Gregory of Nyssa

[Pythagoras]

Following is the gist of what Gregory of Nyssa is saying in Not Three Gods.

"..Thus there are many who have shared in the nature-- many disciples, say, or apostles, or martyrs -- but the man in them is one; since, as has been said, the term "man" does not belong to the nature of the individual as such, but to that which is common."

In other words, John, James and Peter are really One Man because they are all human, i.e. the man in them is one. This is so preposterous that trinitarians like rayado and apologianick think I'm "mis-quoting" and "mis-representing" Gregory of Nyssa ! Following is a trinitarian leader who confirms my take on what Gregory of Nyssa is saying :

http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page883.htm (http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page883.htm)





"I believe that the scriptures teach that there are threeseparate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son and the HolySpirit. By this I mean that the Father is not the Son, neither is Hethe Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, neither is He the HolySpirit. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separateexisting individuals. Now I am not saying there are three Gods. .. …Question: Can two people, can tenpeople be one? Of course they can. Jesus so prayed that those whobelieve on Him might be one. Not one person, but one in aim, one indesires, one in purpose, one in plan, one is agreement, one inwords…Somewhat similar to Matthew 19:5, when Jesus said that husbandand wife should be one. Obviously husband and wife do not become oneperson, but they do become one. They are not one entity, they arestill two, but they are one is aim, in plans, in desires, etc.Jesus said that believers should be one. Is that possible? Ofcourse. Jesus prayed for it. As believers are still differentpersons, so are the Father and the Son different persons. Often we speak of the team. It may be a football team, abasketball team, a swimming team. We call them one because they allhave the same goals, the same desires, they all want to win thecontest. Now, they are not one person, but many; but they are oneteam. So it is with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. TheFather, the Son and the Holy are one in aim, in desires, in plans,in agreement, in purposes; yet they are three distinct persons,three distinct entities. And this we shall see as we proceed furtherin this study."


And my learned friend Alam agrees with me on what Gregory of Nyssa is saying here:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=61701&page=7&pp=16 (http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?t=61701&page=7&pp=16)


"Gregory of Nyssa suggests that 'Godhead' is a divine activity. If a single act of 'Godness' is shared by the three hpostases he says they are not multiple Gods. Like his other argument about three men really being three instances of Man, this seems to want to reinvent the language to fit the doctrine."

best wishes,

[Sparko]

1. That is not a "trinitarian leader" - it is some piddly preacher at some podunk church.

2. He does a horrible job at describing the trinity. The Father, Son and HS are three persons but they are ONE Entity (he says they are three entities). The Trinity is not a football team.

If you want to try to represent the Trinity, at least find a good source.


carm.org has a pretty good one. go find it.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Sparkey,

In your own words, could you please tell everyone what Gregory of Nyssa is saying here:

"...Thus there are many who have shared in the nature-- many disciples, say, or apostles,or martyrs-- but the man in them is one; since, as has been said, the term "man" does not belong to the nature of the individual as such, but to that which is common."



1. That is not a "trinitarian leader" - it is some piddly preacher at some podunk church.


Well, this "piddly preacher at some podunk church" conducts a weekly radio program and publishes articles in the local newspaper. That makes him a trinitarian leader, Sparkey. And he knows more about the trinity doctrine than you probably will in ten lifetimes.

The Trinity is not a football team.

He never says the Trinity is a football team Sparko, but like a football team. -- though the persons are many yet the team is one. This is exactly what Gregory of Nyssa is saying when he writes "many apostles,disciples or martyrs -- but the man in them is one", i.e. they all belong to team "human" or team "Man" .


If you want to try to represent the Trinity, at least find a good source.


Gregory of Nyssa is my source on the trinity and he's saying the same thing this "piddly preacher" is saying.

I think you require some more time before the truth sinks in.


best wishes,

[Pythagoras]

P.S. Sparkey,




2. He does a horrible job at describing the trinity. The Father, Son and HS are three persons but they are ONE Entity (he says they are three entities). The Trinity is not a football team.



He's using the words "entities" interchangeably with "persons" , Sparkey. Please read his words; that's why he also says God is One.

"The
Father, the Son and the Holy are one in aim, in desires, in plans,
in agreement, in purposes; yet they are three distinct persons,
three distinct entities. And this we shall see as we proceed further
in this study."

And he says God is one, which is the orthodox trinitarian view.

"Now I am not saying there are three Gods. The
Bible clearly teaches there is one God. Listen to Deuteronomy 6:4,
"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." How is it that
there is one God, but yet, three persons in the Godhead? Please stay
with me for a few minutes and we shall see."

best wishes,

there was a reason your other post was deleted Pythagoras, as you well know, it is against Campus Decorum to make back to back posts.

[Krusader]

P.S. Sparkey,





He's using the words "entities" interchangeably with "persons" , Sparkey. Please read his words; that's why he also says God is One.

"The
Father, the Son and the Holy are one in aim, in desires, in plans,
in agreement, in purposes; yet they are three distinct persons,
three distinct entities. And this we shall see as we proceed further
in this study."

And he says God is one, which is the orthodox trinitarian view.

"Now I am not saying there are three Gods. The
Bible clearly teaches there is one God. Listen to Deuteronomy 6:4,
"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." How is it that
there is one God, but yet, three persons in the Godhead? Please stay
with me for a few minutes and we shall see."

best wishes,

How simple is it to see that he is using the term "entities" to mean "persons." However, he maintains the complex unity of the Godhead. He clearly says there are not three gods, but One. Get real, Pyth, and don't twist a dead man's words.

Why don't you set up a new thread called, "Ask the Arian," so that you can constantly spout your non-Trinitarian heresy in a more formal setting.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Crusader,

How simple is it to see that he is using the term "entities" to mean "persons." However, he maintains the complex unity of the Godhead. He clearly says there are not three gods, but One. Get real, Pyth, and don't twist a dead man's words.

Why don't you set up a new thread called, "Ask the Arian," so that you can constantly spout your non-Trinitarian heresy in a more formal setting.

I agree with you this preacher is a bona-fide, orthodox trinitarian, silly! I agree with you he's using "entities" to mean "persons". And yes he mantains the complex unity of the Godhead, just like a good trinitarian.

Your beef is with Sparkie, not me. You're barking up the wrong tree as usual.

best wishes,

[Krusader]

Hi Crusader,



I agree with you this preacher is a bona-fide, orthodox trinitarian, silly! I agree with you he's using "entities" to mean "persons". And yes he mantains the complex unity of the Godhead, just like a good trinitarian.

Your beef is with Sparkie, not me. You're barking up the wrong tree as usual.

best wishes,

I don't bark, Pyth, and Sparko is right!

[Sparko]

Pythagoras, I don't know if that preacher is a 'bonafide' trinitarian, just that he uses very poor language to describe the trinity. To use "entity" and "person" interchangably is to give someone like you fodder to feed your strawman bonfire. God is ONE Being/Entity revealed in three persons. For some trinitarian to use "entity" to mean "person" is just a poor choice of words. Someone like you will take that to say "see he believes in three Gods"

Also, God is not 'like a football team' where you have many different 'entities' that have a common goal. The persons of the Godhead share a common BEING, a common nature. They are the SAME GOD.

so the guy you link to is not very good at describing the trinity. Whether he is a real trinitarian or some wacko like you, I don't have a clue. I can just respond to what he said in that quote you gave.

Now go play with your strawmen dolls and leave the grownups alone.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Sparko,


Pythagoras, I don't know if that preacher is a 'bonafide' trinitarian, just that he uses very poor language to describe the trinity.



I'm afraid that preacher knows more about the trinity than you do. . He's published in the local newspaper , has/had(Crusader seems to think he's dead) a Christian talk show and is a leader of his trinitarian Church. They don't come any more qualified than him.


To use "entity" and "person" interchangably is to give someone like you fodder to feed your strawman bonfire.


I think everyone with even an ounce of intelligence immediately noticed he was using "person" and "entity' interchangeably. It took you long enough to come to this realization! Well, better late than never.


God is ONE Being/Entity revealed in three persons. For some trinitarian to use "entity" to mean "person" is just a poor choice of words. Someone like you will take that to say "see he believes in three Gods"


Regardless of whether "entity" or "person" is used it does not change the fact that trinitarians worship three Gods in the guise of one in my opinion . Infact that preacher did a better job of explaining the trinity than most anyone I've met at Tweb, certainly better than you.. But I'm still not convinced.



Also, God is not 'like a football team' where you have many different 'entities' that have a common goal.


The good preacher would say God is like a football team , i.e. more than one entity(or person) yet one nature(or being), just as Gregory of Nyssa would say God is like three men(persons/entities) , John, James and Peter , yet one "being"( or nature, albeit human nature) for "the man in them is one." Trinitarians are also fond of using the military analogy. God is like the three different wings("persons", "entities") of the military, Infantry, Airforce and Navy but from the one and same military( "nature").

The persons of the Godhead share a common BEING, a common nature. They are the SAME GOD.

Actually more accurately, the persons of the trinity are three distinct persons(or entities) who share the same nature(or being).

Do you agree that the three persons of the Trinity are truly distinct? Yes or no? If no you're a heretic. Who made you moderator at Tweb for trinitarians?



so the guy you link to is not very good at describing the trinity. Whether he is a real trinitarian or some wacko like you, I don't have a clue. I can just respond to what he said in that quote you gave.


I tend to think you're a Semi-Sabelliast. That preacher on the other hand is what I would call a die-hard, solid, hardcore trinitarian.



Now go play with your strawmen dolls and leave the grownups alone.

I'm sorry if the truth hurts Sparko. I'm just pointing out your errors to you. Take it with grace.

best wishes,

[Pythagoras]

I don't bark, Pyth, and Sparko is right!

Obviously you don't know what you're growling about.

best wishes,

[Sparko]

Hi Sparko,




I'm afraid that preacher knows more about the trinity than you do. . He's published in the local newspaper , has/had(Crusader seems to think he's dead) a Christian talk show and is a leader of his trinitarian Church. They don't come any more qualified than him.



I think everyone with even an ounce of intelligence immediately noticed he was using "person" and "entity' interchangeably. It took you long enough to come to this realization! Well, better late than never.



Regardless of whether "entity" or "person" is used it does not change the fact that trinitarians worship three Gods in the guise of one in my opinion . Infact that preacher did a better job of explaining the trinity than most anyone I've met at Tweb, certainly better than you.. But I'm still not convinced.




The good preacher would say God is like a football team , i.e. more than one entity(or person) yet one nature(or being), just as Gregory of Nyssa would say God is like three men(persons/entities) , John, James and Peter , yet one "being"( or nature, albeit human nature) for "the man in them is one." Trinitarians are also fond of using the military analogy. God is like the three different wings("persons", "entities") of the military, Infantry, Airforce and Navy but from the one and same military( "nature").



Actually more accurately, the persons of the trinity are three distinct persons(or entities) who share the same nature(or being).

Do you agree that the three persons of the Trinity are truly distinct? Yes or no? If no you're a heretic. Who made you moderator at Tweb for trinitarians?




I tend to think you're a Semi-Sabelliast. That preacher on the other hand is what I would call a die-hard, solid, hardcore trinitarian.





I'm sorry if the truth hurts Sparko. I'm just pointing out your errors to you. Take it with grace.

best wishes,

:lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl: :lmbo: :rofl:

[Pythagoras]

Hi Sparko,


Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit truly distinct entities?

Yes or No? Heretic meter.

[Sparko]

Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit truly distinct entities?

Yes or No?

No. They are distinct persons. Not distinct beings or entities. They are the SAME Being/Entity and that Being is YHWH our God.

[Pythagoras]

No. They are distinct persons. Not distinct beings or entities. They are the SAME Being/Entity and that Being is YHWH our God.

Fine. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons.

What do you mean when you say these three distinct persons are the same being?

[Pythagoras]

Trinitarians say God is three distinct persons but the same being .But they cannot logically explain their position. Could a trinitarian please give an example or two from nature to prove this point? Gregory of Nyssa tried, but was unsuccessful.

The trinitarian scholar Wayne Grudem is quite frank about the illogic of the doctrine he espouses.




But if each person is fully God and has all of God's being, then we also should not think that the personal distinctions are any kind of additional attributes added on to the being of God . . . Rather, each person of the Trinity has all of the attributes of God, and no one Person has any attributes that are not possessed by the others. On the other hand, we must say that the Persons are real, that they are not just different ways of looking at the one being of God...the only way it seems possible to do this is to say that the distinction between the persons is not a difference of `being' but a difference of `relationships.' This is something far removed from our human experience, where every different human `person' is a different being as well. Somehow God's being is so much greater than ours that within his one undivided being there can be an unfolding into interpersonal relationships, so that there can be three distinct persons.


No explanation is given as to how God could be three distinct persons yet one being. Grudem thinks it's true "Somehow" !



best wishes,

[Sparko]

Pythagoras,

Noone can truly explain the trinity. If we could understand God, we would have to be greater than him. Can an amoeba explain YOU?

The reason we know the trinity is true is because the bible has verses that say the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. It also says that there is only ONE God. And it is clear that Jesus is not the Father or HS. So we have the bible showing three persons who are distinct from one another, all who are fully God, and yet there is ONE God.

The only conclusion is what we call the Triunity of God. The Trinity.

Your solution is to handwave away the verses that say Jesus is God by saying that "god" doesn't mean "God" and that Satan was a God too and Moses, etc. So you end up with mulitple Gods in your effort to deny that Jesus is the ONE God of the Universe.

The irony is quite hilarious to us trinitarians. you accuse us of having 3 Gods when we claim only ONE and you end up with multiple Gods in your effort to deny the trinity. Quite amusing.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Sparko,


Noone can truly explain the trinity. If we could understand God, we would have to be greater than him.


I don't want to be mean to you but that's not an answer. How can God can be three persons yet one being?

Can an amoeba explain YOU?

An amoeba is not made in my image. But man is made in God's image, it is man's destiny to know God.

The reason we know the trinity is true is because the bible has verses that say the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

Not one single biblical verse says Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God(YHWH). This is a figment of your imagination, and 4th century trinitarian esiogesis. Infact a careful read of the bible will reveal that the Holy Spirit is not even a "person".

It also says that there is only ONE God.

Yes. Therefore the trinity cannot be true.

And it is clear that Jesus is not the Father or HS.
Agreed.


So we have the bible showing three persons who are distinct from one another, all who are fully God, and yet there is ONE God.



The bible shows Jesus to not be God(YHWH).

The only conclusion is what we call the Triunity of God. The Trinity.

The doctrine of the trinity is not found in the bible.


Your solution is to handwave away the verses that say Jesus is God by saying that "god" doesn't mean "God" and that Satan was a God too and Moses, etc.


Even Satan is called God in 2 Cor. 4:4. But you do not make him God(YHWH) as a result. So why should Jesus be God(YHWH) because he's called God? Even Moses in Ex. 7:1 is called God.


So you end up with mulitple Gods in your effort to deny that Jesus is the ONE God of the Universe.


No. God is used as a common noun in various places in both the OT and the NT as just shown.


The irony is quite hilarious to us trinitarians. you accuse us of having 3 Gods when we claim only ONE and you end up with multiple Gods in your effort to deny the trinity. Quite amusing.


Let's see who gets the last laugh at judgment day.

best wishes,

[Krusader]

Hi Sparko,



I don't want to be mean to you but that's not an answer. How can God can be three persons yet one being?



An amoeba is not made in my image. But man is made in God's image, it is man's destiny to know God.



Not one single biblical verse says Jesus or the Holy Spirit is God(YHWH). This is a figment of your imagination, and 4th century trinitarian esiogesis. Infact a careful read of the bible will reveal that the Holy Spirit is not even a "person".



Yes. Therefore the trinity cannot be true.


Agreed.




The bible shows Jesus to not be God(YHWH).



The doctrine of the trinity is not found in the bible.



Even Satan is called God in 2 Cor. 4:4. But you do not make him God(YHWH) as a result. So why should Jesus be God(YHWH) because he's called God? Even Moses in Ex. 7:1 is called God.



No. God is used as a common noun in various places in both the OT and the NT as just shown.



Let's see who gets the last laugh at judgment day.

best wishes,

Pyth, you really should be part of the Jehovah's Witnesses cult, if you are not, because you are just as dense as they are when it comes to doctrine. I'm sure they'd create a spot for you at Bethel.