Understanding the "Lord and Lady" - Pagan Roots or Wicca Fertility Tradition?

[Richbee]

Handfasting of the Lord and Lady

written for Imbolc 1997

by Terri Roessler

The Lord and Lady stood before the Celestial Altar,
Facing the High Priestess, who was seen but not seen,
heard but not heard,
the stars were Her gown, a nebula was Her cloak, and the Milky Way Her headdress,
swirling around Her head.

The Lord and Lady, were smiling shyly, for this was Imbolc,
The Sacred day,
The Joyous day,
The day that They would become one.

Around them in the circle
Stood Their children.
Witnessing Their wedding day.
Men, Women and Children,
Birds and Beasts,
Creatures imagined, and some unimagined,
Spirits and Angels,
Creatures of the Land and of the Sea,
The Fey in their multitude of Form,
And creatures of the Otherworld.
All happy to witness the handfasting of their Lord and Lady.

Continued... - eCauldr (http://www.ecauldron.com/imbolcpoem.php)on - The Cauldron (http://www.ecauldron.com/imbolcpoem.php)

Lord and Lady? What can we know and the "Lord and Lady" objectively, and is there a historical source or beginning here? Is this unique to the Celtic tradition, or common across many cultures and throughout all recorded time?

Note, some basic foundational understandings must exist before rational, thoughtful discussion can begin, such as defining of terms or titles or names. One can hope that an objective source can help to answer inquirying questions for some, but not all thread visitors.

Footnote: Wicca is a nature-oriented (but not nature-worshipping) Pagan religion which originated in the mid-20th century, incorporating elements of traditional witchcraft (folk magic) and the teachings of Gerald Gardner. In its original form, which is still practiced, Wicca is an oathbound fertility religion which reveres both male and female deities and whose mysteries (truths that can only be communicated by direct experience) are transmitted by initiation.

eCauldron: Wicca Index (http://www.ecauldron.com/wiccaindex.php)

Please obey our copyright rules. Only two paragraphs may be posted from copyrighted sources

[technomage]

Richbee, nobody's interested in your little games.

[Richbee]

Can early English Literature or Gaelic or Celtic stories help us here in our inquiry? Where can wisdom seekers find common appreciation and mutual understanding?

THE EXALTED ONE: …woman of wisdom…a goddess whom poets adored.

— Cormac’s Glossary

It is tempting to view this tender goddess of the early Spring only as she is pictured in Scottish artist John Duncan’s famous picture, The Coming of Bride: a wide-eyed, golden-haired girl, encircled by children. But behind her girlish innocence is the power of a once-great ancestral deity, Brigid, whose name means “The Exalted One,” queen and mother goddess of many European tribes. She is also known as Brigid, Bridget, Brighid, Brighde, Brig [fertility goddess] or Bride and some scholars consider her name originated with the Vedic Sanskrit word brihati, an epithet of the divine.

The 10th century Cormac’s Glossary describes her as the daughter of the Daghda, the “Great God” of the Tuatha de Danaan. He calls her a “woman of wisdom…a goddess whom poets adored, because her protection was very great and very famous." Since the discipline of poetry, filidhect, was interwoven with seership, Brigid was seen as the great inspiration behind divination and prophecy, the source of oracles.

See Celtic Spirit.org (www.celticspirit.org/imbolc.htm)

[Richbee]

....Note, some basic foundational understandings must exist before rational, thoughtful discussion can begin, such as defining of terms or titles or names. One can hope that an objective source can help to answer inquirying questions for some, but not all thread visitors.

* edited by a moderator *

eCauldron: Wicca Index (http://www.ecauldron.com/wiccaindex.php)

Addendum:

I can't go back and edit this and make it tiddy. But the explanation here is key to this discussion. (I would like to hear from the Neo-pagans on this matter.)

Wicca is a nature-oriented (but not nature-worshipping) Pagan religion which originated in the mid-20th century, incorporating elements of traditional witchcraft (folk magic) and the teachings of Gerald Gardner. In its original form, which is still practiced, Wicca is an oathbound fertility religion which reveres both male and female deities and whose mysteries (truths that can only be communicated by direct experience) are transmitted by initiation.

eCauldron: Wicca Index (www.ecauldron.com/wiccaindex.php)

(Note: This definition or explanation is Non-Copyrighted)

[Sparko]

Addendum:

I can't go back and edit this and make it tiddy. But the explanation here is key to this discussion. (I would like to hear from the Neo-pagans on this matter.)

Wicca is a nature-oriented (but not nature-worshipping) Pagan religion which originated in the mid-20th century, incorporating elements of traditional witchcraft (folk magic) and the teachings of Gerald Gardner. In its original form, which is still practiced, Wicca is an oathbound fertility religion which reveres both male and female deities and whose mysteries (truths that can only be communicated by direct experience) are transmitted by initiation.

eCauldron: Wicca Index (http://www.ecauldron.com/wiccaindex.php)

(Note: This definition or explanation is Non-Copyrighted)


sorry Clutch but that text IS copyrighted. It was a personal definition of the person who wrote that page. Now if you had gotten it from a dictionary, or encyclopedia that gave permission to copy it then that would be different. this is just for your future notice. I am leaving it here as a separate quote and within decorum, but since you reposted it here and it is copyrighted I will not be changing it in post #1. Please be more careful in the future.

[Richbee]

Can someone recommend a Wiccan Dictionary?

[technomage]

I would like to hear from the Neo-pagans on this matter.

Have you ever considered that we don't want to hear from you. :teeth:

If my suspicions that you are the same person who previously registered as Richbee, then as Proteus, is correct, then you're the same mendacious, dishonest, and disrespectful person under a new name. If my suspicions are not correct, then you're similar enough to that person that you might as well be their twin. You've demonstrated nothing but disdain for everyone around you.

In short, you're boring.

[Richbee]

Have you ever considered that we don't want to hear from you. :teeth:

If my suspicions that you are the same person who previously registered as Richbee, then as Proteus, is correct, then you're the same mendacious, dishonest, and disrespectful person under a new name. If my suspicions are not correct, then you're similar enough to that person that you might as well be their twin. You've demonstrated nothing but disdain for everyone around you.

In short, you're boring.

Actually, what I just established and stated in my O.P., is in direct contradiction to the nonsense you alleged last week about Biblical references about Baal and Asherah having noting to do with Neo-paganism.

Istar, Isis, Aphrodite, Venus, Diana, Brig, etc, are all known and accepted as pagan fertility goddesses. Also, the Greek goddess Demeter—"earth mother"—being a prime example, and the modern source is open for discussion and how this has been linked to Wiccan teachings. (Note: I need not quote the Bible to prove my case, but indeed, it is factual and correct in this regard.)

I will unfold this "mystery" for one and all to learn from, appreciate or reject.

Witchcraft starts with deception, so I understand your motivation here.

[technomage]

Witchcraft starts with deception, so I understand your motivation here.

If I were to have to go off your previous record, I would have to assume that the deceiver is you.

Richbee, you are nothing. Based on your behavior, you're not a Christian, for "No good tree can produce evil fruit." Based on your attitude, you're not Wiccan, for we are enjoined "Never boast, never threaten, never say you wish ill of anyone."

You are empty. I reject your emptiness.

Yet you do not have to be empty ... and if there is anything I can do to bring you to the knowledge of the Creator, and to knowledge of Truth, I will gladly do so.

Believe me, Richbee ... your actions indicate that you need such knowledge.

[Richbee]

Note, that it was Robert Graves, the poet, who painted an idyllic picture of prehistoric Mediterranean life in which the Triple Goddess (virgin, mother, and crone) was the sole deity, women ruled, and human beings of both sexes were in tune with nature, poetry, and the life–force.

Yep, sounds identical with Baal and company, without the infraticide and with a modern twist.

So, it is both Wicca, and the Goddess herself was largely a male creation. Go figure that? Male poets inventing goddesses with fertility?

Nothing about the Goddess myth correlates with what we know of the ancient civilizations which her devotees claim as their foremothers; everything, however, has clearly identifiable roots in the modern subcultures which began with Romanticism and the nineteenth–century occult revival,"

Davis continues:

"It is not Crete, Malta, the Balkans, Lycia, and Greece that bequeathed the Goddess to us, but . . . Michelet, Bachofen, . . . and Gardner."

(See: Goddess Unmasked: The Rise of Neopagan Feminist Spirituality. By Philip G. Davis.)

:shocked:

Wait, is there an objective standard for us to learn from? Or, have all these false gods and goddesses been the invention of the poets? Homer? Babylon? Babel - Genesis 11?

[Richbee]

If I were to have to go off your previous record, I would have to assume that the deceiver is you.

Richbee, you are nothing. Based on your behavior, you're not a Christian, for "No good tree can produce evil fruit." Based on your attitude, you're not Wiccan, for we are enjoined "Never boast, never threaten, never say you wish ill of anyone."

You are empty. I reject your emptiness.

Yet you do not have to be empty ... and if there is anything I can do to bring you to the knowledge of the Creator, and to knowledge of Truth, I will gladly do so.

Believe me, Richbee ... your actions indicate that you need such knowledge.



:juggle:

While you hopelessly spin off topic, the "Lord and Lady" is revealed. How enlightening and illuminating. :read:

Note, it is my intention to cite and post the sources used by the modern day inventors of Wicca. Sure, boyo, as it is in fact largely the brainchild of Gerald Brousseau Gardner (1884–1964), an English fantasy seeker who dabbled in nudism and seances before falling in with a group of Rosicrucians.

:lolo: :huh:

[tmancour]

Note, it is my intention to cite and post the sources used by the modern day inventors of Wicca. Sure, boyo, as it is in fact largely the brainchild of Gerald Brousseau Gardner (1884–1964), an English fantasy seeker who dabbled in nudism and seances before falling in with a group of Rosicrucians.




Richbee, Wicca is a living religion that really doesn't need anyone to point out the details of its modern history--we're quite aware of it (probably more than you). Nor does it need objective sourcing for it to be either vital or relevent to us. We aren't deceived -- quite the contrary. We could try to explain it to you -- and some of us have -- but in the face of a stubborn unwillingness to communicate effectively and the fact that it is a mystery religion, and therefore must be experienced directly to be understood, we literally cannot argue points which we just don't care about.

You think we worship demons and false gods. That's your preogative. I think you worship a sadistic, morally bankrupt cult of hopeless anti-life. That's my preogative. You aren't going to argue us away from our gods by quoting other people who hate our religion. Speak to us in experiencial terms, close your dusty tomes, or get thee hence.

Arion

[James Peter]

Clutch what are you trying to prove or achieve? Because I'm sure your intention isn't just to annoy people... Maybe if you let us know what your objective is we can help you achieve it? Assuming you have an objective beyond trying to make yourself feel important at other's expense of course...

[Richbee]

....Speak to us in experiencial terms, close your dusty tomes, or get thee hence.

Arion

Let's leave behind all hate and name calling. Dusty tome? Would that be, Witchcraft Today, 1954, a kind of Wiccan Baedeker? (tome)

In interest of seeking the truth and revealing orgins, wouldn't it be better to search the stacks for another kind of dusty tale, one man made in the imagination of Johann Jakob Bachofen (1815–1887), a law professor at the University of Basel, who published a vastly influential book, Das Mutterrecht (The Mother–Right), in which (witch) he postulated that human society had once been both universally matriarchal and devoted to the worship of powerful agricultural goddesses who survived as minor deities of earth and moon in the polytheistic patriarchies that supplanted the matriarchies (e.g. the Greek goddess Demeter—"earth mother").

Not really true is it? Especially the line about this Pre-Christian history predating the God of the Bible? Now, I thought I had much of this expalined logically over on the thread about Baal and his female dieties (victims), but now I'm confused.

Seriously, what can we believe to be true? Oh, why bother? Just let your imagination guide you on your path, or seek the truth in sincere inquiry?

[Richbee]

Clutch what are you trying to prove or achieve? Because I'm sure your intention isn't just to annoy people... Maybe if you let us know what your objective is we can help you achieve it? Assuming you have an objective beyond trying to make yourself feel important at other's expense of course...

Well, this thread was intended to answer many questions, but also to clear up a misunderstanding about Neopaganism. I also regret using the word: recycled. More, so re-invented, or wrapped in a new veneer, or covered with a different meaning. (Or, wait, is it really the same minus the child sacrifice?)

Please note that while my other thread started with Baal and the fertility goddess of the Old Testament, and working forward through time, it is my expressed intent here, to start with the modern pantheon and work back through all of history to Genesis 11. (go on get your Bible and get a head start.)

I find this fascinating and illuminating. Like the feeling Dorthy had when the Wizard of Oz was outed. Toto was born with a purpose and so divine.

Additionally, we might make better progress here, by posting links to King Arthur, and indeed, "The Lord and the Lady" will be quite evident. Is this not a more valid source?

[Durthorin]

Clutch your quoting things "PAGAN" historians and scholars have told us twenty years ago.. you may still find some Fundimentalist Pagan's that believe it but most of us are well aware of our history. Thats why we're neo-pagans if you want to be specific.

http://www.silver-branch.org/ssbbiblio/ssbbibhi.htm

[Richbee]

Clutch your quoting things "PAGAN" historians and scholars have told us twenty years ago.. you may still find some Fundimentalist Pagan's that believe it but most of us are well aware of our history. Thats why we're neo-pagans if you want to be specific.

http://www.silver-branch.org/ssbbiblio/ssbbibhi.htm

Hmmm, nope. Still pagan. I noted the word:Avalon. Legends and rituals, O.K., new? New expressions, sure.

Question, if the "Lord and Lady" is a true expression of the divine spiritual realm, and the Male - Female deity is present, how can we know this as true? In balance? Is nature in balance? Does nature manifest the spiritual realm that you believe in? And, the spiritual or energy of creation? Or, forces of energy in the divine world? (Note, that an equally valid set of questions can be posted over under Apologetics, because indeed, one might wonder how the Holy Spirit is discerned or felt, or called a "power".)

[Durthorin]

Hmmm, nope. Still pagan. I noted the word:Avalon. Legends and rituals, O.K., new? New expressions, sure.

Question, if the "Lord and Lady" is a true expression of the divine spiritual realm, and the Male - Female deity is present, how can we know this as true?


I walk in a universe where almost all life is male/female. One finds unisex organisms to be the simplest forms of life most often. NOt what you refer to as higher forms..it would be odd to me if the highest form of life had mosre in common with bacteria than humanity.


In balance? Is nature in balance? Does nature manifest the spiritual realm that you believe in? And, the spiritual or energy of creation? Or, forces of energy in the divine world? (Note, that an equally valid set of questions can be posted over under Apologetics, because indeed, one might wonder how the Holy Spirit is discerned or felt, or called a "power".)

I believe that nature has a balance, we do not always perceive it and in some cases we will fully attempt to force stasis on a an area that is imbalanced for our benefit as individuals or as a species. Does it refelct the spirtual? In my mind it does.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[tmancour]

Hmmm, nope. Still pagan. I noted the word:Avalon. Legends and rituals, O.K., new? New expressions, sure.

And yet we don't have a problem with that . . .


Question, if the "Lord and Lady" is a true expression of the divine spiritual realm, and the Male - Female deity is present, how can we know this as true?


The Lord and the Lady are a true expression of the divine realm. There are lots of perspectives on divinity. This is one that most Wiccans are most comfortable with. We "know" this is true by personal experience, human universality, and basic biology: Every human being had a mother and a father. This is universal human truth. To extend that truth to encompass the divine is no great leap of imagination.


In balance?


Yes.


Is nature in balance?


Nature is constantly seeking balance. Nature abhors a vacuum. Pressure equalizes. While you cannot point to one thing at one point in time and say "this thing is in balance" the fact is that Nature continuously seeks that balance, without ever permanently finding it. The seeking is a sacred thing to our minds.


Does nature manifest the spiritual realm that you believe in?


Yes, and the spiritual realm likewise manifests in Nature.


And, the spiritual or energy of creation? Or, forces of energy in the divine world?

Yes. But we don't see creation as a "it happened a long time ago" situation necessary for a Divinity of History. We see creation as a process that continues to this very moment. The conception of a new child is an act of divine creation. The sex that produces (or doesn't) that child is an act of divine creation. The mitosis of cells is an act of divine creation. The fury of thermonuclear reaction within the heart of a star is an act of divine creation.


(Note, that an equally valid set of questions can be posted over under Apologetics, because indeed, one might wonder how the Holy Spirit is discerned or felt, or called a "power".)

We call it "magick".

Arion

[Richbee]

Thank you keeping up the "spirit" that I intended for this thread, and I have enjoyed pondering the questions or the search for a deeper meaning and origins of ideas. The British or Irish/Scots/Welsh/English are fantastic story tellers, and fables, folklore abound. So often, at least in my mind, we talk around each other, or straight past some of this issues because of the fuzzy nature of terms, meanings or defitions, oh and the blending or mixing of vastly different ideas presents a challenge. (e.g. paganism mixed with the occultic inventions (deceptions))

Now, here is an old story teller, and a fascinating quick study to discuss briefly.

Charles Williams (1886-1945), a devout Anglican as well as a former member of the Fellowship of the Rosy Cross and a specialist in Tarot and Kabbala, was a close friend of Tolkien during the years of the Second World War, and an even closer friend - almost, indeed, a spiritual adviser - to C. S. Lewis. But whilst Tolkien's fantasy-world has become a global industry, and C. S. Lewis remains a household name, Williams, the third and arguably most complex member of their Oxford literary group, the Inklings, has slipped into obscurity.

The Last Magician (www.grevel.co.uk/pp002.shtml)

Recall, that from my previous posts I mention a poet like Robert Graves (the Moon is always my Mistress), and his own sources help peel back the layers of the onion revealing yet more sources and revelation to but a few.

Then, again, even greater fictions are uncovered: The Fabrication of 'Celtic' Astrology (http://cura.free.fr/xv/13ellis2.html)

[Richbee]

And yet we don't have a problem with that . . .

The Lord and the Lady are a true expression of the divine realm. There are lots of perspectives on divinity. This is one that most Wiccans are most comfortable with. We "know" this is true by personal experience, human universality, and basic biology: Every human being had a mother and a father. This is universal human truth. To extend that truth to encompass the divine is no great leap of imagination.

What is the starting point to begin the inquiry or experience the "Lord and Lady"? Can we learn from Gardner or Graves?

What was the starting point for Gardner or Graves? Recall that I posted a few references to more modern notions or ideas, such as those found in The White Goddess by Robert Graves who had a great influence on early 20th century seekers of natural divinity or those who desired to reclaim that which (witch) was lost from an ancient time, Greek or Celtic, or Druid as it might have been, and here, it is challenging to follow the intellectual bread crumbs through time. (Graves imagined a goddess, but who was the god? We can trace his sources, but indeed, he did create his own "vision" from a woman he loves, and a poet no less, his tutor.)

I mentioned a 19th century invention of a kind of "Mother-goddess" association from Greece or Rome, (i.e. the Greek or Roman goddess Demeter (Artemus (www.pantheon.org/articles/a/artemis.html) - The daughter of Leto and Zeus, and the twin of Apollo. In Ephesus, a great temple was built in her honor, which became one of the "Seven Wonders of the Ancient World". But at Ephesus she was worshiped mainly as a fertility goddess, and was identified with Cybele the mother goddess of eastern lands.) —"earth mother" - goddess of fertility). (I may be jumping back too far in history now, as there is still so much to be uncovered (exposed) from the 20th century.)

Here is again, we can ponder an imaginative interpretation (non-Biblical source) of an old idea from an ancient times, painting a picture of a "Great Mother": Cybele, who some worshiped in the Greek/Asian or Hellenistic world. Professor Ronald Nash writes:

"She undoubtedly began as a goddess of nature. Her early worship included orgiastic ceremonies in which her frenzied male worshipers were led to castrate themselves, following which they became "Galli" or eunuch-priests of the goddess. Cybele eventually came to be viewed as the Mother of all gods and the mistress of all life.

Most of our information about the cult describes its practices during its later Roman period. (This may or may not help us to discern the genesis and evolution from the East.) According to myth, Cybele loved a shepherd named Attis. Because Attis was unfaithful, she drove him insane. Overcome by madness, Attis castrated himself and died. This drove Cybele into great mourning, and it introduced death into the natural world. But then Cybele restored Attis to life, [the form or state of "life" is vague at best] an event that also brought the world of nature back to life.

[Richbee]

Clutch your quoting things "PAGAN" historians and scholars have told us twenty years ago....

Oh and, please, in the interest of respect for traditions and truth. (Follow the digital hotlinks (bread crumbs))

:ahem:

Ahem, I wish to apologize if I have offended any old classic Pagans here, [Or Neo-pagans tracing their modern goddess(es) and I wish to correct my previous post. (May the goddess have mercy and the gods forgive me)

I should have hotlinked the name:Demeter (www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/greek/articles.html)

The Greek earth goddess par excellence, who brings forth the fruits of the earth, particularly the various grains. She taught mankind the art of sowing and ploughing [plowing] so they could end their nomadic existence. As such, Demeter was also the goddess of planned society. She was very popular with the rural population. As a fertility goddess she is sometimes identified with Rhea and Gaia. In systematized theology, Demeter is a daughter of Cronus and Rhea and sister of Zeus by whom she became the mother of Persephone. .....Her sacred animals were the snake (an earth-creature) and the pig (another symbol of fertility).

(The Romans equated her with the goddess Ceres.)

As fortune would have it this day, I saved myself from more confusion about another goddess: Diana (www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/roman/articles.html)

The Roman goddess of nature, fertility and childbirth. She is closely identified with the Greek goddess Artemis. Diana is also a moon-goddess and was originally worshipped on the mountain Tifata near Capua and in sacred forests (such as Aricia (www.livius.org/a/italy/aricia/aricia.html) in Latium). [Mentioned in the Movie: Gladiator.] Her priest lived in Aricia and if a man was able to kill him with a bough broken from a tree in this forest, he would become priest himself. [No self-respecting Uber-Feminist can believe this?] (Footnote: Details of the ritual are described in "The Golden Bough" by Sir James George Frazer (i.e. the dusty tome of Graves and Gardner))

Yet there is another Roman: Good Goddess:Bona Dea (www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/roman/articles.html) is a Roman fertility goddess, especially worshipped by the Roman matrons. She presided over both virginity and fertility in women.

Credit: Micha F. Lindemans

[tmancour]

Ahem, I wish to apologize if I have offended any old classic Pagans here, [Or Neo-pagans tracing their modern goddess(es) and I wish to correct my previous post. (May the goddess have mercy and the gods forgive me)


I don't fault your scholarship, and yes, many of the gods and goddesses of our paleo-pagan past contribute to the current Wiccan conceptualization of the Lord and the Lady. And I'm quite familiar with Graves' work (though I find his scholarship to be shaky, I am intrigued by his conclusions on mytho-poetics.) You will find the intellectual roots of rebirth of the Goddess movement in those places, as well as in Margaret Murray and in several other areas of dubious scholarship. You should also include Marion Zimmer Bradley's Mists of Avalon as important to the evolution.

Gardner, while he popularly introduced Wicca as a religion, did not place the emphasis on the Goddess the way that later Wiccan writers (particularly Valiente) did. And while I feel you are trying to establish that the modern conception of the Lord and Lady is based in part on mistaken findings and shoddy scholarship of the paleo-pagan past, I don't think you will find many Neo-Pagans will disagree with you on that subject.

But that does not diminish the importance of the Goddess to Wicca today, as a living religion. Was there a matriarchal, Goddess-dominant religion living peacefully with the Earth before the nasty Patriarchies came along? Probably not. There were certainly matrifocal cultures and cultures where the Great Goddess was worshipped in preference to other divinities at various times.

But the modern Wiccan conception of the Lord and Lady, regardless of their intellectual history, are every bit as valid to the religious life of Wiccans as any deity with a pristine intellectual pedigree. I contend that it is a sign of a cultural and religious sophistication that recognizes the vital power of both Goddess as incarnate in "Gaia" (with the attendant conception of the interdependence of all living things) and a more psychologically sophisticated view of the godhead as a reflection of our interior lives.

The common experience of the Wiccan conception of the Lord and Lady stem, in my experience, from the individual's own experience with strong male and female archetypes, as personified by childhood recollections of Mother and Father, exteded into the divine. And while this may not have the impressive haigiographical impact of a five-thousand year old book, it does have a great deal more personal relevence.

And a quest for relevence in its religion is what the Western World has been struggling with for a few centuries, now.

Is that where you're going with this?

Arion

[Richbee]

Who is called the Lady of of the Stars of Heaven and the Queen of Heaven, Dea Coelestis in Latin?

[technomage]

Who is called the Lady of of the Stars of Heaven and the Queen of Heaven, Dea Coelestis in Latin?
The problem with your association, Clutch, is that you're basically associating the Coliseum of Rome with the Astrodome, and therefore condemning football because it descends from gladiatorial sports.

Do we worship the God and the Goddess? Sure do. Did the Pagans? Eh ... not really. Paleo-Paganism is rife with discrete polytheism, while many Pagans are "archetype monotheists." Yes, we use images, names, and concepts from Paleo-Paganism ... but it's no more the "same thing" than if a sportswriter used images, names, and concepts from Imperial Rome to describe a modern-day footballo team.

The beliefs are different. The culture is different. Sure as anything the practices are different.

So what's your beef?

[Richbee]

The problem with your association, Clutch, is that you're basically associating the Coliseum of Rome with the Astrodome, and therefore condemning football because it descends from gladiatorial sports.

Not quite, the real World of Spirits or Spiritism is no game.

Do we worship the God and the Goddess? Sure do. Did the Pagans? Eh ... not really. Paleo-Paganism is rife with discrete polytheism, while many Pagans are "archetype monotheists." Yes, we use images, names, and concepts from Paleo-Paganism ... but it's no more the "same thing" than if a sportswriter used images, names, and concepts from Imperial Rome to describe a modern-day footballo team.

Consider the author(s), the poets, the Bards if you will.

So gods and goddesses, customized and repackaged for the 21st century?

The beliefs are different. The culture is different. Sure as anything the practices are different.

Well sure, but is the eternal destiny the same, and indeed, this might be better discussed under Comparitive Religions.

So what's your beef?

(Uhhh, Prime Truth™ Filet, USDA Inspected. :hehe:)

This is a journey, a journey of intellectual discovery through all of recorded history. Although the evidence is thin, there is some recorded history here. Note, that some sources have been used many times over and over, while blending in new ideas to appear as "new" found truths.

Now just stop and wonder about the author: Jane Ellen Harrison (1850–1928), who contended in her 1903 book Prologomena to the Study of Greek Religion that all the goddesses of Greek mythology had been just one goddess (One Spirit?) during pre–Hellenic, "matriarchal times". Hold on? What was her source?

Margaret Murray?

Gerald Gardner?

Joseph Campbell, "discovered" that the myth of the powerful earth or moon goddess as a universal human archetype. Wait, what was his source?

Now, what are your sources?




(Hat Tip: Bachofen (1815–1887), who published a vastly influential book, Das Mutterrecht - The Mother–Right)

[technomage]

Not quite, the real World of Spirits or Spiritism is no game.

And that's where we part ways, Clutch--you cannot, or will not, accept that I'm not dealing with Spirits. My relationship is with the Creator.

:shrug: If Party A assumes that Party B is wrong (whether lying, deceived, or confused) before B opens his mouth, there is no communication.

[Richbee]

And that's where we part ways, Clutch--you cannot, or will not, accept that I'm not dealing with Spirits. My relationship is with the Creator.

:shrug: If Party A assumes that Party B is wrong (whether lying, deceived, or confused) before B opens his mouth, there is no communication.

What is the source for your Creator? Nature or indirect revelation? Experiential? Can you feel the spirit?

Carl Jung?

Joseph Campbell?

[technomage]

What is the source for your Creator? Nature or indirect revelation? Experiential? Can you feel the spirit?

Joseph Campbell? Starhawk?
Clutch, I am not--and have never been--interested in being lectured to.

EDITED TO ADD: You have no interest in my answers, save as a platform to expound your own beliefs. That's not "honest conversation." And that same lack of honest conversation is why I am persuaded that you and Richbee are the same person.

[Richbee]

Clutch, I am not--and have never been--interested in being lectured to.

EDITED TO ADD: You have no interest in my answers, save as a platform to expound your own beliefs. That's not "honest conversation." And that same lack of honest conversation is why I am persuaded that you and Richbee are the same person.

But, wait, I'm not thumbing, or even tapping a Bible here. I am seeking out any and all Wiccan, or Neopagan sources. (Very thin at best.)

I learned a great deal today, and we covered so much ground in very little time.

:ahem:

Well it's a marvelous night for a moondance?

:dance:

A fantabulous night!

[technomage]

I am seeking out any and all Wiccan, or Neopagan sources.

What's my source for knowing you?

[tmancour]

What is the source for your Creator? Nature or indirect revelation?

Nature. Pretty much covers it.


Experiential? Can you feel the spirit?


Oh, yeah. Experience is essential. And depending upon your definition of spirit, your talent, and your sincerity, you can feel it.


Carl Jung?


Yeah, sure. Jungian psychology is definately one of the traditions enfolded into many Wiccan practices. Problem?

Joseph Campbell?
[/quote]

Definately. Perhaps even an essential element.

I can appreciate your "search for truth" on this subject -- tracing the roots of a syncretic tradition is important, from a scholarly point of view. So far you've brought up Gardner, Tolkien/Lewis, Valiente, Classical Myth, Jung, Campbell, Murray, and a few others. You've left out Muir, Darwin, Lao Tzu, Lucas, Sci-Fi conventions, EarthDay, Greenpeace, Ecotopia, Gerald Garreau, Thoreau, Jefferson, Native American shamanism, Ann Rice, the Transendental Meditation movement, Carlos Castenada, Jacques Cousteau, Jethro Tull, Fossey and Goodall, Chaos Theory, The Grateful Dead, Margot Adler, Quantum Physics, the Society for Creative Anachronism, Aleister Crowly, and that little thing called the Internet . . . all of which have contributed in some significant way to the creation of Wicca as an emergent religion today.

Now, I can't tell if you are upbraiding us because you think we practice an ancient religion with a new paint job OR because you think we practice a new religion and claim that it's ancient. Not that it makes much difference -- most Wiccans understand the syncretic nature of their religion and don't limit their practice to whatever is in the Standard Book of Shadows, Grade 1. Wicca is as much a moral philosophy and psychological practice as a religion, and can be quite complex. It can also appear kind of silly. Wiccans will be the first to admit that. But it doesn't usually bother most of us most of the time. Heck, we're as tolerent as Christians are forgiving.

Arion

[Richbee]

Just a quicky here, regarding C.S. Lewis, and yes an expert in Norse mythology, and indeed, a very good friend of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Now there is this most curious passage where C. S. Lewis writes in his The Screwtape Letters Where by an experienced demon (Screwtape) writes a letter instructing a novice demon (Wormwood):

I have great hopes that we shall learn in due time how to
emotionalize and mythologize their science to such an
extent that what is, in effect, a belief in us, (though
not under that name) will creep in while the human mind
remains closed to belief in the Enemy [i.e., God]. The
"Life Force," the worship of sex, and some aspects of
Psychoanalysis, may here prove useful. If once we can
produce our perfect work -- the Materialist Magician, the
man, not using, but veritably worshipping, what he
vaguely calls "Forces" while denying the existence of
"spirits" -- then the end of the war will be in sight.

C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1975), page 33.

Now, perhaps you do believe in "spirits" and no doubt a different or contrasted view of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly? And what then of the Soul? Eternal destiny? Do you get to project your feelings and define this too, for yourself, by yourself? Follow your Bliss?

[technomage]

Now, I can't tell if you are upbraiding us because you think we practice an ancient religion with a new paint job OR because you think we practice a new religion and claim that it's ancient. Not that it makes much difference -- most Wiccans understand the syncretic nature of their religion and don't limit their practice to whatever is in the Standard Book of Shadows, Grade 1. Wicca is as much a moral philosophy and psychological practice as a religion, and can be quite complex. It can also appear kind of silly. Wiccans will be the first to admit that. But it doesn't usually bother most of us most of the time. Heck, we're as tolerent as Christians are forgiving.

And the only thing I'll ad to Arion's statements is that you, Clutch, have the cart before the horse. All the syncretic elements are to provide a structure for an ineffable experience of communion with the Creator ... but it must be understood that the structure is to understand and teach that communion, and the structure comes second, not first. The primary point comes from the communion with the Creator.

Oh, and you can skip that silliness about a "fertility" religion: though it has frequently been identified as such (even by Gardner), the identity is erroneous. Fertility, too, is but a symbol for the Creator's abolity to create.

[tmancour]

Now, perhaps you do believe in "spirits" ...

That all depends upon how you define "spirits" and what you consider "belief".


...and no doubt a different or contrasted view of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly?

Different. . . from yours? Quite probably. I don't consider my religion any less valid because it doesn't conform to an Abrhamic moral system -- even if it is congruent on many points.


And what then of the Soul?

The Soul, in much of Pagan theology, is an instrument that is tempered by a succession of lifetimes, increasing its knowledge and wisdom through a continuum of experience and perspective.


Eternal destiny?

What thinks the raindrop of its destiny? I can certainly tell you that my belief is not that my eternal destiny is not utterly dependent upon one single lifetime, good, bad, or ugly. Any destiny apart from acquisition of wisdom is bogus.

Do you get to project your feelings and define this too, for yourself, by yourself? Follow your Bliss?

Exactly. For your Bliss is the indicator of your Divine Will. And only you are qualified to make that determination.

Arion

[Richbee]

That all depends upon how you define "spirits" and what you consider "belief".



Different. . . from yours? Quite probably. I don't consider my religion any less valid because it doesn't conform to an Abrhamic moral system -- even if it is congruent on many points.



The Soul, in much of Pagan theology, is an instrument that is tempered by a succession of lifetimes, increasing its knowledge and wisdom through a continuum of experience and perspective.

Hmmm, soul?

Reincarnation is an Eastern principle or dagma, and Wicca or Wiccans adopted this through Theosophy or through Eastern Religions.

Not really a foundational tenet of old Paganism?

Food for thought or your body for the worms?

I have a hunch that as soon as we admit there may be a soul, then we have to admit there may be other immaterial beings in the universe to whom we are accountable.

Evidence for the soul reveals evidence for God!!! Or, at least our yearning for that which is transcendent, or outside of ourselves. A higher power as some might conclude. (Something out there, Spock?)

Quote:

So why would anyone believe in the soul?

* First, there are many near-death testimonies of people leaving their bodies and even looking down on the doctors in the operating room. While I don't think every one of them is true, I think it possible that at least some of them are true. That is evidence that we are more than our brain.

* Second, we have a unified experience. What do I mean? I mean that it is "I" who feels and learns and runs and believes and loves. "I" do this. And they can't find me in my brain anywhere.

http://www.rzim.org/publications/slicetran.php?sliceid=870

[Durthorin]

* First, there are many near-death testimonies of people leaving their bodies and even looking down on the doctors in the operating room. While I don't think every one of them is true, I think it possible that at least some of them are true. That is evidence that we are more than our brain.

Having had one, it strengthened my faith in the Goddess.

Danu Bless, Dur

[tmancour]

Hmmm, soul?

Reincarnation is an Eastern principle or dagma, and Wicca or Wiccans adopted this through Theosophy or through Eastern Religions.

Not really a foundational tenet of old Paganism?

Food for thought or your body for the worms?


Actually, reincarnation is as much Western as it is Eastern; it is one of the few definate elements of belief that we know was held by the Druids, according to classical sources and Celtic folktale alike. It's true that Gardner, et. al. were also informed by Buddhism, Hinduism, and Theosophy, but it is nonetheless a Western Paleopagan belief.


I have a hunch that as soon as we admit there may be a soul, then we have to admit there may be other immaterial beings in the universe . . .


No problem there . . .


. . . to whom we are accountable.


Why would we automatically be "accountable" to other immaterial beings? Any more than we are "accountable" to other material beings?


Evidence for the soul reveals evidence for God!!! Or, at least our yearning for that which is transcendent, or outside of ourselves. A higher power as some might conclude. (Something out there, Spock?)



Perhaps . . . but there is no reason we should automatically go leaping towards a transcendent theology just because we premise the existance of the soul. Indeed, I think it is more natural to assume an imminent theology based on this "evidence".


Quote:

So why would anyone believe in the soul?

* First, there are many near-death testimonies of people leaving their bodies and even looking down on the doctors in the operating room. While I don't think every one of them is true, I think it possible that at least some of them are true. That is evidence that we are more than our brain.


Agreed. I would add to this the validity of past-life regression in many circumstances.


* Second, we have a unified experience. What do I mean? I mean that it is "I" who feels and learns and runs and believes and loves. "I" do this. And they can't find me in my brain anywhere.


So let's start cutting up brains a little at a time until we see where "you" disappear. . .

Arion

[Richbee]

Actually, reincarnation is as much Western as it is Eastern; it is one of the few definate elements of belief that we know was held by the Druids, according to classical sources and Celtic folktale alike. It's true that Gardner, et. al. were also informed by Buddhism, Hinduism, and Theosophy, but it is nonetheless a Western Paleopagan belief.

Don't confuse recycling, like letting your body become Food for Worms, and REINCARNATION.

Please, get real! (Stop reading Tolkein's fantasy literature or The Golden Bowles.

Next, we will discuss Madmade B' and the Founding Fathers of Wicca who got brained washed on her heretical hubris.

[Richbee]

Having had one, it strengthened my faith in the Goddess.

Danu Bless, Dur

Even the Devil can appear as an Angel of LIGHT!?

Did you forget to discern this or any revealation against the Word of God?

Oh, O.K., go fur it Dude!? Make it up as LIFE goes alone!

[FreezBee]

Even the Devil can appear as an Angel of LIGHT!?

Did you forget to discern this or any revealation against the Word of God?

Oh, O.K., go fur it Dude!? Make it up as LIFE goes alone!

Gee, I would never have written anything like this -- which disproves tmancour's claim that RichBee and I share identity.

- FreezBee

[Huguenot]

What did you have and which goddess appeared or manifested itself? Did you test the spirits?