Does anyone here believe in Bible codes?

[thebluetriangle]

...because I think I've found one.

Here's an example.

There are three mentions of the name Immanuel in the Bible. These are in Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 8:8 and Matthew 1:23. Reading these as numbers (by removing the colon) we obtain 714, 88 and 123, which sum to 925.

If we now apply the Hebrew system of alphabetic numeration to the English alphabet, whereby, A to I = 1 to 9, J to R = 10 to 90, S to Z = 100 to 800, we can numerate English words. using this system

Jesus Christ = 925

This appears to be a conscious reflection of the theme in the surface text, which is Immanuel, identified in Matthew as Jesus. Now the Bible was written, translated, chapterised and organised in such a way that it would be extremely difficult (without the ability to time travel) to arrange such a feat - unless, of course, you were an intelligence that had complete control of events over time, ie were omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

I'd be happy to discuss the philosophical and theological implications of this phenomenon with anyone.

In Christ,

BT

[Piebald]

The chapter and verse marks are not in the original writing, though, are they?

[wfaber]

There are three mentions of the name Immanuel in the Bible. These are in Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 8:8 and Matthew 1:23. Reading these as numbers (by removing the colon) we obtain 714, 88 and 123, which sum to 925.

If we now apply the Hebrew system of alphabetic numeration to the English alphabet, whereby, A to I = 1 to 9, J to R = 10 to 90, S to Z = 100 to 800, we can numerate English words. using this system

Jesus Christ = 925


The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses Rabbi Nathan in AD 1448 . Stephanus (Robert Estienne), divided the New Testament into verses in his published edition of 1555. The Geneva Bible, published in 1575, established those verse divisions and numbers as a standard for future publishers to follow.

No doubt Rabbi Nathan would have been dead by the time of the Geneva Bible, but can we suspect that there must have been some sort of conspiracy between Estienne and the publishers of the Geneva Bible to arrange the verse numbering so that those verse numbers would spell out the Angicized form of the name "Yeshua" if somebody were to add numerical values of the European alphabet in the same manner as ancient Greeks and Hebrews? That seems to be stretching credibility a little. I couldn't imagine that God would want to go through all that to conceal a hidden message.

Let's just say that it's a coincidence, if even that.

[themuzicman]

The only bible code I ever saw told me not to look for bible codes.

[wfaber]

Random house dictionary: "any system of rules or regulations; a systematically arranged collection of existing laws."


Wouldn't the Ten Commandments fit this description?

[James Peter]

Random house dictionary: "any system of rules or regulations; a systematically arranged collection of existing laws."


Wouldn't the Ten Commandments fit this description?

Very funny.

As far as the codes that everyone else is talking about, I think that Kabbalah makes sense depending on your model of inspiration but anything that involves verse numbers and english words is, quite frankly, coincidence. (i.e. if you look hard enough you'll find some 'codes' in any long document).

[thebluetriangle]

Hi WFabe, Hamster and The Muzicman!

Nice to make your aquaintances! I'll try to reply to all your questions and comments.

Hamster, you're assuming that God would only encode the original scriptures. He could just as easily encode translations, which is what I believe has been accomplished.

Muzicman, that was a wise piece of advice! I've had nothing but trouble since I found the code.

Wfaber, it is certainly possible that that the number was consciously encoded by Robert estienne, although a certain amount of luck would have been required to arrange the feat, since the basic form of the Bible was already determined. The most he would have been able to do would be to alter the verse by a few numbers. There is also the complication that the English language had no 'J' at that time. This would probably (but not certainly) have altered the numerical value.

I don't know how much bother it was for God to have acheived the encoding, although I do agree that he must have been working through the unconscious minds of the writers and translators. But then God does go to remarkable lengths for us, does he not, such as sending his only son to be crucified for us? I would suggest that the purpose of a code would be to signal his presence in this secular age, when we need God now more than ever, to encourage the believer, confound the sceptic and convince the agnostic.

Such an argument has no bearing anyway on whether the encoded numbers are there or not. The code is either real or imaginary.

Incidentally, I would define a bible code as an encrypted cyphertext, constituting a second channel of communication between God and humankind. This excludes the ten commandments.

However, I am aware that one swallow does not a summer make. Here is another example of the code. This is found in the standard 66-book protestant canon, not in the Catholic Bible or Hebrew bible. The books of the minor prophets Joel, Amos and Obadiah are found together near the end of the Old Testament. These contain, respectively, 3 chapters, 9 chapters and 1 chapter, which could be read as 391. Now the number of chapters up to the end of the middle book, Amos, is 888. So it doesn't take too much imagination to see that 888 'crosses' 391. It so happens that these are the numerical values, in their respective languages, of the Hebrew and Greek names for Jesus, symbolically crossed.

Yehoshua = 391
Ihsous = 888

Here is another encoding, which is more difficult to explain away in mundane terms. The aramaic sections of Ezra begin at Ezra 4:8 and end at Ezra 6:18, which (treating them as before) sum to 666. These encapsulate the four mentions of Tattenai, who oppossed the rebuilding of the Jerusalem temple. The first and last verses in which Tattenai is mentioned are Ezra 5:3 and 6:13, which also sum to 666. Applying the system of numeration I give above, we obtain, for Tattenai (NIV spelling)

Tattenai = 666

Now, a similar passage in Nehemiah about the opposition to the building of Jerusalem's wall is Nehemiah 4:3, which is only the third time in the Bible a fox is mentioned.

Fox = 666

The previous two verses in which foxes the subject are Judges 15:4 and 15:5. The sum of the chapter/verse numbers up to Nehemiah 4:3 is 154 + 155 + 43 = 352

satan = 352

How are we to explain this confluence of numbers, given the timespans involved? Was Rabbi Nathan in collusion with Robert Estienne and others unnamed?

In Christ,

BT

[swos]

I submit this.

Appendix C
"The So-called Bible Code", page 373
The Code Book
Simon Singh

In 1997 The Bible Code by Michael Drosnin caused headlines around the world. Drosnin claimed that the Bible contains hidden messages which could be discovered by searching for equidistant letter sequences (EDLSs). An EDLS is found by taking any text, picking a particular starting letter, then jumping forward a set number of letters at a time. So, for example, with this paragraph we could start with the "M" in Michael and jump, say, five spaces at a time. If we noted every fifth letter, we would generate the EDLS mesahirt... .

Although this particular EDLS does not contain any sensible words, Drosnin described the discovery of an astonishing number of Biblical EDLSs that not only form sensible words, but result in complete sentences. According to Drosnin, these sentences are biblical predictions. For example, he claims to have found references to the assassinations of John. F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and Anwar Sadat. In one EDLS the name of Newton is mentioned next to gravity, and in another Edison is linked with the lightbulb. Although Drosnin's book is based on a paper published by Doron Witzum, Eliyahu Rips and Yoav Rosenberg, it is far more ambitious in its claims, and has attracted a great deal of criticism. The main cause of concern is that the text being studied is enormous: in a large enough text, it is hardly surprising that by varying both the starting place and the size of the jump, sensible phrases can be made to appear.

Brendan McKay at the Australian National University tried to demonstrate the weakness of Drosnin's approach by searching for EDLSs in Moby Dick, and discovered thirteen statements pertaining to assassinations of famous people, including Trotsky, Gandhi and Robet Kennedy. Furthermore, Hebrew texts are bound to be particularly rich in EDLSs, because they are largely devoid of vowels. This means that interpreters can insert vowels as they see fit, which makes it easier to extract predictions.

[Provoker]

...because I think I've found one.
Hello BT:
The fact that there are thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations, means that virtually all Christians believe in a coded bible, for which only their denomination has the key...LOL
However, if one reads the bible with the goal of understanding the chronological story which runs with continuity from beginning to end, he may realize that the only key required is to concentrate on the context, and not on doctrinally selected, individual, verses.
What do you think?

[thebluetriangle]

Hi swos and Provoker,

Thanks for your replies.

swos, I have no idea whether the ELS bible codes are real or not. However, the code I have discovered is of a completely different type and therefore has to be treated as a completely different entity. I have Simon Singh's book on my shelf and his position on codes is very clear. He virtually discounts the possibility of such an entity in principle. Such people tend to be selective about the kind of evidence they will even consider, i.e., they are biased.

Provoker, I am not selecting verses on the basis of doctrine, but on the basis of evidence of a cyphertext. We are talking about completely different things. You can believe what you like about the bible, but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether there is a cyphertext (although the cyphertext, if real, may have a bearing on the surface words, for instance it may support or augment them in some way). There either is a cyphertext or there isn't one. If there is one it was either put there by the conscious intent of the writers and translators, or it was put there by a higher power, working through the unconscious minds of those people.

I think I can prove

a) that there is a cyphertext, and
b) that it could not have been laid down by the conscious intent of the writers.

Therefore I submit that I have evidence of the existence of a higher power.

Is that of interest to anyone?

In Christ,

BT

[studyhound]

Brendan McKay at the Australian National University tried to demonstrate the weakness of Drosnin's approach by searching for EDLSs in Moby Dick, and discovered thirteen statements pertaining to assassinations of famous people, including Trotsky, Gandhi and Robet Kennedy. Furthermore, Hebrew texts are bound to be particularly rich in EDLSs, because they are largely devoid of vowels. This means that interpreters can insert vowels as they see fit, which makes it easier to extract predictions.

This can be seen here (http://cs.anu.edu.au/%7Ebdm/dilugim/moby.html)
Also IIRC there were some Jews who "found" that Jesus was the deceiver, and Jeus was a false prophet.

Any large work of literature you can find word codes in them.

:sh:

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Studyhound,

The equidistant letter sequence (ELS) code found by Rips is based on the ability to manipulate the text of the Torah, a technique which produces an astronomical number of possible letter combinations. That is the basis on which McKay criticises that code. The code of which I speak is based on the numeration of words and on textual features within the bible, elements that cannot be altered. Thus it is frozen in place and far more amenable to study.

When it is studied for any length of time, two things quickly become obvious

1. Distinct patterns of numbers can be seen.

Any text can be converted into numbers, which can be scoured for pseudo-codes. However, these numbers, being random, are not organised into larger patterns. Genuinely encoded numbers are.

2. The cyphertext is meaningfully related to the plaintext.

One would not expect the literal meaning of words and phrases to be reflected in their numerical values. Any such information should be effectively scrambled by the numeration process, a fact that makes cryptography possible. Nevertheless, I have found many examples of encoded numbers that consciously reflect the meaning of the words within which the numbers inhere, or beside which the numbers are found.

These two phenomena have no natural explanation and, if genuine, can only be the result of intelligent design. In fact, they appear to be a communication from an intelligence that worked through the unconscious minds of those who penned the Bible, an intelligence that wishes to make itself known to us.

Do we look a gift horse in the mouth?

In Christ,

BT

[Provoker]

Hello bt:
The point of my response was only to suggest that Christianity may be so concerned with fining hidden meanings in scripture, that they never consider the plain and simple story told by scripture.
I literally know dozens of people who claim that the Holy Spirit has given them the key to interpreting scripture, but none of them agree completely on what scripture means, so I am inclined to use an interpretation method which has not yet been tried...namely, reading the bible with the intention of recognizing the obvious story which runs with continuity, completely through the bible.
I would be inclined to start a thread entitled; Does anyone here believe in a bible which is not in code, but is clearly and completely revealed in the story it tells?
However, I live to be convinced of truth I do not currently possess, so convince away...LOL

[James Peter]

Hi Studyhound,

The equidistant letter sequence (ELS) code found by Rips is based on the ability to manipulate the text of the Torah, a technique which produces an astronomical number of possible letter combinations. That is the basis on which McKay criticises that code. The code of which I speak is based on the numeration of words and on textual features within the bible, elements that cannot be altered. Thus it is frozen in place and far more amenable to study.

When it is studied for any length of time, two things quickly become obvious

1. Distinct patterns of numbers can be seen.

Any text can be converted into numbers, which can be scoured for pseudo-codes. However, these numbers, being random, are not organised into larger patterns. Genuinely encoded numbers are.

2. The cyphertext is meaningfully related to the plaintext.

One would not expect the literal meaning of words and phrases to be reflected in their numerical values. Any such information should be effectively scrambled by the numeration process, a fact that makes cryptography possible. Nevertheless, I have found many examples of encoded numbers that consciously reflect the meaning of the words within which the numbers inhere, or beside which the numbers are found.

These two phenomena have no natural explanation and, if genuine, can only be the result of intelligent design. In fact, they appear to be a communication from an intelligence that worked through the unconscious minds of those who penned the Bible, an intelligence that wishes to make itself known to us.

Do we look a gift horse in the mouth?

In Christ,

BT


Except whilst there is some link between the cyphertext and the main text the connections don't seem strong enough and/or the placement is too random to suggest more than coincidence to me still. Its going to take something much more obvious and, well, useful to convince me. And the existance of a cyphertext wouldn't prove divine inspiration anyway, all it proves is some superhuman entity was involved (Spirits, Demons, gods...)

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Provoker and James Peter,

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

James Peter, I completely agree with your points. See below for more convincing information. Regarding that authorship of the code, I have reason to believe the author was Jesus Christ.

Provoker, the Bible seems to me to be like an onion, with layer upon layer of meaning. That's one of the reasons it is regarded as the finest work of literature in the world, in addition to being the Word of God. The code I would now like to properly introduce is the deepest layer of all, an insight into the very Mind of God.

The code is revealed by the numeration of biblical verses and is therefore extremely sensitive to textual variations. Because of this, only one version of the Bible can be the vehicle for the code. This is the NIV Bible, the most popular modern English Bible translation (hence an obvious choice).

I'd like to start by showing you the encoding of several numerical signatures within the NIV. First note that two keys are required to unlock the code.

The first key is based on the position of each letter in the alphabet:
A to I = 1 to 9. J to R = 10 to 18. S to Z = 19 to 26

The second key is identical to the Hebrew system of numeration:
A to I = 1 to 9. J to R = 10 to 90. S to Z = 100 to 800

Important: the numbers are revealed by decoding verses using the first key. They then take on meaning (usually a single word or name) by application of the second key. This input/output pattern is found throughout the NIV.


Example 1

The first twelve words of the NIV are numerated below:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the.." = 515
Jesus = 515

Numerating the next twelve words we obtain

"earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the.." = 654
Word = 654

If we bisect this second group, we obtain two groups of six words

"earth was formless and empty, darkness.." = 391
Yehoshua (Jesus in Hebrew) = 391

"was over the surface of the.." = 263
Messiah = 263

So we have numbers representing the words Jesus, Word, Messiah and Yehoshua all encoded together within the first 24 words of the Bible.


Example 2

I stated that the cyphertext consciously reflects the plaintext words. This is true of the above encodings within the prologue of Genesis, where the signature of the Creator is encoded within the words describing the Creation. Here is an even more clear example, within Rev 13:18

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." = 1151
Beelzebub = 1151

"let him calculate the number of the beast," = 352
Satan = 352

"for it is man's number" = 216 = 6 x 6 x 6


Example 3

The final example constitutes an authenticating 'seal' on the NIV code, and is a good example of a meaningful pattern. It involves the Bible's alpha and omega verses and the signatory is the alpha and omega himself, who has signed his name in triplicate.

Gen 1:1-2
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the.." = 515
Jesus = 515

Rev 22:21 (last 9 words)
"of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen" = 391
Yehoshua (Jesus in Hebrew) = 391

Gen 1:1
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." = 430

Rev 22:21
"The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen" = 458

430 + 458 = 888

Ihsous (Jesus in Greek) = 888


Your comments would be most welcome.

In Christ,

BT

[James Peter]

Your comments would be most welcome.


The problem with working from the NIV is that it isn't an especially accurate translation. Could God layer a code in it? Theoretically, sure. Would he layer a code in english in the NIV but not in other texts? I wouldn't say it was likely.

Now a few comments on your specific examples...

Ex.1: The chief problem (beyond the fact that it involves the exact wording of the NIV being required) is that the divisions do not occur in any especially significant place - if each clause contained a word I'd be more convinced.

Ex.2: Of course Nero's full name also is '666' which is a more obvious solution. Also of relevance is that the beast isn't Satan - it simply belongs to Satan and thats very obvious from the text itself. What benefit does such a cyphertext have?

Ex.3: Why the last 9 words? (Etc) Once again the division seems to be arbitary.

Overall comment:

With the many 'significant' numbers and the ability to just cut up texts however you want its not surprising that you can come up with examples like this. I'm still firmly in the camp of the cynics.

[Krusader]

I believe in the I.B.C. (Independent Baptist Code), which is this: every word actually means what it says.

[thebluetriangle]

James Peter,

Let me answer your questions as they come up.

Ex.1: The chief problem (beyond the fact that it involves the exact wording of the NIV being required) is that the divisions do not occur in any especially significant place - if each clause contained a word I'd be more convinced.

I submit that the divisions are indeed significant, because they encode the numbers 6 and 12. In fact, for the sake of simplicity I didn't show you the entire encoding. The first 24 word string of the NIV can be cut into four substrings of 6 words each. The ordinal value of these strings are, in order

252, 263, 391, 263

Messiah = 263
Yehoshua (Heb.) = 391

Summing strings 1 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 4, we obtain

515, 654, 654

Jesus = 515
Word = 654

There is a concentration of numbers here with a single theme, that of Jesus Christ. This relates to the surface theme of Creation. The number 12 is also meaningfully associated with Jesus. Only one number requires to be explained, 252. This is the number of units forming the outline of a geometric figue known as a fractal snowflake (related to the Koch Snowflake). This figure can be created from discrete units in the same way a triangle can be created from pool balls at the start of a game. Two further numbers define this figure: an outer ring of 906 units and the entire figure, with 1279 units. 906 is the ordinal values of the first 18 (3 x 6) words, which of course can be trisected to give the numbers I show above. 1279 is the ordinal value of Genesis 1:2.

This is associated with further numerical values.

The Almighty God = 1279
Ihsous + Yehoshua = 1279
Jesus + Yehoshua = 906 (also the ordinal value of 1st 18 words Genesis)

The difference between 1279 and 906 defines an inner snowflake of 373 units

Logos (Word in Greek) = 373

These snowflakes (like real snowflakes) are six-sided, which I believe the sixness of the encoded numbers references. They are also fractals, reflecting that fact that the universe (creation) itself is fractal (something discovered only in the 1970's)

Notice how the numerical values for Jesus in English Greek and Hebrew, the two principal biblical languages and the language of the NIV, keep appearing. This is not coincidence!

The regularity of theme, regularity of word-string length (all are 6 or 12 word strings), vastly significant location (the Bible's opening words!) and self-reflective nature of the encodings are, I believe, significant mitigating factors against a chance hypothesis.


Ex.2: Of course Nero's full name also is '666' which is a more obvious solution. Also of relevance is that the beast isn't Satan - it simply belongs to Satan and thats very obvious from the text itself. What benefit does such a cyphertext have?

There may be many solutions to the 666 enigma, but surely you can see the self-reflective nature of these encodings. There is no known mechanism by which the cyphertext could reflect the plaintext in this way!

I can tell you one benefit right away. We now have solid, statistically improbable evidence that the translators of the NIV were influenced in some way as they wrote these words! It is simply unreasonable to maintain that this is coincidence. It is more reasonable to accept that some kind of encoding process is at work here, the actions of an unknown intelligence.

Ex.3: Why the last 9 words? (Etc) Once again the division seems to be arbitary.

I could hypothesis that the encoder had to work within certain textual limitations. One possible answer is that what seems to be an irregularity may be part of a larger pattern, a more extensive snowflake. For instance, in biblical numerics, the number 9 represents endings, judgment and finality. What more appropriate number, then to be associated with the last encoding in the NIV Bible?

In Christ,

BT

[Paul]

As the bible was divinely crafted, I have no doubt there are hidden, deep, complex, subtle, intricate, and wondrous, and potentially infinite layers of meaning and wonder to it.

If what the bible code researchers say is at all true, then it is for certain only the tip of an infinite iceberg. If it isn't true, the iceberg is still there.

No human can fully comprehend all the divine wisdom that went into the bible. It is not the work of mere human hands. Just as in poetry there is "rhyme and reason" besides the meaning considered as prose, so also in the bible there is sure to layers of meaning in addition to the meaning considered as prose/poetry.

Something like the bible code can be a hobby, but it shouldn't be an obsession. The critical stuff is not hidden in any code.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Paul,

You say

"Something like the bible code can be a hobby, but it shouldn't be an obsession. The critical stuff is not hidden in any code."

With respect, the critical stuff may well be hidden in code! If it is a communication from God then it is of vast importance in any case!

At the very least it can show an increasingly secularised world, where church attendances decrease, church influence diminishes, greed and despair grow in equal measure, and religious belief is regarded as a mild form of psychopathology by academics, that our Creator is really there, winking at us through our dark glass.

In Christ,

BT

[James Peter]

At the very least it can show an increasingly secularised world, where church attendances decrease, church influence diminishes, greed and despair grow in equal measure, and religious belief is regarded as a mild form of psychopathology by academics, that our Creator is really there, winking at us through our dark glass.


I hope that we aren't reduced to such methods to demonstrate that our God lives. Surely he should be apparent to any who look at our communities? Love should encompass us and reach out to the lost, the rejected and the broken. The Charismata should challenge disbelief. Christ should be obvious in our lives, he shouldn't need to be found only hidden away in an intellectually questionable code...

[Krusader]

I hope that we aren't reduced to such methods to demonstrate that our God lives. Surely he should be apparent to any who look at our communities? Love should encompass us and reach out to the lost, the rejected and the broken. The Charismata should challenge disbelief. Christ should be obvious in our lives, he shouldn't need to be found only hidden away in an intellectually questionable code...

To which I say, "Amen."

[roddmann]

I met Chuck Missler when he was just leaving Western Digital Corporation as CEO. He was starting an investment banking business with the ex-treasurer of WDC and an ex-insurance salesman. Chuck was connected with Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and spoke alot about prophecy, codes, numerology and fun "coincidences" in the Bible. He was gifted and understood well Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

He was also one of the Chicken Littles in the Y2K scam and attracted $ as he warned everyone of impending doom.

Today I think he is broke and living somewhere in Idaho. Doubt very much anyone is buying his snake oil anymore, but I still hear his voice from time-to-time on Christian radio.

He cheated some folks and misled many. Which left me with zero enthusiasm for "decoding the Bible."

Give me the simple Gospel and I am filled to overflowing.

[Sparko]

Bluetriangle,

assuming your code is real, the exactly what do those "numbers" mean?

I can make up a code of my own, assigning different valued to letters of the alphabet and come up with completely different numbers. So why are yours special? What is the significance of it?

sounds like you just decided to assign numbers to letters and add in the numbers of chapters and verses and came up with numbers for various names. So what?

I could do that with any book.

[thebluetriangle]

James Peter and Crusader,

"I hope that we aren't reduced to such methods to demonstrate that our God lives. Surely he should be apparent to any who look at our communities? Love should encompass us and reach out to the lost, the rejected and the broken. The Charismata should challenge disbelief. Christ should be obvious in our lives, he shouldn't need to be found only hidden away in an intellectually questionable code..."

God is creative and can think of any number of methods to get our attention. And he does need to get our attention. Have you looked at the newspapers recently? Love does not encompass us. We do not reach out to the lost. Many people are rejected and broken. Disbelief is indeed widespread and Christ is not obvious in the lives of most, including many Christians. The Christian voice and Christian good works are virtually drowned out among the clamour of an increasingly angry, desparate, frightened, confused, paranoid and deluded world. A world on the brink of environmental armageddon. A world where five million are in the grip of economic slavery so that one billion can live in relative comfort. God isn't "only hidden away" in a code: he is everywhere. But we still can't find him. Now I am showing one tiny aspect of him to you, but you simply look away.

Roddman,

"I met Chuck Missler when he was just leaving Western Digital Corporation as CEO. He was starting an investment banking business with the ex-treasurer of WDC and an ex-insurance salesman. Chuck was connected with Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and spoke alot about prophecy, codes, numerology and fun "coincidences" in the Bible. He was gifted and understood well Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

He was also one of the Chicken Littles in the Y2K scam and attracted $ as he warned everyone of impending doom.

Today I think he is broke and living somewhere in Idaho. Doubt very much anyone is buying his snake oil anymore, but I still hear his voice from time-to-time on Christian radio.

He cheated some folks and misled many. Which left me with zero enthusiasm for "decoding the Bible."

Give me the simple Gospel and I am filled to overflowing."

What does any of this have to do with whether the code is real or not? And as for the gospel, it may well fill some to overflowing, but it leaves others cold, not least because they believe it to be the deluded rantings of provincial first century Jews, rather than a work inspired by God. The code is a numerical signature or watermark, authenticating the entire Bible.

In Christ,

BT

[James Peter]

God is creative and can think of any number of methods to get our attention. And he does need to get our attention. Have you looked at the newspapers recently? Love does not encompass us. We do not reach out to the lost. Many people are rejected and broken. Disbelief is indeed widespread and Christ is not obvious in the lives of most, including many Christians. The Christian voice and Christian good works are virtually drowned out among the clamour of an increasingly angry, desparate, frightened, confused, paranoid and deluded world. A world on the brink of environmental armageddon. A world where five million are in the grip of economic slavery so that one billion can live in relative comfort. God isn't "only hidden away" in a code: he is everywhere. But we still can't find him. Now I am showing one tiny aspect of him to you, but you simply look away.



I'm not looking away, I'm still waiting to be convinced that this is more than a coincidence and also that the idea has some value in it. Surely the cyphertext must have 'rules' which deterine where and how messages are encoded because otherwise I'm sure I could find very subversive messages through it (I just don't have the time to find an example that works). I remain convinced that the best way to find 'hidden' meaning in the text is to study the texts themselves. To look at their history, the situations in which different segments were written and for what purpose they were originally written. To compare them to contemporary ideas to be able to understand the texts as those who first heard them did. Once thats done I'd suggest looking at allegorical meanings. Then, if that is exhausted, perhaps look at these codes. If these 'codes' convince you that God exists then so be it, but I don't need them for that or to demonstrate that God lives.

Certainly for centuries people claiming to be Christians have produced terrible fruit. Today that continues. Where love should be found hate dwells. What does that mean? That most of christianity has lost its way? Probably. The solution is to say as James did: "You show me your faith without deeds and I'll show you my faith by my deeds."

[thebluetriangle]

Sparko,

"Bluetriangle,

assuming your code is real, the exactly what do those "numbers" mean?

I can make up a code of my own, assigning different valued to letters of the alphabet and come up with completely different numbers. So why are yours special? What is the significance of it?

sounds like you just decided to assign numbers to letters and add in the numbers of chapters and verses and came up with numbers for various names. So what?

I could do that with any book."


You're right, one could devise ones own code and apply it to the NIV. But that would mean nothing. The significance of the systems of alphabetic numeration I use are that they are precisely the same systems as used in the Kabbablah, the mystical strain of Judaism, which kabbalists say reveal a hidden structure within the Hebrew language and the Torah and which they call gematria.

In other words there is a correspondance between Hebrew gematria and English gematria. The reason I believe I have found a real code, the result of intelligent design, is because the numbers I found have several features that mitigate against a chance hypothesis.

1. They are found within significant Biblical passages, not in obscure places.

2. They consciously reflect the meaning of the passage.

3. They are patterned (for instance the six pattern I show above).

4. They are in confluence with each other and with numbers from other sources, eg chapter and verse numbers.

5. They are consciously aligned with the beginnings of verses, chapters and, in the case of the Genesis encodings, the entire Bible.

How significant would the string of numbers I found have been if they began at the second word of Genesis rather than the first? Or the third or fourth word? I'll tell you: none. They begin at the beginning.

6. The Genesis encodings are decoded by means of two systems, used in the same way each time. In no case is this reversed, or is only one system required. It's the same procedure every time, suggesting, once again, intelligent design.

7. Different words can share the same gematria, but with large numbers, say 515 (= Jesus), this is rare. When a set of numbers can all be related through gematria with words having a common theme, we immediately suspect that we have correctly decoded them. We have found the pattern.

Here is another pattern. Using the two systems of gematria I outline in a previous posting, which I call the absolute value (a) and the ordinal value (o)

God (a) = 71
God (o) = 26

Lets look at the first three times the word 'God' is mentioned in the NIV Bible.

'God' is the fourth word in the NIV, the thirtieth word in the NIV and the thirty-seventh word in the NIV.

4 + 30 + 37 = 71 = God (o)

'God' is the fourth word in the NIV Gen 1:1, the twentieth word in Gen 1:2 and the second word in Geness 1:3

4 + 20 + 2 = 26 = God (o)

Do you see the pattern? Let me also say that there is no such pattern with the first two mentions of God or the first four, only with the first three. This is because three represents the Trinity and is the obvious number to associate with God in this way. We are seeing a confluence of related ideas. This is intelligent design.

If I have correctly decoded the numbers then what they amount to is a watermark on the Bible, or if you like, an authenticating signature. Jesus has personally signed the NIV Bible. That is the first thing I can say about what the numbers mean. I think they mean a lot more than that, but even if they did not, this is evidence Christians can use to convince the hard-headed sceptic of rational persuasion, who has no belief in the existence of God. It is a frozen miracle, which, like other miracles, is a sign from on high, a message of reassurance that God is really with us.

In Christ,

BT

[James Peter]

Jesus has personally signed the NIV Bible.

Which means that we should use the NIV even when it gives meanings that are clearly different to what the greek says?

If you can convince a "hard-headed sceptic" to trust that the NIV is the 'Word of God' based upon this then well, congratulations. Personally I don't think its advisable to advocate that any specific english translation 'has God's seal on it' if that translation is known to contain errors. Surely the errors outweight the 'code'.

[Sparko]

Sparko,

"Bluetriangle,

assuming your code is real, the exactly what do those "numbers" mean?

I can make up a code of my own, assigning different valued to letters of the alphabet and come up with completely different numbers. So why are yours special? What is the significance of it?

sounds like you just decided to assign numbers to letters and add in the numbers of chapters and verses and came up with numbers for various names. So what?

I could do that with any book."


You're right, one could devise ones own code and apply it to the NIV. But that would mean nothing. The significance of the systems of alphabetic numeration I use are that they are precisely the same systems as used in the Kabbablah, the mystical strain of Judaism, which kabbalists say reveal a hidden structure within the Hebrew language and the Torah and which they call gematria.

In other words there is a correspondance between Hebrew gematria and English gematria. The reason I believe I have found a real code, the result of intelligent design, is because the numbers I found have several features that mitigate against a chance hypothesis.

1. They are found within significant Biblical passages, not in obscure places.

2. They consciously reflect the meaning of the passage.

3. They are patterned (for instance the six pattern I show above).

4. They are in confluence with each other and with numbers from other sources, eg chapter and verse numbers.

5. They are consciously aligned with the beginnings of verses, chapters and, in the case of the Genesis encodings, the entire Bible.

How significant would the string of numbers I found have been if they began at the second word of Genesis rather than the first? Or the third or fourth word? I'll tell you: none. They begin at the beginning.

6. The Genesis encodings are decoded by means of two systems, used in the same way each time. In no case is this reversed, or is only one system required. It's the same procedure every time, suggesting, once again, intelligent design.

7. Different words can share the same gematria, but with large numbers, say 515 (= Jesus), this is rare. When a set of numbers can all be related through gematria with words having a common theme, we immediately suspect that we have correctly decoded them. We have found the pattern.

Here is another pattern. Using the two systems of gematria I outline in a previous posting, which I call the absolute value (a) and the ordinal value (o)

God (a) = 71
God (o) = 26

Lets look at the first three times the word 'God' is mentioned in the NIV Bible.

'God' is the fourth word in the NIV, the thirtieth word in the NIV and the thirty-seventh word in the NIV.

4 + 30 + 37 = 71 = God (o)

'God' is the fourth word in the NIV Gen 1:1, the twentieth word in Gen 1:2 and the second word in Geness 1:3

4 + 20 + 2 = 26 = God (o)

Do you see the pattern? Let me also say that there is no such pattern with the first two mentions of God or the first four, only with the first three. This is because three represents the Trinity and is the obvious number to associate with God in this way. We are seeing a confluence of related ideas. This is intelligent design.

If I have correctly decoded the numbers then what they amount to is a watermark on the Bible, or if you like, an authenticating signature. Jesus has personally signed the NIV Bible. That is the first thing I can say about what the numbers mean. I think they mean a lot more than that, but even if they did not, this is evidence Christians can use to convince the hard-headed sceptic of rational persuasion, who has no belief in the existence of God. It is a frozen miracle, which, like other miracles, is a sign from on high, a message of reassurance that God is really with us.

In Christ,

BT

Well the way I see it is you first created a numbering system, then you look up the number for a person, say "Jesus", then you search around to find just the right combination of verses that add up to that number. To me that is just forcing the issue. Especially since the verse numbers were added later and sometimes don't even correspond to the same numbers in every translation, and the order of the books themselves has changed in the Old Testament. The Jews had a complete different order of books.

In a book as large as the bible, there will always be so many available chapter verse combinations available that a diligent searcher can "prove" any numeric code for a word like "Jesus" or "Savior" or "Christ", etc, if they wanted to. You chose to use passages that support Jesus was Immanuel, but what if someone found a combination of chapter/verses that added up to the same number, but were referring to Satan? Would that prove that Jesus was Satan?

[roddmann]

James Peter and Crusader,

"I hope that we aren't reduced to such methods to demonstrate that our God lives. Surely he should be apparent to any who look at our communities? Love should encompass us and reach out to the lost, the rejected and the broken. The Charismata should challenge disbelief. Christ should be obvious in our lives, he shouldn't need to be found only hidden away in an intellectually questionable code..."

God is creative and can think of any number of methods to get our attention. And he does need to get our attention. Have you looked at the newspapers recently? Love does not encompass us. We do not reach out to the lost. Many people are rejected and broken. Disbelief is indeed widespread and Christ is not obvious in the lives of most, including many Christians. The Christian voice and Christian good works are virtually drowned out among the clamour of an increasingly angry, desparate, frightened, confused, paranoid and deluded world. A world on the brink of environmental armageddon. A world where five million are in the grip of economic slavery so that one billion can live in relative comfort. God isn't "only hidden away" in a code: he is everywhere. But we still can't find him. Now I am showing one tiny aspect of him to you, but you simply look away.

Roddman,

"I met Chuck Missler when he was just leaving Western Digital Corporation as CEO. He was starting an investment banking business with the ex-treasurer of WDC and an ex-insurance salesman. Chuck was connected with Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and spoke alot about prophecy, codes, numerology and fun "coincidences" in the Bible. He was gifted and understood well Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.

He was also one of the Chicken Littles in the Y2K scam and attracted $ as he warned everyone of impending doom.

Today I think he is broke and living somewhere in Idaho. Doubt very much anyone is buying his snake oil anymore, but I still hear his voice from time-to-time on Christian radio.

He cheated some folks and misled many. Which left me with zero enthusiasm for "decoding the Bible."

Give me the simple Gospel and I am filled to overflowing."

What does any of this have to do with whether the code is real or not? And as for the gospel, it may well fill some to overflowing, but it leaves others cold, not least because they believe it to be the deluded rantings of provincial first century Jews, rather than a work inspired by God. The code is a numerical signature or watermark, authenticating the entire Bible.

In Christ,

BT

Cracking the Code may leave you with the impression that you're possibly smarter than the average person, but it doesn't add one scintilla to the message of the Bible. The theme is Jesus, Him crucified and resurrected and salvation through Him. The path you're on is trivial pursuit and frankly an unfortunate distraction.

But what the hey! Knock yourself out, certainly some will be impressed with this "prowess."

[thebluetriangle]

Peter James,

"I'm not looking away, I'm still waiting to be convinced that this is more than a coincidence and also that the idea has some value in it. Surely the cyphertext must have 'rules' which deterine where and how messages are encoded because otherwise I'm sure I could find very subversive messages through it (I just don't have the time to find an example that works). I remain convinced that the best way to find 'hidden' meaning in the text is to study the texts themselves. To look at their history, the situations in which different segments were written and for what purpose they were originally written. To compare them to contemporary ideas to be able to understand the texts as those who first heard them did. Once thats done I'd suggest looking at allegorical meanings. Then, if that is exhausted, perhaps look at these codes. If these 'codes' convince you that God exists then so be it, but I don't need them for that or to demonstrate that God lives.""

If you want to look for counterexamples you're welcome. You may even find some, but they won't be as patterned as the real codes and they won't reflect the theme of the text. I've done the opposite: looked for gematria for Jesus etc in my wife's travel books. I occasionally found them too, but they were never organised in any way. It's not just the existence of the numbers that is extraordinary, it's their concentration in relevant passages, the way they are organised, the procedure by which they are meant to be decoded and their confluence with numbers from other sources, such as chapter and verse numbers.

I showed an example above of two encodings of the gematria of 'God' in Gen 1:1-3. Here is another encoding (I'm hoping the weight of evidence convinces you!).

Gen. 1:1, Ist 18 words (o) = 906
Jesus + Yehoshua (a) = 906

Gen. 1:2, Ist 18 words (o) = 699
Lord Jesus (a) = 699

Gen. 1:3, Ist 18 words (o) = 912
The Lord Jesus (a) = 912

Again we have a pattern involving the number best representing the Trinity, 3, and, this time, 18.

There are no rules in the cyphertext, nor is there any reason why there should be rules (anyway, if they are encoded, you'd have know the rules first to find them - catch 22!). I had to discover them as I went along, taking many wrong turns along the way. The only clues as to where the encodings lie are the words of the surface text: the code is concentrated in theologically-significant passages. In fact there is a degree of predictability here, the mark of a useful scientific theory (although this is not a thoery, merely a set of discoveries), because the encoded numbers are meaningfully related to the text. For instance I predicted that Rev 13:18 would be encoded with demonic numbers, based on the theme, and concentrated my efforts there.

What is so wonderful about the code is that it doesn't change the literal meaning of the Bible's words. It's at a completely different level. However, a full understanding of the Bible and its message for humankind will have to include any encoded numbers, so they will have an effect on, for example, textual criticism.

In Christ,

BT

[Sparko]

The whole bible code thing smacks of numerology and new age nonsense to me anyway. Wasting your time finding secret messages and codes is, in my opinion, a good way for Satan to sidetrack your Christian walk into some irrelevant obsession and thereby render you useless to the kingdom. If you spend all your time looking for coded messages and meaning, and trying to get others to do the same, then you are wasting your time and not spreading the gospel or even learning about God's word and what Jesus taught. You are obsessed with minutae.

Even if true, the codes will not convince anyone that the bible is true that does not already believe it. They will just dismiss it as another crackpot idea (which it is IMHO). So the usefulness of such a pursuit is pretty much nil.

[roddmann]

The whole bible code thing smacks of numerology and new age nonsense to me anyway. Wasting your time finding secret messages and codes is, in my opinion, a good way for Satan to sidetrack your Christian walk into some irrelevant obsession and thereby render you useless to the kingdom. If you spend all your time looking for coded messages and meaning, and trying to get others to do the same, then you are wasting your time and not spreading the gospel or even learning about God's word and what Jesus taught. You are obsessed with minutae.

Even if true, the codes will not convince anyone that the bible is true that does not already believe it. They will just dismiss it as another crackpot idea (which it is IMHO). So the usefulness of such a pursuit is pretty much nil.

Sparko - You have my wholehearted agreement. You are right on target.

[Krusader]

James Peter and Crusader,


What does any of this have to do with whether the code is real or not? And as for the gospel, it may well fill some to overflowing, but it leaves others cold, not least because they believe it to be the deluded rantings of provincial first century Jews, rather than a work inspired by God. The code is a numerical signature or watermark, authenticating the entire Bible.

In Christ,

BT

Sorry, but to the unregenerated heart, the Bible will always seem to be the "deluded rantings of provincial first century Jews, rather than a work inspired by God." It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the soul of sin and regenerate the spirit, that man might know and love God and His Word.

[roddmann]

Sorry, but to the unregenerated heart, the Bible will always seem to be the "deluded rantings of provincial first century Jews, rather than a work inspired by God." It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the soul of sin and regenerate the spirit, that man might know and love God and His Word.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16

"...the unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned..."

"...what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor. 2:9). The Christian manual of operation is unique because it reveals "the things of the Spirit of God"—things from God that man can't find out on his own, things that do not fit our worldview, our paradigm (e.g. science)...

But that is okay with me because Jesus says that if they persecuted Him, they will persecute us as well.

"Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also (John 15:20)."

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you (Matthew 5:10-12)."

[thebluetriangle]

James Peter,

Which means that we should use the NIV even when it gives meanings that are clearly different to what the greek says?

It means we can trust the Bible. There are also codes in the Masoretic Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament.

If you can convince a "hard-headed sceptic" to trust that the NIV is the 'Word of God' based upon this then well, congratulations. Personally I don't think its advisable to advocate that any specific english translation 'has God's seal on it' if that translation is known to contain errors. Surely the errors outweight the 'code'.

Why would the errors "outweigh" the code? All versions of the Bible, insofar as they are the work of man, are imperfect. Insofar as they are the work of God they are inspired. Can't we just leave the question about the relative merits of each version open? We are looking gift horses in the mouth again.

I am advocating the NIV because it has a code, although I also happen to think it is a particularly beautiful translation, if not the most accurate.

In Christ,

BT

[Warcraft3]

Why worry about reading the actual scripture when we can focus on things that are hidden in "mathematical" codes?

Bible codes....Bible wheels....

Whats next?

Maybe if we record the scripture and play it backwards we can find some messages...

Or we could take a picture of the scripture and see if there are any "hidden" messages that appear if we view the photo out of focus....

So many possibilities, so little time.

Or lets just combine various translations of the scripture and put any words, pictures, mathematical values, geometrical shapes, etc that have any remote relationship to each other into a big computer program that performs several random operations on the information looking for patterns.

Who knows what we could find?

A prediction of Hitler.....

The name "George Bush"....

The word "Coca Cola"...

A picture of a B-52......

Maybe....just maybe..... we will even find a reference to the "Steadele Fallacy"....

The patterns are all there...just waiting to be found by some gifted, inspired, yet 'humble' individual who can reveal to the world this life changing hidden message...


:ahem:

[Krusader]

1 Corinthians 2:14-16

"...the unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned..."

"...what no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him" (1 Cor. 2:9). The Christian manual of operation is unique because it reveals "the things of the Spirit of God"—things from God that man can't find out on his own, things that do not fit our worldview, our paradigm (e.g. science)...

But that is okay with me because Jesus says that if they persecuted Him, they will persecute us as well.

"Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also (John 15:20)."

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you (Matthew 5:10-12)."

And, if you claim to be persecuted, remember it must be for the Lord Jesus, and not some New Age system of Biblical interpretation. You might as well go to the Kabala as to this silly Bible code system. John is right, it's a glorified numerology and another trick of the enemy to keep us away from the Word of Life.

[thebluetriangle]

Sparko,

Well the way I see it is you first created a numbering system, then you look up the number for a person, say "Jesus", then you search around to find just the right combination of verses that add up to that number. To me that is just forcing the issue. Especially since the verse numbers were added later and sometimes don't even correspond to the same numbers in every translation, and the order of the books themselves has changed in the Old Testament. The Jews had a complete different order of books.

I didn't create a numbering system. The numbering system is a faithful translation of two systems of Hebrew alphabetic numeration into English. I certainly did search, but I found encoded numbers in remarkable places! As for the book order, the code relates to the modern Christian Bible, not the original Hebrew Bible. It was encoded in the 1970s, when the NIV was created.

In a book as large as the bible, there will always be so many available chapter verse combinations available that a diligent searcher can "prove" any numeric code for a word like "Jesus" or "Savior" or "Christ", etc, if they wanted to. You chose to use passages that support Jesus was Immanuel, but what if someone found a combination of chapter/verses that added up to the same number, but were referring to Satan? Would that prove that Jesus was Satan?

I didn't "choose" the passages equating Jesus with Immanuel. There are only three: not a lot to choose from there! I simply summed the chapter and verse numbers to obtain a remarkable numerical link, supporting the claim in Matthew that Jesus is Immanuel. If the numbers did not add up, there is nothing I could have done about it, other than writing my own bible with my own chapter and verse divisions.

If the numbers had summed to 352, 448, 661, 1151, 443 or 883 (all related to the stanic), and if these numbers were also found where the text refers to Jesus or the Creation, etc, I would have had to consider the possibility that Jesus is Satan. But they don't!

In Christ,

Bill

[Warcraft3]

Sparko,

Well the way I see it is you first created a numbering system, then you look up the number for a person, say "Jesus", then you search around to find just the right combination of verses that add up to that number. To me that is just forcing the issue. Especially since the verse numbers were added later and sometimes don't even correspond to the same numbers in every translation, and the order of the books themselves has changed in the Old Testament. The Jews had a complete different order of books.

I didn't create a numbering system. The numbering system is a faithful translation of two systems of Hebrew alphabetic numeration into English. I certainly did search, but I found encoded numbers in remarkable places! As for the book order, the code relates to the modern Christian Bible, not the original Hebrew Bible. It was encoded in the 1970s, when the NIV was created.

In a book as large as the bible, there will always be so many available chapter verse combinations available that a diligent searcher can "prove" any numeric code for a word like "Jesus" or "Savior" or "Christ", etc, if they wanted to. You chose to use passages that support Jesus was Immanuel, but what if someone found a combination of chapter/verses that added up to the same number, but were referring to Satan? Would that prove that Jesus was Satan?

I didn't "choose" the passages equating Jesus with Immanuel. There are only three: not a lot to choose from there! I simply summed the chapter and verse numbers to obtain a remarkable numerical link, supporting the claim in Matthew that Jesus is Immanuel. If the numbers did not add up, there is nothing I could have done about it, other than writing my own bible with my own chapter and verse divisions.

If the numbers had summed to 352, 448, 661, 1151, 443 or 883 (all related to the stanic), and if these numbers were also found where the text refers to Jesus or the Creation, etc, I would have had to consider the possibility that Jesus is Satan. But they don't!

In Christ,

Bill


What happens if you add the numbers using a BASE 7 numbering system instead of BASE 10?

We all know that 7 is much more Godly than 10.......

[roddmann]

Hello bt:
The point of my response was only to suggest that Christianity may be so concerned with fining hidden meanings in scripture, that they never consider the plain and simple story told by scripture.
I literally know dozens of people who claim that the Holy Spirit has given them the key to interpreting scripture, but none of them agree completely on what scripture means, so I am inclined to use an interpretation method which has not yet been tried...namely, reading the bible with the intention of recognizing the obvious story which runs with continuity, completely through the bible.
I would be inclined to start a thread entitled; Does anyone here believe in a bible which is not in code, but is clearly and completely revealed in the story it tells?
However, I live to be convinced of truth I do not currently possess, so convince away...LOL

Joseph Smith with help from his angel Moroni also unlocked the hidden code in order to reveal it to us. And for many years translating the Bible into the language of common man resulted in torture and death. Is it possible that perhaps we should just leave people to read their Bible and conclude from it what they may? I have no fear of what that may result in. What I do fear are much of the explanatory and supporting texts purporting to tell me what God really meant.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Sparko,

The whole bible code thing smacks of numerology and new age nonsense to me anyway. Wasting your time finding secret messages and codes is, in my opinion, a good way for Satan to sidetrack your Christian walk into some irrelevant obsession and thereby render you useless to the kingdom. If you spend all your time looking for coded messages and meaning, and trying to get others to do the same, then you are wasting your time and not spreading the gospel or even learning about God's word and what Jesus taught. You are obsessed with minutae.

Has it occured to you that by decoding the NIV Bible, spreading news about my findings and defending it on forums such as this, I may be serving God, rather than Satan? Because that's what I believe. The code exists to help bring the Kingdom into being.

Even if true, the codes will not convince anyone that the bible is true that does not already believe it. They will just dismiss it as another crackpot idea (which it is IMHO). So the usefulness of such a pursuit is pretty much nil.

Actually, the codes may well convince the skeptic, particularly the mathematically literate skeptic, of the truth of the Bible. It also reveals something of God to us: God has imprinted the Bible with his own thoughts.

In Christ,

BT

[Sparko]

Sorry blue, but the whole bible code reminds me of this page that parodies such stuff.

http://www.somethingawful.com/learning_triangle/index.htm

You can make up numbers that prove anything you want to. If your three verses about emanuel did not add up to the number you had for Jesus, you would have found some other verses and we would be reading those in your 'proof'

Or you would have decided that the numbers you assigned to the letters of the alphabet would have been done differently or some such.

When you go looking for coincidences, you will find them.

Anyone who is mathmatically literate would be the LAST one to fall for such shallow numerology.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Crusader,

Sorry, but to the unregenerated heart, the Bible will always seem to be the "deluded rantings of provincial first century Jews, rather than a work inspired by God." It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict the soul of sin and regenerate the spirit, that man might know and love God and His Word.

Yes, this is indeed true! And the code may well be one method of "regenerating" the hearts of unbelievers! The code itself is the fruit of the Holy Spirit's inspiration. The only other possiblity is that the NIV translators conspired to confuse us. Since there were over a hundred scholars involved in the project, from different denominations, and the whole, complicated process was under the control of several committees, I can't see how that could have been achieved.

Don't forget that if the code is genuine, then it is part of God's Word.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Steadele,

Why worry about reading the actual scripture when we can focus on things that are hidden in "mathematical" codes?

Why can't we do both? It doesn't have to be one of the other. Kabbalists say that gematria is the spice of the Torah, not the whole dish.

Bible codes....Bible wheels....

Whats next?

Maybe if we record the scripture and play it backwards we can find some messages...

Or we could take a picture of the scripture and see if there are any "hidden" messages that appear if we view the photo out of focus....

Perhaps, but you'd be best to wait until you were inspired by the Holy Spirit before you tried anything like that, or you'd probably be wasting your time.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Crusader,

And, if you claim to be persecuted, remember it must be for the Lord Jesus, and not some New Age system of Biblical interpretation. You might as well go to the Kabala as to this silly Bible code system. John is right, it's a glorified numerology and another trick of the enemy to keep us away from the Word of Life.

What's New Age about it? The ELS Bible Code (whether real or not) is promoted by believing Jews, not new agers. Gematria and similar techniques of analysing Hebrew words were originally practiced by Jews. The kabbalah itself dates back, at the very least, to medieval Spain and probably much further. It has certainly spawned some new age progeny, but it is a recognised movement within Judaism. There are also Christian kabbalists. However, I am not a kabbalist of any kind, although I do use kabbalistic techniques.

Crusader, why would the "enemy" encode numbers that appear to validate the Bible? I suspect that the only enemy is your own fear, which keeps you from investigating further. Have courage.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Steadele and Sparko,

What happens if you add the numbers using a BASE 7 numbering system instead of BASE 10?

We all know that 7 is much more Godly than 10.......


I haven't time to find out. It's best not to look for complications anyway. One of the reasons I believe the code to be genuine is because it displays an elegant simplicity, marrying the base-10 numbering system with the 26 letters of the alphabet. Simplicity is the hallmark of God. 10 is in fact a very interesting number. For instance, The triangular representation of 10 was known to the Pythagoreans as "the tetractys of the decad" and was venerated by them. 10 is the sum of the first four numbers and triangle 10 has four rows, representing the four elements. It also embodies the musical intervals of the octave, the fifth and the fourth.

Actually, regarding 7, the holiest of biblical numbers:

Lord (o) = 49 = 7 x 7
Christ (o) = 77

Sparko,

Sorry blue, but the whole bible code reminds me of this page that parodies such stuff.

http://www.somethingawful.com/learn...angle/index.htm

You can make up numbers that prove anything you want to. If your three verses about emanuel did not add up to the number you had for Jesus, you would have found some other verses and we would be reading those in your 'proof'

If it reminds you of crackpot theories then I suggest you are not looking deeply enough! Let the mockers mock! You don't have to be like that.

Regarding Immanuel, I have tried to give you evidence based on a common theme: Jesus Christ. This is found throughout the NIV Bible and is always related to the theme of the passages with which the numbers are associated. I simply found what was there. If that doesn't convince you, fair enough. I can give you more evidence. You certainly can make up numbers to apparently prove anything. But I'm not making them up. They are there already, within highly significant veres. Once they are decoded, they can be seen to relate to the surface text in a predictable way. This is the sign of intelligent design.

Or you would have decided that the numbers you assigned to the letters of the alphabet would have been done differently or some such.

When you go looking for coincidences, you will find them.

I didn't decide anything. I simply adapted a scheme of numeration that has already been in use for many centuries. Neither did I go looking for anything. The code came to me, not the other way around!

Anyone who is mathmatically literate would be the LAST one to fall for such shallow numerology.

I am not a mathematician, but I know one who is as convinced as me that the Bible contains codes. He works with the Hebrew and Greek scriptures and he has found, like me, that they were designed by an intelligence that communicates through the language of mathematics. For instance the first verse of the Masoretic Genesis 1:1 encodes a set of coordinated geometries based on the number 3. His findings are simply mind blowing.

In Christ,

BT

[Sparko]

Blue, by shallow numerology I mean that your bias is very obvious. You are making up your own coincidences.

For example, in a previous post you say:

Example 1

The first twelve words of the NIV are numerated below:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the.." = 515
Jesus = 515

Numerating the next twelve words we obtain

"earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the.." = 654
Word = 654


It is obvious that you took the number of Jesus and then took as many words as needed from Gen 1:1 to get to 515. If it took 15 words then that would be the "proof" you gave. Then you take the next words in the bible till you get something that matches another word (this time "word") and viola! you have another "proof"

its just silly, thebluetriangle.

Humans can find patterns in anything they study. Finding secret codes in the bible is no different than seeing the virgin mary in a piece of toast or a cloud shaped like Jesus as proof of God.

[Warcraft3]

Hi Steadele,

Why worry about reading the actual scripture when we can focus on things that are hidden in "mathematical" codes?

Why can't we do both? It doesn't have to be one of the other. Kabbalists say that gematria is the spice of the Torah, not the whole dish.

Oh I totally agree......hidden "codes" can reveal so much "hidden" truth....we all know that a plain reading of scripture is way too simplistic to be all that there is....there must be hidden patterns for us to find..

God does like to play "hide and seek"....maybe there is a code somewhere that actually contains a reference to "hide and seek"....Im sure if we look hard enough we can find such a reference....

Bible codes....Bible wheels....

Whats next?

Maybe if we record the scripture and play it backwards we can find some messages...

Or we could take a picture of the scripture and see if there are any "hidden" messages that appear if we view the photo out of focus....

Perhaps, but you'd be best to wait until you were inspired by the Holy Spirit before you tried anything like that, or you'd probably be wasting your time.

Who needs the Holy Spirit when we have numerical patterns though? After all, he put them there for all to find......they are reflections of Gods amazing ability to hide patterns....Im shocked the whole world has not yet been convinced by the amazing "patterns" you have shown us...

I mean the patterns are so obviously divine....how could one even begin to think that you are just cherry picking patterns that exist in any sufficiently large and complex literature?

Its so simple....some arbitrary math, translations, and unrelated connections and poof...we get magical inspired patterns....one would have to be blind not to see it...

[Warcraft3]

Steadele and Sparko,

What happens if you add the numbers using a BASE 7 numbering system instead of BASE 10?

We all know that 7 is much more Godly than 10.......


I haven't time to find out. It's best not to look for complications anyway. One of the reasons I believe the code to be genuine is because it displays an elegant simplicity, marrying the base-10 numbering system with the 26 letters of the alphabet. Simplicity is the hallmark of God. 10 is in fact a very interesting number. For instance, The triangular representation of 10 was known to the Pythagoreans as "the tetractys of the decad" and was venerated by them. 10 is the sum of the first four numbers and triangle 10 has four rows, representing the four elements. It also embodies the musical intervals of the octave, the fifth and the fourth.

Actually, regarding 7, the holiest of biblical numbers:

Lord (o) = 49 = 7 x 7
Christ (o) = 77



Actually the sum of the first four numbers is 6 not 10...

0,1,2,3

And 6 is the DEVILS NUMBER.

Notice that if we add the sum of the first four counting numbers to how many numbers are contained in the first four numbers we get...

6+4 = 10

10 is a Demonic number!!!!!!

Also notice that the number '10' is actually a '2' in binary...and the binary system uses exactly 2 numbers for representation....this is how computers represent numbers symbolically, using base 2!!!!

And since the MARK OF THE BEAST will surely be connected to computers in some way we know that '10' is certainly NOT a Godly number.

10 is also the total number of appendages we have on both hands and feet, and so the number is representative of the sufficiency and independence of man outside of God and His word. So we see that 10 is not only a demonic number, but also a symbol of mans rebellion against God and his attempt to live under his own power.

I cant believe you would even use such a blasphemous number and claim it to be a divine tool!!!!!!!


Horrid!!!!

[wfaber]

And besides, the number of the beast in binary code is 1010011010. That's ten characters long.

[Sparko]

:lmbo: @ Steadele.

You pegged it dude. Computers are of the devil.

And I bet thebluetriangle uses computers to translate the letters into numeric codes too!

...well thebluetriangle, so far NO ONE has bought your little numerology fest. I think we will all stick to READING the bible instead of tryng to 'decode' it.

[Warcraft3]

And besides, the number of the beast in binary code is 1010011010. That's ten characters long.


:eek:

Yikes!!!!

I was unaware the demonic roots of 10 went so deep.......


Good point. Pearls.

[Warcraft3]

:lmbo: @ Steadele.

You pegged it dude. Computers are of the devil.

And I bet thebluetriangle uses computers to translate the letters into numeric codes too!

...well thebluetriangle, so far NO ONE has bought your little numerology fest. I think we will all stick to READING the bible instead of tryng to 'decode' it.

:smile:

Thanks Sparko!!

:thumb:

[thebluetriangle]

Sparko,

It is obvious that you took the number of Jesus and then took as many words as needed from Gen 1:1 to get to 515. If it took 15 words then that would be the "proof" you gave. Then you take the next words in the bible till you get something that matches another word (this time "word") and viola! you have another "proof"

its just silly, thebluetriangle.

Humans can find patterns in anything they study. Finding secret codes in the bible is no different than seeing the virgin mary in a piece of toast or a cloud shaped like Jesus as proof of God.


You're forgetting the very obvious point that most sentences jump right over 515 and 654 and the other numbers representing Jesus Christ, because the average ordinal value of words is about 70. It's very difficult to do probability analyses on encodings, but the work I have done has indicated that the probabilities involved are slim indeed.

Oh, and I'm not saying the code 'proves' anything. It's evidence, not proof.

Here are five opening sentences I've just analysed, looking for numbers related to the Trinity (not just Jesus Christ). One is from the NIV Bible, the other four are novels. My conditions are that

a) all encodings start from the beginning or immediately follow the first encoding.
b) All words are numerated as ordinal values but are decoded as absolute values.

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the...

Ist 12 words = 515 = Jesus
Next 6 words = 391 = Yehoshua
Next 6 words = 263 = Messiah
Therefore 2nd group 12 words = 654 = Word

Notice the 12 pattern and the six pattern (the 1st 12 words break down similarly to give the encoding of the fractal snowflake).

2. Saturday, the last day of August, I started work before dawn. I did not witness mist burning off the grass or the sky turning brilliant blue. Steel tables were occupied by bodies...

Nothing

3. On the sixteenth of October shadowy deer crept to the edge of dark woods beyond my window as the sun peeked over the cover of the night. Plumbing above and below me groaned

Nothing

4. The weather set its trap with all the cunning and skill of a poacher who invites his extended family round for a New year's banquet then realises his cupboard is bare. In the early afternoon the sky was bright...

Nothing

5. Except for the Marabar caves - and they are twenty miles off - the city of Chandrapore presents nothing extraordinary. Edged rather than washed by the river ganges, it trails for a couple of miles along the bank, scarcely distinguishable...

Ordinal value Ist 10 words = 515 = Jesus
Ordinal value next 11 words = 754 = Yehoshua Hamashiah

Now we have indeed found two 'encodings' of names for Jesus. However, they are associated with the numbers 10 (which Steadele informs me is the devil's number) and 11, so they are not part of any larger pattern. Mind you, this is from E.M. Forster's A Passage To India, whereas the others are cheap detective novels. Quality always shows!

Anyway Sparko, how do you know the Virgin Mary wouldn't choose to appear in a piece of toast? Isn't her son the bread of life?!

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Steadele,




Oh I totally agree......hidden "codes" can reveal so much "hidden" truth....we all know that a plain reading of scripture is way too simplistic to be all that there is....there must be hidden patterns for us to find..

God does like to play "hide and seek"....maybe there is a code somewhere that actually contains a reference to "hide and seek"....Im sure if we look hard enough we can find such a reference....

Actually, a plain reading of scripture is indeed too simplistic. There may or may not be codes but there are certainly deeper meanings. The Rabbis say that only a child or a person of limited understanding should take the Torah literally. You are obviously not a person of limited understanding, although, given the tone of your comments so far, the jury is still out on the other possibility...

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Steadele and Sparko,

Actually the sum of the first four numbers is 6 not 10...
0,1,2,3
And 6 is the DEVILS NUMBER.
Notice that if we add the sum of the first four counting numbers to how many numbers are contained in the first four numbers we get...
6+4 = 10
10 is a Demonic number!!!!!!
Also notice that the number '10' is actually a '2' in binary...and the binary system uses exactly 2 numbers for representation....this is how computers represent numbers symbolically, using base 2!!!!
And since the MARK OF THE BEAST will surely be connected to computers in some way we know that '10' is certainly NOT a Godly number.
10 is also the total number of appendages we have on both hands and feet, and so the number is representative of the sufficiency and independence of man outside of God and His word. So we see that 10 is not only a demonic number, but also a symbol of mans rebellion against God and his attempt to live under his own power.
I cant believe you would even use such a blasphemous number and claim it to be a divine tool!!!!!!!Horrid!!!!

I meant the first four natural numbers, of course, rather than the positive integers.

Actually, you may be onto something with your MARK OF THE BEAST contribution to the discussion..

Mark of the beast (a) = 738

Now if you sum all the cardinal numbers in Rev. 13:18 you obtain...738.


Sparko,

I didn't use computers. I did it all with a hand calculator. But then, that's just a little computer isn't it? Oh well, I'll just use my fingers from now on. Oh no! There are ten of them! I have the MARK on me! Maybe we're just not meant to count at all.


In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Hi wfaber,

And besides, the number of the beast in binary code is 1010011010. That's ten characters long.

Actually, only in base 10 does 666 have such an eye-catching form. But what of 666?

666 is a triangular number. This is because it is the sum of the first 36 numbers. If you study the triangular representation of 666, apart from being subtly drawn into the world of the demonic, you will notice some very interesting phenomena.

The base of the triangle is 36 (6 x 6). This is the 8th triangular number.

The outline (number of discs around the perimeter) is 105. This is the 14th triangular number.

The number 666 itself can be partitioned into 6 and 66.

6 is the 3rd triangular number.
66 is the 11th triangular number.

666 is only 666 in base 10, 10 being the 4th triangular number.

In other words 666 is the archetype of triangularity, in addition to any other properties it may have.

In Christ,

BT

[Provoker]

Hi guys:
Those who are making great fun of bt, should be aware that their own beliefs are based on denominational decoding, by hunting through scripture for single verses or passages which could be assembled to make a specific doctrinal story.
The one thing that Christianity, at large, has not tried, is a plain reading of the bible story. Yes, many Christians have read the bible through, but they have all read with a doctrinal bias, which blinded their eyes to the plain and simple, but unrecognized, story which flows with obvious and undeniable continuity, right before their eyes, through scripture.
The thousands of doctrinally opposing denominations, which all "decode" the bible by the same "find-single-verses-which-fit" method, have created the ridiculous situation in which the ultimate bible code is just the plain and simple story which runs through scripture.
What do you think?

[Sparko]

Anyway Sparko, how do you know the Virgin Mary wouldn't choose to appear in a piece of toast? Isn't her son the bread of life?!



You see? That is about the level of rationalization you are using with your bible code. And it is transparent to everyone reading this thread. You force coincidences together (like toast and Jesus being the bread of life) and viola! you have "evidence"

That is just magical thinking, thebluetriangle. It is superstition. It is no different than following astrology or divination or reading palms or feeling the bumps on someone's skull to determine their future. The bible condemns all such practices. It is pagan nonsense under the guise of christianity.

[Sparko]

Hi guys:
Those who are making great fun of bt, should be aware that their own beliefs are based on denominational decoding, by hunting through scripture for single verses or passages which could be assembled to make a specific doctrinal story.
The one thing that Christianity, at large, has not tried, is a plain reading of the bible story. Yes, many Christians have read the bible through, but they have all read with a doctrinal bias, which blinded their eyes to the plain and simple, but unrecognized, story which flows with obvious and undeniable continuity, right before their eyes, through scripture.
The thousands of doctrinally opposing denominations, which all "decode" the bible by the same "find-single-verses-which-fit" method, have created the ridiculous situation in which the ultimate bible code is just the plain and simple story which runs through scripture.
What do you think?


Interpretation is not decoding in the sense of trying to find secret messages in the bible. At least not true interpretation, or exogesis. Quite the opposite. True exogesis is about getting the actual meaning out of the verse in context without bias. Now if someone did try to find hidden meaning in the words (like perhaps saying that there was a special meaning in which side of the boat Peter cast his net, for example) then yeah, they would be doing the same thing blue triangle is doing.

Some verses do have a way of being interpreted in different ways, and that does lead to differences in denominations, but on the whole that has nothing to do with looking for secret messages hidden in the text. They are looking for the plain messages that the text is providing.

[wfaber]

But since there are three persons in the trinity, maybe we should use the third singularity, which is the number 6. The number 666 is base 6 would be 3030.

But if we use base 3 as representing the trinity, the number 666 becomes 220200.

But since the number 7 is the number of perfection, let's use base 7. 666 in base ten becomes 1641, which just happens to be the year of the Irish rebellion, in which 12,000 protestant settlers of Ulster were brutally massacred by the Roman Catholic residents.

) has a point. Maybe there is something to this numberology.
(Either that or he's just plain nuts!)

[roddmann]

You will get a following because the numerical coincidences appear to be more than coincidence - there simply are too many of them. And nothing wrong with this hobby just as there is nothing wrong with knowing everything about everyone who was in Star Trek. But don't miss the message for the math. It is about Christ and Him crucified, not arithmetic.

[Warcraft3]

But since there are three persons in the trinity, maybe we should use the third singularity, which is the number 6. The number 666 is base 6 would be 3030.

But if we use base 3 as representing the trinity, the number 666 becomes 220200.

But since the number 7 is the number of perfection, let's use base 7. 666 in base ten becomes 1641, which just happens to be the year of the Irish rebellion, in which 12,000 protestant settlers of Ulster were brutally massacred by the Roman Catholic residents.

) has a point. Maybe there is something to this numberology.
(Either that or he's just plain nuts!)




:rofl:

[Sparko]

thebluetriangle is obviously guilty of the Steadele Fallacy.

[Provoker]

Some verses do have a way of being interpreted in different ways, and that does lead to differences in denominations, but on the whole that has nothing to do with looking for secret messages hidden in the text. They are looking for the plain messages that the text is providing.
Hello Sparko:
In theory, that is what appears to have happened, but if the greater context, which is the whole bible story, had ever been considered, there would one heck of a lot less doctrinal disagreements, and therefore one heck of a lot less denominations.
If some verses have a way of being interpreted differently, then there is either something wrong with the way scripture is written...or not all the pertinent context is being considered.
Even though the bible was doctrinally assembled by bishops of the universal church of the Roman empire, it still has a continuous historical record running all the way through it, which is the greater context of the bible, and considering it can probably resolve 95% of the doctrinal disagreements of Christianity.
We all know people who claim that they speak directly to God, and who have these extreme interpretations of scripture which they believe they are commissioned to spread, but these people hardly ever agree with one another. This, plus the fact that there are said to be 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing denominations and sects of Christianity, means that professing Christians are listening to a legion of different spirits, which they all discern as the Holy Spirit. The thing they all have in common, is their belief that their doctrines came from the Holy Spirit.
What if the Holy Spirit cannot be discerned in the way that every last Christian sect believes in common?
30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing sects implies that Christendom is very poor at descerning the spirit of truth, so why not invest in a little reasonable and logical consideration of the reasonable and logical story which runs right through the bible, and which the church avoids like the plague?

[James Peter]

If some verses have a way of being interpreted differently, then there is either something wrong with the way scripture is written...or not all the pertinent context is being considered.

The chief problem being that people disagree about what 'the pertinent context' is - I'd argue that it is to understand who wrote the text, to whom and for what purpose (which gives huge insight into understanding what any specific term or phrase is meant to be understood as). Oh and the fact that many would say the answer for all if "God, to us, so that we could be saved" is a huge problem with most of christianity. Even when those questions are asked though very able scholars disagree on the interpretation of many passages. For example in Galatians 2:16 is it an objective or subjective genitive (pistis christou)? The decision to that question effects the way the entire letter is read. Similarly words can have a range of connotations and which one is understood has huge implications (e.g. 'justification' in Paul, or should that be 'rectification'?)

At other times Scripture is simply just very badly written. The first two verses of 1 John is such a case. Here we have to make reasonable attempts at interpreting the passage and naturally scholars won't all agree. We're dealing with very ancient texts, from a culture that is long lost - it is inevitable that people will understand them differently. Especially as different authors emphasise different concepts (and sometimes are almost opposed to each other). Talking of Scripture as a single entity is the best way to lose huge chunks of meaning from it.

Still, I'm curious about how a simple reading of Scripture from start to finish solves the debate over the nature of the Eucharist/Mass... (as one example)

[Krusader]

We all know people who claim that they speak directly to God, and who have these extreme interpretations of scripture which they believe they are commissioned to spread, but these people hardly ever agree with one another. This, plus the fact that there are said to be 30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing denominations and sects of Christianity, means that professing Christians are listening to a legion of different spirits, which they all discern as the Holy Spirit. The thing they all have in common, is their belief that their doctrines came from the Holy Spirit.
What if the Holy Spirit cannot be discerned in the way that every last Christian sect believes in common?
30,000+ doctrinally disagreeing sects implies that Christendom is very poor at descerning the spirit of truth, so why not invest in a little reasonable and logical consideration of the reasonable and logical story which runs right through the bible, and which the church avoids like the plague?

I'd like to know where you come up with that 30,000 plus figure of "sects." Christians are led by the Holy Spirit into all truth, unless you'd like to contradict Christ on the matter. The Holy Spirit has led all Christians, from many different denominations, to agree on the essentials of the Gospel:

1. The Bible is the inerrant Word of God in the original autographs.
2. The Godhead is a Trinity of Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, of equal power, substance and glory. Christians deny the modalistic or monarchistic view of the Godhead.
3. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, became flesh and dwelt among men. He died a vicarious atoning death on the Cross and was buried and raised in His glorified physical body on the third day.
4. He ascended into Heaven and will come again visibly to this earth in the same glorified body which he ascended with after His resurreciton.
5. Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning death, are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, made children of God by adoption, and will be received into the presence of God when they die. Those who do not will be separated eternally from God in Hell.

These are the very basic doctrines of Christianity to which all Christians adhere. Now, denominations may have various views on baptism, the Lord's Supper, Church government and administration, etc. - and these differences are often the cause of deep concern. However, Christians dwell in unity when it comes to the basic doctrines of the Christian faith.

Now, some will number Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and their offshoots, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification, Universalists, Unitarians, and other cultists as Christian sects - however these groups are not sects of Christianity, but are non-Christian entities posing as Christian. There are myriads of these non-Christian cults who do not hold to the basic doctrines identifying a group as Christians.

So, to say that the Holy Spirit has not led the Body of Christ to hold the faith in unity (and they do so by all agreeing on the basic doctrines of Christianity), is simply wrong. Denominational differences may even be positive in some instances - I refer you to the book "The Holy Spirit and You," by Dennis Bennett.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Sparko,

Anyway Sparko, how do you know the Virgin Mary wouldn't choose to appear in a piece of toast? Isn't her son the bread of life?!

You see? That is about the level of rationalization you are using with your bible code. And it is transparent to everyone reading this thread. You force coincidences together (like toast and Jesus being the bread of life) and viola! you have "evidence"

That was a joke.

That is just magical thinking, thebluetriangle. It is superstition. It is no different than following astrology or divination or reading palms or feeling the bumps on someone's skull to determine their future. The bible condemns all such practices. It is pagan nonsense under the guise of christianity.


What are you scared of? That the code will show Christianity as you understand it to be untrue? That it will shed new and unwelcome light on the Bible itself?

If the code is real then, sooner or later, you must take notice. If it then demolishes cherished beliefs then, sooner or later, you must accept that. You have no option in the long run, because the truth will out - and truth is an aspect of God.

You are attacking me because you have something to defend. I have nothing to defend. The truth needs no defence. I'm simply pointing out to you something I have found, because I think it will benefit you to know about it. It's up to you to decide what you think of the code. No amount of denial on your part will change what is true.

Why am I so certain there really is a code there? Because I was given the task of finding the code by Jesus himself. It was and is an 'assignment' I have to complete. That shouldn't convince you the code is real. Only the evidence should do that. But you should understand that I am myself completely convinced that the code is real. The most startling piece of evidence was two verses that appeared on a bookmark belonging to my Alpha course director, which a voice twice told her was for me. This was on 11/15/01, a day when I myself received two signs, which were a mystery to me until this person confronted me with the bookmark and asked me what was going on. The words were exactly as follows:

Dear Bill

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Love Paul


These verses are I Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NIV) and I eventually discovered that they are encoded with the numerical signature of God. In fact they are the key that unlocked the entire code, because they show exactly how numbers are encoded, by the two systems I showed earlier, used in the correct combination.

I Thess 5:23 (o) = 1559
Our Lord Jesus Christ (a) = 1559

I Thess 5:24 (o) = 468
The Lord God (a) = 468

Total ordinal value of the words = 2194
NIV Genesis 1:1 (a) = 2194

In Christ,

Bill

[Sparko]

Okaaaaay...

God spoke to you through a bookmark and told you to do this....

It all makes makes sense now....

..carry on!

:thumb:

[Krusader]

You know this whole Bible code heresy reminds me of that old heretic, Swedenborg, who taught that the Words of Scripture had an "internal" sense that he, Swedenborg, was now revealing to the world. Must be the same old demon at work again.

[Warcraft3]

thebluetriangle is obviously guilty of the Steadele Fallacy.

Heh....

Indeed...

[James Peter]

I believe we all must walk the path laid before us. Of course we have to test carefully who has laid the path at our feet but if we are convinced it is God who asks us to walk it then I think we have no option except to follow it. I still remain unconvinced by the code, especially because of its foundation on the NIV. Regardless of that though I wish you success in this. Perhaps you will one day discover enough evidence to convince me, perhaps not. Perhaps doing this is only one step on the path to something else God has planned for you. Often our training is unfathomable without the benefit of hindsight.

My final caution is this - test the spirits. Take some time out, fast and pray for guidance. If you remain convinced then pursue this with every resource you have. Just be aware that you need to not only find more evidence but also to think about the consequences and applications of your 'discovery'.

In Christ, Through Christ, For Christ.

JP.

[wfaber]

For those interested in learning more about Bill Downie's (a.k.a. thebluetriangle) amazing discoveries in the world of gematria, check out Brian Allen's biographical review at www.p-e-g.co.uk/Web/Cases/CASESArticle7.htm (http://www.p-e-g.co.uk/Web/Cases/CASESArticle7.htm)

If you would like more information on how Mr. Downie discovered the that the tragic events of 9/11/01 were in reality judgment day and the date of the Lord's return, you can look that up at:

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/judgmentday.html
http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/911introduction.html

He will also tell you how on the morning of 9/11 he heard an inner voice calling "serpent power," leading him to discover the connection between the terrorist attacks and the Lord's return.

And if you're not convinced, he can also tell you the connection between the number 666 and the City of New York + The City of Boston + The City of Washington (but unfortunately it leaves out a certain field in Pennsylvania). But he also shows the connection between President George Bush, + President Bill Clinton + President George Bush and the number 666.

Or for more information about his New Bible Code, check out his website at www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk (http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk). Really fascinating reading.

Oh yes, a few humorous quotations from Mr. Downie from the Angel Haven website:

"Now I know what you're thinking, but if you pick up a discarded crisp packet, scrunch it up, put it to your ear then let it go you can hear the ancient ones whispering softly to you over the ages. Listen to their dry, rasping voices and you will learn much... I have gained many secrets from those ancient sages by this unusual but effective technique. Cheese and onion crisp packets appear to be particularly 'packed' with wisdom. And its free - enlightenment is only a wastebasket away. Try it. You'll see."

“Mother Gaia is the womb in which the Great Potato plants his seed, nurturing them so that his sons may be plentiful upon the earth.”

If you don't have an account with Angel Haven, you could probably do a google search on "thebluetriangle" and click onto the "cached" link.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi wfaber,

You should be an investigative reporter. Well done!

Try to be big about it, though. To

a) take what were a couple of humorous postings out of context, and

b) try to poison readers minds before they have a chance to actually examine my work

is rather small, isn't it?

In Christ,

BT

[roddmann]

I will give you this much - you are one determined debater, no doubt about it. I give up, you win, you've worn me out. Where can I get the decoder ring, special goggles, an angel like Moroni or whatever it is I need to understand this bit of mathematical magic? And once I have digested and understood the bulk of it, what should I do with it? Get others to join the club?

[wfaber]

I didn't have the context for the Angel Haven quotes, and there's no way I could get them. From what I could see, it was obviously in jest, and that is why I described them as humorous. I didn't think you were serious. But they were poetic and funny.

As for poisoning minds: Why haven't you come right out and given us your website and everything you believe from the start? You came to TheologyWeb eight months ago and spent a few days implying that there was some significance to the terrorist attacks on 9/11, but nowhere the detail that your New Bible Code suggests.

The only poisoning I did was a little sarcasm in my expressions. But I did give some websites for everybody to read and understand more about where you are coming from. I think Brian Allen put you in a very favorable spotlight. And your graphics are excellent, probably better than Biblewheel's.

I would suggest you be more open about what you believe with respect to the second coming of Christ, about the kaballah, about crop circles, etc.

And don't start crying persecution. Since I joined T-Web, I have seen several people come on with some new sort of revelation or enlightenment he felt he should share with the rest of us. And when we failed to accept these new ideas with open arms, we were accused of being judgmental and persecuting. Well, maybe a little judgmental. Then we're accused of rejecting the message and killing the prophets whom God sent. Then they drop out altogether.

There was Biblewheel, with whom you are familiar. I think he finally gave up. There was somebody else who insisted that floaters inside your eyeball were really demons hovering outside your eyes looking into your soul. There's one guy still here who insists he's one of the two witnesses of Revelation and had been given a special revelation in his bedroom. There are those who insist that God's name be spelled a certain way, another who insists that we must honor the Sabbath. I'm sure there were others before I got here, and there will be others in the future. As far as I can see, you're just one more.

At the risk of making this thread another means by which both sides of an issue start throwing Bible verses at each other, let me just quote from this one verse. I'll even use the NIV:
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

[thebluetriangle]

James Peter,

I believe we all must walk the path laid before us. Of course we have to test carefully who has laid the path at our feet but if we are convinced it is God who asks us to walk it then I think we have no option except to follow it. I still remain unconvinced by the code, especially because of its foundation on the NIV. Regardless of that though I wish you success in this. Perhaps you will one day discover enough evidence to convince me, perhaps not. Perhaps doing this is only one step on the path to something else God has planned for you. Often our training is unfathomable without the benefit of hindsight.

My final caution is this - test the spirits. Take some time out, fast and pray for guidance. If you remain convinced then pursue this with every resource you have. Just be aware that you need to not only find more evidence but also to think about the consequences and applications of your 'discovery'.

A sincere thankyou for this advice and for your open minded attitude. I do pray for guidance and I have considered fasting recently. I have to say, though, that when you have the attention of the Holy Spirit, there is little you can do about it, other than follow along. This I have done to the best of my ability, stumbling almost every step along the way, as I have no doubt stumbled today.

Please understand, though, that something real did indeed happen to me. In fact, that is why, having been an atheist since the age of eleven, I was first converted to theism by an inner vision, then guided to become a Christian by an extraordinary series of spiritual experiences, synchronicities and other unexplainable events. I did not want to become a Christian - I still find much of Christianity difficult to believe - but I followed where I was led. After three and a half years, in November 2001, I was given my task, and I have struggled to complete it since then, fully aware that I am doing a rather poor job.

The code I found is, as wfaber correctly stated, centred around 9/11, which was the first sign of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The second sign was the funeral of Pope John Paul II. I don't know if there will be more. On both days I received inner messages, whilst in the hypnogogic state.

It may interest you to know that there were 254 days from the start of the third millenium (1/1/2001, not 2000) to 9/11 and 1559 days from the start of the third millenium to the funeral of the Pope.

Our Lord Jesus Christ (o) = 254
Our Lord Jesus Christ (a) = 1559

If you want to see an excellent prophecy of 9/11 in the Bible, see Daniel 8. You might also want to look at Genesis 11, Genesis 22, Exodus 27 & 38, Mark 11, Revelation 11, Revelation 13 (especially 13:11), Revelation 18 and many other biblical passages, which can all be interpreted as prophecies of 9/11. And yes, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ may also have been a prophecy of 9/11, the two criminals representing the twin towers and the Pentagon representing Jesus. I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't crucified. I'm saying that 9/11 was a reenactment of the crucifixion.

9/11 was the work of terrorists. However, I believe that the Holy Spirit manipulated events - perhaps even the entire drama - to encode a message of vital importance to us all. What is the message? Look at the 9/11 targets. The Pentagon represents force of arms, political and military power. The WTC represented economic and financial power. In fact they were the very horns of the beast, which of course is our own materialism. The message is simple:These are the forces that enslave you!

If we are to survive the current world crisis - and we may not - then we have follow the drastic example of 9/11 and 'crucify' the beast within us - of which the twin towers are merely symbols - and live the Risen life.

In Christ,

Bill

[thebluetriangle]

wfaber,

I apologise if I have offended you.

As for poisoning minds: Why haven't you come right out and given us your website and everything you believe from the start? You came to TheologyWeb eight months ago and spent a few days implying that there was some significance to the terrorist attacks on 9/11, but nowhere the detail that your New Bible Code suggests.


There is no way I can do this right. I have tried every approach under the sun and I would have eventually given you my URL. The idea was to give you some of my best evidence and see where it led. I wouldn't have believed the full story either if someone had simply shoved it under my nose.

As for the biblewheel site, it is still going strong. I also suggest you look at the truly excellent work of Vernon Jenkins (otherbiblecode.com).

As for your quote, who am I, an evangelist or a deceitful schemer?

In Christ,

BT

[wfaber]

As for your quote, who am I, an evangelist or a deceitful schemer?
Neither. You're part of the body of Christ. Take Paul's advice, be a mature Christian, built up in the faith and strong in the Word, and don't allow yourself to be blown about by false teaching.

[thebluetriangle]

Roddman,

I will give you this much - you are one determined debater, no doubt about it. I give up, you win, you've worn me out. Where can I get the decoder ring, special goggles, an angel like Moroni or whatever it is I need to understand this bit of mathematical magic? And once I have digested and understood the bulk of it, what should I do with it? Get others to join the club?


You don't need special goggles. Just ask the Holy Spirit - sincerely - to guide you. I didn't understand what I had at the start. My early efforts were 95% wrong and full of new age mysticism. It's taken me four years to properly comprehend the code and in fact my understanding will continue to grow. I am presently carrying out a major review of the entire site, because some of the older pages badly need reviewing (gematria is not an exact science).

I have no idea myself where this is leading. I'm simply trying to do my best.

In Christ,

BT

[Sparko]

blue,
I went and read that other thread you had on this board, and it seems you pretty much got the same reaction to your numerology nonsense there as you are getting here.

We are not easily swayed with such silliness. We read the bible for what it SAYS and not for hidden codes. You seem to be trying to link various dates with various verse numbers and so on. Steadele did a little parody on what you were doing when he was talking about the various numbering systems and how the number 10 is demonic, but after reading your wild and wacky writings on 9/11 and Daniel, I am convinced Steadele was much more on target with his parody than I first thought. That is exactly how you think.

I am not sure if maybe you might have some mental disorder, like ADD combined with obsessive compulsive disorder, or maybe you are just easily seduced by new age mumbo jumbo like numerology, but in any case, you really need to see someone about this. Someone professional. If you are hearing voices from snack food bags and bookmarks, you need help. Seriously.

[studyhound]

Reveling a members real name is not permitted (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/faq.php?faq=campus_decorum#faq_campus_decorum_anonymity)

[Provoker]

Still, I'm curious about how a simple reading of Scripture from start to finish solves the debate over the nature of the Eucharist/Mass... (as one example)
Hello James Peter:
My point about pertinent context is this; A single word cannot be definitively interpreted with a dictionary, but must be interpreted in the context of the sentence in which it is used, but that is the final layer of context. Before that point is reached, the sentence must be interpreted in the context of the paragraph, and the paragraph must be interpreted in the context of the chapter, and the chapter must be interpreted in the context of the book, and the book must be interpreted in the context of all the books, etc, etc.
That is just "for an example", and I am not suggesting that there are black and white demarkations between the layers of context.
While the books of the bible were written by different authors at different times, there is enough overlap between them to reveal dozens of errors, because the different writers tell the story just a little differently. One author will say 50,000, where another author will say 5000, or one will say 120,000, and the other 20,000, so apologists for divine authorship and inerrancy, tend not to emphasize the overlaps, and that is a big mistake in my opinion.
From the fact that the old testament has dozens of contradictions revealed by the overlapping writings, we have to recognize the probability that the whole bible contains similar errors, which are not so easily revealed, but could be factors in making false doctrines.
The great thing about the overlapping writings though, is that it clearly establishes that there is one consistent story, running completely through the bible, which is the context which may reveal the correct statement in a scriptural conflict, and may also correct errors in existing doctrines.
In other words, there is a continuous and consistent background story running through the bible, and it just happens to be the broadest layer of context, within which all the rest of the layers of context were written.
So a simple reading of the bible story, without over emphasizing any particular verse or passage, will give one an understanding of the total story, by which he can understand the details within the story.
When one reads any story from the beginning, by the time he comes to the end, he understands the whole story, but when he tells someone else the story, he doesn't quote sentences from the story, he synopsizes the story because he understands the story. Simply quoting sentences from the story, without expaining how they fit into the context of the whole story, would just give the listener the wrong idea.
What do you think?

[Provoker]

The Holy Spirit has led all Christians, from many different denominations, ***to agree on the essentials*** of the Gospel:
Does the Holy Spirit only teach the essentials? Is the rest of the bible unimportant to Him? 1. The Bible is the inerrant Word of God ***in the original autographs***.Well, let us study the original autographs then, would you produce them?...LOL
2. The Godhead is a Trinity of Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, of equal power, substance and glory. Christians deny the modalistic or monarchistic view of the Godhead.
3. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, became flesh and dwelt among men. He died a vicarious atoning death on the Cross and was buried and raised in His glorified physical body on the third day.
4. He ascended into Heaven and will come again visibly to this earth in the same glorified body which he ascended with after His resurreciton.
5. Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning death, are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, made children of God by adoption, and will be received into the presence of God when they die. Those who do not will be separated eternally from God in Hell.

These are the very basic doctrines of Christianity to which all Christians adhere. Now, denominations may have various views on baptism, the Lord's Supper, Church government and administration, etc. - and these differences are often the cause of deep concern. However, Christians dwell in unity when it comes to the basic doctrines of the Christian faith.
Do you not find it curious that God could not compact the whole bible into 5 simple sentences?

Now, some will number Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and their offshoots, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification, Universalists, Unitarians, and other cultists as Christian sects - however these groups are not sects of Christianity, but are non-Christian entities posing as Christian. There are myriads of these non-Christian cults who do not hold to the basic doctrines identifying a group as Christians.Don't you mean "identifying ***your*** group as Christians?

So, to say that the Holy Spirit has not led the Body of Christ to hold the faith in unity (and they do so by all agreeing on the basic doctrines of Christianity), is simply wrong. Denominational differences may even be positive in some instances - I refer you to the book "The Holy Spirit and You," by Dennis Bennett.
When in discussion, one appeals to the works of others, he argues from memory, not from understanding.

[roddmann]

Roddman,

I will give you this much - you are one determined debater, no doubt about it. I give up, you win, you've worn me out. Where can I get the decoder ring, special goggles, an angel like Moroni or whatever it is I need to understand this bit of mathematical magic? And once I have digested and understood the bulk of it, what should I do with it? Get others to join the club?


You don't need special goggles. Just ask the Holy Spirit - sincerely - to guide you. I didn't understand what I had at the start. My early efforts were 95% wrong and full of new age mysticism. It's taken me four years to properly comprehend the code and in fact my understanding will continue to grow. I am presently carrying out a major review of the entire site, because some of the older pages badly need reviewing (gematria is not an exact science).

I have no idea myself where this is leading. I'm simply trying to do my best.

In Christ,

BT

Fair enough. I respect your well researched and enthusiastic views BT and between you and I - it does appear that something is going on with all of this. "Coincidence" doesn't quite explain it away. Perhaps our Creator is the ultimate mathematician, musician, etc., it certainly could be...

[thebluetriangle]

Crusader,

You know this whole Bible code heresy reminds me of that old heretic, Swedenborg, who taught that the Words of Scripture had an "internal" sense that he, Swedenborg, was now revealing to the world. Must be the same old demon at work again.

Swedenborg was a brilliant, high functioning individual. He was also a mystic and a true explorer of the inner realms. I have no doubt that the church would have labelled him a heretic, but he was an honest man, who faithfully reported his experiences.

As for the bible code, if it's from God it's not heresy.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

wfaber,

Just a few loose ends to tidy up.

I would suggest you be more open about what you believe with respect to the second coming of Christ, about the kaballah, about crop circles, etc.


I've answered the point about my openness in an earlier posting, I'm not a kabbalist (although there are obvious points of resemblance) and there is no mention of crop circles on my site. Please be accurate.

And don't start crying persecution. Since I joined T-Web, I have seen several people come on with some new sort of revelation or enlightenment he felt he should share with the rest of us. And when we failed to accept these new ideas with open arms, we were accused of being judgmental and persecuting. Well, maybe a little judgmental. Then we're accused of rejecting the message and killing the prophets whom God sent. Then they drop out altogether.

I came here expecting this kind of reaction from most of you. I do not expect an easy time and I can take anything you can throw at me. I just hope you are open-minded enough to at least consider the possibility that it might be true. That's all.

As for your quote, who am I, an evangelist or a deceitful schemer?

Neither. You're part of the body of Christ. Take Paul's advice, be a mature Christian, built up in the faith and strong in the Word, and don't allow yourself to be blown about by false teaching.


But my so-called 'false teaching' comes from the Holy Spirit! Nobody taught me any of this. I was 'blown about' by the wind of the Spirit, which was more like a hurricane.

So you're a mature Christian are you? You've yet to prove it.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Roddman

Fair enough. I respect your well researched and enthusiastic views BT and between you and I - it does appear that something is going on with all of this. "Coincidence" doesn't quite explain it away. Perhaps our Creator is the ultimate mathematician, musician, etc., it certainly could be...


Thanks for the support!

Yes, God is a mathematician. I've found three mathematical numbers, pi, Phi and e, apparently encoded in the NIV bible (pi also involves the Masoretic).

The individual errors are about 1 in 1000 to 1 in 3000. However, when the three numbers are summed, something incredible happens: the combined error reduces to 1 in 5 000 000. This is not coincidence! Moreover, the verses involved are Genesis 1:1, John 1:1 and the four inscriptions on the cross.

I found it after studying the work of Vernon Jenkins (otherbiblecode.com) and coworkers, who found pi encoded in Genesis 1:1 and e encoded in John 1:1, in exactly the same way each time. The individual errors were only 1 part in 100 000. Moreover, e (Euler's number) was unknown to science when John was written. It is very, very impressive evidence of the divine hand at work and I recommend you look at it.

We have both found an important physical constant, alpha (the fine structure constant) encoded, within our respective versions. Once again the error from the true value is tiny.

In Christ,

Bill

[wfaber]

. . .and there is no mention of crop circles on my site. Please be accurate.

It wasn't on T-Web. I found a website by Joseph E. Mason about a beehive-shaped crop circle formation at Milk Hill, Wiltshire, goes into other crop circles, "the twelve bees" (=151), then cites your geocities website and your bible code website. That is why I was wondering what, if any, your connection was to crop circles.

Since the bee-hive crop circle formation website gives your name and contains links to other websites that also have your name, I will refrain from posting it. I told Studyhound I would behave.

[James Peter]

Yes, God is a mathematician. I've found three mathematical numbers, pi, Phi and e, apparently encoded in the NIV bible (pi also involves the Masoretic).

The individual errors are about 1 in 1000 to 1 in 3000. However, when the three numbers are summed, something incredible happens: the combined error reduces to 1 in 5 000 000. This is not coincidence! Moreover, the verses involved are Genesis 1:1, John 1:1 and the four inscriptions on the cross.
...

We have both found an important physical constant, alpha (the fine structure constant) encoded, within our respective versions. Once again the error from the true value is tiny.

Now that gets my attention more. Care to demonstrate? If the odds of any verse containing that sort of encoding are more than about 1 in a thousand and its contained in Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 then I'll be forced to reconsider my position. Although that doesn't mean that my conclusion will be that the source of such a 'coincidence' is divine...

[Warcraft3]

What are you scared of? That the code will show Christianity as you understand it to be untrue? That it will shed new and unwelcome light on the Bible itself?

:lol:

Sure thats it....we are soooooo scared of the 'truth' of your idiotic "codes"....

Cause you are so deep and wise and spiritual....oh great sage....

If the code is real then, sooner or later, you must take notice. If it then demolishes cherished beliefs then, sooner or later, you must accept that. You have no option in the long run, because the truth will out - and truth is an aspect of God.

And the truth is that you are full of it.....

You are attacking me because you have something to defend. I have nothing to defend. The truth needs no defence. I'm simply pointing out to you something I have found, because I think it will benefit you to know about it. It's up to you to decide what you think of the code. No amount of denial on your part will change what is true.

I have encoded something in the line of symbols below...see if you can find it...


1y2o3u 4a5r6e 7a 8m9o!r?o}n


Why am I so certain there really is a code there? Because I was given the task of finding the code by Jesus himself. It was and is an 'assignment' I have to complete. That shouldn't convince you the code is real. Only the evidence should do that. But you should understand that I am myself completely convinced that the code is real.

Here we go again.....yet another person claiming to be Gods "chosen one"......yes the code has been hidden these many years.....hidden from humanity until the great "bluetriangle" could finally enlighten mankind...

God specifically chose him to find and decipher the code, and then to create a website and post on debate forums.

How lucky we are to have such a gifted, inspired, chosen, wise, and spiritual sage here at TWEB....

All hail bluetriangle!!! :ahem:

The most startling piece of evidence was two verses that appeared on a bookmark belonging to my Alpha course director, which a voice twice told her was for me. This was on 11/15/01, a day when I myself received two signs, which were a mystery to me until this person confronted me with the bookmark and asked me what was going on. The words were exactly as follows:

Dear Bill

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Love Paul


These verses are I Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NIV) and I eventually discovered that they are encoded with the numerical signature of God. In fact they are the key that unlocked the entire code, because they show exactly how numbers are encoded, by the two systems I showed earlier, used in the correct combination.

I Thess 5:23 (o) = 1559
Our Lord Jesus Christ (a) = 1559

I Thess 5:24 (o) = 468
The Lord God (a) = 468

Total ordinal value of the words = 2194
NIV Genesis 1:1 (a) = 2194

In Christ,

Bill


That was your sign??!!!

Very questionable and weak...

How pathetic and lame...

You sound like someone who thinks getting a good parking spot at the mall is divine intervention...

I have seen a few 'signs' in my lifetime and I know a few people that have seen a few.....your 'signs' are way too weak to be labeled as such.

Give me a break dude :ahem:

Spare us you delusions of being the "chosen one"....you arent special, you arent chosen, and your codes are a bunch of baloney.

[Provoker]

Hello Blue T:
When king James had the bible translated into English, he gave the final translation drafts to his friend Sir Francis Bacon, to edit them into Shakespearean type English, and Bacon worked on it for a year before it was published.
During the middle ages, it was necessary to communicate politicly incorrect opinions in codes and allegory, to stay out of prison, and encryption became a European fad. Every European court had it's own diplomatic cypher expert.
Bacon was a master of the art, and it became his hobby to encrypt secret words and symbols in his writings, and he is believed to have encrypted secret words in the KJV bible. Most later English translations were still written with Bacon's standard KJV sentence structure.
Just a little something to think about:-)

[Sparko]

Hello Blue T:
When king James had the bible translated into English, he gave the final translation drafts to his friend Sir Francis Bacon, to edit them into Shakespearean type English, and Bacon worked on it for a year before it was published.
During the middle ages, it was necessary to communicate politicly incorrect opinions in codes and allegory, to stay out of prison, and encryption became a European fad. Every European court had it's own diplomatic cypher expert.
Bacon was a master of the art, and it became his hobby to encrypt secret words and symbols in his writings, and he is believed to have encrypted secret words in the KJV bible. Most later English translations were still written with Bacon's standard KJV sentence structure.
Just a little something to think about:-)

Where do people come up with this stuff? Sheesh. According to the conspiracy theorists, Bacon ghost wrote Shakespear's plays too. The guy sure was busy, writing bibles, being shakespear, and sailing the seven seas as a pirate, discovering new lands and all that. Where did he find the time? Maybe he is the original wandering immortal Jew?

:jesus-doh:

[Provoker]

Where do people come up with this stuff? Sheesh. According to the conspiracy theorists, Bacon ghost wrote Shakespear's plays too. The guy sure was busy, writing bibles, being shakespear, and sailing the seven seas as a pirate, discovering new lands and all that. Where did he find the time? Maybe he is the original wandering immortal Jew?

:jesus-doh:
Hello Sparko:
If one only reads what is compatible with the particular preconceptions he has committed himself to, he will never know the whole story.
Surely you realize that there is nothing more illogical than the doctrines of Christianity...LOL

[Sparko]

Hello Sparko:
If one only reads what is compatible with the particular preconceptions he has committed himself to, he will never know the whole story.
Surely you realize that there is nothing more illogical than the doctrines of Christianity...LOL

Christianity makes good sense. Just not to those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

But then some (read: conspiracy theorists) take any rumor and run rampant with it. and even some Christians can mix in pagan and new age beliefs and come up with wacko stuff like bible codes and hidden messages.

[wfaber]

Great! Now we have to rummage through all Shakespeare's plays and sonnets looking for hidden messages. I have enough trouble just reading it straight through. (Jesus is coming back on Nov. 30, 2005! Pass it on!)

Do you suppose there's some connection between the names "Bacon" and "Hamlet"? (Impeach George Bush!)

(Send all your pearls to wfaber!)

(vote wfaber for T-webber of the month!)

[roddmann]

:lol:

Sure thats it....we are soooooo scared of the 'truth' of your idiotic "codes"....

Cause you are so deep and wise and spiritual....oh great sage....



And the truth is that you are full of it.....



I have encoded something in the line of symbols below...see if you can find it...


1y2o3u 4a5r6e 7a 8m9o!r?o}n




Here we go again.....yet another person claiming to be Gods "chosen one"......yes the code has been hidden these many years.....hidden from humanity until the great "bluetriangle" could finally enlighten mankind...

God specifically chose him to find and decipher the code, and then to create a website and post on debate forums.

How lucky we are to have such a gifted, inspired, chosen, wise, and spiritual sage here at TWEB....

All hail bluetriangle!!! :ahem:




That was your sign??!!!

Very questionable and weak...

How pathetic and lame...

You sound like someone who thinks getting a good parking spot at the mall is divine intervention...

I have seen a few 'signs' in my lifetime and I know a few people that have seen a few.....your 'signs' are way too weak to be labeled as such.

Give me a break dude :ahem:

Spare us you delusions of being the "chosen one"....you arent special, you arent chosen, and your codes are a bunch of baloney.

It is difficult to find meaningful content in between the pejorative ad hominem comments you've written. Remind me never to debate with you. I suspect your personal squabbles end up in breaking beer bottles and pool cues over the heads of the recalcitrant. Do you really think this style is helpful? Sorry, but it comes off as meanspirited and a complete turnoff. Near as I can tell, BT never responded in kind with acrimonious railings, so why are you so vicious in your attacks? Did this guy rape your wife or something?

[Sparko]

Great! Now we have to rummage through all Shakespeare's plays and sonnets looking for hidden messages. I have enough trouble just reading it straight through. (Jesus is coming back on Nov. 30, 2005! Pass it on!)

Do you suppose there's some connection between the names "Bacon" and "Hamlet"? (Impeach George Bush!)

(Send all your pearls to wfaber!)

(vote wfaber for T-webber of the month!)

HA! I found your secret messages! Can you decode mine? (hint (http://nickciske.com/tools/hex.php))

%59%65%73%2C%20%42%61%63%6F%6E%20%61%6E%64%20%48%
61%6D%6C%65%74%20%61%72%65%20%62%6F%74%68%20%70%6F
%72%6B%20%70%72%6F%64%75%63%74%73%20%61%6E%64%20%
61%73%20%77%65%20%6B%6E%6F%77%20%53%77%69%6E%65%20
%61%72%65%20%75%6E%63%6C%65%61%6E%20%61%6E%64%20%
64%65%6D%6F%6E%73%20%6C%69%6B%65%20%74%6F%20%70%6F
%73%73%65%73%73%20%74%68%65%6D%2E%20%54%68%65%72%
65%66%6F%72%65%20%53%69%72%20%46%72%61%6E%63%69%73
%20%42%61%63%6F%6E%20%77%61%73%20%70%6F%73%73%65%
73%73%65%64%20%62%79%20%64%65%6D%6F%6E%73%20%77%68
%6F%20%61%63%74%61%75%6C%6C%79%20%69%6E%66%6C%75%
65%6E%63%65%64%20%74%68%65%20%77%72%69%74%69%6E%67
%20%6F%66%20%74%68%65%20%62%69%62%6C%65%2E%20%53%
6F%20%77%65%20%63%61%6E%6E%6F%74%20%74%72%75%73%74
%20%61%6E%79%74%68%69%6E%67%20%74%68%65%20%62%69%
62%6C%65%20%73%61%79%73%20%61%6E%79%20%6D%6F%72%65
%2E%20%54%68%65%20%62%69%62%6C%65%20%69%73%20%6F%
66%20%74%68%65%20%64%65%76%69%6C%21%21%21%20%50%61%
73%73%20%69%74%20%6F%6E%2E%2E%2E%00

[Warcraft3]

It is difficult to find meaningful content in between the pejorative ad hominem comments you've written.

Maybe you should look deeper then.....maybe its contained in the "code" of my post :wink:

Remind me never to debate with you.

Dont ever debate with me....

I suspect your personal squabbles end up in breaking beer bottles and pool cues over the heads of the recalcitrant.

Only in person....

Do you really think this style is helpful?
Its purpose is not meant to be helpful....its meant to be mocking.

Sorry, but it comes off as meanspirited and a complete turnoff. Near as I can tell, BT never responded in kind with acrimonious railings, so why are you so vicious in your attacks?

I respond to posters who set themselves up as something they are not in this manner. They do not deserve a reasonable reply, becasue they are not reasonable themselves. No amount of arguement or evidence can sway them from their delusions of grandeur.

Did this guy rape your wife or something?

No he did not "rape my wife" or something.....and what exactly is the "something" in that question?

You make it sounds as if my POST ON AN INTERNET DEBATE FORUM is
equivalent to physically assaulting someone or equivalent to ones reaction to his wife being raped...

Please....:ahem: spare us the drama and overreaction....

[wfaber]

Yes, Bacon and Hamlet are both pork products and as we know Swine are unclean and demons like to possess them. Therefore Sir Francis Bacon was possessed by demons who actaully influenced the writing of the bible. So we cannot trust anything the bible says any more. The bible is of the devil!!! Pass it on...

I figured it was hexidecimal when I saw the letters A-F mixed with numbers. I will confess, I tried ASCII at first with the first few characters and it wasn't working.

BTW, you missed one of my hidden messages. But it's just as well you did. I might get Arnold after me.

[Krusader]

Crusader,

You know this whole Bible code heresy reminds me of that old heretic, Swedenborg, who taught that the Words of Scripture had an "internal" sense that he, Swedenborg, was now revealing to the world. Must be the same old demon at work again.

Swedenborg was a brilliant, high functioning individual. He was also a mystic and a true explorer of the inner realms. I have no doubt that the church would have labelled him a heretic, but he was an honest man, who faithfully reported his experiences.

As for the bible code, if it's from God it's not heresy.

In Christ,

BT

Swedenborg was indeed, brilliant, yet a heretic nonetheless. Swedenborg dabbled heavily in the occultic practice of spiritism, and came up with a theology declaring:

1. The Trinity is not biblical
2. Modalism is biblical
3. Belief that one is saved by faith alone in Christ is a firey flying serpent in the Church.
4. Christ comes again through the writings of Swedenborg
5. Adultery is allowable in some instances (for instance, if your wife has bad breath).
6. Men become angels when they die

You can see where Swedenborg's internal sense got him - and you are becoming just as deceived.

[Sparko]

I figured it was hexidecimal when I saw the letters A-F mixed with numbers. I will confess, I tried ASCII at first with the first few characters and it wasn't working.

BTW, you missed one of my hidden messages. But it's just as well you did. I might get Arnold after me.

ah the (Impeach George Bush)?

sorry bout that. George is my buddy.

[wfaber]

George is my buddy.
I only wish he knew how to spell V-E-T-O.

[thebluetriangle]

Roddman,

Yes, God is a mathematician. I've found three mathematical numbers, pi, Phi and e, apparently encoded in the NIV bible (pi also involves the Masoretic).The individual errors are about 1 in 1000 to 1 in 3000. However, when the three numbers are summed, something incredible happens: the combined error reduces to 1 in 5 000 000. This is not coincidence! Moreover, the verses involved are Genesis 1:1, John 1:1 and the four inscriptions on the cross.
We have both found an important physical constant, alpha (the fine structure constant) encoded, within our respective versions. Once again the error from the true value is tiny.

Now that gets my attention more. Care to demonstrate? If the odds of any verse containing that sort of encoding are more than about 1 in a thousand and its contained in Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 then I'll be forced to reconsider my position. Although that doesn't mean that my conclusion will be that the source of such a 'coincidence' is divine...


My own calculations are below, but first you need to look at the fabulous encodings of pi and e found in the Masoretic Genesis 1:1 and the Greek new Testament. Please go to

http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/First_Princs.htm

Now, if you take the absolute value of each verse (Gen 1:1 = 2701, John 1:1 = 3627) and string them together you obtain 27013627. Squaring this number gives a very good estimate of alpha, the fine structure constant. Neither e nor alpha were known when John 1:1 was written, so this is excellent evidence for intelligent design.

Inspired by the encodings of pi and e, I soon found similar encodings within the NIV. Here they are

Masoretic Gen 1:1 (a) = 2701
NIV Gen 1:1 (o) = 430
NIV John 1:1 (o) = 695
NIV Inscriptions on cross (o) = 1170 (sum of all four)

2701/430 = pi x 2, error: 1 part in 3000.

695/430 = Phi, error: 1 part in 1000

1170/430 = e, error, 1 part in 1000

None of these are as spectacular as the encodings Vernon Jenkins found, the errors in which are about 100 times smaller, although there are no powers of ten to ignore, just one simple division by two. Note also that Gen 1:1 (NIV) is the denominator in every case, which suggests design.

However, when the three numbers are summed, something spectacular does happen. Two of the estimates are slightly under and one is slightly higher, so when they are summed there should be a cancelling effect evident. I estimate that the error in the sum of the three numbers should be about five times smaller than the average of the individual errors. But the actual error is 4000 times smaller! So the cancelling effect is about 700 times better than it should be. Here are the actual figures.

Estimate pi + Phi + e = 7.477906977...
True value pi + Phi + e = 7.477908461...

So the first six digits are identical. The error here is only 1 part in 5 million. There may be a kind of signature here too. The first four digits are 7477.

Jesus (o) = 74
Christ (o) = 77

I may have found alpha too. The ordinal value of Genesis 1:2 is 1279. 1279 units form a hexagonal ring in a giant snowflake. The ring requiring 6 x snowflake 1279.

56/ (6 x 1279) = alpha, error 1 part in 500 000

Why 56? This is the ordinal value of ‘light’, the subject of Gen 1:3. So 56 represents light. Similarly, 1279 represents matter, because the subject of Gen 1:2 is the earth in a state of darkness. 6 is also man’s number and man belongs to earth.

The reason I point this out is because alpha is a measure of the streength of the interaction between photons and electrons, or, if you like, between light and matter! So you can see that the encoding of the number in that place is meaningful.

In Christ,

BT

[Provoker]

Christianity makes good sense. Just not to those who are perishing.

1 Corinthians 1:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=1&verse=18&version=31&context=verse)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

But then some (read: conspiracy theorists) take any rumor and run rampant with it. and even some Christians can mix in pagan and new age beliefs and come up with wacko stuff like bible codes and hidden messages.
With all due respect Sparko:
When apologists reach the last resort of preaching, it means that they are all done discussing...LOL
Are you not aware of the conspiracy among the chief priests and Pharisees, recorded in John 11:47-53, which when read as the story it tells, shows that the reason Jesus had to die, was to save the Jews from destruction at the hands of the Roman army.
And then there is the church conspiracy to cover up this clear passage by using "out of context" single verses from the very same passage, to teach a different, "orthodox", version.

[Warcraft3]

Roddman,

Yes, God is a mathematician. I've found three mathematical numbers, pi, Phi and e, apparently encoded in the NIV bible (pi also involves the Masoretic).The individual errors are about 1 in 1000 to 1 in 3000. However, when the three numbers are summed, something incredible happens: the combined error reduces to 1 in 5 000 000. This is not coincidence! Moreover, the verses involved are Genesis 1:1, John 1:1 and the four inscriptions on the cross.
We have both found an important physical constant, alpha (the fine structure constant) encoded, within our respective versions. Once again the error from the true value is tiny.

Now that gets my attention more. Care to demonstrate? If the odds of any verse containing that sort of encoding are more than about 1 in a thousand and its contained in Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 then I'll be forced to reconsider my position. Although that doesn't mean that my conclusion will be that the source of such a 'coincidence' is divine...


My own calculations are below, but first you need to look at the fabulous encodings of pi and e found in the Masoretic Genesis 1:1 and the Greek new Testament. Please go to

http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/First_Princs.htm

Now, if you take the absolute value of each verse (Gen 1:1 = 2701, John 1:1 = 3627) and string them together you obtain 27013627. Squaring this number gives a very good estimate of alpha, the fine structure constant. Neither e nor alpha were known when John 1:1 was written, so this is excellent evidence for intelligent design.

Inspired by the encodings of pi and e, I soon found similar encodings within the NIV. Here they are

Masoretic Gen 1:1 (a) = 2701
NIV Gen 1:1 (o) = 430
NIV John 1:1 (o) = 695
NIV Inscriptions on cross (o) = 1170 (sum of all four)

2701/430 = pi x 2, error: 1 part in 3000.

695/430 = Phi, error: 1 part in 1000

1170/430 = e, error, 1 part in 1000

None of these are as spectacular as the encodings Vernon Jenkins found, the errors in which are about 100 times smaller, although there are no powers of ten to ignore, just one simple division by two. Note also that Gen 1:1 (NIV) is the denominator in every case, which suggests design.

However, when the three numbers are summed, something spectacular does happen. Two of the estimates are slightly under and one is slightly higher, so when they are summed there should be a cancelling effect evident. I estimate that the error in the sum of the three numbers should be about five times smaller than the average of the individual errors. But the actual error is 4000 times smaller! So the cancelling effect is about 700 times better than it should be. Here are the actual figures.

Estimate pi + Phi + e = 7.477906977...
True value pi + Phi + e = 7.477908461...

So the first six digits are identical. The error here is only 1 part in 5 million. There may be a kind of signature here too. The first four digits are 7477.

Jesus (o) = 74
Christ (o) = 77

I may have found alpha too. The ordinal value of Genesis 1:2 is 1279. 1279 units form a hexagonal ring in a giant snowflake. The ring requiring 6 x snowflake 1279.

56/ (6 x 1279) = alpha, error 1 part in 500 000

Why 56? This is the ordinal value of ‘light’, the subject of Gen 1:3. So 56 represents light. Similarly, 1279 represents matter, because the subject of Gen 1:2 is the earth in a state of darkness. 6 is also man’s number and man belongs to earth.

The reason I point this out is because alpha is a measure of the streength of the interaction between photons and electrons, or, if you like, between light and matter! So you can see that the encoding of the number in that place is meaningful.

In Christ,

BT


:rofl: :lol:

:lmbo:

[Sparko]

Pie are square?

Pie are not square!

Pie are round. Cornbread are square.

[thebluetriangle]

Crusader,

Swedenborg was indeed, brilliant, yet a heretic nonetheless. Swedenborg dabbled heavily in the occultic practice of spiritism, and came up with a theology declaring:

1. The Trinity is not biblical
2. Modalism is biblical
3. Belief that one is saved by faith alone in Christ is a firey flying serpent in the Church.
4. Christ comes again through the writings of Swedenborg
5. Adultery is allowable in some instances (for instance, if your wife has bad breath).
6. Men become angels when they die

I didn't say I accepted his theology, just that he was not a fool. However, you obviously know more about him that I do, so I'm not going to defend him. I accept that some of his views may have been wrong. Isaac Newton, my own hero, was a unitarian. He also spent far more time looking for bible codes than decoding the laws of nature. Was the same mind that laid down the foundations for modern physics also capable of being deluded? Perhaps, but we should give their views careful consideration before we come to that conclusion.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Provoker,

Hello Blue T:
When king James had the bible translated into English, he gave the final translation drafts to his friend Sir Francis Bacon, to edit them into Shakespearean type English, and Bacon worked on it for a year before it was published.
During the middle ages, it was necessary to communicate politicly incorrect opinions in codes and allegory, to stay out of prison, and encryption became a European fad. Every European court had it's own diplomatic cypher expert.
Bacon was a master of the art, and it became his hobby to encrypt secret words and symbols in his writings, and he is believed to have encrypted secret words in the KJV bible. Most later English translations were still written with Bacon's standard KJV sentence structure.
Just a little something to think about:-)


That's very interesting. I didn't know that. Thanks for passing it on. I understand that some of Shakespeare's sonnets are encrypted, in the same manner.

This would not affect the code in the NIV, however, because it is critically dependant upon wording, not just the overall structure. For instance.

NIV Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (o) = 430

KJV Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (o) = 411

Replacing the word 'heaven' with 'heavens' has added 19 points to the ordinal value.

The code is a modern phenomenon, and must have been laid down in and around the 1970s, when the NIV was created. Since this was the work of about 100 people, organised into committees and sub-committees, each chunk of translation going through numerous drafts, etc, I can't see how the code could have been the result of human intent. That is why I hypothesise that a higher power must have been at work.

I think a process of evolution is also evident. I showed earlier that the sum of the three chapter and verse numbers where the name 'Immanuel' is given sum to 925, the absolute value of 'Jesus Christ'. This must have been encoded in the middle ages.

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

wfaber

Great! Now we have to rummage through all Shakespeare's plays and sonnets looking for hidden messages. I have enough trouble just reading it straight through. (Jesus is coming back on Nov. 30, 2005! Pass it on!)

Do you suppose there's some connection between the names "Bacon" and "Hamlet"? (I

Very funny!

You don't have to rummage through Shakespeare - it's already been done. See

http://www.light-of-truth.com/



In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Steadele,

Quote: Originally posted by steadele

Sure thats it....we are soooooo scared of the 'truth' of your idiotic "codes"....
Cause you are so deep and wise and spiritual....oh great sage....
And the truth is that you are full of it.....
I have encoded something in the line of symbols below...see if you can find it...
1y2o3u 4a5r6e 7a 8m9o!r?o}n
Here we go again.....yet another person claiming to be Gods "chosen one"......yes the code has been hidden these many years.....hidden from humanity until the great "bluetriangle" could finally enlighten mankind...

God specifically chose him to find and decipher the code, and then to create a website and post on debate forums.
How lucky we are to have such a gifted, inspired, chosen, wise, and spiritual sage here at TWEB....
All hail bluetriangle!!!

That was your sign??!!!
Very questionable and weak...
How pathetic and lame...
You sound like someone who thinks getting a good parking spot at the mall is divine intervention...
I have seen a few 'signs' in my lifetime and I know a few people that have seen a few.....your 'signs' are way too weak to be labeled as such.
Give me a break dude
Spare us you delusions of being the "chosen one"....you arent special, you arent chosen, and your codes are a bunch of baloney.


Hey, I'm really getting to you, aren't I?

You know, people who attack so viciously usually have something they feel they must defend. What are you defending Steadele, Christian Orthodoxy? If it's true, it needs no defence.

Or are you just pouring out your hatefulness on someone you feel deserves it? If so, I suggest you may have some unresolved anger to deal with. If I'm deluded I need help, not a load of bile.

What signs did you receive? I'm interested. I won't belittle them either. Something so wonderful should never be belittled.

In Christ,

BT

[Provoker]

...where the name 'Immanuel' is given sum to 925...
Hello Blue T.
There is one more thing I would like to offer; "Immanuel" is not a name, but is the statement; "God is with us". This statement was the message(name) of the sign, that Isaiah's son, Mahershalelhashbaz, represented to king Ahaz, In Isaiah 7.
Jesus was never known as Immanuel, or Emmanuel, and his connection with the "statement", is based on a misinterpretation of the Isaiah 7 passage.
Of course, there is no reason why "God is with us" could not be encoded in the bible...LOL

[thebluetriangle]

Provoker,

Hello Blue T.
There is one more thing I would like to offer; "Immanuel" is not a name, but is the statement; "God is with us". This statement was the message(name) of the sign, that Isaiah's son, Mahershalelhashbaz, represented to king Ahaz, In Isaiah 7.
Jesus was never known as Immanuel, or Emmanuel, and his connection with the "statement", is based on a misinterpretation of the Isaiah 7 passage.
Of course, there is no reason why "God is with us" could not be encoded in the bible...LOL

Matthew 1:23 clearly equates them.

"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."

You may be right about the misinterpretation, but they now mean the same to Christians. 'Immanuel' is a synonym for 'Jesus Christ'.

The names 'Jesus Christ' and 'Immanuel' also embody a compound Star of David which serves as a visual metaphor for Christ. I'm going to put it up on the website so you can see it. It will be at

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/jesuschrist.html

in about an hour.

In Christ,

BT

[Sparko]

wfaber

Great! Now we have to rummage through all Shakespeare's plays and sonnets looking for hidden messages. I have enough trouble just reading it straight through. (Jesus is coming back on Nov. 30, 2005! Pass it on!)

Do you suppose there's some connection between the names "Bacon" and "Hamlet"? (I

Very funny!

You don't have to rummage through Shakespeare - it's already been done. See

http://www.light-of-truth.com/



In Christ,

BT

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is so obviously forced. They even had to move the "stops" to get the shapes they wanted.

[Provoker]

If I'm deluded I need help, not a load of bile
Hello Blue T.
Very well spoken!
In civil discussion, we should at least respect another's beliefs, to the extent that we respect the boss's belief that his wife is beautiful, and his children smart.
In any case, "you", at least, have some who are not afraid to discuss with you:-)
I am inclined to stay away from even the suggestion that there are bible codes, because it is my opinion that orthodoxy it'self is falsely based on imagined bible codes, because the story which runs with continuity right through the bible(the greater context), does not support Christian orthodoxy.
I don't discount the possibility of bible codes, I simply think that the undeniably plain and clear story which runs through the bible, and has been completely missed by those who cannot see, is so clear that it is obviously the message of the bible.
If there really are bible codes, then I would think that they are more likely to be understood in the context of the real story of the bible, than in the context of the story established by the universal church of the Roman empire.
What do you think?

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Provoker,

I don't discount the possibility of bible codes, I simply think that the undeniably plain and clear story which runs through the bible, and has been completely missed by those who cannot see, is so clear that it is obviously the message of the bible.
If there really are bible codes, then I would think that they are more likely to be understood in the context of the real story of the bible, than in the context of the story established by the universal church of the Roman empire.

I can't discuss this with you until I know what you're talking about. Could you possibly summarise what you mean by "the real story of bible"? Or could you put a link to a website that discusses it?

Thanks,

BT

[James Peter]

Hey Provoker I've seen comments like that from you a few times now, would you mind elaborating on them a little for me? Not here but in a new thread perhaps? I'd agree that a lot of 'orthodox' (with a small o) christianity is messed up, I'm just curious to know what your specific criticisms are...

[Provoker]

Hello Blue T. and James Peter:
The short, short, answer:
Reading the bible without injecting doctrinal preconceptions, the story appears to be; The rise, the fall, and preparations for the resurrection of the covenant nation of Israel.
The covenant nation of Israel ceased to exist at the end of Solomon's reign, when it split into two enemy nations(Israel ceased to love God and love one another). The two enemy nations went down to destruction without repenting.
During the Babylonian captivity, a prophesy was made that a messiah would come and resurrect the kingdom of his father David(covenant Israel), and messianic Judaism began.
When the captivity ended and some of the Jews "returned" to Persian ruled Judea, they were allowed to rule themselves just as if it was their kingdom, so they lost interest in resurrecting the kingdom(even though it was part of their teaching).
John the baptist, and Jesus, came proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, which was essentially a reiteration of the messianic prophesy of 500+ years earlier.
The Jerusalem Jews, led by the Pharisees, were the lost sheep of the house of Israel, because they had backslidden from the messianic goal of Judaism. Jesus came to bring them back into the fold.
John and Jesus were not the first. At least 4 other prophets had been sent from Babylon(the seat of Judaism after the captivity ended) to remind the Jerusalem Jews of the coming kingdom, and as Jesus lamented, they had all been killed by Jerusalem.
Those who have accepted the gospel of the kingdom, watch, wait, and prepare, with circumcised hearts, for the coming of the messiah, who will lead them(spiritual Israel/the body of Christ) to possession of the promised land(resurrection of covenant Israel from the dead), and resurrection of David's kingdom, which has been vacant since Solomon's death.
The only thing which is keeping the messiah from coming, is that spiritual Israel(the body of Christ) has not yet reached the numbers which will make it viable as a nation/kingdom.
Although the orthodox church believes it is spiritual Israel/the body of Christ, it is definitely not interested in the coming kingdom of Israel, because the church expects to be long gone to heaven before it happens.
There is no diffence between Jew and Gentile, and whosoever will become spiritual Israel(True Jews), will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, into literal, covenant Israel, resurrected from the dead. The final trump will indicate that the battle has been won, and the promised land has been possessed.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Provoker,

Thanks for your summary of your reading of the Bible.

I have to say a lot of it makes sense to me. You say

John and Jesus were not the first. At least 4 other prophets had been sent from Babylon(the seat of Judaism after the captivity ended) to remind the Jerusalem Jews of the coming kingdom, and as Jesus lamented, they had all been killed by Jerusalem.

Are you asserting that Jesus and John were from Babylon, that they were missionaries or emmissaries from there, and that this was the centre of Judaism in the first century? I'm not against the notion. I've just never heard it before.

What do you think of the theory that Jesus was a member of the Essene community? Sayings similar to those found in the Bible are found in the Dead Sea scrolls. For the Essenes, the phrase 'turning water into wine' meant taking an outsider and converting him to their beliefs. This story then found its way into the gospels, but was never meant to be taken literally.

I have to say I have a lot of trouble with the literalism of the average Christian. It didn't fool me when I was a boy and it doesn't fool me now. Yet, I know there is something real there. Discerning the real story of the gospels, and the Bible itself, has become something of a passion for me.

I have a couple of questions for you.

Do you think that Jesus was and is the Messiah, or simply another prophet?
Of what do you think the coming of the Messiah will consist?

In Christ,

BT

[Provoker]

Hi Provoker,

Thanks for your summary of your reading of the Bible.

I have to say a lot of it makes sense to me. You say

John and Jesus were not the first. At least 4 other prophets had been sent from Babylon(the seat of Judaism after the captivity ended) to remind the Jerusalem Jews of the coming kingdom, and as Jesus lamented, they had all been killed by Jerusalem.

Are you asserting that Jesus and John were from Babylon, that they were missionaries or emmissaries from there, and that this was the centre of Judaism in the first century? I'm not against the notion. I've just never heard it before.

What do you think of the theory that Jesus was a member of the Essene community? Sayings similar to those found in the Bible are found in the Dead Sea scrolls. For the Essenes, the phrase 'turning water into wine' meant taking an outsider and converting him to their beliefs. This story then found its way into the gospels, but was never meant to be taken literally.

I have to say I have a lot of trouble with the literalism of the average Christian. It didn't fool me when I was a boy and it doesn't fool me now. Yet, I know there is something real there. Discerning the real story of the gospels, and the Bible itself, has become something of a passion for me.

I have a couple of questions for you.

Do you think that Jesus was and is the Messiah, or simply another prophet?
Of what do you think the coming of the Messiah will consist?

In Christ,

BT
Hello Blue T:
Judaism began in Babylon, and Babylon was the original seat of "True" Judaism. It was a relatively small group of Jews who "returned" to Judea(20-30,000) after the captivity ended, and Babylon remained the seat of "True" Judaism for a couple hundred years, but the nominal/false Judaism of the backslidden Jerusalem Jews, along with the rebuilt temple, made Jerusalem the new seat of Judaism(albeit false Judaism), and Babylonian Judaism just sort of disappeared from history. The only Judean Jews who remained true to fundamental Judaism, were the Jews who remained zealous for the kingdom(Zealots). They were the Jews Jesus was refering to, who did not need a physician, so Jesus did not seek to evangelize the Zealots, and we know that one of the 12 had the Zealot nickname of "Zealotes", and the rest of the 12, except for Judas Iscariot, were Galileans, and Galilee is known to have been a hotbed of Anti-Roman, kingdom Zealots.
I don't know enough about the Jewish community in first century Babylon, to have an opinion about John and Jesus having been sent from there.
I think that Jesus was open to the possibility that he might become the messiah, but he was also aware that he would probably end up dead, like the four prophets from Babylon, and John the baptist.
After the execution of Jesus, the Zealot rebellion increased, and Rome attempted to suppress the kingdom zealots by introducing the doctrine that the dead Jesus was the king the Jews had been waiting for, and that the coming kingdom was now here, but it was a spiritual kingdom. However, it didn't work any better than Rome's earlier attempt, when Herod was made the king of the Jews, and rebuild the temple.
The High priest(a minion of Rome), hired Saul to seek out and kill, or imprison, Christians, but Paul, being a Pharisee, recognized the messianic message of true Judaism, and he capitulated to the other side.
The rebellion turned into the Jewish wars, and brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the scattering of the Jews, and the "True Judaism(Christian)" assembly going underground, with it's new headquarters in Rome it'self.
Underground Christianity became so fractured, and poluted with pagan doctrines by the 4th century, that Constantine was forced to bring it "in from the cold" and legitimize it, so that he could control the civil unrest caused by the fighting between Christian sects.
The creed established at the 1st ecumenical council of Nicea(325AD), was decided by a very close vote, after the great majority of biscops had been removed from the council for unruly behaviour.
Constantine himself was a worshipper of the sun god, Sol Invictus, and we see his influence in the fact that Jesus birthday came to be celebrated 3 days after the winter solstice(the death and resurrection of the sun), and the sabbath came to be celebrated on the venerable day of the sun("Sun"day).
Easter was a feast day to celebrate the goddess Astarte, and Jesus was established as the virgin born, dying-rising, god-man, saviour, which was the most common doctrine in the pagan religions of the empire.
Christianity became the ultimate "Universal" religion by containing elements from all the religions of the empire, which were to become illegal.
The coming messiah, who will resurrect the Davidic kingdom on the land between the Euphrates and the Nile, will simply be the military leader of the "true Jews(Christians)", when their numbers reach the point where they can take and hold the land.
The coming messiah cannot be God in the flesh, because by the very terms of the everlasting(old) covenant between the united children of Israel and God, God cannot provide national aid to Israel while the covenant is in a broken condition. In other words, those who comprise "Israel"-in-spirit, must resurrect covenant Israel from the dead(to repentance), without the help of God, before God can again turn His face back, and can continue His everlasting plan to bless all the people's of the earth, through the influence of resurrected Israel's national greatness, achieved by loving God, and loving one another.
Of course, this is not a message from God...LOL, but simply my honest opinion as an unbiased bible scholar. What do you think???

[Sparko]

The coming messiah cannot be God in the flesh, because by the very terms of the everlasting(old) covenant between the united children of Israel and God, God cannot provide national aid to Israel while the covenant is in a broken condition. In other words, those who comprise "Israel"-in-spirit, must resurrect covenant Israel from the dead(to repentance), without the help of God, before God can again turn His face back, and can continue His everlasting plan to bless all the people's of the earth, through the influence of resurrected Israel's national greatness, achieved by loving God, and loving one another.
Of course, this is not a message from God...LOL, but simply my honest opinion as an unbiased bible scholar. What do you think???

Actually in

Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.


This verse is about the coming messiah and it clearly says he will be GOD

And if you understand the concept of a Kinsmen Redeemer from the OT, you will understand that the Messiah has to be human also. The messiah has to be both God and Man.

sorry to be giving all this in plain text and not secret bible code. :wink:

[wfaber]

Hidden messages? What hidden messages?

[Provoker]

Actually in

Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.


This verse is about the coming messiah and it clearly says he will be GOD

And if you understand the concept of a Kinsmen Redeemer from the OT, you will understand that the Messiah has to be human also. The messiah has to be both God and Man.

sorry to be giving all this in plain text and not secret bible code. :wink:
Hello Sparko:
I admit that the verses you quoted appear to say what you imply, however, the wording is a bit ambiguous, and "Here is your God" may simply be a reference to the source of the prophesy, but in any case it is simply a single passage which, if taken as you interpret it, denies all the pages of scripture refering to God's everlasting(old) covenant with Israel.
If you would determine for yourself whether or not God's covenant with Israel is everlasting, and then determine for yourself what the terms of the everlasting(old) covenant require of Israel, and of God, it will go a long way to understanding why I have come to the conclusions I have. It appears to me that a holy and just God has legally obliged Himeslf to refuse His assistance to Israel, until such time as it repents, but the big problem is that covenant national Israel does not exist, and has not since the death of Solomon.
Since the covenant is everlasting, and God accepts repentance, then the covenant would appear to be simply waiting for Israel to repent, so that it can continue. Repentance for national Israel, will certainly require national Israel to exist, and that would appear to be the reason that there is an "Israel in spirit(spiritual Israel/body of the Christ)", building it's numbers by converting people to the good news of the kingdom, so that it can take back and hold the land between the Euphrates and the Nile, thus resurrecting covenant Israel from the dead...to repentance.
If one considers the greater context of the bible story, and not simply make doctrine from convenient single verses(which have been doctrinally interpreted for paraphrasing in a new language), he will recognize that he must deal with the situations that existed, before he can simply move on and establish conflicting doctrines. New doctrines cannot conflict with the continuity of the greater story of the bible, and that is why context, and not single verses, will always be the key to interpreting scripture. You know, the bible was written in context, but it was not written in verses...LOL
I also don't put a lot of stock in bible codes, because scripture was written in known languages, and if it was written by honest authors, or an honest author who cannot lie, then it bears an implicit guarantee that it can be completely understood according to the common rules of those known languages, and the context of the continuous story that it tells.
It is my opinion that the innocent division of scripture into verses, has inadvertently separated a lot of scripture from it's true context, which is the whole story.
What do you think?

[thebluetriangle]

Sparko and wfaber...

Sparko (o) = 80 = Beelzebub (o)

wfaber (o) = 55 = Satan (o)

Now I see why you're being so...adversarial.

BT

[Sparko]

Sparko and wfaber...

Sparko (o) = 80 = Beelzebub (o)

wfaber (o) = 55 = Satan (o)

Now I see why you're being so...adversarial.

BT


AAAAAEEEEEIIIIEEEEEE!!!!!

He has found us out wfaber!!! We are the devil. Or at least Wfaber is. I am merely Beelzebub.

You can call me Bubba for short.


Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what’s puzzling you
Is the nature of my game.


:lolo:

[wfaber]

Sparko and wfaber...

Sparko (o) = 80 = Beelzebub (o)

wfaber (o) = 55 = Satan (o)

Now I see why you're being so...adversarial.

BT
Hey Bubba, I think he blew our cover.
Maybe I shouldn't have changed the spelling of my screen name.

[Sparko]

Hey Bubba, I think he blew our cover.
Maybe I shouldn't have changed the spelling of my screen name.

I think it is hilarious that he has multiple "codes" that he uses so he can get the exact result he wants. If one code doesn't work, invent another!

In post #15 he said:

"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666." = 1151
Beelzebub = 1151

"let him calculate the number of the beast," = 352
Satan = 352


I wonder what happens if they overlap and something like "Holy God" in one code = "Satan" in another code, for example?


Evily Yours,

Bubba.

--
PS, Da Blonde already has me as a member of the Axis of Evil, and now I find out I am the devil himself. I am moving down in the world.

:b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil:

[Krusader]

I think it is hilarious that he has multiple "codes" that he uses so he can get the exact result he wants. If one code doesn't work, invent another!

In post #15 he said:



I wonder what happens if they overlap and something like "Holy God" in one code = "Satan" in another code, for example?


Evily Yours,

Bubba.

--
PS, Da Blonde already has me as a member of the Axis of Evil, and now I find out I am the devil himself. I am moving down in the world.

:b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil::b_evil:


I knew there was something different about you!

[James Peter]

So, just out of interest, what is the deep mystery revealed encoded in my name 'James Peter'? I'm feeling a little left out :wink:

[Sparko]

I knew there was something different about you!

I might have forgotten to shower today. sorry.

[Krusader]

I might have forgotten to shower today. sorry.

Oh, okay Bubba, it must be the sulphur smell. I can't waite until he discovers that CRUSADER really stands for 120=678=470+2C.

[thebluetriangle]

Hi James Peter,

You're one of the good guys...

James Peter (o) = 112

Yahweh Elohim (in Hebrew gematria) = 112


Here's something for the sceptics to ponder (discovered by Vernon Jenkins and coworkers). The Hebrew word transliterated as Elohim has five characters. I've transliterated them below along with their numerical value.

Aleph (= 1), Lamedh (= 30), He (= 5), Yodh (= 10), Mem (= 40)

So the gematria of Elohim = 1 + 30 + 5 + 10 + 40 = 86

Now, splitting these into three groups of three, beginning on the first three characters, we have:

1 + 30 + 5 = 36
30 + 5 + 10 = 45
5 + 10 + 40 = 55

36, 45 and 55 are the 8th, 9th and 10th triangular numbers. They sum to 136, which is the 16th triangular number and their order numbers (8, 9, 10) sum to 27, the cube of 3. Finally, Elohim is the third word in the Masoretic Hebrew bible.

Now, if we turn our attentions to the Hebrew word transliterated as Yahweh, numerated thus:

Yodh (= 10), He (= 5), Vav (= 6), He (= 5).

we find that the sum of characters 1, 1+2, 1+2+3 gives us a similar result.

10 = 4th triangular number
10 + 5 = 15, 5th triangular number
10 + 5 + 6 = 21, 6th triangular number.

Stringing Yahweh Elohim to gether we obtain

Yodh (= 10), He (= 5), Vav (= 6), He (= 5), Aleph (= 1), Lamedh (= 30), He (= 5), Yodh (= 10), Mem (= 40)

Taking characters 1+2+3, then 4+5+6, then 7+8+9, we obtain

10 + 5 + 6 = 21, 6th triangular number

5 + 1 + 30 = 36, 8th triangular number

5 + 10 + 40 = 55, 10th triangular number


The number three, the underlying numerical theme here, is of course the perfect numerical symbol of the Trinity.

In Christ,

BT

[Shadow Phoenix]

Sparko and wfaber...

Sparko (o) = 80 = Beelzebub (o)

wfaber (o) = 55 = Satan (o)

Now I see why you're being so...adversarial.

BT

OOOOH! I gotta see what denizen of darkness I am!

[Sparko]

Well according to the bubba code,

Blue has 5 letters that add up to

B=30 L=3 U=B E=5

We get 3000 as our number when we add all the numbers together and multiply by Pi, divide by zero and factor in the sparko constant which is the perfect circular number, (thus from God.)

If you stack Blue with Triangle (Triangle=5000) you get

3000
5000


Which is a divine rectangular matix. When we add the word Rectangular matrix (2000) you end up with

3000
5000
2000

The left hand column is clearly 352, which we know from post #15 is equal to SATAN

if you add in 453 (the code for "the") you get a total number of 498B12X which is the same as the word "moron"

Therefore bluetriangle is clearly the real Satan here. and a moron to boot.

[Sparko]

OOOOH! I gotta see what denizen of darkness I am!

I calculate Apologia = 9B20 and Nick = 23C for a complete code of

ApologiaNick=1

Which coincidently is the same number as "Smurf" and "Teaser of RumTum"

[James Peter]

You're one of the good guys...

James Peter (o) = 112

Yahweh Elohim (in Hebrew gematria) = 112

Hmm...a kind of cool coincidence. I'm still unconvinced that it is more than that though. It also seems possibly a little dubious that I'm one of the people who has been 'nice' to you in this thread and I come out as a good guy whilst those who have been more critical get negative 'meanings'.

Do you have a list somewhere of all this phrase's values? Persumably you just looked up 112 rather than testing all the options each time. I think I'll put such a list in my 'unorthodox' bookmarks folder to have some fun with next time I'm bored...

I wonder how George Bush fairs...

Oh and guys, even if you think BT is deluded or just stupid may I suggest you at least love him enough not to resort to petty insults. Even if some of its justified why not try taking the moral high ground?

[Sparko]

Hmm...a kind of cool coincidence. I'm still unconvinced that it is more than that though. It also seems possibly a little dubious that I'm one of the people who has been 'nice' to you in this thread and I come out as a good guy whilst those who have been more critical get negative 'meanings'.

Do you have a list somewhere of all this phrase's values? Persumably you just looked up 112 rather than testing all the options each time. I think I'll put such a list in my 'unorthodox' bookmarks folder to have some fun with next time I'm bored...

I wonder how George Bush fairs...

Oh and guys, even if you think BT is deluded or just stupid may I suggest you at least love him enough not to resort to petty insults. Even if some of its justified why not try taking the moral high ground?

well I dont think I insulted him other than telling him I thought his whole bible code was foolish nonsense until AFTER he called me Beelzebub. But you are right.

tbt, I am sorry I called you a moron.

[wfaber]

Well according to the bubba code,

Blue has 5 letters that add up to

B=30 L=3 U=B E=5

We get 3000 as our number when we add all the numbers together and multiply by Pi, divide by zero and factor in the sparko constant which is the perfect circular number, (thus from God.)
Wait a minute! How did you manage to get a calculator that can divide by zero? Are you making this up Bubba?

[Sparko]

Wait a minute! How did you manage to get a calculator that can divide by zero? Are you making this up Bubba?

I dont use a calculator, I use divine guidance. If you try to get a calculator to divide by zero, you get an error or undefined. Well God defines everything and defines it for me when I need it. On a case by case basis. Its a revelation :yes:

[Warcraft3]

I dont use a calculator, I use divine guidance. If you try to get a calculator to divide by zero, you get an error or undefined. Well God defines everything and defines it for me when I need it. On a case by case basis. Its a revelation :yes:
:lol:

[thebluetriangle]

Hi James Peter,

Yes, a cool coincidence, but nothing more!

Lot's of words and phrases sum to 112.

Regarding Yahweh Elohim, what do any of you think about the triangular attributes of the Hebrew words?

BT

[Sparko]

what happened to blue?

[wfaber]

what happened to blue?
He went the way of ponfyr, johnbill and BibleWheel. I think Michael Cadry is heading that way also.

They come to this and other Christian websites with some new revelation, expecting us to swallow their doctrine, and when we debate it and reject it, they cry persecution, call us demons and satan, then go off to finish their books. It's the same pattern.

[thebluetriangle]

"what happened to blue?

He went the way of ponfyr, johnbill and BibleWheel. I think Michael Cadry is heading that way also.
They come to this and other Christian websites with some new revelation, expecting us to swallow their doctrine, and when we debate it and reject it, they cry persecution, call us demons and satan, then go off to finish their books. It's the same pattern."

Wrong on every count...

1. I have never accused anyone of persecuting me. I expected the defensive reaction I got from some of you. But then some of you have worldviews to defend, and I can understand that.

2. I don't think any one of my detractors is satanic. Childish yes, demonic no. The gematria was a little fun, that's all.

3. I don't expect anyone to swallow whole my revelation. I wouldn't myself without serious investigation. I'd like to think I'd actually consider the matter though, rather than laugh it off. But then, people often mock a new idea, lest it rocks their fragile worldview.

4. The New Bible Code may be a revelation from God, but unlike most others it can be witnessed by anyone who cares to do so. It is a frozen miracle. I invite you all to scrutinise it and submit any questions that arise.

5. There is no doctrine anywhere in the New Bible Code. The code is a stunning affirmation of the existence of a higher power. It does however suggest that 9/11 was the fulfilment of many end-time prophecies.

6. I haven't gone away. I will happily engage with any questions or comments that you may wish to offer - even some of the offensive ones.

I leave you with one more thought. If the code is real and not the product of a delusional mind are you not mocking God when you rubbish the code? I'd be very careful of doing that. It's not for us to tell God how He should be operating. The fact that so many of you find the code ridiculous may be nothing more than a reflection of your own lack of faith. You don't really believe that God exists, or that he can perform miracles. Have faith: He does and He can.

God bless,

BT

[Provoker]

Hello BT:
Whether or not I agree with your code theory, I do agree with your philosophy on considering what other sincere scholars theorize.
Upon thinking about the question with which you began this thread, I have changed my mind, and I now realize that I definitely do believe in bible codes.
However, it would seem logical that a secret code inserted into a book written to reveal truth, would actually be an act of deception, and not likely something that any honest author would do. The very fact that scripture was written in known languages, implies that everything it reveals, is revealed in those known languages...if not, then the author(s) would appear to have been a deceiver, not a revealer.
It is my opinion though, that the bible has actually been encoded, inadvertently by people who were ignorant of the truth, and purposely by people who were attempting to cover up the truth.
However, if one recognizes that the bible has been encoded by poor copiests, biased translators, politicly motivated governments, censoring church fathers, etc, etc, he may think that discovering the truth is a hopeless task, but I am convinced that there is a ***key*** which is far more powerful than these codes, and can reveal the truth of the bible...in spite of the deceiving codes.
The continuity of purpose to be found in the consecutive order of scripturally recorded historical events and future events, establishes a panoramic historical model within which the details of the bible story unfold.
The key is to use the biblical panorama of past and future history, as the greater context with which to keep the interpretation of the text on track.
Is it worth considering...or is it only worth laughing off???

[Oldmonk]

The problem with working from the NIV is that it isn't an especially accurate translation. Could God layer a code in it? Theoretically, sure. Would he layer a code in english in the NIV but not in other texts? I wouldn't say it was likely.

Now a few comments on your specific examples...

Ex.1: The chief problem (beyond the fact that it involves the exact wording of the NIV being required) is that the divisions do not occur in any especially significant place - if each clause contained a word I'd be more convinced.

Ex.2: Of course Nero's full name also is '666' which is a more obvious solution. Also of relevance is that the beast isn't Satan - it simply belongs to Satan and thats very obvious from the text itself. What benefit does such a cyphertext have?

Ex.3: Why the last 9 words? (Etc) Once again the division seems to be arbitary.

Overall comment:

With the many 'significant' numbers and the ability to just cut up texts however you want its not surprising that you can come up with examples like this. I'm still firmly in the camp of the cynics.
I find that the trouble with these "Bible Code" theories is they are somewhat ad hoc. You take a code ...which infers a system of interpreting the code... Yet the Bible code doesn't seem to fit one particular system!! ie the distance between letters is not at the same distance in each instance. This doesn't seem to me fit the definition of code. I am sure if you took the time you could find messages in Shakespear, Winnie the Pooh, and a host of Dr. Suze books .

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Provoker,

"Whether or not I agree with your code theory, I do agree with your philosophy on considering what other sincere scholars theorize.
Upon thinking about the question with which you began this thread, I have changed my mind, and I now realize that I definitely do believe in bible codes."

Thankyou! Whether you think the code is divine, demonic or merely of human origin, it's good that you at least accept that it exists. Most don't, despite the evidence.

I have reason to believe the code could only have been encoded by one method: a higher power working through the unconscious minds of the NIV translators. Furthermore there are links between this code and a similar numerical code found in the Masoretic and Greek NT texts. So the same power would appear to be responsible for both. I don't think this power is hiding anything from us, it is simply revealing itself to us as we are ready to accept it. I would never have discovered the code if I had not been directly led to it. Believe me, it was simply not on my mind to do such a thing. I can only conclude that the encoder wants the code to be revealed now, at this time.

"The continuity of purpose to be found in the consecutive order of scripturally recorded historical events and future events, establishes a panoramic historical model within which the details of the bible story unfold.
The key is to use the biblical panorama of past and future history, as the greater context with which to keep the interpretation of the text on track.
Is it worth considering...or is it only worth laughing off???"

I am prepared to give your own theory serious consideration. You have explained a little about it already and I found it quite intriguing. Do you have a website?

In Christ,

BT

[Provoker]

Hello BT:
No website, but I'm always ready to discuss any bible subject in the context of my theological theory...LOL

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Oldmonk,

"I find that the trouble with these "Bible Code" theories is they are somewhat ad hoc. You take a code ...which infers a system of interpreting the code... Yet the Bible code doesn't seem to fit one particular system!! ie the distance between letters is not at the same distance in each instance. This doesn't seem to me fit the definition of code. I am sure if you took the time you could find messages in Shakespear, Winnie the Pooh, and a host of Dr. Suze books .
"

The code I have discovered (New Bible Code) has nothing to do with the equidistant letter sequence codes popularised by Drosnin, and to which I believe you are referring. The New Bible Code is based on three systems of alphabetic numeration which were originally applied to Biblical Hebrew and Greek but which I apply to modern English. When the NIV Bible is analysed using these keys, encoded numbers are revealed within significant passages. When correctly decoded, these numbers equate the theme of the plain text with biblical names, etc, that are meaningfully related to the theme. They constitute a code because these numbers should not be able to mediate such a relationship. There should be no connection between meaning and numerical value. I also find that encoded numbers form larger patterns with other such numbers and that they are often related to significant geometric objects and mathematical numbers.

For example:

The ordinal value system assigns values of A = 1 to Z = 26.
The standard value system assigns values of A = 1 to Z = 800.

The letter values are then summed to give a value for words, sentences, etc.

Ordinal value Rev 13:18 (NIV) = 1151
Standard value 'Beelzebub' = 1151

This is not an isolated incident! I have tried to find similar patterns within other books, but, whilst I do find the occasional significant number, there is no meaningful relationship with the surface words or any pattern to the phenomenon.

In Christ,

BT

[Oldmonk]

Hi Oldmonk,

"I find that the trouble with these "Bible Code" theories is they are somewhat ad hoc. You take a code ...which infers a system of interpreting the code... Yet the Bible code doesn't seem to fit one particular system!! ie the distance between letters is not at the same distance in each instance. This doesn't seem to me fit the definition of code. I am sure if you took the time you could find messages in Shakespear, Winnie the Pooh, and a host of Dr. Suze books .
"

The code I have discovered (New Bible Code) has nothing to do with the equidistant letter sequence codes popularised by Drosnin, and to which I believe you are referring. The New Bible Code is based on three systems of alphabetic numeration which were originally applied to Biblical Hebrew and Greek but which I apply to modern English. When the NIV Bible is analysed using these keys, encoded numbers are revealed within significant passages. When correctly decoded, these numbers equate the theme of the plain text with biblical names, etc, that are meaningfully related to the theme. They constitute a code because these numbers should not be able to mediate such a relationship. There should be no connection between meaning and numerical value. I also find that encoded numbers form larger patterns with other such numbers and that they are often related to significant geometric objects and mathematical numbers.

For example:

The ordinal value system assigns values of A = 1 to Z = 26.
The standard value system assigns values of A = 1 to Z = 800.

The letter values are then summed to give a value for words, sentences, etc.

Ordinal value Rev 13:18 (NIV) = 1151
Standard value 'Beelzebub' = 1151

This is not an isolated incident! I have tried to find similar patterns within other books, but, whilst I do find the occasional significant number, there is no meaningful relationship with the surface words or any pattern to the phenomenon.

In Christ,

BT
Interesting!! I know that numbers play a part in the bible... ie Moses was up on the mountain 40 days, It rained 40 days and nights in the flood, Jesus went into the deasert for 40 days etc. I also think that in some instances the music for some of the Psalms may be inbedded in the rythem of the Hebrew word patterns. I once took a patten from the book of numbers... I took the repetitions of repeatable phrases and asigned them a note... I was quite surprised when I asked a friend who knew music to play it... Whithout him knowing what I did he said it had a Jewish feel to it! However I think that we must be very cautious... and it seems that you are... in how much faith we put into some of these things.
Yes my comments were mainly directed towards the equidistant system ( or lack there of:) ) I have done a little of what you are doing but in reverse a bit. We are told in Revelation that the number of the "Beasts" name is 666 That = to the Hebrew letters Tav, Resh, Semeck, Vav ( Tav =400, Resh = 200, Semeck = 60 , and Vav = 6)
I was trying to find if these combination of letters spelt out any word in Hebrew... Havent come across anything so far:)

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Oldmonk,

"Interesting!! I know that numbers play a part in the bible... ie Moses was up on the mountain 40 days, It rained 40 days and nights in the flood, Jesus went into the deasert for 40 days etc. I also think that in some instances the music for some of the Psalms may be inbedded in the rythem of the Hebrew word patterns. I once took a patten from the book of numbers... I took the repetitions of repeatable phrases and asigned them a note... I was quite surprised when I asked a friend who knew music to play it... Whithout him knowing what I did he said it had a Jewish feel to it!"

That's fascinating. Without knowing the details of what you did it would be difficult to comment, but it sounds like another example of information bleeding through to another level. However the code I have found goes much further than that, and is obviously intelligently designed.


"However I think that we must be very cautious... and it seems that you are... in how much faith we put into some of these things."

I am indeed cautious, so much so that I recently took about two thirds of my website offline, because I didn't think the evidence I had found was strong enough. I intend to put much of it back online, once I've sifted through it.


"Yes my comments were mainly directed towards the equidistant system ( or lack there of:) ) I have done a little of what you are doing but in reverse a bit. We are told in Revelation that the number of the "Beasts" name is 666 That = to the Hebrew letters Tav, Resh, Semeck, Vav ( Tav =400, Resh = 200, Semeck = 60 , and Vav = 6)
I was trying to find if these combination of letters spelt out any word in Hebrew... Havent come across anything so far:)"

I think you would have more luck trying Greek than Hebrew. Actually, the mystery of 666 has been substantially solved by Vernon Jenkins in his website

www.theotherbiblecode.comhttp://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/index.htm

666 is a unique triangular number, the epitome of triangularity. Triangular numbers are those which can be represented as triangles made from discrete units (such as the 15 reds on a snooker table). 666 and its cubic counterpart, 216 (6 x 6 x 6) both feature in the Hebrew Bible's opening verse. This has a Hebrew gematria of 2701. This is also a triangular number, with three internal triangles of 666 units and an outline (the number of units round the perimeter) of 216 units. I strongly recommend you investigate Vernon's work.

Also, in the NIV:

"for it is man's number" (o) = 216 = 6 x 6 x 6

"let him calculate the number of the beast" (o) = 352
satan (s) = 352

Gematria is the key to wisdom!

In Christ,

BT

[Warcraft3]

Hi Oldmonk,

"Interesting!! I know that numbers play a part in the bible... ie Moses was up on the mountain 40 days, It rained 40 days and nights in the flood, Jesus went into the deasert for 40 days etc. I also think that in some instances the music for some of the Psalms may be inbedded in the rythem of the Hebrew word patterns. I once took a patten from the book of numbers... I took the repetitions of repeatable phrases and asigned them a note... I was quite surprised when I asked a friend who knew music to play it... Whithout him knowing what I did he said it had a Jewish feel to it!"

That's fascinating. Without knowing the details of what you did it would be difficult to comment, but it sounds like another example of information bleeding through to another level. However the code I have found goes much further than that, and is obviously intelligently designed.


"However I think that we must be very cautious... and it seems that you are... in how much faith we put into some of these things."

I am indeed cautious, so much so that I recently took about two thirds of my website offline, because I didn't think the evidence I had found was strong enough. I intend to put much of it back online, once I've sifted through it.


"Yes my comments were mainly directed towards the equidistant system ( or lack there of:) ) I have done a little of what you are doing but in reverse a bit. We are told in Revelation that the number of the "Beasts" name is 666 That = to the Hebrew letters Tav, Resh, Semeck, Vav ( Tav =400, Resh = 200, Semeck = 60 , and Vav = 6)
I was trying to find if these combination of letters spelt out any word in Hebrew... Havent come across anything so far:)"

I think you would have more luck trying Greek than Hebrew. Actually, the mystery of 666 has been substantially solved by Vernon Jenkins in his website

www.theotherbiblecode.comhttp://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/index.htm

666 is a unique triangular number, the epitome of triangularity. Triangular numbers are those which can be represented as triangles made from discrete units (such as the 15 reds on a snooker table). 666 and its cubic counterpart, 216 (6 x 6 x 6) both feature in the Hebrew Bible's opening verse. This has a Hebrew gematria of 2701. This is also a triangular number, with three internal triangles of 666 units and an outline (the number of units round the perimeter) of 216 units. I strongly recommend you investigate Vernon's work.

Also, in the NIV:

"for it is man's number" (o) = 216 = 6 x 6 x 6

"let him calculate the number of the beast" (o) = 352
satan (s) = 352

Gematria is the key to wisdom!

In Christ,

BT



:rofl:

:lol:

:lmbo:

[Oldmonk]

I used the Hebrew mainly because Jhon who wrote the book Revelations was Hebrew and was essentially speaking to a "Hebrew"church at that time. The gentile church was just growing at that time but would as history shows take over the church.
Actually what you are doing is what Kabbalists have been doing for a long time now. I am not talking about "modern kabbalah" which has in many respects divorced itself from the torah, with such things as astrology ,palm reading, and tarrot cards etc., but the truer form that sought to work out of torah . People like Gershom Scholem and more to the point Aryeh Kaplan show the much purer and true form of Kabbalah. It is the kabbalic belief that ,since the very early Hebrew manuscripts did not have word divisions that the Torah of today may in the future be broken up differently through higher understanding of Torah and create a better and more applicable torah. Thus they believed that each and every letter in itself had significance and a deeper meaning.I am not sure if I buy into the whole kabbalah thing but in some ways some of our Christian doctrine has some debt to kabbalistic thinking.
Keep on searching and by all means share what you have found.
In Yashua'"s Service
Oldmonk











Hi Oldmonk,

"Interesting!! I know that numbers play a part in the bible... ie Moses was up on the mountain 40 days, It rained 40 days and nights in the flood, Jesus went into the deasert for 40 days etc. I also think that in some instances the music for some of the Psalms may be inbedded in the rythem of the Hebrew word patterns. I once took a patten from the book of numbers... I took the repetitions of repeatable phrases and asigned them a note... I was quite surprised when I asked a friend who knew music to play it... Whithout him knowing what I did he said it had a Jewish feel to it!"

That's fascinating. Without knowing the details of what you did it would be difficult to comment, but it sounds like another example of information bleeding through to another level. However the code I have found goes much further than that, and is obviously intelligently designed.


"However I think that we must be very cautious... and it seems that you are... in how much faith we put into some of these things."

I am indeed cautious, so much so that I recently took about two thirds of my website offline, because I didn't think the evidence I had found was strong enough. I intend to put much of it back online, once I've sifted through it.


"Yes my comments were mainly directed towards the equidistant system ( or lack there of:) ) I have done a little of what you are doing but in reverse a bit. We are told in Revelation that the number of the "Beasts" name is 666 That = to the Hebrew letters Tav, Resh, Semeck, Vav ( Tav =400, Resh = 200, Semeck = 60 , and Vav = 6)
I was trying to find if these combination of letters spelt out any word in Hebrew... Havent come across anything so far:)"

I think you would have more luck trying Greek than Hebrew. Actually, the mystery of 666 has been substantially solved by Vernon Jenkins in his website

www.theotherbiblecode.comhttp://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/index.htm

666 is a unique triangular number, the epitome of triangularity. Triangular numbers are those which can be represented as triangles made from discrete units (such as the 15 reds on a snooker table). 666 and its cubic counterpart, 216 (6 x 6 x 6) both feature in the Hebrew Bible's opening verse. This has a Hebrew gematria of 2701. This is also a triangular number, with three internal triangles of 666 units and an outline (the number of units round the perimeter) of 216 units. I strongly recommend you investigate Vernon's work.

Also, in the NIV:

"for it is man's number" (o) = 216 = 6 x 6 x 6

"let him calculate the number of the beast" (o) = 352
satan (s) = 352

Gematria is the key to wisdom!

In Christ,

BT

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Oldmonk,

"I used the Hebrew mainly because Jhon who wrote the book Revelations was Hebrew and was essentially speaking to a "Hebrew"church at that time. The gentile church was just growing at that time but would as history shows take over the church.
Actually what you are doing is what Kabbalists have been doing for a long time now. I am not talking about "modern kabbalah" which has in many respects divorced itself from the torah, with such things as astrology ,palm reading, and tarrot cards etc., but the truer form that sought to work out of torah . People like Gershom Scholem and more to the point Aryeh Kaplan show the much purer and true form of Kabbalah. It is the kabbalic belief that ,since the very early Hebrew manuscripts did not have word divisions that the Torah of today may in the future be broken up differently through higher understanding of Torah and create a better and more applicable torah. Thus they believed that each and every letter in itself had significance and a deeper meaning.I am not sure if I buy into the whole kabbalah thing but in some ways some of our Christian doctrine has some debt to kabbalistic thinking.
Keep on searching and by all means share what you have found"

You're right about my work being very close to that of kabbalists. The Creation Snowflake was developed from a kabbalistic model of the six days of Creation, which I got from a book by Leonora Leet called, I think, "The Secret Doctrine Of The Kabbalah". I certainly don't regard myself as a kabbalist, though, except in a very broad sense.

Incidentally, the work of Stan Tenen apparently shows that every Hebrew character does indeed have deeper meaning. This may be true of other alphabets too. I sometimes think we try to constrain God within the limits of what we believe in our hearts is possible. People can't really accept that God could encode a language, when, in fact, He may have encoded every language. God isn't limited, but our own imagination is.

Thanks for the offer to share more. I will soon.

In Christ,

BT

[Oldmonk]

Hi Oldmonk,

"I used the Hebrew mainly because Jhon who wrote the book Revelations was Hebrew and was essentially speaking to a "Hebrew"church at that time. The gentile church was just growing at that time but would as history shows take over the church.
Actually what you are doing is what Kabbalists have been doing for a long time now. I am not talking about "modern kabbalah" which has in many respects divorced itself from the torah, with such things as astrology ,palm reading, and tarrot cards etc., but the truer form that sought to work out of torah . People like Gershom Scholem and more to the point Aryeh Kaplan show the much purer and true form of Kabbalah. It is the kabbalic belief that ,since the very early Hebrew manuscripts did not have word divisions that the Torah of today may in the future be broken up differently through higher understanding of Torah and create a better and more applicable torah. Thus they believed that each and every letter in itself had significance and a deeper meaning.I am not sure if I buy into the whole kabbalah thing but in some ways some of our Christian doctrine has some debt to kabbalistic thinking.
Keep on searching and by all means share what you have found"

You're right about my work being very close to that of kabbalists. The Creation Snowflake was developed from a kabbalistic model of the six days of Creation, which I got from a book by Leonora Leet called, I think, "The Secret Doctrine Of The Kabbalah". I certainly don't regard myself as a kabbalist, though, except in a very broad sense.

Incidentally, the work of Stan Tenen apparently shows that every Hebrew character does indeed have deeper meaning. This may be true of other alphabets too. I sometimes think we try to constrain God within the limits of what we believe in our hearts is possible. People can't really accept that God could encode a language, when, in fact, He may have encoded every language. God isn't limited, but our own imagination is.

Thanks for the offer to share more. I will soon.

In Christ,

BT
GREAT!!! Will look forward to it!!
Stan Tenen... never heard of the guy but will look info up on him.
"Creation Snowflake??? You meen the Kabbalic Tree of Life???

[thebluetriangle]

Hi Oldmonk,

""Creation Snowflake??? You meen the Kabbalic Tree of Life???|

The Creation Snowflake is my name for a fractal snowflake encoded within the first two verses of the NIV Bible. See

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/thecreationsnowflake.html

You might also like to see my revised page on 9/11. It's at

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/911.html

In Christ,

BT

[Oldmonk]

Hi Oldmonk,

""Creation Snowflake??? You meen the Kabbalic Tree of Life???|

The Creation Snowflake is my name for a fractal snowflake encoded within the first two verses of the NIV Bible. See

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/thecreationsnowflake.html

You might also like to see my revised page on 9/11. It's at

http://www.thenewbiblecode.co.uk/911.html

In Christ,

BT
Thanks for the links. Only scanned through but they look interesting. Will read more later when I have the time to go through them more deeply.