Was Jesus a Jew that taught Juduism

[John from Ebla]

Mat 5:17. How do others understand this verse? Was Jesus a Jew that taught Judaism? Or a Nazarene (meaning branch or Seperated One) that was proclaiming the New Covenant? (Christian faith, The Good News Mark 1:1-4)

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[VFarris01]

Mat 5:17. How do others understand this verse? Was Jesus a Jew that taught Judaism? Or a Nazarene (meaning branch or Seperated One) that was proclaiming the New Covenant? (Christian faith, The Good News Mark 1:1-4)
(17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (18) I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (19) Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
This reads as though Jesus is telling his followers to obey the Law... why?... because this is exactly what he is telling them to do! Was Jesus a Nazarene? Perhaps... if you consider his geographic origin. Most likely he followed (and taught) the "doctrines" of the Pharisee, Essene, or perhaps even the Ebionite sects of Judaism.

from here (http://us.geocities.com/aleph135/paul21.html). Both James and Peter who founded the church after Jesus died were Nazarenes definately a Jewish sect. It was Paul who founded the new religion called Christianity.The highest "probability" of Jesus theological training was with the Pharisees.

from here (http://us.geocities.com/aleph135/paul21.html). See (Mark12. 28-34) Jesus is speaking to a lawyer (meaning a Pharisee) in a (friendly discussion) in Mathew the story is edited to make a Pharisee look very critical of Jesus. Pharisee teaching:

The 2 statements Jesus makes are an exact reference to Deuteronomy and to Leviticus and are Pharisee teachings; as follows:

A) Shema Hear O Israel the Lord our God is the only Lord, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

B) Love your neighbour as yourself. Rabbi Hillel and Rabbi Akiba both taught that this was the principal of Judaism upon which everything else depended. These two men were the greatest sages of Pharisee thought. In the Gospels an attempt is made to state the Pharisees accused Jesus of healing on the Sabbath against the Jewish laws when in fact there are laws which support these very acts of Jesus. see. Mark3:6 and Matt.12:14 In Mark 3:6 the reference is to partisans of Herod Antipas they must be Sadduccees! Mark 12:18-27 Ressurection from the dead is a Pharisee belief. Luke 13:31 At that time a number of Pharisees came to him and said, "You should leave this place and go on your way, Herod is planning to kill you. "Jesus is shown in this reference to be a friend of the Pharisees and therefore it cannot be an interpolation or a late insertion it must be true. Messiah= anointed ie. King of Davidic line this is not a blasphemy. Exodus 21:19 Doctors bills and loss of employment must be paid for by the guilty party to an injury. An eye for an eye refers to monetary compensation. Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods to be clean. ( is this an interpolation or mistranslation?) see the word Brwmata = foods? Mark 1:43 Jesus expressly commands a leper to follow the laws of purity. Mark 2 the corn plucking incident. Jesus did not break the law as the men were very hungry ie. a sense of emergency has been removed.

<Snip>

In Acts.2:46 Jesus followers still attend the Temple on a daily basis; this indicates there was no rival priesthood which could lay claim to authority.If Jesus chose Peter to found his church why was James his brother leader of the Jerusalem Church instead? and further, why did Simon follow him? see Eusebius's list of bishops (http://us.geocities.com/aleph135/bishop1.html) The ref to the keys of my kingdom is from Isiah where Eliakim is made head of the Sanhedrin with powers to bind and to loose. see Isaiah:19:23 Jesus therefore, is only giving powers to Peter to act as his legal representative not as the founder of a new sect. The priesthood is still monarchial and flows through the blood line. Gibbon states that the first ten leaders of the Christian church were all circumcized Jews while Eusebius states that the first fifteen bishops were circumcised Jews. In Acts.22:12 Ananias of Damascus is no Christian he is described there as a "devout observer of the law and well spoken of by all the Jews of that place. "This hardly sounds like a converted Jew! In Acts.21:18-21 James questions Paul re: his efforts to change circumcision and to turn your back upon the Law Johannes Munck Editor of the 20Cent Anchor Bible book of Acts of the Apostles denies the Jewish element of the Jerusalem Jews. See his comments in the Anchor Bible.
(1) The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. (2) It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way" (3) "a voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.' " (4)And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (5) The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Jesus is the anointed one of God and therefore, by the standard applied to David, he is the son of God as well (David is called the son of God in the OT), being the heir to David's throne.

Is John the messenger of v2? Nope, Jesus is the messenger who will "prepare the way" for the "Kingdom of God," not John.

[John from Ebla]

Did Jesus really teach the torah or did Paul and Jesus teach the same thing.

1)Paul did not teach people to offer animal sacrifices in their backyards. The Torah actually forbids that. The commands concerning animal sacrifices could be legally carried out only at the temple in Jerusalem, and then only by the descendants of Aaron..



2)Paul did not teach people to punish rebellious teenagers and Sabbath-breakers by stoning them to death. Penalties like that could be imposed only by properly appointed judges within the theocracy of Israel, whose constitution was the Torah

So how much of the torah is applicable/ who say's what is and what is not?

Could fullfil in Matt 5:17 mean as the writter implies throughout his gospel. See Fullfiiled Matt 1:23 written in Isa 11:1, Matt 1:15 written in Hos 11:1, Matt 2:6 written in Micah 5:2, God said he would send the Jews a prophet like unto Moses Matt 4:2 written in Exod 34:28, The new covenant Matt 26:28 written in Exod 24:6-8

These are just a few used to explain my position, but there are many more.

VFrrrisoI, you have made your point, l would like to hear from others

Kind Regards
John From Ebla

[John from Ebla]

Did Jesus really teach the torah or did Paul and Jesus teach the same thing.

1)Paul did not teach people to offer animal sacrifices in their backyards. The Torah actually forbids that. The commands concerning animal sacrifices could be legally carried out only at the temple in Jerusalem, and then only by the descendants of Aaron..



2)Paul did not teach people to punish rebellious teenagers and Sabbath-breakers by stoning them to death. Penalties like that could be imposed only by properly appointed judges within the theocracy of Israel, whose constitution was the Torah

So how much of the torah is applicable/ who say's what is and what is not?

Could fullfil in Matt 5:17 mean as the writter implies throughout his gospel. See Fullfiiled Matt 1:23 written in Isa 11:1, Matt 1:15 written in Hos 11:1, Matt 2:6 written in Micah 5:2, God said he would send the Jews a prophet like unto Moses Matt 4:2 written in Exod 34:28, The new covenant Matt 26:28 written in Exod 24:6-8

These are just a few used to explain my position, but there are many more.

Kind Regards
John From Ebla

This post is just to add a few examples to the above post that show Jesus and Paul taught the same thing.

Jesus and Paul taught the reality of Satan, and that evil spirits war against the souls of human beings.(Matthew 4:1-11, Luke 22:31-34) (Ephesians 6:11-20) Both speak of the devil as a real and active being.

Jesus and Paul preached about moral purity in the realm of sexual conduct. Paul said, "fornicators and adulterers God will judge" (Hebrews 13:4). Jesus said, that there was adultery even in the repeated "glance of the eye" (Matthew 5:28)

Jesus and Paul preached the doctrine of love and forgiveness. (Matthew 5:44) (Ephesians 4:32)
Jesus and Paul preached salvation through the blood, which He (Jesus) shed on the Cross. (Matthew 26:28) (Ephesians 1:7).

Jesus and Paul about marriage (Matthew 19:3-5) (Ephesians 5:28-33)
Jesus and Paul on heaven, not on earthly things (Matthew 6:19-21) (Colossians 3:1-2)
Jesus and Paul both taught that, His (Jesus) blood saves (Matthew 26:28) (Colossians 1:20)
Jesus and Paul both taught of New covenant in Him (Jesus) (Luke 22:20) (1 Corinthians 11:25)
Jesus and Paul taught that believers are light. (Matthew 5:14) (Ephesians 5:8)
Jesus and Paul taught about the testimony of two or three witnesses (Matthew 18:16) (1 Timothy 5:19)

Jesus and Paul taught that evil comes from the heart (Matthew 15:18-19) (Romans 1:24)

Kind regards
John From Ebla

[Provoker]

Hello John:
Jesus was a fundamentalist Jew, and Paul was a nominal Jew converted to fundamental Judaism, and so they were both aware that ever since the covenant nation of Israel had ceased to exist, no one had been under God's laws, because God's laws had only applied to the covenant nation of Israel.
When a first century Jew accepted the good news that the Davidic kingdom was going to be resurrected, and understood why it was going to be resurrected, he obviously realized that he had never actually been under the Mosaic law, but that he had only been keeping a tradition.
Jesus encouraged his converts to continue in their Jewish traditions, and not to use their new-found freedom to stop doing what is right. Rather than stop practicing laws that were good, they should rather get into the spirit of doing those traditional acts, even though they were under no legal requirement from God.
With Paul and his gentile converts it was a different kettle of fish. The Mosaic law was never part of their culture, and to make them start keeping the Mosaic law, would have been to imply that keeping the law was a requirement of conversion.
Paul had to continually put out fires that Judaizers started among the gentile converts, and he explained it quite clearly to his gentile converts, that it was not keeping the law, or traditions, that made one a **TRUE** Jew, but it was circumcision of the heart...which is obviously a heartfelt committment to the everlasting covenant, which they would become part of when the kingdom of Israel is resurrected sovereign on the promised land.
When Jesus preached "the spirit of the law" to the Jews who practiced the law as a tradition, he was saying exactly the same thing...make a heartfelt committment to the everlasting covenant, which they would "again" be a part of, when the kingdom of Israel is resurrected sovereign on the promised land.
The message was exactly the same, it is just that the cultures of the people were different. Both the Jews, and the gentiles, were simply encouraged to maintain their own culture after their conversion.
The lesson in the issue is that a change of heart is required, not a change of cultural or tradition.

[Richbee]

Mat 5:17. How do others understand this verse? Was Jesus a Jew that taught Judaism?

Hello? Where were you when Jesus proclaimed the TRUTH(TM)???



Or a Nazarene (meaning branch or Seperated One) that was proclaiming the New Covenant? (Christian faith, The Good News Mark 1:1-4)

Kind regards

John From Ebla

Merry Christmas!

:joy:


Quote:

Jesus and....

".....his appeal to Isaiah 61:1-2 suggests that he understood himself as the one "anointed" of the Lord, that is, as Israel’s Messiah. A recently published scroll from Qumran has lent additional support to this traditional Christian belief.

According to 4Q521,

"Heaven and earth will obey his Messiah and all that is in them will not turn away from the commandments of the holy ones ... for (the Lord) will honor the pious upon the throne of the eternal Kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down…. For he will heal the wounded, revive the dead, proclaim good news to the poor."

This passage, which contains allusions to Isaiah 26:19 (raising the dead), 35:5-6 (opening the eyes of the blind), and 61:1-2 (proclaiming good news to the poor), parallels Jesus’ reply to John the Baptist. Because 4Q521 implies that these wonderful things happen at the time of the Messiah, we may correctly assume that by describing his ministry in the same terms, Jesus was telling John that, yes, indeed he is the Messiah, the "one who is to come."

Now look at:

"Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

Source: Jesus and Judaism, By Craig A. Evans (www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/judaism.htm)

[John from Ebla]

Hello? Where were you when Jesus proclaimed the TRUTH™??? ]

In the Lambs book of life- and through his death and ressurection l have the hope of my name not been blotted out.



Merry Christmas!

:joy:

Joy to the world the 'Lord' has come, "King of Kings and Lord of Lords' sitting at the right hand of God the eternal Fathe.


Jesus and....

".....his appeal to Isaiah 61:1-2 suggests that he understood himself as the one "anointed" of the Lord, that is, as Israel’s Messiah. A recently published scroll from Qumran has lent additional support to this traditional Christian belief.

According to 4Q521,

"Heaven and earth will obey his Messiah and all that is in them will not turn away from the commandments of the holy ones ... for (the Lord) will honor the pious upon the throne of the eternal Kingdom, setting prisoners free, opening the eyes of the blind, raising up those who are bowed down…. For he will heal the wounded, revive the dead, proclaim good news to the poor."

This passage, which contains allusions to Isaiah 26:19 (raising the dead), 35:5-6 (opening the eyes of the blind), and 61:1-2 (proclaiming good news to the poor), parallels Jesus’ reply to John the Baptist. Because 4Q521 implies that these wonderful things happen at the time of the Messiah, we may correctly assume that by describing his ministry in the same terms, Jesus was telling John that, yes, indeed he is the Messiah, the "one who is to come."

Now look at:

"Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

Source: Jesus and Judaism, By Craig A. Evans (www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/judaism.htm)


Looks like it was just as written "the word was God and the word became flesh" (John 1:1-3,10,14) Abraham was happy to see his Days. John 8:56 Do peope ever wonder how Abraham knew this Messiah?

Seasons greetings
John From Ebla

[Provoker]

Looks like it was just as written "the word was God and the word became flesh" (John 1:1-3,10,14) Abraham was happy to see his Days. John 8:56 Do people ever wonder how Abraham knew this Messiah?The day which Abraham saw, was the day that God promised him that his seed would inherit the land between the Euphrates and the Nile. The reason that Jesus called it his day, is because Jesus was proclaiming "the day of the Lord", in which Abraham's seed will finally inherit the promised land "forever"..."the resurrection of the kingdom of Israel".
Abraham never knew anything about any messiah, or how "the day" would come about..only that it would.
John, and Jesus, simply proclaimed how God's promise to Abraham would come about.
Remember, God's promise to Abraham was simply that Abraham's seed would inherit forever, the land between the Euphrates and the Nile, but until Abraham's seed is perpetually sovereign on that land, the inheritance has not yet taken place, and that is where the everlasting(new) covenant comes in.
When Abraham's seed finally resurrect the kingdom of Israel, on the land between the Euphrates and the Nile, God will make His "New" covenant, which will cause newly resurrected Israel, and every generation of Israel after, to keep the law by nature, thus forever fulfilling the everlasting(old) covenant.

[Straylight]

To the OT:

It depends on what "Judaism" means.

If it means a person who is able to cram a Rashi quote into every other sentence they spoke, then no, he wasn't a Jew.

If it means someone who placed the Tanakh above oral tradition and lived by the words contained in the Torah, then yes, he was a Jew.

[sylvius]

To the OT:

It depends on what "Judaism" means.

If it means a person who is able to cram a Rashi quote into every other sentence they spoke, then no, he wasn't a Jew.

If it means someone who placed the Tanakh above oral tradition and lived by the words contained in the Torah, then yes, he was a Jew.

ah you hate Rashi?

term OT is a christian invention; born from prejudice and misunderstanding of what is really 'new'.

Rashi commented great on what is new:
Exodus 12:2,
This Moses found difficulty [determining] the [precise moment of the] renewal of the moon, in what size it should appear before it is fit for sanctification. So He showed him with His finger the moon in the sky and said to him, “You must see a moon like this and sanctify [the month].” Now how did He show it to him? Did He not speak to him only by day, as it says: “Now it came to pass on the day that the Lord spoke” (Exod. 6:28); “on the day He commanded” (Lev. 7:38); “from the day that the Lord commanded and on” (Num. 15:23) ? Rather, just before sunset, this chapter was said to him, and He showed him [the moon] when it became dark. — [from Mechilta]

[Provoker]

ah you hate Rashi?

term OT is a christian invention; born from prejudice and misunderstanding of what is really 'new'.

Rashi commented great on what is new:
Exodus 12:2,
This Moses found difficulty [determining] the [precise moment of the] renewal of the moon, in what size it should appear before it is fit for sanctification. So He showed him with His finger the moon in the sky and said to him, “You must see a moon like this and sanctify [the month].” Now how did He show it to him? Did He not speak to him only by day, as it says: “Now it came to pass on the day that the Lord spoke” (Exod. 6:28); “on the day He commanded” (Lev. 7:38); “from the day that the Lord commanded and on” (Num. 15:23) ? Rather, just before sunset, this chapter was said to him, and He showed him [the moon] when it became dark. — [from Mechilta]
Who is/was Rashi?
Which came first, the Jews, or Judaism?
What kind of a movement is an "ism", and what kind of person is an "ist"?
Jews are not mentioned in my bible, until the Babylonian captivity, and that coincides with the messianic prophesy that a child would be born who would receive the kingdom of his father David.
It is my opinion that that prophesy, which was the "good news of the kingdom", was the beginning of the nationalist movement called "Judaism", and those who believed the good news of the kingdom, were Judaists/Jews. The original Jews were messianic, because they believed in the coming messiah, and when messianic is translated into first century common Greek, it becomes our word "christ". The first Jews were the first Christians, even though the word was not yet used.
By Jesus day, the Jews were backslidden, and Jesus called them the lost sheep of the house of Israel, so the word "Jew" had no "true" significance anymore.
Paul confirmed this point when he told his converts that they did not have to keep Jewish laws and rituals to be "true" Jews, but must have a circumcised heart.
When the original(true) Jews became backslidden, they lost their circumcision of the heart, and their circumcision of the flesh was nothing more than a ritualistic tradition.
John and Jesus came to bring nominal Jews back into the "true" Jew fold, by healing their backsliding, but he taught his disciples the good news of the kingdom, and commissioned them to preach it to everyone in the world.
Apostolic "Christians" were simply "true Jews", watching and waiting for the messiah, but that fact was covered up by the official universal religion of the Roman empire, which established a doctrine which would be universally acceptable to all the pagan/Christian factions which were called to the first ecumenical council at Nicea, in 325.
So Judaism(nominal) is the practice of traditional rituals which mimic the laws and rules of the long dead covenant nation/kingdom of Israel, and "True" Judaism is a heartfelt committment to the resurrection of the covenant nation/kingdom of Israel.
Neither modern Judaism, nor modern Christianity, appears to fit the bill.
So what do you think constitutes "Judaism"?

[Straylight]

term OT is a christian invention

That's not what was I talking about.

OT is an acronym for "Original Topic" (In a wider internet use at least...I'll stop using it from now on though, since it could cause confusion). I'm just saying "To the original topic, my reply is...."

-----------------

And no, I don't hate Rashi. I just find him completely irrelevant when the subject of Pre 70 CE Judaism is brought up. That's like mentioning Pope Leo IX when discussing what were the norms of the early Catholic Church.

[sylvius]

That's not what was I talking about.

OT is an acronym for "Original Topic" (In a wider internet use at least...I'll stop using it from now on though, since it could cause confusion). I'm just saying "To the original topic, my reply is...."

-----------------

And no, I don't hate Rashi. I just find him completely irrelevant when the subject of Pre 70 CE Judaism is brought up. That's like mentioning Pope Leo IX when discussing what were the norms of the early Catholic Church.

Rashi relies on Jewish tradition that goes far back before CE, back to Abraham, you can say, like Jesus's genealogy after Matthew goes back to Abraham.

Rashi is an acronym of Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchaki.
He starts his commentary on theTorah by quoting Rabbi Yitzchak, his father, as to say: nothing of which I offer in this commentary I invented myself, but all I got via my father.

[Straylight]

Rashi relies on Jewish tradition that goes far back before CE, back to Abraham, you can say, like Jesus's genealogy after Matthew goes back to Abraham.

Rashi is an acronym of Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchaki.
He starts his commentary on theTorah by quoting Rabbi Yitzchak, his father, as to say: nothing of which I offer in this commentary I invented myself, but all I got via my father.
No, his tradition doesn't go that far back. There are many examples of more ancient Rabbi's who differ with him.

An 11th century French Rabbi can not definitively speak for people who 1) existed 1000 years before him 2) who existed in a different land and culture 3) had a religion centered on temple and sacrifice instead of oration and books 4) didn't live with the widespread consciousness of Christianity as he did.

If his tradition went that far back (And it doesn't. Only the Tanakh can speak for itself), then he'd interpret almost everything as messianic, instead of exilic. He's a man of his times, sometimes reactive and reinventive because of the backdrop in which he lived.

[sylvius]

[QUOTE=Straylight]
Only the Tanakh can speak for itself [QUOTE]

how then Tanakh speaks to you?

[Straylight]

how then Tanakh speaks to you?

Through him who is the living Word.

"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." [John 5:39-40]

[sylvius]

Through him who is the living Word.

"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." [John 5:39-40]

ain't that what is called 'oral tradition' i.e. 'Torah sheh b'al peh'?

[Straylight]

ain't that what is called 'oral tradition' i.e. 'Torah sheh b'al peh'?

Heh...

No. Unless you consider the Burning Bush to be part of the "oral tradition" as well.

[sylvius]

Heh...

No.

the question was:

how then Tanakh s p e a k s to you?

you answered: through him who is the living Word.

maybe I must ask now: in what way then speaks the written Torah (or Tanakh) through him who is the living word?
(i.e. the written Torah that is commented by a.o. Rashi)

Unless you consider the Burning Bush to be part of the "oral tradition" as well.

Do I understand well the Burning Bush means a lot to you?
What?
(I for myself compared the gospel of Mark to a burning bush)

[Straylight]

the question was:

how then Tanakh s p e a k s to you?

you answered: through him who is the living Word.

maybe I must ask now: in what way then speaks the written Torah (or Tanakh) through him who is the living word?
(i.e. the written Torah that is commented by a.o. Rashi)

I gave you that quote from John. It was meant to convey that the written word speaks messianically to me.

Heck, even the rabbinic "oral tradition" agrees with me and not Rashi at times (it's schizophrenic like that):

"Rabbi Chiyya ben-Abba said in Rabbi Yochanan’s name: All the prophets prophesied only for the days of the Messiah." (Sanhedrin 99a)

[sylvius]

It was meant to convey that the written word speaks messianically to me.
(Sanhedrin 99a)


can you give an example of that?

[Straylight]

can you give an example of that?

Why do you ask me that? It's one thing to feign ignorance about Jesus being the Messiah, and another to feign ignorance about a Messiah being promised.

Gen. 49:10
Num. 24:17
2 Sam. 7:12,13
Psa. 22:16
Psa. 89:27
Psa. 89:35-37
Psalm 110
Isa. 9:6,7
Isa. 11:1-10
Isa. 42:1-9
Isa. 49:1-7
Isa. 50:4-11
Isa. 52:13-53:12
Isa. 55:4,5
Jer. 23:5-6
Jer. 31:31-34
Jer. 33:14-15
Eze. 17:22-24
Eze. 34:23-24
Dan. 7:13-14
Dan. 9:24-26
Mic. 5:2
Zech. 3:8
Zech. 6:12-13
Zech. 9:9
Zech. 11:1-17
Zech. 12:10
Zech. 13:7

[sylvius]

Why do you ask me that? It's one thing to feign ignorance about Jesus being the Messiah, and another to feign ignorance about a Messiah being promised.

Gen. 49:10
Num. 24:17
2 Sam. 7:12,13
Psa. 22:16
Psa. 89:27
Psa. 89:35-37
Psalm 110
Isa. 9:6,7
Isa. 11:1-10
Isa. 42:1-9
Isa. 49:1-7
Isa. 50:4-11
Isa. 52:13-53:12
Isa. 55:4,5
Jer. 23:5-6
Jer. 31:31-34
Jer. 33:14-15
Eze. 17:22-24
Eze. 34:23-24
Dan. 7:13-14
Dan. 9:24-26
Mic. 5:2
Zech. 3:8
Zech. 6:12-13
Zech. 9:9
Zech. 11:1-17
Zech. 12:10
Zech. 13:7

I meant something else; this is what is called 'pshat'-reading; Jewish tradition knows four levels of meaning, as acronym forming the word 'pardes', orchyard; pshat-remez, drash , sod.
Rashi was only in for 'pshat', as he declared, f.e. on Genesis 3:8 And they heard There are many Aggadic midrashim, and our Sages already arranged them in their proper order in Genesis Rabbah and in other midrashim, but I have come only [to teach] the simple meaning of the Scripture and such Aggadah that clarifies the words of the verses, each word in its proper way., by this of course declaring he acknowledges the reality of the other levels.

Rashi on Genesis 49:10,
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.

until Shiloh comes [This refers to] the King Messiah, to whom the kingdom belongs (שֶׁלוֹ) , and so did Onkelos render it: [until the Messiah comes, to whom the kingdom belongs]. According to the Midrash Aggadah, [“Shiloh” is a combination of] שַׁי לוֹ, a gift to him, as it is said:“they will bring a gift to him who is to be feared” (Ps. 76:12). - [From Gen. Rabbah ed. Theodore-Albeck p. 1210 ]

[Straylight]

I meant something else; this is what is called 'pshat'-reading; Jewish tradition knows four levels of meaning, as acronym forming the word 'pardes', orchyard; pshat-remez, drash , sod.

I know of the fourfold sense of reading the scriptures. The NT and Early Church did the same thing. The difference between the followers of the Messiah however is that, unlike the Rabbis, they are confessional first and foremost, and can restrain themselves. The Rabbis have no overarching belief or authority that dictates the outcome of their exegesis.

[IncRus]

Mat 5:17. How do others understand this verse? Was Jesus a Jew that taught Judaism? Or a Nazarene (meaning branch or Seperated One) that was proclaiming the New Covenant? (Christian faith, The Good News Mark 1:1-4)

Kind regards
John From Ebla

The Bible teaches that Jesus was SENT into the world to SAVE God's people from their SIN (Matt. 1:21) and that the world through him might be SAVED (John 3:17).

Therefore, Matthew 5:17 is related to the mission that God SENT Jesus to accomplish.

Jesus said he came to FULFILL the LAW. What LAW did Jesus COME to FULFILL in order for him to accomplish his mission? How is Jesus able to save people from their sins by "fulfilling the law?"

Aposle Paul said that "the wages of sins is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 6:23). While it is true that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23), how is the "wages of sin" applied?

Does God have a LAW concerning the "wages of sin?" Of course, He does.

In Ezekiel 18:20 the Bible teaches: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. " Further in Deuteronomy 24:16, the Bible teaches: "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

This is the LAW that Jesus CAME to FULFILL in order to SAVE the world from sin THROUGH him. And according to Jesus, "...till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfiled" (Matt. 5:18).

Therefore, in order for one to be SAVED, one must be ONE with Jesus in FULFILLING this LAW. This is what the "gospel of Christ" is all about.

[sylvius]

I know of the fourfold sense of reading the scriptures.

Hebrew 'sod' is Greek 'musthrion'.
Mark 4: 11-12, He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables,
so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven."

This here said i.c.w. the parable of the sower, which seems to be about four levels of hearing; hearing of what? the seed is the word, but who is the sower?

the key might be 'a hundredfold', Hebrew 'meah shearim', with gematria of 666, ask the rabbi: http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/274/Q1/

'Meah shearim' to be found in Genesis 26: 12.

Rashi of course knows about the number 666, better than the christians of his time (and also than those of our time).



And Isaac sowed in that land, and he found in that year a hundred fold, and the Lord blessed him.
in that land [The land yielded an abundant harvest] even though it was not considered as esteemed as the Land of Israel itself, i.e., as the land of the seven nations (Gen. Rabbah 64:6).
in that year Even though it was not as it should have been, for it was a year of famine (Gen. Rabbah ad loc.).
in that land…in that year Why both of them? To tell us that the land was hard and that the year was a hard one.
a hundred fold For they had estimated how much it [the land] was fit to produce, and it produced for each measure that they had estimated, one hundred [measures], and our Rabbis said that the purpose of this estimate was for tithing. [Gen. Rabbah 64:6]

'The beast and his number' found in WOII its real meaning: 'the beast' i.e. the train to Auschwitz; 'his number', i.e. the amount of unvoluntary passengers.


The NT and Early Church did the same thing.
The difference between the followers of the Messiah however is that, unlike the Rabbis, they are confessional first and foremost, and can restrain themselves. The Rabbis have no overarching belief or authority that dictates the outcome of their exegesis.

"the followers of the Messiah", who do you mean by that; and where are they to be found nowadays?

[Straylight]

"the followers of the Messiah", who do you mean by that; and where are they to be found nowadays?

Usually on message boards feeding trolls.

[sylvius]

Usually on message boards feeding trolls.

Are they the workers of the eleventh hour?


Adam and Eve sinned in the tenth hour of the sixth day, according to Jewish tradition.

Rashi on Genesis 3:8, to the direction of the sun To that direction in which the sun sets, and this is the west, for toward evening, the sun is in the west, and they sinned in the tenth [hour]. — [from Gen. Rabbah 19:8, Sanh. 38b]

Rabbi Winston (www.thirtysix.org) holds that momentary we're living in the tenth hour of the sixth millennium; tenth hour began in 1990; and more: it is the era of world wide web, internet, which is (like) the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

[Straylight]

Speaking of Adam, it's about time that I just put you on /ignore and kick dust in your face. If you wish to make a feast on the ashes of Rashi, then so be it. Have a full measure of him. If you do not want flesh and blood and the Tree of Life, then dust you will get.

And don't think it is I that am cursing you. It's your own need to be an overt agitator and adversary of Jesus and his followers that curses you. You would have been better off putting me on /ignore first instead of opening your mouth.

[sylvius]

Speaking of Adam, it's about time that I just put you on /ignore and kick dust in your face. If you wish to make a feast on the ashes of Rashi, then so be it. Have a full measure of him. If you do not want flesh and blood and the Tree of Life, then dust you will get.

And don't think it is I that am cursing you. It's your own need to be an overt agitator and adversary of Jesus and his followers that curses you. You would have been better off putting me on /ignore first instead of opening your mouth.

???????

[Ebionite]

Yeshua was a Northern Essene MYSTIC Of the Nazir vow, his followers were Ebionite, they had no thought of a kingdom of this world it is"within you". They did not ingage in aminal sacrfice. Every Scholar out there has an axe to grind and Yeshua would have about as many woes toward them today as he did the ling scribes of his day. Yeshua agreed with the prophets that the pen of the scribes had made the torah a falsehood. When the Ebionite scriptures are unearthed what will you think?


Through him who is the living Word.

"You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." [John 5:39-40]