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Exmo-Robertson
July 5th 2003, 03:21 PM
The Miracle of Forgiveness
THUS SAITH THE LORD...

gift\'gift \noun: Something that is bestowed voluntarily, freely, and without payment...

D&C 14v6-7 "Keep my commandments in all things. And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."

grace\'grãs \noun: God's undeserved, unmerited favor.

D&C 130v20-21 "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated--And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

gospel\'gäs-pél \noun: Good news; glad tidings.

D&C 42v59-60 "Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law, to be my law to govern my church; And he that doeth according to these things shall be saved, and he that doeth them not shall be damned if he so continue."

The entrance requirements for the celestial kingdom and forever families:

D&C 18v46 "And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father."

D&C 25v15 "Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come."

1 Nephi 3v7 "...for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

What is destruction? How many will receive it?

Matthew 7v13-14 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Jacob 6v10-11 "...for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment. O then, my beloved brethren, repent ye, and enter in at the strait gate, and continue in the way which is narrow, until ye shall obtain eternal life." (Outer darkness vs. eternal life?)

Perfection required now.

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.286: "...we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' (Matt. 5v48) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us."

James 2v10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.2: "To this end [eternal life, not mere immortality] God created man to live in mortality and endowed him with the potential to perpetuate the race, to subdue the earth, to perfect himself and to become as God, omniscient and omnipotent."

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.16: "And let us not suppose that in calling people to repentance the prophets are concerned only with the more grievous sins such as murder, adultery, stealing, and so on, nor only with those persons who have not accepted the gospel ordinances. All transgressions must be cleansed, all weaknesses must be overcome, before a person can attain perfection and godhood."

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p.8: "The Lord will not translate one's good hopes and desires and intentions into works. Each of us must do that for himself."

Repentance required for forgiveness...

D&C 19v3-4 "...the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless." (Repent or suffer)

D&C 58v42-43 "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins--behold, he will confess them and forsake them." (To stop sinning)

What does "repent" mean?

Spencer W. Kimball, Repentance Brings Forgiveness (LDS tract): "If the sinner neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, or fails in his prayers and other responsibilities, he is not completely repentant."

Spencer W. Kimball, Repentance Brings Forgiveness "The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again."

D&C 82v7 "Go yours ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God."

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 164: "Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin."

Spencer W. Kimball, Repentance Brings Forgiveness: "The Lord and his church can forgive, but not easily... There is forgiveness if you totally repent." (Which means there is forgiveness only if you totally stop sinning.)

How we know if we have truly stopped sinning...

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of forgiveness, p. 95,97: "Shirking of responsibility in the kingdom, brings inevitable condemnation... Declining to serve when called may constitute a sin of omission... if one merely lounges about doing nothing on the Sabbath, he is breaking it..." (Can you ever know when you've stopped missing every opportunity to do good works--sins of omission?)

Spencer W. Kimball, Repentance Brings Forgiveness: "The repenting person must start on the never-ending task of keeping the commandments of the Lord. Obviously this can hardly be done in a day, a week, a month, or a year, but must go on all one's life." (No length of time will ever make us sure that we have really stopped sinning.)

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 325: "it depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes."

2 Nephi 25v23 "It is by grace that we are saved, after all you can do." (First we must do all we can do.)

Moroni 10v32-33 "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be prefect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot." (Cleansing from sin comes only after you stop all ungodliness (sinning), and keep the first and greatest commandment, which includes the entire law of God. This is "all we can do.")

Matthew 5v20, 27-30 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven... Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offended thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Have you plucked out your eye and cut off your hand yet? You still have something more you can do.)

Matthew 19v21 "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." (Have you sold all your possessions and given the money to the poor to follow Jesus? You still have something more you can do.)

Spencer W. Kimball, Repentance Brings Forgiveness: "Remember that to obtain forgiveness from the Lord and his Church one must: (1) realize the seriousness of the sin and pray in great humility and sorrow, (2) forsake the sin and not repeat it, (3) confess the sin to the bishop or other Church authority, (4) restore as far as possible that which was damaged, and (5) live all the commandments of the Lord. And when he has fasted enough, suffered enough, and when his heart is right, he may expect that forgiveness will come..." (Have you ever come close to actually fulfilling steps 2 & 5 to obtain forgiveness?)

If Christ returned today, are you ready? Have you sufficiently repented and perfected yourself to escape God's wrath and enter the celestial kingdom?

Alma 5v27-32 "Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved! Yea, even wo unto all ye workers of iniquity; repent, repent, for the Lord God hath spoken it!"

Do you fear the second coming, or look forward to it?

Titus 2v13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

2 Timothy 4v8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

There is another way to attain legal perfection.

Hebrews 10v14-17 "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." (It is the new covenant in His blood. He perfects us for all time!)

Romans 3v20-25 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall be flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood..."

Colossians 2v9-10, 13-14 "For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete [perfect] in him, which is the head of all principality and power: ...And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

Do you believe Jesus Christ?

John 6v47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." (LDS footnote says this promise refers to exaltation.)

There is a better hope (It's a person, not a church!)

Luke 7v37-50 "And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, And stood at his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgive them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anointment. Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sin, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven; the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace." (Quite a contrast from the hopelessness of President Kimball's Five Steps.)

gift\'gift\ noun: Something that is bestowed voluntarily, freely, and without payment...

Romans 4v4-5; 6v23 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness... For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

A gift is free, or it is not a gift. Imagine that your dearest friend was leaving for a time, and offered you an expensive and very sentimental and meaningful gift, like his grandfather's ring. First, it is important to remember that such a gift is never forced, but offered. It must be received willingly or it cannot be yours. Secondly, you would not consider diving into your wallet to find a few dollars to help defray part of the cost of the ring. It would be the highest of insults to your dear friend. Thirdly, if it had such high sentimental value you would not cheapen his gift by immediately hocking it for cash, or throwing it on the ground.

So it is with the greatest gift that Heavenly Father could offer: the gift of a full pardon, a legal declaration of righteousness, and eternal life in His presence in the celestial kingdom. Though it is offered freely, it is not cheap, for it cost Him the life blood of our precious Savior in order to offer it. It does not give license to sin, but on the contrary moves us to keep the first and all-encompassing command, to love God, without even trying to muster it.

What shall I do to do the works of God?

John 6v28-29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

John 1v12-13 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Romans 10v8-13 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved . For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Again, do you believe Jesus Christ?

John 6v47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

1 John 5v13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life."



Reprinted from my web site, the article can be found at: http://exmormon.8m.com/forgive.html

T.J. Maxx
July 5th 2003, 03:46 PM
Still pasting web articles are we?

Here is another that puts this issue into perspective:

http://www.anti-mormonism-revealed.com/M20111.htm

I'd paste the entire thing but I know it would get deleted.

Exmo-Robertson
July 5th 2003, 03:57 PM
Today @ 08:46 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140211#post140211)
T.J. Maxx:

Still pasting web articles are we?



The BB allows it T.J. For someone who says he isn't LDS, you sure spend a lot of time defending it. hmmmmmm.....

dizzle
July 5th 2003, 04:02 PM
What is it with the martyr complex? Please see the following rule:

Debates (points for your position) made via weblink is not allowed. Weblinks may be used only as a point of reference or for further information regarding your position.


There is nothing wrong with posting an article if the poster is willing to defend and discuss it as if it were his own. Posting another author's article just in response is hardly appropriate, but if you are going to do that simply you must post the whole thing, not just a weblink. Your comment was simply childish and I also remind you of this rule.


Please respect any comments/warnings by the Moderators. Any grievances with their action should be addressed to the Forum Administrators in Private Message, Email or in the Dean’s Office. If you feel you must repetitively complain, whine, or otherwise bellyache, please take it to the Locker Room.

Your behaviour is not winning any brownie points. Either you personally have something to add to this debate or you do not. Simply posting an article in response is not acceptable and is disruptive to this forum. Interact personally with the points, which will force Robertson to do that same.

These personal vendettas are old. If Kevin wants to respond so badly tell him to come himself instead of using you as his mouthpiece.

dizzle
July 5th 2003, 04:04 PM
Today @ 03:57 PM post located here (http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=140225#post140225)
Exmo-Robertson:



The BB allows it T.J. For someone who says he isn't LDS, you sure spend a lot of time defending it. hmmmmmm.....


Dana, if that is an article from another site please provide proper credit as is required in this rule:

If other authors are cited in a post, proper credit must be given. Preferably a web link if available to the source. Posts containing copyrighted material without due credit given will be promptly deleted.

Please do that for any article you post for if someone shows us where it was cited from without credit, it will be deleted. Thank you.

T.J. Maxx
July 5th 2003, 06:29 PM
Unbelievable. You deleted my post and left Dana's in tact while giving him a "warning," even though he did the same exact thing! You should probably know by now that many of his thread starters begin with a paste from his web site. You call my post a "disruption" because the response was a simple web address like I've seen so many times on this forum??? I fail to see how this "disrupts" anything except Dana's argument, and we can't have that happen now can we?

There is no flow of conversation going on here. We get one long diatribe from "Ex-Mormon," and then follow up one-liner comments of shock from the onlookers, but that is about it. So how does my offering an LDS perspective "disrupt" anything? This is crazy.

And you think you are "adding to the discussion" in a positive way by flinging your own attacks into the mix by saying that I am working for Kevin as his mouthpiece!

Kevin is responding to my emails that I send him and answering me directly, he is not using me as a way to respond to Bill or Dana. I doubt he even knows I posted the email, and he is responding to me because I'm currently interested in these topics and I want an LDS response. Obviously you guys only care about ex-LDS responses which speaks more about your willingness, or lack thereof, to have serious discussions. Imagine if ex-Christians were the only ones participating in a discussion on Christainity.

Dee Dee you are the one who emailed me two weeks ago asking me to come back to the boards, and now that I have you want to strong-arm me into what I can say and who I can defend, while Dana is free to post second or third hand accounts from mystery atheists. And you question the bias here? I am trying to add balance to this discussion since you guys have run off all the Mormons. Is this really all you want, ex-Mormon and anti-Mormon perspectives on Mormonism?!?!?

So far any attempt to fight fire with fire, responding to Dana with web articles like his own are not welcome.

Either they are

1) too short, in the form of weblinks that you call "disruptive."

Or the responses are

2) too long, which we can't really do much about that because all LDS reponses to these attacks are confined to 50k characters. Haven't you ever heard of the saying that some questions require long answers? Well, when people like Dana plaster two dozen comments like those in his thread starters, then what do you expect the responses to look like? This is why Kevin challenged Dana to deal with one subject at a time. But being on his own turf, Dana took advantage of the Evangelical referee and refused to do so. If we are really interested in the LDS responses, I don't think we would really care about the length. If you can put up with hundreds of posts that are confined to "Wow", "Oh I didn't know that," simple emoticons, etc, that contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion itself, then why can't you handle something that actually interacts with the discussion at hand.

:thumb:

Nice goin.

Please respect any comments/warnings by the Moderators. Any grievances with their action should be addressed to the Forum Administrators in Private Message, Email or in the Dean’s Office. If you feel you must repetitively complain, whine, or otherwise bellyache, please take it to the Locker Room.

And I am not simply moving it to the Locker Room because you know better. Rebut the article but argument by weblink and dualing articles are not permitted. If you want Dana to have to post something new, go on the offensive and post your article first, have you ever thought of that?

It is perfectable acceptable to start a thread with an article. You have poor reading comprehension if you thougth Dana was warned for hte same thing you were edited for. He was not. He was asked to provide the source for his article, and now I learn it is his own website, thus there are no plagiarism issues.

And if you had simply posted the entire article (if it was short enough - 24k) it would have remained. If it was too long, you simply could have said, "Well let's take this one piece at a time, shall we?" and proceeded to post a portion and then moved on. But no you chose to handle it different and buck whenever any authority corrects you. Dana has been rebuked many times here, and I know he does not agree with each stricture I have put upon him, but he respects the authority in place here, somethikng which you nor Kevin has done. Marc Schindler has demonstrated his willingness to follow forum rules, and I do wish I would see him back here. He was a gentlemen in the midst of disagreement.

Exmo-Robertson
July 5th 2003, 06:40 PM
T.J.
You are violating the rules of the forum. If you have a complaint about Dee Dee's action you need to send her a private message. Watch your post go to the locker room.

T.J. Maxx
July 6th 2003, 07:44 AM
Unbelievable.

SlaveofChrist
July 6th 2003, 09:10 AM
Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness p. 206- "The moste fellacious doctrine originated by satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God, that belief in Jesus alone is all that is needed for salvation"

"Mormonism is Christianity, Christianity is Mormonism"-:doh:

dizzle
July 6th 2003, 09:49 AM
For by grace you have been saved through faith......

T.J. Maxx
July 6th 2003, 10:20 AM
Well, the link that was suppressed discussed the context of this statement, but since no objective form of discussion is welcome, it is pointless for me to try providing it. Can't have "disruption" now can we.

Stop making a fool of yourself. If you wish to dispute the information posted above without simply posting a link and going "So there!!!" then go ahead. And to put an end to this totally babyish conspiracy theory bellyaching.... here is the dreaded link:

http://www.anti-mormonism-revealed.com/M20111.htm

Now if you personally have something to add TJ Maxx then do so, otherwise you are behaving like a troll.

Exmo-Robertson
July 6th 2003, 02:19 PM
T.J. claims not to be Kevins puppet, but the link he cries and boo hoo's over takes us to what? An article written by Kevin!!!! :rofl: