Im an Exorcist, what bout you?

[~Natsumi Lam~]

General BG:

Name: Mrs Lam
Occupation in Christ: Intercession. prophecy, and exorcism
Age of assigned jobs: 9, 14, and 10


In my training as an exorcist i get these questions[now for you]:

Questions One: "Can a Christian Have a demon?"
Note: In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 we see we have a body, soul and spirit:
It’s important to understand the difference between being demon
possessed and being demonized. In the New Testament, the Greek
word 'daimonizomai' is used to express the presence of demonic spirits
within a person. The spirit for those who are 'saved' are God's. The body
can still be healed, renewed, and worked on. The soul [our emotional,
thought process, and who we are] "needs to be renewed daily". Those
Soul and Body are able to have filth. So when possession is mentioned it
means a presence of a demon either 'oppression [persuading actions,
thoughts or intents], or residing within us . Not ownership!

-> My answer: yes. Basis... seen it, had demons personally. Biblical:[so
many but to pick two]...." why clean a house, if after it is cleaned it
is not occupied,so 7xs worse will return to inhabit it, that person will
be left off 7xs worse". Meaning... if you clean the demons out
of an 'unsaved' he will not have the spiritual backing or rather Christ
to inhabit the house.... so 7xs worse will befall him. Christ must fill
the place of the hole. If you are 'saved' and are possessed get
them out and fill it with more Christ[body and soul]. Dark and light
SHOULD NOT.. not can not coexist... meaning there is a possibility
of dark and light coexisting... thus leading to the idea that for some
it does coexist... ie Peter in Matthew 15:21, demonic persuation .
[B]
Question Two: who should be an exorcist?


Question Three: Spookey business or normal life?

Question Four: your experiences with the demonic?

~Natsumi Lam~

[Cynic Sage]

General BG:

Name: Mrs Lam
Occupation in Christ: Intercession. prophecy, and exorcism
Age of assigned jobs: 9, 14, and 10


In my training as an exorcist i get these questions[now for you]:

Questions One: "Can a Christian Have a demon?"
Note: In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 we see we have a body, soul and spirit:
It’s important to understand the difference between being demon
possessed and being demonized. In the New Testament, the Greek
word 'daimonizomai' is used to express the presence of demonic spirits
within a person. The spirit for those who are 'saved' are God's. The body
can still be healed, renewed, and worked on. The soul [our emotional,
thought process, and who we are] "needs to be renewed daily". Those
Soul and Body are able to have filth. So when possession is mentioned it
means a presence of a demon either 'oppression [persuading actions,
thoughts or intents], or residing within us . Not ownership!

-> My answer: yes. Basis... seen it, had demons personally. Biblical:[so
many but to pick two]...." why clean a house, if after it is cleaned it
is not occupied,so 7xs worse will return to inhabit it, that person will
be left off 7xs worse". Meaning... if you clean the demons out
of an 'unsaved' he will not have the spiritual backing or rather Christ
to inhabit the house.... so 7xs worse will befall him. Christ must fill
the place of the hole. If you are 'saved' and are possessed get
them out and fill it with more Christ[body and soul]. Dark and light
SHOULD NOT.. not can not coexist... meaning there is a possibility
of dark and light coexisting... thus leading to the idea that for some
it does coexist... ie Peter in Matthew 15:21, demonic persuation .
[B]
Question Two: who should be an exorcist?


Question Three: Spookey business or normal life?

Question Four: your experiences with the demonic?

~Natsumi Lam~
You left questions 2 to 4 unanswered.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

i know ..


~NL~

[JSDileo]

General BG:

Name: Mrs Lam
Occupation in Christ: Intercession. prophecy, and exorcism
Age of assigned jobs: 9, 14, and 10


In my training as an exorcist i get these questions[now for you]:

Questions One: "Can a Christian Have a demon?"
Note: In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 we see we have a body, soul and spirit:
It’s important to understand the difference between being demon
possessed and being demonized. In the New Testament, the Greek
word 'daimonizomai' is used to express the presence of demonic spirits
within a person. The spirit for those who are 'saved' are God's. The body
can still be healed, renewed, and worked on. The soul [our emotional,
thought process, and who we are] "needs to be renewed daily". Those
Soul and Body are able to have filth. So when possession is mentioned it
means a presence of a demon either 'oppression [persuading actions,
thoughts or intents], or residing within us . Not ownership!

-> My answer: yes. Basis... seen it, had demons personally. Biblical:[so
many but to pick two]...." why clean a house, if after it is cleaned it
is not occupied,so 7xs worse will return to inhabit it, that person will
be left off 7xs worse". Meaning... if you clean the demons out
of an 'unsaved' he will not have the spiritual backing or rather Christ
to inhabit the house.... so 7xs worse will befall him. Christ must fill
the place of the hole. If you are 'saved' and are possessed get
them out and fill it with more Christ[body and soul]. Dark and light
SHOULD NOT.. not can not coexist... meaning there is a possibility
of dark and light coexisting... thus leading to the idea that for some
it does coexist... ie Peter in Matthew 15:21, demonic persuation .
[B]
Question Two: who should be an exorcist?


Question Three: Spookey business or normal life?

Question Four: your experiences with the demonic?

~Natsumi Lam~


There is no such thing as an 'excorcist'. Any Christian with the Holy Spirit can excorcise demons. I've seen my own family members excorcise demons.

As for question four...I witnessed an excorcism when I went to Zimbabwe, Africa. At the time I went with my family I was an agnostic, and seeing such a dramatic event really shook me up. To me it was inconceivable that a spiritual realm could exist. Those two last sentences were a bit off topic, but whatever.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

an exorcist is a person who has chosen the deliverance ministry as their active profession in a church or on a normal basis. The frontmen in the war for the souls. it is just a definition of choice. more a secular definition.

Like i said... it is questions that i have been asked... so it is on topic ... all under the title of " Questions i have been asked"

ps. mark 16 should have been included in part one and two

~NL~

[furay]

I wouldn't attempt it myself - better to call a Priest who is trained in the Rite of Exorcism to perform it.

[Ryokan]

I am skeptical of how often it happens, or even exactly what is being referred to when Jesus drove out demons in the bible. It seems odd that intellectuals, elites, and or people of renown in developed countries are so rarely afflicted, and yet the poorest, most backwater, and least educated suffer the most. Are demons culturally selective? Are demons truly worth all the concern? Vs. things like lust, envy, greed, pride, etc. which plague me at least daily?

[~Natsumi Lam~]

I wouldn't attempt it myself - better to call a Priest who is trained in the Rite of Exorcism to perform it.


i am being trained in that. Im not a priest but a christian on a mission.

Remember the 12 were not priest... just 'Christians' with a called mission,

"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get
well."

I just share the same mission

~NL~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

I am skeptical of how often it happens, or even exactly what is being referred to when Jesus drove out demons in the bible. It seems odd that intellectuals, elites, and or people of renown in developed countries are so rarely afflicted, and yet the poorest, most backwater, and least educated suffer the most. Are demons culturally selective? Are demons truly worth all the concern? Vs. things like lust, envy, greed, pride, etc. which plague me at least daily?


demons cant work with most intellectuals like a common everyday guy. Most intellectuals overanalyze their life, leaving little room for abonormal things to creep in. Yet, the demon of pride could overtake an intellectual easier than an average joe. When you think you are the man.... and no one can top you.... you act, talk and began to think you "own the throne"... much like satan.

Now satan works in the us by using his best trick " Make it look like he isnt real". Americans wouldnt believe the witchdoctor in everyday life.... most americans dont believe in palm readers....yet other countries feed on superstitions. THey guide their everyday lives. Demons work through those superstitions. Yet those demons have to go unnoticed and work behind the scenes in the US. A grip of demons latch on to those who like and then become addicted to porn. IE Lieing, deceit, lust and so on.

We are bombarded everyday with nudity, perverse actions and so on. Some drink and dont make it their life. WHat is the difference between the drunkard and the person who drinks every so often? The difference is... every addiction whether illegal, drinks, porn, or even internet dependency allows parts of us to go unguarded. Now, you and i deal with lust everyday[for most], when we choose to act on it... mental -> heart -> physical [no matter the stage] we are going to be making personal and moral compromises. Remember " Guard your hearts and minds" because " Satan comes to steal, kill and distroy". As we slowing give up our rights... we slowly give up our freedoms. Maybe the first day we decide to give into deep thought of those lust. We are asked at church about our thought patterns, and we choose to divert and/or lie. Strike one... the next day we choose to think about him/her more and about certain parts of them.... then we are giving way to lust of the mind.... then we go on and on till they are in our hearts... and so on. Put on the armor of God " shoes -> guard where we go" .... "belt -> guard loins" .... " breastplate -> hearts" .... "helmet-> our minds" and so on. God has given each to protect us from others and from ourselves. Satan works in steps... remember .. those who are exposed to radiation dont notice the effects till after it is eating at them.

So know that you and I are not the same in all we do.... we think different thoughts, live different lives, have different families, have different callings.... so demons have to mold to who and what we are so that they are most effective in their mission " to kill steal and destroy" who and what we can be in God. So yes, demons work undercover... because if they worked in the open in the US or other counties similiar to the US ... they would be shut down. Remember those who are percieved as lunitics and psychos are sedated[sp?] and put in a cage.... how effective would that demon be on that person, if that person is locked up and outside of society's reach. WHile in peru... some lunitics are revered and given gifts ... that is what you call a witch doctor.

~Natsumi Lam~

[Meh_Gerbil]

I am skeptical of how often it happens, or even exactly what is being referred to when Jesus drove out demons in the bible. It seems odd that intellectuals, elites, and or people of renown in developed countries are so rarely afflicted, and yet the poorest, most backwater, and least educated suffer the most. Are demons culturally selective? Are demons truly worth all the concern? Vs. things like lust, envy, greed, pride, etc. which plague me at least daily?

I'm not entirely sure what I think of it all either.

That being said, being demoned possessed doesn't seem to do much for one's bottom line -- running around naked and cutting yourself has a tendency to lower your economic status, unless of course you are discovered by a San Franciso S&M club, in which place you'll be a super star, but still poor after your agent gets his fees.

[Darth Executor]

It seems odd that intellectuals, elites, and or people of renown in developed countries are so rarely afflicted, and yet the poorest, most backwater, and least educated suffer the most.

Really? It makes perfect sense to me. Why would demons bother western citizens who don't believe in them (or God)? They get to have their fun with westerners after they're dead.

[Meh_Gerbil]

Me?

It is my prayer I never see, hear, or experience in anyway (either personally or second hand) anything to do with the denomic world.

[Darth Executor]

Me?

It is my prayer I never see, hear, or experience in anyway (either personally or second hand) anything to do with the denomic world.

Yeah I hate math too. Demon hunting on the other hand...
I once considered becoming a demonologist in my spare time but I lost interest in reading so...

[Ryokan]

:lol: I'm not entirely sure what I think of it all either.

That being said, being demoned possessed doesn't seem to do much for one's bottom line -- running around naked and cutting yourself has a tendency to lower your economic status, unless of course you are discovered by a San Franciso S&M club, in which place you'll be a super star, but still poor after your agent gets his fees.

[Ryokan]

demons cant work with most intellectuals like a common everyday guy. Most intellectuals overanalyze their life, leaving little room for abonormal things to creep in. Yet, the demon of pride could overtake an intellectual easier than an average joe. When you think you are the man.... and no one can top you.... you act, talk and began to think you "own the throne"... much like satan. But, do we need a demon to do all that. pride afflicts the high, the low, and me. And we aren't afflicted by demons mostly, right? Men, not demons, cause the evil in this world. Our sin, not a couple renegade angels, is the problem.

Now satan works in the us by using his best trick " Make it look like he isnt real". Americans wouldnt believe the witchdoctor in everyday life.... most americans dont believe in palm readers....yet other countries feed on superstitions. THey guide their everyday lives. Demons work through those superstitions. Yet those demons have to go unnoticed and work behind the scenes in the US. A grip of demons latch on to those who like and then become addicted to porn. IE Lieing, deceit, lust and so on. I am confused. Satan prefers to attavk those that don't believe in him, or those that do. You said both!

We are bombarded everyday with nudity, perverse actions and so on. Some drink and dont make it their life. WHat is the difference between the drunkard and the person who drinks every so often? The difference is... every addiction whether illegal, drinks, porn, or even internet dependency allows parts of us to go unguarded. Now, you and i deal with lust everyday[for most], when we choose to act on it... mental -> heart -> physical [no matter the stage] we are going to be making personal and moral compromises. Remember " Guard your hearts and minds" because " Satan comes to steal, kill and distroy". As we slowing give up our rights... we slowly give up our freedoms. Maybe the first day we decide to give into deep thought of those lust. We are asked at church about our thought patterns, and we choose to divert and/or lie. Strike one... the next day we choose to think about him/her more and about certain parts of them.... then we are giving way to lust of the mind.... then we go on and on till they are in our hearts... and so on. Put on the armor of God " shoes -> guard where we go" .... "belt -> guard loins" .... " breastplate -> hearts" .... "helmet-> our minds" and so on. God has given each to protect us from others and from ourselves. Satan works in steps... remember .. those who are exposed to radiation dont notice the effects till after it is eating at them.

So know that you and I are not the same in all we do.... we think different thoughts, live different lives, have different families, have different callings.... so demons have to mold to who and what we are so that they are most effective in their mission " to kill steal and destroy" who and what we can be in God. So yes, demons work undercover... because if they worked in the open in the US or other counties similiar to the US ... they would be shut down. Remember those who are percieved as lunitics and psychos are sedated[sp?] and put in a cage.... how effective would that demon be on that person, if that person is locked up and outside of society's reach. WHile in peru... some lunitics are revered and given gifts ... that is what you call a witch doctor.

~Natsumi Lam~I am just a little skeptical still.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

satan attacks those who choose to compromise... yet there are those exceptions like Job.


as far as everyday pride. Yes, everyone has it.... but when demonic pride steps in.... it is like a leeching steroid.... hard to knock the habit that is "stealing" your life.


Just remember satan works and kills undercover. Remember you dont have to achknowledge that radiation can kill you... or even accept it. But when you are exposed.... you will notice the effects even if you think positive or pretend it isnt there. Remember .... you can tell by people's fruits [not fruit of a loom] on what side they are playing for... and you can tell what outside influence is dominating but their character.

The more you begain to make friends and buddies with a chemist and discuss what he discusses... the more you will notice the breakdown of how our physical world works. The more you hang out with the Word and Him [and not just frooofy christianity]...the more you will see the breakdown of the battle waring for us. Remember " We fight not flesh and blood...." we fight those principalities [aka a level of demonic] and those in high places ....

If you peel back our physical world you will see what is really going on. And who is just a play toy. Remember dont pay attention to the physical "set your eyes above" that is where the real action is.

~NL~

[Keumkang]

There's a very interesting book on the subject of demonic posession by a Jesuit priest, Father Malachi Martin. It chronicles 5 stories of posession of Americans in the twentieth century. These are written very well, so that one might think it fiction, except that all are documented. The cases documented by Martin seems much more like the traditional posession than the more recent "demonic oppression," and he details them painstakingly, giving as much attention to both the exterior signs as the interior struggle. According to Martin, the priest threw himself into a tremendous clash of wills, and often paid a price for it.

Anyone else read it? Liked it?...Hated it?...Burned it in ritual fashion?

Mrs. Lam, your thoughts on the book, or on the RC Rituale Romanum exorcism would be appreciated.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Mrs. Lam, your thoughts on the book, or on the RC Rituale Romanum exorcism would be appreciated.


well as far as that book... i havent read that book but i have read a grip of others[i will check it out though]. i will check it out tonight and i will let you know :)


~Natsumi Lam~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

ok .. as far as the Rituale Romanum [dealing with exorcism soully]... i hear about it often. It is basically the proceedures or rather outlining of how/ when where who and so on that an exorcism should be performed. this is what i have heard and read...

Well, the problem with the Rituale Romanum's approach is that it only concentrates its efforts towards the demonic side of the demon possessed person. It doesnt find out where, when, and how the person got inflicted with the demons. For instince, some demons are generational.... they are passed down from generation to generation until their hold is broken[exorcism] or their time to be passed is over[God set a set number of generations for curses and blessings to be passed]. Likewise, some emotional 'personalities' or 'multiples' are passed on. For instance.... my great great great grandfather was a rapist and a molester, so was my great grandfather, and my grandfather .... [i will talk about my dad in a bit.. he was not any of the above]. Now the demon of lust, insest, rape, lieing and so on was passed generationally. When each of my great great, great and grandfather inflicted perversion upon their children... their children became emotional crippled, wounded and so on. Some to last their whole life. Now the Rituale Romanum only deals with the demonic... not the emotional scaring. We are a three part person. All three parts must be healed to function as the person God has us to be. If you yank the demon out... he is sure to rip and tear on the way out. Just work him out like a thorn... God's timing is all good, it is the best.No need to yank and tear without knowing how they got there and what they " stole, killed or distroyed". Some take joy, health and so on. You go to make sure they return that 7 fold before they leave... dont want that demon that caused health problems to leave his 'seed' there without taking it with him.

When you pull the demon out... you got to find how it lawfully came in, and can it lawfully stay. Demons work in the spiritual law, they are bound by it... so you got to find out where they are rightfully staying. How it woundened the person while it was in. And what is the key to break its lawful right to be there. Rituale Romanum deals with the pulling out, not how it is or has torn the person ... or how they have been emotionally damaged. Many times the key to deliverance is forgiveness... my aunts had to forgive my grandpa for raping her... and if she doesnt... the demon has lawful right to be there. No person is emotionally the same... so you got to deal with the emotions, heal them, and then get the demons out or that person will have some lasting tearing. I think that is what Rituale Romanum is missing... emotional awarness. If anyone objects... let me know... i am willing to learn even more!!!

Also i find another part of it disturbing.... equal to what is above. Rituale Romanum [to me] and the whole practice of exorcism from the Roman Catholic perspective is very orderly without the personal power[not for all!!!! but for a lot][Please dont think i have a problem with it specifically.. it is just with how some choose to use it]. Many times, like in the Exorcist or Emily Rose you will see priest pray a 'certain' prayer... not including direct bible scriptures... wave the cross.... throw oil... march around 7 times [or whatever]...basically it is act without power[scare the demon out]. Exorcizing a demon is not a set ruitine with set .. ' kneel 200 times a day' and so on. It is all in knowing who Jesus is... and who He is in me!!!! He is the power and without Him, demons wouldnt Go... you would yell all day and spout all day... and kneel all day.But until someone recognizes the power has been given to ME in Him and through Him and through His name... it will be vain repetition with grim outcomes. Remember it is not the power in the purple clothes, or the cross itself. It is power in Jesus. Emily Rose is a very good example of how ritual kills without the power. So... when you go and

pray over that person
1. Is that person 'saved'
2. Do they know Jesus, God and who He is in them
3. Do they know they have power in His name
4. Do they know taht their will plays a big role
and so on....

it is not a set rutine other than stuff like the basics ie making sure you got your Bible[its your sword], Know The Power!!, Person saved, everyone is ready for battle[have other Christians with you], Plead the Blood over the room, know the key spiritual fighting verses and all there.. and so on. Remember we are not alone,,, the Holy Spirit was given to us to be that helper.. Make sure you are in God's will and you are off. Dont worry God's got your back, it is His battle anyways... you are just their to aid Him.

No, i am not advising to jump into the boat without knowing your enemy.. just talking about personal experiences.


as far as the other book... do you know the name, i will try to look up by author but it is hard?

~Natsumi Lam~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

let me correct myself... the last thread is what i know... not what i have soully read or heard... it is something i know of personally.


~NL~

[Cynic Sage]

Hi, Natsumi, it's me again.

I notice how you ascribe certain sins to certain demons (i,e: "Pride-demon", "Lust-demon" "Lying-demon" ect.) Is there any scriptural basis for that?

Aside from that, isn't lust a sin of the "flesh"? And does everybody who lies have a "lying-demon"?

Thanks,
Johnny Eccentric.

[Darth Executor]

Hi, Natsumi, it's me again.

I notice how you ascribe certain sins to certain demons (i,e: "Pride-demon", "Lust-demon" "Lying-demon" ect.) Is there any scriptural basis for that?

Aside from that, isn't lust a sin of the "flesh"? And does everybody who lies have a "lying-demon"?

Thanks,
Johnny Eccentric.

The OT associates spirits with certain sins, though I think they're just metaphors.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Hi, Natsumi, it's me again.

I notice how you ascribe certain sins to certain demons (i,e: "Pride-demon", "Lust-demon" "Lying-demon" ect.) Is there any scriptural basis for that?

Aside from that, isn't lust a sin of the "flesh"? And does everybody who lies have a "lying-demon"?

Thanks,
Johnny Eccentric.

yes... demons have names.. some given by their role some given by their choiced name. [Biblical]Legion[name of many 2000- 6000], deaf and dumb spirit... and so on.

Demons go by names and function....

No not all people who lie have demonic 'backing'... some just lie. While others do have demonic opression and 'possession'. Like I said above... demons are like a leeching steroid. Discernment and the the person's fruits willl tell you if it is souly the person or more than that. Lust is a sin of the flesh... it is also a demon[ function/ name or both]. This demon is commonly seen in rape victims, sexual abuse cases, and people who are obsessed with porn ...so on. He works quietly, but has lasting effects!!! makes it look like you have the whole problem you cant get rid off... he is really there pulling the strings to make people have a 'need' or a strong desire for porn or lust over people... more than just the norm level of lust. Demons let people have their free will but step in to intensify the 'need' or 'want' for that sin to continue... ie they make people ' not beable to kick the habit'. Like a drunkard who always has to go back to AA. IE I used to have to deal with porn and a desire for azn guys. I tried to 'get my mind out of the gutter' but i had such a desire more than the normal level. So i prayed about it and went to some of my buddies in God. They got Lilith and Jezebel out of me and i didnt even know about those two. So i could even pretend it had then because i didnt even know about them. Since then... not need for porn, no abnormal lust for guys, i dont manipulate guys anymore. I am a completely different person in that area.

SO i know first hand the difference between normal lust sin and the abnormal demonic 'help'. So yes , demons have a given[sometimes by self] and a function. Yes there are demons called lust and there are lust of the flesh. And for people who lie, some have demonic persuation [good example is a pathalogical lier] while others just lie sometimes. But rememeber God says you know with what team the person is playing for in each part of their life by their fruits.

~NL~

[Lady Macbeth]

Questions One: "Can a Christian Have a demon?"

Question Two: who should be an exorcist?
Question Three: Spookey business or normal life?
Question Four: your experiences with the demonic?

I'll answer these questions from my perspective (and note that these are from my experience and education, and that both are going to be wholly different - that little symbol next to my name and avatar space shows that there are non-Christian ideas included), and then touch on a few other things mentioned in this thread.

1: Yes, a Christian can "have a demon". What is a Christian? One who believes in and follows the Christ and his teachings. Does that mean that every Christian does everything they are supposed to do in pursuit of this goal? No. Even if they did, evil pursues all people - the Fallen One himself is said to have tempted the Christ; I hardly think that any of us measure up to Him.

2: Only trained and world-experienced persons should be exorcists. I'm sorry; it's nice that your parents were liberal enough to let you become that deeply involved in the Church at those ages - however, it is not something that should be left up to children. No child has the proper education or life experience to be an exorcist.

3: It's normal life; all of the spirit realm is normal life. Those who are "spooked" by the spirit world need to live more.

4: Protection against; I don't deal with demons, period. Shielding myself and others, and helping others over come their own demons (spiritual or symbolic) is all I need to do.

I am skeptical of how often it happens, or even exactly what is being referred to when Jesus drove out demons in the bible. It seems odd that intellectuals, elites, and or people of renown in developed countries are so rarely afflicted, and yet the poorest, most backwater, and least educated suffer the most. Are demons culturally selective? Are demons truly worth all the concern? Vs. things like lust, envy, greed, pride, etc. which plague me at least daily?

How often this happens is less than many people think. Demonic possession is often a case of mistaken identity. Particularly in the under-educated and developing world's peoples, common ailments - including Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, hyperactivity, dyslexia, Parkinson's Disease, Alzheimer's Disease, depression, bipolar disorder and many other physical and neurological disorders are mistaken for demonic possession. They do not know the cause for the problem or have access to anyone who does, so it is assumed that it is a demon doing it. True demonic possession rarely happens because the average person just is not worth their time or effort. Spiritually sensitive but untrained persons and those with other remarkable gifts or talents may be targeted, because they have potential for being useful in one shape or another. Even then, not all posesssions are by what are truly "demons" - there is a wide variety of spirits, both natural and human, who are capable of possessing a body that is made available to them.

But, do we need a demon to do all that. pride afflicts the high, the low, and me. And we aren't afflicted by demons mostly, right? Men, not demons, cause the evil in this world. Our sin, not a couple renegade angels, is the problem.

You are correct, Ryokan. To expand a little further on this:

Men cause evil because they have some knowledge of evil. We had evil within the bloodline from the start. This is one of the fundamental things that is overlooked in the Bible, because of the tendency to "quote Scripture". Men (as per their nature) break Scripture down into the individual quotes that support their supposition or belief; in doing so, the text is taken out of context, and thus becomes influenced by bias rather than its supporting text.

Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was not the "Tree of CREATION of Good and Evil" - it was KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil. The good and evil were both inherent in them - it originated in Adam, and through him in Eve. Upon eating of the fruit of that tree, they realized this fact, and became ashamed of the evil within themselves. They made an attempt to cover up the evil, yet it persisted, and in the end they were forced to explain to God that they knew it existed and were trying to hide it.

Rewind in history (but fastforward in the Book) to the First Fall. The angel Samael, named in Scripture as the Satan ("The Betrayer" or "The Deceiver"), was hugely offended by the idea that angels should give honor to these creations of dust and bone, and that the same creations, polluted with the elements of the earth and divided between good and evil, might one day bring that same pollution to Heaven. He quarreled with God on this point and was cast out of Heaven, along with those angels who followed him, to the Earth, that they might reside there until their Judgement came.

These angels ("demons", as they have come to be called) have no interest in humans aside from those who might encourage us as a race to rise above our place in the Universe. It's an ongoing belief in their minds that they are our betters and deserve the honor and rights afforded such. They will not get it from Heaven henceforth, and it is rare that they receive it from us. Thus there is an eternal antagonism between us and them, but no particular mutual interest.

The Second Fall: summarized in Genesis but told indepth in Enoch. A second band of angels looking down upon us found beauty and appeal in human women - "the daughters of men". They descended willingly to Earth to take the women they loved as their wives. They married them, loved them, and showered them with gifts. They taught them to work gold and jewels like Heaven had and taught them the secrets saved only for the spiritual world, including divination, mastery of the elements and other spiritual arts. These couples had children who promised to excel the human race to something they had never been before - the "giants of men" born of these unions were the worlds greatest heroes, warriors, artisans and other remarkable people. They possessed the nature of their fathers and the beauty of their mothers. Upon seeing this corruption of the humans, as they were created by God, God set down punishment that these angels, and their descendants, would also be forever trapped upon the Earth until their Judgement came, and for the transgression of the gifts and children these angels had given the human women, they and their descendants would be Judged harshly; they would not be able to plead their case to God of their own accord, and they would be seen as the source of all evils of men.

This is where we find the "demons" most often blamed for our wrongs, particularly Lust - as it was considered Lust that brought those angels to Earth in the first place. Those of us who practice what are today called the "occult arts" are practicing in those same gifts afforded by those angels to their wives and children. Any writing on the subject, including Enoch, suggests that those angels wanted to help us, and showered such gifts upon their wives through love. Why would such a being choose to possess a human, an act that is hurtful to the host, as it absolves them of free will and puts them under the control of the possessing spirit? In short - they wouldn't, and they don't.

What drives the vast amount of evil in the world then, if only a few cases of it are due to demon possession? Our own selves. We are the cause and cure of that suffering. We can seek God and/or Jesus for help in that cure - both have offered up their hand in aid. But we cannot blame the cause of that suffering on demons - because they do not offer up their hands in that direction, except as I mentioned before, in rare and particular cases.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

i understand the physical elements of demon possession.. and those who look to be so. I also know about MPD and those demonized and those not....


I fully understand and know about the medical aspects of demonized/ appearance of demonization. Other than that.


If you claim, [according to your symbol] i can assume that yoiu are comming from a non-christian perspective. I understand you have a working knowledge of this area in both experience and education...

but remember it takes more than knowledge and experience to fight an external pressure , you must have that of equal or greater pressure within. Knowledge of the biblical only gets you so far without the internal wisdom that inharrently[sp?] comes with staying close to God.

Thanks for your input!!!! Awsome facts!!

PS. i only started the deliverance ministry when i was an adult... when i was a child i knew [nothing to do with my parents] my call in life. Similar to my educational goals for a money paying job,

~Natsumi Lam~

Remember " A house that is divided cant stand".

[betzerg]

demons cant work with most intellectuals like a common everyday guy. Most intellectuals overanalyze their life, leaving little room for abonormal things to creep in. Yet, the demon of pride could overtake an intellectual easier than an average joe. When you think you are the man.... and no one can top you.... you act, talk and began to think you "own the throne"... much like satan.

Now satan works in the us by using his best trick " Make it look like he isnt real". Americans wouldnt believe the witchdoctor in everyday life.... most americans dont believe in palm readers....yet other countries feed on superstitions. THey guide their everyday lives. Demons work through those superstitions. Yet those demons have to go unnoticed and work behind the scenes in the US. A grip of demons latch on to those who like and then become addicted to porn. IE Lieing, deceit, lust and so on.

We are bombarded everyday with nudity, perverse actions and so on. Some drink and dont make it their life. WHat is the difference between the drunkard and the person who drinks every so often? The difference is... every addiction whether illegal, drinks, porn, or even internet dependency allows parts of us to go unguarded. Now, you and i deal with lust everyday[for most], when we choose to act on it... mental -> heart -> physical [no matter the stage] we are going to be making personal and moral compromises. Remember " Guard your hearts and minds" because " Satan comes to steal, kill and distroy". As we slowing give up our rights... we slowly give up our freedoms. Maybe the first day we decide to give into deep thought of those lust. We are asked at church about our thought patterns, and we choose to divert and/or lie. Strike one... the next day we choose to think about him/her more and about certain parts of them.... then we are giving way to lust of the mind.... then we go on and on till they are in our hearts... and so on. Put on the armor of God " shoes -> guard where we go" .... "belt -> guard loins" .... " breastplate -> hearts" .... "helmet-> our minds" and so on. God has given each to protect us from others and from ourselves. Satan works in steps... remember .. those who are exposed to radiation dont notice the effects till after it is eating at them.

So know that you and I are not the same in all we do.... we think different thoughts, live different lives, have different families, have different callings.... so demons have to mold to who and what we are so that they are most effective in their mission " to kill steal and destroy" who and what we can be in God. So yes, demons work undercover... because if they worked in the open in the US or other counties similiar to the US ... they would be shut down. Remember those who are percieved as lunitics and psychos are sedated[sp?] and put in a cage.... how effective would that demon be on that person, if that person is locked up and outside of society's reach. WHile in peru... some lunitics are revered and given gifts ... that is what you call a witch doctor.

~Natsumi Lam~

just exactly where do we find a "demon of pride, or lust"...in the scriptures.
Most of the demons in the NT had specific personal names that identified them....ie "legion" or "bellzebub" etc.

And the excuse of a "demon of anything" is an abducation of personal responsibility for sin. Believers in G-d CAN NOT be possessed by an evil spirit. That is ridiculous!!! Can a temple of G-d also house a demon????
Can something G-d has made holy be an instrument for evil???If a person does have a demon this person is NOT an observer of TRUTH.

NOt that I believe in entities called "demons" in the christian sense of "demons". Kabbalah teaches that we create our own demons and empower them by transgressing Torah. The only way to "excorcize" these demons is to repent and STOP SINNING....then they just ...LEAVE>

Shalom,

BETZER

[Straylight]

Anyone else read it? Liked it?...Hated it?...Burned it in ritual fashion?

I've read through some of his books, and have listened to him quite a bit on radio.....That being said, I'd put Fr. Malachi Martin under the same classification that I'd put "Fox Mulder" in. He has a lot of strange ideas (outside demonic possesion tales, mind you) that puts him in the camp of conspiracy theorists. He was even a touchy (and sometimes offensive) personality among other Catholics.

Anyways....I don't care for exorcism stories that supposedly take days, weeks, months, or even years to complete. If believers can't do it within a matter of seconds, and put to fear of the Son of God in a demon's mind at a moment's notice, then I do not want to hear about it.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

just exactly where do we find a "demon of pride, or lust"...in the scriptures.
Most of the demons in the NT had specific personal names that identified them....ie "legion" or "bellzebub" etc.

And the excuse of a "demon of anything" is an abducation of personal responsibility for sin. Believers in G-d CAN NOT be possessed by an evil spirit. That is ridiculous!!! Can a temple of G-d also house a demon????
Can something G-d has made holy be an instrument for evil???If a person does have a demon this person is NOT an observer of TRUTH.

NOt that I believe in entities called "demons" in the christian sense of "demons". Kabbalah teaches that we create our own demons and empower them by transgressing Torah. The only way to "excorcize" these demons is to repent and STOP SINNING....then they just ...LEAVE>

Shalom,

BETZER


As far as you pointing out bellzebub as a demon ... yes that is a ranking of a demon. Some demons have names called " Satan" which identifies an upper crust demon. Like a general and so on.

The NT is a loose outline [in regards to demons and deliverance aka exorcism] It does not give you exact how-tos and all the demons names. The only exact how-to is there is power in His name and you should know it and Him personally. Just because it named legion and other demons ie deaf and dumb... doesnt mean there are only those demons. If there were only those demons we would only have problems with deaf and dumb people and people harrassed by bellzebub and legion. Do you think that the only ministers of God are mentioned in the bible? When you study exorcism as a career you learn that Jesus in His teachings and Paul and so on... to give you and example of certain scenarios but not all. Not all demons react the same. ie some come out with prayer and fasting and others but getting their name rank and function aka legion. Also not legion is a group of demons 3,000 -6,000 in number. and yes that is historically acurate.

As far as your note on the temple of God. We consist of a three part person which is in 1 thess. Body soul and spirit. In the old testiment... the tabernacle consisted of the Outer courts, Inner courts, and the Holy of Holies. Now, God is saying we are the temple of God. We are that temple of three parts. People and flith can go into the outer temple[body], the inner courts are those who are asked in [soul] and the holy of holies is a place for God [spirit] and the offical priest. You can have filth in the outer temple where trading and getting the animals to sacrific reside. If you ask filth to join your inner temple [your soul] you can. But if you ask God/ Jesus[that perminent priest of the malchizaldec[sp?] priesthood] into that Holy of Holies he stays there and owns that temple... Yet filth can get into the other two parts.

Also, God says that we must " renew our minds" get our "daily bread" and keep working on our sinful nature to put it into submission [ie bridal your tongue]. That means that we are still working on our body and soul [part where emotions, desires and needs reside]. If we must keep working on it, it means it is not perfect yet. And if it is not perfected yet... than things that arent perfect can leak in. Things like the demonic. How do you think the legion go into the gadereen? And how did the boy become mute? Compromise in our lives with what we know we should or should not be doing. By either us or for the boy, his parents.

Also, why would we need to " put on the armor of God" every day if we werent going to be coming up against something?

Likewise, if you think you stop sinning with get rid of all of them... it doesnt work like that or Jesus wouldnt have come " to set the captives free." They would have set themselves free. With some demons you can " resist the devil and he shall flee" but for those you have given into your whole life or for a long time... why would they want to just up and leave their comfy couch you made for them just because you stopped talking to them?

Thats fine if you think you create your own demons... when you finally deside that your demons are too much... you will be coming to me to help you get rid of them.

And yet again i will say. Doesnt matter to me who thinks demons are only a NT theology, or dont believe in them, or we come up with our own. Because in the end, i will be the one dealing with them when you need them to stop bothering you.

~Natsumi Lam~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

If believers can't do it within a matter of seconds, and put to fear of the Son of God in a demon's mind at a moment's notice,


i think they already have an active and healthy fear of Jesus... hah i dont have to tell them. They already know.


:)

~Natsumi Lam~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

also somthing to note...


some have said we create our own demons and fight against ourselves... and get rid of demons but not sinning... here is something to note that i came across today.

2 Cor. 10: 3,4
[NKJV]

" For though we walk in the flesh, WE DO NOT WAR AGAINST THE FLESH. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds"


We are waring against more than just ourselves.

~NL~

[Keumkang]

as far as the other book... do you know the name, i will try to look up by author but it is hard? :blush: Whoops, that would've been helpful. It's called Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin.

[~Natsumi Lam~]

:blush: Whoops, that would've been helpful. It's called Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin.


cool ill look it up today

:)

~NL~

[Bernie]

NL wrote,
"The spirit for those who are 'saved' are God's. The body
can still be healed, renewed, and worked on. The soul [our emotional,
thought process, and who we are] "needs to be renewed daily". Those
Soul and Body are able to have filth."
This notion of the spirit free of falsity [evil] while soul [assuming you're referring by this to mind or intellect] and body contain demonic activity is popular today, but lacks epistemological coherency. I see no reason to assume that evil does not continue along the same path it began in Adam, as seen in Genesis in the story of the fall--from spirit to mind to body (material world). Jesus affirms this procedural course in Mat 15:18-20.

That demons dwell in our flesh, I believe. That they can have any influence on or communion with the mind whose primary animating principle (spirit) is pure and true, which is the logical state of regeration or being 'born again', violates the established causative path of the presence of evil in intellectual operation and behavior.

If this is true, as I believe it is, then how might not recognizing this affect the exorcist in the performance of his/her duty? Or does playing to the proper sequence of evil's perpetration make no difference in dealing with demonic activity?

[betzerg]

Thats fine if you think you create your own demons... when you finally deside that your demons are too much... you will be coming to me to help you get rid of them.

And yet again i will say. Doesnt matter to me who thinks demons are only a NT theology, or dont believe in them, or we come up with our own. Because in the end, i will be the one dealing with them when you need them to stop bothering you.

~Natsumi Lam~

That's a bit arrogant, don't you think Natsumi. I guess you've forgotten the verse in James 4:7 - "draw nigh to G-d, resist the devil and he will flee from you".

oh...maybe the new translation is "draw nigh to Natsumi Lam"....

all this hocus pocus dualistic gnostic hog wash is corrupting the Truth of G-d and putting ignorant and simple people in horrible positions. Comparing the temple to the human anatomy is ridiculous. Slaughtering cattle and sheep is not "evil"...you're entire analogy is a bunch of baloney.

What fellowship has darkness with light. You say we can speak the holy name of HaShem in praise and worship and still have our bodies 'possessed by a demon". My gosh! Does G-d have no power...no authority...that He would allow HIS DWELLING PLACE to also house demons...come on...give me a break.

I had a missionary friend who was in africa during the 70's big "demon possession of christians" thing...and he was the pastor of a large community.
The more he "cast out demons" the more "demons" that showed up in his congregation. Repetition of demon exorcism was common. In frustration he fell on his knees asking G-d what the answer to this dilema would be.

He describes it as a "flash of insight"...from G-d...that he was giving power to demons by talking about them and to them and at them. It was creating a place of fear and hysteria that was nothing but evil itself. He resolved to only speak of the goodness of G-d and the Truth of scripture and to suggest that any believe who "had a demon" was to stay at home fasting and praying and reading scripture. All the commotion ceased..in fact..the blessing of G-d fell on his congregation...and all the mass hysteria vanished.

I do not say that demon possession does not exist. in fact, first century judaism had many teachers and rabbi's who performed exorcisms....it wasn't just JESUS.

You promote hysteria and supersition...both the antitheses of Faith and Peace....so give it up.

Shalom,

BETZER

[~Natsumi Lam~]

That's a bit arrogant, don't you think Natsumi. I guess you've forgotten the verse in James 4:7 - "draw nigh to G-d, resist the devil and he will flee from you".

oh...maybe the new translation is "draw nigh to Natsumi Lam"....

all this hocus pocus dualistic gnostic hog wash is corrupting the Truth of G-d and putting ignorant and simple people in horrible positions. Comparing the temple to the human anatomy is ridiculous. Slaughtering cattle and sheep is not "evil"...you're entire analogy is a bunch of baloney.

What fellowship has darkness with light. You say we can speak the holy name of HaShem in praise and worship and still have our bodies 'possessed by a demon". My gosh! Does G-d have no power...no authority...that He would allow HIS DWELLING PLACE to also house demons...come on...give me a break.

I had a missionary friend who was in africa during the 70's big "demon possession of christians" thing...and he was the pastor of a large community.
The more he "cast out demons" the more "demons" that showed up in his congregation. Repetition of demon exorcism was common. In frustration he fell on his knees asking G-d what the answer to this dilema would be.

He describes it as a "flash of insight"...from G-d...that he was giving power to demons by talking about them and to them and at them. It was creating a place of fear and hysteria that was nothing but evil itself. He resolved to only speak of the goodness of G-d and the Truth of scripture and to suggest that any believe who "had a demon" was to stay at home fasting and praying and reading scripture. All the commotion ceased..in fact..the blessing of G-d fell on his congregation...and all the mass hysteria vanished.

I do not say that demon possession does not exist. in fact, first century judaism had many teachers and rabbi's who performed exorcisms....it wasn't just JESUS.

You promote hysteria and supersition...both the antitheses of Faith and Peace....so give it up.

Shalom,

BETZER


i was joking... dont get offended so easily.

as far as the resist the devil and he shall flee. Once again... consider Jesus and Paul's ministry in dealing with the demonic. And secondly, why would there need to be authority in Jesus and his name.... if you already possess all teh power in your mind. You could even say you could shed all cancer and other sicknesses by resisting it. Demonic is just like a physical cancer. Like i said before... it really doesnt matter to me if you think you can just shed unwanted demons ["that you created yourself"] or even use the verse " resist the devil and he shall flee". Why didnt the demons leave the Gadareen [sp] when he wanted them to leave. Why did it even take jesus multiple times to get rid of legion and he is the " Name above all names" " every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Lord". Also remember

2 Cor 10: 3,4
" For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh."
" For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds... " We dont fight against our own demons... or create them... that would make them carnal.

Secondly, you really need to study the original Greek of the NT. There are two temple's in the greek all through the NT. Hieron [strong's number 2411] and Naos [3485] . Hieron is the temple comprised of the Holy of Holies, Outer temple and the Inner temple. Naos is only the Holy of Holies.. a place where only God resides and those priests that make the one year atoninment. Which is your spirit.

Naos is used in

1 Cor 3:16
" Do you not know that you are the TEMPLE [naos] of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

1 Cor 3:17
" If anyone defiles the TEMPLE [naos] of God, God will destroy him. For the temple[naos] of God is holy, which temple [naos] you are."

2 Cor 6:16
"and what agreement has the TEMPLE [naos] of God with idols? For you are the temple [naos] of the living God..."

thus:
that point has been proven biblically... not by Natsumi's translation.


As far as speaking "holy name of HaShem "
we are no longer bound by the law... we are set free. We can say what we want... you can do everything but not everything is edifing.... once again biblical.... not the Natsumi translation.


As far as the temple having three parts and man having three parts look up each place you see Hieron [strong's number 2411] ... many verses refer to us as the three part temple i even gave you the reference number.... once again proven biblically... not by the Crystal translation.


And as far as your friend's pastor and the asking God and more demons showing up. You can get rid of all the demons you want out of the church but each person has to be responcible for not compromising because they will bring back " 7 more evil ones then themselves[demons]... and the man will be worse off than he was in the beginning". If someone plans to lead a congregation in deliverance... he must be responsible to prepare them for the aftermath. As far as the light " Satan can come as an angel of light" ... did he check with 2 or three others to see the truth. " Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses everything is established". So unless he went through the process biblically he can still fall to the weakness of the mind. Even a missionary. Secondly, why would God go against his own words.... " we are to go to the elders and ask for healing and prayer". Also biblical. If we were to depend on our own fortitude than our strength would be our strength..
" when we are weak He is strong". also biblical. And the mass hystaria.... could vary well be based on " watching the seen" and not " looking to the unseen". Almost everyone i know would freak out if they see people and things acting up everytime they are at church. Just remember demons dont care about messing with you unless you are a threat. If a congrigation is going against God and a biblical outline.. why would they waist their time with them. So unless the pastor went through the correct biblical path he is in danger of demonic meadiling....

So I have proven every point biblically and not according to the ... natsumi translation.And dont worry about others being hystarical or having issues with faith ... because they will go back to God those in his hands are never to far from him to pick them up.

And if people are hystarical because of the biblical backing to every point. God is to worry about them. Not me, it is the bible that holds them.


PS. i will talk about dark and light when i get back
~NL~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Ok...

as far as the dark and light comment. Here is the best way to put it... and how i would put it.

Written by bob larson...

We understand from 1 Thessalonians that a person has three distinct
parts and this helps us understand this question of co-existence. But I want to focus for now on the first statement; that dark and light cannot co-exist.

The assertion that darkness and light cannot co-exist, as biblical as it sounds is not found in the bible.

Let me say that again – the common assertion that dark and light cannot co-exist is nowhere in the bible. The closest thing is 1 John 1:5 where is says “God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.” But that is
talking about God.

The passage continues:
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Again this does not say we cannot walk in darkness, just that we should not. The fact that John warns us not to walk in darkness indicates a possibility for a Christian to walk in darkness.

In fact, Jesus tells us that dark and light can co-exist, and emphasizes that we must see to it that we deal with the dark parts in our light.

In Luke 11:34 Jesus says:
The Lamp of the Body Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within you is not
darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the light of a lamp shines on you."

The phrase “See to it” indicates that there is an effort required on our part to rid ourselves of darkness. We need to see to it. The next phrase “if your whole body is full of light and no part of it is dark” clearly demonstrates that it is possible to have a part of our body that is dark. The phrase “completely lighted” shows it is also possible to be not completely lighted.

In conclusion, the key statement that dark and light cannot co-exist in the same body cannot be found anywhere in the bible. Passages relating to this say that they should not co-exist.
------------
Also... as far as jewish leaders casting out demons... i understand your point of this. But even witch doctors can cast out demons[falsely]. I never said other people cant get them out. i Just said that person who has been freed or look to be freed better have something of Jesus in them or they are going to have a " clean house that has 7 times worse the defilement after." - Matt 12: 43-45 - Also remember "He who is not with me is against me", he who is not with Jesus is against him.

"Rememember Deliverance demonstrates God’s power over the supernatural. Together they show the truth and power of the preaching that has occurred. If Christians can’t have demons then that implies we are to drive out demons from non-believers, which is absurd in the context of preaching and physical healings. How would we in the name and power of Jesus drive out a demon from someone who rejects the name and power of Jesus? Surely then, the healing and deliverance are there to build the faith of the person who believes the good news rather than rejects it. In fact this threefold mission of preaching, healing and deliverance was the central mission of Christ’s
Ministry on earth. As he stated in Luke 4:18."



~NL~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Or does playing to the proper sequence of evil's perpetration make no difference in dealing with demonic activity?

we are here to set the captives free... not keep them free.

~NL~

[betzerg]

we are here to set the captives free... not keep them free.

~NL~

Natsumi....how ridiculous is this statement? If we teach men the paths of righteousness we set them free for eternity. When we try "quick fixes" like exorcisms to get rid of ung-dly and unholy behavior and put the responsibiltliy for our actions on "something other" than our SELF...we violate the purpose of the scriptures themselves....TO TEACH MEN THAT G-D IS HOLY AND THUS WE ARE TO BE HOLY, SET APART AND PLEASING TO HIM.

This entire charismatic approach to a lack of personal integrity and convinction is appalling and anti-torah. Anti-truth. The truth being that G-d does not allow demons to take away the free will of men who TRUST IN HIM.
The truth being that we are to holy...entirely holy...

The ignorant idea that the soul body and spirit can operate independently in our humanity is also ridiculous. So what happens to a body without a soul.
What happens to a spirit without a body....we are no longer HUMAN. For a demon to HAVE our body...but the Holy Spirit to have our spirit...is ridiculous.

All demons and HaSATAN himself is ALWAYS subject to the laws of G-d and can only do what G-d allows them to do. G-d is still and always will be the RULER of the UNIVERSE and Satan only a liar who distorts TRUTH to create havoc and lawlessness on the earth. Please stop helping him.

Shalom,

BETZER

[~Natsumi Lam~]

Natsumi....how ridiculous is this statement? If we teach men the paths of righteousness we set them free for eternity. When we try "quick fixes" like exorcisms to get rid of ung-dly and unholy behavior and put the responsibiltliy for our actions on "something other" than our SELF...we violate the purpose of the scriptures themselves....TO TEACH MEN THAT G-D IS HOLY AND THUS WE ARE TO BE HOLY, SET APART AND PLEASING TO HIM.

This entire charismatic approach to a lack of personal integrity and convinction is appalling and anti-torah. Anti-truth. The truth being that G-d does not allow demons to take away the free will of men who TRUST IN HIM.
The truth being that we are to holy...entirely holy...

The ignorant idea that the soul body and spirit can operate independently in our humanity is also ridiculous. So what happens to a body without a soul.
What happens to a spirit without a body....we are no longer HUMAN. For a demon to HAVE our body...but the Holy Spirit to have our spirit...is ridiculous.

All demons and HaSATAN himself is ALWAYS subject to the laws of G-d and can only do what G-d allows them to do. G-d is still and always will be the RULER of the UNIVERSE and Satan only a liar who distorts TRUTH to create havoc and lawlessness on the earth. Please stop helping him.

Shalom,

BETZER

--> I will first say ... i will except all that is above as hearsay until you can show biblical backing. You have been talking smack without Truth backing you up. You got to have the whole Word align with you. Not what you think or just pulling a verse out to fit what you want.
So unless you show the Truth as your backing. Your words are hearsay. Remember John 8:31-32 " The Truth shall set you free", not your own mind.

you say it exorcism take away from our own responsibilities... for our freedom or our accounting for our actions. What would we need Jesus for if we can deliver ourselves from bondage. I am not talking about salvation. So his whole deliverance part of His mission was wasted time and pointless and pushing our lack of self restraint?

1. we are sent to TO TEACH MEN THAT G-D IS HOLY AND THUS WE ARE TO BE HOLY, SET APART AND PLEASING TO HIM. [Your words]

[ not biblical] where is the rest to the story... look at the great
commission... where is to baptize, cast out devils, heal, make
disciples... you cant do that by sitting at home and praying.
" Faith without works is dead" Jesus core was
healing, deliverance and salvation, provision. What Jesus are you
talking about?WHat bible are you talking about you cant take
parts of God and leave out others.
Matthew 5:17
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the
prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."




2. The truth being that G-d does not allow demons to take away the free
will of men who TRUST IN HIM. The truth being that we are to
holy...entirely holy...[Your words]

[true they can not take away our freedom ... we can give it up]
[Yet again prove in biblically.. you will need the original greek to
justify the intent and original meaning according to how is was
wrote] Prove where it says WE are entirly holy. If the temple
[hieron] has had sin in the outer courts[our body]...

Luke 11:34 Jesus says:
"Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good,
your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your
body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within
you is not darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light,
and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the
light of a lamp shines on you."

The phrase “See to it” indicates that there is an effort required on our part to rid ourselves of darkness. We need to see to it. The next phrase “if your whole body is full of light and no part of it is dark” clearly demonstrates that it is possible to have a part of our body that is dark. The phrase “completely lighted” shows it is also possible to be not completely lighted.

3.The ignorant idea that the soul body and spirit can operate independently in our humanity is also ridiculous. So what happens to a body without a soul. What happens to a spirit without a body....we are no longer HUMAN. For a demon to HAVE our body...but the Holy Spirit to have our spirit...is ridiculous.[Your words]

[Prove it Biblically]
[Never said they were independent, they are unique parts. You can feel
emotionally [soul] but not make your body move, doesnt mean they are
alone]
[ Prove that we are not three parts... prove that while the body can be
corrupt our spirit cant remain pure]
What your missing... we are three in one. Just like the temple we are
compared to. Jesus threw the money changers and the traders out of the
outer courts. Our body. Yet the Holy of Holies remained untouched.
You might need the greek word for temple... hieron[2411]. Remember
there are two. Naos only refers to the holy of Holies. Where as Hieron is
the three part temple.

remember 1 Thessalonians 5:23
" we see we have a body, soul and spirit:
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ." MAY they be kept blameless... they need work. They are not perfect yet... if they are not perfect yet they can have imperfections. If they can have imperfections... then they can have areas that are not godly. And if they can have areas that are not godly then the ungodly can chill there. If the ungodly can chill there and we compromise... we can let in demonic.



4.All demons and HaSATAN himself is ALWAYS subject to the laws of G-d and
can only do what G-d allows them to do. G-d is still and always will be the
RULER of the UNIVERSE and Satan only a liar who distorts TRUTH to create
havoc and lawlessness on the earth. Please stop helping him.[Your words]

Yes demons are subject to the law. And yes they are subject to God's
order. What you are not recognizing is this. We are given free will, but we
are subject to the earth laws... ie gravity. Satan has boundries also... but
he can operate within those boundries. Satan takes up your freedoms if
you give them to him [when you compromise], that is within the law. But
he can not push them on you. He can not go past the law. He operates in
your free will. If i distort the Truth , Jesus must be the ultimate liar.


SO,

--> we are here to set them free ... not keep them free === meaning we are here to bring them salvation, healing and deliverance. We are not hear to keep them walking next to God [yes i believe once saved always saved.]. We are not here to keep them in health. And we are not here to keep them from demonic influence. We are here to tell them the good news, heal them, deliver them. We are here to prepare them for the woes of the future. Not prevent the woes of life from coming.

We are here to set the captives free but we can not keep them free.... it is their responsiblity to keep them in line with God, to keep them healthy and to stay away from compromise to Satan can not get a foothold. Yes we are here to bring the good news of salvation which is eternal. But that is not what i was refering to.
Jesus came here "to set the captives free"... it is their choice to choose freedom. Jesus will not force it on you. And if he is here to set the captives free... and that is every part of the person. And He is our model for perfection and who we should be like... then we are to do what He did. Act as he did. He cast out demons... so must I.

--> Exorcism is not to get rid of ungodly behavior or for one who is too lazy to fix their choices on their own. It is to those who have chosen to change their life and still have lingering weights on their legs. If you research Jesus and Paul's ministry according to healing you will see that physical healing and spiritual renewal[exorcism aka Deliverance] go hand in hand.
An example is the Greek word in the NT
Therapeuo [Strong's Number 2323] which means to heal, cure, worship restore to health both physically and spiritually.

Examples:
Matt 4:24
" 24And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed[Therapeuo] them."

Matt 8:16
" 16When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed [Therapeuo] all that were sick:"

Mar 3:14,15
" 14And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,15And to have power to heal[Therapeuo] sicknesses, and to cast out devils:"

Luke 6:18
"18And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed."

Luke 7:21
" 21And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight."

and so on.....

----> We are ordered
Mark 16: 15-18

"15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

We are told to follow jesus as that he is our example and secondly, we are told to heal, deliver, and spread the good news. You cant just pick physical healing and telling people about jesus and leave out deliverance aka exorcism. You would not be following Jesus's orders to the fullest. If Jesus sat at home praying, going to the temple and discussing with the scribes about the word He would not have fullfilled the Jesus of the Bible. IF we are to follow Jesus as our example... we are to follow him in full not in part.

You can not pick and choose "TO TEACH MEN THAT G-D IS HOLY AND THUS WE ARE TO BE HOLY, SET APART AND PLEASING TO HIM.[your words]". Because that is only one part of our mission.... you cant just be "resolved to only speak of the goodness of G-d and the Truth of scripture and to suggest that any believe who "had a demon" was to stay at home fasting and praying and reading scripture. [your words] ". THat is completely unbiblical... each case of healing and freedom from demonic bondage in the Bible came from faith.... " You can not please God without faith" and " Faith without works is dead". You must step out in faith, " Go before the elders, be anointed and prayed for". You must come and choose to be free. You must come with faith.. each case you see where it talks in detail of a person healed physically or from the demonic... each had to show faith. Examples:
Matt 8:5-13; Matt 9:1,2; Mat 9: 27-31 and so on. Once again i say... why would the demon leave you if you have made him a nice place to stay and he has been chillin there for a loooong time. IE Mary Magdelen

Mark 16:9
"Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."

That was a long time adulturous life. Jesus got them out. She had to want to be free, step out in faith and for these seven demons ... she needed some help to be free. Doesnt mean these were the only ones. Some you can change your ways and they dont want to stay. But those who have LAWFUL rights to still be chillin in your house... got to go by harsher means.

---> If you question the whole charasmatic's personal integrety .. are you not being a judge and dont you know He is only the judge and when you choose to judge you will be judges by Him in like mannor.Matthew 7:2
[I]"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Similarly, just because you BELIEVE something is what it is doesnt mean it is what you say. Remember we are to look to 2 Cor 4:18 "18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Every post you have given is lacking any backing other than your words.
You say that i am helping the demonic.
Matthew 12:25
"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:". The demonic can not stand if i am of the demonic and breaking up the demonic. That is my job as an exorcist, break down the demonic.

If providing biblical truth to each point, to " signs shall follow them that believe; [B]In my name shall they cast out devils", to "setting captives free".... if all this is helping the demonic.... wow Jesus really did a great job in promoting and pushing the demonic movement.

Like i said, your and my words mean squat if we dont have the Truth backing us because " The Truth shall set you free".

~Natsumi Lam~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

PS: i am still looking at Hostage to the Devil by Malachi Martin reviews and details. I might go get it to see it for myself. Also i am trying to find a Rituale Romanum book.

~NL~

[~Natsumi Lam~]

ok i have been reading some of this book.

Some is a bit off... for example Page 10 has some misconceptions.

#1 " On him [the exorcist] depend's everything"

--> it doesnt depend on him. God can do everything without him, God just uses man as his arms and mouth and so on. We need to place that burden on God. God is the guy with the timing, without him no demon will leave.

#2 " But in each exorcism he risks literally everything he values". Remember demons can only go as far as 1. God says and 2. As far as we let them. We are commanded to " set the captive's free" and "to cast out devils". If it is God's timing. We are in his will and only what God allows for the growth in us will affect us. We cant die unless God allows it.

#3 "Once engaged, the exorcism can not be called off"

Of course it can be called off, sometimes man cant war all day without food or a time to regenerate spiritually.And it is really hard on the one getting exorcised. Been there done that, it sucks and is very very hard at time. Being an exorcist is hard sometimes and takes all your physical and spiritual strength to hold people down or keep on praying when you are wore out. We are man we do have limits. Sometimes we need to go off and pray for direction. Some demons take repeated times to leave. Sometimes you need to find their foothold. And the Holy Spirit is your guiding post. Sometimes you got to set yourself to the unseen rather than the seen to get what is going on and many times you have to pray to see the unseen. Even so, sometimes when an exorcist feels they should not be doing the exorcism right their because of spiritual decernment... they have to stop it to stay in God's will.

#4 " Something dies in him [exorcist]"

That is not true. We are sent to do this job on God's orders. "Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world". We are not doing this alone, the Holy Spirit is our guide. In fact, everytime i have been part of an exorcism i have gained a greater Joy in the freedom in Jesus and what He is and who He is and WHO I AM IN HIM :). Not a burden or a death!

So some of it is very off... but i will read on.

Basically all of page 10 is very much off.


~NL~

[ajcondon]

wow, well I read all the previous replies. I think that some many people are uneducated about demons and the like either due to fear or pride. Let me explain fear because you wouldnt even want to confront a spiritual power because you dread being show either how weak you are spiritualy or that you yourself arent in charge. Pride on the other hand is due to this thinking that it would never touch me, or control me because I would know. You see demons dont just manifest systoms of mental breakdowns but they use our fear, insecurities, and any other weakness to gain control over our life.

It is most important to remember that through Jesus and Jesus alone can we be conquerors. The bible says that stronger is he who is in us than he who is in the world......do you have him in you or are you the lone ranger facing an army- a battle which you will never win alone.....but with God all things are possible!

[~Natsumi Lam~]

wow, well I read all the previous replies. I think that some many people are uneducated about demons and the like either due to fear or pride. Let me explain fear because you wouldnt even want to confront a spiritual power because you dread being show either how weak you are spiritualy or that you yourself arent in charge. Pride on the other hand is due to this thinking that it would never touch me, or control me because I would know. You see demons dont just manifest systoms of mental breakdowns but they use our fear, insecurities, and any other weakness to gain control over our life.

It is most important to remember that through Jesus and Jesus alone can we be conquerors. The bible says that stronger is he who is in us than he who is in the world......do you have him in you or are you the lone ranger facing an army- a battle which you will never win alone.....but with God all things are possible!

i agree :)

~NL~