Why do Christians celebrate pagan holidays? [Archive]

Jnthn

October 14th 2005, 05:45 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

You're way off the mark: CHRISTmas is the celebration of Jesus' Birth. The subsequent question of whether the date reflects the birth event itself does not detract from the fact that CHRISTmas is a celebration for CHRISTians

I don't think you'll find any Christians "celebrate" Halloween. Certain anglo-catholic denominations are more likely to hang fire until the first of November for All Saints Day. Again there is a parallel question of whether Christians should participate in trick-or-treating (or "guising" as it's known here in Scotland). Dressing up and annoying the neighbours for candies is a mile away from cavorting with Warlocks.

Christians do not celebrate Easter (yes, I am aware of the fertility overtones of the name) rather events that happened in and around Passover (Jewish calendar) which concurs with the Olde Worlde Eastertide.

J

Piebald

October 14th 2005, 06:03 PM

seer

October 14th 2005, 06:04 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Because pagan holidays are much more fun...

technomage

October 14th 2005, 06:28 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Rom 14:5-6a
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

If you're going to claim to be Christian, you'd better start following the book.

Krusader

October 14th 2005, 06:41 PM

technomage

October 14th 2005, 06:45 PM

Because pagan holidays are much more fun...
It's 'cause we've got the really good punch recipe ... you know, with the lime sherbet and ginger ale....

technomage

October 14th 2005, 06:47 PM

Justin is right. Legalism has no place in a religion of grace.
The really good punch recipe does, however. :teeth:

Wanna trade recipes? My punch for your eggnog...?

Lady Gooner

October 14th 2005, 07:06 PM

Rom 14:5-6a
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

If you're going to claim to be Christian, you'd better start following the book.

:thumb: cant believe im agreeing with a pagan :wink: and he said that with a bit more grace than your OP :ahem: but the real reason is christians are hypocrites and dont always do as they should or read the bible and understand what it's about but im sure you are the fountain of all knowledge and able to teach us all about it :zzz: ~ oooh Justin , eggnog :idea: here you'll need some of these :eggy:

:lmbo: sorry I just love food fights

Sparko

October 14th 2005, 07:22 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Paul had some words just for you sonofyah...

Colossians 2:16-23

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:

"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?

These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Trout

October 14th 2005, 07:25 PM

Why do Christians celebrate pagan holidays?

Free beer, what else? :huh:

technomage

October 14th 2005, 07:25 PM

cant believe im agreeing with a pagan

And the village idiot, no less. :teeth:

here you'll need some of these :eggy:
:lmbo: sorry I just love food fights

Leaving me, once again, with egg on my face. :hehe:

Food fight? Here you go! :duck:

Sparko

October 14th 2005, 07:27 PM

Why do Christians celebrate pagan holidays?

Free beer, what else? :huh:

Free Beer? :yipee::joy:

Where? Where?

:ale:

Trout

October 14th 2005, 07:31 PM

Free beer at seer's place, bring your own cup though.

We're going to celebrate RahmaHannaQwanzaMadon.

mickiel

October 14th 2005, 08:26 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Because christianity is a confused religion. They do those things because they are part pagan themselves. They just cannot see it. christianity can look at itself in the mirror, walk away and forget how it looks in the next moment.

technomage

October 14th 2005, 08:29 PM

Because christianity is a confused religion. They do those things because they are part pagan themselves. They just cannot see it. christianity can look at itself in the mirror, walk away and forget how it looks in the next moment.
Ah, Mickiel, enough with the anger! Here, have some eggnog ... Crusader made it, and it's really good! :teeth:

Piebald

October 14th 2005, 09:38 PM

Da Lone-Warrior

October 14th 2005, 10:06 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Christianity has been and is and always will be subject to some acculturation and, as such, Europagan and Christian are not mutually exclusive.

dlw

Da Lone-Warrior

October 14th 2005, 10:08 PM

technomage

October 14th 2005, 10:09 PM

Good answer, though I think mine is more of a deathblow if I do say so myself ;;)
:bow: I gratefully acknowledge the tutelage of the master.

:wink:

technomage

October 14th 2005, 10:11 PM

Halloween is All Saints Day eve...

dlw
Halloween certainly grew out of All Saints Day, but for most people who celebrate it, it is a completely secular holiday.

Da Lone-Warrior

October 14th 2005, 10:18 PM

Halloween certainly grew out of All Saints Day, but for most people who celebrate it, it is a completely secular holiday.

Duh,...I believe the question was why Xtns celebrate it...

In my family, it's because we liked costumes and candy and a wee bit of paganism/syncretism doesn't kill ya. I like Japanese Anime and that reflects Shintoism, which you could argue is a Japanese variant on Paganism. I've read papers that describe Japanese Shintoism with use of examples from recent Anime and suggests that studying Shintoism this way may be a way to better acculturate Christianity into Japan.

dlw

Piebald

October 14th 2005, 10:19 PM

Halloween is All Saints Day eve...

dlw
That is true, but like Justin said, I don't attach any particular religious significance to it. Halloween for me is mostly a fun festival where I entertain myself by scaring myself. I also love the atmosphere and decorations. Christmas and Easter are "festivals" too but they have religious significance that I don't find on the eve of All Saints Day.

Though I do like reading about the history of Halloween... the day that the world is close to the world of the dead ... pretty spooky... I love it :ohno:

mickiel

October 14th 2005, 10:20 PM

Ah, Mickiel, enough with the anger! Here, have some eggnog ... Crusader made it, and it's really good! :teeth:

You have made an error in judgement, I hold no anger in that view I expressed. You think I speak from anger because in your mind you cannot see it as a reasonable conclusion drawn from a mind at peace with its thoughts. You and your brothers just think me an angry nut because you are so grounded in christianity. And I understand that. I speak from a very seasoned mind that takes it views from a different observation where religion is concerned. The inconsistancys that permeate christianity are legendary, but not to christians themselves, only to those of us who do not need christianity any longer to commune with God.

technomage

October 14th 2005, 10:30 PM

You and your brothers just think me an angry nut because you are so grounded in christianity.

Mickiel, I'm not even Christian.

Now come on ... relax a bit! Eggnog! :teeth:

technomage

October 14th 2005, 10:33 PM

Duh,...I believe the question was why Xtns celebrate it...

Well, I was actually making a distinction between "pagan holiday" and "secular holiday." You know, along the lines of "Most Christians dont celebrate a pagan holiday on Oct 31 ... they celebrate a secular holiday."

C'mon, dude! Chill out! Have some eggnog!

Provoker

October 14th 2005, 10:38 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Hello Sonofyah:
The answer is simple. Jesus proclaimed the good news that the Davidic kingdom was going to be resurrected, and after he was executed, his apostle's continued to preach the good news of the kingdom till Rome destroyed Jerusalem in 66AD, and then the church went underground. In order to prevent a future rise of the Zealot movement, which would present a national security threat to Rome, Rome brought the church into the open, legitamized it, and added to it, doctrines from the major pagan religions so Christianity would truly be the universal church of the empire.
Sunday is the venerable day of the sun god, Sol Invictus...December 25, is three days after the "death of the sun(winter solstice)", when the sun rises from the grave...Easter is named after the goddess Astarte, because it is her feast day...Constantine was a worshipper of Sol Invictus.
The most common pagan doctrine of the time, was the doctrine of the virgin born, dying rising, god man, saviour, and it was established forever in Christianity, at the first ecumenical council of Nicea...325 DA.

Da Lone-Warrior

October 14th 2005, 10:40 PM

That is true, but like Justin said, I don't attach any particular religious significance to it. Halloween for me is mostly a fun festival where I entertain myself by scaring myself. I also love the atmosphere and decorations. Christmas and Easter are "festivals" too but they have religious significance that I don't find on the eve of All Saints Day.

Though I do like reading about the history of Halloween... the day that the world is close to the world of the dead ... pretty spooky... I love it :ohno:

I went on a "Day of the Dead" march in 2001 with some Chicanos in MI. We got a fire-truck to come march with us in memory of 9-11. I wore a costume as the Tin-man and held up a sign saying "Have a Heart MSU". Earlier that week, I had worn the costume, while taking part in a sit-in at the admin building as part of the graduate employee union's negotiations for getting their first contract.

dlw

Da Lone-Warrior

October 14th 2005, 10:41 PM

Well, I was actually making a distinction between "pagan holiday" and "secular holiday." You know, along the lines of "Most Christians dont celebrate a pagan holiday on Oct 31 ... they celebrate a secular holiday."

C'mon, dude! Chill out! Have some eggnog!

urr, there's no pagan concoctions in this eggnog, is there? I'd hate to be turned into a newt....

dlw

technomage

October 14th 2005, 10:51 PM

urr, there's no pagan concoctions in this eggnog, is there? I'd hate to be turned into a newt....

dlw
Crusader made the eggnog. The worst it would do is turn you into a Calvinist. :hehe:

(Sorry, Crusader, I couldn't resist!)

Piebald

October 14th 2005, 11:02 PM

I went on a "Day of the Dead" march in 2001 with some Chicanos in MI. We got a fire-truck to come march with us in memory of 9-11. I wore a costume as the Tin-man and held up a sign saying "Have a Heart MSU". Earlier that week, I had worn the costume, while taking part in a sit-in at the admin building as part of the graduate employee union's negotiations for getting their first contract.

dlw
For living in an area that is heavily populated with Latinos, I have never actually seen a day of the dead celebration. I'd love to buy a sugar skull but I could never bring myself to eat it...

Da Lone-Warrior

October 14th 2005, 11:17 PM

Crusader made the eggnog. The worst it would do is turn you into a Calvinist. :hehe:

(Sorry, Crusader, I couldn't resist!)

beam it over and bottoms up...

dlw

Lady Gooner

October 15th 2005, 04:44 AM

And the village idiot, no less. :teeth:

oh don't be so hard on yourself

1Cr 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; :wink:

Matthew 23:11-13
11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Food fight? Here you go! :duck:

MISSED ME ! :rasberry: [attachment=1] that's pumpkin !

Because christianity is a confused religion. They do those things because they are part pagan themselves. They just cannot see it. christianity can look at itself in the mirror, walk away and forget how it looks in the next moment.

James 1:22-24 22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

This begs the question what would you classify as "celebrate" Do"christians" celebrate samhein, middlemas..... :huh: Do they call a holy convocation dedicating it to the Lord, having a feast :yummy: or do they celebrate certain days in various ways, maybe in ways which are not quite the usual traditional way, some tailor their holidays to what they feel pleases the Lord by using it as a time for family/friends. some celebrate passover rather than easter some remember it just as resurrection day, Some celebrate the nativity rather than christmas, some dont celebrate at all~ society is geared around these "secular" hoidays. or correction Holy~days. After all thats what a holiday is ~ Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hAligdæg, from hAlig holy + dæg day, a day on which one is exempt from work; specifically : a day marked by a general suspension of work in commemoration of an event

a day set aside for special religious observance

if you choose not to commemorate on these days yikes you loose half your holiday allowance but thats personal choice

The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop delvs into this area of error within the church. You will not get too far in your research of church history without coming across references to this book and that is the only reason I have included it here — a reference work not as something to be used to beat someone else over the head with (like some use the Bible itself).

Personally we have a day of deep mourning on the 4th of July where the kids sit for hours pouring tea on themselves and singing rule Brittania [attachment=2]

but we have a massive celebration on 5th Nov and rejoice at the great deliverance from the papist hordes and scream manically as guy faulkes is once again delivered to the flames :flaming: ).

sonofyah

October 16th 2005, 05:08 PM

Halloween I can understand, but why do you think that Christians can't celebrate Christmas and Easter?

Christmas is about celebrating the birth of Jesus. Easter is celebrating his resurrection. Nothing pagan about either of those. Just because it was decided to celebrate the birth of jesus on the same day that Pagans were having a holiday does not make Christmas a pagan holiday.

If you find Christmas, Dec 25, Old St. Nick,christmas cards, jingle bells, raindeers, rabbits that lay colorful eggs, christmas trees......in the Scriptures let me know. Jeremiah 3:10 (read)

Yahshua was not born anywhere close to Dec 25 see...Luke 2

If you think about it you cannot get 3 days and 3 nights from Good Friday to Ressurection Sunday....See Nimrod and Tamuz for the origin of christmas and easter.

decided to celebrate the birth of jesus

Anytime "MAN" decides to do something that is not Scriptural they are in error and they will be judged accordinglly.

sonofyah

October 16th 2005, 05:16 PM

You're way off the mark: CHRISTmas is the celebration of Jesus' Birth. The subsequent question of whether the date reflects the birth event itself does not detract from the fact that CHRISTmas is a celebration for CHRISTians

I don't think you'll find any Christians "celebrate" Halloween. Certain anglo-catholic denominations are more likely to hang fire until the first of November for All Saints Day. Again there is a parallel question of whether Christians should participate in trick-or-treating (or "guising" as it's known here in Scotland). Dressing up and annoying the neighbours for candies is a mile away from cavorting with Warlocks.

Christians do not celebrate Easter (yes, I am aware of the fertility overtones of the name) rather events that happened in and around Passover (Jewish calendar) which concurs with the Olde Worlde Eastertide.

J

Yahshua was not born on Dec 25 he was born around the jewish Holiday "Passover" see Luke 2.

If you can show me scripture that supports your earthly consideration to pagan holidays I will submit.

Christmas (read) Jeremiah 10:3-4

If its not in the Word why do you support it.

sonofyah

October 16th 2005, 05:20 PM

Christmas and Easter aren't "Pagan." Halloween isn't really anything other than a silly secular festival.

The New Testament uses pagan terms (for example Hades, Tartarus, references to Python, etc.), but instills them with new meaning. Does that make the New Testament pagan?

Tartarus and Hades are compartments of Hell. Only "Man" will put a spin on what different definitions we should use to define what it meant in this language versus the next.

Futhermore, if its not in the scriptures why do you celebrate it as a christian.

Show me scripture.....

Lady Gooner

October 16th 2005, 05:22 PM

Yahshua was not born on Dec 25 he was born around the jewish Holiday "Passover" see Luke 2.

.

I think you mean tabernacles (sukkot) actually :wink:

yoki

October 16th 2005, 05:46 PM

Christians celebrate pagan holidays because such celebration is consistent with their belief system.

Piebald

October 16th 2005, 05:55 PM

Tartarus and Hades are compartments of Hell. Only "Man" will put a spin on what different definitions we should use to define what it meant in this language versus the next.

Tartarus and Hades are Greek mythological beliefs about the afterlife. Paul and other Christians modified the meaning of Tartarus and Hades in order to use them to describe Hell. Just like Christians modified the meaning of pagan holidays like Yule and Eoaster to celebrate the birth of Jesus. Tartarus and Hades now have specific Christian concepts behind them and can be used in a Christian context. So can Christmas and Easter.

There is nothing wrong with adapting a pagan belief or concept in order to use it to express something true in Christianity:

PAGAN CONCEPTS ADAPTEDTO CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES

IN THE BIBLE

1. Gehenna.Robertson's Word Pictures: Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom where the fire burned continually. Here idolatrous Jews once offered their children to Molech (2Ki_23:10).
The New Testament uses Gehenna, a pagan sacrificial altar, to communicate Christian truths.

2. HadesWikipedia: Roman mythology, an entrance to the underworld located at Avernus, a crater near Cumae, was the route Aeneas used to descend to the Underworld. By synecdoche, "Avernus" could be substituted for the underworld as a whole. The Inferi Dii were the Roman gods of the underworld. The New Testament uses and re-adapts Pagan beliefs about Hades to communicate Christian truths.
3. TartarusWikipedia: In Greek mythology, Tartarus, or Tartaros, is both a deity and a place in the underworld - even lower than Hades. In ancient orphic sources and in the mystery schools Tartaros is also the unbounded first-existing "thing" from which the Light and the cosmos is born.
Yet another example of the New Testament re-adapting Pagan beliefs in order to communicate Christian truths.

4. Daimonion (Demon)Wikipedia: For Greeks and Romans, daemons ("replete with knowledge", "divine power", "fate" or "god") were not necessarily evil. Socrates claimed to have a daimon that warned him and gave him advice but never coerced him into following it. He claimed that his daimon exhibited greater accuracy than any of the forms of divination practised at the time. The Hellenistic Greeks divided daemons into good and evil categories: eudaemons (also called calodaemons) and cacodaemons, respectively. Eudaemons resembled the modern idea of the guardian angel (see eudaimonia). They watched over ordinary mortals to help keep them out of trouble. A comparable Roman genius accompanied a person or protected and haunted a place (genius loci).

Saying "well, they are just compartments of Hell" doesn't change that fact. Christmas is "just the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ," and Easter is "just the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

if its not in the scriptures why do you celebrate it

Celebrations do not have to be scriptural. Scripture says that we can have feast days and holy days as long as we do not look down on those who don't want to participate. To complain that "Jesus didn't say that you could celebrate his birth!" is silly because we celebrate his birth every time we read passages of scripture that celebrate his birth. There is nothing sinful with localizing a big celebration with a feast to a specific time of the year.

If you find Christmas, Dec 25, Old St. Nick,christmas cards, jingle bells, raindeers, rabbits that lay colorful eggs, christmas trees......in the Scriptures let me know.

I'm sorry, English is unbiblical, please write in Greek or Aramaic. Also, I hope that you are wearing biblical clothing, because God told us to dress certain ways, and they certainly didn't have modern clothing in the New Testament era.

guacamole

October 16th 2005, 06:03 PM

I celebrate "pagan" holidays because I am completely comfortable with a bit of pagan or cultural construction in my belief system, it's inescapable. Everyone's society inflects their beliefs, if for no other reason than because we are products of our culture (scary, I know!) and we read scripture through a cultural lens. Your discipleship is nothing more than a 20th century variation on the primitive church. It is not the primitive church as much as some would like to believe. Instead it is a mutt of a belief system that has suffered (or enjoyed, depending on the pov) subtractions, additions and mutations to the original statements of faith. If God wanted you to be the primitive church then you'd be the primitive church. You'd also be hopelessly irrelevant (culturally, politically, ethically, theologically, and economically) since our circumstances and conditions are the same.

jmo,
guaca.

themuzicman

October 16th 2005, 06:06 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

You obviously don't understand what CHristian celebrate Christmas and Easter. Halloween isn't a holiday, anymore. It's nothing more than tradition.

Christmas was the day Christians chose to celebrate Christ's birth (Thus, Christ mass.)

Easter, while poorly named, is the day we celebrate the resurrection of Christ.

Honestly, it's silly to say that these days are pagan to the Christian.

Michael

guacamole

October 16th 2005, 06:13 PM

It is not a stretch to suggest that most, if not all, of the customes and traditions of the Catholic Church are Pagan and were grafted into Catholicism's trinitarian Christianity. This is an undeniable fact.

best wishes,

Like communion? Baptism? Confession? Worship? Hymns? Calendar of Scripture readings?

Or maybe no?

Piebald

October 16th 2005, 06:14 PM

Pythagoras

October 16th 2005, 06:21 PM

Hi Hamster,

Stop getting excited. I know Sparko's plan.

It is not a stretch to suggest that most, if not all, of the customs and traditions of the Catholic Church are non-Semitic(Pagan) and were mashed in with trinitarian Christianity.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg, the pagan or Christian ideas? But it doesn't really mater since today's Catholicism is a thorough synthesis of the two.

best wishes,

guacamole

October 16th 2005, 06:34 PM

Guac, Pythagoras is a troll who would love to derail this thread into a host body for his irrational anti-trinitarian diatribes. I say that we keep it on subject: Holidays, Christians, and Pagan connections.

Sure thing. Sorry for feeding the :wiggum:. I just like it when he says things that are easily refutable, because he'd rather hang on like a pitbull than admit he overstated his case.

I stand by what I said earlier. A little pagan never hurt anyone. Now a big pagan with a highland broad swoard is something else entirely...

Pythagoras

October 16th 2005, 08:14 PM

A little pagan never hurt anyone. ...

The trinity and hypostatic union are just "a little pagan" ? Alexander Hislop agrees these ideas have condemned millions of Catholics to eternal damnation, though ironically he himself was a trinitarian. Such is the power of this doctrine.. I'm trying to save your soul and here you are arguing with me.

If Sparko and you do not repent of this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God and repent not of this trinity business, God will judge both of you. I have told you in advance, so you have no excuse.

best wishes,

Pythagoras,
You have been repeatedly warned about derailing threads into anti-trinitarian rants. Please obey the rules.

Darth Executor

October 16th 2005, 10:13 PM

The trinity and hypostatic union are just "a little pagan" ?

They are not pagan at all since the pagans had individual gods.

yoki

October 16th 2005, 10:23 PM

They are not pagan at all since the pagans had individual gods.

True. That's what made them pagan - being polytheistic. However, Christian doctrine is the end result of taking pagan beliefs and merging them with monotheism. The end result produces doctrines filled with "paradoxes," but what else would one expect?

Pythagoras

October 16th 2005, 11:45 PM

They are not pagan at all since the pagans had individual gods.

Gregory of Nyssa and other honest trinitarians do not, cannot deny the trinity is numerically three gods working in unison . I suspect neither can you.

You indeed admit to worshipping gods, though not individually(as "the Pagans") , but rather as a compound unity.

best wishes

Krusader

October 17th 2005, 10:56 AM

Crusader made the eggnog. The worst it would do is turn you into a Calvinist. :hehe:

(Sorry, Crusader, I couldn't resist!)

Ha, that's funny. In any case, if he's predestined to drink it, he will, if not, then it is not within God's sovereign will.

PS: Eggnog is my favorite!

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 03:00 PM

OK just a note:

This thread is not about the trinity dispite Pythagoras' multiple attempts to turn it into such.

Please stay on topic.

Jnthn

October 17th 2005, 03:55 PM

Yahshua was not born on Dec 25 he was born around the jewish Holiday "Passover" see Luke 2.

If you can show me scripture that supports your earthly consideration to pagan holidays I will submit.

Christmas (read) Jeremiah 10:3-4

If its not in the Word why do you support it.

There is nothing in Luke 2 that explicitly pins the birth down to Passover. Internal evidence in Luke, and others, tells us that the birth occurred when the Shepherds had their sheep in the fields and hills - this suggests a temperate period of the year such as spring or autumn. The absence of the mention of lambs may push it towards Autumn, but I won't press the point. If you insist on labouring the Passover date, you are going to have to provide some more compelling evidence rather than lobbing Luke 2 into the mix.

(And please tell me you are not trying to make the Jeremiah quote into some kind of prophesy about Christmas Trees!)

There is a lot in Scriptures that is not mentioned. But then again, I don't hold a slavish proscriptive view of Scripture, as you seem to do. Yes there are some portions which are commandments (there are at least ten I can think of :duh:) but to disregard context is to do violence to the text.

J

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 04:08 PM

Paul clearly says not to let anyone give you a hassle about celebrating holy days. (thats the Sparko paraphrase)

Those that do are being legalistic jerks. They try to pretend to be holier than us and tell us what we can and can't do.

Christmas is just a day we picked to celebrate the coming of Christ into our world. No he wasn't really born on December 25. We just celebrate it then.

The angels celebrated his birth, so why can't we?

Luke 2:11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%202&version=31;#fen-NIV-24977a)] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger." 13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

Krusader

October 17th 2005, 04:36 PM

True. That's what made them pagan - being polytheistic. However, Christian doctrine is the end result of taking pagan beliefs and merging them with monotheism. The end result produces doctrines filled with "paradoxes," but what else would one expect?

Monotheism was all about the triumph of the One True God over the polytheistic culture of middle eastern tribes. The Jews were distinct and separate from the polytheistic tribes surrounding them - and their faith was not a mixture of paganism/monotheism - since, any paganistic corruption was ferreted out and dealt with promptly and severely. The ancient polytheistis died out - for where are your Baal worshippers today? Where are those worshippers of Molech? But the Jew survives, and his monotheistic faith triumphed because it never merged with paganism.

Pilgrim

October 17th 2005, 04:51 PM

If any christian celebrate christmas, halloween, and easter they are in error. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Don't be dshonest, what you would love is the opportunity to tell those who celebrate such holidays how they are wrong.

Pilgrim

October 17th 2005, 04:53 PM

It's 'cause we've got the really good punch recipe ... you know, with the lime sherbet and ginger ale....
That reminds me of the Simpsons where Bart says, "All the really cool bands are already affiliated with Satan."

Pilgrim

October 17th 2005, 04:57 PM

You have made an error in judgement, I hold no anger in that view I expressed. You think I speak from anger because in your mind you cannot see it as a reasonable conclusion drawn from a mind at peace with its thoughts. You and your brothers just think me an angry nut because you are so grounded in christianity. And I understand that. I speak from a very seasoned mind that takes it views from a different observation where religion is concerned. The inconsistancys that permeate christianity are legendary, but not to christians themselves, only to those of us who do not need christianity any longer to commune with God.
Yeah come on Justin, can't you see it's not anger, it's just arrogance. Sheesh.

Pilgrim

October 17th 2005, 04:59 PM

urr, there's no pagan concoctions in this eggnog, is there? I'd hate to be turned into a newt....

dlw
Don't worry about being turned into a newt, "You'll get better!"

Piebald

October 17th 2005, 04:59 PM

Please show me where eggnog is in the bible, thx.

Pilgrim

October 17th 2005, 05:00 PM

If you find Christmas, Dec 25, Old St. Nick,christmas cards, jingle bells, raindeers, rabbits that lay colorful eggs, christmas trees......in the Scriptures let me know. Jeremiah 3:10 (read)

Yahshua was not born anywhere close to Dec 25 see...Luke 2

If you think about it you cannot get 3 days and 3 nights from Good Friday to Ressurection Sunday....See Nimrod and Tamuz for the origin of christmas and easter.

Anytime "MAN" decides to do something that is not Scriptural they are in error and they will be judged accordinglly.
Ahh, so when you decided to post on the internet, which is after all, not scriptural, you stepped right into the line of fire eh?

technomage

October 17th 2005, 05:03 PM

Please show me where eggnog is in the bible, thx.

Aigh! Hamster has discovered my nefarious scheme!

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 06:26 PM

Yeah come on Justin, can't you see it's not anger, it's just arrogance. Sheesh.

Its not arrogance, its wisdom. I am wise enough to walk away from paganism, in all its forms, christianity is just one of its forms. There are no religons on earth not infected with paganism, none that I am aware of. Religion is just mans effort to reach God. Paganism is the perversion of that effort. Justin views my thoughts as too angry or too serious or too something, but they are just too complex for him to understand. I know that he is simply unable to, be he christian or not.

Paganism is one of Gods ways of keeping people ignorant of him. The reason why the world is not converted, is because the power that created it wants it that way. And only his power could do as such.

technomage

October 17th 2005, 06:37 PM

Justin views my thoughts as too angry or too serious or too something, but they are just too complex for him to understand. I know that he is simply unable to, be he christian or not.

Perhaps you would be accused of less arrogance if you refrained from making assumptions of what I do or do not understand.

Lady Gooner

October 17th 2005, 06:49 PM

Those that do are being legalistic jerks. They try to pretend to be holier than us and tell us what we can and can't do.

My take on the issue of feast days/holidays; is that it is purely an individual matter of conviction before the Lord. We are told simply to be fully convinced in our own minds, and not to pass judgment on one another's convictions in these areas. When we begin making things mandatory when God has specifically declared they are not, we get into nomianism, whether we are commanding or forbidding something. And that goes for drinking eggnog too :wink:

God gave to Israel seven annual festivals. They are full of typology. The Spring festivals are fulfilled in messiah Jesus and describe how the individual is to walk and live his life before God. I think that each Feast represents separate appointed events by God. Passover is Jesus’s death, First Fruits is Jesus presenting himself as resurrected the day after the Sabbath. Unleavened Bread appears to me to be about the removal of leaven or sin from the house of God in seven days. Pentecost was an outpouring of God’s spirit. Pentecost brought forth (fruit of the spirit) [Torah], corporately in peoples hearts. The last three feasts I believe are about the restoration of the house of God.

Jesus is our Passover lamb, He is without sin and is the Bread of life. He was the kernal of wheat that was buried in the earth. He arose as First fruits of the barley harvest, he himself being the first to rise from the dead and receive a resurrected body. Finally the Holy spirit was poured out upon all flesh during the feast of Pentecost. All speak of significant events in Jesus first coming when he came as the suffering servant. The fall feasts in turn give us insight and understanding concerning events of Jesus’ second coming. When he will come back as king of kings.

Surely the issue is whether we understand the types and the events and their significance such that they deepen our understanding and relationship with God rather than which feast festival or fast we decide to keep and remember.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 07:47 PM

Perhaps you would be accused of less arrogance if you refrained from making assumptions of what I do or do not understand.

Don't misunderstand, the accusations do not bother me, I couldcareless if they stop or keep comming. Based on what little communication we have had, you do not understand me nor what I am talking about. That is my perception. I only say that concerning the few areas we have discussed, not the ability of your mind.

technomage

October 17th 2005, 08:08 PM

Don't misunderstand, the accusations do not bother me, I couldcareless if they stop or keep comming. Based on what little communication we have had, you do not understand me nor what I am talking about. That is my perception. I only say that concerning the few areas we have discussed, not the ability of your mind.

Mickiel, it is ... not always wise to make such a sweeping judgement based on limited interaction. Truth, I have not always acknowledge those areas that I do understand of your thinking ... but by the same token, I am quite persuaded that your thinking is not an accurate reflection of the nature of God. Please take no offense at that statement--I am also persuaded that my thinking, or the thinking of any human being on this planet, is insufficient for the task.

But before you make a summary evaluation of my understanding of God, perhaps it would be wise to ask me what I understand. We will not always agree, to be sure, but it is always more accurate to ask than to assume.

Mujibur

October 17th 2005, 08:15 PM

If you find Christmas, Dec 25, Old St. Nick,christmas cards, jingle bells, raindeers, rabbits that lay colorful eggs, christmas trees......in the Scriptures let me know. Jeremiah 3:10 (read)

Yahshua was not born anywhere close to Dec 25 see...Luke 2

Please enlighten us all with the proper day that we should celebrate Jesus' birth then. Seems to me that God made it quite a celebration when Jesus was born, what with a whole host of angels in the sky and sending shepherds from the fields, and wisemen from hundreds of miles away to come and celebrate the birth. Why should we not also celebrate? Do you really think that God cares that we are not doing it on the exact calendar day?

Anytime "MAN" decides to do something that is not Scriptural they are in error and they will be judged accordinglly.

You mean like making up restrictions on how Christians should celebrate significant events in our saviour's life on earth?

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 08:24 PM

Mickiel, it is ... not always wise to make such a sweeping judgement based on limited interaction. Truth, I have not always acknowledge those areas that I do understand of your thinking ... but by the same token, I am quite persuaded that your thinking is not an accurate reflection of the nature of God. Please take no offense at that statement--I am also persuaded that my thinking, or the thinking of any human being on this planet, is insufficient for the task.

I certainly agree with those statements, and I am not offended. I do not know God, so there is no way my thinking can reflect his, and I too believe no human does reflect Gods thinking.

But before you make a summary evaluation of my understanding of God, perhaps it would be wise to ask me what I understand. We will not always agree, to be sure, but it is always more accurate to ask than to assume.

I agree it is more accurate to ask, than assume. I am quilty of lumping those who post here in with the christians. I dislike the dispinsation of christian knowledge so much, that I often get beside myself and fail to be specific. I am interested in what you understand of God, and I will read what you post on it.

Peace, Mickiel.

technomage

October 17th 2005, 08:30 PM

I am quilty of lumping those who post here in with the christians. I dislike the dispinsation of christian knowledge so much, that I often get beside myself and fail to be specific.

:lol: For my part, I would hesitate to throw something out just because it was labeled "Christian"--like all of us, God is also beyond their understanding, but like all of us, they can "get a clue."

Indeed, that has been my fundamental message since I've been here on the forums: I don't fully understand God, and I'm pretty sure that no one else does either. But all of us have the possibility of understanding at least something about God ... and I'm not willing to throw out anyone's insight just because of what "church" they attatch themselves to.

If a person makes one hundred statements about God--ninety-nine errors and one true statement--I think it better to sift their statements for the truth, rather than toss all hundred statements and take the risk on losing that one glimmer of insight.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 08:33 PM

[QUOTE=Mujibur]Please enlighten us all with the proper day that we should celebrate Jesus' birth then. Seems to me that God made it quite a celebration when Jesus was born, what with a whole host of angels in the sky and sending shepherds from the fields, and wisemen from hundreds of miles away to come and celebrate the birth. Why should we not also celebrate? Do you really think that God cares that we are not doing it on the exact calendar day?

God did nothing celebratory in scripture on Jesus birthday. Host of angels are always in the sky, no matter what has happened on earth. God didnot send shepards, nor did he send those wise men, they went on their own decesions, not Gods orders. Jesus never celebrated his birthday, nor did any disciple celebrate Jesus or their own date of birth. christmas is a pagan celebration, period. celebrating the date of ones birth is also pagan, it is not scriptorial. but christianity itself is full of paganism, so the belief in celebrating Jesus birthday is not going to stop. Jesus said "in vain do they worship me", celebrating his birthday is a hughe vanity.

Jesus was born close to the harvest of the crops, not december the 25th. No one knows the exact date.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 08:42 PM

:lol: For my part, I would hesitate to throw something out just because it was labeled "Christian"--like all of us, God is also beyond their understanding, but like all of us, they can "get a clue."

Indeed, that has been my fundamental message since I've been here on the forums: I don't fully understand God, and I'm pretty sure that no one else does either. But all of us have the possibility of understanding at least something about God ... and I'm not willing to throw out anyone's insight just because of what "church" they attatch themselves to.

If a person makes one hundred statements about God--ninety-nine errors and one true statement--I think it better to sift their statements for the truth, rather than toss all hundred statements and take the risk on losing that one glimmer of insight.

I understand, and I agree. But I have my reasons for tossing out 100% of their understanding, and I will explain them. There is a biblical principle called " a little leaven, leavens the whole lump", meaning one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. In my view, this is what has occured to christianity, their whole head is sick( leadership) and their whole body is also( the church). I believe that. All of them are sick.

Now listen, not that I am not sick, I am, but I am just as sick of christianity, as I am spiritually sick myself, because they are a major reason I am sick. When I say sick, I mean spiritually deficent, and lacking the real God, and real true knowledge of him.

There is another biblical principle, Rev. 12:9. It states that the whole world has been deceived, In my view, that means we all are messed up concerning God. So I figure its best, for me, to refrain from those things that got me sick. So I group things together for this reason.

Kagome

October 17th 2005, 09:03 PM

In answer to the OC...I'm a Christian and I have recently aquired the belief that celebrating pagan holidays is wrong.

One such being Samhain, which is paying homage to the god of death. It's naive to look on it as "All Hallow's Eve". That was merely a futile attempt by the Church to reclaim the day. Come on, how many of us actually walk around in white robes the day AFTER Samhain to honor the Saints. You can get locked away for less.

Even traditions such as costumes and trick-or-treat are solely pagan. The Celts used to dress as demons and other evil figures, as well as give sacrifices to ward off evil spirits. See anything familiarly sugarcoated?

Honestly, I don't think half of Christians know "Halloween's" true origins. Maybe if they did, they wouldn't celebrate it. But most likely the majority of us would. All those severed hands in punch bowls and skulls are just so darn cute. That's my two cents.

technomage

October 17th 2005, 09:10 PM

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 09:18 PM

God did nothing celebratory in scripture on Jesus birthday. Host of angels are always in the sky, no matter what has happened on earth.

Luke2:13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests." 15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven,

Gee looks like the angels appeared just to praise god because of Jesus then went back to heaven.

God didnot send shepards, nor did he send those wise men, they went on their own decesions, not Gods orders.

Nobody said it was on God's orders. The shepherds when because the angels appeared and told them about Jesus, so they wanted to go and see for themselves.

Luke 2:15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about." 16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

the "wise men" or Magi, came to worship Jesus because they saw his star in the east.

Matthew 2: 1After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=2&version=31#fen-NIV-23171a)] from the east came to Jerusalem 2and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Jesus never celebrated his birthday, nor did any disciple celebrate Jesus or their own date of birth.

Just because they didn't mention it doesn't mean they didn't celebrate it. The bible never mentions anyone eliminating waste products either, but that doesn't mean that nobody in the bible ever took a dump.

JOB 1: 4[b]His sons used to go and feast in the house of each on his day (birthday) in turn, and they invited their three sisters to eat and drink with them.

christmas is a pagan celebration, period.

That is truly a moronic statement of biblical proportions. Why would pagans want to celebrate Christ's birth?????

celebrating the date of ones birth is also pagan, it is not scriptorial.

see above. also, I don't think the bible mentions anything about using computers, the internet, eating junk food, playing football, voting or watching TV. I guess you should stop doing all that too, eh?

Posting on theologyweb is unscriptural. :yes:

so you better not respond to this post or you will go to hell.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 09:28 PM

[BOX]

That is truly a moronic statement of biblical proportions. Why would pagans want to celebrate Christ's birth?????

see above. also, I don't think the bible mentions anything about using computers, the internet, eating junk food, playing football, voting or watching TV. I guess you should stop doing all that too, eh?

Posting on theologyweb is unscriptural. :yes:

so you better not respond to this post or you will go to hell.

The worship of the sun is the orgin of christmas, but you would have to really study to dig that out. but digging out deception takes more than study, more than you sarcasm, more than you may know.

Oh and by the way, the concept of going to hell is pagan, but that is beyound even theologyweb.

technomage

October 17th 2005, 09:31 PM

I understand, and I agree. But I have my reasons for tossing out 100% of their understanding, and I will explain them. There is a biblical principle called " a little leaven, leavens the whole lump", meaning one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. In my view, this is what has occured to christianity, their whole head is sick( leadership) and their whole body is also( the church). I believe that. All of them are sick.

Now listen, not that I am not sick, I am, but I am just as sick of christianity, as I am spiritually sick myself, because they are a major reason I am sick. When I say sick, I mean spiritually deficent, and lacking the real God, and real true knowledge of him.

There is another biblical principle, Rev. 12:9. It states that the whole world has been deceived, In my view, that means we all are messed up concerning God. So I figure its best, for me, to refrain from those things that got me sick. So I group things together for this reason.
Mickiel, I took the liberty of starting a new thread (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=63757) for us to discuss these issues. I hope you'll join me there.

Oh, and anyone else who wants to join in is also welcome, provided that you'll agree to abide by Basketball Court guidelines.

Mujibur

October 17th 2005, 09:48 PM

God did nothing celebratory in scripture on Jesus birthday.

13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

Sounds like celebrating to me.

Host of angels are always in the sky, no matter what has happened on earth.

Sure, but they're not visible to men on a regular basis. Notice that the shepherds were terrified when they saw the angel, so obviously it was an unusual occurence.

God did not send shepards, nor did he send those wise men, they went on their own decesions, not Gods orders.

10But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%202&version=31#fen-NIV-24977a)] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger...
15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

Maybe the shepherds did not get direct orders from the angel to go and celebrate the birth(I command you to go and see the baby Jesus), but what else would God be expecting them to do when he tells them the sign to look for?

Jesus never celebrated his birthday, nor did any disciple celebrate Jesus or their own date of birth.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. So what? Where are we told that it is wrong to celebrate birthdays? Just because it isn't mentioned in scripture does not mean that it is wrong. As has been pointed out already, the internet is not mentioned in the bible either. Should we stop communicating by it then?

christmas is a pagan celebration, period.

Celebrating the "Word becoming flesh and making his dwelling among us" is pagan?

Christmas is not about Santa, candy canes, christmas trees, the specific date of December 25...it is about celebrating Jesus coming to earth. If you have a problem with some aspect of how Christmas is celebrated, fine, but you can't say that celebrating the birth of the saviour is pagan because we do it on the same day as another pagan holiday.

celebrating the date of ones birth is also pagan, it is not scriptorial.

Again, so what? Where does the bible say that it is wrong to celebrate something like birthdays?

but christianity itself is full of paganism, so the belief in celebrating Jesus birthday is not going to stop. Jesus said "in vain do they worship me", celebrating his birthday is a hughe vanity.

Sure, if your definition of paganism is so broad. Everything is pagan. There were no vowels used in the original greek scripture. But yet we're using vowels all the time. Christianity should stop using vowels if it wants to remain pure. After all, vowels are not scriptural.

Jesus was born close to the harvest of the crops, not december the 25th. No one knows the exact date.

So what? Is it really important that we celebrate Jesus' birth on the exact day it happened, if we do not have any accurate records of exactly what day it was?
In a similar situation, my sister's birthday is celebrated on June 1st, but that is not the real day that she was born. You see, she was adopted and the orphanage that she was given to was not told her birthday, so the nuns had to guess what day it was roughly based on how many months old she looked. Now, we all know that June 1st is probably not the exact right day, but it does not matter at all, because it is what we are celebrating that is important, not that we do it on the specific calendar day that it first occured on.

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 09:59 PM

The worship of the sun is the orgin of christmas, but you would have to really study to dig that out. but digging out deception takes more than study, more than you sarcasm, more than you may know.

Oh and by the way, the concept of going to hell is pagan, but that is beyound even theologyweb.

First, if that was the case then the pagans were not celebrating CHRISTMAS were they? They would have been celebrating "SUN WORSHIP DAY" or "winter solstice" or whatever. It would not have been Christmas. So pagans never celebrated Christmas.

Maybe you meant to say that Christians celebrated a pagan holiday?

But even that doesn't wash. Because some pagans celebrated the sun around the same time as Christians celebrate Christmas, then that means the Chrisitians are celebrating a pagan holiday? I don't think so.

If Hitler had born on July 4th, would that mean that America would celebrating Hitler's birthday on July 4th with all those fireworks?

Just because two dissimilar events are celebrated at the same time, by two completely different groups does not mean that they are celebrating each other's holidays.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 10:07 PM

[QUOTE=Mujibur][VERSE="Luke 2:13-14"]13Suddenly a great company of

Listen, I am not trying to stop you or anyone from celebrating birthdays. I couldcareless what you celebrate, I am simply discussing a topic, and what I believe and understand about the subject. Celebrating a birthday is an act of selfishness, I don't care how emotional ones reasons are. In scripture, I have seen the celebration of ones death, but nothingelse. Jesus death is the celebration of our life in eternity.

But as I have said, you want to celebrate Christ birthday, what is there to stop you? Your going to do what you want to anyway, and you are for sure not going to listen to me. I am telling you that any worship of Jesus birthday is simply done in vain. He did not ask that we do that, nor did he command that we do it, those who do it, for whatever reasons they do it, DO SO ON THEIR OWN.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 10:10 PM

[QUOTE=Sparko]First, if that was the case then the pagans were not celebrating CHRISTMAS were they? They would have been celebrating "SUN WORSHIP DAY" or "winter solstice" or whatever. It would not have been Christmas. So pagans never celebrated Christmas.

Listen, why don't you just research christmas on your own, find out where it came from, then you'll know. Then you must face the truth of why you fell for worshipping a pagan holiday.

Piebald

October 17th 2005, 10:25 PM

I am telling you that any worship of Jesus birthday is simply done in vain

You are telling us this, and nobody is listening to you because you fail to be persuasive. Choosing not to go beyond vague and overblown proclamations "You do this in vain!" is not a persuasive argument.

As usual you are big on blustering and blowing steam, but with little substance. I've already shown that the New Testament authors themselves reworked pagan mythological concepts and gave them Christian meanings.

The New Testament authors have no problem with taking an idea that is pagan and adapting it to communicate the truth about God.

worshipping a pagan holiday

Either you don't know what worshipping is or you don't know what a holiday is.

mickiel

October 17th 2005, 10:30 PM

[QUOTE=Hamster]You are telling us this, and nobody is listening to you because you fail to be persuasive. Choosing not to go beyond vague and overblown proclamations "You do this in vain!" is not a persuasive argument.

You have made an error in judgement, I am not seeking to persuade, nor do I care who listens to me.

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 10:32 PM

Listen, why don't you just research christmas on your own, find out where it came from, then you'll know. Then you must face the truth of why you fell for worshipping a pagan holiday.

:duh:

I guess the whole point of my last post just whizzed right over your head, huh?

Just because Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus around the same time that some pagans celebrated some other day does not mean Christians are celebrating the Pagan holiday.

Lots of events occur on the same days throughout history.

Even if Christians purposefully chose to celebrate Christmas at the same time some pagans celebrated the winter's solstice it does not mean that the Christians are celebrating the pagan holiday. Quite the opposite. They didn't want to celebrate the pagan holiday so they made a Christian one instead to celebrate. It would be in DEFIANCE of the pagans.

Piebald

October 17th 2005, 10:33 PM

I am not seeking to persuade

[attachment=1]

.

Pilgrim

October 17th 2005, 10:34 PM

Mujibur

October 17th 2005, 10:51 PM

:duh:

I guess the whole point of my last post just whizzed right over your head, huh?

Just because Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus around the same time that some pagans celebrated some other day does not mean Christians are celebrating the Pagan holiday.

Lots of events occur on the same days throughout history.

Even if Christians purposefully chose to celebrate Christmas at the same time some pagans celebrated the winter's solstice it does not mean that the Christians are celebrating the pagan holiday.

Actually, now that I think about it, that time that we pause to celebrate the wonders of the SUN (just after we finish opening our christmas presents) is probably a little pagan. I think I'll cut that part out of my family's christmas celebration this year.

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 10:56 PM

Actually, now that I think about it, that time that we pause to celebrate the wonders of the SUN (just after we finish opening our christmas presents) is probably a little pagan. I think I'll cut that part out of my family's christmas celebration this year.

well as long as you CELEBRATE the sun it is OK. God made it after all. Just don't go worshipping it or sending presents to it.

:biblethump:

Mujibur

October 17th 2005, 11:12 PM

well as long as you CELEBRATE the sun it is OK. God made it after all. Just don't go worshipping it or sending presents to it.

:biblethump:

No, celebrating it is wrong too. Nowhere does the bible mention that Jesus or the disciples celebrated the warmth of a nice sunny day. So clearly, celebrating not living in a perpetual dark ice age is pagan and unscriptural, and therefore wrong.

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 11:31 PM

No, celebrating it is wrong too. Nowhere does the bible mention that Jesus or the disciples celebrated the warmth of a nice sunny day. So clearly, celebrating not living in a perpetual dark ice age is pagan and unscriptural, and therefore wrong.

I guess you are right.

How about just enjoying it? Surely we can rejoice in the sun that God made?

Since the sun is what causes "day" the bible tells us to rejoice in it:

Psalm 118:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=118&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
This is the day the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.

Piebald

October 17th 2005, 11:47 PM

You can rejoice as hard as you want, but you must stay at least 10 feet from other rejoicing people while you do it, otherwise it becomes a party and parties are unbiblical. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if a simple rejoicing turned into a full-scale celebration.

Also, you may not rejoice by eating cake, or drinking something sweet. The proper Christian way to rejoice about beauty and glory is to sit in a quiet room and read Watchtower magazine. If you must, you may move your feet in a rhythmic manner for a few moments while you read.

Shadow Phoenix

October 17th 2005, 11:51 PM

Alright. I've decided to follow suit. I am avoiding all pagan ideas entirely!

Tomorrow, I'm selling my car. It's a Saturn and we can't have those saturns around here.

I'm gonna tell my parents to ditch their wedding rings! Can't have those around here! All that paganism won't be allowed in this household!

I'm burning my calendars! You'll never hear me talk about those days of the week named after Greek gods! Nope! I am going to be pagan-free!

Maybe we should all ditch Theologyweb also. Theology comes from two Greek words and those Greeks were definitely pagans! It's gonna be awesome when we finally remove ourselves from paganism.

I'm also going to be going through my Bible anyhow with scissors. Paul quoted pagan writers often. I can't have that! I definitely can't have that quote about "kicking against the goads" that Jesus gave to Paul as well. That's straight out of pagan literature! Sorry, but I'm not having any pagan words in Jesus's mouth.

Join me everyone! Let's all walk around without calendars and wedding rings and cut out our Bibles. There'll be no paganism among us!

Sparko

October 17th 2005, 11:58 PM

Shadow Phoenix

October 17th 2005, 11:59 PM

You are using the ROMAN alphabet!!! Pagan!! Heretic!!! Burninate! BURNINATE!!! :glare:

So are you! To the stake with you infidel!

Mujibur

October 18th 2005, 12:01 AM

I guess you are right.

How about just enjoying it? Surely we can rejoice in the sun that God made?

Since the sun is what causes "day" the bible tells us to rejoice in it:

Psalm 118:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=118&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
This is the day the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.

Okay, but just don't be glad it's sunny.

Sparko

October 18th 2005, 12:01 AM

So are you! To the stake with you infidel!

but I never said I was giving up all pagan things. YOU DID!

That makes you a hypocrite!!

(thats a pagan word that means someone who says one thing but does another)

Lady Gooner

October 18th 2005, 03:40 AM

oh you foolish Galatians T~webbers

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Birthdays : the Second Birth ; a Birthday ; a day on which we are born (again)

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?

Luk 15:9 And when she hath found [it], she calleth [her] friends and [her] neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth

Christmas / or Incarnation of Jesus ? look at the people who were ready for Jesus' first coming and the types who werent, hmmm :huh: which type are you and will you be ready for his second?

Easter / First fruits / resurrection of Jesus ?

Subtle difference :yes: but what would we do without generalisations :huh: afterall it makes it so much easier to state our case: next you'll be saying all fraggles are muppets? :shocked:

Magi : your account is all wrong read matthew 2 (Jesus was a young child when they visited him, also being Magi they undoubtadely came from babylon and they were star watchers (astronomers) so dont mention them they could be pagan :wink:

mickiel

October 18th 2005, 08:03 PM

[QUOTE=Sparko]:duh:

I guess the whole point of my last post just whizzed right over your head, huh?

Oh I understand your point, and I consider it meaningless. I don't care how your mentality trys to reason it away, if you are christian, then your religion, as a whole, celebrates christmas as Christ birthday. There is so much paganism involved in christmas, its rediculus. Literally every physical item associated with the holiday is of pagan orgin. It is a satanic masterpeice, and of course christians have swallowed in hook line and sinker. All of you can joke about it and the other silly ways you treat things like this, but to me it is an example of the weak spirituality of the christian mind.

mickiel

October 18th 2005, 08:08 PM

[QUOTE=mickiel]
Don't be dishonest. If you didn't care you wouldn't be talking at all.

You have made an error in judgement, I am not a dishonest man. Most of the conversations I hold, I do not care for the person I am speaking too. Not caring does not silence me. You just don't understand that. You just do not understand a man such as me. I can talk to you and not care nothing about you. I even date women I care nothing for. ( I need to stop doing that).

Piebald

October 18th 2005, 08:28 PM

There is so much paganism involved in christmas, its rediculus. Literally every physical item associated with the holiday is of pagan orgin. It is a satanic masterpeice, and of course christians have swallowed in hook line and sinker.

Are you daft? I've already shown how the New Testament makes use of so-called "evil" pagan concepts, so you can't say that Christmas is "satanic" unless you also say that the New Testament is "satanic."

But, right, Mickiel just doesn't care --- the calling card of the disingenuous pundit who wants to drop irrational bombs like the above quote without accepting any responsibility for how shoddy the arguments are. Is it a lousy argument? The person with the feigned apathy responds, "I don't care!" in order to do away with his responsibility to support himself intellectually.

A person who doesn't care about doing the job done right does a sloppy and incompetent job.

You don't care, and the result of your apathy (feigned or real) is sloppy, unconvincing faux-arguments: this is apparently the fruit of your "spiritual life."

mickiel

October 18th 2005, 09:28 PM

[QUOTE=Hamster]Are you daft? I've already shown how the New Testament makes use of so-called "evil" pagan concepts, so you can't say that Christmas is "satanic" unless you also say that the New Testament is "satanic."

I do not accept what you have shown, it was not even for my mind to consider. christmas is satanic because satan is more involved in it than God. God could careless about christmas, or any of the holidays of men. I intend on being like God one distant day, so I do not care about them either. I like thanksgiving and veterans day because in my view, they have valid meaning. I agree with what these days mean. If you only knew the real meaning behing a christmas reef. santa claus. the day christmas itself. And I do not intend to tell you, find out for yourself. As I have said, it is NOT my intent to persuade any christian of anything. I know the fruitlessness of that endeaver. I am not called to change christianitys mind of anything.

Piebald

October 18th 2005, 10:02 PM

I do not accept what you have shown, it was not even for my mind to consider

Do you have a rational reason for why you don't accept it, or is it just because you have an emotional investment in your opinion?

satan is more involved in it than God. God could careless about christmas

Yeah, so there is a big celebration on Earth celebrating Satan somehow, and God doesn't care about it.

More apathy. Apathy to safeguard opinions one has emotional investments in. Strange how the Creator is always in the image of the believer, isn't it? And with Apathy being the opposite of Agape, who here is actually imitating Satan?

mickiel

October 18th 2005, 10:13 PM

Do you have a rational reason for why you don't accept it, or is it just because you have an emotional investment in your opinion?

Yes, I have rational reason, and I also have emotional investment in my opinions. But that is the first thing you have stated that I like, emotional investment in an opinion. I think that is a profound statement, that can blind people to reason.

More apathy. Apathy to safeguard opinions one has emotional investments in. Strange how the Creator is always in the image of the believer, isn't it? And with Apathy being the opposite of Agape, who here is actually imitating Satan?

I have never said I represent God, because I do not, your religion has given that impression, and the opinion of christians is very well known to be they are Gods annointed. I do not belong to Gods annointed called out, and I do not believe christianity is that annointed. I do not know who is, I just know who is not. I do not accept your views you stated because I know they are wrong, that is sufficent rationality for me.

rightlyso

October 18th 2005, 10:44 PM

I have never said I represent God, because I do not, your religion has given that impression, and the opinion of christians is very well known to be they are Gods annointed. I do not belong to Gods annointed called out, and I do not believe christianity is that annointed. I do not know who is, I just know who is not. I do not accept your views you stated because I know they are wrong, that is sufficent rationality for me.

hey man, you sound very arrogant and condemning. Jesus has nothing to do with arrogance or condemnation. a person who has a genuine love for God gleans a genuine love and compassion for the world, and especially for other people who profess to love the same God (Jesus). in keeping with God's love and compassion, that person would offer a gentle and humble rebuke, not a haughty jab in the face to other "branches on the True Vine". you need to check yourself, homie.

and i have this honest question for you: can you offer some acceptable alternative methods of celebrating the birth and ressurection of Jesus as national holidays?

Pilgrim

October 19th 2005, 09:59 AM

Hey Hamster, it's pearls before swine man. Just pearls before swine.

Pereynol of Sheer Dread

October 19th 2005, 10:21 AM

Who spiked the eggnog? :eek:

mickiel

October 19th 2005, 06:29 PM

hey man, you sound very arrogant and condemning. Jesus has nothing to do with arrogance or condemnation. a person who has a genuine love for God gleans a genuine love and compassion for the world, and especially for other people who profess to love the same God (Jesus). in keeping with God's love and compassion, that person would offer a gentle and humble rebuke, not a haughty jab in the face to other "branches on the True Vine". you need to check yourself, homie.

I do admit to being arrogant, and I do not know Jesus but from my study of the bible I disagree with you saying Jesus has nothing to do with arrogance and condemnation. You are just totally wrong in you thoughts. Paul was arrogant and not only condemning, but he was worse on christians than I am, he was killing them. And God called him as his own servant. And Paul was not the only arrogant man Jesus called, he called many arrogant people, just study more and you may see that.

and i have this honest question for you: can you offer some acceptable alternative methods of celebrating the birth and ressurection of Jesus as national holidays?

I offer what God himself has, nothing. It is not Gods will that we celebrate the birth of Jesus. But now the bible does offer a method of celebrating his ressurection, it is called communion, and Jesus said as often as you do it, remember me. This is an example of Jesus sanctioning his people to do things. christians just have the gall to create their own ways of doing things, and then they act as if God has sanctioned their ideals.

Shadow Phoenix

October 19th 2005, 08:46 PM

Sigh. Does it seem to anybody else that these people that are always into how rigtheous they are because they don't celebrate Christmas just came out of "Attack of the Clones" or something? They're always the exact same in their argument, their presentation of argument, and their belief.

This question has been answered a few hundred times in the past. If these people want to remove paganism entirely in anyway, then again, rename the planets, shred your calendar, go through the Bible with scissors, get rid of wedding rings, etc.

Or you can simply realize that those pagan ideas didn't last because an idea that was rooted in truth conquered them. That is the idea of Christ.

Of course, since they don't know who Jesus really is and deny the incarnation and other such doctrines, I can understand why they wouldn't celebrate the birth of Jesus on Earth or the resurrection of Christ. They have nothing to celebrate after all.

mickiel

October 19th 2005, 09:13 PM

[QUOTE=ApologiaNick]Sigh. Does it seem to anybody else that these people that are always into how rigtheous they are because they don't celebrate Christmas just came out of "Attack of the Clones" or something? They're always the exact same in their argument, their presentation of argument, and their belief.

Every group I have studied that follow God or a type of God consider themselves righteous for one reason or another. It is not the different thing they do or do not do that causes the self righteousness, it is the very act of following God that causes it. Following God can be very seductive, it can change a whole mental atmosphere, and keep it changed for a lifetime, and most often the person is no better off than they were before the change.

Of all the religous groups I have studied, and I have examined over a thousand, christianity has the most seduced minds I have seen. What it has done to the minds of people is astounding, espically in the area of self righteousness. I don't see how any christian can call someone self righteous, and be credible.

In the end I know all christians will be saved, as will everyonelse, so I am not condemning any christian to hell, that is one of their favorite pastimes. But I just fail to see how any mind that thinks itself spiritual, cannot reconize that God designed the earth to be full of paganism, and understand that it is so ingrossed into earth, that literally nothing can be free of it totally. Its just beyound me why that is not understood.

Pilgrim

October 19th 2005, 09:30 PM

So what causes your self righteousness Mick?

Shadow Phoenix

October 19th 2005, 09:51 PM

Every group I have studied that follow God or a type of God consider themselves righteous for one reason or another. It is not the different thing they do or do not do that causes the self righteousness, it is the very act of following God that causes it. Following God can be very seductive, it can change a whole mental atmosphere, and keep it changed for a lifetime, and most often the person is no better off than they were before the change.

Now I find this interesting. Following God makes someone self-righteous? So does that mean then that the more I follow God, the more self-righteous I will become?

btw, doesn't this assume that each group is following God? Chrsitians say God is a Trinity, but they follow God. Jews say he's a monad as do Muslims, but they're following him. Pantheists say he's the creation itself, but they're following him. Classical Buddhists say he doesn't exist. Hmmm. Might not work there.

Of all the religous groups I have studied, and I have examined over a thousand, christianity has the most seduced minds I have seen. What it has done to the minds of people is astounding, espically in the area of self righteousness. I don't see how any christian can call someone self righteous, and be credible.

We can call them self-righteous if the shoe fits. Even if I am self-righteous, it does not follow that someone else isn't just because I say they are. I can be a thief and call someone else a thief and have that be a true statement.

Now can you show me where this fits in the teachings of Christ? Especially since in Romans 12:3 we are told to think no more of ourselves than we ought. Pride has been condemned as the worst of sins by many a Christian. C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" has much to say on this subject. If Christians have pride, that's just when they're not following Christ properly.

In the end I know all christians will be saved, as will everyonelse, so I am not condemning any christian to hell, that is one of their favorite pastimes. But I just fail to see how any mind that thinks itself spiritual, cannot reconize that God designed the earth to be full of paganism, and understand that it is so ingrossed into earth, that literally nothing can be free of it totally. Its just beyound me why that is not understood.

We'll all be saved? First off, I'm wondering how you know this. You make it sound like truth doesn't matter. You can think God's a Trinity. You can think he's a monad. You can think he's the creation. You can think anything about him, and you'll be saved. Well if truth doesn't matter to God, why should it matter to me?

Secondly, you say you know this. I want to know how you know this. What is your source?

Lastly, if the Earth is so engrossed with paganism, then your point kind of backfires. I can say avoiding Christmas has just as much paganism as celebrating it supposedly does.

mickiel

October 19th 2005, 09:58 PM

So what causes your self righteousness Mick?

The strength in my mind.

mickiel

October 19th 2005, 10:04 PM

[QUOTE=ApologiaNick]Now I find this interesting. Following God makes someone self-righteous? So does that mean then that the more I follow God, the more self-righteous I will become?

I believe so. The closer one gets to power, the more powerful they become themselves. The human mind will naturally think more of itself than it ought. God would have to give the person more weakness to keep them humble. This happened to Paul. I believe God kept certain weaknesses in him to keep him from becomming more powerful than he was.

btw, doesn't this assume that each group is following God? Chrsitians say God is a Trinity, but they follow God. Jews say he's a monad as do Muslims, but they're following him. Pantheists say he's the creation itself, but they're following him. Classical Buddhists say he doesn't exist. Hmmm. Might not work there.

They follow him in their own minds in their own ways and means.

We Now can you show me where this fits in the teachings of Christ? Especially since in Romans 12:3 we are told to think no more of ourselves than we ought. Pride has been condemned as the worst of sins by many a Christian. C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" has much to say on this subject. If Christians have pride, that's just when they're not following Christ properly.

There is no such thing as anybody following Christ properly, christians just think they do.

We'll all be saved? First off, I'm wondering how you know this. You make it sound like truth doesn't matter. You can think God's a Trinity. You can think he's a monad. You can think he's the creation. You can think anything about him, and you'll be saved. Well if truth doesn't matter to God, why should it matter to me?

Secondly, you say you know this. I want to know how you know this. What is your source?

The bible is my source. There are over 100 verses showing universal salvation.

Shadow Phoenix

October 19th 2005, 10:14 PM

Ya need to work on using the quoting system some first off. it'd make things a lot easier.

I believe so. The closer one gets to power, the more powerful they become themselves. The human mind will naturally think more of itself than it ought. God would have to give the person more weakness to keep them humble. This happened to Paul. I believe God kept certain weaknesses in him to keep him from becomming more powerful than he was.

This does not follow. God is infinite, so we become more infinite? God is necessary, so we become more necessary? God is omnipresent, so that means that people that have the most mass in the universe are closest to God?

Actually, the closer one really gets to God, the more humble they'll become. They'll realize that he is God and they are not.

They follow him in their own minds in their own ways and means.

This seems to assume though that there is no objective reality to God. It implies that God can be contradictory. He can be triune and be a monad both. However, how can he be a God of truth if his own nature is contradictory? By this, he could be all-good and all-evil and there would be no problem. He could decide in the end to send all the saved to Hell and all the lost to Heaven. Do you know the can of worms you open by such an idea?

No. God is either a Trinity or he is not a Trinity. He is either revealed in Jesus Christ or he is not revealed in Jesus Christ. Christianity is either the only way or it is NOT the only way. There is no middle ground.

There is no such thing as anybody following Christ properly, christians just think they do.

Show me a Christian who thinks they do and I'll show you a hypocrite. The claim is not that we do follow Christ perfectly. The claim is that we're trying, and it'll be much harder to disprove that one.

The bible is my source. There are over 100 verses showing universal salvation.

The Bible? Why stick with that one? Why not the Talmud? Why not the Koran? Why not the Bhagavad-Gita? Why not the Book of Mormon, or Science and Health, or the Watchtower? If God is revealed in all these religions, then let's go to all the books.

Of course, if you want to use the Bible, that'd require starting another thread with the supposed claim that the Bible teaches universalism.

mickiel

October 19th 2005, 10:23 PM

[QUOTE=ApologiaNick]Ya need to work on using the quoting system some first off. it'd make things a lot easier.

I don't know how.

Actually, the closer one really gets to God, the more humble they'll become. They'll realize that he is God and they are not.

I certainly do not believe this. The mere future God is offering humanity is so magnamus, so wonderful, it is not possible to think about him in humility. I cannot see that. What God is going to do is literally turn humanity into a God family, totally new powerful beings. There is no humility possible in that. Unless God himself installs it.

Sparko

October 19th 2005, 10:31 PM

Ya need to work on using the quoting system some first off. it'd make things a lot easier.

I don't know how.

Its really easy. When you press reply to respond to a post have you noticed that the quoted text that is inserted into your editing window has [Quote=Sparko] at the beginning and at the end (which for some reason you always erase?)

Those are quote tags. If you put at the beginning of the text you want to quote and then put at the end of it. It will put the text in the quote box when you post the reply.

For example: Hi there!!!

Will look like:

Hi There!!!

Alternately you can select the text you want to quote with your mouse to highlight it, then pick the QUOTE icon in the tool bar at the top of the editor window. It looks like a white oval with a ! in the middle

mickiel

October 20th 2005, 06:54 PM

[QUOTE=mickiel]

Its really easy. When you press reply to respond to a post have you noticed that the quoted text that is inserted into your editing window has at the end (which for some reason you always erase?)

Those are quote tags. If you put at the end of it. It will put the text in the quote box when you post the reply.

For example:

Will look like:

Alternately you can select the text you want to quote with your mouse to highlight it, then pick the QUOTE icon in the tool bar at the top of the editor window. It looks like a white oval with a ! in the middle

Thank You, I will try.

sonofyah

October 21st 2005, 09:59 AM

Ya need to work on using the quoting system some first off. it'd make things a lot easier.

This does not follow. God is infinite, so we become more infinite? God is necessary, so we become more necessary? God is omnipresent, so that means that people that have the most mass in the universe are closest to God?

Actually, the closer one really gets to God, the more humble they'll become. They'll realize that he is God and they are not.

[QUOTE]The Bible? Why stick with that one? Why not the Talmud? Why not the Koran? Why not the Bhagavad-Gita? Why not the Book of Mormon, or Science and Health, or the Watchtower? If God is revealed in all these religions, then let's go to all the books.

Of course, if you want to use the Bible, that'd require starting another thread with the supposed claim that the Bible teaches universalism.

The Holy Scriptures donot teach universalism but the Catholics due. This statement can be true if you base your statement on the what the first King James Bible teaches. The 1611 KJV Bible has the Apocrapha in it, now it doesnt.

The reason why I made this fact known to you is b/c UNIVERSAL CHURCH is what Catholic means. Also, if you look at the paganism that surrounds the UNIVERSAL church it will confirm that the holidays christians are not suppose to celebrate have a source. Im not saying thats the only source but since the catholic church is a christian body and one of the organizations that control this world its common that other christian bodies will follow there universal paganism, See Simon Magnus.

Now, we have different bibles that teach some truth but not all the truth. This is why you have to be in touch with the Holy Spirit to understand it. The word says that when the spirit come he will lead you into ALL truth. If YHWH didnt know the Word would be changed, Duet.4:2 would not be in there. Understand that All Scripture is inspired by Elohim and man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that procedes out of the mouth of the heavenly father. What we have here is instructions to trust nothing but the VOICE of YHWH Elohim. Anything else will be of Satan.

John from Ebla

October 21st 2005, 10:41 AM

[QUOTE=ApologiaNick]Ya need to work on using the quoting system some first off. it'd make things a lot easier.

This does not follow. God is infinite, so we become more infinite? God is necessary, so we become more necessary? God is omnipresent, so that means that people that have the most mass in the universe are closest to God?

Actually, the closer one really gets to God, the more humble they'll become. They'll realize that he is God and they are not.

.

The Holy Scriptures donot teach universalism but the Catholics due. This statement can be true if you base your statement on the what the first King James Bible teaches. The 1611 KJV Bible has the Apocrapha in it, now it doesnt.

The reason why I made this fact known to you is b/c UNIVERSAL CHURCH is what Catholic means. Also, if you look at the paganism that surrounds the UNIVERSAL church it will confirm that the holidays christians are not suppose to celebrate have a source. Im not saying thats the only source but since the catholic church is a christian body and one of the organizations that control this world its common that other christian bodies will follow there universal paganism, See Simon Magnus.

Now, we have different bibles that teach some truth but not all the truth. This is why you have to be in touch with the Holy Spirit to understand it. The word says that when the spirit come he will lead you into ALL truth. If YHWH didnt know the Word would be changed, Duet.4:2 would not be in there. Understand that All Scripture is inspired by Elohim and man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that procedes out of the mouth of the heavenly father. What we have here is instructions to trust nothing but the VOICE of YHWH Elohim. Anything else will be of Satan.

So what about the church of GOD that observes Passover, tabernacle and so- are they pagan because they are not according to scriptures, they can only be held in Jerusalem. Then what about the Jewish feasts that are held by Jews today, but not written in scriptures. :ahem: I don’t believe Catholic is universal- is Jewish Universal?

Kind regards

Pilgrim

October 21st 2005, 11:31 AM

Son of Ya, typically is confusing terms. "c"atholic does in fact mean "universal". While "C"atholic refers, in common theological langauge, the specific denomination of Roman Catholicism.

36grit

October 21st 2005, 09:52 PM

Santa Clause is one of the most obvious false gods on the planet

Recognitiones

October 21st 2005, 10:01 PM

See Simon Magnus.
You mean Magus; I only mention this because the Latin "Magnus" means "great," while Simon Magus was not. Peace

Pilgrim

October 22nd 2005, 10:06 AM

Santa Clause is one of the most obvious false gods on the planet
Err..ok, but who worships good ole' Kris Kringle as a god?

John from Ebla

October 23rd 2005, 07:11 AM

Err..ok, but who worships good ole' Kris Kringle as a god?

Hollywood and the movie lovers :lol:

Kind Regards
JFE

Pilgrim

October 23rd 2005, 09:51 AM

I'm a movie lover and I don't worship Santa Clause as a god? So is there anything more specific?

John from Ebla

October 23rd 2005, 11:26 AM

I'm a movie lover and I don't worship Santa Clause as a god? So is there anything more specific?

Did you like on 34th street.? l think that is title :ahem:

Isn’t santa-the god of "Commercialism"? and this god can be in many forms, not just in the form of "santa"

Kind regards
John From Ebla

Piebald

October 23rd 2005, 11:28 AM

We're getting a little casual with the 'god' title. After all, oxygen might be our god! "In him we move and have our existence" and all that :smile:

Pilgrim

October 23rd 2005, 03:27 PM

Did you like on 34th street.? l think that is title :ahem:

Isn’t santa-the god of "Commercialism"? and this god can be in many forms, not just in the form of "santa"

Kind regards
John From Ebla
Oh, I get it, in your understanding if you "like" something then that thing is a god?

John from Ebla

October 23rd 2005, 10:30 PM

Oh, I get it, in your understanding if you "like" something then that thing is a god?

No, but it is interesting. What would santa be without the media, your hollywood and the commercial world- isnt's the charactor just product of "Commercialism"? and this god can be in many forms, not just in the form of "santa"

Look at what the Rabbi's are doing in the US with Koshia stores- saying pagan , pagan food, buy our food that are Rabbi endorsed- commercialism does come in many forms.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

Pilgrim

October 23rd 2005, 10:39 PM

John from Ebla

October 23rd 2005, 11:10 PM

Well, kosher laws for the Jew go way back before any American market but I suppose as money is a root of all kinds of evil that people would naturally use the Koser restrictions as a way to make money.

I see it in the Christian church too. Catalogs that sell church supplies always have higher prices than any other catalog. Buy a table from the Christian catalog and you pay a lot more than if you buy it at another store because the Christian catalog figures you're a captive audience.

Good point , now we are on to something.

Which feasts on the Jewish calendar is done in similar fashion to the Christian Christmas. E.g. Christians have the story of Jesus and his birth, but they were not told to observe it. :ahem: A little hint? Ok, think of a story in the O/T, that was plot against the Jews :blush: You guessed it- they were never told to observe it.

So, where we go from Here.

Kind regards
john From Ebla

Pilgrim

October 24th 2005, 07:08 AM

John from Ebla

October 24th 2005, 09:02 AM

Well, I don't know about where we go, but I'll continue to observe Christmas. There are many things we are not told to do in scripture but that are ok to engage in. For example, using the computer and the internet as a means of communicating theology or the gospel. If you truly belive that if scripture does not comand it then we can not do it then you need to stop using the theology web as a means by which you try to publish your theological stances.

l agree, l can't see why one day (Christmas) would be pagan while another (Purim) would not be if neither were instructed in scriptures. But at the time, l do believe Christmass may have been hijacked by the gods of commercialism, not that Christians observe a pagan day. :smile:

Just in case you were not aware- Purim is about the Jews who were narrowly spared (By Esther who was the Jewish wife of King Xerxes) and in memory of the occasion the Feast of Purim was initiated- what is interesting is that so many Jews and Muslims and in China even Buddhist say, “Merry Christmas” then when ask if the believe in Jesus they say, “Oh no, of course not” It is out of this same group of people that you hear, “Christian observe a pagan day” because it was not instructed in scripture.

So l too, don’t really know where we go from here.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

Pilgrim

October 24th 2005, 09:37 AM

I think you're right on in the first paragraph there. As a Minister of Word and Sacrament I see it as my job to help the congregants in the church I serve understand why it is important to take back the original Christian message that we gave to the celebration. In general I think it is key that through the gospel we redeem all days.

Lady Gooner

October 24th 2005, 10:52 AM

Esther 9 16 Meanwhile, the remainder of the Jews who were in the king's provinces also assembled to protect themselves and get relief from their enemies. They killed seventy-five thousand of them but did not lay their hands on the plunder. 17 This happened on the thirteenth day of the month of Adar, and on the fourteenth they rested and made it a day of feasting and joy.

Purim Celebrated
18 The Jews in Susa, however, had assembled on the thirteenth and fourteenth, and then on the fifteenth they rested and made it a day of feasting and joy.
19 That is why rural Jews—those living in villages—observe the fourteenth of the month of Adar as a day of joy and feasting, a day for giving presents to each other.

20 Mordecai recorded these events, and he sent letters to all the Jews throughout the provinces of King Xerxes, near and far, 21 to have them celebrate annually the fourteenth and fifteenth days of the month of Adar 22 as the time when the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month when their sorrow was turned into joy and their mourning into a day of celebration. He wrote them to observe the days as days of feasting and joy and giving presents of food to one another and gifts to the poor.

23 So the Jews agreed to continue the celebration they had begun, doing what Mordecai had written to them.

John from Ebla : Granted Purim is not one of the Lords feasts (Leviticus 23) but the Bible gives reason why Jews celebrate it, and were in fact instructed by Mordecai to do so

John from Ebla

November 3rd 2005, 03:26 AM

Granted Purim is not one of the Lords feasts (Leviticus 23) but the Bible gives reason why Jews celebrate it, and were in fact instructed by Mordecai to do so

The Bible gives reasons.
That is the same as Christmas (Jesus was born to free people from sin, those that believe) As Mordecai instructed them to do so, well so does the Pope. Pope =Mordecai - they both instructed a feast that was not instructed, and both feast have a story about deliverance.

l don't see how one can be pagan and the other not. But l do think christmas was hijacked.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 3rd 2005, 09:49 AM

what is interesting is that so many Jews and Muslims and in China even Buddhist say, “Merry Christmas” then when ask if the believe in Jesus they say, “Oh no, of course not” It is out of this same group of people that you hear, “Christian observe a pagan day” because it was not instructed in scripture.I guess you aren't aware that Muslims are looking forward to the second coming of Isa=Jesus to bring in the kingdom of God and it will be Isa who judges the righteous and unrighteous. So it is not amazing that they are willing to celebrate his original birth (they do consider him the prophet promised by Moses). I also guess you aren't aware that the Nestorian Christians established themselves in China umpteen centuries ago; St Thomas is known to have travelled to India umpteen centuries ago and established congegations believing in Christ there (the relics/churches still exist) etc etc. The point is that the tradition of Christ is known in the East, and in one way or another respected. I agree Dec 25th is all about commercialism but so is Feb 6 (orthodox epiphany=Christmas). Ultimately, there is only one day that Christians are asked to observe/remember=the day of the crucifixion or more precisely the last supper="keep doing this in remembrance of me." As the scriptures suggest - what profit is there in ones birth, the works of a man are not revealed until his death. It is Jesus' works we are meant to celebrate. For they mean eternal life to us.

The one thing all of us should be aware is that the two greatest set dates in the "Christian Calender" are the feast of Astoreth and the feast of Saturnalia. Both pagan fertility festivals. By most expert estimate: Jesus was born in October about 6BC and he was crucified on Nissan 14th (the first full moon in late March/ Early April). Interestingly about every 18years Jews & the Churches celebrate "Good Friday" on the same day.

John from Ebla

November 3rd 2005, 11:05 AM

I guess you aren't aware that Muslims are looking forward to the second coming of Isa=Jesus to bring in the kingdom of God and it will be Isa who judges the righteous and unrighteous. So it is not amazing that they are willing to celebrate his original birth (they do consider him the prophet promised by Moses). I also guess you aren't aware that the Nestorian Christians established themselves in China umpteen centuries ago; St Thomas is known to have travelled to India umpteen centuries ago and established congegations believing in Christ there (the relics/churches still exist) etc etc. The point is that the tradition of Christ is known in the East, and in one way or another respected. I agree Dec 25th is all about commercialism but so is Feb 6 (orthodox epiphany=Christmas). Ultimately, there is only one day that Christians are asked to observe/remember=the day of the crucifixion or more precisely the last supper="keep doing this in remembrance of me." As the scriptures suggest - what profit is there in ones birth, the works of a man are not revealed until his death. It is Jesus' works we are meant to celebrate. For they mean eternal life to us.

The one thing all of us should be aware is that the two greatest set dates in the "Christian Calender" are the feast of Astoreth and the feast of Saturnalia. Both pagan fertility festivals. By most expert estimate: Jesus was born in October about 6BC and he was crucified on Nissan 14th (the first full moon in late March/ Early April). Interestingly about every 18years Jews & the Churches celebrate "Good Friday" on the same day.

Interesting- l don't observe Good Friday (simple put, figures don't add up from Friday to Sunday morning) and l am aware of most of what you wrote. Thanks :smile:

Kind regards
John from Ebla

apostoli

November 3rd 2005, 07:24 PM

Hi John from Ebla,
Interesting- l don't observe Good Friday (simple put, figures don't add up from Friday to Sunday morning) and l am aware of most of what you wrote. ThanksI'm not dogmatic on public holidays (pagan or not) but some groups/people really are...

If I may share what I find an amusing tale: I live in an area that is predominately Muslim. Two years back the local Mall (so not to offend anyone) decided not to have Christmas. A lot of the Muslims here were really offended, so last year the Mall had Christmas. The whole issue arose because the previous year in a Jewish area a Jewish lawyer sued someone (and won) because he was offended by hearing Christmas Carols.

As for Good Friday. When I was a little kid, my city was closed (nothing was open except churches) until 3pm every Good Friday by law. That doesn't happen now. But it makes me reflect back on my dad who even though he was not particularly religious, went to church twice a year Christmas Day and Easter Sunday. So I think. Even though the origins of some of the Christian festivals are pagan in origin, they serve a purpose of reminding people about God and the NT message.

Just my opinion.

John from Ebla

November 4th 2005, 02:46 AM

Hi John from Ebla,
I'm not dogmatic on public holidays (pagan or not) but some groups/people really are...

If I may share what I find an amusing tale: I live in an area that is predominately Muslim. Two years back the local Mall (so not to offend anyone) decided not to have Christmas. A lot of the Muslims here were really offended, so last year the Mall had Christmas. The whole issue arose because the previous year in a Jewish area a Jewish lawyer sued someone (and won) because he was offended by hearing Christmas Carols.

As for Good Friday. When I was a little kid, my city was closed (nothing was open except churches) until 3pm every Good Friday by law. That doesn't happen now. But it makes me reflect back on my dad who even though he was not particularly religious, went to church twice a year Christmas Day and Easter Sunday. So I think. Even though the origins of some of the Christian festivals are pagan in origin, they serve a purpose of reminding people about God and the NT message.

Just my opinion.

It's not from the pagan, it's a direct copy of the Jewish Purim.

As Mordecai instructed them to do so, well so does the Pope. Pope =Mordecai - they both instructed a feast that was not instructed, and both feast have a story about deliverance- The latter copied the former and both are a feast about gifts happiness and joy because of deliverance

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 5th 2005, 04:00 AM

It's not from the pagan, it's a direct copy of the Jewish Purim.

As Mordecai instructed them to do so, well so does the Pope. Pope =Mordecai - they both instructed a feast that was not instructed, and both feast have a story about deliverance- The latter copied the former and both are a feast about gifts happiness and joy because of deliveranceI follow your drift.

As for Purim, Mordecai seems to have decreed that the festival occur on the exact anniversary of the events that led to it (Esther 3:13; 8:12; 9:1;9:13-21). Which reflects the original intent of the ancient christian churches (particularly in the East) which dated the resurrection from the passover of the jews (Nisan 14th). In the West (the Roman Church) there seems to have been a need to de-judise everything, so adopted the Roman calender and celebrated Easter on the Sun's day (Easter in the west fell on a different date every year). Historically, the date for Easter wasn't set for all the churches until 325AD at the Council of Nicaea. The council ruled that the Easter festival should be celebrated throughout the Christian world on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox; and that if the full moon should occur on a Sunday, Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following. In the ancient world this vernal equinox thing just happened to set the date for the pagan fertility festivals which occurred on the sun's day, so I guess the last clause was an effort to imply that although the pagan customs had been adopted, they had to be christianised.

The reality is that the churches syncetised a lot of pagan holidays. For instance in the Armenian Church: The Transfiguration (Vardavar (The feast of water)) a religious holiday, observed in June-July. In the traditional Armenian range of holidays, the Transfiguration is the major summer holiday and is celebrated 14 weeks after Easter. In pre-Christian Armenia this holiday was associated with the pagan goddess Anahit, to whose heathen temple the young and the old went on pilgrimage. The word Vardavar has two meanings: "the flaming of the rose" and "to sprinkle with water". According to legend, the goddess Astghik spread love through the Armenian land by sprinkling rosy water and presenting roses. The god Vahagn kept and protected that love, constantly fighting against evil. This feast was transformed after the adoption of Christianity. On Vardavar in modern times, everybody pours water on one another, starting in the early morning; no one is allowed to feel offended or displeased by mischief on that day.
http://www.armeniainfo.am/about/?section=holidays

Just facts of history.

The Roman church at least admits to policy of syncretisation.

John from Ebla

November 5th 2005, 04:18 AM

I can see what you mean. However, as for Purim, Mordecai seems to have decreed that the festival occur on the exact anniversary of the events that led to it (Esther 3:13; 8:12; 9:1;9:13-21). Which reflects the original intent of the ancient christian churches (particularly in the East) which dated the resurrection from the passover of the jews (Nisan 14th). In the West (the Roman Church) there seems to have been a need to de-judise everything celebrated Easter on a Sunday and fell on a different date every year. Historically, the date for Easter wasn't set for all the churches until 325AD. Council of Nicaea in that time. The council unanimously ruled that the Easter festival should be celebrated throughout the Christian world on the first Sunday after the full moon following the vernal equinox; and that if the full moon should occur on a Sunday and thereby coincide with the Passover festival, Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following. Coincidence of the feasts of Easter and Passover was thus avoided. In the ancient world this vernal equinox thing just happened to set the date for the pagan fertility festivals which occurred on the sun's day.

The reality is that the churches syncetised a lot of pagan holidays. For instance in the Armenian Church: The Transfiguration (Vardavar (The feast of water)) a religious holiday, observed in June-July. In the traditional Armenian range of holidays, the Transfiguration is the major summer holiday and is celebrated 14 weeks after Easter. In pre-Christian Armenia this holiday was associated with the pagan goddess Anahit, to whose heathen temple the young and the old went on pilgrimage. The word Vardavar has two meanings: "the flaming of the rose" and "to sprinkle with water". According to legend, the goddess Astghik spread love through the Armenian land by sprinkling rosy water and presenting roses. The god Vahagn kept and protected that love, constantly fighting against evil. This feast was transformed after the adoption of Christianity. On Vardavar in modern times, everybody pours water on one another, starting in the early morning; no one is allowed to feel offended or displeased by mischief on that day.
http://www.armeniainfo.am/about/?section=holidays

Just a facts of history.

The Roman church at least admits to policy of syncretisation.

I disagree, nothing was taken from pagan, all from the Jewish feast. From Pope Nicolas, some time latter, started the idea that someone had to give the gifts. Santa came in over a period of time and was a commercial hit. Bingo, the Feast that was a copybook of Purim got hijacked and the world loved it.

They just made different dates that is all.

Kind regards
John From ebla

apostoli

November 5th 2005, 02:14 PM

I disagree, nothing was taken from pagan, all from the Jewish feast. From Pope Nicolas, some time latter, started the idea that someone had to give the gifts. Santa came in over a period of time and was a commercial hit. Bingo, the Feast that was a copybook of Purim got hijacked and the world loved it.

They just made different dates that is all.In the case of Easter I might agree with your premise of Christian adaptation of Jewish Festivals. Christmas is an exception.

It was not celebrated in the ancient Christian Church. Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the 'birthdays' of the gods."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Pointedly, Christmas is not so much about the birth of Jesus, but the delivery of him by Mary. In short, it is a celebration of the "Mother of God", which in posts on another thread you seem totally against as a concept. Interestingly, during the reformation "In England, Christmas was forbidden by Act of Parliament in 1644; the day was to be a fast and a market day; shops were compelled to be open; plum puddings and mince pies condemned as heathen."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

As for St.Nic, he wasn't a pope just a kind Turkish cleric who gave out dowries. In Russia the tradition is: Babushka , a kindly grandmother and the legend is told that she declined to go with the wise men to see Jesus because of the cold weather. However, she regretted not going and set off to try and catch up, filling her basket with presents. She never found Jesus, and that is why she visits each house, leaving toys for good children.

Again regarding St.Nic: "He is patron of mariners, merchants, bakers, travellers, children, etc. His representations in art are as various as his alleged miracles. In Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands, they have the custom of making him the secret purveyor of gifts to children on 6 December, the day on which the Church celebrates his feast; in the United States and some other countries St. Nicholas has become identified with Santa Claus who distributes gifts to children on Christmas eve."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11063b.htm

As for Purin: Maybe Mordecai might simply have "converted" the Egyptian Feast of Lamps, or the local equivalent, which was held each year in commemoration of Osiris’ death and resurrection.

John from Ebla

November 6th 2005, 04:29 AM

In the case of Easter I might agree with your premise of Christian adaptation of Jewish Festivals. Christmas is an exception.

It was not celebrated in the ancient Christian Church. Quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church. Irenaeus and Tertullian omit it from their lists of feasts; Origen, glancing perhaps at the discreditable imperial Natalitia, asserts (in Lev. Hom. viii in Migne, P.G., XII, 495) that in the Scriptures sinners alone, not saints, celebrate their birthday; Arnobius (VII, 32 in P.L., V, 1264) can still ridicule the 'birthdays' of the gods."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Pointedly, Christmas is not so much about the birth of Jesus, but the delivery of him by Mary. In short, it is a celebration of the "Mother of God", which in posts on another thread you seem totally against as a concept. Interestingly, during the reformation "In England, Christmas was forbidden by Act of Parliament in 1644; the day was to be a fast and a market day; shops were compelled to be open; plum puddings and mince pies condemned as heathen."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

As for St.Nic, he wasn't a pope just a kind Turkish cleric who gave out dowries. In Russia the tradition is: Babushka , a kindly grandmother and the legend is told that she declined to go with the wise men to see Jesus because of the cold weather. However, she regretted not going and set off to try and catch up, filling her basket with presents. She never found Jesus, and that is why she visits each house, leaving toys for good children.

Again regarding St.Nic: "He is patron of mariners, merchants, bakers, travellers, children, etc. His representations in art are as various as his alleged miracles. In Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands, they have the custom of making him the secret purveyor of gifts to children on 6 December, the day on which the Church celebrates his feast; in the United States and some other countries St. Nicholas has become identified with Santa Claus who distributes gifts to children on Christmas eve."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11063b.htm

As for Purin: Maybe Mordecai might simply have "converted" the Egyptian Feast of Lamps, or the local equivalent, which was held each year in commemoration of Osiris’ death and resurrection.

You can dissagree with me, but Christmass is a copy book fo Purim- dates mean nothing, they just copied the feast and made their own date.

Read the O/T when God gave the flick to the 10 tribes of Israel- they copied the Passover that Judah was holding in the Jerusalem, at a different date and location. They copied the feast but just changed the date and location.

If you cannot find the texts then let me know.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 6th 2005, 08:38 AM

You can dissagree with me, but Christmass is a copy book fo Purim- dates mean nothing, they just copied the feast and made their own date.

Read the O/T when God gave the flick to the 10 tribes of Israel- they copied the Passover that Judah was holding in the Jerusalem, at a different date and location. They copied the feast but just changed the date and location.When I read your replies, I just can't help but think of 2 Kings 17:28-33 - particularly vs33 (KJV).

John from Ebla

November 6th 2005, 08:51 AM

When I read your replies, I just can't help think of 2 Kings 17:28-33 - particularly vs33.

Ok, that is not where he (God) gave the ten tribes the flick. In the above verse you gave me it is the Jews that are following pagans, not Christians- Jews are good at that- they also went after the Babylonian moon goddess called "Yah"

She is the Queen of Heaven, to whom, according to the reproaches of Jeremiah (vii. 18, xliv. 25), the women of Israel poured out their drink-offerings, and burnt incense, and offered cakes, regarding her as the author of their national prosperity

l will get back to you.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 6th 2005, 09:13 AM

Ok, that is not where he (God) gave the ten tribes the flick. In the above verse you gave me it is the Jews that are following pagans, not Christians- Jews are good at that- they also went after the Babylonian moon goddess called "Yah"

She is the Queen of Heaven, to whom, according to the reproaches of Jeremiah (vii. 18, xliv. 25), the women of Israel poured out their drink-offerings, and burnt incense, and offered cakes, regarding her as the author of their national prosperityYou missed the point my friend. Ignoring your previous post, I simply alluded to 2 Kings 17:33 as how I perceive those who are want to justify the adoption of pagan holidays, rather than simply accept that the origin of the holidays are of dubious character. Given 2 Kings 17:33, it is no curiousity, that as christianity infiltrated the gentile world and moved farther from its judaic roots that more and more past (pagan) practices and beliefs were adopted into the politics of christendom.

John from Ebla

November 6th 2005, 10:56 AM

You missed the point my friend. Ignoring your previous post, I simply alluded to 2 Kings 17:33 as how I perceive those who are want to justify the adoption of pagan holidays, rather than simply accept that the origin of the holidays are of dubious character. Given 2 Kings 17:33, it is no curiousity, that as christianity infiltrated the gentile world and moved farther from its judaic roots that more and more past (pagan) practices and beliefs were adopted into the politics of christendom.

No l did not miss your point. The verses are saying how the Jews adopted pagan practices.

Jeroboam and what he did to to disburse the ten tribe world wide. (1 Kings 12:26-13 and Chapter 13 ) Yes he made his own seperate days for worship and set up his own Idols.

Now where are these 10 tribes in history? How many were throughout Rome during the 2nd and 3rd century? How many became Popes and cardinal and followed Catholic faith? Even the Current Pope has Jewish parents.

Kind regards
John from Ebla

apostoli

November 6th 2005, 08:56 PM

No l did not miss your point. The verses are saying how the Jews adopted pagan practices.

Jeroboam and what he did to to disburse the ten tribe world wide. (1 Kings 12:26-13 and Chapter 13 ) Yes he made his own seperate days for worship and set up his own Idols. Now where are these 10 tribes in history? How many were throughout Rome during the 2nd and 3rd century? How many became Popes and cardinal and followed Catholic faith? Even the Current Pope has Jewish parents.There is a flaw in your argument. The holidays had already been instigated before the Patriarch of Rome had any intrinsic power. Well at least not until the 6th century (but more particularly the 10th) when Rome seperated itself from the church. There are several popes/patriarchs in the church, each heading different geographies - the Roman one is just one of them. In the early days all decisions were made by council between the popes and their respective bishops, not by any one of them. Even in Rome, it is the Council of Cardinals that formulate doctrine and position. The Roman Pope is just their mouthpiece.

John from Ebla

November 6th 2005, 09:52 PM

There is a flaw in your argument. The holidays had already been instigated before the Patriarch of Rome had any intrinsic power. Well at least not until the 6th century (but more particularly the 10th) when Rome seperated itself from the church. There are several popes/patriarchs in the church, each heading different geographies - the Roman one is just one of them. In the early days all decisions were made by council between the popes and their respective bishops, not by any one of them. Even in Rome, it is the Council of Cardinals that formulate doctrine and position. The Roman Pope is just their mouthpiece.

Exactly, you just backed up what l said- "Jeroboam and what he did to to disburse the ten tribe world wide. (1 Kings 12:26-13 and Chapter 13 The ten tribes that got the flicks already made other days" Just like you said The holidays had already been instigated before the Patriarch of Rome had any intrinsic power.

Kind regards
john From Ebla

apostoli

November 6th 2005, 10:10 PM

Exactly, you just backed up what l said- "Jeroboam and what he did to to disburse the ten tribe world wide. (1 Kings 12:26-13 and Chapter 13 The ten tribes that got the flicks already made other days" Just like you said Indeed! In which case I will back you up either further. Most of our holidays/feasts have a reflection in holidays/feasts that pre-date even Moses!

John from Ebla

November 6th 2005, 10:30 PM

Indeed! In which case I will back you up either further. Most of our holidays/feasts have a reflection in holidays/feasts that pre-date even Moses!

Exactly, and it was the Ten tribes that got the flick that did all this. Read (1 Kings 12:26-33 and Chapter 13)Verse 26 chapter 12 "Now the kingdom will return to the house of david" He did not what that- they went to war with Judah in the O/T and the Catholicism did that through out the centuries.

Even the current Pope has Jewsih parents.

Kind regards
Jhn From Ebla

apostoli

November 7th 2005, 02:28 PM

Exactly, and it was the Ten tribes that got the flick that did all this. Read (1 Kings 12:26-33 and Chapter 13)Verse 26 chapter 12 "Now the kingdom will return to the house of david" He did not what that- they went to war with Judah in the O/T and the Catholicism did that through out the centuries.

Even the current Pope has Jewsih parents.It seems you are proposing some form of Jewish conspiracy to lead all mankind to false religion (?)

Provoker

November 7th 2005, 04:06 PM

Hi guys:
There is an important point that you both appear to be missing, which might solve many of your differences.
There are two kinds of Jew. "True" Jews, as defined by Paul, and the opposite of "true" Jews, which are defined by their Jewishness; religion, anscestry, ethnicity, family name, facial features, etc, etc.
Not to suggest that there are not Jewish people who are "True" Jews, but just that Jewishness does not make one a "True" Jew.
The point being that whether or not one's parents were "Jewish", means absolutely nothing in light of Paul's definition of "True" Judaism.
The only thing that ever identified a true Jew, was his committment to national Israel and it's national law.
Judaism began in Babylon, when it was prophesied that a messiah would resurrect the Davidic kingdom, and all the original "Judaists" were "messianic("Christian" in 1st century Greek)".
Apostolic Christianity was simply a revival of fundamental Judaism...a committment to the good news that the kingdom is going to be resurrected.
As Paul noted, to be a "True" Jew, one must have a circumcised heart, and we know that circumcision of the flesh was the sign that one had accepted the everlasting(old) covenant, and would live within the law within the nation of Israel. By extension, circumcision of the heart, is the same committment to living within the law within the coming, resurrected, nation/kingdom of Israel.
Judaism cannot be determined by any means other than looking into one's heart. If Jewishness is obvious, "True" Jewishness is not.
Whsoever has accepted the gospel of the kingdom into his heart, is a "True" Jew, first called Christian at Antioch.
What do you think?

apostoli

November 7th 2005, 07:49 PM

Hi guys:
There is an important point that you both appear to be missing, which might solve many of your differences.
There are two kinds of Jew. "True" Jews, as defined by Paul, and the opposite of "true" Jews, which are defined by their Jewishness; religion, anscestry, ethnicity, family name, facial features, etc, etc.
Not to suggest that there are not Jewish people who are "True" Jews, but just that Jewishness does not make one a "True" Jew.
The point being that whether or not one's parents were "Jewish", means absolutely nothing in light of Paul's definition of "True" Judaism.
The only thing that ever identified a true Jew, was his committment to national Israel and it's national law.
Judaism began in Babylon, when it was prophesied that a messiah would resurrect the Davidic kingdom, and all the original "Judaists" were "messianic("Christian" in 1st century Greek)".
Apostolic Christianity was simply a revival of fundamental Judaism...a committment to the good news that the kingdom is going to be resurrected.
As Paul noted, to be a "True" Jew, one must have a circumcised heart, and we know that circumcision of the flesh was the sign that one had accepted the everlasting(old) covenant, and would live within the law within the nation of Israel. By extension, circumcision of the heart, is the same committment to living within the law within the coming, resurrected, nation/kingdom of Israel.
Judaism cannot be determined by any means other than looking into one's heart. If Jewishness is obvious, "True" Jewishness is not.
Whosoever has accepted the gospel of the kingdom into his heart, is a "True" Jew, first called Christian at Antioch.
What do you think?I agree with you! (Romans 9:6-8.)

John from Ebla

November 8th 2005, 03:28 AM

I agree with you! (Romans 9:6-8.)

1) You can't agree with that, Provoker does not believe in quoted verses, he only tells stories

2) According to Romans 9:6-8 Christians that believe in Jesus are the true Jews. The False Jews such as the Catholic Church, who still follows idols (Mary) are not part of the true Jews- they have done this since (1 Kings 12:26-33 and Chapter 13). To this very day they have not stopped worshipping idols made with humans hands (Mary)- just as Jeroboam first did.

National Israel is the mother whore (they deny Jesus) and the lost tribes that now run the Catholic church is the daughter of the Mother- the Mother rejects Jesus, the daughter honors Mary. Jewish conspiracy, Yes. The Current Pope is a Jew.

Many have broke away from the daughter (Catholic practice) and straight into the arm of the Mother- USA IS NOW, "TORAH" "TORAH" "TORAH" "Jesus is not the Messiah" They are waiting for another Messiah (Not Jesus)

Quote“Into a world prepared to receive him, the Messiah will then be born. He will be a mortal human being, born normally of human parents....Now, imagine a charismatic leader greater than any other in man’s history. Imagine a political genius surpassing all others. With the vast communication networks now at our disposal, he could spread his message to the entire world and change the very fabric of our society....One possible scenario could involve the Middle East situation. This is a problem that involves all the world powers. Now imagine a Jew, a Tzadik, solving this thorny problem....such a demonstration of statesmanship and political genius would place him in a position of world leadership. The major powers would listen to such an individual....Thus, the Rambam (Maimonides) writes, ‘If he is further successful in rebuilding the Temple on its original site and gathering the dispersed of Israel, then his identity as the Messiah is a certainty’....these accomplishments are a minimum for our acceptance of an individual as the Messiah.”Rabbi Kaplan, The Real Messiah, 1976,

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 8th 2005, 11:42 AM

1) You can't agree with that, Provoker does not believe in quoted verses, he only tells storiesI can't help but agree with Provoker's last post, as he repeated the message A.Paul gave to the Romans.

2) According to Romans 9:6-8 Christians that believe in Jesus are the true Jews.Romans 9, doesn't talk about Jews but Israel (the firstborn Son of God: Ex4:22). A.Paul defines a Christian as a Jew at Rom 2:29.

The False Jews such as the Catholic Church, who still follows idols (Mary) are not part of the true Jews- they have done this since (1 Kings 12:26-33 and Chapter 13).Given your theology (Jesus is just the name of the human body in which the God spirit tabernacled) I guess you define most of the churches as idol worshipers -most of them direct their worship to Jesus: Thus worshipping the creature rather than the creator.

To this very day they have not stopped worshipping idols made with humans hands (Mary)- just as Jeroboam first did.Unlike Jeroboam and his two calves of gold; I'm not aware of any group within Christianity that worships statues etc (especially of animals); they merely use the images to focus their thought. As far as I'm aware only the Taliban are gauranteed not to use images in their worship.

National Israel is the mother whore (they deny Jesus)What about the Muslims, Hindu's, Toaists etc? On a world scale, the sum of Christendom in all its forms, is a minority religion.

and the lost tribes that now run the Catholic churchI read somewhere they ran the USA?

the Catholic church is the daughter of the Mother - the Mother rejects JesusAs I've always understood it the origins of Christianity is derived from Israel. So not just the RCC but all "Christian" groups trace themselves to the same mother.

the daughter honors Mary.So do a lot of "christian" denominations.

Jewish conspiracy, Yes. The Current Pope is a Jew.Regarding the current pope: all the apostles were Jews! In fact Jesus was a Jew!

According to the WashingtonPost Jean-Marie Lustiger is the RCC's Second Jewish Pope. The first being the apostle Peter.
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050401-022100-5163r.htm

Many have broke away from the daughter (Catholic practice) and straight into the arm of the Mother- USA IS NOW, "TORAH" "TORAH" "TORAH" "Jesus is not the Messiah" They are waiting for another Messiah (Not Jesus)Hmmm! Think about it. All the groups that protest against the Catholic church are in the USA. All forms of unorthodox teaching have originated in the USA (eg: JWs, SDA, Mormans, Pentecostal movement etc). Something very fishy going on in the USA.

Quote“Into a world prepared to receive him, the Messiah will then be born. He will be a mortal human being, born normally of human parents....Now, imagine a charismatic leader greater than any other in man’s history. Imagine a political genius surpassing all others. With the vast communication networks now at our disposal, he could spread his message to the entire world and change the very fabric of our society....One possible scenario could involve the Middle East situation. This is a problem that involves all the world powers. Now imagine a Jew, a Tzadik, solving this thorny problem....such a demonstration of statesmanship and political genius would place him in a position of world leadership. The major powers would listen to such an individual....Thus, the Rambam (Maimonides) writes, ‘If he is further successful in rebuilding the Temple on its original site and gathering the dispersed of Israel, then his identity as the Messiah is a certainty’....these accomplishments are a minimum for our acceptance of an individual as the Messiah.”Rabbi Kaplan, The Real Messiah, 1976,Maybe the Rabbi have the Dalai Lama in mind. He has more influence than the pope; especially in the USA.

I vaguely remember there being an evangelical group in the USA trying to raise money to rebuild the temple. Hmmm. Makes one wonder about the USA!

:lol:

Pilgrim

November 8th 2005, 12:17 PM

1) You can't agree with that, Provoker does not believe in quoted verses, he only tells stories

2) According to Romans 9:6-8 Christians that believe in Jesus are the true Jews. The False Jews such as the Catholic Church, who still follows idols (Mary) are not part of the true Jews- they have done this since (1 Kings 12:26-33 and Chapter 13). To this very day they have not stopped worshipping idols made with humans hands (Mary)- just as Jeroboam first did.

National Israel is the mother whore (they deny Jesus) and the lost tribes that now run the Catholic church is the daughter of the Mother- the Mother rejects Jesus, the daughter honors Mary. Jewish conspiracy, Yes. The Current Pope is a Jew.

Many have broke away from the daughter (Catholic practice) and straight into the arm of the Mother- USA IS NOW, "TORAH" "TORAH" "TORAH" "Jesus is not the Messiah" They are waiting for another Messiah (Not Jesus)

Quote“Into a world prepared to receive him, the Messiah will then be born. He will be a mortal human being, born normally of human parents....Now, imagine a charismatic leader greater than any other in man’s history. Imagine a political genius surpassing all others. With the vast communication networks now at our disposal, he could spread his message to the entire world and change the very fabric of our society....One possible scenario could involve the Middle East situation. This is a problem that involves all the world powers. Now imagine a Jew, a Tzadik, solving this thorny problem....such a demonstration of statesmanship and political genius would place him in a position of world leadership. The major powers would listen to such an individual....Thus, the Rambam (Maimonides) writes, ‘If he is further successful in rebuilding the Temple on its original site and gathering the dispersed of Israel, then his identity as the Messiah is a certainty’....these accomplishments are a minimum for our acceptance of an individual as the Messiah.”Rabbi Kaplan, The Real Messiah, 1976,

Kind regards
John From Ebla
Thanks for the good laugh brother. It made my day.

Provoker

November 8th 2005, 01:51 PM

Provoker does not believe in quoted verses, he only tells stories
Hi guys:
That should read; Provoker believes that scripture was not written in verses, but it was written to tell a story...LOL
A sentence means no more, and no less, than the original author meant when he penned it, and one way to get inside the author's mind, is to consider what he wrote, in the greater context of the story which runs with continuity, through all the books of the bible.
It doesn't really matter what anyone says about the bible(including me), it only matters what the bible says...in context.
What could be more reasonable than using the story which begins in Genesis, ends in Revelation, and maintains continuity through all the books in between, as context in which the whole is understood?
When I synopsize the bible story, by chronologicly connecting historical bible events that every Sunday school teaches to kids, how is it possible that a "bible scholar" would say; "I can't find that in the bible...give me chapter and verse."?
During the 3rd century, Christianity was divided into all kinds of sects, believing every combination of pagan and Jewish doctrines one could imagine, and Constantine did what was necessary to bring civil order to the religious communities of the empire. He called an ecumenical council, and forced all the sects to discuss their differences, and vote to produce one universal set of doctrines for the whole empire. That is when and how the official universal religion of the Roman empire began, and the rest is church history.

mickiel

November 9th 2005, 09:05 PM

Why do christians celebrate pagan holidays? Because their forefathers inherited lies about God and the bible. There need be no other reasonings. Human nature would even violate the bible, rather than to be wrong within itself. People would rather keep celebrating pagan days, than to discover truth. Why? Because truth demands change and repentance, two things that do not match self absorbed religions. christian holidays are too steeped in the pacification of self for its participants to come out of them and be seperate.

36grit

November 19th 2005, 11:09 AM

Re: Why do Christians celebrate pagan holidays?

Quite simply,
Because the devil decieved them.

He said, "You will celebrate easter and not the passover as God almighty cammanded." and he said, "Sunday will replace Saturday as the day of rest and the world shall call a man of my choosing holy father."
I tell you truley that none called Peter holy father. Jesus Christ himself was never refered to as holy father. They say, "He is a father of our church". The history of the sunday sabath reveals that this holy father and his deciples and daughter churches are led by the father of sin and now many misled people bear the mark of the beast unaware.
We celebrate pagan holidays because our fathers feared the beast more than they feared God. What will you do? Who will you defend? The time is close at hand. Will you buy sell and/or trade with me in the day it becomes against the law to buy sell and/or trade with those who observe the saturday sabbath as God commanded? It has happened in the past and will happen again.

sonofyah

November 20th 2005, 11:06 PM

Hi guys:
That should read; Provoker believes that scripture was not written in verses, but it was written to tell a story...LOL
A sentence means no more, and no less, than the original author meant when he penned it, and one way to get inside the author's mind, is to consider what he wrote, in the greater context of the story which runs with continuity, through all the books of the bible.
It doesn't really matter what anyone says about the bible(including me), it only matters what the bible says...in context.
What could be more reasonable than using the story which begins in Genesis, ends in Revelation, and maintains continuity through all the books in between, as context in which the whole is understood?
When I synopsize the bible story, by chronologicly connecting historical bible events that every Sunday school teaches to kids, how is it possible that a "bible scholar" would say; "I can't find that in the bible...give me chapter and verse."?
During the 3rd century, Christianity was divided into all kinds of sects, believing every combination of pagan and Jewish doctrines one could imagine, and Constantine did what was necessary to bring civil order to the religious communities of the empire. He called an ecumenical council, and forced all the sects to discuss their differences, and vote to produce one universal set of doctrines for the whole empire. That is when and how the official universal religion of the Roman empire began, and the rest is church history.
1 Timothy 3:16