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apostoli

November 19th 2005, 01:45 AM

This thread is an attempt to focus on a "single topic" and is a continuation of Apostoli's and John from Elber's conversation on the threads "Why is the Trinity important?" and "More Anti-Trin Argument." Apostoli is arguing from an orthodox view of the trinity. JBE (?)

there is no W in Hebrew for your 4 letters.You have raised this point several times. So I presume my previous short replies didn't satisfy you. Firstly, I don't understand why you think this is an issue but as you do, I'll attempt to give a detailed response...

The letter "W" does not occur in the Greek alphabet either. But then again neither alphabet has the letter "J", so when you write the name "Jesus" you are not using the same spelling (and likely not the same pronunciation) as what the apostles would have and most English speakers prior to 1629 would have. By example...

When the Bible was first translated by Wycliffe from Latin into English, the Latin spelling "Iesus/Iesu" was retained. When William Tyndale translated the New Testament into English from the original Greek in 1525, he followed Wycliffe and also used the Latin spelling (Iesus/Iesu) because English uses the Latin alphabet. The other early English Bibles, Coverdale, Geneva, Bishops, and the 1611 KJV all used the "Iesus/Iesu" spelling. Not until the 1629 edition of the KJV was the "Jesus" spelling used. The only reason "Jesus" is spelled with a "J" instead of an "I" in our modern English Bibles is because of the evolution of the English language. In the sixteenth century the letter "I" was both a vowel and a consonant. As English evolved, the letter "I" became two letters. "I" retained the characteristics of the vowel exclusively, and a hook was added to the bottom to distinguish the consonant form (J).
Hebrew Roots & Sabbath Issues
http://www.pfrs.org/jewish/hr09.html

Now getting back to your "there is no W in Hebrew". The "W" in "YHWH" is the modern transliteration of Hebrew into English. Until the 17th/18th century the tetragrammaton was translated in the KJV as "IEHOUAH". Since then the most common rendering is "Jehovah", though bibles such as the Jersulaem Bible render it as "Yahweh". As the exact pronunciation is disputed and in deference to Jewish sensibilities many scholars ignore the Masorete vowel markings, and transliterate only the original Hebrew Tetragrammaton into English and write "YHWH" or "YHVH".
Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

About transliteration: Transliteration is the process of representing the sound or combination of sounds of an original language into the sound equivalent found in the target alphabet. In the case of English, some Hebrew sounds are not represented, so the closest equivalent is chosen. In the case of the tetragrammaton, the older transliteration was JHVH. Originally the consonant "I" that became our modern "J" probably had more of a hard "Y" sound rather than the modern hard "G" sound. Probably the "U" in Tynsdale et al translation (see above) when spoken had a double "U" sound. So, these days YHWH is the most common representation but in deference to you I will henceforth use the alternative YHVH.

Deut 6:4 does not say "God your lord is one God" It say's, the Lord, your God, is one LordMore precisely, Deut 6:4 says "Listen O Israel, YHWH our God is one YHWH". I'm sure you are aware of the Jewish superstition regarding using God's name.Wrong, your four letter is not a name- Hebrew has no w for your YHWH and they always said Adonia.The bimbo's that came up with Yahwah just took the vowels for Adonia and made up the name YAHWAH. Deut 6:4 says One Lord and 1 Cor 8:6 agrees. Adonia/ Kurios/ Lord
The KJV translates the tetragrammaton at Ex 6:4 as Jehovah. In verse 3 God says "I am the Lord" in verse 5 it says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God by the name "God Almighty, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them." By God's own words his name is not Lord. Your Adon/Kurios theory is upside down. True the Jews at times past adopted the practice of use Lord, except on certain feast days when the name was announced by the Hight Priest. Do some homework.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh
Here is the English & Hebrew for Deut 6:4
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1131944977-583.html So what is the name, you are only giving 4 letters. Were you born Yesterday- if you were to see me what would you say? Are you going to carry 4 letters with you?I'm sure you know that in some languages (eg: Hebrew) only consonants are written, the vowels are supplied by the person pronouncing a word. The English tradition is to render YHWH as Jehovah. The link I provided in the previous post gives the various renderings used around the world, have a look at it.What is the name? In English the most common rendering is Jehovah. Is it the correct the pronunciation of the name? Well it is as correct as the name Jesus (see above discussion). But lets have a closer investigation of the issue...

Hebrew was/is written using consonants only. The use of vowel markings and additional letters came into use about one thousand years after Jesus' time (ie: about the 10th century AD). This is important as the Masoretes who invented this script type, did so because of variation in spoken Hebrew (and therefore in the reading of the Torah) and so inserted the vowel markings to ensure common pronunciation (understanding) - albeit: doing so on a subjective basis. The project was called masora (tradition), and the insertion of the vowel marks represented their view of how the Bible had always been traditionally vocalized in the Jewish community. "It may well be that they encountered diverging traditions or opinions about how to read a certain passage" So there is no guarantee that their vowel renderings are precise.
http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/bible/hebvow.html
Consonants and Vowels In the Hebrew Script

The Jews have an aversion to pronouncing the name of God, in fact even the word God which they write as G_d". Thus, the Masorete when they rendered the tetragrammaton a little over a thousand years ago did not use the authentic vowels (the Hebrew vocalization may have been lost because of disuse by the 3rd century AD) but used the vowels for Adonai=Lord, as it was common practice, so as not to use God's name in vain, to read Adonai whenever the tetragrammaton was encountered. Consequently, there is some uncertainty regarding the correct Hebrew pronunciation of the name.

I don't see this as an issue: As the name Jesus, is the English rendition of the Aramaic/Hebrew name of the Son of God; the most widely recognized rendering of his Father's name in the English language is Jehovah. The importance for us, in my view, is that we make the Father and the Son personal to our lives. By giving them personal names we accomplish this and remove the bleakness of impersonality by avoiding the ambiguous title of Adonai=Lord that is commonly applied to men (eg: In the Westminster system a judge is referred as my Lord).

As an aside and as an emphasis on the Jews aversion to pronouncing the name of God: In the Hebrew numbering system: The numerical value of a word is determined by adding up the values of each letter. The order of the letters is irrelevant to their value: the number 11 could be written as Yod-Alef, Alef-Yod, Heh-Vav, Dalet-Dalet-Gimmel or many other ways. Ordinarily, however, numbers are written with the smallest possible number of letters and with the largest number first (that is, to the right). The number 11 would be written Yod-Alef, the number 12 would be Yod-Bet, the number 21 would be Kaf-Alef, the number 611 would be Tav-Resh-Yod-Alef, etc. The only significant exception to this pattern is the numbers 15 and 16, which if rendered as 10+5 or 10+6 would be a name of G-d, so they are normally written Tet-Vav (9+6) and Tet-Zayin (9+7).
Judaism 101: Hebrew Alphabet
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm

Now God told Moses "I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty but by my name JEHOVAH. Was I not known to them?" Earlier, God had told Moses "[say] unto the sons of Israel, YHVH ELOHIM [Jehovah God] of your fathers...has sent me unto you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." (Ex 6:3; 3:15).

JBE as you keep reminding me, "God does not change". So if he told Moses his name is YHVH, and that is his name forever. I have to conclude his name is YHVH. As pronounced in English Jehovah. Before you object: Jesus at John 17:3 calls his Father "the only true God" and at verse 6 says "I have manifested your name" and at verse 26 says "And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." Jesus seems to put a particular importance on us knowing his Father's name, his God's name (cp: Jn 20:17). And What is that name? These days it is commonly transliterated into English as YHWH or YHVH (the tetragrammaton) and in English the most common pronunciation is Jehovah.

[the Jews] always said Adonia.Above I alluded to the Jewish over zealousness in obeying the command "Thou shall not take the Lord thy God's name in vain" to the point they have stopped using it completely, and their use of Adonai instead. Adon and Adonai (Lord) does occur in the scriptures, so lets have a look of at least one example. The first occurrence is at Genesis 15:2. The KJV translates "Lord God" but as the The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) comments the phrase used in Hebrew, transliterated into English, is Adonai Jehovah (that is: Lord Jehovah). They go on to note that "The primary meaning of Adon, Adonai is master, and is applied in the OT to both Deity and man."

A quick comparison (see links below) of the Hebrew characters for Deut 6:4 with Gen 15:2 clearly shows that the common rendering of the Shema "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD" and the rendering "Lord God" respectively, reflect tradition and not literal translation. The more precise rendering from literal Hebrew is "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah" and "Adonai YHWH"="Lord Jehovah" respectively.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132375151-4894.html#4
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132375068-7621.html#2

A.Paul at Col 2:8 warns us to be "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Jesus said he made his Father's name known. The choice: follow the Jews and impersonalise God or follow Christ's example. I'll leave your choice to you.

Of interest: The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) commenting on Ex 34:6 notes: "It is significant that the first appearance of the name Jehovah in Scriptures follows the creation of man. It was God (Hebrew: Elohim) who said 'Let us make man in our image' (Gen 1:26) but when man is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Hebrew: Jehovah Elohim) who acts (Gen 2:4). This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all scriptures emphasize this. Jehovah is distinctly the redemptive name of Deity." Keeping this in mind: we get a better understanding of A.Paul's words to Timothy (1 Tim 2:3-6) "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior, who will have all men saved, and to come into the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." Undoubtedly, you'll want to take issue with A.Paul and say I am making two saviors. If you want, raise that issue as another thread. For now, I will conclude by saying we are saved because of the will of God our Father and by the grace of his Son, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6; Titus 3:4-7).

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 02:00 AM

This thread is an attempt to focus on a "single topic" and is a continuation of Apostoli's and John from Elber's conversation on the threads "Why is the Trinity important?" and "More Anti-Trin Argument." Apostoli is arguing from an orthodox view of the trinity. JBE (?)

You have raised this point several times. So I presume my previous short replies didn't satisfy you. Firstly, I don't understand why you think this is an issue but as you do, I'll attempt to give a detailed response...

The letter "W" does not occur in the Greek alphabet either. But then again neither alphabet has the letter "J", so when you write the name "Jesus" you are not using the same spelling (and likely not the same pronunciation) as what the apostles would have and most English speakers prior to 1629 would have. By example...

When the Bible was first translated by Wycliffe from Latin into English, the Latin spelling "Iesus/Iesu" was retained. When William Tyndale translated the New Testament into English from the original Greek in 1525, he followed Wycliffe and also used the Latin spelling (Iesus/Iesu) because English uses the Latin alphabet. The other early English Bibles, Coverdale, Geneva, Bishops, and the 1611 KJV all used the "Iesus/Iesu" spelling. Not until the 1629 edition of the KJV was the "Jesus" spelling used. The only reason "Jesus" is spelled with a "J" instead of an "I" in our modern English Bibles is because of the evolution of the English language. In the sixteenth century the letter "I" was both a vowel and a consonant. As English evolved, the letter "I" became two letters. "I" retained the characteristics of the vowel exclusively, and a hook was added to the bottom to distinguish the consonant form (J).
Hebrew Roots & Sabbath Issues
http://www.pfrs.org/jewish/hr09.html

Now getting back to your "there is no W in Hebrew". The "W" in "YHWH" is the modern transliteration of Hebrew into English. Until the 17th/18th century the tetragrammaton was translated in the KJV as "IEHOUAH". Since then the most common rendering is "Jehovah", though bibles such as the Jersulaem Bible render it as "Yahweh". As the exact pronunciation is disputed and in deference to Jewish sensibilities many scholars ignore the Masorete vowel markings, and transliterate only the original Hebrew Tetragrammaton into English and write "YHWH" or "YHVH".
Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

About transliteration: Transliteration is the process of representing the sound or combination of sounds of an original language into the sound equivalent found in the target alphabet. In the case of English, some Hebrew sounds are not represented, so the closest equivalent is chosen. In the case of the tetragrammaton, the older transliteration was JHVH. Originally the consonant "I" that became our modern "J" probably had more of a hard "Y" sound rather than the modern hard "G" sound. Probably the "U" in Tynsdale et al translation (see above) when spoken had a double "U" sound. So, these days YHWH is the most common representation but in deference to you I will henceforth use the alternative YHVH.

What is the name? In English the most common rendering is Jehovah. Is it the correct the pronunciation of the name? Well it is as correct as the name Jesus (see above discussion). But lets have a closer investigation of the issue...

Hebrew was/is written using consonants only. The use of vowel markings and additional letters came into use about one thousand years after Jesus' time (ie: about the 10th century AD). This is important as the Masoretes who invented this script type, did so because of variation in spoken Hebrew (and therefore in the reading of the Torah) and so inserted the vowel markings to ensure common pronunciation (understanding) - albeit: doing so on a subjective basis. The project was called masora (tradition), and the insertion of the vowel marks represented their view of how the Bible had always been traditionally vocalized in the Jewish community. "It may well be that they encountered diverging traditions or opinions about how to read a certain passage" So there is no guarantee that there vowel renderings are precise.
http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/bible/hebvow.html
Consonants and Vowels In the Hebrew Script

The Jews have an aversion to pronouncing the name of God, in fact even the word God which they write at G_d". Thus, the Masorete when they rendered the tetragrammaton a little over a thousand years ago did not use the authentic vowels (the vocalization may have been lost because of disuse) but used the vowels for Adonai=Lord, as it was common practice, so as not to use God's name in vain, to read Adonai whenever the tetragrammaton was encountered. Consequently, there is some uncertainty regarding the correct Hebrew pronunciation of the name.

I don't see this as an issue: As the name Jesus, is the English rendition of the Aramaic/Hebrew name of the Son of God; the most widely recognized rendering of his Father's name in the English language is Jehovah. The importance for us, in my view, is that we make the Father and the Son personal to our lives. By giving them personal names we accomplish this and remove the bleakness of impersonality by avoiding the ambiguous title of Adonai=Lord that is commonly applied to men (eg: In the Westminster system a judge is referred as my Lord).

As an aside and as an emphasis on the Jews aversion to pronouncing the name of God: In the Hebrew numbering system: The numerical value of a word is determined by adding up the values of each letter. The order of the letters is irrelevant to their value: the number 11 could be written as Yod-Alef, Alef-Yod, Heh-Vav, Dalet-Dalet-Gimmel or many other ways. Ordinarily, however, numbers are written with the smallest possible number of letters and with the largest number first (that is, to the right). The number 11 would be written Yod-Alef, the number 12 would be Yod-Bet, the number 21 would be Kaf-Alef, the number 611 would be Tav-Resh-Yod-Alef, etc. The only significant exception to this pattern is the numbers 15 and 16, which if rendered as 10+5 or 10+6 would be a name of G-d, so they are normally written Tet-Vav (9+6) and Tet-Zayin (9+7).
Judaism 101: Hebrew Alphabet
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm

Now God told Moses "I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty but by my name JEHOVAH. Was I not known to them?" Earlier, God had told Moses "[say] unto the sons of Israel, YHVH ELOHIM [Jehovah God] of your fathers...has sent me unto you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." (Ex 6:3; 3:15).

JBE as you keep reminding me, "God does not change". So if he told Moses his name is YHVH, and that is his name forever. I have to conclude his name is YHVH. As pronounced in English Jehovah. Before you object: Jesus at John 17:3 calls his Father "the only true God" and at verse 6 says "I have manifested your name" and at verse 26 says "And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." Jesus seems to put a particular importance on us knowing his Father's name, his God's name (cp: Jn 20:17). And What is that name? These days it is commonly transliterated into English as YHWH or YHVH (the tetragrammaton) and in English the most common pronunciation is Jehovah.

Above I alluded to the Jewish over zealousness in obeying the command "Thou shall not take the Lord thy God's name in vain" to the point they have stopped using it completely, and their use of Adonai instead. Adon and Adonai (Lord) does occur in the scriptures, so lets have a look of at least one example. The first occurrence is at Genesis 15:2. The KJV translates "Lord God" but as the The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) comments the phrase used in Hebrew, transliterated into English, is Adonai Jehovah (that is: Lord Jehovah). They go on to note that "The primary meaning of Adon, Adonai is master, and is applied in the OT to both Deity and man."

A quick comparison (see links below) of the Hebrew characters for Deut 6:4 with Gen 15:2 clearly shows that the common rendering of the Shema "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD" and the rendering "Lord God" respectively, reflect tradition and not literal translation. The more precise rendering from literal Hebrew is "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah" and "Adonai YHWH"="Lord Jehovah" respectively.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132375151-4894.html#4
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132375068-7621.html#2

A.Paul at Col 2:8 warns us to be "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rusiments of the world, and not after Christ." Jesus said he made his Father's name known. The choice follow the Jews and impersonalise God or...

Of interest: The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) commenting on Ex 34:6 notes: "It is significant that the first appearance of the name Jehovah in Scriptures follows the creation of man. It was God (Hebrew: Elohim) who said 'Let us make man in our image' (Gen 1:26) but when man is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Hebrew: Jehovah Elohim) who acts (Gen 2:4). This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all scriptures emphasize this. Jehovah is distinctly the redemptive name of Deity." Keeping this in mind: we get a better understanding of A.Paul's words to Timothy (1 Tim 2:3-6) "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior, who will have all men saved, and to come into the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." Undoubtedly, you'll want to take issue with A.Paul and say I am making two saviors. If you want, raise that issue as another thread. For now, I will conclude by saying we are saved because of the will of God our Father and by the grace of his Son, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6; Titus 3:4-7).

Gods name is not 4 letters and 4 letters is not a name- and l see you changed from W to V. It's shows your confusion.

Then second point, Most if not all Jews will disagree with your Jehovah- They say it is Yahwah- so it's confusion again. Four letters is not a name and everyone is guessing. Adonia was written and said.

One Lord God and he is Jesus because there is only one Lord.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 19th 2005, 02:29 AM

Gods name is not 4 letters and 4 letters is not a name :ahem: You are half right. In Hebrew only the consonents are written, in this case four consonents YHWH. The vowels are supplied by the speaker and so in English God's name is Jehovah.

and l see you changed from W to V. It's shows your confusion.Under English dialectics (local verbalisation) and the rules of transliteration the Hebrew can be rendered as YHWH or YHVH or JHVH. I am happy with all these transliterations: but as I said in my post in deference to your sensibilities I'll use YHVH when I converse with you.

For instance: the old english Coleur, is rendered in the USA as Color and elsewhere in the English speaking world as Colour.

Most if not all Jews will disagree with your Jehovah- They say it is Yahwah- so it's confusion again.Firstly a pious Jew will not even writ God, they render it G-d. So you won't find one speculating on how to pronounce or write the tetragamaton in English. Some academics (mainly Christian) prefer Yahwah as the original English consonent "I", replaced by "J" as the English language developed has more of a "Y" sound than our hard "J". So the difference is only one of dialect.

Next: Jesus criticised the Jews for their man made traditions and for slaving to the letter of the Law and not the spirit of the Law. If you want to copy them that is up to you. Jesus said he made God's name known and declared it. Who do you want to copy?

Four letters is not a name and everyone is guessing.Half true. Read the links provided. There is strong evidence for supporting the rendering "Jehovah".

Adonia was written and said.When reading the tetragramaton in Deut 6:4 a pious Jew will usually vocalise Adonia, but knows what is written is not Adonai but YHWH (Jehovah). See the links to the original Hebrew for Deut 6:4 and Gen 15:2 I provided. The Jews don't deny this to be true, so it amazes me you think you know what is written in the Hebrew better than they.

One Lord God and he is Jesus because there is only one Lord.Different topic. Raise a new thread.

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 03:41 AM

:
When reading the tetragramaton in Deut 6:4 a pious Jew will usually vocalise Adonia, but knows what is written is not Adonai but YHWH (Jehovah). See the links to the original Hebrew for Deut 6:4 and Gen 15:2 I provided. The Jews don't deny this to be true, so it amazes me you think you know what is written in the Hebrew better than they.

They did not, and you still quote "Jehovah" while they quote "Yahwah" and Yahveh and Yah and it goes on and on. So keep on guessing. Adonia was written to Kurios to Lord

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 19th 2005, 04:17 AM

They did not, and you still quote "Jehovah" while they quote "Yahwah" and Yahveh and Yah and it goes on and on. So keep on guessing. Adonia was written to Kurios to LordAs usual you state your own opinion without any thought or evidence, or substantiation. We can easily clarify the Jewish viewpoint by referring to an authoritive Jewish source - the Jewish Encyclopedia - The Tetragrammaton is the ancient Israelitish name for God. According to actual count, it occurs 5,410 times in the Bible...For it was substituted Adonai; and the fact that this name is found 315 times in combination with "Yhwh" and 134 times alone shows that the custom of reading the Tetragrammaton as if written "Adonai" began at a time when the text of the Biblical books was not yet scrupulously protected from minor additions. This assumption explains most of the occurrences of "Adonai" before "Yhwh"; i.e., the former word indicated the pronunciation of the latter. At the time of the Chronicler this pronunciation was so generally accepted that he never wrote the name "Adonai." About 300 B.C., therefore, the word "Yhwh" was not pronounced in its original form. For several reasons Jacob ("Im Namen Gottes," p. 167) assigns the "disuse of the word 'Yhwh' and the substitution of 'Adonai' to the later decades of the Babylonian exile."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=165&letter=T

"Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name 'Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11"
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N&search=YHWH

And Yes, the Jewish Encyclopedia dispute the english translation Jehovah saying...
If the explanation [given in this article] be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh () or Yahaweh (). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah () is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho ( = ), and Jo or Yo (, contracted from ), which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah () in the second part of such names.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N&search=YHWH

If you think the dispute over how to pronounce God's name has any significance to us, ask yourself why the pronounciation of the name Jesus isn't equally revered. Especially as it is not the name that the disciples called him in Greek nor in Hebrew nor in Aramaic.

In any case from the Jewish Encyclopedia it should be evident even to you that the name of God at Deut 6:4 is not adonai but as they say "nomen ineffabile", the name unmentionable but it is the name we use in English.

The Jews admit they reject any vocalisation of the name of God but they also reject his Son. Jesus said he declared his Father's name. Who do you want to follow?

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 04:28 AM

understanding of A.Paul's words to Timothy (1 Tim 2:3-6) "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior, who will have all men saved, and to come into the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." Undoubtedly, you'll want to take issue with A.Paul and say I am making two saviors. If you want, raise that issue as another thread. For now, I will conclude by saying we are saved because of the will of God our Father and by the grace of his Son, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 8:6; Titus 3:4-7).

You really do have a double standard. Please start another thread for what you wrote above.

The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria in place of the people of Israel." (2 Kings 17:24) These foreign races became the Samaritans we meet in Jesus' time. Josephus says they "are called in Hebrew 'Cutheans;' in Greek 'Samaritans.' (Antiquities: book IX, ch. XIV:3)

Clement of Alexandria states that pronunciation of the tetragramaton rest upon the Samaritan tradition because it was their god. (Theology of Old testament page 39) John 4: 22 'You worship that which you don’t know". Exactly- You are just guessing and guessing and have no idea.

God and god and gods and spirit and spirit and you still have no idea. Yehovah and Yahwah and Yehweh and Yeheveh and the list goes on- just as Jesus said in John 4:22

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 19th 2005, 05:39 AM

You really do have a double standard. Please start another thread for what you wrote above.I will! Though I'm still waiting for you to raise the one I ask of you from your left field "One Lord God and he is Jesus because there is only one Lord."

I apologise, my thought processes got carried away, writing as much to myself as to you. Consequently I was borderline of going off topic in the last paragraph of my post. However, the difference between your post and mine is that I was continuing a thought not radomly digressing onto a new subject.

To someone who may not have read my initial post, you misrepresent me by partial quotation. The context I was working in remained on topic "Of interest: The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) commenting on Ex 34:6 notes: "It is significant that the first appearance of the name Jehovah in Scriptures follows the creation of man. It was God (Hebrew: Elohim) who said 'Let us make man in our image' (Gen 1:26) but when man is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Hebrew: Jehovah Elohim) who acts (Gen 2:4). This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all scriptures emphasize this. Jehovah is distinctly the redemptive name of Deity." Keeping this in mind: we get a better understanding of A.Paul's words to Timothy (1 Tim 2:3-6) etc"

The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria in place of the people of Israel." (2 Kings 17:24) These foreign races became the Samaritans we meet in Jesus' time. Josephus says they "are called in Hebrew 'Cutheans;' in Greek 'Samaritans.' (Antiquities: book IX, ch. XIV:3)

Clement of Alexandria states that pronunciation of the tetragramaton rest upon the Samaritan tradition because it was their god. Theology of Old testament page 39One problem with your theory. The tetragrammaton occurs in the accepted books of the Jewish Bible and Rabbinic literature. Are you now saying that the Jews have rejected their God of the OT and adopted that of the Samaritian.

John 4: 22 'You worship that which you don’t know".Thankyou for introducing this scripture into our discussion . It fits perfectly with the last paragraph of my original post.

You failed to complete the quotation, which goes on to say "We know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews."

Repeating the Scofield Reference Bible "It was God (Hebrew: Elohim) who said 'Let us make man in our image' (Gen 1:26) but when man is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Hebrew: Jehovah Elohim) who acts (Gen 2:4). This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all scriptures emphasize this. Jehovah is distinctly the redemptive name of Deity." And it is to the Jews that YHWH revealed his name.

Your quote of verse 22 needs context. In verse 21 Jesus tells the woman that the hour is coming when you shall...worship the Father." Then in verse 23 Jesus says "But the hour comes, and now is, when true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father seeks such to worship him.."

Further context: 25-42 to "The woman said to [Jesus], I know that the Messiah is coming who is called Christ; when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I that speak to you am he...the woman then left her waterpot...and saith to the men [of the city]...Is not this the Christ?...many of the Samaritians...believed on [Jesus] for the saying of the woman...[after hearing Jesus they] said we believe, not because of your saying, for we have heard him ourselves and know that this is indeed the cHrist, the Savior of the world". Very interesting thing about that Samaritan woman, she knew Jesus to be the Christ but the Pharisees, Scribes and Saducee plotted to kill him!

Now resolving the above back to topic: Jesus said he came in his Father's name? What is that name? Remember, it was YHWH who the Jews looked to for salvation and who promised to send the Messiah, through whom all would be saved. At least this much the Samaritan woman knew and expected.

Exactly- You are just guessing and guessing and have no idea. God and god and gods and spirit and spirit and you still have no idea. Yehovah and Yahwah and Yehweh and Yeheveh and the list goes on- just as Jesus said in John 4:22 Iesu, Iesus, Yeoshua, Joshua, Jesus and the list goes on. Linguistics prove nothing, other than in each language we give a distinctive name to the Father and his Son with which we can personally identify.

In effect by denying that Jesus' Father has a personal name as revealed to the Jews, you are calling Jesus a liar?

He said he both manifested and declared his Fathers name? And how is it that the Father "keep through your own name those whom you have given me"? (John 17:6,26,12). What is the Father's name if not YHVH?

Timothy Leary

November 19th 2005, 06:44 AM

Actually, the hebrew letter "ו" can be used as a "w" of sorts. Most scholars believed it to carry that sound originally, and this is how the Yemenite (and some of the Karaite) Jews pronounce it to this day.

Timothy Leary

November 19th 2005, 06:47 AM

Gods name is not 4 letters and 4 letters is not a name- and l see you changed from W to V. It's shows your confusion.

God's name is four letters - yud heh vav heh

Then second point, Most if not all Jews will disagree with your Jehovah- They say it is Yahwah- so it's confusion again.

Incorrect. Most Jews will not pronounce it at all, and find attempts to do so at best futile. However, I would agree with this poster's belief that the name is best pronounced as either Yehovah or Yehowah.

Timothy Leary

November 19th 2005, 06:49 AM

They did not, and you still quote "Jehovah" while they quote "Yahwah" and Yahveh and Yah and it goes on and on. So keep on guessing. Adonia was written to Kurios to Lord

Kind regards
John From Ebla

The word Yah is different than the tettragrammaton. The former is spelled Yud-heh, whereas the latter is spelled Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh. No one disputes the pronounciation of the former, whereas the latter is always disputed.

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 07:04 AM

I will! Though I'm still waiting for you to raise the one I ask of you from your left field "One Lord God and he is Jesus because there is only one Lord."

I apologise, my thought processes got carried away, writing as much to myself as to you. Consequently I was borderline of going off topic in the last paragraph of my post. However, the difference between your post and mine is that I was continuing a thought not radomly digressing onto a new subject.

To someone who may not have read my initial post, you misrepresent me by partial quotation. The context I was working in remained on topic "Of interest: The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) commenting on Ex 34:6 notes: "It is significant that the first appearance of the name Jehovah in Scriptures follows the creation of man. It was God (Hebrew: Elohim) who said 'Let us make man in our image' (Gen 1:26) but when man is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Hebrew: Jehovah Elohim) who acts (Gen 2:4). This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all scriptures emphasize this. Jehovah is distinctly the redemptive name of Deity." Keeping this in mind: we get a better understanding of A.Paul's words to Timothy (1 Tim 2:3-6) etc"?

The same could be said about my post "you misrepresent me by partial quotation" What did Jesus said Mathew 7:3? That is exactly what you did and still carry on with it.

One problem with your theory. The tetragrammaton occurs in the accepted books of the Jewish Bible and Rabbinic literature. Are you now saying that the Jews have rejected their God of the OT and adopted that of the Samaritian.

Thankyou for introducing this scripture into our discussion . It fits perfectly with the last paragraph of my original post.

You failed to complete the quotation, which goes on to say "We know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews.""?

The problem is with your theory- it’s about "confusion" one say's Yehovah, another Yahwah, another Yehweh and so on- and no, l did not need to complete the quote, in verse 27 it states how surprised the disciples (Jews) were, they had nothing to do with Samaritans. Salvation is not of the Jews, as she said, salvation is of God. All is of God.

The pronunciation of the tetragramaton rest upon the Samaritan tradition because it was their god. (Theology of Old testament page 39) John 4: 22 “ You worship that which you don’t know. Exactly- you are just guessing and guessing and have no idea.

Repeating the Scofield Reference Bible "It was God (Hebrew: Elohim) who said 'Let us make man in our image' (Gen 1:26) but when man is to fill the scene and become dominant over creation, it is the Lord God (Hebrew: Jehovah Elohim) who acts (Gen 2:4). This clearly indicates a special relation of Deity, in His Jehovah character, to man, and all scriptures emphasize this. Jehovah is distinctly the redemptive name of Deity." And it is to the Jews that YHWH revealed his name..""?

Would you like to start another thread for this- there is no w in Hebrew, the Samaritian did not know that, the four letters are "Babylonian Aramaic" and the Jews were in Egypt- Why do you think the LXX never treated it?

Now resolving the above back to topic: Jesus said he came in his Father's name? What is that name? Remember, it was YHWH who the Jews looked to for salvation and who promised to send the Messiah, through whom all would be saved. At least this much the Samaritan woman knew and expected.

Iesu, Iesus, Yeoshua, Joshua, Jesus and the list goes on. Linguistics prove nothing, other than in each language we give a distinctive name to the Father and his Son with which we can personally identify.

In effect by denying that Jesus' Father has a personal name as revealed to the Jews, you are calling Jesus a liar?
..""?

How about you calling Jesus a liar. Jesus taught us to say Father and so does Paul- no samaritian four letters. As for all your www.jewishencyclopedia.com- tell me what they say about Jesus. In 70 AD they were destroyed- when was there encyclopedia first out.? Clement of Alexandria is right. (Theology of Old testament page 39)

He said he both manifested and declared his Fathers name? And how is it that the Father "keep through your own name those whom you have given me"? (John 17:6,26,12). What is the Father's name if not YHVH?

So now you have gone back to the "V" while above you used 'W" - Confusion. What on earth is the name, you are only posting four letters. Are you a a sacred name fanatic now?

Kind regards
John From Ebla

Timothy Leary

November 19th 2005, 07:30 AM

John, are you suggesting that the tettragrammaton was an invention of the Shomerim (Samaritans)?

What do you mean by "the LXX never treated it?"?

chickenman

November 19th 2005, 08:06 AM

yes there is. its at the end

hebrew

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 08:36 AM

God's name is four letters - yud heh vav heh

Incorrect. Most Jews will not pronounce it at all, and find attempts to do so at best futile. However, I would agree with this poster's belief that the name is best pronounced as either Yehovah or Yehowah.

Yahwah and Yah is everywhere Just do a search on YahOOO :lol: Its just four letter.

apostoli

November 19th 2005, 08:38 AM

The same could be said about my post "you misrepresent me by partial quotation" What did Jesus said Mathew 7:3? That is exactly what you did and still carry on with it.The difference between us. I quoted your post in full (compare your/my post #2/3; 4/5; 6/7) and you will quickly see that I did not omit quoting (word for word) or replying to everything you posted.

The problem is with your theory- it’s about "confusion" one say's Yehovah, another Yahwah, another Yehweh and so on- and no, l did not need to complete the quote, in verse 27 it states how surprised the disciples (Jews) were, they had nothing to do with Samaritans. Salvation is not of the Jews, as she said, salvation is of God. All is of God.My confused friend, it was Jesus who said to the Samaritan woman "Salvation is of the Jews".

The pronunciation of the tetragramaton rest upon the Samaritan tradition because it was their god. (Theology of Old testament page 39) John 4: 22 I'll assume you have either miread the work or the authors you cite fabricated their evidence. The Jewish Encyclopedia says: The three forms quoted under [Iaoouee, Iaoue, Iabe] are merely three ways of writing the same word, [e.g. ?יהוה?] though "Iabe" is designated as the Samaritan pronunciation....In Clement of Alexandria's Stromata, Book V. Chapter 6:34, it says: "Further, the mystic name of four letters...is called Jave which is interpreted, "Who is and shall be."..." 2. Rudolf Kittel believed that the underlying Greek word that is translated as "Jave" was the Greek name "ιαου", not the Greek name "ιαουε". Rudolf Kittel wrote: " at Clemens of Alex. Strom. V, 6, 34, we read Ιαου , and not Ιαουαι or Ιαουε ." The passage above from the Stromata was also cited in a Latin Catena (collection of commentaries of the Fathers of the Church) on the Pentateuch by Francis Zephyrus. 4. Zephyrus's "Catena on the Pentateuch" was written in 1572. As Zephyrus was writing in Latin, he was likely to have used the conventional medieval Latin transliteration "Iehovah", when transliterating Clement's "ιαου".
http://iaoue.biography.ms/

“ You worship that which you don’t know. Exactly- you are just guessing and guessing and have no idea. :lol: I'm not the one who refutes Jesus words ""Salvation is of the Jews" attributing them to a Samaritan woman as you do above.

Would you like to start another thread for this- there is no w in Hebrew, the Samaritian did not know that, the four letters are "Babylonian Aramaic" and the Jews were in EgyptYou can start a new thread if you want. Your issue with the Aramiac is skewed. Neither Aramiac not Aramiac nor Hebrew have J or W. The four Hebrew characters as any Jew will tell you are in Hebrew! Your W thing is about transliteration into English/Latin.

Also, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia the mentioning of God's name, became an anathema about the time of the Babylonian exile, but the four characters remained in their scrolls.

Why do you think the LXX never treated it?Two reasons: firstly it was written in Greek not Hebrew and secondly the Jews won't even write the word G-d. However, that aside there is some evidence which suggests that the LXX did contain the tetragrammaton. The KJV (before its late 20th century revision) renders it at Ex 6:3; Ps 83:18, Isa 12:2 & 26:4 as Jehovah. Also in the KJV we have the compound words Jehovah-jireh, Jehovah-nissi and Jehovah-shalom(Gen 22:14; Ex 17:18, Judges 6:24). For whatever reason the Jews saw a neccessity to not conceal the name in these places.

How about you calling Jesus a liar. Jesus taught us to say Father and so does Paul- no samaritian four letters.Yes Jesus even taught us to pray to his Father, who is our Father and to his God, who is our God as the Apostle Paul did. (Mat 6:9; Luke 11:2; John 20:17; Eph 3:14-21). But Jesus also indicates his Father has a name. He said he came in his Father's name (Jn 5:43). He said he did his works in his Father's name (Jn 10:25) and that he manifested and declared his Father's name (Jn 17:6, 26) and asked his Father to keep the disciples "through your own name". What was the name?

As for all your www.jewishencyclopedia.com- tell me what they say about Jesus.Read it for yourself, here is the link...
Jesus of Nazareth
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J&search=Jesus

As for the tetragrammaton, Christian and secular sources relate the same thing as the JE but as you appealed to your own understanding of what Jews believe I let the Jews speak for themselves.

In 70 AD they were destroyed- when was there encyclopedia first out.?Lots of Jewish writing on their histories and biblical scholarship existed in the libraries of Alexandria, Antioch and even Rome. Best not to be anti-Jew. Remember Jesus, the apostles and the early disciples were all Jews.

Clement of Alexandria is right. (Theology of Old testament page 39)Glad you think so. Lets go to the source and see what he actually had to say...
"That mystic name which is called the Tetragrammaton, by which alone they who had access to the Holy of Holies were protected, is pronounced Jehovah, which means, "Who is, and who shall be."
FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html

So now you have gone back to the "V" while above you used 'W" - Confusion.As I said a couple of times in this thread in deference to your sensibilities I'll use YHVH which is one of the accepted dialetical transliterations of the Hebrew tetragrammaton.

What on earth is the name, you are only posting four letters.As I've posted numerously: the common accepted English translation is Jehovah. But as there are dialectical variations I adhere to modern practice of writing the consonants and allowing the reader to pronounce the name as their regional dialect requires.

Are you a a sacred name fanatic now?No.

Just as an observation: whenever you feel threatened you resort to personal attacks rather than the scriptures, reason and scholarship. Not a good witness to those viewing this thread who don't consider themselves Christians. Be aware of our viewers.

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 08:40 AM

yes there is. its at the end

hebrew

A classical joke- l love it.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

apostoli

November 19th 2005, 08:59 AM

yes there is. its at the end. hebrew :cheers: Good one!

John from Ebla

November 19th 2005, 10:50 AM

The difference between us. I quoted your post in full (compare your/my post #2/3; 4/5; 6/7) and you will quickly see that I did not omit quoting (word for word) or replying to everything you posted..

:ahem:

My confused friend, it was Jesus who said to the Samaritan woman "Salvation is of the Jews".

You said it, I just made the point that salvation is of God. Jesus say's salvation comes from the Jews- meaning he came as a descended of David, not from among the Samaritans. But salvation is of God.

I'll assume you have either miread the work or the authors you cite fabricated their evidence. The Jewish Encyclopedia says: The three forms quoted under [Iaoouee, Iaoue, Iabe] are merely three ways of writing the same word, [e.g. ?יהוה?] though "Iabe" is designated as the Samaritan pronunciation....In Clement of Alexandria's Stromata, Book V. Chapter 6:34, it says: "Further, the mystic name of four letters...is called Jave which is interpreted, "Who is and shall be."..." 2. Rudolf Kittel believed that the underlying Greek word that is translated as "Jave" was the Greek name "ιαου", not the Greek name "ιαουε". Rudolf Kittel wrote: " at Clemens of Alex. Strom. V, 6, 34, we read Ιαου , and not Ιαουαι or Ιαουε ." The passage above from the Stromata was also cited in a Latin Catena (collection of commentaries of the Fathers of the Church) on the Pentateuch by Francis Zephyrus. 4. Zephyrus's "Catena on the Pentateuch" was written in 1572. As Zephyrus was writing in Latin, he was likely to have used the conventional medieval Latin transliteration "Iehovah", when transliterating Clement's "ιαου".

"Yod- Hey-Vav" Funny, you can almost say “Yehovah” without the fourth Letter "heh". When you put in the forth it seems lost. What is the fourth letter for? Are you sure it not three letter? l beleive Clement and what he said about Samaritan.

:lol: I'm not the one who refutes Jesus words ""Salvation is of the Jews" attributing them to a Samaritan woman as you do above.

I made my point above.

You can start a new thread if you want. Your issue with the Aramiac is skewed. Neither Aramiac not Aramiac nor Hebrew have J or W. The four Hebrew characters as any Jew will tell you are in Hebrew! Your W thing is about transliteration into English/Latin.[QUOTE=apostoli]

You are the one bringing in the nature of Jesus, God or not God, and yet telling me to start a new thread if l wnat to say he is Lords of Lords and king of Kings- meaning there is no king or Lord above him.

[QUOTE=apostoli]
Also, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia the mentioning of God's name, became an anathema about the time of the Babylonian exile, but the four characters remained in their scrolls..

The 4 for letters which they say is 'Yahwah" is also mixed up with the moon goddess whom, according to the reproaches of Jeremiah (7: 18) the women of Israel poured out their drink-offerings, and burnt incense, and offered cakes, regarding her as the author of their national prosperity. It is the reason why they were scatered in 70 AD. Read Jeremiah 13:25 Clement has a valid point about the Samaritan.

(2 Kings 17:24) These foreign races became the Samaritans we meet in Jesus' time. Josephus says they "are called in Hebrew 'Cutheans;' in Greek 'Samaritans.' (Antiquities: book IX, ch. XIV:3) The Jews mixed up with them Jeremiah 13:25

Yes Jesus even taught us to pray to his Father, who is our Father and to his God, who is our God as the Apostle Paul did. (Mat 6:9; Luke 11:2; John 20:17; Eph 3:14-21). But Jesus also indicates his Father has a name. He said he came in his Father's name (Jn 5:43). He said he did his works in his Father's name (Jn 10:25) and that he manifested and declared his Father's name (Jn 17:6, 26) and asked his Father to keep the disciples "through your own name". What was the name?..

I am glad you agree.

What was the name?

What did they say and teach? Not four letters

Read it for yourself, here is the link...
Jesus of Nazareth
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=254&letter=J&search=Jesus

Will do. But l have a bible that tells me about Jesus.

As for the tetragrammaton, Christian and secular sources relate the same thing as the JE but as you appealed to your own understanding of what Jews believe I let the Jews speak for themselves.

l made my point above.

Lots of Jewish writing on their histories and biblical scholarship existed in the libraries of Alexandria, Antioch and even Rome. Best not to be anti-Jew. Remember Jesus, the apostles and the early disciples were all Jews..

Agree, and they said Jesus was the word of God- that was God.

Glad you think so. Lets go to the source and see what he actually had to say...
"That mystic name which is called the Tetragrammaton, by which alone they who had access to the Holy of Holies were protected, is pronounced Jehovah, which means, "Who is, and who shall be."
FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html

As I said a couple of times in this thread in deference to your sensibilities I'll use YHVH which is one of the accepted dialetical transliterations of the Hebrew tetragrammaton...

It's four letter. nothing more.

As I've posted numerously: the common accepted English translation is Jehovah. But as there are dialectical variations I adhere to modern practice of writing the consonants and allowing the reader to pronounce the name as their regional dialect requires....

"Yod-hey-Vah" l can do it in three letters.

Just as an observation: whenever you feel threatened you resort to personal attacks rather than the scriptures, reason and scholarship. Not a good witness to those viewing this thread who don't consider themselves Christians. Be aware of our viewers.

Agree, that is why watch what you say. E.g. When you say to me "your on drugs" and so on. People can see it is you saying it.

Kind regards
John from Ebla

apostoli

November 19th 2005, 03:25 PM

My confused friend, it was Jesus who said to the Samaritan woman "Salvation is of the Jews".You said it, I just made the point that salvation is of God. Jesus say's salvation comes from the Jews- meaning he came as a descended of David, not from among the Samaritans. But salvation is of God.Let us review the thread to see who said what.

John 4: 22 'You worship that which you don’t know". Exactly- You are just guessing and guessing and have no idea.You failed to complete the quotation, which goes on to say "We know what we worship; for salvation is of the Jews."The problem is with your theory- it’s about "confusion" one say's Yehovah, another Yahwah, another Yehweh and so on- and no, l did not need to complete the quote, in verse 27 it states how surprised the disciples (Jews) were, they had nothing to do with Samaritans. Salvation is not of the Jews, as she said, salvation is of God. All is of God.According to A.John Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews." The correct interpretation being that the salvation covenant was given to the Jews by God, and therefore is of God.

"Yod- Hey-Vav" Funny, you can almost say “Yehovah” without the fourth Letter "heh". When you put in the forth it seems lost. What is the fourth letter for? Are you sure it not three letter? l beleive Clement and what he said about Samaritan.Blaspheme the name of God all you like. No skin off my nose. But be aware the 4 letters represent God's revelation to Moses at Ex 3:14 "I am that I am". As for Clement I haven't found anything to support the spurious citation you provided.

The rest of your post is your own speculative, unsubstantiated nonsence and I haven't the time to do your research for you and respond. I'll leave it to someone else. So, you are the victor! The question is: victor of what?

Just as an observation: whenever you feel threatened you resort to personal attacks rather than the scriptures, reason and scholarship. Not a good witness to those viewing this thread who don't consider themselves Christians. Be aware of our viewers.Agree, that is why watch what you say. E.g. When you say to me "your on drugs" and so on. People can see it is you saying it.The trouble is most viewers perceive you that way. But I will desist from speculating on the cause of your incoherency.

Timothy Leary

November 19th 2005, 11:39 PM

Yahwah and Yah is everywhere Just do a search on YahOOO :lol: Its just four letter.

Yes, and those are christian websites - not jewish ones.

John from Ebla

November 20th 2005, 05:19 AM

Yes, and those are christian websites - not jewish ones.

1)I am a Hebrew- are you?
2) l know Yod- Hey- Vav- Hey, is that how you sound out the Name? And tell me, what do you know about Adonia?
3)How many names does God have in the Tanakh? Do you think His names are titles that discribes the nature of what he is? l think so- and l am not a sacred mame fanantic.

Why is it that all you can say is " Those are Chirstians Websites" Do you know Christians say Jesus is God- 95 % of the sites on "Yahoo" search engine for Yah, Yahwah or Yahweh deny Jesus or say he is not God. So what you said makes no sense. The Masoretic text has the vowels for Adonai inserted into the consonants YHWH so that the sacred name is not read. How can you it is Christians? Christians did not do the Masoretic text.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

Chytraeus

November 20th 2005, 02:47 PM

What exactly is the point of this dispute? Since the Masoretic Jews, from whom we have our current Hebrew text of the Old Testament, chose to add the vowels from the word "Adoni" to the four consonants that designated the Name of God, we do not know how to pronounce it anymore, so any attempts to add vowles is a guess. The word, "Jahova" was the first attempt, believing, as many Yiddish Jews taught, that the Hebrew letter second to the last in that word was a "Vav" and that the vowels for Adoni were in fact the correct vowels for the name, even though they don't really fit. However, we have since learned that those vowles were added to tell the reader to say the word "Adoni" instead of trying to say the name of God. Adoni means "Lord."

The fear of pronouncing the name of God was based on the second commandment (the third for the Hebrews) to never take the name of the Lord your God in vain. If you never pronounce it out loud, you can be assured of never taking it in vain. Unfortunately, this was a vain attempt to skirt the issue, because all those Pharisees and Saducees who claimed to be doing God's work while actually going about their own vain business of glorifying themselves were breaking the real meaning of the law, while believing that they were keeping it by not pronouncing the name.

Now, we know that many descendants of the Hebrews pronounce that thrid letter, "waw", while others pronounce it "vav". The fact that those who pronounce it "vav" lived in a culture whose language pronounced the letter "w" the way we pronounce the letter "v" may have effected the way they pronounced their own language. The vowles of Yahweh, pronounce that 3rd consant either the english or the german way, who cares, fit the Hebrew consants much better than the vowles of Jahovah. The fact that there are only certain vowles that can go with each consant in Hebrew is why they were able to skip writting the vowles for so many years. However, as more and more foriegn words, Babilonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Latin, began to filter into their language, the need for vowles became great enough that vowel points were added to aid in pronunciation.

Vowel points were used instead of actual new letters out of reverance for the inspired text. Since these were the very Words of God, and Deuteronomy 4 forbids adding anything to it, the vowles had to be place above or below the consonants rather than between them. Of course, more legalism, trying to avoid breaking a law that they were very much in the practice of actually breaking, since they required obedience to all kinds of "oral law" on top of the written laws, in essanse, adding to God's Word.

However, the original writting of the name always had exactly 4 consonants. The claim that Hebrew did not have that third consont at all, which is what I think you are trying to say, rather than that it was not pronounced as a "w", simply has no basis in fact. However, it is likely that originally both the letter "waw" and "yod" were used as old vowels, and later evolved into consants with use and years. No language is ever static, as each generation adds new words, changes the pronunciations of old words, changes the meanings of words, and abandons words. This was no less true for Hebrew, which was used by that nation for at least 2000 years.

This argument is just plain silly. We have no idea how to pronounce the old Hebrew name, and in this life we never will. It isn't important, as believing in God for whom He is, that is, the gracious Lord and Father who gave His only begotten Son to die for the sins of the world, is what matters. The English call Him God, the Germans call Him Gott, Greeks call Him Kurie, Hebrews say Adoni, while Arabs say Alla (not the god of the Muslims, who is also called Alla, which is not his name, but just a title falsely applied to him). What exactly we call God is not the point of faith at all.

Since we do not know how to pronounce the ancient name of God, I chose not to even try. I replace it with the word Lord or The Holy Name. Those who like to be known as "scholarly" use the form, The Holy Tetragramaton. I think that is a bit stuffy, and I have no need to put on such airs. If we would know God by a name today, the best name is probably Jesus, or Ye'shuah, the name God incarnate chose to bare while walking among His people. He is truly the Name of God anyway.

sonofyah

November 20th 2005, 10:46 PM

It seems to me that a different set of questions should be raised in reguards to this wonderful debate that has been going on for years.

1. What is the English equivelant to "Satan"
2. Why is Moshe the same in the Old and New Covenant?
3. Why do we need an English equivalent for Yahoshua(The name above EVERY NAME)
4. If Halleluyah is Hebrew and transliterated into every language with the same pronunciation, then why isnt the Name above every Name keeping its pronunciation?
5. Why is Adam the same in the Old and New Covenant? So is Enoch.
6.Why are we trying to Anglosize the Heavenly Fathers Name.

He is the Elohim of the Israelites and he existed before time. He revealed his Name in Hebrew, but that doesnt mean ITS HEBREW. Its a Heavenly Name because it came out of His mouth. Same as Yahshua, its revealed in Hebrew, but its not Hebrew its a Heavenly Name. You all are trying to limit him to Earth knowledge. This whole thing is very simple. If you ask him his Name he will tell you. I know his Name because he told me.

Timothy Leary

November 21st 2005, 01:29 AM

1)I am a Hebrew- are you?

What's it to you?

2) l know Yod- Hey- Vav- Hey, is that how you sound out the Name?

If you want to.

And tell me, what do you know about Adonia?

Adonia is a place in Australia.

3)How many names does God have in the Tanakh?

Depends on what you mean by "name".

Do you think His names are titles that discribes the nature of what he is? l think so- and l am not a sacred mame fanantic.

I would agree with you, and I'm not a sacred namer either.

Why is it that all you can say is " Those are Chirstians Websites" Do you know Christians say Jesus is God- 95 % of the sites on "Yahoo" search engine for Yah, Yahwah or Yahweh deny Jesus or say he is not God. So what you said makes no sense.

And virtually all of those websites also proclaim Jesus/Yeshua/Yehoshua/Yahushua (or whatever wierd pronunciation you choose) as the Messiah. They're Christians, just not in the orthodox sense.

The Masoretic text has the vowels for Adonai inserted into the consonants YHWH so that the sacred name is not read.

Are you sure about that? What if I said the vowels were not the same in each word?

How can you it is Christians? Christians did not do the Masoretic text.

I never claimed that Christians created the Masoretic text - au contraire, it is taken from the mss of a family of Karaites.

John from Ebla

November 21st 2005, 02:53 AM

apostoli

November 21st 2005, 04:43 AM

Hi Chytraeus,

I agree with the majority of what you said in your post. Except in one point...

Since we do not know how to pronounce the ancient name of God, I chose not to even try. I replace it with the word Lord or The Holy Name. Those who like to be known as "scholarly" use the form, The Holy Tetragramaton. I think that is a bit stuffy, and I have no need to put on such airs. If we would know God by a name today, the best name is probably Jesus, or Ye'shuah, the name God incarnate chose to bare while walking among His people. He is truly the Name of God anyway.The words God, Lord/Adonai and even Jesus are common names applied by men to designate generic things. The Spanish translation of the Bible illustrates my point: there Kyrios=Lord is translated Senor. The name Jesus in many nations is given to boy childs and treated as a common name - in English it is generally translated as "Jehovah is Salvation".

In contrast: The significance of what is called the Tetragrammaton, is it has been recognised for several thousand years before and after the Christian era as the Unique name of God. At Gen 15:13 it is rendered "Adonai YHWH=Lord Jehovah read as Lord God". At Exodos 3:15 as "YHVH ELOHIM=Jehovah God read as Lord God." The Jewish Encyclopedia says in the Hebrew scriptures adonai (also constructed with four Hebrew characters) occurs 134 times in isolation and 315 times in combination with the Tetragrammaton, whereas the Tetragrammaton itself occurs 5,410 times. These stats only should indicate that the "unique name of God" should be given our recognition.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=165&letter=T
For the Hebrew and English renderings of Gen 15:2 & Ex 3:15 see these links
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132375151-4894.html#4
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1132375068-7621.html#2

My view: whereas we personalise the Son of God by giving him a name, we impersonalise the Father of Jesus by denying him a name.

Whether you believe in the Orthodox Trinity, the Catholic Trinity or you are a oneness believer, the name of God is that revealed in the OT. According to the NT, Jesus is the Son of God and his Father is he that was revealed as true by the prophets (which includes Moses) and whom Jesus came to declare!

Timothy Leary

November 22nd 2005, 05:39 AM

l was alway taught that Paleo Hebrew (ancient Hebrew) had no vowels.

With the exception of the so-called "vowel letters", you would be correct. You didn't need them. They still aren't needed, except for begginners who are learning the language.

apostoli

November 23rd 2005, 11:08 PM

All,

"Yod-Hey-Vav" Funny, you can almost say “Yehovah” without the fourth Letter "heh". When you put in the forth it seems lost. What is the fourth letter for? Are you sure it not three letter?Both Josephus & Clement of Alexander say the name of God is four letters.

In post #6 he appeals to Josephus and Clement of Alexandria to support his opinions. I've investigated his cites and found them to be fabrications. I discuss this below...

The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Cuthah, Avva, Hamath, and Sepharvaim, and placed them in the cities of Samaria in place of the people of Israel." (2 Kings 17:24) These foreign races became the Samaritans we meet in Jesus' time. Josephus says they "are called in Hebrew 'Cutheans;' in Greek 'Samaritans.' (Antiquities: book IX, ch. XIV:3)JFE does not make any commentary so we can only speculate why he makes this statement and then cites Josephus. Based on JFE's other posts he seems to think all the Jews adopted the practices of the Samarians. The cite for Josephus only relates to the bit "are called in Hebrew 'Cutheans;'" and is wrongly cited (the actual quote is in paragraph one not three). The rest of what JFE says is from 2 Kings 17:24. When Samaria is mentioned, it is refering to the land of the 10 tribes of the Northern Kindom not the Sothern Kingdom of Judah & Benjamin which, under Hezekiah, was under God's protection (see 2 Kings 18:4-7). Josephus gives a move diplomatic and exagerated version of 2 Kings, well worth a read.

The complete works of Josepheus are available online (you can read them online or download a zip) at
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/JOSEPHUS.HTM

While we are on Josephus, one point of interest: JFE omited to reveal that Josephus himself acknowledges the "the sacred name of God", which he says was engraved on the high priests mitre.A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his head, which was tied by a blue ribbon, about which there was another golden crown, in which was engraven the sacred name [of God]: it consists of four vowels. However, the high priest did not wear these garments at other times, but a more plain habit; he only did it when he went into the most sacred part of the temple, which he did but once in a yearMost of us have been taught that the tetragrammaton is four consonants, not four vowels as Josephus says. This is paricular true in the languages that use the Latin alphabet (eg: English). In the case of Hebrew: the latter can be true in a non-Masoretic text (original Hebrew) and the other is true in the case of the Masoretic text. The Wikipedia Encyclopedia's article on the Tetragrammaton sheds some light "Josephus' teaching that the sacred name "consists of four vowels" may be valid in a Hebrew text that has no vowel points, but in a Hebrew Text that has vowel points [e.g. a Masoretic Text], there are Biblical Hebrew grammar rules that do not allow a yod that begins a Hebrew word to be used as a vowel letter. Therefore, the initial yod in the Tetragrammaton would have to represent a Y sound." In other words modern Hebrew has both consonents (the letters) and vowel markings. Ancient Hebrew didn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

As an introduction to JFE's next proof of his opinion it is worth noting his post #18 to determine the level of his scholarship and how much he relies on his own opinion.

"Yod-Hey-Vav" Funny, you can almost say “Yehovah” without the fourth Letter "heh". When you put in the forth it seems lost. What is the fourth letter for? Are you sure it not three letter? l beleive Clement and what he said about Samaritan...The 4 for letters which they say is 'Yahwah' is also mixed up with the moon goddess whom, according to the reproaches of Jeremiah (7: 18) the women of Israel poured out their drink-offerings, and burnt incense, and offered cakes, regarding her as the author of their national prosperity. It is the reason why they were scatered in 70 AD. Read Jeremiah 13:25 Clement has a valid point about the Samaritan. (2 Kings 17:24) These foreign races became the Samaritans we meet in Jesus' time. Josephus says they "are called in Hebrew 'Cutheans;' in Greek 'Samaritans.' (Antiquities: book IX, ch. XIV:3) The Jews mixed up with them Jeremiah 13:25It is a bit of a mystery what prompted JFE's "Yod-Hey-Vav" comment. Possibly it was directed at dead.hobbits post #9 which relates "God's name is four [hebrew] letters - yud heh vav heh". In my experience: When JFE feels threatened he has a tendency to try to change subject.

As we can see from JFE's post #18, he also misrepresents the scriptures. Concerning Jeremiah 17:18, JFE ignores vs 19-34 where YHWH God says (vs 20) "Behold my anger and my fury will be poured out upon this place". Also in opposition to JFE's assertion that "The 4 for letters which they say is 'Yahwah' is also mixed up with the moon goddess" Jeremiah tells us (vs 29, 30) "YHWH has rejected and forsaken [this] generation...For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith YHWH; they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it." YHWH then goes on to decree punishment.

Another point: JFE does not substantiate his opinion, but just makes a "left field" statement that "Yahwah is also mixed up with the moon goddess". That aside: to be charitable I have to assume he is ignorant of the fact, that if his assertion is true then "Jesus is mixed up with Tummuz her son". On the evidence of the scriptures I reject both propositions.

Lets now have a look at JFE's assertions concerning Clement of Alexandria.

Clement of Alexandria states that pronunciation of the tetragramaton rest upon the Samaritan tradition because it was their god. (Theology of Old testament page 39)I haven't been able to find JFE's source "Theology of Old testament", there are several books with similar titles but none seem to discuss Clement. In my research, I am yet to find anyone that suggests that Clement of Alexander made any remarks regarding the origins of the tetragrammaton, or that he makes reference to it as the name of the Samaritan god. Clement alluded to the Tetragrammaton in book V of his series titled "The Stromata".

A complete translation of Clement of Alexander's, "The Stromata", is available online at
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0210.htm

In the Stromata, the only time Clement comments on what he calls the "the mystic name of four letters" corresponds with Josephus' comment (see above) regarding the temple...

Again, there is the veil of the entrance into the holy of holies. Four pillars there are, the sign of the sacred tetrad of the ancient covenants. Further, the mystic name of four letters which was affixed to those alone to whom the adytum was accessible, is called [COLOR=BLUE]Jave[/FONT], which is interpreted, "Who is and shall be." The name of God, too, among the Greeks contains four letters.The "controversy" surrounding this quote is (as several encyclopedias relate) that "the reconstructed pronunciation of the 'mystic name' is based in large part on various Greek transcriptions (iaoue and iaouai and Iabe) dating from the first centuries BC and AD. Particularly cited is Clement of Alexandria's spelling of the Tetragrammaton in his Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, but questions have been raised about whether or not he used "iaou" - see Iaoue. The Encyclopedia Britannica's footnotes say that the variants iaoue and iaouai and iaou can be found in some edition of Clement of Alexandria's Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6. It then specifies a specific edition where the variant iaou can be found.
- Greek Codex Laurentianus V 3, an eleventh-century manuscript. Thus the controversy: the variants "iaoue and iaouai" support the transliteration "Yahwah" but the 11th century rendition "iaou" does not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaoue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

In the context of our discussion of JFE's assertions: The most interesting thing about knowing about Clement's writings is that he did not use the Samaritan rendering "Iabe". Thus JFE's understanding that "Clement of Alexandria states that pronunciation of the tetragramaton rest upon the Samaritan tradition because it was their god" is proved to be in gross error, for two reasons: 1. Clement never commented on the Samaritan use of the "mystic name" 2. None of the variants to the Clement manuscripts use "Iabe" which is the Samaritan pronunciation.

At this point it might be worth noting what the Jewish Encyclopedia has to says on the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton: "Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name 'Iabe'. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iaoue or 'Iaouai, and Origen, 'Ia'. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11"
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=N&search=YHWH

There is another reference to Clement commenting on the Tetragrammaton, which is derived from "The Catena on the Pentateuch, published in Latin by Francis Zephyrus and translated by REV. WILLIAM WILSON, M.A. "That mystic name which is called the Tetragrammaton, by which alone they who had access to the Holy of Holies were protected, is pronounced Jehovah, which means, "Who is, and who shall be."
FRAGMENTS OF CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html

While we are discussing Clement: two passages from book 6 of the Stromata illustrate his opinion of the "mystic name" which gives an insight into why its use is suppressed by both Jews and Christians...

[Chapter XVI, paragraph 15]The second word intimated that men ought not to take and confer the august power of God (which is the name, for this alone were many even yet capable of learning), and transfer His title to things created and vain, which human artificers have made, among which" He that is" is not ranked. For in His uncreated identity, "He that is" is absolutely alone.But human teachers, speaking of God, are not reliable, as men. For he that is man cannot speak worthily the truth concerning God: the feeble and mortal [cannot speak worthily] of the Unoriginated and Incorruptible -- the work, of the Workman. Then he who is incapable of speaking what is true respecting himself, is he not much less reliable in what concerns God? For just as far as man is inferior to God in power, so much feebler is man's speech than Him; although he do not declare God, but only speak about God and the divine word. For human speech is by nature feeble, and incapable of uttering God. I do not say His name. For to name it is common, not to philosophers only, but also to poets. Nor [do I say] His essence; for this is impossible, but the power and the works of God.

John from Ebla

November 23rd 2005, 11:21 PM

With the exception of the so-called "vowel letters", you would be correct. You didn't need them. They still aren't needed, except for begginners who are learning the language.

l agree. l assume you speak Hebrew and l just want to know your view. "hyh" means "I am" No debate, just like to hear your view.

Kiind Regards
John From Ebla