was an incredibly wise general, a master tactician, a kind, thoughtful man who cared for the men who served under him.
Yet here is how he summed up himself, “I can only say that I am a poor sinner, trusting in Christ alone for salvation.” What a powerful testimony! He considered himself to be nothing special in himself, and said, “My chief concern is to be an humble, earnest Christian.” Here we have a man who was incredibly talented and gifted, but rather than boasting in those, said he was only a poor sinner, trusting in Christ alone for salvation. He knew God the Father through Jesus Christ the Son, and that the was the most important thing in all of life to him.

That is how we must also be. The most important thing in your life, the most important thing in my life, must be knowing God. I would like to look at a text of Scripture that tells us why knowing God must be so central to our lives as believers. That text is Jeremiah 9, verses 23 and 24.

Jeremiah 9
23 Thus saith the Lord, ‘Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth Me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness in the earth: for in these things I delight’, saith the Lord.

This text has come to be one of my favorite passages of Scripture. I love the way it presents its crucial and amazing message. It tells us in an authoritative and awe-inspiring way that the most important thing in our lives must be knowing God. It begins and ends with the solemn declaration, “Thus saith the Lord.” This is something of monumental importance, and it provides a solemn charge both to unbelievers and believers.
If you do not know the Lord, if you have not yet called out to Him to save you from your sins, then do so today, so that you may have the greatest thing in all the world at the center of your life. Your own accomplishments cannot save you; call out to Jehovah today and seek forgiveness for your sins.
But if you have trusted in Christ, then I want you to see today from this portion of God’s inspired word that you must able to echo Robert E. Lee’s words, and say, “I can only say that I am a poor sinner trusting in Christ alone for salvation,” and that your chief concern must be to be a humble, earnest Christian, seeking the Lord’s will. There are so many things going on in our lives sometimes, that we let ourselves get in the center. We oftentimes can become the focal point. What we have to do, what we want to do, what we want others to do for us can often become the most important thing to us. But I hope that you will the glory of God in all its fulness today from this text so that you can do other than make knowing God the most important thing in your life. The first reason, for you who have trusted in Christ today, to have knowing God at the center of your life is that

1. God loves you with a strong, everlasting love. God loves you with a strong, everlasting love. The text says he exercises lovingkindness. That means that he loves you with a strong, steadfast love. That is one of the greatest reasons for placing God at the focal point of your life. He exercises lovingkindness towards you. He chose you before the foundation of the world, in love He predestined you to be conformed to the image of His Son; because of His love he sent His Son to die on the cross for your sins, and because of His love He sent His Holy Spirit to call you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
I have memories of being a young child at church, and there would be times, usually on a Sunday evening, when we would have a hymn-sing. Everybody could ask for their favorites hymns. And many of those times, a child would ask for, “Jesus loves me.” “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so, little ones to Him belong, they are weak but He is strong. Yes, Jesus loves me, yes, Jesus loves me, yes Jesus loves me, the Bible tells me so.” That is so important for us as Christians to comprehend. Our God loves us; He extends lovingdindness toward us. And you know, it is not just love; it is strong, everlasting love. We are weak, but He is strong. And it is essential that He be strong, for we are not. He loves us, yes, but He also has the strength to back it up. We are weak, but He is strong. We are a frail people who sin all the day long.
Our family was having Bible time one night, and we were talking about sin. My dad asked us children how often we sin. Do we sin once in a while? And I replied, “No, we sin all day long all day strong.” My parents started laughing and asked why I put it like that. I told them that I had seen a commercial on TV for Aleve, the pain-killer, and in the advertisement, it said it works all day long, all day strong, and I carried that over into Bible time.
We do sin all day long and all day strong. But thanks be to God, He loved us even though we are sinners, and he has the strength to overcome sin, to overcome Death and the Devil. And He also loves us forever. God’s love for us His children will never waver, never fade, never diminish. It continues on unchanging, from eternity past to eternity future. And so knowing God must be the most important thing in your life and in mine because God God loves us with a strong, everlasting love. We can rest in that fact, and be assured that though we lose all our wisdom, though we lose all our might and all our strength, and become weaklings or invalids, and though we become the poorest people on the face of the planet, our God loves us with all the power of His majestic being for all eternity.
If you are an unbeliever today, and you don’t have that comfort, that knowledge that God loves you and that you are safe for all eternity in that love, then call on the Lord today. Admit you sin today before God, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross, and Call on His name to save you from your sin, and then you will have the richness of the lovingkindness of God envelope you for the rest of your days. Notice with me now another reason in this text. Not only because God loves us with a strong, everlasting love, but also

2. Because God judges. Because God judges? Hold it! Did I say that right? No, wait, there must be some mistake, that can’t be a reason for placing knowing God at the center of your life. God judges? That’s awful, that’s so...politically incorrect!
Well, it is Biblically correct. It is what Scripture tells us. We know a God who judges sin; a God who is just and acts in accord with that justice. And that is one of the most precious truths of the Bible. Many people want to forget about Hell, forget about justice and punishment, but they are missing out. Am I some morbid, perverted person for thinking so? I hope not.
Look at Galatians 6:14 for a moment:

Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in th cross of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Paul is saying here to boast in the death of Christ on the cross, to boast in the judgement he suffered on the cross. So here is why the judgement of God is so important: Your relationship with the Father is based on His judgement of the Son. Think about that for a moment. Your relationship with the Father is based on His judgement of the Son. Did the Father not execute justice, you would have no relationship with Him. Jesus Christ bore our sins, taking our punishment in our place, so that we we can have access to the Father.
God cannot stand sin. He cannot look on sin, and cannot have it in His presence. If He did not judge sin, then I have no hope of ever coming before His throne, because I sin alot. But all thanks and glory be to God, He judged His Son on my behalf, so that I am thereby able to come before the Father with the Lamb’s spotless garments around me.
Really, when you think about it, lovingkindness requires judgement along with it. If God didn’t judge, if we had no concept of God exercising justice and punishment toward sinners, then we could not fully grasp the greatness of his love. But when we see the awful wrath of God displayed in all its fierceness, the love of God towards us seems that much more wonderful. We can truly see how great God’s love for us is when we see that He punishment he inflicted on Christ. But now notice a third reason with me:

3. Because God applies righteousness to you. Because God applies righteousness to you. Have you ever been wronged by someone? Has someone ever acted unrighteously towards you? I’m sure that someone has before. But God never does. He never acts unrighteously. He never does anything wrong, and he never makes a mistake. And Jesus Christ embodied that righteousness when He came and lived on the earth for 33 years. He lived and died a perfect man who always acted righteously. But here is the exceedingly great part about that. Yes, God acts righteously towards you, but He also applies that righteousness to you. You are credited with that righteousness. Though you have at times gloried in other things, though you have gloried in wisdom, might, and riches, the Lord Jesus was completely righteous, and that righteousness is credited to your account. The Father made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). God’s righteousness stands over us because of the application of it to us by the death of Christ.
This application of the righteousness of God to you also must accompany judgement. For God to impute righteousness to you, so that you can stand as one blameless before Him, He had to judge Christ. So the three elements in this passage stand and fall together. Lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness are inextricably tied together. And it is interesting to realize that the whole gospel message is really given to us here in Jeremiah 9, though we may not see it at first glance. Note first of all that it forbids us to glory in earthly things. So it talks about our sin. Then it gets to the lovingkindness of God towards us, and then the judgement on Christ at His death on the cross, which placed our sins on Him, and His righteousness on us. And it tells us that our responsibility: to glory in knowing God. Our responsibility is to trust in the Savior who loves us, and who died for us. So even here in the Old Testament book of Jeremiah, foreshadowings of the coming work of the Messiah are clearly seen.

Now, Christian, is where the rubber meets the road. If God loves you with a strong, everlasting love; if He judged His own Son for your shortcoming and your sin, and if He credits you with His righteousness, then how can you make anything more important in your life than knowing that wonderful God? How can you let anything usurp that place in your life? I plead with you not to be enamored with your wisdom, your might, or your riches, because those never saved you in the first place; God did. Place Him at the center! Give Him all the importance, and all the honor and glory for ever and ever! The God who has done so much for you surely deserves to be the focal point of your life! Surely He is worth that! Read and study His word, communicate with Him in prayer, fellowship with His people, use your life, in whatever occupation you may have, to serve Him and to promote His glory! And I can tell you from personal experience that it will be the most rewarding experience of your life.
I have been a number of times now on mission trips to New York City, and those were the greatest experiences of my life. We passed out gospel tracts, ran a Vacation Bible School, shared the gospel with people on the streets, participated in worship services, had times of Bible study and prayer, and on those trips, the focal point was God and our relationship to Him. Those were the greatest times of my life, and I want you, if you have not already, to experience that intense and burning desire to have Christ at the center of your life.
Now, obviously, neither myself nor anyone else does this perfectly. There are definitely times when I become distracted, and I let other things push Christ out of the center. We can become distracted at times with our own accomplishemnts or talents, or own agenda. But we must fight against that, and strive to always have knowing God as the most important thing in our lives. Don’t let the other things in your life control your relationship with God; let your relationship with God control the other things in your life.
But there is a fourth and final reason why knowing God must be the most important thing in your life:

4. Because God works in your life and in the world. Because God works in your life and in the world. Notice the text says that God exercises His attributes in the earth. This is the part of the verse that should excite you in your everyday life. God exercises lovingkindness, judgement, and righteousness in your life every day. The blessings that are showered on you each day are from God.
But sin also has consequences. When you boast in yourself and are prideful, there are usually consequences. God may knock you down a peg or two in his justice. But God uses even that to drive you back to Himself. And you can know that all God does in your life is the right thing. Though we may cry foul, and complain that God is unfair, He’s not. You may not like every single little thing that happens in your life, but God uses them for good. And if you want to complain about the trials and testings in your life, and call them unfair, then rememeber that you don’t really deserve the good things either. If you call the seemingly bad things unfair, then it is only right that you call the good things unfair as well. But God is righteous. All that happens to you is righteous.
I’d like to look at another text for a moment in 1 Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 1
[i]26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--31 that, as it is written, ‘He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.’[/b]

This text in itself could be hours worth of speaking, but briefly there are some important things in it that help us to better understand Jeremiah 9. Paul obviously had Jeremiah 9 in mind when he was writing this, and notice that it really gives us the reason that we cannot glory or boast in ourselves. WE cannot be the most important thing in our lives, because we are nothing without God! Christ is the only one worth glory and honor and praise. It is the work of Christ’s Spirit in our lives that we are able to do any good at all. Wisdom, might, and riches cannot be the focus of our lives, because they cannot save us. It is God that called us apart from those things. And our chief concern must be to be a humble, earnest Christian--humble, because our accomplishments are not the greatest thing in the world, and earnest, because God wants no half-hearted Christians.
And this text offers great encouragement to those of us who aren’t particularly mighty, or wise, or rich, because it is God’s wisdom, God’s might, the riches of God’s grace that work in our lives. He can use you, and He can use me. No matter what your social position, no matter what your monetary or financial status is, no matter what you did in the past, and no matter anything else, God can use you! Apart from Him you and I can do nothing, but through Him and the enabling of His Spirit we can accomplish amazing things!
And when you think about it, you should realize that no other message in the world can tell you that same thing. The Bible is the only book of all time that can really tell you that you can be used no matter what your position is. In a world without the God of the Bible, if you are nothing, you are nothing; if you are despised, you are despised; if you are foolish, you are foolish; but with God, you can do great and mighty things. So knowing God must be the most important thing in your life because He can work in you and use you no matter who you are.
There was a man in our church who had, prior to becoming a Christian, a really rough life. I don’t even know the details, but suffice it to say that he had a hard life. One day, though, there was a knock at his door; it was his elderly neighbor. Our at the time unsaved friend said, “Hi! Can I help you with something?” This feeble, elderly old man stuttered, stumbling over his words, “I um, well um, you see um” and so on. “Well, what is it that you want?” “Would you like to go to a Bible study with me?” the elderly man said. The man consented, and within a week called on the name of the Lord and was saved. God can use even a stammering tongue, a feeble old man. And God can use you! He works in your life each and every day! Knowing Him and cultivating your relationship with Him should be the most important thing in your life, because through His working, your life can have meaning and purpose, and you can do great things.
God also works in the world. He works all around you every day. He is building His church and advancing His kingdom. He is restraining evil and Satan. And He is working everything out for His glory and our good. Every detail is in His control. And now notice the last part of verse 24, “For in these I delight, says the Lord.” God delights in loving you, in having a relationship with you, in acting righteously all the time, and in working in your life. Our only proper response then, can be to place knowing Him at the top of the priority list. The most important thing in your life must be knowing God.

This text in Jeremiah 9 contains many wonderful truths that hold the essence of the gospel, and essentials on why God should be at the center of our lives. There are 4 reasons: 1) Because God loves you with a strong, everlasting love. 2) Because God judges. 3) Because God applies righteousness to you. 4) Because God works in your life and in the world. I wonder if Robert E. Lee did not at some point in his life read these verses and use them as the basis for saying, “My chief concern is to be a humble, earnest Christian.” And we would do well not to boast in our own accomplishments and talents, and rather say with complete sincerity, “I can only say that I am a poor sinner, trusting in Christ alone for salvation."

Solly
July 9th 2003, 03:34 AM
Joel.

That's a good address, and to the point - can't fault the content; not all sweetness and light, which is also good.

The indiscriminate calls "If you do not know the Lord, if you have not yet called out to Him to save you from your sins, then do so today, so that you may have the greatest thing in all the world at the center of your life. Your own accomplishments cannot save you; call out to Jehovah today and seek forgiveness for your sins." would not pass muster in our own circles - how I remember one visiting preacher who tried it fish, but that is beside the point. I do think there should be some addressing of the context of the verse - I always make it my practice to address the context, if only in a paragraph's worth of material, that way people can see I'm not just hitting upon words that suit my theme, rather than finding the theme in the verse.
Good use of illustrations as well.

joelkaki
July 9th 2003, 12:09 PM
Thanks a bunch Solly. Those are definitely things that I need to think about.

Joel

joelkaki
July 10th 2003, 10:36 PM
The indiscriminate calls “ "If you do not know the Lord, if you have not yet called out to Him to save you from your sins, then do so today, so that you may have the greatest thing in all the world at the center of your life. Your own accomplishments cannot save you; call out to Jehovah today and seek forgiveness for your sins." ”

would not pass muster in our own circles - how I remember one visiting preacher who tried it fish, but that is beside the point.

Could you explain more what you mean about this?

Thanks,
Joel

joelkaki
July 19th 2003, 07:48 PM
*bump*

Jaltus
July 20th 2003, 12:09 AM
I can't help but think that this sermon should have a stronger thrust in the area of wisdom. You cover quite well who God is and what He does, but you need a little more focus on who the man is in relation to God and what man should strive for.

Thus, I think you could easily tie in major themes from Proverbs and Job without much change to your manuscript, but it would help push your congregation much more by giving them spcific ideas.

The fear of the Lord is a theme this sermon is crying out to address.

joelkaki
July 20th 2003, 03:36 PM
Thanks, Jaltus. I definitely need to think about those as well.
Though what do you mean exactly when you say it needs a stronger thrust in the area of wisdom?

Joel

ollie
July 22nd 2003, 02:00 PM
A great amount of words is not needed to sum up and say what God is saying in the following scriptures. These verses are self explanatory and say what they mean,

Jeremiah9: 23. Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24. But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in
these things I delight, saith the Lord.

Glory not in the things of yourself, but rather glory in the things of God!

joelkaki
July 22nd 2003, 02:48 PM
A great amount of words is not needed to sum up and say what God is saying in the following scriptures. These verses are self explanatory and say what they mean,

Jeremiah9: 23. Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24. But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in
these things I delight, saith the Lord.

Glory not in the things of yourself, but rather glory in the things of God!

So are you saying that I just expended a whole lot of worthless energy? I am rather confused by what you say. Do you not feel that even verses that seem self-explanatory should be preached, explained, exposited, communicated, etc?

Joel

Jaltus
July 23rd 2003, 11:08 AM
Joel,

What I mean is that you hint at wisdom and nibble around the edges of the concept, but you need to actually come right out and state what wisdom is, how one gains it, and then point to the relevant passages in scripture. You could even tie in a Christological reference if you are so inclined (though I would not say Jesus = wisdom, but I would say that true wisdom for us is following Jesus).

Solly
July 23rd 2003, 11:17 AM
07-11-2003 @ 03:36 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=146099#post146099)
joelkaki:

The indiscriminate calls “ "If you do not know the Lord, if you have not yet called out to Him to save you from your sins, then do so today, so that you may have the greatest thing in all the world at the center of your life. Your own accomplishments cannot save you; call out to Jehovah today and seek forgiveness for your sins." ”
would not pass muster in our own circles - how I remember one visiting preacher who tried it fish, but that is beside the point. ”

Could you explain more what you mean about this?

Thanks,
Joel

Sorry Joel, didn't see you had another question.

We are not a free offer denomination for a start, and do not hold to indiscriminate calls to believe; but particularly, I would not put them in the way you have, near the beginning of the sermon, rather than at the end. Without the work of the Holy spirit, nobody will be doing anything, but he certainly works upon material. The men we used to have usually did the same thing - blurted out their "call" and tried to back it up. If the Spirit is working upon people, then your sermon should direct them where to go, without having to make such statements that imply creature effort and a standing start in approaching God.

This text has come to be one of my favorite passages of Scripture. I love the way it presents its crucial and amazing message. It tells us in an authoritative and awe-inspiring way that the most important thing in our lives must be knowing God. It begins and ends with the solemn declaration, “Thus saith the Lord.” This is something of monumental importance, and it provides a solemn charge both to unbelievers and believers.
If you do not know the Lord, if you have not yet called out to Him to save you from your sins, then do so today, so that you may have the greatest thing in all the world at the center of your life. Your own accomplishments cannot save you; call out to Jehovah today and seek forgiveness for your sins.


If they have not been taught what this really means, you are perhaps deluding them that a simple call is enough - which is the curse of decisionism and the simplistic forms of gospel presentation around today; if you have taught them well, then this will follow as night follows day.

I realise our stance is against the stream in this day and age, but there you go.

slly5

Jaltus
July 23rd 2003, 11:22 AM
I agree, Solly.

Solly
July 24th 2003, 08:00 AM
:eek: Really?

:cheers: How about that. Calvinist and Arminian reaching out, building bridges together, forging a new community of...

...sorry, got carried away. Anyway, I am always pleased when you are pleased. It's a boost. :thumb:

/me says have some pearls too.

joelkaki
July 24th 2003, 03:08 PM
Solly:

Could you explain more what you mean about this?

Thanks,
Joel

Sorry Joel, didn't see you had another question.

No problem.


We are not a free offer denomination for a start, and do not hold to indiscriminate calls to believe; but particularly, I would not put them in the way you have, near the beginning of the sermon, rather than at the end. Without the work of the Holy spirit, nobody will be doing anything, but he certainly works upon material. The men we used to have usually did the same thing - blurted out their "call" and tried to back it up. If the Spirit is working upon people, then your sermon should direct them where to go, without having to make such statements that imply creature effort and a standing start in approaching God.

I see where you are coming from, and I guess really I agree to a certain extent. But thanks for making the point.


If they have not been taught what this really means, you are perhaps deluding them that a simple call is enough - which is the curse of decisionism and the simplistic forms of gospel presentation around today; if you have taught them well, then this will follow as night follows day.

I am very much against the "decisionism" of today as well. And I understand how what I put would seem to lean toward that view. Something for me to think about seriously.


I realise our stance is against the stream in this day and age, but there you go.

slly5

Hey, going against the stream in today's world is most often the way to go.

Joel

Solly
July 25th 2003, 03:20 AM
:thumb:

Isn't it nice we can talk about it without a schism too.

Robyn Banks
August 3rd 2003, 12:07 AM
joelkaki:
Now, Christian, is where the rubber meets the road
I don't think this sentence made sense.

Hope that helps.

Robyn Banks

joelkaki
August 7th 2003, 11:14 AM
08-02-2003 @ 11:07 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=165979#post165979)
Robyn Banks:


I don't think this sentence made sense.

Hope that helps.

Robyn Banks

Could you perhaps explain why it does not make sense to you? It is entirely possible that it doesn't, but I'm not seeing it at this point.

Thanks,
Joel

Robyn Banks
August 8th 2003, 06:36 AM
Robyn:
Now, Christian, is where the rubber meets the road
joelkaki:
Could you perhaps explain why it does not make sense to you?
It's not that it didn't make sense to me. It just didn't make gramamtical sense.

Taking out "Christian" you have "Now is where the rubber meets the road." Did you miss a "this" before "is"? Did you mean something else?

Robyn Banks

joelkaki
August 8th 2003, 01:25 PM
Oh, OK, I get it. Sorry--I'm a little on the slow side of things now--someone very close to me has been in the hospital for a week or so. Thanks for pointing that out.

Joel

SaintMorpheus
August 8th 2003, 04:20 PM
Joelkaki,

Thanks for submitting your sermon to critique.
I'm a nice guy, very pleasant most times; in fact, I generally am a people-pleaser (it's sort of a defene mechanism against insecurity, I suppose). But sometimes I feel a burden to say something, and that something is usually fairly harsh. I don't like to do it, because it ruins my Nice Guy image and sort of makes enemies, but I do it, because, like I say, I feel this Burden, and I don't want to be disobedient. This will be very harsh, but productive, I hope. (I really am sorry...I do not like to be the vessel of this message).

I think that was a terrible sermon. It's this kind of sermon that is 1. currently driving intelligent and conscious people to atheism or Eastern Orthodoxy (which is not necessarily bad, but it can be) or 2. currently allowing naive and unconscious christians to remain in their state of spiritual stupor and unbelief.

Your message is Man-centered rather than God-centered.

1. You equivocate "knowing God" with "trusting Jesus alone for salvation," as if knowing the Living God, the Great I AM, could be even remotely similar to having a mental feeling of certitude in your brain. God is real and alive.

2. You say over and over "The most important thing in our lives must be knowing God." Think about it: "The most important thing," as if the Christian life were about making a priorities list in which God was #1. God is not a "thing" or a "part" of your life. Christianity is not about self-help. It is about Reality. You don't organize all the little things in your life and make sure, like a good little boy, that God is at the top, because this will give you a happy little fulfilling life.
God IS your life. And if you fail to see that, you die.

3. You said: "[H]e loves you with a strong, steadfast love. That is one of the greatest reasons for placing God at the focal point of your life."
How about this: Christ is the Resurrected Son of the Living God, Who will come to judge the quick and the dead. That is THE greatest reason for placing yourself at His feet and submitting to His will.
What is this self-help theology? It's like saying : "God really likes you a lot and He will do nice things for you, so it is in your best interest to put Him at the center of your life."
As if we had a life to own!

4. "If you are an unbeliever today, and you don’t have that comfort..." The Christian life is not about comfort and self-help. Why all the focus on us us us? Your invitation should say: "If you are an unbeliever today, and you haven't had the opportunity to PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND DIE, then I invite you to fall at the feet of Christ and beg for mercy."

5. "Admit you sin today before God, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross, and Call on His name to save you from your sin, and then you will have the richness of the lovingkindness of God envelope you for the rest of your days."
This is meaningless Christianese. It will sound ludicrous to the unbelievers in the congregation; and as for the believers, it is something they have heard a million times since they were two years old. It will only perpetuate their slumber.

6. "God cannot stand sin. He cannot look on sin, and cannot have it in His presence."
Did not Christ walk the earth with sinners? Or do you not believe that He was God Incarnate?
You are using over-simplified and unbiblical analogies with which your congregation is comfortable. This is man-centered.

7. "He lived and died a perfect man who always acted righteously. But here is the exceedingly great part about that. Yes, God acts righteously towards you, but He also applies that righteousness to you. You are credited with that righteousness."

Yes, the "exceedingly great" part of Christ's unique righteousness is that God applies His righteousness to ME ME ME. Who the hell cares what Christ did, if it doesn't apply to ME ME ME ME ME.
Am I really "credited" with that righteousness? Like a bank account or something? You are using unbiblical metaphors with which your congregation is comfortable.

8. "Place Him at the center!" As if we are doing God a favor by believing in Him and prioritizing Him! We do not move God, God moves us. Follow God where He is going; do not try to take Him where you are going.

9. "We passed out gospel tracts, ran a Vacation Bible School, shared the gospel with people on the streets, participated in worship services, had times of Bible study and prayer, and on those trips, the focal point was God and our relationship to Him. Those were the greatest times of my life, and I want you, if you have not already, to experience that intense and burning desire to have Christ at the center of your life."

Man-centered. You had a good time, and now you want you congregation to experience the same range of emotions as you.

10. "Now, obviously, neither myself nor anyone else does this perfectly..."
Who cares about you?

11. "You may not like every single little thing that happens in your life, but God uses them for good..." Yes, comfort them, lull them to sleep. Help them ignore the 30,000 people who die of starvation every day. Let them assume their affluent Western lifestyle is close to Reality.

12. "No matter what your social position, no matter what your monetary or financial status is, no matter what you did in the past, and no matter anything else, God can use you! Apart from Him you and I can do nothing, but through Him and the enabling of His Spirit we can accomplish amazing things!"
Completely man-centered and unbiblical. Your perspective seems to be: I want to do great things. Hmm, what do I need to accomplish them? God. Ok, God, what I need you to do is..."
The writers of Scripture say that God does use us, not that God can use us, as if we are somehow using God to fulfill our potential, or as if we are doing God a favor when we act as instruments of His will. Our attitude should be "I am your handmaiden; let it be done to me as You have said."

I have a few more words:

1. THE message of the early Church was the Resurrection of Christ. Yet you do not mention it even once! This should be a warning sign for how far off track this sermon is. How can there possibly be a Gospel without the Resurrection? You talk as if all Christ came to do was die. This is far from reality.

2. "All that happens to you is righteous."
False. Evil happens, too.

"Without holiness no one will see the Lord."
Heb 12|14
Urge your congregation to repent. Be wary of lulling them into a false sense of security; many of them probably do not know God. Therefore, it is more beneficial to them to realize this than to blanket it.

Phew. I hope you have taken these words seriously. Again, I am sorry to bring such a harsh message. This is not personal in the least bit -- I don't even know you! I'm not judging you, but the content of your sermon.

In Christ,
St. M

p.s. Hopefully next time I'll be more pleasant :shrug:
p.p.s. This is my personal opinion -- your sermon is above average in relation to the others I've heard. I think the Church in the West is getting more and more ridiculous, so don't take that as a complement.

joelkaki
August 8th 2003, 05:07 PM
Thanks SM, for your comments. No offense taken at any of your comments. I will get back with you on how I view all that you have said. I may actually agree with some of it, but on the other hand, some I disagree with.

Thanks again,
Joel

SaintMorpheus
August 8th 2003, 05:41 PM
Joel,
I was worried you were going to be extremely frustrated with me. Thanks for not being defensive.
Yes, let's do discuss!
(at your leisure)
Peace in Christ,
Graham

joelkaki
August 8th 2003, 06:09 PM
Joel,
I was worried you were going to be extremely frustrated with me. Thanks for not being defensive.
Yes, let's do discuss!
(at your leisure)
Peace in Christ,
Graham

No problem. I will try to get back to you soon, but it may be a while, simply because I am supposed to be posting in my debate with GIOP soon, and that is delayed because of a tragedy in my family, and those two things have priority at the moment.

Joel

SaintMorpheus
August 8th 2003, 07:17 PM
Joel,
By all means, take your time. I think I have said all that I should have said (and probably more, unfortunately), so there is no sense of urgency on my part.
My sincere and heartfelt condolences with regard to your family tragedy. May you seek solace in the bosom of God and resist any temptation to excuse yourself.
In Christ,

PuritanD
August 16th 2003, 01:40 AM
Hey Joel,

I have finally got a chance to read your sermon. I am sorry to hear about your family emergency and will be praying.

You have greatly improved on your efforts and style. I have had the chance to read the critiques so far. Hopefully, I will not be repetitive.

Your introduction has greatly improved. I had read St. Matthew's critique and have notice some similar problems. However, I think that this could be easily cleared up. In the intro you state,

The most important thing in your life, the most important thing in my life, must be knowing God.

You may want to define exactly what you mean by the word, "knowing." As seen by Matthew's insights, it could be confussing to a congregation though many of us here probably understand what you are attempting to say. Also, you may want to clarify God. Are you talking about God the Father or all three?

If you do not know the Lord, if you have not yet called out to Him to save you from your sins, then do so today, so that you may have the greatest thing in all the world at the center of your life. Your own accomplishments cannot save you; call out to Jehovah today and seek forgiveness for your sins.

Again, you may want to define, "know." Also, the term, Jehovah, would be okay to use if your intent was not evangelistic. But judging from the context, you do make an appeal. I understand that we do not want to use terms redundantely and need to use similies, but in today's culture I think we could confuse a non-believer with such a term that only Christians use regularly.

There are so many things going on in our lives sometimes, that we let ourselves get in the center.

Using a phrase like, "so many things," is fairly vague and does not allow the congregation to engage with the thought but gloss over it. You may want to give concrete examples like retirement, education, job, etc.

But I hope that you will the glory of God in all its fulness today from this text so that you can do other than make knowing God the most important thing in your life.

I felt that this statement is quite awkward. I read it a couple of times and am uncertain as to what you are trying to say.

The introduction was done well. Your transition to the meat of the sermon is fairly smooth. You may want to tell the congregation exactly how many reasons you are giving, two, three, ect. It can help them keep with the flow of the argument. If they are not clear on this, it will be easier for them to wander and lose track of your thought process.

General Comments on the Body of the Sermon

Your first reason is good and I have no comments for it.

Between your points, it would be good to reiterate them when you transition to the next reason. Ex: First God loves with a strong, everlating love, Second we must place God central in our lives because He judges, and now third . . .. This helps review the main points and again help the congregation to keep themselves engaged.

I noticed that the next three reasons are not stated in complete thoughts, sentences. You may want to rework it. It would help make the transition from one reason to the next smoother.

I strongly suggest using more of an inclusive type of language. Try to refrain from using the terms, "you" and "me." It is better for us preacers to include ourselves. We are not trying to preach at the congregation but speak to both the congregation and ourselves. I would suggest using, "we" and "us" as much as possible. Of course, there are always exceptions, especially talking to a distinct group within the congregation (non-believers, youth, elders, etc.).

Under reason two

Did the Father not execute justice, you would have no relationship with Him. and We can truly see how great God's love for us is when we see that He punishment he inflicted on Christ.

Both of these statements seem to be a bit awkward and you may want to revise them.

Reason three

Are you trying to make a distinction between understanding and knowing God? This will have to do with how you define, "knowing." The last sentence in your first paragraph may need to be reworked by including the two previous reasons given. This may strenghten the point you are making by quoting 2 Cor. 5:21.

Reason four
I have been tossing back and forth between two ideas of just cutting this point out of the sermon all together or revising it. The biggest problem I see is that you are now not only exegetting Jer. 9 but also have to include your exegesis of 1 Cor 1:26-31. This can be very difficult to follow for a typical person in the congregation. They now have to keep Jer and 1 Cor in the front of their mind and keep the details straight. It could be an overload of information. Instead, you may want to use this as an appropriate time to draw out significant applications from the text and share them with the congregation. Jer. 9 seems to naturally have three solid reasons.

You can use 1 Cor as evidence to support the application without going into great detail about the passage without bogging down your listeners.

Overall

It is a great sermon. I think that it is exegetically sound, which is crucial. Most of the suggestions I have given are more tweeking the sermon than anything else. You have made many great points and I have found it to be a greatly edifying read for myself. Your sermon has greatly encourage me to seriously look at this passage again in a fresh way. Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.

PuritanD

GrayPilgrim
August 17th 2003, 09:48 AM
sorry it took me a few months to get to this sermon.

I would say that I disagree with Jaltus' advice about drawing in wisdom literature and such, as the prophets adn hte sages had different intents and purposes and thus you would miss the primary claim of this passage. Unlike Jaltus' advice, I would say make sure that you exalt God and make God's glory the central them of your message. Thus I woudl in fact expand on the point of God's judgment on those who do not know him

GP

joelkaki
August 18th 2003, 10:21 PM
Joelkaki,

Thanks for submitting your sermon to critique.
I'm a nice guy, very pleasant most times; in fact, I generally am a people-pleaser (it's sort of a defene mechanism against insecurity, I suppose). But sometimes I feel a burden to say something, and that something is usually fairly harsh. I don't like to do it, because it ruins my Nice Guy image and sort of makes enemies, but I do it, because, like I say, I feel this Burden, and I don't want to be disobedient. This will be very harsh, but productive, I hope. (I really am sorry...I do not like to be the vessel of this message).

As long as it is constructive criticism, with a view for to really help me or at least give your honest thoughts, I don't care. When I asked for critique, I didn't want some sweet little, "It was the best thing I've ever read" (while thinking on the other end of the computer screen--yuk!). I wanted honest critique that I hope will one day make me one who truthfully and powerfully communicates God's Word to His people.


I think that was a terrible sermon. It's this kind of sermon that is 1. currently driving intelligent and conscious people to atheism or Eastern Orthodoxy (which is not necessarily bad, but it can be) or 2. currently allowing naive and unconscious christians to remain in their state of spiritual stupor and unbelief.

Your message is Man-centered rather than God-centered.

1. You equivocate "knowing God" with "trusting Jesus alone for salvation," as if knowing the Living God, the Great I AM, could be even remotely similar to having a mental feeling of certitude in your brain. God is real and alive.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Knowing God is trusting Jesus alone for salvation, but indeed such trust doesn't stop there. It means putting Christ at the center of your life, indeed, to be the basis for your very existence, and your union with Him should drive you to know Him more every day.
So yes, maybe I should have brought out more the point that knowing God is a process in our Christian lives. It is not just a one time "decision" in our minds, but rather that when we trust in Him, we must focus on knowing Him more in our daily lives. Though I did try to bring that out, but I may have failed.


2. You say over and over "The most important thing in our lives must be knowing God." Think about it: "The most important thing," as if the Christian life were about making a priorities list in which God was #1. God is not a "thing" or a "part" of your life. Christianity is not about self-help. It is about Reality. You don't organize all the little things in your life and make sure, like a good little boy, that God is at the top, because this will give you a happy little fulfilling life.
God IS your life. And if you fail to see that, you die.

Yes, looking back, I really don't like that wording. But I really was trying to bring out the point that God IS your life. Notice also that that language was not all that I used. I also said things like place him at the center of your life and make him the focal point of your life--meaning of course that everything flows from your relationship to Him, a point I did bring out in some way at least when I said, "Don't let the other things in your life control your relationship with God. Let your relationship with God control the other things in your life." (off my memory--didn't look at exact quote).
But I see your point, and I don't really like using "thing" either.


3. You said: "[H]e loves you with a strong, steadfast love. That is one of the greatest reasons for placing God at the focal point of your life."
How about this: Christ is the Resurrected Son of the Living God, Who will come to judge the quick and the dead. That is THE greatest reason for placing yourself at His feet and submitting to His will.

That is true, but that is not what the text I was basing the message off of said. My main points were not made up out of thin air. I sought to find them in the text. I could come up with all sorts of other reasons to do so, but they are not in the text, thus they are included.


What is this self-help theology? It's like saying : "God really likes you a lot and He will do nice things for you, so it is in your best interest to put Him at the center of your life."
As if we had a life to own!

That's not exactly what I was saying. It was more along the lines of God has done wondrous things on your behalf already, so focus your life around your relationship with him.
Correct, we don't have a life to own, but that doesn't mean that Scripture does not give reasons from the very character of God's actions and stance toward us that should cause us to want to know him more.


4. "If you are an unbeliever today, and you don’t have that comfort..." The Christian life is not about comfort and self-help. Why all the focus on us us us? Your invitation should say: "If you are an unbeliever today, and you haven't had the opportunity to PICK UP YOUR CROSS AND DIE, then I invite you to fall at the feet of Christ and beg for mercy."

The Christian life is no, not about personal comfort in the physical world. But the point is, the Christian has the comfort of the peace of God which passes all understanding by which he is able to sustain life's rigors.
I understand your point though. And perhaps both should be there.


5. "Admit you sin today before God, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross, and Call on His name to save you from your sin, and then you will have the richness of the lovingkindness of God envelope you for the rest of your days."
This is meaningless Christianese. It will sound ludicrous to the unbelievers in the congregation; and as for the believers, it is something they have heard a million times since they were two years old. It will only perpetuate their slumber.

Obviously this is not aimed at believers, and they can probably manage to stay awake through a sentence calling unbelivers to faith in Christ.
How unbelivers hear it...you may have a pretty good point there. Something I will take note of in the future.


6. "God cannot stand sin. He cannot look on sin, and cannot have it in His presence."
Did not Christ walk the earth with sinners? Or do you not believe that He was God Incarnate?
You are using over-simplified and unbiblical analogies with which your congregation is comfortable. This is man-centered.

Perhaps, yes, they are not good phrases to use, considering they could potentially cause confusion, but I hardly see how it is man-centered. I wasn't trying to tickle people's ears with it or something, I was just trying to get across God's displeasure with sin. But yes, I will be more careful about using commonly used phrases without considering their implications in a message.


7. "He lived and died a perfect man who always acted righteously. But here is the exceedingly great part about that. Yes, God acts righteously towards you, but He also applies that righteousness to you. You are credited with that righteousness."

Yes, the "exceedingly great" part of Christ's unique righteousness is that God applies His righteousness to ME ME ME. Who the hell cares what Christ did, if it doesn't apply to ME ME ME ME ME.

Hold it. I don't have a problem with you critiquing things. And I don't have a problem with you expressing displeasure with the way things are stated. But I don't think your use of language at the beginning of the last sentence is appropriate nor fitting for a Christian, and I would appreciate you not using such.
Now, as to your point.


Am I really "credited" with that righteousness? Like a bank account or something? You are using unbiblical metaphors with which your congregation is comfortable.

Yes, I believe we really are credited with that righteousness. Like in a legal setting. God looks at us and does not see our sin, but rather sees Christ's righteousness.
I really don't see that there was a problem with what I was saying at this point. It would have been man-centered if it had been talking about how great man is for something that man had done, etc. But it is not. It is saying how great it is that a righteous and holy God applies His righteousness to us, undeserving sinners.


8. "Place Him at the center!" As if we are doing God a favor by believing in Him and prioritizing Him! We do not move God, God moves us. Follow God where He is going; do not try to take Him where you are going. [quote]

I'm afraid I don't see how your concern here is legitemate. All I am saying is that God must be the center point of our life, that permeates through all that we do, and thus our lives must be focused on him. And I don't see how what I said makes it seem like we're trying to take God where we're going rather than following Him.

[quote]
9. "We passed out gospel tracts, ran a Vacation Bible School, shared the gospel with people on the streets, participated in worship services, had times of Bible study and prayer, and on those trips, the focal point was God and our relationship to Him. Those were the greatest times of my life, and I want you, if you have not already, to experience that intense and burning desire to have Christ at the center of your life."

Man-centered. You had a good time, and now you want you congregation to experience the same range of emotions as you.

Is it wrong to want other sincere Christians to experience the same GODLY, desire that I have? This is not about emotions. This is about getting your life where it should be with God as the one who controls your life and is Lord of it, and where your ultimate delight is in Him.
It seems more God-centered to me, because I want people to have what God has said that we should have--knowing him be the ultimate "glory" in our lives.


10. "Now, obviously, neither myself nor anyone else does this perfectly..."
Who cares about you?

I don't know that anyone does, but the point of using "myself" there was to show that I am not saying that I am some super-Chrstian example that all need to bow down before because I have the desire to serve Christ. Plus it makes it more personal--preaching rather than lecturing--IMHO.


11. "You may not like every single little thing that happens in your life, but God uses them for good..." Yes, comfort them, lull them to sleep. Help them ignore the 30,000 people who die of starvation every day. Let them assume their affluent Western lifestyle is close to Reality.

I'm afraid I don't see how that is to lull them to sleep. It should rather get them to see the wondrous glory of God manifested in the way he works in their lives. Nor do I see how that would cause them to ignore those who starve. Rather, if they are so grateful to God for their own salvation and the benefits he showers on them, then perhaps they would serve Him by taking food and the gospel to those who are hurting in other countries.


12. "No matter what your social position, no matter what your monetary or financial status is, no matter what you did in the past, and no matter anything else, God can use you! Apart from Him you and I can do nothing, but through Him and the enabling of His Spirit we can accomplish amazing things!"
Completely man-centered and unbiblical. Your perspective seems to be: I want to do great things. Hmm, what do I need to accomplish them? God. Ok, God, what I need you to do is..."
The writers of Scripture say that God does use us, not that God can use us, as if we are somehow using God to fulfill our potential, or as if we are doing God a favor when we act as instruments of His will. Our attitude should be "I am your handmaiden; let it be done to me as You have said."

I'm afraid I just blatantly have to disagree. People have serious needs and serious hurts. And Scripture is what heals them and sets them on the right path of serving the Lord. And Scripture says that God uses even the lowest of the low. So my point to them is that even if they think that their lives are worthless and have no meaning and that they can never do anything good, it is not true when there is repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, for he uses even the worst of sinners. God works in our lives all the time and he can and will use us.


I have a few more words:

1. THE message of the early Church was the Resurrection of Christ. Yet you do not mention it even once! This should be a warning sign for how far off track this sermon is. How can there possibly be a Gospel without the Resurrection? You talk as if all Christ came to do was die. This is far from reality.

Valid point. Especially in the call to unbelievers that should have been mentioned.
However, the point of Christ's righteousness does hint at it, but yes that should be pointed out clearly.


2. "All that happens to you is righteous."
False. Evil happens, too.

It is all righteous in the sense that it is not unfair. Nothing happens to us that shouldn't. We don't deserve what is good, so when something bad happens, we can't cry foul.


"Without holiness no one will see the Lord."
Heb 12|14
Urge your congregation to repent. Be wary of lulling them into a false sense of security; many of them probably do not know God. Therefore, it is more beneficial to them to realize this than to blanket it.

Phew. I hope you have taken these words seriously. Again, I am sorry to bring such a harsh message. This is not personal in the least bit -- I don't even know you! I'm not judging you, but the content of your sermon.

In Christ,
St. M

p.s. Hopefully next time I'll be more pleasant
p.p.s. This is my personal opinion -- your sermon is above average in relation to the others I've heard. I think the Church in the West is getting more and more ridiculous, so don't take that as a complement.

I'm interested as to your background and why so militant against the West.

I appreciate your concerns and on some points do agree with you on my message's lacking.

Another word, though. I am not a pastor now, nor probably will be for another 10 years or more. I am extremely young, but the reason I do this is so that when I am really a pastor I will effectively communicate to my congregation.

Joel

SaintMorpheus
August 20th 2003, 11:07 AM
Joel,

Thank you for considering what I wrote. Let me address what you have said:


I am extremely young...


I am relieved to hear that, because you have time to learn (and, to your credit, seem very willing to do so). I was under the impression that you were already a pastor ... your sermon would definitely past muster in a lot of churches.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Knowing God is trusting Jesus alone for salvation,


No, there is an important distinction between the two. To trust is to place one's confidence in someone or something. It is a subjective feeling of certitude about a desired outcome because of the perceived strength of someone or something. One can trust a random stranger; for example, whenever I fly, I place my trust in the pilot. That is to say, I have a feeling of certainty that I will arrive at my intended destination safely because I assume that the pilot is competent.
To know someone is to be familiar with him, to understand patterns of behavior, to be 'in tune with' his passions desires, ambitions, to understand what makes him happy, etc etc. You cannot know a random stranger.
To trust Jesus is rely upon him for salvation, to feel certain about one's intended destination (heaven, the presence of God, salvation, etc) because of Jesus' strength.
To know God is to understand His character, to walk in His ways, to realize what pleases Him, to comprehend His nature, His personality, etc etc.
One trusts Jesus because one knows God, or one starts getting to know God by first trusting Jesus, but knowing God and trusting Jesus are two distinct concepts.
The importance of understanding this distinction is this: Many think they know God just because they "made a decision for Christ." I think you have pointed out the falsehood of this here:


It is not just a one time "decision" in our minds, but rather that when we trust in Him, we must focus on knowing Him more in our daily lives. Though I did try to bring that out, but I may have failed.


I think you should concentrate much more heavily on what it really means to know God, rather than on some moral exhortation to 'put God first.' Every Christian knows he should put God first. Very few people know God. Concentrate on the more important thing. Jeremiah 9:23-24 offers a glimpse at the nature of God, what His delight is, etc., and so this is a good passage you have selected for the topic of knowing God. Don't distort it in order to make a sort of 'altar call' Gospel presentation. That is not needed.


Yes, looking back, I really don't like that wording. But I really was trying to bring out the point that God IS your life. Notice also that that language was not all that I used. I also said things like place him at the center of your life and make him the focal point of your life--meaning of course that everything flows from your relationship to Him, a point I did bring out in some way at least when I said, "Don't let the other things in your life control your relationship with God. Let your relationship with God control the other things in your life." (off my memory--didn't look at exact quote).
But I see your point, and I don't really like using "thing" either.


Ok, I can see what you were getting at. But if you can avoid cliche phrases, that will be better. Talking about having God at the "center of one's life" is very cliche, and, to my knowledge, such a phrase is not found in Scripture. I think the Scriptural equivalent of what you're trying to say is "We should worship God."


That is true, but that is not what the text I was basing the message off of said. My main points were not made up out of thin air. I sought to find them in the text. I could come up with all sorts of other reasons to do so, but they are not in the text, thus they are included.


Fair enough. The text says nothing about the resurrected Son of God. But you will notice that the NT writers used an exegetical method which was essential: FIND the Son of God in any passage possible.
I think pulling the fact that God imputed Christ's righteousness into us was a very large stretch, not to mention the fact that this is not a biblical concept.
So why not do what the NT writers did: Even if the resurrection cannot be found with a particular exegetical method in a particular OT passage, find it anyway with another exegetical method, namely, assume that the whole OT is about Christ.


That's not exactly what I was saying. It was more along the lines of God has done wondrous things on your behalf already, so focus your life around your relationship with him.
Correct, we don't have a life to own, but that doesn't mean that Scripture does not give reasons from the very character of God's actions and stance toward us that should cause us to want to know him more.


You're right. It is written in the Scriptures quite often "God has done X, therefore you should do Y." Absolutely. I retract that critique.


The Christian life is no, not about personal comfort in the physical world. But the point is, the Christian has the comfort of the peace of God which passes all understanding by which he is able to sustain life's rigors.


True. But the temptation to misunderstand that is very strong, especially in the States, where our reality is defined by comfort. Christ does not promise emotional security, comfortable surroundings, a fulfilling life, balance, well-roundedness, physical health, etc. These are the things I associate with "comfort." What St. Paul and the rest of the ANE thought of as "comfort," I don't know. But what can't be avoided is that we are to pick up our crosses. This is not done as often as is supposed.
Yet, where there is genuine suffering, you're right, we do have a message of comfort from Christ. He brings the peace that passes all understanding. I shouldn't forget that myself.


"Admit you sin today before God, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross, and Call on His name to save you from your sin, and then you will have the richness of the lovingkindness of God envelope you for the rest of your days."


Yes, please do consider how this will sound to unbelievers. Please also consider the similarity between this 'altar call' and the message of the NT church. I would study St. Peter's sermon recorded in Acts (the one directly after the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost).


Perhaps, yes, they are not good phrases to use, considering they could potentially cause confusion, but I hardly see how it is man-centered. I wasn't trying to tickle people's ears with it or something, I was just trying to get across God's displeasure with sin. But yes, I will be more careful about using commonly used phrases without considering their implications in a message.


Yes, I agree -- conveying the message that God hates sin is not man-centered. But using certain analogies learned at Campus Crusade or Young Life can be. Either dumbing-down spiritual concepts from Scripture, or developing mechanisms to explain salvation in a simplistic way, can be man-centered, because it values the intellectual level of the person over the loftiness of the words of God. This is a fine point. Just be aware of your motivations for using this or that analogy and the origins of these analogies, that's all.


Hold it. I don't have a problem with you critiquing things. And I don't have a problem with you expressing displeasure with the way things are stated. But I don't think your use of language at the beginning of the last sentence is appropriate nor fitting for a Christian, and I would appreciate you not using such.


I deliberately used the word "hell" in a profane way, because I knew it would ellicit this reaction, and I wanted to expose the disproportionate values that exist. You immediately took issue with my use of a swear word and failed to comment on my main point, namely, that thinking the greatest thing about Christ's righteousness is that God applies it to me. That is very ME-centered, yet you focused on my word choice and only commented on whether or not Christ's righteousness is, in fact, imputed and not how we should perceive that righteousness with respect to our egos.


God looks at us and does not see our sin, but rather sees Christ's righteousness.


Where, in all of Scripture, is this idea EVER expounded? This is something Evangelicals made up recently. These are the kinds of ideas that look really, really silly to unbelievers (but genuine seekers of the truth) and make God look silly.


I don't know that anyone does, but the point of using "myself" there was to show that I am not saying that I am some super-Chrstian example that all need to bow down before because I have the desire to serve Christ. Plus it makes it more personal--preaching rather than lecturing--IMHO.


Fine. But everyone will know that you are not a super-Christian example. Why not point them to a super-Christian example, like St. Paul? Positive examples are encouraging. Wallowing around in the fact that nobody's perfect is deflating and uninspiring, and frankly boring, because everyone hears it all the time. Why not aspire to be saints, rather than aspire to have high self-esteems despite our shortcomings?


I'm afraid I don't see how that is to lull them to sleep.


God works for the good of those that love Him. If you fail to push the importance of actually loving God, there will be many people who actually hate God (by their actions) but they will STILL have the false comfort of believing that God works everything in their lives for good.


I'm afraid I just blatantly have to disagree. People have serious needs and serious hurts. And Scripture is what heals them and sets them on the right path of serving the Lord. And Scripture says that God uses even the lowest of the low. So my point to them is that even if they think that their lives are worthless and have no meaning and that they can never do anything good, it is not true when there is repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, for he uses even the worst of sinners. God works in our lives all the time and he can and will use us.


I was trying to elucidate the distinction between "God can use us" and "God does use us." Yes, God does use us. Even the worst of us. He used Pilate to accomplish salvation for us. Granted. Conceptualizing this fact as "God can use us" allows one to think that God sort of springs into action when called upon in prayer and repentance. God does not sit and wait to use people. Ever.


It is all righteous in the sense that it is not unfair. Nothing happens to us that shouldn't. We don't deserve what is good, so when something bad happens, we can't cry foul.


So the children who are starving to death in Africa deserve it? The children in Iraq who have leukemia because of DU rounds left after GWI and GWII deserve it? These things are fair?
ARE WE NOT TO CRY OUT TO GOD TO SAVE US FROM INJUSTICE?


I'm interested as to your background and why so militant against the West.


I'm American. Much of my family has been here for a couple hundred years. I have ancestors who fought in the American Revolution.
I am 'militant' because Western Christianity is a sinking ship; it is sinking because it prostituted itself to Western Civilization, which is also a sinking ship. The whole debacle is ridiculous and is not glorifying to God. Therefore we need to repent, because we will be swept away.

Thanks for your comments, Joel. I hope you've found this post less militant than the last one. How is your family?

-St. M