Just Curious

[okcitykid]

When I was a teenager I used to get the Watch Tower all the time. I have no idea who was sending it to me, but I used to read them cover to cover and found the magazine facinating. They would always have news bites that you wouldn't find anywhere else. Items that were often uplifting not depressing or about peace or environmental protection and country living. They would always end with a hopeful message about the Kingdom Come but would give no details. I know that you believe That Jesus already came, so what is this Kingdom Come.

Can you explain? I may not agree but I promise not to criticize - just curious.

[NonTrinitarian]

When I was a teenager I used to get the Watch Tower all the time. I have no idea who was sending it to me, but I used to read them cover to cover and found the magazine facinating. They would always have news bites that you wouldn't find anywhere else. Items that were often uplifting not depressing or about peace or environmental protection and country living. They would always end with a hopeful message about the Kingdom Come but would give no details. I know that you believe That Jesus already came, so what is this Kingdom Come.

Can you explain? I may not agree but I promise not to criticize - just curious.

God's Kingdom has not yet come. When God's Kingdom comes, his will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:9,10) This is when all the blessing you have read in the WT will come about. Until then Satan is the ruler of this world, or as Paul calls him, "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4). That's why this world is so bad.

Come Lord Jesus.

[Krusader]

When I was a teenager I used to get the Watch Tower all the time. I have no idea who was sending it to me, but I used to read them cover to cover and found the magazine facinating. They would always have news bites that you wouldn't find anywhere else. Items that were often uplifting not depressing or about peace or environmental protection and country living. They would always end with a hopeful message about the Kingdom Come but would give no details. I know that you believe That Jesus already came, so what is this Kingdom Come.

Can you explain? I may not agree but I promise not to criticize - just curious.

And why shouldn't you criticize heresy? According to the Watchtower, Jesus Christ is the Archangel Michael. According to the Watchtower, Jesus was only speaking to 144,000 human beings when He said, "you must be born-again." According to the Watchtower, unless you are among the 144,000 spirit-anointed elite, you do not have Jesus as your Mediator. If you are a part of the Great Crowd (those who will never go to heaven but will always be on earth), your eternal destiny is dependent on how you treat the 144,000.

Regarding Christ's Mediatorship ending when the 144,000 class is complete, see:

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men , a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all... Evidently the new covenant is nearing the end of its operation for the purpose of producing 144,000 spiritual Israelites... When the last of these approved spiritual Israelites cease to be 'men' because of earthly death and a resurrection to share in the heavenly kingdom, then the mediatorship of Jesus Christ will cease also." - The Watchtower, 15 November 1979, pp.26-27

To prove that the destiny of the Great Crowd depends on how they serve the 144,000 elite, see:

Your attitude towards the wheatlike anointed 'brothers' of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into 'everlasting cutting-off' or receive 'everlasting life'." - The Watchtower, 1 August 1981, p.26.

These are the kind of things, my young friend from Oklahoma, that you need to criticize.....expose the wicked works of darkness (false doctrines) we are told in the New Testament (Eph. 5:11). Don't be afraid to do so.

PS: Those cutsey articles you mention are more in keeping with what you read in AWAKE, rather than the boring stuff you get in the WATCHTOWER. The Watchtower Kingdom is a Kingdom of Darkness - and is not the Kingdom which Our Lord told us to pray for.

[NonTrinitarian]

To prove that the destiny of the Great Crowd depends on how they serve the 144,000 elite, see:

Your attitude towards the wheatlike anointed 'brothers' of Christ and the treatment you accord them will be the determining factor as to whether you go into 'everlasting cutting-off' or receive 'everlasting life'." - The Watchtower, 1 August 1981, p.26.

These are the kind of things, my young friend from Oklahoma, that you need to criticize.....expose the wicked works of darkness (false doctrines) we are told in the New Testament (Eph. 5:11). Don't be afraid to do so.

OKCitykid,

If you will read other dialogues between Crusader and myself, you will see she doesn't know much about JW's. I've caught her (I better not say lying or the moderators will get me), spreading false information about JW's. She, like many others, has a hard time recognizing two destinies for righteous mankind. The 144,000 who will rule as kings over the earth and the other sheep that will be on the earth. (2 Peter 3:13). And she's right, we do teach that we have to be kind, but not just to the 144,000, it's all of God's people. See Matthew 25:31-46 Apparently Crusader is not familiar with this point.

You see, Crusader has a hard time reading and comprehending things correctly. She quite often forms an opinion based off her misreading. A good example of that is her calling you her "young friend from Oklahoma."

She read your post an immediately assumed you were young when it's quite possible you are older than her. You could be young but you said WHEN you were a teenager which suggest you are now at least in your 20's and possibly in your 80s. But Crusader saw the word "teenager" and possibly "kid" in your name and instantly drew her own conclusions.

I don't have a problem with people misreading things, but when they spew hatred like she does, along with lies, uh, I mean incorrect or unsubtantiated information, I have a hard time being nice about it.

[Krusader]

OKCitykid,

If you will read other dialogues between Crusader and myself, you will see she doesn't know much about JW's. I've caught her (I better not say lying or the moderators will get me), spreading false information about JW's. She, like many others, has a hard time recognizing two destinies for righteous mankind. The 144,000 who will rule as kings over the earth and the other sheep that will be on the earth. (2 Peter 3:13). And she's right, we do teach that we have to be kind, but not just to the 144,000, it's all of God's people. See Matthew 25:31-46 Apparently Crusader is not familiar with this point.

You see, Crusader has a hard time reading and comprehending things correctly. She quite often forms an opinion based off her misreading. A good example of that is her calling you her "young friend from Oklahoma."

She read your post an immediately assumed you were young when it's quite possible you are older than her. You could be young but you said WHEN you were a teenager which suggest you are now at least in your 20's and possibly in your 80s. But Crusader saw the word "teenager" and possibly "kid" in your name and instantly drew her own conclusions.

I don't have a problem with people misreading things, but when they spew hatred like she does, along with lies, uh, I mean incorrect or unsubtantiated information, I have a hard time being nice about it.

No, I checked out the kid's age on the personal profile before calling him "my young friend." Trust me, he's still "my young friend."

I think I probably know more about the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society than you, my young friend (and that is obvious, because if you understood their history, you wouldn't be a member). I've authored many published articles on this group, and have taught about their history and doctrine in many Christian Churches (and not only evangelical ones). You can gripe all you want, but your gripes don't prove me wrong. Concentrate on answering my questions, young person, and avoid character attacks. Ad homs are only used when you run out of legitimate answers.

For instance, how about telling OKCityKid why you believe that the Archangel Michael is Jesus. Or, maybe we could have a little chat about Beth Sarim and 1925 - up to it?

And while we're at it, let's review this little article from March 15, 1930, in the San Diego Sun. Here a reporter interviews Judge Rutherford, WT President, regarding the mansion he had had built for the Old Testament Princes who were supposed to return to life circa 1925. The mansion was named Beth Sarim:

"But how will you identify King David or any of the other representatives from God?' Rutherford was asked. 'I thought all that out before I wrote the deed,' the judge replied with a twinkle in his gray eyes. 'I realized the possibility of some old codger turning up bright and early some morning and declaring he was David. The men whom I have designated to test the identity of these men are officers of my societies and have consecrated themselves to the Lord, they will be divinely authorized to know impostors from the real princes.'" Time Magazine of Mar 31, 1930 wrote: "Judge Joseph Frederick Rutherford 60, lives in a ten room Spanish mansion, No 4440 Braeburn Rd, San Diego, Calif. Last week he deeded No 4440 Braeburn Road, and adjacent two car garage and a pair of automobiles to King David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, Samuel and sundry other mighties of ancient Palestine. Positive is he that they are shortly to reappear on earth, Said he: 'I have purposely landscaped the place with palm and olive trees so that these princes of the universe will feel at home ..". The San Diego Sun of Jan 9 1931 wrote: "A gaunt unshaven tramp has been the lone claimant for the $75,000 Southern Californian mansion of David, king of Israel, since it was deeded to the Biblical character a year ago. This was revealed today by Judge James Rutherford, temporary owner of the luxuriantly furnished Spanish type mansion at 440 Braeburn Rd in the exclusive Kensington Heights district. In one of the oddest deeds ever recorded, Rutherford, president of the International Bible Students Association and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, has placed in trust the magnificent estate for ancient kings and prophets of Israel The slayer of Goliath and his companions may occupy the 10 room modern home with it's landscaped gardens and patio as soon as their credentials are approved by Rutherford and officials of his societies, divinely authorised to recognise them. One morning as I was going from the house to the garage, a queer looking creature approached me, tipped his dirty hat and cried 'Howdy Judge, I'm David' 'Go and tell that to the winds', I told him and he left without arguing the matter. I could see at a glance that he was not David. He didn't look like I knew David would look.' Asked how he expected David and his distinguished brethren to look, Rutherford, without hesitation, opened his huge Bible and pointed to a verse which said that the Princes of the Universe would be risen from the dead 'as perfect men'. 'I interpret that to mean', the tall dignified Judge declared, 'that David, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, Joseph and Samuel will be sent here to wrench the world from Satan's grasp, clothed in modern garb as we are, and able, with little effort, to speak our tongue.' Rutherford pictured the arrival of the biblical delegation perhaps in frock coats, high hats, canes and spats. At Beth Sarim (House of Princes) as Rutherford has named his mansion, David will find the most modern appliances that science has devised. When the distinguished guests walk up the circular stairway to the second floor, they will find a large office with red leather chairs and shiny flat topped desk with inverted lighting. Even French telephones await the touch of the princes. Opening a wide door, the native sons of Palestine will behold a large bathroom, resplendent in shiny black tile with needle shower and an amply filled medicine chest. What a thrill giant shouldered Samson, who wrecked a palace with his bare fists might find in the gold safety razor and strop! Rutherford built the second floor bedroom, which he temporarily occupies, large in order to accommodate several of the expected owners. With wide pane windows that look out on the purple Cuyamacas to the East and California's first mission to the north, the bedroom is almost severe in it's furnishings. The rulers of the universe will have simple tastes, the judge apparently believes, although the austere end tables sported gaily covered fiction magazines. Rutherford has imported some Koniach, Wasser from Cologne, Germany to freshen the princely faces after shaving. A black skull cap hangs over one of the bedposts. The coming of David and his companions will be the greatest news story of the ages, Rutherford predicted. 'I am not a publicity seeker,' Rutherford said with a twinkle in his kindly brown eyes, 'but I feel that the world should know about their arrival. It will be a great news story.' Word of his 'House of king David' has reached into every corner of the world, the judge stated. 'Everywhere I went people asked me about this place,' Rutherford said. 'In Chicago a millionaire manufacturer offered to build another house for David, but I declined the offer. 'Literally thousands have driven here to see this place,' Rutherford continued. 'Many have come to the door and my secretary has shown them about the place.' The patio with it's silver pool and olive and palm trees is gay with flowers. Down toward the canyon, paths have been landscaped to allow David and his friends to walk in meditation. Many of the fruits and trees, native to their Palestine, will greet the rulers when they arrive. In the two car garage next door stands a new, yellow 16 cylinder coupe which will be turned over to the rulers along with all the personal property on the place. 'Everything will be theirs, the house, the land, the furnishings and even the clothes if they need them,' Judge Rutherford said. 'What will I do? Oh, don't worry about me. I'll manage somehow.' the judge smiled. He had another 'Watch Tower' residence on Staten Island and practically an entire floor at Bethel. The seven famous men will not have long to rest at their San Diego estate because they soon will lead the forces of the Lord to vanquish the minions of Satan at the battle of Armageddon, Rutherford believed. 'But they will win out. The Lord will punish the devil and will show that the preachers and the politicians have been giving the people false counsel,' Rutherford said confidently. Rutherford will sail May 9 for Europe where he will speak before conventions in Berlin Paris and London."

[NonTrinitarian]

I've got plenty of threads in this section addressing many topics. A whole thread on why we know Jesus is Michael along with many quotes from Trinitarians who also believe Jesus is Michael. And many other subjects as well. If your articles you've "authored" are anything like your posts here then I'm not too impressed.

OKcitykid, feel free to check the different posts out in this section. You can see for yourself several dialouges between myself and Crusader and decide for yourself who is full of it.

[okcitykid]

I'm not going to jump into your argument. The great thing about America is that we can believe what ever we want to and not be persecuted because of it. Something I'm very proud of. To question is not disobedience, but wisdom. The wise ask why and the foolish think they know.

Anyways - NonTrinitarian. Maybe I didn't ask the question good enough. I know what the Kingdom come is, but I thought it was going to come when Jesus returns, and I understand that your Church believes he has already came. So what is happening right now and how is the kingdom going to come (unless maybe you believe that Jesus took his church and will return later - I believe this, but believe that Jesus came much earlier than your church calculates - if that is what your church believes). Just comparing notes for further insight.

All I know about your church is what I read in the Watch Tower, a magazine I very much enjoyed.

[NonTrinitarian]

Anyways - NonTrinitarian. Maybe I didn't ask the question good enough. I know what the Kingdom come is, but I thought it was going to come when Jesus returns, and I understand that your Church believes he has already came. So what is happening right now and how is the kingdom going to come (unless maybe you believe that Jesus took his church and will return later - I believe this, but believe that Jesus came much earlier than your church calculates - if that is what your church believes). Just comparing notes for further insight.

All I know about your church is what I read in the Watch Tower, a magazine I very much enjoyed.

Matt 6:9,10 has not been fulfilled yet. That prayer is asking for God's Kingdom to come to the Earth so that His will is done here just as in Heaven. However, Jesus has already been enthroned in heaven as king and so in that sense he has come into power.

Revelation 12 reads "Now have come to pass the salavation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ...woe for the earth and sea because the devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."-12:10,12

Note that this was written years after Jesus went to heaven and was a vision of things that would "shortly take place" (Rev 1:1) Thus God's Kingdom would come into power and Jesus would be take his role as king of that kingdom but it would not be immediate blessings for the earth. The devil would still have a short time to "mislead the entire nhabited earth" (Rev 12:9) This is the event we refer to when we say Christ will come into kingdom power.

[okcitykid]

This is the way it had been taught to me. First Jesus takes up the church and then comes again latter to set up his kingdom on earth.

So I guess you believe a little different, first Jesus must be throned king in heaven and throw out the devil to earth, then after a time he will come and set up his kingdom here.

The teaching that Jesus must first be king in heaven is new to me, I've not heard that.

Where does your church stand on Jesus taking up the church?

Somethings we believe because we feel we have to, we don't know we have a choice to believe what we want, or we don't know of another belief.

Somethings we believe because we want to.

Somethings we believe because we are taught to believe and do so without further study.

I want to believe that Jesus is coming. The fear of this world coming to an end is a real fear that I have had since I was 13/14 years old, and now I'm 46. I'm not so much afraid now because I believed the world would come to an end when I graduated from high school, but it didn't, and all this time it hasn't. But now with Global Warming, War, Famine, Poison and Desease, it doesn't look good. Though we are responsible for all of this, I'm afraid that only Jesus can save us now. Even if we did impeach Bush and started driving electric cars, I think we're too late.

Anyways - that's why I'm curious.

[NonTrinitarian]

This is the way it had been taught to me. First Jesus takes up the church and then comes again latter to set up his kingdom on earth.

So I guess you believe a little different, first Jesus must be throned king in heaven and throw out the devil to earth, then after a time he will come and set up his kingdom here.

The teaching that Jesus must first be king in heaven is new to me, I've not heard that.

Where does your church stand on Jesus taking up the church?

Somethings we believe because we feel we have to, we don't know we have a choice to believe what we want, or we don't know of another belief.

Somethings we believe because we want to.

Somethings we believe because we are taught to believe and do so without further study.

I want to believe that Jesus is coming. The fear of this world coming to an end is a real fear that I have had since I was 13/14 years old, and now I'm 46. I'm not so much afraid now because I believed the world would come to an end when I graduated from high school, but it didn't, and all this time it hasn't. But now with Global Warming, War, Famine, Poison and Desease, it doesn't look good. Though we are responsible for all of this, I'm afraid that only Jesus can save us now. Even if we did impeach Bush and started driving electric cars, I think we're too late.

Anyways - that's why I'm curious.
Sorry to get back so late to this post. We believe the church is the 144,000 persons bought from the earth and taken to heaven (see Rev 14:1-3). These ones will rule as kings over the earth (see Rev 5:9,10). Jesus will resurrect to heaven the church, or 144,000. Once that is complete, then the rest begins to happen. The 144,000 to heaven is the first resurrection. After that millions/billions of people will then be resurrected on earth. So I think we believe pretty much the same thing on this. Only we believe the church is not every believer, just the 144,000 who have been adopted as sons of God. When they are finally sealed, then the rest of mankind will also enjoy the freedom as children of God. (see Romans 8:18-21)

You are correct that only Jesus can save us. But the end of the world is nothing to fear. Instead, we welcome it. Come Lord Jesus!

[okcitykid]

Thanks for your information - we don't completly agree but I will keep my eyes open.

I do have a concern though, if we believe that Jesus is going to come and fix everything then we may not be to concerned about the damage we do to our earth.

Though I do hope he does come, but I'm really not sure we can fix the damage we have done, but we should try, I think Jesus would want us to make the effort.



Hope your new is better than your last year - Thanks - Roger

[NonTrinitarian]

I do have a concern though, if we believe that Jesus is going to come and fix everything then we may not be to concerned about the damage we do to our earth.

Though I do hope he does come, but I'm really not sure we can fix the damage we have done, but we should try, I think Jesus would want us to make the effort.


Many Evangelist appear to care less about the earth because they think God will destroy the earth and they will go to heaven. But JW's are very concientious about taking care of the earth. Mainly because if we don't, well, it may not be well accepted by our Lord.

He will "bring to ruin those ruining the Earth."- Revelation 11:18

So the rainforest killers and polluters will have to answer for their actions. This earth belongs to God, not man.

[Krusader]

Many Evangelist appear to care less about the earth because they think God will destroy the earth and they will go to heaven. But JW's are very concientious about taking care of the earth. Mainly because if we don't, well, it may not be well accepted by our Lord.

He will "bring to ruin those ruining the Earth."- Revelation 11:18

So the rainforest killers and polluters will have to answer for their actions. This earth belongs to God, not man.

Which is why the JW elder is dumping his garbage on the property line of my Christian friend. Real tree huggers down at the hall!

[NonTrinitarian]

Which is why the JW elder is dumping his garbage on the property line of my Christian friend. Real tree huggers down at the hall!

Another brilliant comment from Crusdaer (and also an unsubtantiated one). Of course, HER religion has no hypocrites.

Based on past dealings with you, If you said Jehovah was God I would question it.

[Krusader]

Another brilliant comment from Crusdaer (and also an unsubtantiated one). Of course, HER religion has no hypocrites.

Based on past dealings with you, If you said Jehovah was God I would question it.

Jehovah of the Watchtower is not God. Your Jehovah is a limited, non-omnipresent deity who must keep track of things through angelic beings. He also is limited by geographical areas, actually sitting on a throne in a confined area of heaven - this per two JWs who visited recently.

[NonTrinitarian]

Jehovah of the Watchtower is not God. Your Jehovah is a limited, non-omnipresent deity who must keep track of things through angelic beings. He also is limited by geographical areas, actually sitting on a throne in a confined area of heaven - this per two JWs who visited recently.

"Christ entered... into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us."

I guess it depends on what you mean by "omni-present". If two JW's told you that God needed angels to tell him what's going on, then they are wrong. Though I suspect no such thing was really said. No publication by us said such a thing to my knowledge. In fact, our publications say over and over how JEHOVAH sees everything we do. They have never said "Jehovah's angels are watching you and they go and report what you have done to Jehovah."

You have drawn a line in the sand of semantics. What does your "omni-present" God do that mine cannot? Answer that and it might clarify what we are disagreeing on.

[Krusader]

"Christ entered... into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us."

I guess it depends on what you mean by "omni-present". If two JW's told you that God needed angels to tell him what's going on, then they are wrong. Though I suspect no such thing was really said. No publication by us said such a thing to my knowledge. In fact, our publications say over and over how JEHOVAH sees everything we do. They have never said "Jehovah's angels are watching you and they go and report what you have done to Jehovah."

You have drawn a line in the sand of semantics. What does your "omni-present" God do that mine cannot? Answer that and it might clarify what we are disagreeing on.

Since the Society limited the Holy Spirit to some kind of "active force," and also teaches that the Watchtower Jehovah is not omnipresent, JW literature has resorted to angelic messengers as the method used by the Watchtower deity to stay in touch with his creation. Consider, for instance, Franz's courtroom testimony that angels transmit information from Jehovah to the brethren at Brooklyn. Also, see the 1936 WT book, "Riches," which states that the Protestants are controlled by Catholics, while the Watchtower receives its direction from angelic beings.

Also, see the following link:

http://www.jwfiles.com/rutherford.htm

[NonTrinitarian]

Since the Society limited the Holy Spirit to some kind of "active force," and also teaches that the Watchtower Jehovah is not omnipresent, JW literature has resorted to angelic messengers as the method used by the Watchtower deity to stay in touch with his creation. Consider, for instance, Franz's courtroom testimony that angels transmit information from Jehovah to the brethren at Brooklyn.

Also, see the following link:

http://www.jwfiles.com/rutherford.htm

Eh, are you denying the scores of times Jehovah sent word to his people through an angel, as is so often documented in the Bible? Take a look at Daniel chapter 10 where Daniel had to wait three weeks for an angel to get to him. Was Jehovah omnipresent next to Daniel, just standing there calling this angel to come deliver his message and then summoning Michael to come help the angel against a demon angel while Jehovah stood right next to Daniel?

And, You still didn't answer my question. What can your suppossedly omni-present God do that mine cannot?

[Krusader]

Eh, are you denying the scores of times Jehovah sent word to his people through an angel, as is so often documented in the Bible? Take a look at Daniel chapter 10 where Daniel had to wait three weeks for an angel to get to him. Was Jehovah omnipresent next to Daniel, just standing there calling this angel to come deliver his message and then summoning Michael to come help the angel against a demon angel while Jehovah stood right next to Daniel?

And, You still didn't answer my question. What can your suppossedly omni-present God do that mine cannot?

God sent word to His people when the Spirit was not yet given. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit (a personal being) was sent to guide the Church. In fact, Jesus promised that it would be the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, who would lead us into all truth, not angels.

The Watchtower has demoted the Holy Spirit (they never use capitol letters) to a force, much like Starwars. So, you get a Starwars theology!

[NonTrinitarian]

God sent word to His people when the Spirit was not yet given. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit (a personal being) was sent to guide the Church. In fact, Jesus promised that it would be the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, who would lead us into all truth, not angels.

The Watchtower has demoted the Holy Spirit (they never use capitol letters) to a force, much like Starwars. So, you get a Starwars theology!

Ever heard of the book of Revelation? Start at chapter 1 verse 1.

And once again, even though I know you won't answer it because you can't.

What can your suppossed omni-present God do that my God cannot? You said I lowered my God. So put up proof or shut up.

[Krusader]

Ever heard of the book of Revelation? Start at chapter 1 verse 1.

And once again, even though I know you won't answer it because you can't.

What can your suppossed omni-present God do that my God cannot? You said I lowered my God. So put up proof or shut up.

Telling people to "shut up," is probably contrary to TWEB standards. Your Watchtower God is not omnipresent - you have another god. If you think I'm wrong, check with your elders down at the hall.

[NonTrinitarian]

Telling people to "shut up," is probably contrary to TWEB standards. Your Watchtower God is not omnipresent - you have another god. If you think I'm wrong, check with your elders down at the hall.

Then report me, cry baby. I don't have to check with the elders because I already know God is not omni-present in the way you say he is. Though I can say that God sees all and knows all.

So eh, why won't you answer the question about what your suppossedly omni-present God can do that my God cannot?

I'll tell you why. Because omni-present is a play on words and doesn't mean jack. If my God can see all, hear all and know all, what makes your God superior to my God?

[Krusader]

Then report me, cry baby. I don't have to check with the elders because I already know God is not omni-present in the way you say he is. Though I can say that God sees all and knows all.

So eh, why won't you answer the question about what your suppossedly omni-present God can do that my God cannot?

I'll tell you why. Because omni-present is a play on words and doesn't mean jack. If my God can see all, hear all and know all, what makes your God superior to my God?

Oh, I won't report you, I just thought you weren't aware of the rules. In any case, "what can my God do that your god cannot do?" He can save me, regenerate me (new birth), fill me with His Holy Spirit, and take me to heaven when I die. None of which your god can do for you.

[NonTrinitarian]

Oh, I won't report you, I just thought you weren't aware of the rules. In any case, "what can my God do that your god cannot do?" He can save me, regenerate me (new birth), fill me with His Holy Spirit, and take me to heaven when I die. None of which your god can do for you.

This is why I don't like to waste much time on you. You run away from everything. None of those items have anything to do with omni-presence.

I can hereby declare victory that your suppossedly omni-present God (whatever that means) does not have anymore ability than my God of whom I say is not omni-present. Thus, you have no argument. At least, you have yet to tell me how I have lowered God by saying he is not omni-present. Apparently his suppossed omni-presence doesn't mean squat because you cannot name one thing it does for him that I say he can't already do and not be omni-present.

adios

[Krusader]

This is why I don't like to waste much time on you. You run away from everything. None of those items have anything to do with omni-presence.

I can hereby declare victory that your suppossedly omni-present God (whatever that means) does not have anymore ability than my God of whom I say is not omni-present. Thus, you have no argument. At least, you have yet to tell me how I have lowered God by saying he is not omni-present. Apparently his suppossed omni-presence doesn't mean squat because you cannot name one thing it does for him that I say he can't already do and not be omni-present.

adios

Okay, how does your non-omnipresent deity hear your prayers? Does he rely on angels? Does he transmit them to himself by a non-personal force, such as electricity.

Your society has created a god in its own image. In fact, the Society usurps their god's authority, claiming to be the wellspring of truth (and as we've pointed out ad nauseum, its false prophecies say otherwise).

[NonTrinitarian]

Okay, how does your non-omnipresent deity hear your prayers? Does he rely on angels? Does he transmit them to himself by a non-personal force, such as electricity.

God is the hearer of prayers. No, angels don't transmit them.

Let me ask you this. Do you think radio waves are electricity flying through the air? (KNowing you you probably do:teeth: ) You tell me how God hears prayer. Even if he IS OMNIPRESENT and IS right next to me, how does he read my mind? How does the thought produced by electrico-chemical processes in my brain get to him? Answer your own question and if it makes any type of reasonable sense, that will be my answer.

Your society has created a god in its own image. In fact, the Society usurps their god's authority, claiming to be the wellspring of truth (and as we've pointed out ad nauseum, its false prophecies say otherwise).

This has nothing to do with omni-presence and it's pretty obvious you are so uncomfortable about the position you are in right now in regards to defeding your accusation that I have somehow lowered God that you must attempt to divert the attention to some other subject.

[Krusader]

God is the hearer of prayers. No, angels don't transmit them.

Let me ask you this. Do you think radio waves are electricity flying through the air? (KNowing you you probably do:teeth: ) You tell me how God hears prayer. Even if he IS OMNIPRESENT and IS right next to me, how does he read my mind? How does the thought produced by electrico-chemical processes in my brain get to him? Answer your own question and if it makes any type of reasonable sense, that will be my answer.



This has nothing to do with omni-presence and it's pretty obvious you are so uncomfortable about the position you are in right now in regards to defeding your accusation that I have somehow lowered God that you must attempt to divert the attention to some other subject.

As a Christian, I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Third member of the Godhead, who is always with me - that's how my prayers are heard. You only have a light-bulb spirit who can't do much for you at all. You have a real problem with debating people - take a break and cool off. Ad hom attacks don't anwer questions. For instance, are you born-again, and if not, why not?

[NonTrinitarian]

As a Christian, I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the Third member of the Godhead, who is always with me - that's how my prayers are heard. You only have a light-bulb spirit who can't do much for you at all. You have a real problem with debating people - take a break and cool off. Ad hom attacks don't anwer questions. For instance, are you born-again, and if not, why not?

Apparently ad-hom attacks aren't the only things that don't answer questions.
Are you able to answer any question? How does this third person of God read your mind? How does it understand the electro-chemical process that formulates your thought? Is your God so weak that he can't do that unless he is right there inside you? Goodness, even man is able to know the thought of each other thousands of miles away. Apparently your God is not as smart as man. Is your God divided? You answer me how the person of the Holy Spirit can be in you and in Sparko at the same time and I will tell you how God can hear my prayers while not literally living inside me. No wonder aetheists exist. People see these idiotic statements and go "zheesh!"

And I'm not changing the subject to born again. It's just an attempt to run away from your weak God who apparently doesn't have abilities anywhere near comparable to mankind, who is able to see and hear things from anywhere on earth to anywhere else on earth.

[Krusader]

Apparently ad-hom attacks aren't the only things that don't answer questions.
Are you able to answer any question? How does this third person of God read your mind? How does it understand the electro-chemical process that formulates your thought? Is your God so weak that he can't do that unless he is right there inside you? Goodness, even man is able to know the thought of each other thousands of miles away. Apparently your God is not as smart as man. Is your God divided? You answer me how the person of the Holy Spirit can be in you and in Sparko at the same time and I will tell you how God can hear my prayers while not literally living inside me. No wonder aetheists exist. People see these idiotic statements and go "zheesh!"

And I'm not changing the subject to born again. It's just an attempt to run away from your weak God who apparently doesn't have abilities anywhere near comparable to mankind, who is able to see and hear things from anywhere on earth to anywhere else on earth.

Unfortunately for you, spiritual matters are discerned by those who are spiritual (born-again), that is why I raised the issue.

The Holy Spirit can indwell both Sparko and me simultaneously because our God is not limited by time and space but is omnipresent, and also omniscient, which Jehovah of the Watchtower apparently is not since he's always passing along false info to the supposed "anointed." Like, 1925, 1975, etc. (Or, maybe that info was passed along by fallen angelic spirits, which is most likely).

[NonTrinitarian]

Unfortunately for you, spiritual matters are discerned by those who are spiritual (born-again), that is why I raised the issue.

The Holy Spirit can indwell both Sparko and me simultaneously because our God is not limited by time and space but is omnipresent, and also omniscient, which Jehovah of the Watchtower apparently is not since he's always passing along false info to the supposed "anointed." Like, 1925, 1975, etc. (Or, maybe that info was passed along by fallen angelic spirits, which is most likely).

It's obvious your omnipresent god doesn't have any special ability that allows him to do something mine cannot which means omnipresence is not real. You have yet to state one advantage your make believe God has over mine, whose throne is in the heavens. And I have Bible verses to back that up.

[Krusader]

It's obvious your omnipresent god doesn't have any special ability that allows him to do something mine cannot which means omnipresence is not real. You have yet to state one advantage your make believe God has over mine, whose throne is in the heavens. And I have Bible verses to back that up.

Well at least we've established that we are talking about two different deities: 1) the Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent God of Scripture, and 2) the non-omniscient, non-omnipresent and thus, non-omnipotent, god of the Watchtower you incorrectly call Jehovah.

The Scriptural God can indwell believers. The Watchtower deity does not. The advantage of being indwelt by God can be summed up in one word: relationship. Your relationship, on the other hand, is with an organization which claims to speak for the Watchtower deity, but presents no evidence to back that claim up.

[NonTrinitarian]

Well at least we've established that we are talking about two different deities: 1) the Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent God of Scripture, and 2) the non-omniscient, non-omnipresent and thus, non-omnipotent, god of the Watchtower you incorrectly call Jehovah.

The Scriptural God can indwell believers. The Watchtower deity does not. The advantage of being indwelt by God can be summed up in one word: relationship. Your relationship, on the other hand, is with an organization which claims to speak for the Watchtower deity, but presents no evidence to back that claim up.

blah blah blah:ahem:

[Krusader]

blah blah blah:ahem:

And what college did you graduate from - superb vocabulary!

[okcitykid]

" He will "bring to ruin those ruining the Earth."- Revelation 11:18 "


Revelation 11:18 (NIV) The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

THANK YOU

I've read revelations a dozen times and I must have read right over it each time. This is very important to me. I'm having a discussion with someone else on this same subject and he would certainly appreceit this bit of scripture.

No wonder I liked the Watchtower and no wonder it often ran earth friendly articles.

Pat Robertson and his group are going to build a theme park in the holy land.

People in that part of the world are going hungry and we're going to build a theme park, equivalent to giving the Palistinians the finger, this will create more violence, might have to send in U.S. troops to protect Pat Roberston's interests and more people will die.

Matthew 21:12 (New International Version)



Jesus at the Temple


12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.


Thank you for discussing this with me, now I really want to beleive that Jesus is returning, I'll look into this further.

[NonTrinitarian]

Thank you for discussing this with me, now I really want to beleive that Jesus is returning, I'll look into this further.

You're welcome. I can only imagine what life will be like when he does return. Imgaine the whole Earth being a paradise!

Best regards.

[Krusader]

[QUOTE=okcitykid



Thank you for discussing this with me, now I really want to beleive that Jesus is returning, I'll look into this further.[/QUOTE]

If you really want to believe that Jesus is returning, then don't join up with the Watchtower, because they do not believe in any future return of Jesus. According to the Society, He came invisibly in 1914, and we all missed him but the Russellites.

[NonTrinitarian]

If you really want to believe that Jesus is returning, then don't join up with the Watchtower, because they do not believe in any future return of Jesus. According to the Society, He came invisibly in 1914, and we all missed him but the Russellites.

He already knows what kind of person you are so lies (oops, I mean, incorrect information) like this won't work.

Come Lord Jesus.

[Krusader]

He already knows what kind of person you are so lies (oops, I mean, incorrect information) like this won't work.

Come Lord Jesus.

Excuse me, NT, but aren't you aware that the WT teaches that Jesus returned in 1914? From what you've posted elsewhere, I believe you are not.