Can we call Abraham Our Father

[Joe Gofish]

From the KJB, Rom.4:16-17 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

How can we call Abraham "Father" is this not against the Bible as in Matt 7:6

[commonman]

From the KJB, Rom.4:16-17 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

How can we call Abraham "Father" is this not against the Bible as in Matt 7:6

Joe,

I think you are having a little problem understanding to whom or what the title of father belongs. This scripture does not say that Abraham is the father of us all. It says, "the faith of Abraham; who is father to us all,...."

It is a very important distinction and should raise other questions about the meaning of this passage.

Let me know how that goes for you.

[Provoker]

From the KJB, Rom.4:16-17 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

How can we call Abraham "Father" is this not against the Bible as in Matt 7:6

Hello Joe:
"Father of us all" was spoken to a Jewish audience, thus the reference to us, but that may be a bit of a red herring because Israelites, and later Jews, were a mixed people right from the exodus.
All that was required to be an Israelite, was to commit to living within the law, within the nation/kingdom(signed by circumcision of the flesh). All that was required to be a Jew, was a heartfelt committment to the resurrection of covenant Israel(signed by circumcision of the heart).
Jesus was re-proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, which had first been proclaimed by prophets in Babylon during the captivity, and those backslidden, nominal Jews, who heard Jesus message and committed to "the gospel of the kingdom"(circumcised their hearts), became "true" Jews, and true children of Abraham.
Jesus taught the gospel of the kingdom to his disciples, and commissioned them to preach it to everyone in the world, and just as Israel was a mixed people from the beginning, whosoever will circumcise his heart(commit to keeping the everlasting(old) covenant in the coming kingdom), becomes a "true" Jew, grafted into the family of Abraham, becoming abraham's seed.
There is no difference between nominal Jew and gentile, as far as being a "true" Jew, and the coming kingdom is concerned.
What do you think?

[Joe Gofish]

Joe,

I think you are having a little problem understanding to whom or what the title of father belongs. This scripture does not say that Abraham is the father of us all. It says, "the faith of Abraham; who is father to us all,...."

It is a very important distinction and should raise other questions about the meaning of this passage.

Let me know how that goes for you.
I think herding cats is actually easier then trying to help Jude to understand.

[Hitch]

From the KJB, Rom.4:16-17 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

How can we call Abraham "Father" is this not against the Bible as in Matt 7:6When we were boys we used to ask whether God could make a rock so big the He couldnt lift it. Grow up.

[Ken1Burton]

God making a rock so big He can not lift it? I heard of that. Maybe that is why God’s Words was likened to a Hammer:

(JEREMIAH 23:29) Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and
like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? (KJV)

Abraham? Now is Abraham really Abraham? Or a Similitude?

“”and calleth those things which be not as though they were. “”

Abraham as Genesis tells the Story is not really what God is showing:

(ISAIAH 63:16) Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be
ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Lord, art
our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. (KJV)

Abraham’s Horror of great darkness is Midnight to sunrise as Jesus took sin upon Himself, that is “Outer Darkness.” Abraham’s going to offer Isaac is Jesus has to cast off the Dust of His feet, and the House of Israel did not receive Jesus, so the Disciples have to be shaken off.

The day of the cross is seen as 3 pictures, the first is Iniquity, second is Mischief, third is falsehood. the Disciples are the workers of Iniquity told to depart. Seeing their response shows it is them saying “Lord, Lord.”

(MATTHEW 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works? (KJV)
(MATTHEW 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:
depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (KJV)

(LUKE 13:26) Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in
thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. (KJV)
(LUKE 13:27) But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye
are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. (KJV)

Jesus is reaching for Non-Jews. Something that is not going over too well with the Disciples. Peter is the one who denies Jesus before men.

(PSALMS 7:14) Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath
conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. (KJV)

To hate Jesus wrongfully (Yep, 11 of the Disciples) you get to be multiplied. by 1,000 that is.

(PSALMS 38:19) But mine enemies are lively, and they are strong:
and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied. (KJV)

(DEUTERONOMY 1:11) (The Lord God of your fathers make you a
thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath
promised you!) (KJV)

They are blessed as Jesus promised, and it was to bless those who hate you. the blessing is to make them 1,000 times more then they are.

(PSALMS 91:7) A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand
at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. (KJV)

The right hand is Sunset to Midnight, it is also the wayside of the Sower parable. The Disciples are the seeds which fell. Good ground is noon to sunset. all the fours in Revelation, Fourth seal is the pale horse, Death followed by hell as Jesus died and descended into hell. The day as 3 pictures, 30 fold, 60 fold, 100 fold. All parables are for the day of the cross.

(MARK 4:13) And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and
how then will ye know all parables? (KJV)

Parable of the Bigger barns is reaching for all mankind, not just the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The day as 3 pictures is as leaven hidden in three measures of wheat. The day is made as 7 days in Isaiah 30:26, seen as 3 pictures also seen as days, or ten days total. so the ten coins etc. Jesus healed 10 Lepers, only One is seen to give glory, like the day of the cross, Where are the Nine?

The day is first seen as 4 6-hour periods as 4 beasts with 6-wings, then the second as 2 12-hour periods as two witnesses, third as 1 24-hour period as 24 Elders. All the Seven’s in Revelation is looking at the day of the cross as 7 time periods.

God doubles twice to establish His words, so the day is made as a week, the second picture as a day is made as a week, The Witnesses are dead three days and a half, or half a week each. Life enters into them when they are fulfilled and made truth.

Everything seen as unclean or as lies TILL they are fulfilled and made truth. that is the lying spirit God sent. the Similitude is for Jesus to go up and die at Calvary:

(1KINGS 22:20) And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he
may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner,
and another said on that manner. (KJV)
(1KINGS 22:21) And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the
Lord, and said, I will persuade him. (KJV)
(1KINGS 22:22) And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said,
I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all
his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail
also: go forth, and do so. (KJV)
(1KINGS 22:23) Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying
spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath
spoken evil concerning thee. (KJV)

So the Three unclean spirits like frogs is the day as 3 pictures, the parable of the seven unclean spirit that enter the man is for Jesus the day of the cross, Cute part is the Old World is ending, New world is beginning, so the end of that man happened first, Jesus is the Beginning and the ending.

The day of the cross is the Birth of the Body of Christ, it is a day taken out of time. Not to be counted, the name of the day is “For ever” and the name for the 4 6-hour periods is given in Genesis, and Abraham is Midnight to sunrise. Jesus is “Lord God of our Father’s” during ht e first 6-hours,

He is the god of Jacob from noon to sunset, He wrestles with a man of has to allow Himself to die. He does, then Esau comes, Esau is Edom seen as a Desolate wilderness, God hated Esau or the time Jesus had to be dead, Over Edom He cast out His shoe, sin ended, We are on Holy ground.

(EXODUS 3:15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say
unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God
of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me
unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto
all generations. (KJV)

“This is My Name FOR EVER” or the day of the Cross.

(2SAMUEL 7:12) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep
with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall
proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. (KJV)
(2SAMUEL 7:13) He shall build an house for my name, and I will
stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (KJV)

God establishes the Kingdom of the son of David raised to be the Son of God FOR EVER or the day of the cross, and the day is as a House built.

(PROVERBS 9:1) Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her
seven pillars: (KJV)

(PROVERBS 24:3) Through wisdom is an house builded; and by
understanding it is established: (KJV)
(PROVERBS 24:4) And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with
all precious and pleasant riches. (KJV)

Wisdom is seeing the day as 7 time periods, Understanding is seeing the day as 3 pictures or doubled twice to establish it as Truth, Knowledge is putting the pieces in the right place.

When the day of the cross started, God poured out His spirit upon all flesh, or we all became part of the Body of Christ, No innocent babies, no innocent as unable to reason, We all together became as an unclean thing, all One, all as guilty.

So Abraham is Midnight to sunrise, Being in the Bosom of Abraham is those who were alive as God poured His spirit upon all flesh (not those dead in hell, They are in the spirit world, not flesh.) are in the Bosom of Abraham or Dead in Christ.

Then during the third 6-hour period, “With His stripes we are healed.” Or as resurrected from the dead. The third physical day will be a future similitude for what has already happened, resurrected to life by being healed by His stripes.

Now the Third 6-hour period is the Judgment of Christ. It is the Black horse with balances. Jesus is weighed in the Balance and found wanting. He has healed us, He has not gotten the others out of hell as Zechariah 9:11 shows He has to be there when it happens. Hosea 6:2 shows it has to be the third day.

The third angel sounds, the Star Wormwood falls, Stars are for a sign, it is the Sign of the Judgment falling on Jesus, Jesus is made all things cursed, even the earth, earth destroyed by fire is Jesus dies, God’s word seen like as a fire in Jeremiah 23:29.

(AMOS 5:7) Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off
righteousness in the earth, (KJV)

Before I forget, Judas did not hate Jesus so only 11 got multiplied:

(PSALMS 55:12) For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I
could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did
magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: (KJV)
(PSALMS 55:13) But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and
mine acquaintance. (KJV)

Judas was fulfilling the prophecies:

(ZECHARIAH 11:13) And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the
potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the
thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house
of the Lord. (KJV)

(PSALMS 2:12) Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish {from}
the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed {are} all
they that put their trust in him. (KJV)

(LUKE 22:48) But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son
of man with a kiss? (KJV)
Judas hesitated, that is not a question, It was a commandment to get it over with and do what had to be done to fulfill Scripture.

I got a long way from Abraham, But not really. Abraham is Jesus from Midnight to sunrise. The entire day is as Adam. The day as 1,000 years, alive 930 as Adam, dead or desolate 70 as Jerusalem.

(ISAIAH 46:10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from
ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel
shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (KJV)

The ancient times is Creation story, Abraham, Noah, Sodom, etc, Not done till the day of the cross.

Sunset to Midnight, “Let there be Light.” I am the True Vine, I am the Good Shepherd, I am the Way, the truth and the Life, In My Father’s House are many mansions, Etc, etc, as the Light is poured out. The Beginning is the Beginning of the new world. The old World has no beginning, and the New World has no end.

Ken

[Provoker]

Hello Ken:
I think that the key to understanding the bible, is in rightly dividing scriptural "similitude" from scriptural "fact", and the lack of "rightly dividing" is probably the main reason why there are so many doctrinally disagreeing denominations and sects of Christianity.
How about this for a novel approach? Since God made the physical laws by which the world, and the universe, operates, and God is a just and righteous God, then we should assume that He operates within His own established laws...otherwise, there would be no reason for anyone to serve Him.
When we read the bible, if we would consider that all scriptural events which would require the breaking of God's laws of physics, are most likely recorded as "similitudes", and are not meant to be taken literally...and on the other hand, events which would be perfectly normal within the natural laws of physics, are recorded as factual history, we might discover a story which would be more consistent with a righteous and holy(law abiding) God.
God doesn't need man, but He uses men, which suggests that He is inclined to operate within the laws that He has put mankind under. Just because God can do miracles, does not mean that it is God's practice to perform miracles, or that we should expect Him to perform miracles.
I'm inclined to think that logical scripture is logicly historical, and that illogical scripture is "similitude"(metaphore/allegory).
What do you think?