The Law, Moses, Paul and Christ - what a mess!

[yoki]

St. Paul talks about the Law of Moses using many different terms. He calls the Law good, he calls it a tutor, and he also calls it a curse. Paul claimed that no man could be justified by the Law with the implication being that this was so because no man could obey the Law since such a thing was impossible.

Galatians 3:
10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

Interestingly enough, Moses, who delivered the Law from God Almighty Himself, thought very differently about the Law. Moses actually taught that the Law was not too difficult to keep:
Deuteronomy 30:
10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'

Jesus seemed to have taught those things in harmony with Moses. Why was Paul so different in his teachings?

Matthew 5:
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus' teachings were quite clear. However, it seems that contemporary Christian understanding of Jesus' teachings in the above passage means that when Jesus said "to fulfill," He really meant "abolish." But surely Jesus was specific enough to show that that was not what he meant.

The odd man out here is Paul. Who do we follow? - Moses/Jesus, or, Paul?

[yoki]

Should I have posted this topic on another board? Anyone?

[commonman]

The odd man out here is Paul. Who do we follow? - Moses/Jesus, or, Paul?

Paul is in complete agreement with Jesus and Moses.

Moses delivered the third law.

The first law was a natural law as it was given to Adam.
The second law was given to Noah.
The third law was given to Moses (Levitical Law).
In all three cases, the law pointed to Jesus (the Letter to the Hebrews talks a lot about this concept)
The Levitical Law, with its system of priestly duties, sacrifices and times set aside for the Lord (sabbaths included), all paint a picture of the fulfillment or completion of the Law through God's Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, Jesus is the perfect High Priest, Jesus is the only High Priest that is at rest.

Moses revealed the Law which was a shadow of things to come, Jesus filfilled or completed the Law so that it no longer was a shadow of things to come, but the completed Law of Liberty, and Paul described that Law of Liberty by chastising those that remained legalistic (works-based salvation) and praising those past and present that became like Christ, a sacrifice to God by faith.

[yoki]

Paul is in complete agreement with Jesus and Moses.

Moses delivered the third law.

The first law was a natural law as it was given to Adam.
The second law was given to Noah.
The third law was given to Moses (Levitical Law).
In all three cases, the law pointed to Jesus (the Letter to the Hebrews talks a lot about this concept)
The Levitical Law, with its system of priestly duties, sacrifices and times set aside for the Lord (sabbaths included), all paint a picture of the fulfillment or completion of the Law through God's Messiah, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, Jesus is the perfect High Priest, Jesus is the only High Priest that is at rest.

Moses revealed the Law which was a shadow of things to come, Jesus filfilled or completed the Law so that it no longer was a shadow of things to come, but the completed Law of Liberty, and Paul described that Law of Liberty by chastising those that remained legalistic (works-based salvation) and praising those past and present that became like Christ, a sacrifice to God by faith.


I do thank you for your response. However, it appears to me that your interpretation of scripture is through the "revelation" of St. Paul, rather than taking scripture as saying what it is saying.

I am a very simple man who sees things in a very simple way. Therefore, let me ask you this:
When Moses said these words: "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Was he speaking the truth?

[apostoli]

Hi Yoki,

If I may intrude and make a quick response to your reply to Commonman...

it appears to me that [commonman's] interpretation of scripture is through the "revelation" of St. Paul, rather than taking scripture as saying what it is saying.In Galatians 3:10 (which you quote) A.Paul quotes Moses (Deut 27:26) which says "A Curse upon any man who dares not fulfill this law by doing all that it proscribes" (NEB). Then in Gal 3:11, A.Paul alludes to Habakkuk 2:4 and in Gal 3:12 to Leviticus 18:5. To my mind A.Paul's teaching is very much in alignment with Jesus (consider Mat 5:1-7:29 where Jesus teaches the spirit of the Law as opposed to the letter of the Law). The Rabbis/Pharisees/Scribes had extended the simple commandments of the Torah into something that no man could do. Malachi says (3:7-9) "Even from the days of your fathers you have gone away from my ordinances and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return until you, says the Lord of hosts. But you say: In what way shall we return?...You are cursed with a curse..."

I am a very simple man who sees things in a very simple way. Therefore, let me ask you this:
When Moses said these words: "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Was he speaking the truth?Indeed he was but Israel interfered with the commands, adding their own prescriptions.

Jesus' teachings were quite clear. However, it seems that contemporary Christian understanding of Jesus' teachings in the above passage means that when Jesus said "to fulfill," He really meant "abolish." But surely Jesus was specific enough to show that, that was not what he meant. The odd man out here is Paul. Who do we follow? - Moses/Jesus, or, Paul?To my mind Mat5-7, clarifies things a bit. Here Jesus teaches not the letter of the law but the spirit. Compare what A.Paul has to say at Galatians 3:5.

One scripture to contemplate is Lev 18:3. Consider: Are we bound by the ordinances given to the Egyptian exiles or by those given to Adam, Noah & Abraham? According to Leviticus 27:34 "These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel." In both Christian and Jewish tradition, gentiles have never been subject to the Mosiac laws only the Noahic. Another thought: The Jews have not been able to perform lawful sacrifices since the end of the end of the Aaronic priesthood. So even the Jew is reduced to obeying only the moral law by which all mankind is bound (eg: 10 commandments, but we do so in faith, not by the letter ie: Matt 19:16-22).

Some Jews raise works in the Law as their focus for salvation, other Jews focus on their faith in the entire promise of the Torah (the promise of redemption) and look for the coming of their Messiah, who will lead them back to God. A.Paul in Galatians reveals that, that Messiah has come as promised, and we have been released from the yoke. Consider Galatians 3:23-25.

The Jews were cursed by adhering to the letter of the Law; whereas we are saved because we adhere to the spirit of the law=faith.

Here is a link that I found of interest
The Torah of God Road Back or Road Block A Look at Law in Judaism and Christianity
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/6_2/torahofgod

[commonman]

I do thank you for your response. However, it appears to me that your interpretation of scripture is through the "revelation" of St. Paul, rather than taking scripture as saying what it is saying.

I am a very simple man who sees things in a very simple way. Therefore, let me ask you this:
When Moses said these words: "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Was he speaking the truth?

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

It is time to stop thinking simply, like a child, looking for principles for attaining eternal life (see John 5:39) in the scriptures. All of scripture reveals Jesus Christ, there is nothing else there. You and how all this Bible stuff applies to you is thinking like a child. Live the life that is in you, Jesus Christ, and you will see that that the Law has but one purpose, to convict you. If you don't believe me, study the Sabbath laws, then attempt for one sabbath day to abide by them. I think you will find that it is not possible, for even your heart beats, working despite the prohibition against work.

Moses, Jesus, and Paul all say the same thing about this: Love God and Love your neighbor. To love is to give up your life for the one you love. Jesus said we must follow Him. Where did He go? The cross, He died, and so must you. Paul called this becoming a living sacrifice. Your very heartbeat must not even be your concern, for it is Christ's.

To my knowledge, no one has ever broken any of God's laws when he followed these two. How could you by dying to self and becoming Christ's do anything other than the Father's will.

[Provoker]

The odd man out here is Paul. Who do we follow? - Moses/Jesus, or, Paul?
Hello Yoki:
The law which was given to Moses, was the national law of covenant Israel, and it ceased to be the law when national Israel ceased to exist by splitting into two enemy nations at the end of Solomon's reign. No nation...no national law. After that the Jews were ultimately under the national law of whatever nation ruled them.
When the Jews received the prophesy that a messiah would resurrect the Davidic kingdom, they began to ritually practice the redundant laws and traditions of the old kingdom, so that they would be prepared when the kingdom was resurrected.
After a few generations, the rituals and traditions were well intrenched, but the Jews had lost faith in the resurrection of the kingdom, so the practice rituals and traditions became a stumbling block to their re-acceptance of the good news that the kingdom is coming.
Jesus was not against the ritual keeping of the redundant law, because he also expected the nation/kingdom of Israel to be resurrected soon.
When Paul discovered that Judaising Jews were telling his gentile converts to keep the law, Paul explained to his gentile converts, that one is not a Jew because he keeps redundant laws, rituals and traditions, but that to be a "True" Jew, one only has to have a circumcised heart.
Remember that circumcision of the flesh was the sign that one had committed to living within the law, within the covenant nation of Israel.
By extension, circumcision of the heart is the sign that one is committed to living within the law, within the covenant nation/kingdom of Israel, ***when the covenant nation/kingdom of Israel is resurrected from the dead by the coming messiah***.
What do you think?

[John from Ebla]

Hello Yoki:
The law which was given to Moses, was the national law of covenant Israel, and it ceased to be the law when national Israel ceased to exist by splitting into two enemy nations at the end of Solomon's reign. No nation...no national law. After that the Jews were ultimately under the national law of whatever nation ruled them.
When the Jews received the prophesy that a messiah would resurrect the Davidic kingdom, they began to ritually practice the redundant laws and traditions of the old kingdom, so that they would be prepared when the kingdom was resurrected.
After a few generations, the rituals and traditions were well intrenched, but the Jews had lost faith in the resurrection of the kingdom, so the practice rituals and traditions became a stumbling block to their re-acceptance of the good news that the kingdom is coming.
Jesus was not against the ritual keeping of the redundant law, because he also expected the nation/kingdom of Israel to be resurrected soon.
When Paul discovered that Judaising Jews were telling his gentile converts to keep the law, Paul explained to his gentile converts, that one is not a Jew because he keeps redundant laws, rituals and traditions, but that to be a "True" Jew, one only has to have a circumcised heart.
Remember that circumcision of the flesh was the sign that one had committed to living within the law, within the covenant nation of Israel.
By extension, circumcision of the heart is the sign that one is committed to living within the law, within the covenant nation/kingdom of Israel, ***when the covenant nation/kingdom of Israel is resurrected from the dead by the coming messiah***.
What do you think?

Can you tell me where you read this because l cannot find it the New testament. Is this another one of your stories?

Kind Regards
john From Ebla

[Provoker]

Can you tell me where you read this because l cannot find it the New testament.

Hello John:
I believe that Paul's explanation of the difference between a false Jew and a true Jew, is found in the book of Romans.