JFE: Rev 5:7. One Lord God.

[apostoli]

This thread is an attempt to focus on a "single topic" and is a continuation of Apostoli's and John from Elber's conversation on the thread "More Anti-Trin Argument." Apostoli is arguing from an orthodox view of the trinity. JFE (?)

Apostoli, Please answer Rev 5:7Wasn't sure what you wanted me to comment on, so I traced back to your original question in post #305. Turns out I already answered you in post #307. Here is the dialogue...
“The Lamb took the scroll from the right hand of him Who sat on the throne” Rev 5:7” Does God have a visible right hand.?Figuratively I see no reason why he shouldn't!

You then pursue this Rev 5:7 thing, throughout your post #308.

Firstly, most of your questions in your post #308 are repetitions and from my viewpoint were already answered in my post #307. In regards to Revelation I said "Unless you believe the Lamb is going to take the new Jerusalem as his bride and get married to a city, you'd realize that Revelation is an inspired vision full of symbolism (Rev 21)" Thus the thrones, body parts etc described in John's visions and related to us in Revelation are symbolic...

You obviously see something special in Rev 5:7 as you pursue it throughout your post. So, lets have a look...

1) Then who is [on the throne]?The God of the Lamb sits upon the throne, and the Lamb is in its midst.Yes, but you have not answered the question. How does the Lamb take the scroll for his right had? Rev 5:7 You said God is not visible and does not have body parts-and you said heaven was his throne, which l agree too.Pointedly: You hadn't previously asked the question "How does the Lamb take the scroll from his right hand?" So forgive me for not answering a question you had yet to ask. My reply is simple: Rev 5:7 doesn't reveal how. As the text refers to the Lamb, and lambs can only grasp things with their mouth, then we can speculate it was with his mouth. But as I said in my post #307, Revelation is full of symbolism.

Lets continue reviewing your post #308 and your pursuit of Rev 5:7...

You said God (father) is spirit and if the heaven of Heaven cannot contain himJesus says heaven "is God's throne" and the earth "is his footstool" (Matt 5:34-35;).Agree, but what about Rev 5:7 Presume you are focused on the word "throne". Repeat: Revelation is symbolic. Is the Lamb going to marry a city (Rev 21)? Did Jesus lie at Matt 5:34? Or is heaven the size of a chair?
1)God and 2)Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) explain Rev 5:7Exactly! God who is on the throne is one. The Lamb is another.
It's a little like the majestic plurality of the one ( Echad ) God- this does not imply " two gods or three gods or lesser gods as "you" believe. It is the One GOD as suggested in Genesis 18:2-3, "shloshah anashim" ("three men") are called "Adonai" ("Lord" i.e. God), using the intensive plural in the first person singular pronominal suffix, "my," which is translated here as "My Lord"Well if you are relating all this to Rev 5:7 I must agree. The Lamb who is not identified as God in Revelation, took the scroll from "him that sat upon the throne". The later in Revelation is deemed God. Rev 7:9-10 "[a great multitude] cried with a loud voice, saying Salvation to our God and unto the Lamb." Note the Lamb is not called God.
The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads." (Revelation 22:1-4).Presume your focus is on the phrase "the throne of God and of the Lamb". Read Rev 4:1-5:10. Notice: verse 4:2 "I was in the Spirit and behold, a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne". verse 4:4 "And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones, and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders" verse 4:6 "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne were four living creatures" Now pay particular attention to 5:6&9 "In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb...And they sang a new song...thou wast slain and has redeemed us to God by thy blood...And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests, and we shall rule upon the earth." Now have a look at Rev 3:21 notice that Christ says "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
Brings to mind Jesus' words to his Father (John 17:21-23) "that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me."
One Lord God. Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings- there is no Lord or King above him.1 Cor 15:24-28 creates a major problem for your theory: "Then cometh the end, when [Christ] shall deliver up the kingdom to God, [his] Father" and "the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him". Also note vs 27 where it says God put all things under Jesus, except himself.
"I and The Father are One" One GODJohn 17:21-23 creates a major problem for your theory: It says "...I pray for those...who shall believe on me...that they all may be one, as you Father, are in me, and I in thee, they also may be one in us...And the glory which you have given me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one"

[John from Ebla]

Lets continue reviewing your post #308 and your pursuit of Rev 5:7...

Presume you are focused on the word "throne". Repeat: Revelation is symbolic. Is the Lamb going to marry a city (Rev 21)? Did Jesus lie at Matt 5:34? Or is heaven the size of a chair?
Exactly! God who is on the throne is one. The Lamb is another. ]"

l will discuss Rev 21 after you select one of two positions l have noted below- or amend it to the way you like. l have posted my position at the end of this post and l will stick to that through out

l am saying 1)God and 2)Lamb
...The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads." (Revelation 22:1-4).

1)God and 2)Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we sevre and see the face of singular is singular "One"

Just as Jesus always said "l and the Father are One"



Well if you are relating all this to Rev 5:7 I must agree. The Lamb who is not identified as God in Revelation, took the scroll from "him that sat upon the throne"

Good and l agree, but as pointed out above, they are one "singular". Does God have a right hand. ( l can quote many verses that say Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God- and then Steven, he saw the son of man at the right hand of God Acts 7:55)


The later in Revelation is deemed God. Rev 7:9-10 "[a great multitude] cried with a loud voice, saying Salvation to our God and unto the Lamb." Note the Lamb is not called God.

Agree but verse 10 say's God is seated on the throne, which the elders are around and the Lamb amongst them- please decide which position you want to take. 1) Heaven is His throne and he does not sit on a throne that is surrounded by elders and the lamb amongst them or 2) He is seated on the throne that has Elders around them and the lamb amongst them- this is also in agreement with Rev 5:7

My posstion is: (Revelation 22:1-4). which is at the end as 1 Cor 15:24-28 The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son
1)God and 2)Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we sevre and see the face of singular is singular "One"

Just as Jesus always said "l and the Father are One" One Lord and God. Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and God- You is singular but worthy is the Lord and God.



Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

l will discuss Rev 21 after you select one of two positions l have noted below...My position is: (Revelation 22:1-4). which is at the end as 1 Cor 15:24-28 The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son
1)God and 2)Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we sevre and see the face of singular is singular "One"

Just as Jesus always said "l and the Father are One" One Lord and God. Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and God- You is singular but worthy is the Lord and God.Before we branch off to Rev 21. Would you expand on your view of Rev 22:1-5.

Possibly, we have common ground in regards to your statement "The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son"

[John from Ebla]

Before we branch off to Rev 21. Would you expand on your view of Rev 22:1-5.

Possibly, we have common ground in regards to your statement "The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son"

What is to expand?

My position is: Revelation 22:1-4. which is at the end as 1 Cor 15:24-28 The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son
1)God and 2)Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One"

Please state the position you are taking regarding the throne of God .
1) Heaven is His throne and he does not sit on a throne that is surrounded by elders and the lamb amongst them

2) He is seated on the throne that has Elders around them and the lamb amongst them- this is also in agreement with Rev 5:7

3)state another positions.

1 say, 1 and 2 are both correct and l accept both.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

What is to expand?Your understanding of "The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son" . Your stated position is ambiguous and does not reveal the "how" or the "what".

My position is: Revelation 22:1-4. which is at the end as 1 Cor 15:24-28 The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son
1)God and 2)Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One"As stated you seem to introduce a third personality the "him". Please clarify.

Please state the position you are taking regarding the throne of God . 1) Heaven is His throne and he does not sit on a throne that is surrounded by elders and the lamb amongst them. 2) He is seated on the throne that has Elders around them and the lamb amongst them- this is also in agreement with Rev 5:7 3)state another positions. 1 say, 1 and 2 are both correct and l accept both.
I don't reject the symbolism of the options you propose, John says he was "in the Spirit" when he saw what you allude to. My position, in regards to the Revelation, is that stated from Rev 4:1 to 5:14 which accords with 1 Cor 15:24-28 and Zechariah 14:7-11.

[John from Ebla]

Your understanding of "The Kingdom is God and The Lamb/Son" . Your stated position is ambiguous and does not reveal the "how" or the "what".

As stated you seem to introduce a third personality the "him". Please clarify.

I don't reject the symbolism of the options you propose, John says he was "in the Spirit" when he saw what you allude to. My position, in regards to the Revelation, is that stated from Rev 4:1 to 5:14 which accords with 1 Cor 15:24-28 and Zechariah 14:7-11.

If you want to discuss then l am happy to do- but you seem to be avoiding my question.

Please state the position you are taking regarding the throne of God:
1) Heaven is His throne and he does not sit on a throne that is surrounded by elders and the lamb amongst them

2) He is seated on the throne that has Elders around them and the lamb amongst them- this is also in agreement with Rev 5:7

3)state another positions.

l accept One and two both are correct.

1 Cor 15:24-28 is the end as is Revelation 22:1-41) God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One" Just as Jesus said, "I and the Father are One" John 13:9b "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" So Please explain? who's face do we see?.



Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

If you want to discuss then l am happy to do- but you seem to be avoiding my question.

Please state the position you are taking regarding the throne of God
I already did twice.

My position, in regards to the Revelation, is that stated from Rev 4:1 to 5:14 which accords with 1 Cor 15:24-28 and Zechariah 14:7-11.

Rev 4:2 "[A.John] was in the Spirit and [beheld], a throne set in heaven and one sat on the throne". verse 4:4 "And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones, and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders" verse 4:6 "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne were four living creatures" verse 5:6&9 "In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb...And they sang a new song...thou wast slain and has redeemed us to God by thy blood...And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests, and we shall rule upon the earth." Now have a look at Rev 3:21 notice that Christ says "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The two options you offer are your interpretations unsopported by A.John's words and contradict each other. I took your option 3 and took a scriptural position that is the context A.John tells us about.

[apostoli]

In the thread JFE: YHWH - "there is no W in Hebrew" post #6 you said...
You really do have a double standard. Please start another thread for what you wrote above.
As requested I've raised the thread:
title: JFE - Tim,Titus,Cor - One God & One Lord
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1276528#post1276528

Also....

In your post #316 on the thread "More Anti-Trin Argument" as quoted in post #1 on this thread two additional topics are introduced. So I have raised two new threads to discuss these.

title: JFE - 1 Cor 15:24-28 - One Lord God
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1276478#post1276478

title: JFE - John 17:21-23 - One Lord God
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=1276503#post1276503

[John from Ebla]

I already did twice.



Rev 4:2 "[A.John] was in the Spirit and [beheld], a throne set in heaven and one sat on the throne". verse 4:4 "And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones, and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders" verse 4:6 "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne were four living creatures" verse 5:6&9 "In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb...And they sang a new song...thou wast slain and has redeemed us to God by thy blood...And hast made us unto our God a kingdom of priests, and we shall rule upon the earth." Now have a look at Rev 3:21 notice that Christ says "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.".

Good, this means you agree that heaven is his throne, not a single chair . You have taken Option 1

Now please explain (Revelation 22:1-41) which is the end- the Kingdom belongs to God as in 1 Cor 15:24-28

(Revelation 22:1-41)
God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One"

Who's face do we See and serve? Him and His is a singular personal pronoun- menaing One- just as Jesus said, "[I]I and the Father are One[/I "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" John 13:9

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

Good, this means you agree that heaven is his throne, not a single chair . You have taken Option 1I've taken your option 3. My position is that stated a Rev 4. John was having a vision. In the vision John saw a throne located in heaven. God sat on the throne. There were 24 other thrones. verse 4:6 "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne were four living creatures" verse 5:6&9 "In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb".

Now please explain (Revelation 22:1-41) which is the end- the Kingdom belongs to God as in 1 Cor 15:24-28 Rev 3:21 notice that Christ says "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

(Revelation 22:1-41)
God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One"Yes the God that was on the throne in Chapter 4. That identified in Rev 3 as the Christ's Father.

Who's face do we See and serve? Him and His is a singular personal pronoun- menaing One- just as Jesus said, "[I]I and the Father are One[/I "anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" John 13:9The Father's. The God of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:17; John 20:17)

[John from Ebla]

I've taken your option 3. My position is that stated a Rev 4. John was having a vision. In the vision John saw a throne located in heaven. God sat on the throne. There were 24 other thrones. verse 4:6 "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne were four living creatures" verse 5:6&9 "In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb"

You have not. You said heaven is his throne, not a seat in Heaven.


Rev 3:21 notice that Christ says "To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

Yes the God that was on the throne in Chapter 4. That identified in Rev 3 as the Christ's Father."

How does his sit on a throne- he is Spirit. You cannot even define the god you claim you believe in.. Answer, Is Heaven his throne or is he on a seat in heaven? make up your mind


Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

I've taken your option 3. My position is that stated a Rev 4. John was having a vision. In the vision John saw a throne located in heaven. God sat on the throne. There were 24 other thrones. verse 4:6 "in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne were four living creatures" verse 5:6&9 "In the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders stood a Lamb".You have not.Oh yes I have! I've taken option 3: other, because as I said in post #7 "The two options you offer are your interpretations unsupported by A.John's words and contradict each other." I have taken an unambiguous scriptural position that utilises the words of A.John.

How does his sit on a throne- he is Spirit.A.John was having a vision. It isn't a literal discription of physical things. A.John also speaks of "seven spirits of God" and there being a "sea of glass" before the throne and about the Lamb being married etc etc etc.

You cannot even define the god you claim you believe inYes I can! And my definition agrees with the scriptures 100%, without ambiguity or contradiction. My God is "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 1:3, 17; 3:14 etc etc etc etc etc etc).

Answer, Is Heaven his throne or is he on a seat in heaven? make up your mindAs we discussed previously it is said "figuratively" that heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool. If you are referring to John's vision in Revelation then again we have a "figurative" description. If Rev isn't figurative and is to be taken literally then the Lamb is going to marry a city.

[John from Ebla]

Oh yes I have! I've taken option 3: other, because as I said in post #7 "The two options you offer are your interpretations unsupported by A.John's words and contradict each other." I have taken an unambiguous scriptural position that utilises the words of A.John..

You said heaven is his throne, so who do we see?
(Revelation 22:1-41)
1)God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One".




A.John was having a vision. It isn't a literal discription of physical things. A.John also speaks of "seven spirits of God" and there being a "sea of glass" before the throne and about the Lamb being married etc etc etc..

The prophets had visions and so did the apostles. So stop beating around the bush- you said heaven said his throne! who do we see?

(Revelation 22:1-41)
1)God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One"


Yes I can! And my definition agrees with the scriptures 100%, without ambiguity or contradiction. My God is "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 1:3, 17; 3:14 etc etc etc etc etc etc).

gods and gods and many gods is your way. You said Heaven is throne, so who is surrounded by 24 Elders and the Lamb?


As we discussed previously it is said "figuratively" that heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool. If you are referring to John's vision in Revelation then again we have a "figurative" description. If Rev isn't figurative and is to be taken literally then the Lamb is going to marry a city.

"figuratively" If so, then hwo can you claim the Lamb is not called God- by pick nicking what you like? Mathew 5:8b "the pure in heart, for they shall see God"
Who de we see? you said Heaven is his throne.

(Revelation 22:1-41)
1)God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One".

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

Thus You said heaven is his throne, so who do we see? (Revelation 22:1-41) 1)God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One".I just repeated what the scriptures say figuratively. In verse 22:4 "his face" that is seen refers to God's face not the Lamb's or any combination. See Rev 20:11-12 it is quite specific.As for the throne: according to Rev 3:21 those that have overcome as the Lamb had, sit with the Lamb in his throne, as the Lamb is "set down with my Father in his throne." So using your literism, God's throne is pretty crowded.
PS: Revelation 22 in the Christian bible only has 21 verses.

A.John was having a vision. It isn't a literal discription of physical things. A.John also speaks of "seven spirits of God" and there being a "sea of glass" before the throne and about the Lamb being married etc etc etc..The prophets had visions and so did the apostles. So stop beating around the bush- you said heaven said his throne! who do we see? Revelation 22:1-41) 1)God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One"Yep, there were a couple of prophets that had visions of heaven, but the only apostle that had a vision of heaven was John.
In verse 22:4 "his face" that is seen refers to God's face not the Lamb's or any combination of faces. See Rev 20:11-12 it is quite specific.
My definition [of God] agrees with the scriptures 100%, without ambiguity or contradiction. My God is "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 1:3, 17; 3:14 etc etc etc etc etc etc).gods and gods and many gods is your way. You said Heaven is throne, so who is surrounded by 24 Elders and the Lamb?As I have consistently responded every time you ask this question. God sits on the throne (Rev 7:10, 4:8 etc)

As we discussed previously it is said "figuratively" that heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool. If you are referring to John's vision in Revelation then again we have a "figurative" description. If Rev isn't figurative and is to be taken literally then the Lamb is going to marry a city."figuratively" If so, then hwo can you claim the Lamb is not called God- Well firstly, nowhere is the Lamb called God in Revelation and next because Rev 5:9-10 says of the Lamb that he "has redeemed us to God" by his blood and "has made us unto our God a kingdom of priests" and Rev 21:1-2 says the new Jerusalem who is to be wed to the Lamb came "down from God out of heaven".
by pick nicking what you like?I don't nick pick, I just relate correlated scriptures which clearly explain the isolated scriptures you present. It is good thing that you are getting frustrated by the scriptural evidence. It might tempt you to read the bible.
Mathew 5:8b "the pure in heart, for they shall see God"And "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God." Matthew 5:9. What is your point?
Who do we see? you said Heaven is his throne. (Revelation 22:1-41)
1)God and 2)Son/Lamb - serve him ( "Him" is singular) see his face ( "His" is singular) The one who we serve and see the face is singular "One". The end hasn't come yet! So, we (at the moment) do not see anything but when the end does we shall see the face of God, the Father our our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rev 3:21;7:10; 20:11-12).

As A.Paul says at Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ."

[John from Ebla]

I just repeated what the scriptures say figuratively. In verse 22:4 "his face" that is seen refers to God face."

One minute you say God is spirit and no man can see- the next minute you are saying it's God’s face we see. This shows how confused you are. Does your god now have a face? You said previously God has no appearance and is invisible.

Are you agreeing with John 14:9 "any one that seen me has seen the Father" You seem to be a ball of confusion.


As I have consistently responded every time you ask this question. God sits on the throne (Rev 7:10, 4:8 etc)."

Oh Dear, here we go again. One minute you say God is spirit and no man can see- the next minute you are saying it's God’s face we see. This shows how confused you are. Does your god now have a face? You said previously God has no appearance and is invisible.


Well firstly, nowhere is the Lamb called God in Revelation and next because Rev 5:9-10 says of the Lamb that he "has redeemed us to God"

You say revelation figurative, so how can you say it does not mean the lamb is not God. Make up your mind, is it figurative or not? Are your pick nicking to have thngs look the way you wnat them.


I don't nick pick, I just relate correlated scriptures which clearly explain the isolated scriptures you present. It is good thing that you are getting frustrated by the scriptural evidence."

Make you your mind, figurative of not? Can we see God or not?


It might tempt you to read the bible.
And "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God." Matthew 5:9. What is your point?."

Matthew 5:8' "for they shall see God" make yo your Mind Do when see him on the Throne or Not? Is revelation figurative of not? Are you you just making it the way you like?


Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

I just repeated what the scriptures say figuratively. In verse 22:4 "his face" that is seen refers to God's face not the Lamb's or any combination. See Rev 20:11-12 it is quite specific. As for the throne: according to Rev 3:21 those that have overcome as the Lamb had, sit with the Lamb in his throne, as the Lamb is "set down with my Father in his throne." So using your literism, God's throne is pretty crowded.
PS: Revelation 22 in the Christian bible only has 21 verses.One minute you say God is spirit and no man can see- the next minute you are saying it's God’s face we see. This shows how confused you are. Does your god now have a face? You said previously God has no appearance and is invisible. My confused friend. A.Paul says "The things of God, knows no man" (1 Cor 2:11). So, when we say God is Spirit or God is Love or we felt his hand, these are just words to describe man's perception of his existence in our lives. Does God have a face, in John's vision he is said to, but remember John was having an inspired vision. As a Hebrew you of all people should know of the idiom, in which to see the Kings face is used.

Don't feel threatened by the scriptures, they are there to teach us and guide us to truth.

Are you agreeing with John 14:9 "any one that seen me has seen the Father" You seem to be a ball of confusion.Most definitely. Through Jesus we hear the teaching God gave him, we find the love of God, we find the single mindness of God, and we experience the patience, longsuffering etc of God. As A.Paul says Jesus is an exact copy of God's nature. (Heb 1:3 NJB)
As I have consistently responded every time you ask this question. God sits on the throne (Rev 7:10, 4:8 etc).Oh Dear, here we go again. One minute you say God is spirit and no man can see- the next minute you are saying it's God’s face we see. This shows how confused you are. Does your god now have a face? You said previously God has no appearance and is invisible.My little Pharisee. How is it that you do not understand what a metaphor is. A.Paul says "The things of God, knows no man" (1 Cor 2:11), but he can be perceived in his works and activities amongst man (Rom 1:19-20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that [you] are without excuse."

Answer, Is Heaven his throne or is he on a seat in heaven? make up your mindAs we discussed previously it is said "figuratively" that heaven is God's throne and the earth is his footstool. If you are referring to John's vision in Revelation then again we have a "figurative" description. If Rev isn't figurative and is to be taken literally then the Lamb is going to marry a city."figuratively" If so, then how can you claim the Lamb is not called God.Well firstly, nowhere is the Lamb called God in Revelation and next because Rev 5:9-10 says of the Lamb that he "has redeemed us to God" by his blood and "has made us unto our God a kingdom of priests" and Rev 21:1-2 says the new Jerusalem who is to be wed to the Lamb came "down from God out of heaven".You say revelation figurative, so how can you say it does not mean the lamb is not God. Make up your mind, is it figurative or not? Are your pick nicking to have things look the way you want them.Your question is confused. I presume it is meant to reads: "how can you say that Revelation does not contain the idea that the lamb is God"
Firstly, no where in Revelation is the Lamb called God. God in Revelation is defined as the one whom the Lamb is with (Rev 7:10-11). Also note Rev 14:1 "A Lamb stood on mount Zion and with him an hundred and forty four thousand, having his Father's name written in their forehead etc etc. In Rev, God is defined as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (eg: Rev 1:6). The opening verse of Revelation is even more specific "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him. (Rev 1:1)
"figuratively" If so, then how can you claim the Lamb is not called God- by pick nicking what you like?I don't nick pick, I just relate correlated scriptures which clearly explain the isolated scriptures you present. It is good thing that you are getting frustrated by the scriptural evidence. It might tempt you to read the bible.Make you your mind, figurative of not? Can we see God or not?My confused friend, as I've related before Revelation is about future events "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which will shortly come to pass." (Rev 1:1) The promise is that after the resurrection we will be in a direct relationship with God. As a Hebrew, you should be well aware that the "face" thing is eastern idiom.
Are you just making it the way you like?Far from such. The matter is too important! I accept what the scriptures have to say, without inserting my own opinion.
Is revelation figurative of not?I've maintained in every post that Revelation uses figurative/symbolic language. It uses metaphors to designate future events. For instance: The OT sacrificial Lamb for atonement in In Revelation becomes a metaphor for (the designation of) Jesus Christ who sacrificed himself for our sins.
"Do when see him on the Throne or Not?" The throne is a metaphor for God's majesty and authority over all things.Matthew 5:8' "for they shall see God." Do when see him When the kingdom is established we are promised that we will be in a direct relationship with God like Adam once had. So I presume once we a purified of heart we will see God. Jesus doesn't say we'll see physical body parts. The scriptural indication is that our eyes are opened and we come to perceive God as absolute in our lives (Rom 1:20). Compare Matt 5:8 with Ps 24.

[John from Ebla]

My confused friend. A.Paul says "The things of God, knows no man" (1 Cor 2:11). So, when we say God is Spirit or God is Love or we felt his hand, these are just words to describe man's perception of his existence in our lives. Does God have a face, in John's vision he is said to, but remember John was having an inspired vision. As a Hebrew you of all people should know of the idiom, in which to see the Kings face is used.

Don't feel threatened by the scriptures, they are there to teach us and guide us to truth.

Most definitely. Through Jesus we hear the teaching God gave him, we find the love of God, we find the single mindness of God, and we experience the patience, longsuffering etc of God. As A.Paul says Jesus is an exact copy of God's nature. (Heb 1:3 NJB)
My little Pharisee. How is it that you do not understand what a metaphor is. A.Paul says "The things of God, knows no man" (1 Cor 2:11), but he can be perceived in his works and activities amongst man (Rom 1:19-20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that [you] are without excuse."

Your question is confused. I presume it is meant to reads: "how can you say that Revelation does not contain the idea that the lamb is God"
Firstly, no where in Revelation is the Lamb called God. God in Revelation is defined as the one whom the Lamb is with (Rev 7:10-11). Also note Rev 14:1 "A Lamb stood on mount Zion and with him an hundred and forty four thousand, having his Father's name written in their forehead etc etc. In Rev, God is defined as the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (eg: Rev 1:6). The opening verse of Revelation is even more specific "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him. (Rev 1:1)
My confused friend, as I've related before Revelation is about future events "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which will shortly come to pass." (Rev 1:1) The promise is that after the resurrection we will be in a direct relationship with God. As a Hebrew, you should be well aware that the "face" thing is eastern idiom.
Far from such. The matter is too important! I accept what the scriptures have to say, without inserting my own opinion.
I've maintained in every post that Revelation uses figurative/symbolic language. It uses metaphors to designate future events. For instance: The OT sacrificial Lamb for atonement in In Revelation becomes a metaphor for (the designation of) Jesus Christ who sacrificed himself for our sins.
The throne is a metaphor for God's majesty and authority over all things. When the kingdom is established we are promised that we will be in a direct relationship with God like Adam once had. So I presume once we a purified of heart we will see God. Jesus doesn't say we'll see physical body parts. The scriptural indication is that our eyes are opened and we come to perceive God as absolute in our lives (Rom 1:20). Compare Matt 5:8 with Ps 24.

If only l deny John 1:1-3,10,14 and follow your false teaching about another god- Then l would inquire more about your theology.

Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts" (Isaiah 6:1,5)

"These things said Isaiah, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (John 12:41), about God the Son, Lord Jesus Christ.

Genesis 16:7-13--"The Memra of the Lord- He is called God

Exodus 3:1-4, 6 The memra of the Lord- "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses his his face; for he was afraid to look upon God". John 1:1-3,10,14

Judges 6:11-13 The memra of the Lord- And Gideon said unto him, O my Lord."

Judges 13:21-22--"The memra of the Lord- "And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."

Genesis 22:11 the Memra of the LORD- He out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. Do you think the eternal father had a day of and could not call Abraham from Heaven?

Do you really execpt me to throw away the scriptures and believe your theology?

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

If only l deny John 1:1-3,10,14 and follow your false teaching about another god- Then l would inquire more about your theology.I only have one God the Father. And I believe that the Logos was made flesh, which A.Paul refers to as the Son of God (cp: Jn 1:3 with Col 1:13-19; Heb 1:3). My teaching is fully supported by the scriptures.
Do you really execpt me to throw away the scriptures and believe your theology?Definitely not! However, it would be helpful for you to read them, to see if what I say is supported by them and not contradicted by them. The same goes for your theology.

[John from Ebla]

I only have one God the Father. And I believe that the Logos was made flesh, which A.Paul refers to as the Son of God (cp: Jn 1:3 with Col 1:13-19; Heb 1:3). My teaching is fully supported by the scriptures.
Definitely not! However, it would be helpful for you to read them, to see if what I say is supported by them and not contradicted by them. The same goes for your theology.

What about Exodus 3:1-4, 6 The memra of the Lord- "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses his his face; for he was afraid to look upon God". John 1:1-3,10,14 Why is he not God- but god to you.

Genesis 22:11 the Memra of the LORD- He out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. Do you think the eternal father had a day of and could not call Abraham from Heaven? Why is he not God- but god to you.

Your theology about another god does not stand. It is not sciptures.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

What about Exodus 3:1-4, 6 The memra of the Lord- "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses his his face; for he was afraid to look upon God".Notice Ex 3:2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." It was God's messenger relaying God's words.
John 1:1-3,10,14 Why is he not God- but god to you.The scriptures call the Logos made flesh, the Son of God. The Greek of John 1:1 says that the Logos was "face to face with God" and that the Logos had the same devine nature as God. True the English translation has it that "the Word was God" but this isn't what the Greek says, nor does the Greek say that "the Word was god" nor does it say "the word was divine".

Genesis 22:11 the Memra of the LORD- He out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. Do you think the eternal father had a day off and could not call Abraham from Heaven? Why is he not God- but god to you.No. But since Adam's sin God only deals with man through a mediator. Notice Ex 3:2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." It was God's messenger relaying God's words.

Your theology about another god does not stand. It is not sciptures.My theology is about the God of the OT, which the NT identifies as the Father of the Logos made flesh. It is 100% irrefutable scripture.

[John from Ebla]

Notice Ex 3:2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." It was God's messenger relaying God's words..

But you are denying he is God- they (in the O/T) said he is God and he said he was God, but you are making your own theology about another god.


The scriptures call the Logos made flesh, the Son of God. The Greek of John 1:1 says that the Logos was "face to face with God" and that the Logos had the same devine nature as God. True the English translation has it that "the Word was God" but this isn't what the Greek says, nor does the Greek say that "the Word was god" nor does it say "the word was divine"...

Yes, but he said he was God, and John 1:1 say he is God. You are telling us about anothed god of yours

No. But since Adam's sin God only deals with man through a mediator. Notice Ex 3:2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." It was God's messenger relaying God's words.


My theology is about the God of the OT, which the NT identifies as the Father of the Logos made flesh. It is 100% irrefutable scripture.

Indeed you have a JW Theology. He said he was God and John 1:1 says God

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

What about Exodus 3:1-4, 6 The memra of the Lord- "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses his his face; for he was afraid to look upon God".
Notice Ex 3:2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." It was God's messenger relaying God's words.But you are denying he is God- they (in the O/T) said he is God and he said he was God, but you are making your own theology about another god.Yes, I deny that God's messenger (the angel of the Lord) is God himself. As a Hebrew, you know the idiom, that to the receiver, the deliverer of the King's word, is the same as if spoken by the King, for he speaks with the same authority as if with the voice of his master. The angel of the Lord was as if God to Moses, because the angel of the Lord commited to Moses the words of God.
John 1:1-3,10,14 Why is he not God- but god to you.
The scriptures call the Logos made flesh, the Son of God. The Greek of John 1:1 says that the Logos was "face to face with God" and that the Logos had the same devine nature as God. True the English translation has it that "the Word was God" but this isn't what the Greek says, nor does the Greek say that "the Word was god" nor does it say "the word was divine".
Yes, but he said he was God, and John 1:1 say he is God. You are telling us about anothed god of yoursTo Moses the angel of the Lord was as if God to Moses, because the angel of the Lord commited to Moses the words of God. Similarly, in John 1:1 the Greek phraseology demands that the Logos who was with God, is not God himself.
Genesis 22:11 the Memra of the LORD- He out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. Do you think the eternal father had a day off and could not call Abraham from Heaven? Why is he not God- but god to you.No. But since Adam's sin God only deals with man through a mediator. Notice Ex 3:2 "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto [Moses] in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." It was God's messenger relaying God's words.

My theology is about the God of the OT, which the NT identifies as the Father of the Logos made flesh. It is 100% irrefutable scripture.
Indeed you have a JW Theology. He said he was God and John 1:1 says GodJWs think the Son of God is a creation of God and they believe him to be the archangel Michael. The bulk of Christianity believes that the Son of God is truely of the Father, not created but begotten before all ages and God sent him in times past as his messenger and in later times caused him to become flesh for our salvation. Oneness believers think the Father and Son are the same person (the Father/Spirit tabernacled in the flesh of a man), in which case there is no need for a mediator (except as disposable mass). The three ideas might be construed as having subtle differences but only one of them is taught in scripture. The majority of NT texts differentiate between the persons of the Father and the Son, and call the Son the Son of God. JWs view that the Logos is Son by adoption, Orthodoxy believe him truely Son.

[John from Ebla]

Yes, I deny that God's messenger (the angel of the Lord) is God himself. As a Hebrew, you know the idiom, that to the receiver, the deliverer of the King's word, is the same as if spoken by the King, for he speaks with the same authority as if with the voice of his master. The angel of the Lord was as if God to Moses, because the angel of the Lord commited to Moses the words of God.
To Moses the angel of the Lord was as if God to Moses, because the angel of the Lord commited to Moses the words of God. Similarly, in John 1:1 the Greek phraseology demands that the Logos who was with God, is not God himself.

So it is another god as you have been teaching- that is not scriptural. He said he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:2-14) he is also the covenant maker- the eternal Father is not a husband to his creation. “For your Maker is you Husband, the Lord of hosts” (ISA 54.5) The eternal father is not the husband, the covenant maker is- and in the O/T he is called God by all those that saw Him.

Kind regards
John From ebla

[apostoli]

So it is another god as you have been teaching- that is not scriptural. [The angel of the Lord] said he was the God of Abraham...I don't make the one who delivers the words of God, God himself. And as you will see below my teaching is 100% uncontrovertable scriptural.

He said he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:2-14) he is also the covenant maker.Ex 3:2 says "the angel of the Lord" appeared to Moses. Gen 22:11 says "the angel of the Lord" called unto Abraham. If you are want to make angels God, it is none of my business. The apostle Paul reproved the early Hebrew Christians for that mistake (Heb 1:13-14 to 2:1-18).

We both know that in ancient (and in modern) custom the words of the messenger (ambassador) are treated as spoken by the King himself.

According to the scriptures since the time of Adam's fall, man has not been able to have a direct personal relationship with God. But God has not forgotten us, and so he speaks to man through a mediator, in these times through his Son Jesus Christ.

the eternal Father is not a husband to his creation. “For your Maker is your Husband, the Lord of hosts” (ISA 54.5)Maybe not to all of his creation but concerning his chosen people Jeremiah 31:31-32 says differently: "Behold the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with [Israel and Judah], not according to the covenant I made with their fathers...I was a husband to them"

Isaiah and Jeremiah are using a metaphor to describe the relationship the children of Abraham through Isaac were meant to have with God. As an example: Up until a few years ago, part of the western wedding ceremony kept the ancient practice of the wife promising that she would be obedient to her husband. Israel & Judah were unfaithful to God, and so Hosea refers to them as harlots and adulterers (Hos 2:2).

The eternal father is not the husband, the covenant maker is- and in the O/T he is called God by all those that saw Him. Isa 54:4 calls "the husband" our Maker, Lord of Hosts, our Redeemer, the Holy one of Israel, and the God of the whole earth - all these titles apply to the covenant maker. Jeremiah 31:31-32 shows the covenant maker "was an husband unto [Israel & Judah]".

A.Paul says there is one God and Father of all, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Jesus Christ, "[who] created all things by Jesus Christ" (eg: Eph 1:17; 3:14-15; 3:9; 4:6). To the early Christian Hebrews A.Paul said "God, who in sundry times and diverse manners spoke unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." A.Paul's message is clear, why do you need to ignore it?

[John from Ebla]

I don't make the one who delivers the words of God, God himself. And as you will see below my teaching is 100% uncontrovertable scriptural.

Ex 3:2 says "the angel of the Lord" appeared to Moses. Gen 22:11 says "the angel of the Lord" called unto Abraham. If you are want to make angels God, it is none of my business. The apostle Paul reproved the early Hebrew Christians for that mistake (Heb 1:13-14 to 2:1-18).

We both know that in ancient (and in modern) custom the words of the messenger (ambassador) are treated as spoken by the King himself.

According to the scriptures since the time of Adam's fall, man has not been able to have a direct personal relationship with God. But God has not forgotten us, and so he speaks to man through a mediator, in these times through his Son Jesus Christ.

Maybe not to all of his creation but concerning his chosen people Jeremiah 31:31-32 says differently: "Behold the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with [Israel and Judah], not according to the covenant I made with their fathers...I was a husband to them"

Isaiah and Jeremiah are using a metaphor to describe the relationship the children of Abraham through Isaac were meant to have with God. As an example: Up until a few years ago, part of the western wedding ceremony kept the ancient practice of the wife promising that she would be obedient to her husband. Israel & Judah were unfaithful to God, and so Hosea refers to them as harlots and adulterers (Hos 2:2).

Isa 54:4 calls "the husband" our Maker, Lord of Hosts, our Redeemer, the Holy one of Israel, and the God of the whole earth - all these titles apply to the covenant maker. Jeremiah 31:31-32 shows the covenant maker "was an husband unto [Israel & Judah]".

A.Paul says there is one God and Father of all, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Jesus Christ, "[who] created all things by Jesus Christ" (eg: Eph 1:17; 3:14-15; 3:9; 4:6). To the early Christian Hebrews A.Paul said "God, who in sundry times and diverse manners spoke unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." A.Paul's message is clear, why do you need to ignore it?

But, to defend you theology, you have to deny the fact that the visable form of the one the spoke was called "God" by all that came across him.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[John from Ebla]

Lord of Lords and King of Kings

God the Father said about the Son: "Yet have I set my King upon My holy hill of Zion" (Psalm 2:6)

The Father calls the Son his King [/B], Jesus is King of Kings, the father is not a king. That’s why everywhere in the Holy Scripture in the OldTestament God the Son is speaking: "I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King" (Isaiah 43:15); "Lord or Lords" and "king of Kings"

Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts" (Isaiah 6:1,5);

"These things said Isaiah, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (John 12:41), about God the Son, Lord Jesus Christ.

Arguments against seletive texts to prove Jesus is God is invaild and Hypocritical- how do you prove your god is what you claim he is?

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

But, to defend your theology, you have to deny the fact that the visible form of the one that spoke was called "God" by all that came across him.God is not a burning bush! Moses says "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him" in the burning bush (Ex 3:2) We both know that in ancient (and in modern) custom the words of the messenger (ambassador) are treated as spoken by the King himself and the ambassador speaks with the authority of the King. Therefore there is nothing unusual in Moses relating what occurred in the first person. Moses did not speak with God himself, but through the mediation of "the angel of the Lord".
In this regard Zechariah 12:8 is worth a read: "the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them." (cp Ex 14:19).
Lord of Lords and King of Kings.Rev 17:14 says "the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those that are with him are called, and chosen and faithful."
Now read Rev 15:3 which says the "King of the righteous ones" is the Lord God almighty not the Lamb. "And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb saying: Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty, just and true are your ways, you King of righteous ones." Notice the Lamb is not the one called Lord God Almighty. Also see Rev 19:15-16 where the phrase is repeated.
God the Father said about the Son: "Yet have I set my King upon My holy hill of Zion" (Psalm 2:6)Yep, God the Father, sets his Son, Jesus Christ, upon the throne of David for a time and in the end times the Son delivers the kingdom to his Father and subjects himself to his Father. (1 Cor 15:24-28 cp: Zechariah 14:9)
The Father calls the Son his King [/B], Jesus is King of Kings,the father is not a king. That’s why everywhere in the Holy Scripture in the Old Testament God the Son is speaking: "I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King" (Isaiah 43:15); Jesus taught us to pray that his Father's kingdom come "Our Father, who is in heaven, let your name be put above every other name, let your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven". A.Paul says that God the Father has subjected all things unto his Son until the end comes "cometh the end, when [the Son] have delivered up the kingdom to God, the Father" (1 Cor 15:24). Kingdoms always have a King!
Regarding Isaiah 43:15 see Isaiah 9:6-7. It is the zeal of the Lord of hosts that establishes "the child [who] is born" whom Christian believe is Jesus Christ, whom the "Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King" (Is 43:15) installs on the throne of David (Is 9:6-7). Whom Isaiah calls the "servant" of God (Is 42:1; Isa 49:1-7; 52:13-15 etc).
Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts" (Isaiah 6:1,5); "These things said Isaiah, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him" (John 12:41), about God the Son, Lord Jesus Christ.Yep! Isaiah had a vision of the King who appoints our King.
Interesting that you refer to John 12:41 directly after referring to Isaiah 6 and a pity you didn't read the context (John 12:39-40) which says "[the Hebrew] could not believe, because as Isaiah said: [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, and be converted." which fulfills Isaiah 6:10 which reads "Make the heart of [the Hebrew] fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted and be healed."
"Lord or Lords" and "king of Kings"Elsewhere you have said "One Lord God. Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings- there is no Lord or King above him" and I responded "1 Cor 15:24-28 creates a major problem for your theory: 'Then cometh the end, when [Christ] shall deliver up the kingdom to God, [his] Father' and 'the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him'. Also note vs 27 where it says God put all things under Jesus, except himself". Scripture inspired by God does not contradict itself, nor confound, nor confuse. The scripture is clear!

Arguments against selective texts to prove Jesus is God is invalid and HypocriticalI presume you have taken offense because the isolated bits of text you quote out of context are readily proved false. Attack, detract, avoid the scriptures all you like. It still remains...
In A.Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he has one consistent, unambiguous, explicit message. In fact all of A.Paul's letters have the same message. A.Paul says he bows his "knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named" (Eph 3:14-15). A.Paul says there is one God and Father of all, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Jesus Christ, "[who] created all things by Jesus Christ" (eg: Eph 1:17; 3:14-15; 3:9; 4:6). To the early Christian Hebrews A.Paul said "God, who in sundry times and diverse manners spoke unto the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." A.Paul's message is clear, if your doctrine is true why do you see A.Paul as contradicting you and why do you need to ignore it?
how do you prove your god is what you claim he is?By reading the inspired scriptures with an "open heart" and "with my eyes open" (cp: Is 6:10; Jn 12:40) and by testing all I learn to see if it is true (Acts 17:11; 1 Jn 4:1).
I find examining opposing views a useful device as well. I spend considerable time examining peoples posts trying to understand why they believe as they do and testing those opinions in the crucible of the scriptures.

[John from Ebla]

God is not a burning bush! Moses says "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him" in the burning bush (Ex 3:2).

Correct, God is not a burning Bush- l never said he was and the scriptures don't say it. It say's, "God was in the burning bush" so stop fabricating the scripture.

You are denying that all that saw him said "l saw God'

As for the rest fo your post it is just fabricated bla bla as you did above- twisting what is written.

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[apostoli]

But, to defend you theology, you have to deny the fact that the visable form of the one the spoke was called "God" by all that came across him.God is not a burning bush! Moses says "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him" in the burning bush (Ex 3:2) Correct, God is not a burning Bush- l never said he was and the scriptures don't say it. It say's, "God was in the burning bush" so stop fabricating the scripture.Go read your bible: Ex 3:2 says ""the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold the bush burned with fire and the bush was not consumed."
You are denying that all that saw him said "l saw God'Go read your bible.

As for the rest fo your post it is just fabricated bla bla as you did above- twisting what is written.Not a single twist or bend to be found. I quoted the bible in context and accurately. If you need to deny the scriptures to feel secure in your beliefs so be it.

John 12:39-40: "they could not believe, because as Isaiah said: [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, and be converted." cp. Isaiah 6:10

[John from Ebla]

Go read your bible: Ex 3:2 says ""the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold the bush burned with fire and the bush was not consumed."
Go read your bible.

l did. It does not say God is a burring bush. The word of God was in the burning Bush and was not consumed - He said in verse, “l am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” Exodus 3:6

You are denying he said he was God- will not respond to the rest of your post because you are fabricating what is written in Exodus 3:6

Kind regards
John From Ebla

Not a single twist or bend to be found. I quoted the bible in context and accurately. If you need to deny the scriptures to feel secure in your beliefs so be it.

John 12:39-40: "they could not believe, because as Isaiah said: [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, and be converted." cp. Isaiah 6:10[/QUOTE]