The Chronicles Of Narnia

[PRAISE]

Ok-since so many people are getting so bent out of shape about "HARRY POTTER", lets talk about "THE CHRONICLES OF NARNIA"! :rant: There was all sorts of magic, witchcraft, & all kinds of "evil" things in that series!:shrug: It appears to me like the ONLY REASON that the "CHRONICLES OF NARNIA isn't getting "ragged" on, is because C.O.N. was written by a Christian author and/or because C.O.N. has Christian themes behind them! Don't get me wrong, because I absolutly LOVED C.O.N, but aren't we over looking the biggest issue here?-that if it get's kids to read, is it really so bad?:huh:

Thoughts?

PRAISE:thumb:

PS-C.O.N.=CHRONICLES OF NARNIA

[Solly]

Is Christopher Pike a known author in the States? He writes horror fiction for young teens. No way my son will be reading them, and I'd rather he was illiterate.

For those who have read HP and CoN, and are Christians, can you tell me if you got the same "buzz" from them both? When I read CoN - for the first time, and after becoming a Christian - I shed tears in places, at moments of recognition, esp the death of Aslan, the incident by the stream, and events in the Last Battle. They added to my faith, they were edifying, and helped my at a time when I was struggling to connect being a Christian with being in the "real world". Is this so with HP, or is it just a "good/bad read"? Or worse? If HP is what has to be written so that children will read, what a poor world we live in.

[Piebald]

For those who have read HP and CoN, and are Christians, can you tell me if you got the same "buzz" from them both?

The Chronicles of Narnia are much more airy, and elegant, kind of like a classical fairy tale. The Harry Potter books are more "Down to earth"... sort of like how the Wizard of Oz was when it first came out (Dorothy using slang and all).

When I read CoN - for the first time, and after becoming a Christian - I shed tears in places, at moments of recognition, esp the death of Aslan, the incident by the stream, and events in the Last Battle.

I don't think there's any paralel with the death of Aslan. That has got to be the most emotional scene in any "fairy tale" I've ever read. Harry Potter does have very emotional scenes, and can be very edifying, but not on the level of the Chronicles.

I suggest picking up the first Harry Potter book (Philosopher's Stone). It's a quick read and it will basically tell you about the Potter "Universe"

I started reading it about a year and a half ago because I was going to see what all the fuss was about. After hearing Hank Hanegraaf's show on Harry Potter I was outraged by the books contents... then I read them, and fell in love with them. They are not perfect books but they are nowhere half as bad as the kind of propaganda I had been hearing about them.

[Piebald]

the ONLY REASON that the "CHRONICLES OF NARNIA isn't getting "ragged" on, is because C.O.N. was written by a Christian author and/or because C.O.N. has Christian themes behind them!

This is a good point. The Chronicles of Narnia even have the children partying and fellowshipping with pagan gods. We don't even flinch at this because we know Lewis certainly wasn't trying to encourage belief in Bacchus, Silenus, or River-gods.

[Solly]

In fact, you might say that Lewis was downplaying those critters by saying that what were only flights of imagination in this world, were reality there, but in a different way, because Aslan created them.

[Piebald]

That's true, and they all bowed to Aslan. I think the "gods" of Narnia are benign spirits which are personifications of nature, and in Bacchus and Silenus' case, joy. One of my favorite scenes in the chronicles is when Bacchus, the Maenads, and Silenus are celebrating as vines full of ripe grapes magically spread 'round.



"Refreshments! Refreshments," roared {Silenus}

Everyone began eating, and whatever hothouses your people may have, you have never tasted such grapes. Really good grapes, firm and tight on the outside, but bursting into cool sweetness when you put them into your mouth, were one of the things the girls had never had quite enough of before. Here, there were more than anyone could possibly want, and rib table-manners at all. One saw sticky and stained fingers everywhere, and, though mouths were full, the laughter never ceased nor the yodelling cries of Euan, euan, eu-oi-oi-oi-oi, till all of a sudden everyone felt at the same moment that the game (whatever it was), and the feast, ought to be over, and everyone flopped down breathless on the ground and turned their faces to Aslan to hear what he would say next.


And then you have the "liberation" scenes which are a beautiful expression of the freedom and joy in Christ:



At a well in a yard they met a man who was beating a boy. The stick burst into flower in the man's hand. He tried to drop it, but it stuck to his hand. His arm became a branch, his body the trunk of a tree, his feet took root. The boy, who had been crying a moment before, burst out laughing and joined them.

At a little town half-way to Beaversdam, where two rivers met, they came to another school, where a tiredlooking girl was teaching arithmetic to a number of boys who looked very like pigs. She looked out of the window and saw the divine revellers singing up the street and a stab of joy went through her heart. Aslan stopped right under the window and looked up at her.

"Oh, don't, don't," she said. "I'd love to. But I mustn't. I must stick to my work. And the children would be frightened if they saw you."

"Frightened?" said the most pig-like of the boys. "Who's she talking to out of the window? Let's tell the inspector she talks to people out of the window when she ought to be teaching us."

"Let's go and see who it is," said another boy, and they all came crowding to the window. But as soon as their mean little faces looked out, Bacchus gave a great cry of Euan, euoi-oi-oi-of and the boys all began howling with fright and trampling one another down to get out of the door and jumping out of the windows. And it was said afterwards (whether truly or not) that those particular little boys were never seen again, but that there were a lot of very fine little pigs in that part of the country which had never been there before.

"Now, Dear Heart," said Aslan to the Mistress, and she jumped down and joined them.


Romans 8
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

[Solly]

oo I've got goosebumps just re-reading it again. Thanks Hammy.

On a similar vein, I read David Lyndsay's A Voyage to Arcturus. Good book, but not a patch on the Cosmic Trilogy. the savour of Christ makes all the difference. I re-read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged a while back - or started to. yecch. Cordwainer Smith is good when you are a Christian. But I certainly find that I have trouble with things I used to like a lot. Even the Dune Trilogy wasn't as good as I had hoped. that's why I just can't be boethered to read HP, anymore that a lot of other stuff these days. One needs a shot of Tolkein or Lewis afterwards.

[Solly]

Did anybody know a movie was in the planning/making?

http://www.narnia.com/index.htm

[trueseeker]

Is it alright to appriecate art made by worldly people, or can we only appriecate it if Christians produce it?

Why shouldn't we give credit where credit is due, no matter who produced the art?

It wasn't that many years ago that this same controversy was going on about Star Wars. Lucas wasn't a Christian, 'the force' is a terrible concept that may mislead our youth. That debate seems kind of silly now, as will the H.P debate in a few years.

If H.P. is bad then we had better stop our kids from seeing 90% of Disney's stuff. Most of it has magic in it. What about the Wizard of Oz? Almost all Sci-fi is based on evolution, should we band it? Most of the Marvel comic book characters are also based of evolution and mutations, lets throw them out. Many of the DC comics are based on aliens, lets get rid of them. Westerns are awful violent--they're gone. Where would it stop?

I try to encourage my kid's imaginations, I think it is good and healthy, as long as they can continue to distinguish between reality and fantasy. It's not fantasy materials that I am worried about and band for them, it is reality--horror, deviant or promiscuous sex, brutal realistic violence, racist propaganda, evil heroes, etc.. That is the kind of materials I want to protect them from.

[Solly]

Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

[NeilUnreal]

I picked "C.O.N. is as evil as HARRY POTTER!" because I don't think either one is particularly evil. They are, however, different series of books, by different authors, and are only indirectly comparable.

-Neil

[PRAISE]

Today @ 09:17 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=139204#post139204)
Hamster:

the ONLY REASON that the "CHRONICLES OF NARNIA isn't getting "ragged" on, is because C.O.N. was written by a Christian author and/or because C.O.N. has Christian themes behind them!

This is a good point. The Chronicles of Narnia even have the children partying and fellowshipping with pagan gods. We don't even flinch at this because we know Lewis certainly wasn't trying to encourage belief in Bacchus, Silenus, or River-gods.

Hamster-Please don't think that I'm getting on your case, (especially after those pearls:smile:), but-do we really think that J.K.ROWLING IS trying to influence us into believing in charaters like house elves, Lord Voldemort, & witchcraft? I love you, man!:love: God Bless!

PRAISE:thumb:

[PRAISE]

Yesterday @ 02:48 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=139316#post139316)
trueseeker:

Is it alright to appriecate art made by worldly people, or can we only appriecate it if Christians produce it?

Why shouldn't we give credit where credit is due, no matter who produced the art?

It wasn't that many years ago that this same controversy was going on about Star Wars. Lucas wasn't a Christian, 'the force' is a terrible concept that may mislead our youth. That debate seems kind of silly now, as will the H.P debate in a few years.

If H.P. is bad then we had better stop our kids from seeing 90% of Disney's stuff. Most of it has magic in it. What about the Wizard of Oz? Almost all Sci-fi is based on evolution, should we band it? Most of the Marvel comic book characters are also based of evolution and mutations, lets throw them out. Many of the DC comics are based on aliens, lets get rid of them. Westerns are awful violent--they're gone. Where would it stop?

I try to encourage my kid's imaginations, I think it is good and healthy, as long as they can continue to distinguish between reality and fantasy. It's not fantasy materials that I am worried about and band for them, it is reality--horror, deviant or promiscuous sex, brutal realistic violence, racist propaganda, evil heroes, etc.. That is the kind of materials I want to protect them from.

thruthseeker-you are awesome!:cheers: What I have been trying to make clear to everyone is exactly what you said, when you said about helping your kids to distinguish between fantasy & reality! That is the real key here-that much of entertainment in the media today, (& I'm not just talking strict fantasy, but virtually ALL entertainment), is fantasy-not real! And whose responsibility is it to teach kids the difference between fantasy & reality-THE PARENTS! Two thumbs up for you, bro'!:thumb: :thumb:

PRAISE:thumb:

[Beautiful-Scars]

hmm
one very important point your all missing.

C.o.N. is written in another world. Everything is different, God, as we know him, is not there, Aslan is. Think about it, in our world, sin is sin because God has deemed it so, and therefore we shouldn't do whatever it is that he's called sin (is eating fruit wrong in itself? no we do it, adam and eve couldn't eat from the one tree becasue God told them not to, thus making it sin.)

in H.P the world is our world. HP doesn't take place in another dimension, it's here on planet earth. so our God would still be there, his absolute truths ad morals ought to still apply. But they don't, harry still lies and get's rewarded. Not to say this doesn't happen in our world, but kids often take things they read as true. C.o. N they can see isn't true, it's not on earth. With H.P. it is here in their world.

If you've ever read Perelandra, it can help explin what I'm saying, in Perelandra, rules are different for that world, then they are for ours, not because it's all relative, but because God has something else set up for them.


As for the christian author argument...Lewis's being a christian doesn't make his writings automaticly good or better; however, it does lend toward him writing ith a christian world view, i.e, he writes knowing the truth. Rowling, (as far as I can tell) doesn't know he truth about creation, sin nature Jesus ect. so she can't write and have that influence her story. CS Lewis isn't going to start writing about evil things and make it sound intriging or good, or put the the Protagonist, who the kids lionise, doing bad things and call them good, because of his world view, he's not going to encourage or put evil into the goodlight. Ms. Rowling on the other hand, can and theres not much except whatever value system she has invented for herself to stop her. Lewis knows true boundaries, Rowling doesn't.

As for the, "who cares as long as kids read" line of discussion, honestly does that make any sense at all? I think I can't comprehend it, reading is good yes, but not reading just anything. If a book condons murdering or lying or pre-marital sex or drug use or anything like that, would you as a christian hand it to a 10 year old kid to read? Kids are so influeced by what they read and hear and see. If you let them read books where the protaginist is mostlye good, but does wrong, yet is never condemned or punished for that wrong (merely at the whims of others is he punished) then they're goign to think a.) that's the way it is or b.) that's the way it should be. With outside guiding they can come to realize that the book is wrong, but why not simply give them something worth reading? something where wrong is wrong and right is right.
H.P. lets the line between right and wrong waver, Lewis shows right and wrong as it is, in clear colors of black and white. Kids can read about bad things, as long as it's shown that it's bad, but H.P doesn't do this.


Beyond all that, C.o.N werewritten as an allegory to the christian life, yes things are different, but kids pick up on the paralles oten times faster than adults do, they don't think of witches as real witches, but mearly as evil and sin, likewise, they don't think of river gods or aslan as new Gods, but merely representations of the True God. It encourages and uplifts the faith of the readers;whereas, I see no such thing coming from H.P.

[PRAISE]

07-05-2003 @ 05:47 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140115#post140115)
Beautiful-Scars:

hmm
one very important point your all missing.

C.o.N. is written in another world. Everything is different, God, as we know him, is not there, Aslan is. Think about it, in our world, sin is sin because God has deemed it so, and therefore we shouldn't do whatever it is that he's called sin (is eating fruit wrong in itself? no we do it, adam and eve couldn't eat from the one tree becasue God told them not to, thus making it sin.)

in H.P the world is our world. HP doesn't take place in another dimension, it's here on planet earth. so our God would still be there, his absolute truths ad morals ought to still apply. But they don't, harry still lies and get's rewarded. Not to say this doesn't happen in our world, but kids often take things they read as true. C.o. N they can see isn't true, it's not on earth. With H.P. it is here in their world.

If you've ever read Perelandra, it can help explin what I'm saying, in Perelandra, rules are different for that world, then they are for ours, not because it's all relative, but because God has something else set up for them.


As for the christian author argument...Lewis's being a christian doesn't make his writings automaticly good or better; however, it does lend toward him writing ith a christian world view, i.e, he writes knowing the truth. Rowling, (as far as I can tell) doesn't know he truth about creation, sin nature Jesus ect. so she can't write and have that influence her story. CS Lewis isn't going to start writing about evil things and make it sound intriging or good, or put the the Protagonist, who the kids lionise, doing bad things and call them good, because of his world view, he's not going to encourage or put evil into the goodlight. Ms. Rowling on the other hand, can and theres not much except whatever value system she has invented for herself to stop her. Lewis knows true boundaries, Rowling doesn't.

As for the, "who cares as long as kids read" line of discussion, honestly does that make any sense at all? I think I can't comprehend it, reading is good yes, but not reading just anything. If a book condons murdering or lying or pre-marital sex or drug use or anything like that, would you as a christian hand it to a 10 year old kid to read? Kids are so influeced by what they read and hear and see. If you let them read books where the protaginist is mostlye good, but does wrong, yet is never condemned or punished for that wrong (merely at the whims of others is he punished) then they're goign to think a.) that's the way it is or b.) that's the way it should be. With outside guiding they can come to realize that the book is wrong, but why not simply give them something worth reading? something where wrong is wrong and right is right.
H.P. lets the line between right and wrong waver, Lewis shows right and wrong as it is, in clear colors of black and white. Kids can read about bad things, as long as it's shown that it's bad, but H.P doesn't do this.


Beyond all that, C.o.N werewritten as an allegory to the christian life, yes things are different, but kids pick up on the paralles oten times faster than adults do, they don't think of witches as real witches, but mearly as evil and sin, likewise, they don't think of river gods or aslan as new Gods, but merely representations of the True God. It encourages and uplifts the faith of the readers;whereas, I see no such thing coming from H.P.

B-Scars: I see where your coming from, but I can't agree with you when you say that The world of HP is the same world, or same dimension-it is anything but. There is magic in HP's world, where there is none in the real world. The magical world of HP is very much a different dimension! Just one other thing. I also can't agree with what you say about HP's world not being up lifting. We have seen trust, loyality, friendship, concern, & a host of other admirable qualities being exhibited in the world of HP. This can be every bit as uplifting as the allegorical morals of C.O.N.
Love Ya":love:

Praise:thumb:

[Piebald]

in H.P the world is our world

Sort of -- The school exists in the imaginary country of "Kent."

Diagon alley is an invisible alley that only Wizards can see.

The platform that takes students to Hogwarts does not exist.

As one Christian apologist puts it:

A wizard who inhabits an alternate world of fantasy and magic, filled with good and evil people with magical powers, flying broomsticks, dragons, talking animals, magical quills, etc. e.g. in Harry Potter books. The environment is in a type of alternate universe in which normal physical laws do not apply. Magic takes over. For example, the Hogwarts School building in the Harry Potter books does not obey the laws of physics; it is constantly being rearranged by magic. In this magical world, people can fly through the air on broomsticks. They can change their shape from human to an animal. Dementors can attack people and suck their soul out of their body, leaving them joyless. The "soul suckers" and others can be defeated by waving a wand and reciting a spell. Some conservative Christians link together Bible Witchcraft, Gothic Satanism, Wicca, and the imaginary witchcraft of the Harry Potter books as a single, forbidden entity. As described above, the witchcraft of the Bible and of Wicca are exact opposites in many ways. Gothic Satanism and imaginary witchcraft do not exit.


If you've ever read Perelandra, it can help explin what I'm saying, in Perelandra, rules are different for that world, then they are for ours, not because it's all relative, but because God has something else set up for them

Perelandra was an awesome book! It was, quite literally, another world (Venus) but it still existed in our Solar system and the Eldil which populated that world are similar to the Eldil which populate our "silent planet" -- although they aren't evil like the ones on Earth.

Rowling, (as far as I can tell) doesn't know he truth about creation, sin nature Jesus ect.

I think the evidence goes against that. Rowling is a Presbyterian "in good standing" with the Church and has stated that if anyone knew her faith well they would know where the Harry Potter books were going. Rowling is a devout Christian as far as the evidence tells us (unless she reveals that she's been secretly practicing neo-paganism).

As for the, "who cares as long as kids read" line of discussion, honestly does that make any sense at all?

I agree, that's a terrible argument. There are oceans of books out there that kids should have been reading before they picked up Harry Potter. Harry Potter simply got popular.

Beyond all that, C.o.N werewritten as an allegory to the christian life, yes things are different, but kids pick up on the paralles oten times faster than adults do, they don't think of witches as real witches, but mearly as evil and sin, likewise, they don't think of river gods or aslan as new Gods, but merely representations of the True God. It encourages and uplifts the faith of the readers;whereas, I see no such thing coming from H.P.

I agree that the Chronicles of Narnia are superior in Christian substance to the Harry Potter adventures. But are the only things which we are allowed to read (or should allow our young to read) things which are explicitly Christian?

[Piebald]

Praise

but-do we really think that J.K.ROWLING IS trying to influence us into believing in charaters like house elves, Lord Voldemort, & witchcraft?

Nah, of course not, I wasn't trying to say otherwise :smile:

[Epoetker]

CON is a better read, but Harry Potter fulfills today's needs. The reason HP is so down to earth is because school and public life has indeed become much, much, more like what C.S. Lewis was trying to warn against in Abolition of Man and many of the later chapters of God in the Dock. It is not as overtly Christian as the Narnia chronicles(though that may change with time and new releases) because the dangers it details are of universal concern. There are a large segment of kids who(in concert with their parents) master the popular politics of the school to act evilly with impunity. There are plenty of real politicians, acting from either ideology or spite rather than wisdom, who ruin education for any sort of practical use at all grade levels. There is an almost total antipathy by a large number of parents and teachers toward 'masculine' virtues, or indeed active virtues of any sort that require more than passive informational acceptance. This does create strong and fiery resentments among those intelligent enough to catch the glimmerings of the situation but largely powerless to do anything about it.

Harry Potter is wildly popular because it fills a very deeply felt need. The latest is also highly subversive, if not quite powerfully enough to evince action yet. One wonders, though...

[PRAISE]

Yesterday @ 11:16 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=142456#post142456)
Hamster:

Praise

but-do we really think that J.K.ROWLING IS trying to influence us into believing in charaters like house elves, Lord Voldemort, & witchcraft?

Nah, of course not, I wasn't trying to say otherwise :smile:

I hope you're not offended at me, Hamster! I guess that I was just trying to reach the more "anti" HP people out there!



PRAISE:thumb:

[One Bad Pig]

Solly:

On a similar vein, I read David Lyndsay's A Voyage to Arcturus. Good book, but not a patch on the Cosmic Trilogy. the savour of Christ makes all the difference. I re-read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged a while back - or started to. yecch. Cordwainer Smith is good when you are a Christian. But I certainly find that I have trouble with things I used to like a lot. Even the Dune Trilogy wasn't as good as I had hoped. that's why I just can't be boethered to read HP, anymore that a lot of other stuff these days. One needs a shot of Tolkein or Lewis afterwards.

I just couldn't get into A Voyage to Arcturus. It was just too wierd. I haven't read Atlas Shrugged, but I've seen quotes from it. They radiated sufficiend pride of man that I know better than to try. :smile: I haven't read HP yet (books 1-3 are on my to-read list though), but CoN is what got me interested in the genre to begin with. Even without having read HP, I'd far rather have kids read that than Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, which is practically soaked in anti-Christian vitriol by the end of the third book. I had to force myself to finish it. A wonderful antidote is David Gemmel, whose heros tend to start out flawed, but mature as the story progresses (unlike Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever).

[Piebald]

I hope you're not offended at me, Hamster! I guess that I was just trying to reach the more "anti" HP people out there!

I'm not offended at all :smile:

I voted that HP is just as evil as the Chronicles because I don't really think that either of them are evil :smile:

[PRAISE]

Yesterday @ 01:21 AM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=144992#post144992)
Hamster:

I hope you're not offended at me, Hamster! I guess that I was just trying to reach the more "anti" HP people out there!

I'm not offended at all :smile:

I voted that HP is just as evil as the Chronicles because I don't really think that either of them are evil :smile:

Huh? Thanx, anyway, my brother!:lol:

PRAISE:thumb: